Slashdot Mirror
Further Updates On Terrorist Attack
Contradicting earlier reports, reader Adam Brookman writes: "I can guarantee that no car bomb went off in front of the State Dept. in DC. My father is part of the critical personel at State dept. When I read that I called him. He said he heard the same thing and he also heard that the building was hit by a plane, but neither were true."
Worth reading is this analysis of the motives and some possible suspects in today's violence, at Jane's International Security News. They've picked three plausible attackers. Motive aside, Jack Bryar has a convincing take on who is really most hurt by the attacks today.
babyruth writes: "amazon.com has a Red Cross Relief fund set up on their homepage, where you can contribute online. Only several hundred have contributed so far, let the power of /. help!" Iridium provides a link straight to the donations page, noting that "All standard fees are waived -- all proceeds go directly to the Red Cross." Of course, the Red Cross is -still- in desperate need of blood. If you can donate, please call 1-800-HELP-NOW to find the donation center nearest to you.
iggyflashbulb writes: "CNN reports some oddball group not associated with bin Laden is attacking Kabul at night. Are they taking advantage of the NY situation or did they create it?"
An anonymous reader writes: "Following the sad (and outrageous) mess of these terrorist attacks, results are already starting to impact the country. When a RSM failed on one of our 5500 Ciscos, we recieved the following notice
'Due to a national emergency completion of your case, delivery of your parts or engineer will be delayed until further notice. Several areas of the country have restricted transportation and currently no air traffic is available. Cisco will notify you as soon a we are able to dispatch your order.'
There doesn't seem to any information on Cisco's site."
CERT is in action as well: SilentTone writes: "Ween Hall at Carnegie-Mellon University was evacuated today so the the Computer Emergency Response Team could go into action."
Many readers have been assembling mirrors for the overloaded news sites of the world. Jon Anhold writes: "I've compiled more photos and what not, mirrored many of the sites around to help the load. They're available here: http://ziggy.dreamland.net/wtc/"
Owen Bossola writes: "This is a simple webpage I put up with shots I took all day of the World Trade Center. I go to school across the river at Stevens Institute of Technology and I watched the whole thing from campus. It is absolutely nuts, I'm looking out my window and for the first time, downtown NYC is dark, and there aren't two large buildings gleaming back at me."
rhyder writes: "I was last in the World Trade Center and the attached World Financial Center on Saturday evening. Many people I know work in those buildings, even more live and work in the shadow of those 2 towers.
From the Port Authority of NY and NJ:
- The Port Authority
- Trade Center Concourse Level Map
- Trade Center Plaza Level Map
- Trade Center Complex Overview
- Area Map showing southern tip of Manhattan and the Trade Center location."
Anyone else able to confirm this rumor?
Jon Bishop asks: "Why Today? Why did this attack happen on September 11, 2001. Here is a guess. I played with the date commonly used for programming. YYYYMMDD returns 20010911. 911...in 2001. Is this play on numbers intentional or coincidence?" It may be significant that the anniversary of a Congressional resolution "favoring a Jewish homeland in Palestine" falls on this date. Then again, if you go back a century or two, you may find a lot of anniversaries that seem just as significant.
Carl Merritt writes: "Since many sites seem to be creaking under the load today I've dumped every relevant picture and video I can find onto my server, please feel free to suck up some of my unused bandwidth with downloads or links: http://www.binaryvista.com/WTC/ I'll probably leave it up for a couple weeks, or until CNN asks me to remove their pictures ;-)."
An Anonymous Coward writes "I just want to remind everyone that there is still active air cover over at least Chicago. A tanker is orbiting O'Hare and at least what appear to be two F-15s are making the rounds. If you would like more information including frequencies I suggest subscribing to the CARMA mailing list at QTH.net for up to date monitoring information."
Disheartening news from Egypt: soulflakes points to this story of some Egyptians celebrating the attacks today. Here's a BBC piece which indicates the feeling is shared in some other African countries. This doesn't mean that all or most people in any country feel the same way.
yoda389 writes: "I'm getting reports from friends that gas prices are jumping to as much as $5.00 a gallon. There are huge lines at all gas stations here in my hometown someplace in Wisconsin." And ikohl1 writes: "A friend just informed me of how gas prices were raised to $3.50 in a town near where i live. I didn't believe him at first but I found this article on Yahoo."
Gas prices may fluctuate in the short term, but in the long haul, effects on exports of goods physical and abstract may be affected just as drastically: elliotj writes: "MSNBC has a Steven Levy opinion piece on the possible implications of today's attack on America and governmental policy on encryption export restrictions. Personally, I think we need to determine exactly what happened before blaming physical or electronic security measures for a role in the tragedy. I heard the planes were hi-jacked with knives ... that doesn't sound very high-tech or a sign of significant security failings to me. It is the act itself that is so shocking and sickening."
The van contained no explosives, but the three people involved have been detained for questioning.
High-speed Road Trip (18.000KPH)
From
m l
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34190,00.ht
September Anniversary of Several Past Attacks, Events
Tuesday, September 11, 2001
September marks the anniversary of several noted political events and terrorist attacks.
On Sept. 11, 1922, a British mandate was proclaimed in Palestine, despite Arab protests. It lasted until 1948, after the United Nations authorized a partition of the territory and the state of Israel was established.
On Sept. 6, 1970, three planes from TWA, Swissair and BOAC carrying more than 400 hostages were hijacked and ordered to the Jordanian airport by the PFLP, in what is known as "Skyjack Sunday." Another terrorist team tried to hijack an El Al Boeing over London but security staff foiled the attempt and captured one of the hijackers, Leila Khalid, alive. The German, Swiss and British Governments all agreed to the PFLP's demands and released a number of terrorists, including Khalid, held in their jails.
On Sept. 11, 1972, the troubled Munich Summer Olympics, also remembered as "the Olympics of Terror," ended. For 21 hours under live television cameras,hooded gunmen of the Palestinian faction "Black September" held Israeli athletes hostage, killing 11 of them duringa botched getaway and airport firefight with German antiterrorism squads.
On Sept. 28, 2000, the eve of Rosh Hashanah (the Jewish New Year), Ariel Sharon, then- leader of the opposition right-wing Likud party, visited the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem. Sharon, accompanied by an entourage of security officers, claimed he was exercising his right to visit the Mount, but his visit angered many Arabs, both Israeli and Palestinian. The day after the visit saw the beginning of what is known as the Al-Aqsa Intifada.
John 17:20
I was on top of that building two weeks ago. I got the pictures that I took there yesterday. I can't really bring myself to open the package again. I don't think it has really sunk in for me yet. It all seemed so big, larger than life when I was standing there looking up at it and then when I was at the top staring down. I can't believe that the place is gone. I'm thinking of the French kid that took my picture in front of the rest of the Manhattan skyline. I'm angry, but I think I'm too shaken up to be as angry as I will be later.
I'm not a religous person, but God be with the victims and protect the rescue workers as they do their best. I don't think I will ever forget the images of those people jumping from the top floors. I won't sleep well tonight.
God bless you all.
Wasn't there a story on \. the other day about the Govt. raiding an ISP that mostly served Islamic sites? I have searched for it here, but cannot find it now. I was wondering now if they did that because they had some idea that something big was about to go down??
"You can't play with my yo-yo"
Did anybody look up today? Here in the Midwest, while this tragedy can seem so close on the TV it almost vanishes into the background when you step outside and see everything and everyone going about their business normally. Until you look up. When the FAA shut down all domestic air travel, they almost turned off the sky. It was a pure blue here in Iowa today, interrupted only by the occaisional cirrus cloud. Right now, the stars wink alone. The contrails, the glints of silver in the sunset, all gone. Routes out of DSM, STL, Chicago, Kansas City, Minneapolis crisscross the sky daily, but not today. It felt very strange to look up at that barren sky. It's a sight that hasn't been seen in many decades, and I don't expect to see it again.
My condolences go out to the friends and family of the victims of this horrific crime. Attending an east coast college, I have talked with many people who are from the areas where the attacks occured. This has hit close to home. I really have no words to describe what I am feeling.
With that said, I refer you to the excellent salon.com. Their coverage of this event has been extraordinary. I especially hope you read the first-person accounts of the terror. A number: that is difficult to identify with. A person, however, is much different. Remember each one of those thousands was a person, with his/her own life and nothing should be taken for granted.
Everyone just assumes this came from the Middle-East. That's what we thought when OKC happened, and it turned out to be something entirely different.
dinner: it's what's for beer
It is more likely that old fashioned counterintelligent-style phone tricks were used rather than fancy encryption.
After all, if the NSA can probably defeat any encryption if they have reason to suspect they need to. It's nearly impossible to screen the entire Muslim/Islamic community for suspicious rug orders that may or not be instructions.
- JoeShmoe
-- I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
The approach recommended by Cohen, ironically, complements very well the classic strategy pursued by terrorists. Marxist militant Carlos Marighella, whose tactical blueprint has been followed by terrorists worldwide, explained that terrorists attack innocent people in order to provoke governments "to intensify repression. The police roundups, house searches, arrests of innocent people, make life unbearable.... Rejecting the 'so-called political solution,' the urban guerrilla must become more aggressive and violent, resorting without letup to sabotage, terrorism, expropriations, assaults, kidnappings, and executions, heightening the disastrous situation in which the government must act." Marighella went on to explain how this cycle continues until the existing political order is completely subverted, and a revolutionary regime takes power.
The gravest danger presented by today's terrorist attacks is that the effort to find and punish perpetrators will become a war upon the liberties of the American people. Yes, those responsible for the attacks must be found and punished with pitiless severity. But at the same time Americans must demand an immediate end to our interventionist foreign policy, which exacted such a tragic price in American blood on this terrible day.
Seastead this.
And exactly what freedoms are we talking about giving up? Right to privacy - you'll still have it, when your at home... in private. Right to free speech, you'll still have it. Right to congregate, right to bare arms, right to freedom of religion... exactly which right is it that you think you might lose from this? No matter what laws they pass I don't believe that I'm losing any rights afforded to me by the current constitution so what constitution are you going by? Are you afraid that you might be detained at an airport for a more thorough search, would that be an inconvenience? Yes. But there is no greater inconvenience than death.
"Do not be swept up in the momentum of mediocrity." - anon
Let me be very clear, everything that follows is speculation. It will probably be days if not weeks before we have a good idea what has happened today. We may never really know all that has led up to this tragedy, but what is the likely scenario?
We know that 4 planes were hijacked and 3 slammed into buildings.
Almost certainly all the hijackers on the planes are now dead as well as many many victims. By targeting the WTC and Pentagon they have attacked buildings with both actual and symbolic value to the American way of life. These are places presumably intended to produce as many casualties as possible and demonstrate the vulnerabilities of even our greatest organizations.
Clearly these people hate America and Americans and are perfectly happy to give their lives to hurt us and create terror. Multiple people prepared to give their lives in the assault suggest a religious group with beliefs that their souls will be honored after their death. Essentially all major religions (e.g. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism) share a fundamental respect for life, but at many times and places their teachings have been corrupted to justify killing in God's name. In the current case Islam seems the most likely, not because they are especially vulnerable, but because people in Islamic regions seem the most likely to hate Americans at this point in history.
We must bear partial responsibility for the hate they feel towards us. At some point there was a failure to connect with these people and address their concerns in a reasonable way. Now the world has stepped down a path that will almost certainly lead to even greater destruction. Of course, our unseen attackers bear the greatest responsibility and will hopefully be called to account, but we must wonder if there was anything society could do to redress their grievances before they grew to the point that they perceived violence as their only option.
What does it take to do this? Most likely you need pilots trained on these planes or one's like them. This ensures that the pilot will in fact fly directly into the target, and minimized the chance of the original pilot conveying that something is wrong. Probably it would be easier to find suicide bombers and send them to flight school than to recruit pilots to be bombers.
Terrorists would also need weapons. This means either being able to conceal them through security or being able to go around security. If you have money it is probably easier to get weapons that can be walked through a metal detector than to research ways to breach security. This is especially true if you plan to go through more than one airport. Hard plastics and ceramics can be made into some nasty things if cost is not a concern. Alternatively, a sharp obsidian or glass knife with wooden handle could probably be made for a bargain.
Once on the plane you want to be able to take control and get into the locked cockpit. Threatening passengers might get one to open the cockpit but it's not totally reliable and they would certainly send distress signals first. More preferably one would want to practice breaking into cockpits and have a tool or ram that could do it quickly. A slightly modified piece of luggage might serve as a ram. (I don't know what the locking mechanisms are like but someone taking the time to train as a pilot certainly would have access to them and perhaps figure out how to quickly defeat them.)
A single terrorist is somewhat likely to be overpowered in the tight quarters of an airliner, and is at greater risk if he has to pilot the plane himself while in a cockpit that can no longer be secured properly. This suggests that you need multiple suicidal terrorists per plane. Two might be enough, but three would be safer because that still gives them a backup even after your pilot takes the controls.
To continue speculating, we are talking about 8-12 hijackers, at least 4 of which pilots. They would probably want some financial backers and other organizers. It would make sense to have associates to recruit the next generation of terrorists. If they're foreign nationals you need an identity and papers, or some other way to get into the country. Of course securing entrance into the country wouldn't require telling the person you get the false papers from what you intend to do. While they do want some people in support positions, they wouldn't want too many as it increases the opportunities of leaks that would kill the whole project. I'm guessing that somewhere between 10 and 30 people knew about this attack in advance.
The main cost is in preparation time and finding the right people to go through with it. The point is that you don't actually need an army, expensive weaponry, or lots of financial backing to accomplish this. Of course, having financial backing and encouragement is perhaps rather likely and would make things easier, especially if they come from third world nations where the relative income is quite low.
Obviously we will have to wait until the facts are known to see how accurate my speculations are, and truth is often stranger than imagination.
Who's to say this isn't a massive conspiracy to give a reason to beef up the USA's millitary, and turn george bush jr. into a hero by leading the country during a disaster. And as a bonus, they get to blame it on bin laden and finally get rid of that hard-line muslim nuisance.
Who's to say this isn't an extremely immoral inside job?
The Slashdot Effect: A new for
I don't know if anyone is interested in this, but maybe. When my dad died about a year ago, one of the mementos I got was this army knife that my Grandpa used in World War 2 (It's a Kabar knife - I think they're still standard issue in the armed forces). These things are pretty big, maybe 2/3 my arm length, and if you look at them you can see that they're designed to kill someone.
So, when I flew home, I threw this in my bag and didn't really remember that I shouldn't bring this on the plane. But it went right through all the security checks, and none of the security people noticed it in my bag. I was kind of surprised that I got it through so easy.
Anyway, I thought I'd mention it since people are saying that the hijackers used knifes to take over the plane. It can't have been too hard to get them on.
Ahem...
I propose that Sept 11 was selected because the team was in place for weeks waiting for good weather over all targets at the same time.
Only saw video of WTC 2 strike. If all of the terrorist pilots had that skill level, they needed good visibility, i.e., he was too wobbly to be a seasoned instrumet pilot.
I suspect that the whole bunch laid in wait until the weather was right in both DC and NYC before they even left for Logan, Newark and Dulles.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
A few simple steps that could lessen the risk of skyjackings.
1. Cockpit door locked from the inside at all times. (Flight attendants must knock to deliver food and coffee).
2. Peephole in cockpit to verify who is knocking.
3. bullet-proof cockpit bulkhead.
4. As a last resort, all cockpits equiped with shotguns loaded with beanbag ammunition, (to avoid hull peircings).
These 4 simple safety measures would have prevented this tragedy. Cardboard cutters would not do much against a bulletproof bulkhead. Granted, some passengers may have been killed, but I would postulate that such a mission would not even have been hatched if these safefty measures were in place.
Dag Maggot
I have no pants and I must scream
I just got off the phone with my friend whose girlfriend has a nearly miraculous survival story.
She arrived at work on the 81st floor of the north tower at 8:45am EDT today. The first plane crashed into this tower at about 8:55am EDT about 5 floors above her. After the initial confusion and chaos, everybody on her floor headed towards the exits and began the slow evacuation down the stairs.
While the first building was being evacuated, the second plane hit the south tower at about 9:05am. An hour later while still making her way down the stairs of the north tower, the south tower collapses at 10:07am. 20 minutes after that at 10:27am, and nearly an hour and a half after the first plane crashed into her building, she makes it to the bottom floor as the north tower begins to collapse down onto her. (Sadly, I assume everybody in floors any higher than 81 probably didn't make it out of the building.)
She was one of the last people to make it out of the building, but she did not make it far before a door fell on top of her and pinned her to the ground. In retrospect, she was very lucky because the door shielded her from glass and other falling objects.
After the dust settled somewhat, she was discovered by police and taken to the hospital. She is in stable condition and is being treated for bruises, cuts, and broken bones.
I can only imagine how she must feel to have been at ground zero and still be alive to tell about it.
Looks like the book part has already taken off. It's the #2 best seller at Amazon right now.
Formally submitting my first diff patch, I fired this letter off to the Federal Aviation Administration, the overbearing bureaucracy whose oversights led to four plane crashes and thousands killed. The trip I took was to Defcon 9.
I took a trip to Las Vegas in July. My flight from Phoenix went normally except for one serious, disturbing mistake made by Phoenix security checkpoint staff. I thought it was funny at first that such as a glaring lapse of policy occured, but after the tragic events in New York and Washington, I revistited this story and I wonder whether four lapses in "Airport Security" caused the deaths of so many people today.
Suitcasenuke is the name of a computer I jerryrigged in an old Samsonite suitcase for portability. I have edited this account for clarity, the original is at http://telconnect.net/~sean/suitcasenuke/
Transporting:
The finished product is rather heavy and bulky--65 pounds give or take. It barely fit as a carryon. I took America West flight 113 from Phoenix Sky Harbor International to Las Vegas McCarran on a busy Thursday afternoon.
Approaching "SECURITY CHECKPOINT A," I cut in line by 10 people hollering out to the security staff that I could nto have suitcase nuke X-rayed as the machine is a very sensitive piece of electronic equipment.
Preparing for this, I had all the fixins to prove to them this frightening apparatus wasn't a bomb. Packed in there were my keyboard, mouse, power cord, vga cable so I could plug it into one of their terminals if need be. The screener blatantly ignores my request to pass it through and I'm eventually in front of the walk-through metal detector. This staffer does not understand English very will and I do not understand his natiove Swahili. Thankfully my brother had already gone through and was also trying to get through to the screener. Five minutes of this, and there are easily sixty people behind me in line.
Pressed with the queue, he grabbed the suitcase and fit it through the little gap between the metal detector and the X-ray machine and flailed his hand behind him, motioning me to 'go over there.'
I found myself staring at an unstaffed table with a plane to Vegas to catch, not blow out of the sky. My impatient brother didn't feel like further embattling the screeners and rigamorol. Off we went.
They didn't plug it in. They didn't swab it for explosive residue. They didn't even open it.
I smuggled--if that's the right word--a 70 pound suitcase right passed "Airport Security."
Makes me wish it were a suitcase nuke.
Now before you go out and arrest me, I beg of you to reconsider airport security policies. For example, arresting people who make bomb jokes at the gate is the embodiment of stupidity and maligned priorities. If I was really going to blow up the plane, would I be talking about it at the security checkpoint?
How hard would it be to smuggle an 18" polycarbonate machete onto a plane by maybe taping it to your thigh or sandwiching it in your suitcase between a lead plate? Even if I obviously brought contraband aboard, what's the chance the underpayed, undereducated, understaffed, and overly apathetic security screener overlook it or not know what it is? Or would he be too lazy and not even get up and make a fuss about it if he did recognize it? Don't say it's not possible. It happened to me. I did it at an airport with one of the best records in the industry. Phoenix Sky Harbor had two violations last year. Is this one Number 3? Which other violations do you not know about?
The FAA failed in its security measures four times the morning of 11th Septembenr and as a result, our nation mourns. Could that 18" polycarbonate machete worn by a survivalist or a law-abiding american concerned only with the defense of his legitimate fellow passengers ultimately ensure their safety? Barbara Olson's plane was taken down by two hijackers armed with cardboard cutters. Could a right to self-defense have saved United Flights 99 and 175 and American Airlines Flights 11 and 77 and prevented this atrocity?
Does the FAA honestly think it will stop a suicidal hijacker on a mission for Allah by having a ticket clerk ask "Have any unknown persons been in the possession of your baggage?"
Don't cast this off. Please. THe Administration's policies have failed America. I want to see them changed.
"[T]he single essential element on which all discoveries will be dependent is human freedom." -- Barry Goldwater
What about the added weight? A Boeing 747 has a max. takeoff weight of 400 tons. Now, lets be generous and say it was at half that. You have 400,000 pounds being applied to a severely weekened structure.
I didn't see the jet come out the other side, so it must have stayed in the building. Wouldn't that contribute significantly to the collapse as well?
Paul Anderson
"I drank WHAT?!" -- Socrates
I really hope that this turns out to be a white, blue eyed American. That way the little world that racists try to live in, where all whites are good and every body else is scum, will come crashing down.
Racism has no place in this dialogue.
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
I *swear* my newsfeed (CBC TV, Canada) reported a crash in Colorado. There was never a retraction, nor was there any mention of it again.
NORAD is out in Colorado, although it wouldn't be even scratched by this sort of attack.
Can anyone authoritatively confirm or deny? There were enough rumours flying around in the AM that it's probably just another... but CBC was pretty good about dispelling the rumours once they were known to be false.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
the killing of the opposition leader against the Taliban. He is said to have secretly helped the U.S. get spies into Afghanistan to watch Bin Laden. So the bombing 3 days ago would have been a nice way to prepare for today's events, and the rockets tonight are thought to be the work of opposition supporters.
Donate background CPU time to fight cancer.
Knives aside, hearsay story coming up:
A person I worked with at a prior job related the following to me: His brother flew on a commercial airline with his shotgun in carry-on luggage. He wrapped it in a few pairs of sweats, then in a couple towels and packed clothing around it in a duffel bag.
Aside from the fact that this should not have been neccesary, it is not hard for a determined person to circumvent the airline restrictions.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Is it just me or does this article suddenly take on new meaning?
8 21 5
Hosting Provider Shut Down By FBI
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/09/07/004
My hopes and prayers go out to everyone affected by this tragic event.
What do you people thin of stewardesses (and stewards) being given the power of being armed with a stun gun or something like a projectile to knock out terrorists? Of course, additional training would be required but I nobody is talking about what should be done to prevent future disasters like this (in any country).
Do your best, hope for the best, suspect the worst.
He observed a second airplane immediately swing behind the first in a follow like manner and swoop down on the Pentagon only to pull up at the last second, out of the smoke cloud, and fly away
This is very important. Pictures, taken at NYC also clearly shows the presence of ANOTHER SMALL PLANE of the same type as described above.
Please note, that the area in NYC (and, I believe, also over Washington is closed for flights.) Coincidence ???
See photos here:
http://www.cyberus.ca/~stany/
My guess is that it was some kind of a military escort plane. By this time, they had to know it was a hijacked airplane. If I recall correctly, thhereis a no fly zone over the white house, since that Russian pilot crashed in on Reagan. I'm sure they wouldn't have enforced it on a 757, but they may have sent a plane up to try and get information.
I wouldn't say totally civilian though. Think about the hundreds of companies that were contained within those buildings.
+----------- - - - . auximage
Because in the past fifty years, US government policy has killed millions of civilians worldwide, all to keep career politicians in office. Everything that you feel now, shock, revulsion, anger, is the same genuine feeling that has existed for years in Beiruit and Baghdad, in North Korea and Vietnam and Cuba, in every place else that has suffered US bombs and US sanctions.
Because the US parks carrier battle groups on peoples' doorsteps all over the world, threatens civilian populations, then hangs out the signs saying "Make us go away. Just try."
Because, in the cause of "freedom", the US supported a dictatorship (Iraq) against a theocracy (Iran) then switched sides to defend a monarchy (Kuwait) because it had more oil. There's no principle at work there, just cynical pragmatism.
I'd go on, but you either know this by now, or you don't. The US is hated on a deep and personal level by large parts of the world. Fear has kept them in check. Now you either need to crank up the fear again, or work on the hatred.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Too late to get noticed, but not too late to fuck for some karma. I just meta-moderated a whole lot of fucking losers down to hell for "Insightful" garbage mods on bullshit comments.
I abhor and reject and am fucking pissed at what happened yesterday. By the same token, I detest what a bunch of assholes our politicians are turning out to be. When its a fucking Hollywood movie, everything's AOK , right? But when it's for-fucking-real they're telling parents to TURN OFF THE TV SO THE KIDS DONT SEEIT?
Now we have hundreds of pussy mealy mouth politicians who (a) ran for office to get rich and who (b) lost themselves and have friends who lost BIG $$$ in the stock market and (c) have been bought and sold by corporate lobbyists - let's see what the fuck they can do about this situation...
I love this country but make no mistake about it - if the entire US congress were in the wtc today we'd be better off. God help us.
What in nine hells was being DONE by air traffic control when the deviation (and subsequent lack of communication) was noticed? WHEN was it noticed? WHERE the fuck was the NY Air National Guard during the 18 minutes after the first impact? Is anyone going to try and sell the idea that 20 minutes wasn't enough time to get LOCAL jets in the air for intercept? Take a gander at the locations of NY squadron locations.
I'll buy the explanation that noone believed the first one would actually hit. I'm not gonna buy it for the second WTC hit. That plane should have been downed in the river.
I was just wondering if anyone knows what Bin Laden wants?
All I know is that the media has painted him as a madman who has sworn to destroy america because it is so free, tolerant and wonderful.
I don't believe anyone with any intelligence will buy that for one second (although the american populace does, by and large, seem to believe that some countries hate america because it so lurrvely).
Anyone have any good links to sites which actually try and think about his motives? maybe even ones biased towards his cause, at least then we might get a clearer view of why people are willing to die for it.
----
p
I found this link last night when /. was /.ed
http://www.asce.org/news/pr042900_opalfasullo.cfm
It's a link about the main engineer involved in the construction of the Twin Towers.
Although some people may think his team's design was fatally flawed, I believe that the design did it's job. The structure held long enough for what at this time appears to be at least a partial evacuation.
Aparently, they were successful.
May whoever's in charge give them peace.
"Enough of this wretched, whining monkey life." -- Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, Book 9, 37
And those few words convey a lot of information. The thing with the whole Israel/Palestine thing isn't just religion; it isn't just ethnicity/race; it isn't just political. It's the whole thing. A Palestinian Christian may be treated as an enemy (or potential enemy) by Israel, while a Lebanese Christian in the now defunct SLA (South(ern) Lebanese Army) was backed by Israel, before Israel pulled out of Southern Lebanon.
An Arab Palestinian Muslim or Christian is treated as an enemy (or potential enemy), but an Israeli Arab Druse might find himself in the Israeli Army.
A Palestinian (whose family left the region many years back) I once spoke to told me how the worst treatment he knew of were from Druse border guards.
Meanwhile, some time back a group of Christian Palestinians were organizing a movement to advocate remaining part of Israel rather than being under the control of the Palestinian Authority, if there were a longer lasting peace agreement signed.
If the Palestinians in Israel ever got a solid piece of land to have total control over, I wonder how long it would be before we hear about how the Islamic-leaning government is treating Christians in some areas. Perhaps a long time or never, but perhaps only a few years... Without going too far off-topic, I think Israel is the safest place for a Christian (unless he or she is Palestinian), with Lebanon being the second safest.
I know the "my enemies enemy is my friend" thing but shouldn't the US be more careful in future?? These terrorists _were_ good, they may have been CIA trained, some years ago... O-B-L was a cia-supported combatant in their conflict with the Soviets,(the bigger enemy) Iraq was US supported during its conflict with Iran (then the bigger enemy) Ho Chi Minh was US supported in WWII against the Japanese (then ,also, the bigger enemy). Spot the trend? It's time allies were chosen on a long-term strategic consideration (10-30yrs) rather than the on-going historical tactical context which is current. It's dificult to accuse people of being religious zealots bent on distruction when, not long ago, they were _your_ religius zealots bent on someone-elses destruction on your behalf.
Also, it's hard when the boot is on the other foot... I live in the UK and have been affected by two large IRA bombings on English soil; Manchester and Canary Wharf. These are US-civilian supported religious terrorists using terror bombings to promote their own "jihad" against a fellow western democracy. Now the Irish-American community in NYC knows what it feels like to be on the receiving end of someone elses arms-donations. Just to put it in perspective against all the self-righteous comments I've been reading earlier. I'm not condoning any behaviour, just putting over a point. Anyones life should be sacred; black, white, asian, arabic whatever... No political or religious cause is worth ONE life lost on any side.
BTW, I'm staying anonymous, I don't need flame-junk-mail from the all-in-caps-AOL-redneck militia, thanks....
It's that simple. As a general rule, we don't care. The average American has no idea how much aid we send to Israel. They have NO idea why there is a "war" going on in the Middle East. They don't understand why they are fighting for the same land or how long it has been going on. Ask people on the street about the Jews and Palastinians and at least 90% of the time you'll get a blank stare.
What they do understand is people killing innocent citizens. If people in the Middle East want to change our policy they picked the WRONG WAY TO DO IT. Sure, this is a great way to get news coverage, but you'll get bombed, bad. We're now backed in a corner and the American public DEMANDS a military response. Nothing else will do.
This was posted to Jerry Pournelle's site.
...
Dear Jerry,
Following is a message which my one of my best friends passed along with permission to distribute to those who might be interested. It fills in the details that I missed in my original conversation with him and attempted to relate to you.
Tom has given me permission to distribute the message - please feel free to post it if you deem it appropriate.
Sincerely,
Art Russell Major, US Army (Retired)
Message Follows:
Today was a tragedy for all of America and to my family, a very personal one. Lynn and my Niece Liz's husband, Jeremy Glick was on United flight 93 this morning. When the Hijackers took control of flight 93. Jeremy called my niece who in-turn conferenced him to 911. Jeremy relayed to the police what was happening as the hijacking unfolded. As our niece Liz listened, Jeremy told the police there were three Arab terrorists with knives and a large red box that they claimed contained a bomb. Jeremy tracked the second by second details and relayed them to the police by phone. After several minutes of describing the scene, Jeremy and several other passengers decided there was nothing to lose by rushing the hijackers. Although United Flight 93 crashed outside of Pittsburgh, with the loss of all souls. Jeremy and the other patriotic heroes saved the lives of many people on the ground that would have died if the Arab terrorists had been able to complete their heinous mission.
Please offer your prayers for all of those who perished or were injured in this tragic of all days and to our niece Liz Glick and her 2-month-old child, Emerson, who are left without their loving Husband and Father.
May we remember Jeremy and the other brave souls as heroes, soldiers and Americans' on United flight 93 whom so gallantry gave their lives to save many others.
Lynn, our four adult children and I are headed to New York to be with our family during this time of great sadness
All of my best,
Tom
We find
At times like this, it is also painful that the American Red Cross won't allow anyone who had spent 6 months in Europe to give blood.
Or anyone who has used non-perscription intravenous drugs. Or has purchased the services of a call girl. Or anyone who has slept with such a person.
But unfortunately it is necessarly to exclude groups who are at high risk to blood-borne pathogens in order to protect the quality of the blood supply (the blood is tested, but no test is 100% accurate).
Yes they "discriminate," but it is in the classic definition of the word. The way you discriminate when you refuse to buy milk that is just past it's expiration date, even though it is entirely possible that the milk hasn't really spoiled yet. Maybe you believe that the Red Cross hates gay men and druggies and whoremongers... do you also believe that they hate people who vacation in Europe? What the #@!! do you want, a life where there are no unfortunate consequences to your decisions? A perfectly fair world?
Fortunately all over the nation people who can donate blood are lining up by the thousands to do so. If you cannot donate blood, perhaps you could at least donate money or time.
BTW, I would also say that at times like this it is a shame we don't have a good, mass produced blood substitute yet.
I want to firstly mention that I am encouraged to see general sentiments here lean towards not acting rashly/hastilly.
However, with the "obvious" finger leaning towards some sort of large terrorist organization, and particularly with news outlets spouting sketchy information linking various Arab organizations to this, I think it is important to consider just how accurate US intelligence can realistically be.
Here's an idea:
If you wanted to definatively turn international public opinion against the Arab world, or draw America into supporting Israeli actions against Palestinians, how would you do it..? Stage a terrorist attack that America could not possibly dismiss, perhaps?
I would like to start a discussion here which considers the possibility that the seemingly "obvious" culprits here, while convenient targets for cathartic retribution, might not have anything to do with the tragedies in NYC and DC.
(With all respect to those who have chosen careers in law enforcement, the FBI has had some terrible gaffs recently and this might be a usefull exercise..)
There is also the fact that one of the aircraft did a 270 degree turn before hitting its target. According to the morning radio report I was listening too, this is a difficult maneuver and almost fighter pilotish in its execution.
I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie