U.S. Attack -- More Updates

I'm trying to get stuff together, and post an update: The Pentagon, which evidently has partly collapsed with a chasm 200-300 feet across, and fires on six stories, has ordered the USS JFK and George Washington into NYC. PLEASE GIVE BLOOD. Over 200 firemen are reported missing, and reports of 50,000 dead in the WTC collapse are being bandied about. Dick Cheney has assumed control of the White House, and is in the situation room there. GWB is not returning to the White House until things have calmed down -- and has gone evidently to an undisclosed location. The [CDC] in Atlanta has largely evacuated but has activated their bioterrorism units. American Airlines flight 11, the first to crash into the WTC, was going from BOS -> LAX. There are rumors of Akamai's founder being onboard on Flight 11, As well, the rumor is that the pilot of United Flight 193 flew it in into the ground, outside Pittsburgh, rather then fly into the USX building, which if true, makes him a better person then I -- but there are also rumors that it was shot down by a F-16. United Flight 175 also crashed into the WTC, according to Boston.com, and originated from Boston -- so the WTC was both Boston flights. Reports of a car bomb that was supposed to have gone off int front the State Department have been denied. In a statement, the Taliban government of Afghanistan has denied any involvement, and Yassar Arafat has denounced the attack. Remember: No one knows who did this yet, so don't make any assumptions -- remember what people first thought about the OKC attack. In other news, the US - Mexico/Canada borders are being heavily screened; all air traffic has been grounded; nationwide federal buildings are being evacuated; NATO personnel in Brussells have been sent home, Israeli embassies worldwide have been evacuated, all U.S. Disney parks shut down; major parts of European cities, Britain in particular, are being shut down; stock trading is shut down in all major European and American exchanges. There are 50 flights still in the air, with 2 international flights that have yet to respond. F16s from the US Air Force has been instructed to shoot down flights in a no fly zone over NYC & DC - an AVI of the WTC plane or mpeg here. More as we know.Update: 09/11 18:10 PM GMT by H :I've heard on NPR that all flights and planes are now accounted for -- but that a fifth crash has occurred in an undisclosed location. As well, a car bomb did go off in front of the State Department, and there was a crash near Camp David. There's a well done timeline - we also had a report from someone who lives 3 miles away from the PA crash. Evidently the plane veered several times, and then smashed into an abandoned strip mine - which was luckily not near any people or anything.

Comments

Plea for peace

[m2]

FWIW, I'm not a citizen of the U.S. nor do I live there.

Violence induces more violence. Retaliation will only lead to more deaths. If you are a citizen of the U.S. of America, please write your representative right now and ask him to join a plea for peace. Historically the U.S. reaction to this kind of attack is to counter strike. It's highly probably that it's already being planned or even carried on. That will solve nothing. You might get even, but that achieves nothing. The death will not come back and the attack has been already recorded on the books of history. At this point in time, counter attacking is irrational and puts not only the lives of U.S. citizens at risk, but those of lots of people all arround the world, too.

Re:Plea for peace

[FFFish]

Correction: at least 20 000 of you *are not still here.* They died in the attack.

Correction: you don't have peace or security. You just got attacked.

Correction: those responsible are dead. They died attacking.

Correction: there is NO justice possible in this situation. Nor is peace possible.

There has to be retaliation for this, without a doubt. But it will not resolve the problem.

You might also want to think about why this attack occurred. How did the USA get into a position where someone hates it *so* much that they'd suicide themselves in revenge?

Re:Plea for peace

[Chris Johnson]

"You might also want to think about why this attack occurred. How did the USA get into a position where someone hates it *so* much that they'd suicide themselves in revenge?"

We need to be able to think of that _while_ also retaliating harshly.

The fact that we have been brutally attacked does not make us automatically righteous. I've felt for a long time that US interests, in many ways, have been waging war on the rest of the world- but more like a siege. Mostly we have not been gunning people down- mostly our corporations have not been gunning people down- and we certainly haven't engaged in this sort of all-out assault recently.

We're up again, and clearly we're going to be smashing the hell out of _somebody_... but we have got to take a minute afterwards, to ask: just how unprovoked was it? What have we been doing? Are we even aware of what our country may have been doing in our names? If more than half of us don't even _vote_ much less pay attention to what our country is doing with its massive weaponry and economic coercion, is that okay?

It looks like we've got to smash somebody. In fact, it looks like the people we'll be hitting are fanatics. The fact that they are fanatics does not make us angels, and we gotta remain aware of that as we move into a 21st century and see multinational organizations taking over from nation-states.

And boy, are we ever in the 21st century. :(

Re:Plea for peace

[issachar]

Peace and compromise are not always the best way to go. Neville Chamberlain declared peace in our time after speaking with Hitler, and then the second world war happened. Compromise was definately not the best option in that case.

Neither is compromise the best option now. The United States should do it's best to identify the larger supporting organisations, and strike them so that the are unable to do this again. (We can't make them not want to do it again). This will involve killing many people, and it will involve collateral damage to civilians and loss of life for US military personel. That is unfortunate, but it should still be done.

The Canadian response, (I am a Canadian), should be to support the US in whatever action it takes. No more fence sitting. These are our friends and neighbours and they need our support.

Re:Plea for peace

[Malcontent]

"It looks like we've got to smash somebody. In fact, it looks like the people we'll be hitting are fanatics."

I remember when OKC happened Rush LImbaugh started calling for bombing of "whoever is responsible". Once we found that it was an American and that bombing "whoever is responsible" meant bombing Michigan Rush shut up. I guess killing innocent people is much more palatable in Iran or Iraq then Michigan.
In the end our tendency to look at Arab and Muslim life as basically worthless will determine the scope of the attack. Not the desire to punish the people who are actually guilty. My guess is many many innocent people will die as a result of our retaliation which will make us exactly like the monsters who committed these crimes.

Re:Plea for peace

[Ian Wolf]

You have got to be a complete idiot.

the target does not have to be absolutely accurate. scorching afghanistan and removing it from the map will remove nearly all of bin laden's ground troops and all of his civilian support. it may even make him a target from his own people.

Do you honestly think the people of afghanistan have any clue? Sure, some do, especially within the ruling Taliban government. BUT, many people in afghanistan are not a party to the Taliban. A many people in that nation have taken up arms against the Taliban. Some of them have not forgotten that many Americans and Brits fought alongside them against the Soviets.

Besides, Bin Laden isn't even an afghani, he's a Saudi and his supporters are scattered all over the world. By your grand scheme, we would have to Nuke Iran, Sudan, Yemen, and large portions of Ethiopia, Somalia, and countless other nations.

if you commit a terrorist act, or you know someone that commits or is planning a terrorist act against this country -- you should die. the trickle down effect of this will rid the world of this plague.

OR, you mobilize a couple billion Muslims against you. You kill one innocent, and their family is more likely to become a supporter of Bin Laden then the people who killed their loved one. The more you kill the more you drive into the arms of your enemy. If you don't believe me open any history book. One only needs to look at the numerous examples out there. The rise of Christianity in Ancient Rome, the aforementioned invasion of Afghanistan by the Soviets, the fall of the Khmer Rouge as well as any other Despotic system.

Re:Remember the past

[scanrate]

"I fear all we have done is to wake a sleeping giant, and fill him with a terrible resolve."

Japanese Admiral Yamamoto
After attack on Pearl Harbor
Quoted from http://www.nps.gov/fdrm/generation/ph.htm

Facial recognition software, anyone?

[osgeek]

It's pretty easy for us on /. to decry law enforcement aids like facial recognition hardware and software when times are good. However, it's at times of senseless tragedy like this when we really need to stop and think about letting law enforcement have the tools they need to prevent wanton acts of distruction like this.

Abuses of those tools should be another discussion entirely -- an important discussion, but not a paranoid paralyzing one.

I'm usually fairly detached during times like this, but by myself, watching the coverage, and imagining the enormity of the loss of life, mental health, peace, property, and productivity -- I couldn't help but cry in frustration at not being able to do anything.

I'm sure I wasn't the only one. To those of you who felt likewise, don't forget that feeling. When the time comes when you're able to voice your support for tools and methods to stop these methods of terrorism, don't be silent.

An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind

[Anonymous Coward]

"An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind" - Ghandi

Are more dead people the answer here? Take a minute to think before screaming for vengence.

This is where brains come in

[MarkusQ]

To summarize:

Counter attacking is not a good solution, for several reasons. 1) We do not know who to blame, and blind lynching leads to many problems, 2) even if we did know who to blame, counter attacking stands a good chance of angering others, and perpetuating the cycle, 3) even if we knew which nation to attack, and could get away with it, it is still wrong to kill people for the actions of others--we would be no better than the terrorists.

On the other hand, doing nothing is likewise unacceptable. It will send the message that these actions can be taken with impunity, and likely lead to further assaults. Failing to stand up for yourself is the best way to become a victim.

So, logically, we need to do something that is not a counter attack.

This is where brains come in. What can we do that will reduce or eliminate this kind of threat but isn't a blind reprisal? That is the question we should be turning our brains to.

-- MarkusQ

NYC Blood Donor Info--PLEASE MOD UP

[remande]

I got these in a search for NYC blood banks and centers via www.bigyellow.com. I cannot confirm that these are blood donor centers, nor can I contact the Red Cross 800 number (both the phone line and the Web page are slashdotted).

If you are in NYC and looking to donate blood, I would consider physically going to the site rather than using the phone. I am not in the city; those there should decide for themselves whether the transportation system or the phone lines are clogged up worse.

American Red Cross - Family Respite Center
4 East 28th Street, New York, NY 10016
(212) 213-0755

American Red Cross
150 Amsterdam Avenue, New York, NY 10023
(212) 580-2821

International Committee of the Red Cross
801 2nd Avenue, New York, NY 10017
(212) 599-6021

International Federation of Red Cross
800 2nd Avenue, New York, NY 10017
(212) 338-0161

Also, if you are in the NYC area, consider seeing if these Red Cross chapters or anyone providing relief efforts to see if they need unskilled volunteers--setting up tents, manning the food lines, etc. See your local place of worship, regardless of your religious persuasions--many of them may be providing relief efforts.

Terrorists want Retaliation

[Arkaein]

There's been a lot of posts talking about how we need to strike back, and hard. I hope everyone here realizes that's what the terrorists want.

Terrorism is not about strategy or tacticts, these acts were not battles in a war. they served no strategic or tactical purpose, the group that perpetrated these acts is not going to move in and conquer, or anything like that. The purpose of terrorism is to generate fear and political tension.

All this commotion the politicians are making is exactly what the terrorists wanted. They have succeeded in the first steps of disrupting American lifestyle. By making huge reactions we're fulfilling the terrorists goals.

What we need to do is first keep calm and tend to our victims. Second we need to take a few days (at least) to cool off and evaluate ways we can improve security and information access (why was it so hard to figure out which planes crashed? can't we keep track of where a plane is in the air?). Finally, and most difficult, we need to figure how to go back about our lives. We need to show that terrorism is an impotent tool.

Re:WAR!

[Mr.Phil]

Religion is NOT the cause of this crime. The criminals that did this have TWISTED thier religion to pretend that this is a Holy War.

Islam, at it's heart, is about peace. The killing of innocents is abhorent to Allah (God).

WILL EVERYBODY STOP WITH THE TURBAN THING?

[remande]

The above and a slew of other posts assume that this is some form of Islamic attack, likely under Bin Laden. I have heard no evidence to this effect. One terrorist group was supposed to have claimed responsibility; my understanding is that this was a false report.

It could be Muslims. It could be Christians. It could be Athiests, (White|Black|Yellow|Red|Purple) supremacists, anarchists, fascists, disgruntled pilots, almost anybody. I am not blaming any of the above groups; I am demonstrating that we just don't know.

Here's what we do know. This was a group of people (at least four, one for each aircraft) rather than one person. Those who carried out the plan (rather than any possible planners we don't see yet) were willing to die for this. They were trained for this mission (highjacking an aircraft is not an easy job today, and the fact that we have heard of no failed hijacking attempts today implies that all attempts were successful; we didn't have four successes in sixteen attempts or whatever). This implies premeditation and weeks of planning. Note that this also implies that the act was not a Columbine-type killing. The rash of Columbine events in the past few years show a lot of premeditation, but not the level of skill needed to hijack an aircraft.

Going from here to the conclusion that it must be some turban-wearing, gun-toting radical Islamic militants is a huge leap to a conclusion, and symptomatic of some deep seated hatred.

Let's not try to pin this on somebody until we get some more facts.

On another note..

[SideshowBob]

I personally am mildly disgusted by some of the mainstream media coverage I've seen of the aftermath. I really hate when obnoxious camera crews stick cameras in the faces of obviously traumatized survivors and ask inane questions like 'were you scared?', 'did you see anyone die?', or 'does this make you angry?'

Sheesh, I wish the media would a) let these people have some dignity, and b) quit asking so many stupid Sally Jessy-esque questions.

Re:But it *doesn't* solve things

[Simon Brooke]

[disclaimer: I'm Scots, posting from Scotland]

The only difference was that Bomber Harris had access to a much greater array of weaponry than the terrorists who attacked today.

What's scary about this is that the perpetrators did not need access to a 'greater array of weaponry'. While the US President commits huge sums of money, and breaches solemn international treaty obligations, to develop missile defence, the perpetrators were able to use fifty tons of aviation fuel that they didn't even have to pay for. Who needs a suitcase bomb, when you've got domestic aircraft?

This was a superbly well organised and executed operation on the part of the perpetrators, whoever they were, but it was also an incredibly cheap one. I should be surprised if the whole budget for the operation exceeded $100,000.

So what can a government do in response to this? It's easy (and depressing) to predict what Dubya will do - just what so many here are urging him to do. And it's easy to see exactly why it will be counter productive. If the US Government lauches its predictable 'massive strike' against the assumed perpetrators, there will inevitably be enough 'colateral damage' to radicalise a whole new population of people who don't yet hate the US that much. And they'll get together and launch more strikes like todays, because (if you are sufficiently organised, disciplined, ruthless and security conscious) strikes like todays are cheap to mount out of all proportion to the damage they cause.

The US cannot run. It cannot hide. It cannot - ever - protect itself against this sort of thing. It has thousands of miles of coastline, thousands of miles of borders, which it can never effectively monitor. Today shows that wannabe terrorists don't have to smuggle in large quantities of explosives.

For the US as for the rest of the democracies of the world, the only solution to this problem is not to be hated that much. And the only way to not be hated that much is to not act unreasonably. Which means - among other things - that the response to today's event must be strictly limited to individuals who are provably in the direct chain of command to today's event - and not thousands of civilians who just happen to live in the same town.

Re:Predictions

[locust]

Watching the news, all of the stations, particularly the military correspondents (Gen. Schwarzkopf included) talked about the complete failure of our intelligence community to provide us with any warning about this attack. Reporters asking "how could such a thing have happened with no warning," "haven't we infiltrated these groups," "how can you maintain secrecy on something this widespread," etc.

A co-worker and I did the math on this. You need a minum of 4 people, 8 for better success. They have to coordinate... But: If they are people working at air ports (in bagadge handling or cleaning) they can get a weapon(s) on a plane. Security at US airports isn't exactly tight. Then you need someone who can fly an aircraft enough to steer, not take it off or land it. After take off, the armed party goes to the front bathroom, slips into the cockpit kills both pilots, and locks the door (or there is another person there for crowd control). You need one, but more likely two people per plane. In a country of 300 million, with our freedoms you have to look out for 8 guys.

--
locust

Loss of Life and Perspective

[virg_mattes]

> This is an act of war against the United States.

No, it's not. It's an act of terrorism. There's an enormous difference, a lesson that Vietnam taught us, and that you've apparently forgotten.

> Peace did not stop Hitler; peace did not stop the Axis Powers.

This would be a great analogy if it was accurate, but it isn't. Nations cannot operate without infrastructure, but most terrorist organizations can. You're fighting a different animal, and the weapon that's most effective against one can be entirely ineffective against the other. Think of trying to use an elephant gun (good against elephants, naturally) to kill a swarm of bees, and you'll get the idea.

> If viable proof of guilt of Osama bin Laden is brought forth,
> and the Taliban refuses to turn him over to the United States, then
> they are an accomplice to an act of war and should be dealt with
> appropriately.

What if they aren't really harboring him? Or what if they are? What would be an appropriate response to that? Invasion? Do you really think that the rest of the world will stand idly by and watch us annex Afghanistan? Do you really think that this incident warrants a war against Iran and Iraq? How about Russia? How about China? Both world wars started over annexations of territory, and in both wars nations with no initial stake were eventually pulled in (like the U.S. in WWI, which we entered because of our alliance with Britain and France). The number of Americans that would die in World War III would eclipse the deaths today within weeks.

> There must be a message sent to the world that terrorist actions
> against the United States will be met with such an incredible and
> unimaginably horrific response, than no one sane, fanatical, insane,
> or otherwise would even conceive of the idea.

Get your temper back in check and read that again. Sane people don't use terrorism, and fanaticals and the insane don't care about consequences. So, our "horrific response" will only serve to turn the collateral damage victims into more enemies.

> It is time to obliterate those who would cause this to happen
> using every means at our disposal, including the most destructive
> and horrific weapons ever developed by man. If some civilians die
> along the way, they are unfortunate casualties of war.

It is almost astonishing that your comment reflects very closely the words used by Timothy McVeigh in describing his destruction of the Murrah building. But then, it's not that astonishing after all, in that you're advocating the same sort of terrorism as he was ("if the (fill-in-the-blank) government is going to protect people who commit crimes against the (fill-in-the-blank) people, then I'm justified in killing them and anyone else who happens to get in the way, and I'll call them "unfortunate casualties of war" because it soothes my sense of justice and makes my position less abhorrent").

Until you (and many more like you) realize that fighting terrorism isn't just about brute force, we as a nation are destined to suffer from more of these attacks. Fighting terrorism is a high art form, and it can be done with a high degree of success, but it's never perfect, and it's never about simple military might. Read more about counter-terrorism, and you'll be surprised (and educated) by what you find.

Virg

Re:Remember the past

[SubtleNuance]

To promise retaliation is not hubris, it's apporpriate.

no, its childish and immature - to retaliate, to lash out wildly is idiotic.

Re:Three Step Loop: ID, Locate, Eradicate

[JWhitlock]

The time for peace is over. We must identify who did this, find out where they are, go in after them, and wipe them off the face of the Earth. We will suffer more casualties doing it this way. Too bad. The death toll is going to exceed Pearl Harbor and approach if not exceed use of a tactical nuke. We are at war.

This is not state-based terrorism. This is a small group of fanatics. Your stupid, stupid tactic would make it a war.

Terrorism is cyclical, not a three step process. You are attacked, you get angry, you retaliate. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.

Look at Ireland, the Middle East, etc. Do you want our grandchildren to still be fighting the same damn "war"?

We wait. We continue to work. We find the black boxes, the voice recorders, we investigate. Those that did it are on the run. They are in hiding, and think we don't know where they are. Let they sweat a little. When we have the evidence, when the world knows, then we act. Maybe not even violently - put them in front of the same court as Millosevich, make them stand trial.

Above all, we show that we are rational humans, and not dogs that bite because we were bit.