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U.S. Attack -- More Updates
I'm trying to get stuff together, and post an update: The Pentagon, which evidently has partly collapsed with a chasm 200-300 feet across, and fires on six
stories, has ordered the USS JFK and George Washington into NYC. PLEASE GIVE BLOOD. Over 200 firemen are reported missing, and
reports of 50,000 dead in the WTC collapse are being bandied about. Dick Cheney has assumed control of the White House, and is in the situation room there. GWB is not returning to the White House until things have calmed down -- and has gone evidently to an undisclosed location. The [CDC] in Atlanta has largely evacuated but has activated their bioterrorism
units. American Airlines flight 11, the first to crash into the WTC, was going from BOS -> LAX. There are rumors of Akamai's founder being onboard on Flight 11, As well, the rumor is that the pilot of United Flight 193 flew it in
into the ground, outside Pittsburgh, rather then fly into the USX building, which if true, makes him a better person then I -- but there are also rumors that it was shot down by a F-16. United Flight 175 also crashed into the WTC, according to Boston.com, and originated from Boston -- so the WTC was both Boston
flights. Reports of a car bomb that was supposed to have gone off int front the State Department have been denied. In a statement, the Taliban government of Afghanistan has denied any involvement, and Yassar Arafat has denounced the attack. Remember: No one knows who did this yet, so don't make any assumptions -- remember what people
first thought about the OKC attack. In other news, the US - Mexico/Canada borders are being heavily screened; all air traffic has been grounded; nationwide federal
buildings are being evacuated; NATO personnel in Brussells have been sent home, Israeli embassies worldwide have been evacuated, all U.S. Disney parks shut down;
major parts of European cities, Britain in particular, are being shut down; stock trading is shut down in all major European and American exchanges. There are 50 flights still in the air, with 2
international flights that have yet to respond. F16s from the US Air Force has been instructed to shoot down flights in a no fly zone over NYC & DC - an AVI of the WTC plane or mpeg here.
More as we
know.Update: 09/11 18:10 PM GMT by H :I've heard on NPR that all flights and planes are now accounted for -- but that a fifth crash has occurred in an undisclosed location. As well, a car bomb did go off in front of the State Department, and there was a crash near Camp David. There's a well done timeline - we also had a report from someone who lives 3 miles away from the PA crash. Evidently the plane veered several times, and then smashed into an abandoned strip mine - which was luckily not near any people or anything.
Here are emergency contact numbers for the airlines with planes down.
American Airlines - 800-245-0999
United Airlines - 800-923-8555
Hope this helps
I am me...I think
"No matter how long it may take us to overcome this premeditated invasion, the American people in their righteous might will win though to absolute victory.... ....with confidence in our armed forces - with the unbounding determination of our people - we will gain the inevitable triumph - so help us god."
- President Franklin D Roosevelt
December 8th, 1941
Speaking to the American people after the attack on Pearl Harbor
FWIW, I'm not a citizen of the U.S. nor do I live there.
Violence induces more violence. Retaliation will only lead to more deaths. If you are a citizen of the U.S. of America, please write your representative right now and ask him to join a plea for peace. Historically the U.S. reaction to this kind of attack is to counter strike. It's highly probably that it's already being planned or even carried on. That will solve nothing. You might get even, but that achieves nothing. The death will not come back and the attack has been already recorded on the books of history. At this point in time, counter attacking is irrational and puts not only the lives of U.S. citizens at risk, but those of lots of people all arround the world, too.
Please, no matter where in the country you are - GIVE BLOOD! Blood banks all across the nation will be getting blood and plasma to NY and DC at this time, and we already have a serious shortage nationwide. If you're over 17 years old, 110 lbs, and have no STDs, call 1-800-give-life and find out where you can donate.
Think outside the... Hey, where'd the friggin' box go?
There is a big hole IN the Pentagon where an airplane crashed into it. It is ONLY 5 stories tall (well, there is that *alleged* basement), 5 sides, 5 rings. A 300 foot hole can not swollow the worlds most massive office building.
Plane crashed by the helliport, on the Southwest side. Most reports are that it hit between the E and D rings (outermost ring is E).
Not sure if this was the wedge that is currently under renovation or not.
There are confirmed dead adults in the building. None of the children in the daycare center were harmed. All of the children are accounted for and safe.
Verizon is asking everybody in the DC area to stay off of ANY phone line unless it is an emergency.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Immediate
STATEMENT BY THE PRIME MINISTER
Prime Minister Jean Chrétien expressed his horror at the news that the United States has been the victim of multiple terrorist attacks :
"I was stricken by news and television pictures coming from the United States this morning. It is impossible to fully comprehend the evil that would have conjured up such a cowardly and depraved assault upon thousands of innocent people. There can be no cause or grievance that could ever justify such unspeakable violence. Indeed, such an attack is an assault not only on the targets but an offense against the freedom and rights of all civilized nations.
All Canadians are praying that the brave firefighters and rescue crews who currently on the scene will be successful in limiting the casualties. We stand ready to provide any assistance that our American friends may need at this very, very difficult hour and in the subsequent investigation.
Aline joins me in offering, on behalf of all Canadians, our deepest sympathies to the families of the victims and to the American people.
- 30 -
PMO Press Office: (613) 957-5555
This document is also available on the following Web site:
http://pm.gc.ca
It's pretty easy for us on /. to decry law enforcement aids like facial recognition hardware and software when times are good. However, it's at times of senseless tragedy like this when we really need to stop and think about letting law enforcement have the tools they need to prevent wanton acts of distruction like this.
Abuses of those tools should be another discussion entirely -- an important discussion, but not a paranoid paralyzing one.
I'm usually fairly detached during times like this, but by myself, watching the coverage, and imagining the enormity of the loss of life, mental health, peace, property, and productivity -- I couldn't help but cry in frustration at not being able to do anything.
I'm sure I wasn't the only one. To those of you who felt likewise, don't forget that feeling. When the time comes when you're able to voice your support for tools and methods to stop these methods of terrorism, don't be silent.
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
"An eye for an eye, and the whole world goes blind" - Ghandi
Are more dead people the answer here? Take a minute to think before screaming for vengence.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/mmedia/webcam s/eyeondc.htm - just got the idea to search for webcams and I found this one aimed at the Pentagon. You could probably find many more out there from http://www.webcam-index.com/USA/ or something like this site.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Oh bother.
Counter attacking is not a good solution, for several reasons. 1) We do not know who to blame, and blind lynching leads to many problems, 2) even if we did know who to blame, counter attacking stands a good chance of angering others, and perpetuating the cycle, 3) even if we knew which nation to attack, and could get away with it, it is still wrong to kill people for the actions of others--we would be no better than the terrorists.
On the other hand, doing nothing is likewise unacceptable. It will send the message that these actions can be taken with impunity, and likely lead to further assaults. Failing to stand up for yourself is the best way to become a victim.
So, logically, we need to do something that is not a counter attack.
This is where brains come in. What can we do that will reduce or eliminate this kind of threat but isn't a blind reprisal? That is the question we should be turning our brains to.
-- MarkusQ
Geekoid, please note that you have done your part, two weeks ago. If that pint isn't used in the rescue effort, it may have stood in place of a pint that will be.
Anyone who has not given blood since 7/17/01 is eligible to give blood today (9/11/01). The Red Cross says that they will need donations all through the week. I expect that NYC will go into "Spaghetti surgery" mode and stabilize everybody they can today, then spend the next few days performing more permanent medicine as supplies arrive. Thus, people eligible to donate within the next week are encouraged to do so.
Red Cross Internet: redcross.org (leads you to your local office, has news briefs, and is nearly slashdotted).
Red Cross Bellnet: 800-462-9400
Will someone post NYC donation data here, and someone else mod it up? That should save valuable phone lineage in NYC. I will post donation data if I can find it.
--The basis of all love is respect
The innocent lives lost are tragic and unprecendented (in the US at least--think of Vietnam, Bosnia, WW2, Siege of Leningrad and others). But we reap what our leaders past and present sow. We are a super power and an empire and so draw the wrath of thesoe we hold dominion over. And we are a free society, so hitting us from within is easier than it could be. The Roman Empire faced terroism by the Gauls and other tribes on their borders. If we as a nation, continue to support land theft, assasination and torture in throughout the world in order to maintain our empire (Chile, Vietnam, Agentina, Iran, Israel, and many more: Ask Kissinger/Bush Sr./Rumsfeld for details) then we must expect retribution will at least be attempted. It is sad to see it apparently acheived by somebody with some axe to grind: for they never kill the guilty, but instead destroy the lives of many innocent people for no purpose. They can even come from our own as in McVeigh. Terrorism is a sad, sad tactic for in leaving the guilty unpunished and killing innocents does nothing to help a cause. It jsut makes the world a meaner, less humane place. Funny huamne derives from human and it is humans who are the least humane of all animals.
If you are in NYC and looking to donate blood, I would consider physically going to the site rather than using the phone. I am not in the city; those there should decide for themselves whether the transportation system or the phone lines are clogged up worse.
Also, if you are in the NYC area, consider seeing if these Red Cross chapters or anyone providing relief efforts to see if they need unskilled volunteers--setting up tents, manning the food lines, etc. See your local place of worship, regardless of your religious persuasions--many of them may be providing relief efforts.
--The basis of all love is respect
There's been a lot of posts talking about how we need to strike back, and hard. I hope everyone here realizes that's what the terrorists want.
Terrorism is not about strategy or tacticts, these acts were not battles in a war. they served no strategic or tactical purpose, the group that perpetrated these acts is not going to move in and conquer, or anything like that. The purpose of terrorism is to generate fear and political tension.
All this commotion the politicians are making is exactly what the terrorists wanted. They have succeeded in the first steps of disrupting American lifestyle. By making huge reactions we're fulfilling the terrorists goals.
What we need to do is first keep calm and tend to our victims. Second we need to take a few days (at least) to cool off and evaluate ways we can improve security and information access (why was it so hard to figure out which planes crashed? can't we keep track of where a plane is in the air?). Finally, and most difficult, we need to figure how to go back about our lives. We need to show that terrorism is an impotent tool.
The ultimate plays for Madden 2006
For those in the UK (who may be unable to get through to the US), the UK Foreign office has issued a number: 020 7008 0000.
Religion is NOT the cause of this crime. The criminals that did this have TWISTED thier religion to pretend that this is a Holy War.
Islam, at it's heart, is about peace. The killing of innocents is abhorent to Allah (God).
It could be Muslims. It could be Christians. It could be Athiests, (White|Black|Yellow|Red|Purple) supremacists, anarchists, fascists, disgruntled pilots, almost anybody. I am not blaming any of the above groups; I am demonstrating that we just don't know.
Here's what we do know. This was a group of people (at least four, one for each aircraft) rather than one person. Those who carried out the plan (rather than any possible planners we don't see yet) were willing to die for this. They were trained for this mission (highjacking an aircraft is not an easy job today, and the fact that we have heard of no failed hijacking attempts today implies that all attempts were successful; we didn't have four successes in sixteen attempts or whatever). This implies premeditation and weeks of planning. Note that this also implies that the act was not a Columbine-type killing. The rash of Columbine events in the past few years show a lot of premeditation, but not the level of skill needed to hijack an aircraft.
Going from here to the conclusion that it must be some turban-wearing, gun-toting radical Islamic militants is a huge leap to a conclusion, and symptomatic of some deep seated hatred.
Let's not try to pin this on somebody until we get some more facts.
--The basis of all love is respect
I personally am mildly disgusted by some of the mainstream media coverage I've seen of the aftermath. I really hate when obnoxious camera crews stick cameras in the faces of obviously traumatized survivors and ask inane questions like 'were you scared?', 'did you see anyone die?', or 'does this make you angry?'
Sheesh, I wish the media would a) let these people have some dignity, and b) quit asking so many stupid Sally Jessy-esque questions.
If you're without a radio or TV in your office, try #CNN_Newsfeed on chat.cnn.com. It shows the closed captions for what's currently on-screen on CNN.
I've been getting emails from a friend at Globix, the giant internet exchange in southern Manhattan. Here is the latest news:
Globix is located on Centre Street south of Canal Street. Businesses south of Canal have been asked to evacuate. The dust from the WTC collapse has forced buildings to shut down their air conditioning. Only a few large computer operations can operate without normal air conditioning, but major exchanges, like the AT&T telephone building and Globix, have backup cooling systems that should hopefully operate in these conditions.
Globix engineers are taking care of major service problems and trying to prevent potential major problems so they can leave as soon as possible.
Globix is hooked into the 3 largest backbones that pass through the region, and at least one must still be operating. Email messages originating from Globix are making their way out, but messages sent to Globix are not coming in.
A telephone call to (212-334-xxxx) from NJ (856-672-xxxx) got through, but no calls to the 718 area code are working. I just received a call from a 212 phone as well.
My friend at Globix was walking to a class at Sun Microsystems at the World Trade Center when the first plane hit. His view of the collision was obscured, and he was not injured. He commented:
> I ran down to the woolworth building and stood
> looking in shock at the North tower, the smoke
> billowing out of it and the thousands of papers
> fluttering down against the blue sky. Suddenly
> I saw something hurtling down the side of the
> building. It was a man, limbs, tie and suitcoat
> flailing. several more followed. I turned and
> slowly walked back towars the sunny, newly
> renovated park in front of city hall.
>
> I heard the second explosion hit, and people
> began screaming and running past me.
>
> As I sit here at my comfortable nest of a
> workspace, my skin crawls, and I feel sick to
> my stomach. I have read about events this bad
> or worse a hundred times in the novels my
> father derisively terms storybooks, but the
> reality is completely incomparable. Perhaps he
> had a point.
>
Another friend of mine was in the 70th floor of the second building to get hit, and he made it out alive. I don't yet have the details on that.
Transportation update (from a Brooklyn friend):
Subway lines are running off and on, and bridges and tunnels are closed to cars. The W line was still bringing people into Manhattan at 9:30, but that has ceased. The N/R is now running above 14th Street. Pedestrian traffic is allowed on the Brooklyn Bridge and the Manhattan Bridge. People in suits have been streaming over these bridges into Brooklyn all morning.
Historical Note:
Today, September 11, is the 28th anniversary of the CIA-led coup that overthrew the democratically elected government headed by Allende in Chile. Why is this relevant? I feel an immense amount of anger towards the people who caused this, and I think the people who caused this are the murderers sitting in Washington D.C. who direct U.S. foreign policy. They recklessly inspire anti-U.S. sentiment in every other country in this world. We ruthlessly bombed civilian targets in Yugoslavia (including water purification sites); we starve the children of Iraq; we blockade Cuba for no good reason; we topple democratically elected socialist governments in order to install pro-U.S. dictatorships. My anger does not direct itself solely towards the government officials who have perpetrated these crimes. I am furious at the millions of Americans who voted for George W. Bush. They are responsible for putting into power a person who is walking all over international agreements about global warming and arms control. And anybody who sits by and pays taxes and watches our imperialistic military and State Department do its dirty work has to take some responsibility for these murders. WAKE UP AMERICA: THIS IS YOUR FAULT. No missile defense shield will protect us from the hate that is justifiably spawned worldwide by our pro-corporate foreign policy.
Experience of an anarchist:
When the mail carrier knocked on my door this morning, I was worried that I was about to be taken in by the FBI. If you know what I've been through, you would not think this was a paranoid reaction. There will be a witchhunt following these events, and the U.S. government will probably use it as an excuse to harass activists. Right now the joint anti-terrorism task forces around the country spend most of their money tracking and harassing the anti-corporate activists who have been targeting world financial summits. A good chunk is also spent on the Earth Liberation Front and the Animal Liberation Front, neither of which actually have any members; they are just slogans that autonomous cells apply to their acts of vandalism. Today's events show yet again that money spent on national security does not in fact serve national security, but rather serves the insidious ends of the people controlling this country. Expect there to be calls for more money to fund politically motivated witchhunts against the Left. Expect calls for outlawing consumer use of encryption.
Finally:
Eben Moglen, Columbia University Law Professor and general counsel of the FSF once said about the inevitable rise of encrypted communications:
I don't doubt that there will be downsides. You should accept the truth that harms will be caused, as harms are caused by free speech all the time. But don't let yourself be panicked about this. The world of the twenty-first century will be more free, and will continue to be, as the spooks often say, "a tough neighborhood." Indeed, some bombs will go off; there will be, in Stewart Baker's signature phrase, "some mangled, burnt bodies." You will notice that there are already. But fewer of them will be in Iraqi prisons; none of them will ever again be in a gulag or Lager maintained by a KGB or SS state with a tap on every telephone. And of that you should be very proud, because it is we who will have made it possible.
[disclaimer: I'm Scots, posting from Scotland]
What's scary about this is that the perpetrators did not need access to a 'greater array of weaponry'. While the US President commits huge sums of money, and breaches solemn international treaty obligations, to develop missile defence, the perpetrators were able to use fifty tons of aviation fuel that they didn't even have to pay for. Who needs a suitcase bomb, when you've got domestic aircraft?
This was a superbly well organised and executed operation on the part of the perpetrators, whoever they were, but it was also an incredibly cheap one. I should be surprised if the whole budget for the operation exceeded $100,000.
So what can a government do in response to this? It's easy (and depressing) to predict what Dubya will do - just what so many here are urging him to do. And it's easy to see exactly why it will be counter productive. If the US Government lauches its predictable 'massive strike' against the assumed perpetrators, there will inevitably be enough 'colateral damage' to radicalise a whole new population of people who don't yet hate the US that much. And they'll get together and launch more strikes like todays, because (if you are sufficiently organised, disciplined, ruthless and security conscious) strikes like todays are cheap to mount out of all proportion to the damage they cause.
The US cannot run. It cannot hide. It cannot - ever - protect itself against this sort of thing. It has thousands of miles of coastline, thousands of miles of borders, which it can never effectively monitor. Today shows that wannabe terrorists don't have to smuggle in large quantities of explosives.
For the US as for the rest of the democracies of the world, the only solution to this problem is not to be hated that much. And the only way to not be hated that much is to not act unreasonably. Which means - among other things - that the response to today's event must be strictly limited to individuals who are provably in the direct chain of command to today's event - and not thousands of civilians who just happen to live in the same town.
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
CORRECTION:
There are five confirmed crashes. The "Camp David" one is actually the PA crash; it crashed relatively close to Camp David. The flight number is still unknown.
I've got flight 175 listed twice. I haven't heard confirmation of the rumoured CO crash, so presumably it didn't happen.
All the flights were East Coast take-offs heading for the West Coast. This is not because LA or SF were under threat of attack, as some stations are stupidly reporting, but because these are the flights with the most fuel onboard.
Transalantic flights would have provided even bigger planes and more fuel, but security on them is more stringent than those for domestic flights.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Ok, allow me to stamp this out before it goes much furter. This quote is from this page: http://www.ed.brocku.ca/~nmarshal/nostradamus.htm
As I posted in a similar thread on the earlier story, this is not from Nostradamus, but rather an attempt by the author of the site (who does NOT claim to be psychic) to show how, given a vague "prediction", that something in the future will fit it. Seems to have backfired, tho.
But, I suppose that some people would rather believe it is from Nostadamus, and feel 'eerie' about it, rather than facing the truth, and seeing that it is just a coincidence.
+-- (Score:-1, Moderator on Power Trip)
I just wanted tos ay that I was at the Pentagon this morning, and that everything there seems to be like it's very well under control. There were a bunch of different people there watching the flames be put out - TV stations and such, as well as tourists and residents who, like me, wanted to see what the hell was going on.
:)
Probably the most interesting thing that happened was talking to one of the officers who works at the Pentagon. She told me not to get any nearer (which I declined to listen to) and then said, I don't know if this was a joke or not, that I should try to stay alive so I could serve the country. God save us if we have to go to war!
DC is currently in a state of emergency, and almost all the streets are closed - it's pretty eerie. I walked by the state department, and the whole thing is shut down. There are cops and agents from every sort of government department everywhere - you literally can't go a block without seeing a handful sitting around or directing traffic or doing whatever they do. Washingtonians are being pretty calm, though, so there aren't any riots or looting or anything like that.
Just to give another view on the situation here in DC
-- K
A co-worker and I did the math on this. You need a minum of 4 people, 8 for better success. They have to coordinate... But: If they are people working at air ports (in bagadge handling or cleaning) they can get a weapon(s) on a plane. Security at US airports isn't exactly tight. Then you need someone who can fly an aircraft enough to steer, not take it off or land it. After take off, the armed party goes to the front bathroom, slips into the cockpit kills both pilots, and locks the door (or there is another person there for crowd control). You need one, but more likely two people per plane. In a country of 300 million, with our freedoms you have to look out for 8 guys.
--
locust
NEW YORK (CNN) -- Terrorists struck the United States Tuesday morning in harrowing, widespread attacks that included at least three commercial jet crashes into significant buildings.
... American Flight 77, a Boeing 757 from Washington Dulles airport to Los Angeles with 58 passengers and six crew is unaccounted for. Witness says plane that hit Pentagon was an American Airlines Boeing 757.
... United confirms the crash of Flight 175 from Boston to Los Angeles with 56 passengers and seven crew aboard. It's possible, but not confirmed, that this is the second plane that hit the World Trade Center.
In the first attack, a plane hits the north tower of the World Trade Center in Manhattan shortly before 9 a.m., followed by another plane into the second tower about 20 minutes later. Both towers later collapse.
About an hour later, a plane crashes into the Pentagon, part of which later collapses.
American Airlines tells CNN that it lost two planes, both en route to Los Angeles: American Flight 11 from Boston with 81 passengers and 11 crew aboard is lost. This is believed, but not confirmed, to have been one of the planes that crashed into the trade center.
United Airlines loses two planes: United Airlines Flight 93 airliner headed from Newark, New Jersey, to San Francisco, crashes near Somerset, Pennsylvania -- police say initial reports indicate no survivors.
FBI sources said all four planes that crashed had been hijacked.
The Pentagon, the White House, the State Department, the Justice Department, the Capitol, the CIA and all other government buildings in Washington are evacuated.
President Bush calls the crashes "a national tragedy." Later in the day, Bush issues a statement from Barksdale AFB near Shreveport, Louisiana. "Make no mistake: The United States will hunt down and punish those responsible for these cowardly acts."
In the first-ever national ground stop of aircraft, all flights nationwide are stopped at their departure airports.
International flights are initially diverted to Canada; FAA says later, however, that 22 U.S.-bound international flights will be allowed to land.
Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef, the Taliban ambassador to Pakistan, says in reaction to the terror attacks that "we want to tell the American children that Afghanistan feels your pain and we hope that the courts find justice."
In New York, more than 10,000 rescue personnel rush to the scene. Evacuation of lower Manhattan begins.
Israel evacuates all of its missions around the world.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta is evacuated. CDC prepares bioterrorism teams in case they become necessary.
Philadelphia landmarks are evacuated.
In Chicago, the Sears Tower is evacuated; United Nations in New York is evacuated.
Five battleships and two aircraft are deployed along the East Coast of the United States, and two aircraft carriers go to New York area, all from Norfolk, Virginia.
The New York Port Authority closes all bridges and tunnels into the city.
U.S. stock markets close after the New York attacks.
NATO sends home all non-essential personnel from its Brussels, Belgium, headquarters.
The Immigration and Naturalization Service puts the U.S. borders with Mexico and Canada on highest state of alert.
Los Angeles International Airport is evacuated.
Disney closes its parks in Orlando, Florida, and Disneyland in Anaheim, California.
FEMA implements plan established for such events: FBI leads investigation, and Justice Deptartment heads crisis management.
Three Palestinian groups -- Hamas, the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine and Islamic Jihad -- deny responsibility for the attacks, but blame U.S. policies in the Mideast.
Mayor Anthony Williams of Washington, D.C., declares a state of emergency.
A Delta flight makes emergency landing in Cleveland and all passengers are safely evacuated. Federal officials search the plane for a possible bomb.
Shop smart, Shop S-Mart.
> This is an act of war against the United States.
No, it's not. It's an act of terrorism. There's an enormous difference, a lesson that Vietnam taught us, and that you've apparently forgotten.
> Peace did not stop Hitler; peace did not stop the Axis Powers.
This would be a great analogy if it was accurate, but it isn't. Nations cannot operate without infrastructure, but most terrorist organizations can. You're fighting a different animal, and the weapon that's most effective against one can be entirely ineffective against the other. Think of trying to use an elephant gun (good against elephants, naturally) to kill a swarm of bees, and you'll get the idea.
> If viable proof of guilt of Osama bin Laden is brought forth,
> and the Taliban refuses to turn him over to the United States, then
> they are an accomplice to an act of war and should be dealt with
> appropriately.
What if they aren't really harboring him? Or what if they are? What would be an appropriate response to that? Invasion? Do you really think that the rest of the world will stand idly by and watch us annex Afghanistan? Do you really think that this incident warrants a war against Iran and Iraq? How about Russia? How about China? Both world wars started over annexations of territory, and in both wars nations with no initial stake were eventually pulled in (like the U.S. in WWI, which we entered because of our alliance with Britain and France). The number of Americans that would die in World War III would eclipse the deaths today within weeks.
> There must be a message sent to the world that terrorist actions
> against the United States will be met with such an incredible and
> unimaginably horrific response, than no one sane, fanatical, insane,
> or otherwise would even conceive of the idea.
Get your temper back in check and read that again. Sane people don't use terrorism, and fanaticals and the insane don't care about consequences. So, our "horrific response" will only serve to turn the collateral damage victims into more enemies.
> It is time to obliterate those who would cause this to happen
> using every means at our disposal, including the most destructive
> and horrific weapons ever developed by man. If some civilians die
> along the way, they are unfortunate casualties of war.
It is almost astonishing that your comment reflects very closely the words used by Timothy McVeigh in describing his destruction of the Murrah building. But then, it's not that astonishing after all, in that you're advocating the same sort of terrorism as he was ("if the (fill-in-the-blank) government is going to protect people who commit crimes against the (fill-in-the-blank) people, then I'm justified in killing them and anyone else who happens to get in the way, and I'll call them "unfortunate casualties of war" because it soothes my sense of justice and makes my position less abhorrent").
Until you (and many more like you) realize that fighting terrorism isn't just about brute force, we as a nation are destined to suffer from more of these attacks. Fighting terrorism is a high art form, and it can be done with a high degree of success, but it's never perfect, and it's never about simple military might. Read more about counter-terrorism, and you'll be surprised (and educated) by what you find.
Virg
The World Trade Center had inadequate protection systems in the 1993 bombing; the truck bomb in the parking garage knocked out emergency power and the fire pumps. Last time, they didn't even have battery backup on the emergency lighting. The FEMA study of the bombing and fire indicates only minor upgrades were made to fire protection systems; better emergency lighting and such. No improvements to sprinklers or new fire barriers were made, other than improving backup power to the fire pumps. Most of the improvements were to communications and control.
This was much worse than it should have been.
Structural design flaws or additional explosives involved? Of course a 757 is bigger than a 707.
Engineers shocked by
towers' collapse
BY BLAIR KAMIN
Chicago Tribune
CHICAGO -- The World Trade Center, a
symbol of American economic might, survived
one terrorist attack in 1993. It was designed to
withstand the impact of a jet, but both its
towers collapsed this morning after planes
rammed them.
The structural engineer who designed the
towers said as recently as last week that their
steel columns could remain standing if they
were hit by a 707.
Les Robertson, the Trade Center's structural
engineer, spoke last week at a conference on
tall buildings in Frankfurt, Germany. He was
asked during a question-and-answer session
what he had done to protect the twin towers
from terrorist attacks, according to Joseph
Burns, a principal at the Chicago firm of
Thornton-Thomasetti Engineers.
Burns, who was present, said that Robertson
said of the center, ``I designed it for a 707 to
smash into it.''
Burns, whose firm did the structural engineering
for the Petronas Twin Towers in Malaysia --
the world's tallest buildings -- said Robertson
did not elaborate on the remark. Robertson
could not be reached early Tuesday.
Completed in 1972 and 1973, the 110-story
twin towers were the fifth and sixth tallest
buildings in the world. One World Trade
Center, finished in 1972, was briefly after its
construction the world's tallest building. The towers have been called
``a monumental gate to New York and the United States.''
They withstood the 1993 attack, when a bomb-laden van exploded,
killing six people and injuring more than 1,000.
Closely spaced steel columns that ringed their perimeter held up the
World Trade Center towers. Chicago's Aon Center (formerly the
Amoco Building), completed in 1973, uses a similar support system,
known to structural engineers as a ``tube.''
Shocked by the building's collapse, structural engineers pointed to fire
as the likely cause of the structural failure.
``Fire melts steel,'' Burns said. In addition, he said, the impact of the
plane could have severely damaged the building's sprinklers, allowing
the fire to rage, despite fireproofing supposed to protect steel columns
and beams.
``You never know in an explosion like that whether they (the
sprinklers) get cut off,'' Burns said.
Architects Minoru Yamasaki and Associates, in association with
Emery Roth & Sons, designed the World Trade Center.
The structural engineers were the firm of Skilling, Helle, Christiansen,
Robertson. The developer was The Port Authority of New York and
New Jersey.
Tuesday's attack marked the second time that a plane has crashed
into a New York City skyscraper, although the first incident was an
accident.
In 1945, a B-25 flying at 200 miles per hour slammed into the 78th
and 79th floors of the Empire State Building, gouging an
18-by-20-foot hole 913 feet above the streets of Manhattan. The
pilot, Lt. Col. William F. Smith Jr., had been heading from New
York's LaGuardia Airport to Newark, N.J., when he became
disoriented.
Fourteen people died in the crash and the fire that followed -- three
people in the plane and 11 in what was then the world's tallest
building.
Like the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, which also was struck
by a plane, provided a sizable and symbolic target.
The Pentagon is the world's largest office building, with a total of 6.5
million square feet, serves as headquarters for the world's most
powerful military. Sears Tower, by comparison, has about 3.5 million
square feet of office space.
Beta sux! Join the Slashcott! http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=4760465&cid=46173047
No, it's not even close to what a tactical nuke would have done. A 5-kiloton yield warhead would kill 98% of the people within one square kilometer instantly just from the pressure (~12psi). Out to about 3 square km you have 50% fatalies from pressure (~5psi). The thermal effects would be fatal (6.7 cal/cm^2) to a radius of about 1.3km and there would be significant injuries out to about 1.8km radius. Immediate radiation would be lethal to 90% of those within 1.2 km of this "low-yield" "clean" burst.
Also thanks to the radiation, clean up and rescue proceeds at a snail's pace.
And that's the low end of sub-strategic yields. The B-61 is lower, at about 1 kiloton, but you also have tactical nukes like those on the Trident that would cause an estimated 200,000 fatalities in an urban area with density similar to Moscow.
Only for a loose definition of "approach" does this tragedy begin to approach the amount of destruction nuclear weapons are capable of even in their tactical form.
Why would Palestinian terrorists target the USA?
Well, perhaps because the USA has exacerbated the mid-East problems, rather than help reduce them.
From BigEye's Foreign Correspondent. No idea how truthful all this is, mind you, but I'm fairly sure it's worth consideration:
BUSH FIDDLES WHILE PALESTINE BURNS
NEW YORK - Pre-election concerns that George W. Bush had a weak grasp of world affairs have been confirmed by a succession of ideology-driven blunders and amateurish fumbles made by his administration that have damaged America's interests and image around the globe.
To whit: trying to rush the anti-missile defense project when there was no need for haste; the tactless rejection of the Kyoto environment accords; Washington's crude enlistment of India in a new anti-Chinese alliance; boycotting this weekend's UN racism conference at Durban: and, most disturbingly, fiddling while Palestine burns.
Who, one wonders, is running US foreign policy? Certainly not the nearly invisible `stealth' Secretary of State Colin Powell. America's first black Secretary of State was not allowed to go to an African-oriented conference in Durban because Israel was being accused of racism.
Last week, Bush berated PLO chief Yasser Arafat for failing to end `Palestinian violence.' Soon after, Israel assassinated Mustafa Zibri, a senior Palestinian political leader, by firing Maverick missiles from Apache helicopter gunships into his office.
The next day, Israeli M-60 tanks and M-113 armored personnel carriers occupied the Palestinian Christian town of Beit Jala.
Meanwhile, it has been revealed that Israel is using the M494 105mm APERS-T tank round against Palestinians. This deadly round, designed for use against enemy anti-tank missile crews, disperses a conical spray of 5,000 tiny, razor-sharp darts known as flechettes. In the past, Israel has also used anti-personnel cluster bombs against Palestinian refugee camps.
All of the above-noted weapons were supplied to Israel by the United States. Israel is also using an arsenal of other US-supplied weapons, from F-16 fighters to M-16 rifles, against Palestinians. Israeli-designed Merkava tanks `pacifying' rebellious Palestinians were built with US military aid.
Israel is the largest ever recipient of US foreign aid - at least $91 billion since 1949, a sum that could have bought four complete aircraft carrier battle groups ( about 80 ships) for the US Navy. Each year, Israel gets $3-5 billion in US aid.
The 1998 Wye River `peace' accords negotiated by President Clinton gave Israel an extra US $380 million for Apache helicopter gunships and armored vehicles - both currently being used against Palestinians. Just before leaving office, Clinton, quietly sent Congress a request for an additional US$800 million in military aid for Israel, a gift no doubt aimed at securing his future in publishing and Hollywood. Soon after, in a startling coincidence, Clinton received a book contract for $12 million.
Many American conservatives and Jewish Americans are praising Bush for giving Israel's rightwing government carte blanche to crush the Palestinian uprising and assassinate its leadership. VP Dick Cheney has repeatedly accused Palestinian of `terrorism' while praising Israel's `restraint.' One wonders what Washington's response would be if the PLO began assassinating Israeli politicians who advocate murdering or ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
Israel brushes aside occasional tut-tuts from the US State Department, and ignores charges its American-supplied weapons are being used in direct violation of the US Arms Export Control Act, which forbids recipients use of American arms except for national self defense in wartime.
The White House and US Congress, fearful of antagonizing the Israel lobby, have refused to address this issue. Ironically, it was left to Gush Shalom, the courageous Israeli peace movement, to protest to Bush the clearly illegal use of American arms against Palestinians.
It is increasingly clear that unless the mayhem in Palestine is ended, the entire Mideast could careen towards an explosion. Ariel Sharon, Israel's rightwing Prime Minister, has painted himself into a corner by vowing to crush the `intifada' and never allow a viable Palestinian state. Having provoked the current uprising, and vowed to break its back, Sharon now finds himself trapped in a cycle of violence, terror and counter-terror.
Sharon's only answer so far is more of what he has done his entire career: blowing up houses, assassination, martial law, collective punishments. Now Sharon's aides are hinting at attacks against Syria, Lebanon, Iran, and even Egypt. Israeli critics are warning the Sharon is running amok and must be reigned in.
Given Sharon's adamant refusal to halt Jewish colonization or allow a Palestinian state, Palestinians have no reason to halt their uprising. Only America has the power to push the two sides into an eventual peace agreement.
Israel's brutal repression of the Palestinian `intifada' is being telecast around the globe, producing rage against Israel and its patron, the United States, and a worldwide surge of anti-semitism. America's strategic and economic interests across the Mideast and Muslim World are being threatened by the agony of Palestine, which inevitably invites terrorist attacks against US citizens and property.
President Bush needs to act urgently. He needs to help Sharon find a way out of the corner in which he is stuck. Sharon has left himself no line of political retreat - other than being seen to bow to irresistible American pressure. Bush and VP Dick Cheney should cease helping Israel's rightwing and its American media mouthpieces demonize Yasser Arafat, who, however guilty of condoning violence, is the man with whom Israel has to make peace. Being rightwing does not automatically make one right.
Bush's vanishing act over the Mideast has handed the initiative by default to Arab and Israeli extremists. Unless the US forcefully intervenes, Hamas suicide bombers and Sharon's death squads will determine policy. The result will be a disaster for Jews and Arabs alike.
Bush is being irresponsible and dishonest by pretending America has nothing to do with this horrible mess. America has everything to do with it and could stop the carnage overnight if the White House showed sufficient political will and courage. Bush needs to recall the old adage, he who pays the piper, calls the tune.
Copyright: Eric S. Margolis 2001
Again, perhaps this fellow is lying or out-to-lunch. But if what he states is truthful, I think it's fair to say that the fanatics have just cause to be pissed off (and that's not to say that they are excused for being terrorists.)
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
This is not state-based terrorism. This is a small group of fanatics. Your stupid, stupid tactic would make it a war.
Terrorism is cyclical, not a three step process. You are attacked, you get angry, you retaliate. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat.
Look at Ireland, the Middle East, etc. Do you want our grandchildren to still be fighting the same damn "war"?
We wait. We continue to work. We find the black boxes, the voice recorders, we investigate. Those that did it are on the run. They are in hiding, and think we don't know where they are. Let they sweat a little. When we have the evidence, when the world knows, then we act. Maybe not even violently - put them in front of the same court as Millosevich, make them stand trial.
Above all, we show that we are rational humans, and not dogs that bite because we were bit.