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Current WTC happenings: The FBI is searching ISPs with FISA warrants. Architects and civil engineers are starting to speculate on why the towers collapsed. Pictures: NASA, a powerful photoessay, newspaper headlines. Current investigation news: LA Times, NY Times, CNN. They're finally starting to mention casualty figures. Finally, bjb writes: "It isn't the hollywood blockbuster of a story, but I'm a daily reader of Slashdot, and I was on the 38th floor of the WTC 1 building when the first plane hit. Oh, and I was reading Slashdot at the time. You can read about my experience here. It was originally an email that I sent out to friends and family, but I was asked by NPR's Talk of the Nation to make it a web page."
Apparently ISP's are allowing the installation of Carnivore. They say it's only for a few days, but we'll see how long that claim holds up...
Seen any BadMarketing lately?
The most important responsibility of government is to protect the lives,
liberty, and property of its citizens. Our government has failed in this
regard.
We have failed by appeasing Islamic fanatics for 50 years, beginning
with the acceptance of the expropriation of oil wells which were made possible
by American science, technology, and engineering. We have continued this
appeasement by responding to previous acts of terror with "surgical strikes"
and "diplomatic pressure". We have acted as an "honest broker" between a
mostly-free and democratic nation - Israel - and the blood-thirsty thugs who
seek its destruction.
If there were any honor in their hearts, those that perpetrated this
appeasement would resign their offices and issue formal apologies to the
loved ones of the victims of this latest attack.
What America must do now, simply, is to stop the appeasement. We must not be
distracted by efforts to make it "more difficult" for terrorists to accomplish
their objectives. Human intelligence, improved airport security, and strategic
defence should all be pursued in time, when the current emergency is over.
In 1944, would there have been any point in making it "more difficult" for Hitler
to invade Britain?
What we must do now is to destroy the leaders of the organizations which seek to
destroy us, and to render incapicitated the governmental and military
institutions of the states which bring them aid and comfort. We can begin with
Afghanistan, then proceed with Iran, Sudan, and Yemen, assuming those regimes are
not toppled by their own people when they witness the destruction we inflict upon
the Taliban. Iraq, Syria, and Libya would be next.
Innocent civilians will be killed in this effort, as will American
servicemen. That is the nature of war. But, we did not start this war. We
just let it go on too long.
If humans are mostly water, and beer is mostly water, then humans must be mostly beer.
"They that would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin
As much as I repect the wisdom of our founding fathers, I respectfully submit that spouting 200 year old quotes about liberty is not helpful or applicable in the least.
Goofy, Geeky Gifts and More!
Where is the map detailing which buildings have fallen, which are damaged/unstable, which are cordoned off, and basic information about each? And to a lesser extent where is the map showing street closings, pedestrian access, mta access, civilian auto access? Not one agency has provided such maps. If anyone can point me to a map with Hagstrom or better details it would be appreciated. AA
I urge all hax0rs to do what you can to help. Do you have IRC logs of any suspicious discussions? Do you have backdoors to any servers that these people used? Obviously the NSA is not up to their job. This may be a good chance to use whatever security skills you may have to help.
Ask why they stood! The fact that any building was capable of taking a direct impact from a jetliner with a full load of fuel and then stand for over an hour (and allow lots of people to get out) is remarkable! We need to make sure we keep building them like that.
Trying to build skyscrapers aircraft-proof isn't feasible, I don't think. But building them capable of resisting that kind of trauma for at least a little while is.
This is only partly correct. Most of the Middle Eastern oil wells were actually initially exploited by the British, which is also evident from the fact that most of the area was either British protectorate or heavily influenced by the British.
The problem is that it has not and never been proved that they are actually guilty of this.
If you want to save the principles of Western civilization, how about adhering to them in the first place? Like, not bombing someone out of existence because he said he didn't like you and someone else killed a couple of thousand people in your country?
With reactions like this, you can bet that:
BTW As far as Syria is concerned, Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad has recently offered support to the US in combatting international terrorism. Now what, nuke 'em?
The problem is that America doesn't know what to do now. Throwing bombs around is probably not the best thing to do just because nobody can think of an alternative.
There is absolutely no reason to panic.
is to once again terrorize our own citizens. from anti-communist witch-hunts to asian-american ww2 camps to the generally accepted anti-Arab anti-Islamic trends of America for more than a decade, we still have a lot to learn, it seems.
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
The way I read the story of UAL Flight 93, passengers were about to regain control of the plane, and the last terrorist nosedived into a hill. A few people with small knives can't expect to control a planeload of passengers, if the passengers don't think cooperation will lead to survival.
Sure it is. Events like this open up the potential for society to give up liberties for perceived safety which probably isn't all that real. I for one worry about the future of our liberties in teh name of 'preventing another WTC'
I submit that these bastards could STILL get the weapons on board even with all the changes. No curb side checkin? LIke thats gonna make a DIFFERENCE? Its SO simple to make a weapon - just as a prisoner. Consider this:
Shaving kit - inside, one normal razor that uses a double edged blade. Blade installed, no spares. Elsewhere in your bag, a plastic or wooden handle of some kind with slot for blade, by itself or with other stuff that looks innocent. Maybe a little super glue. GO to a stall in a terminal bathroom. Take blade, insert in handle, glue in place. Slit someones throat when necessary and take over whatever vessel you're on. Think about it - you can probably come up with plenty on your own. Thats just one way and there are plenty others. These guys planned this for MONTHs as the reports of flight training indicate. You wouldn't even NEED to bring weapons with you - maybe one of your pals works IN THE TERMINAL past the checkpoints and cna give you a weapon of some kind. Banning plastic knives? OK - thats gonna help!
Face it folks - no matter WHAT happens, the only thing that could prevent something like this is sky marshals on EVERY flight in civilian clothes. And even then, they may not be able to overpower 5 guys with weapons (since shooting guns in the air is er, not a great idea)
So in short, I think our forefathers wisdom IS applicable and helpful to remind folks that we may be fooled into giving up liberties for supposed security that doesn't really exist
Top Most Bizarre/Disturbing Error Messages
Agreed. That the buildings lasted as long as they did is a testament to the engineers who designed and built them. Can we do better the next time around? Absolutely... we have so much more materials and design research under our belts.
Complaining that the buildings "only" stood for about an hour or so seems silly to me. Some are asking, "Why did the buildings collapse?" Well, I'm no civil engineer, but if I had to guess, I'd say it's because THEY WERE RAMMED WITH BIG HONKING PASSENGER JETS CHOCK-FULL-O-FUEL. Sounds like a plausible explanation to me.
I take drugs seriously.
Last night I saw a survivor interview that the guy ended with the statement, almost in tears, "Why can't you keep your stupid wars over there?" These events show that the war was NEVER just "over there". But if it's going to be fought with American casualties, then by God I want it fought in some desert in the middle of nowhere instead of downtown Manhattan. We have conquered dozens of nations, installed rational govenments and come home against far more organized opponents than this. We can do it again, and should. Islamic fundamentalism is just as dangerous to the world as National Socialism (Nazi) ever was. FORGET THE MISSILE DEFENSE SHIELD - WE HAVE GOT TO STOP THESE GUYS COLD ***NOW*** BEFORE THEY GET NUKES. If we don't, then in ten or twenty years instaed of four jetliners it's going to be FOUR CRATERS where San Francisco, Boston, Miami and Chicago used to be, delivered by boats smuggling plutonium instead of cocaine. Yes, I know we don't have a target today and we must not go off half cocked. But when we get a target, a plan and resources ready, we must GO!
Much effort seems focussed on judging the United States historically... various actions are cited as evidence of the justness of either side. Our (I am of US) record is mixed, and in many cases shamefull, but one important point should be noted:
In the years following 1945 the US, with sole posession of the atomic bomb, had the power to exert its will with relative impunity and exercised historically unprecedented restraint (at least it seems so to me). Is the rest of the world trying to make us regret this voluntary abdication of power? Would others have exercised such restraint? Which ones would have?
This point seems obvious, so my post is probably redundant, but I have not yet seen it.
Now that planes have been used themselves as weapons, and the passengers with them, I doubt there will be a high-jacking where they're aren't people like Glick and Barret, who are among the few passangers who apparently made sure that flight 93 crashed in PA woods, and not a national landmark.
The sentiment has been repeated over and over these past two days: "If I fall, the guy behind me will get him."
I hope that if such a day ever comes for me, I can get over my imminent death fast enough to do some good.
Nothing is more dangerous than someone who thinks they have nothing to lose.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
You cannot use diplomacy or negotiation with the forces allied against us because they have never used or responded to these mechanisms before. These forces understand what they implement - targetted destruction.
Its amazing how insipid most of the postings have been, but in the long run we are simply going to have to relearn that our safety and way of life is paid for and protected by blood, although there is probably no hope for the incessant mental masturbators posting their anthems of weakness on /.
If you have not yet donated blood, money, or service to the National Disaster Relief Fund, please consider doing so. I realize that request is obvious and redundant, but bear with me.
I can honestly say that the WTC, Pentagon, and Pennsylvania disasters have had a stronger effect on me than I would have ever imagined. I've been somewhat wigged out for the past two days, functioning on auto-pilot in order to get along with the business of life while I deal with feelings of horror, sadness, rage, and worst of all, helplessness.
Horror subsides - the media onslaught will always lead to de-sensitization. The images and video remain horrific, but somehow become lest horrifying through continued exposure. (I hope that makes sense...)
Sadness persists. It should. You should never be able to look back on September 11th and not feel sadness.
Helplessness is altogether different - it won't subside on its own. It requires action, and gone unchecked, can amplify every other negative emotion. This is why I finally got off my ass and donated last night. I realized that it's pointless to feel helpless, because it's so easy to help.
Give blood. If, like me, you can't give blood, give money. It's needed. If you don't have any money, go volunteer at your local blood center. If nothing else, pack an ice chest full of bottled water and hand it out to people waiting in line to donate blood! Do something. On September 11, 2002, when I ask you "What did you do to help one year ago?", I hope you have an answer that you're comfortable with.
So I've conquered helplessness. Horror will take care of itself. I welcome sadness as a sign of my own humanity.
That leaves only sweet, sweet rage.
Maybe today my sign-off poem ("they were all good people") will make more sense. I've been sending you only very short poems, but today it's something a bit longer (about a page), a poem written at least 20 years ago that seemed to come back to life today:
Making The World Safe For
Yankee, you say, thinking
you understand me, thinking
the 24-point-headline ideas
by which WE fail to understand YOU
will suffice for understanding US.
We are your problem as you are ours;
Let us understand one another.
It won't be easy. While your children starve,
Most of us are trying to loose weight.
We speak from a different part
of the palate, look with a different
openness -- some say veiledness; we have
an innocence -- or is it barbaric daze;
idealism -- some say bullying self-righteousness;
squeamishness about death and torture
if we have to see it...
I am a fat, squeamish Yankee, taught
to understand you by your T-shirt-like labels:
"Kill Me", "Pity Me", "Exploit Me", "Bribe Me",
"Enjoy Me", "Fear Me". I AM not,
CANnot be the thing you think you see,
for I am what you are: the understanding,
not what is misunderstood, which is
where I am absent from myself, and so
become what is easiest to be,
because it fits the headline script:
The Fat Greedy Satan whose crime is
to have failed to make everyone like me;
whose crime is to have dreamed well,
but not well enough; to have created a game
so good, it became the only game in town,
but not good enough to let everyone play;
so now the new game is: Destroy my game.
If all can't have it, let no one have it.
Understand us: We do not need your help
to destroy America. We need your help
to create it. It has not yet been.
Understand us, for we do not. You,
who hate us or condescend to us or toady to us,
you trap us in your sticky visions,
which, hardening, preserve us, your nightmare,
like flies in amber. We cannot be that.
Please understand us. We don't want to destroy you.
But how else can we free ourselves
from your vision?
Dean Blehert
dean@blehert.com
poems and paintings at
www.blehert.com
"It's even sadder than you think:
They were ALL good people."
and as a final note:
Yes, of course -- you can post or forward any poem I send you. Just leave my name with it and, preferably, email and/or url. But at least the name.
Dean
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable
editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his broadcast.
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of
the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in
to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about
the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why
do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the
moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.
You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not
once, but several times - and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store
window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are
breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home
to spend here. When the railways of France,* Germany and India were breaking
down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the
Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned
them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to
the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during
the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired
of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at
the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is
not one of those."
As I was thinking about recent events, another historic event crossed my mind, which you can read about here or here.
If you don't want to read Old Testament passages I linked above, here's the story:
King Hezekiah was sick, and when the king of Babylon received the news he sent envoys bearing gifts. Hezekiah then showed those visitors everything in the kingdom-- treasures, palaces, lands, defense stores. Nothing was kept hidden. Isaiah had divine knowledge of the ambassadors' visit, and came to question the king about it. Hezekiah admitted showing the Babylonians everything in the kingnom, and Isaiah pronounced sentence: the destruction of Hezekiah's kingdom, and the enslavement of his own descendants. Hezekiah's reply? "The word of the LORD you have spoken is good," Hezekiah replied. For he thought, "There will be peace and security in my lifetime."
What's the relevance? We've had eight years of weak foriegn policy, and at least two years of "legacy building" by national leaders more interested in their own skin than the good of the country. Like Hezekiah, they are willing to sell the whole nation down the river for a few more days of their own personal good luck. Just as in the days of Isaiah, the chickens do come home to roost.
They have rounds that, while risky, are intended for use within the situation of being in flight at altitude. Also considering at that point if the sky marshals are overpowered, you're back to the situation on tuesday- they're going to be armed for bear and use it at the drop of a hat.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Talk about projecting!!!
Won't you be suprised when you meet your maker, and it turns out that not only does God hate terrorists for killing in his name, but he also hates racial biggots who advocate the killing of innocents simply because of where they happen to live?
I didn't write this, I was sent it in an email, I don't know the original author. I am a muslim and I live in the US. I was born and raised in Canada with Indian background. I feel I need to help clear up what is true and what is not true with regards to Islam. Islam is a religion and a person practicing Islam is a muslim. There are five basics pillars of islam that any muslim should follow. All the guidance of what muslims should do is in the holy book called the Qu'ran or "Koran". Unfortunately, it seems that Bin Laden and others have taken religion as a vehicle to project their political hatred and motives. What he is doing, has nothing to do with Islam at all. Islam teaches people to be loving, peace giving, god fearing people. It teaches us to live with diversity, other religions, and humility. All the things that bin laden has said in the interviews and has done in the past are not words from the qu'ran but his words. And unfortunately the media and lack of real knowledge has blurred what is true and what is not. The statement by binladen that non-muslims cannot live in a muslim country is false - 100% false. India was ruled by muslims for 900 years, christians, muslims and hindus lived happily together. Same in palestine, before the partition, arab jews and arab muslims lived together for hundreds of years in peace. The main reasons for hatred and fighting the past 50 years was due more to political landscape than religion. Unfortunately, religion is a powerful tool that gets people motivated and people in power have used it as the lauch pad for fighting. Another item that binladen keeps talking about is Jihad or holy war. There is discussion of Jihad in the Qu'ran and when and why it is appropriate. It is never an offensive tactic. Jihad is only permitted when a muslim is being opppressed to practice their religion. Only real examples where Jihad may have been appropriate in recent years would be the Bosnian war where Bosnian muslims were being executed strictly based on their religion. But by no means, can a muslim country attack another country (muslim or not) as an act of Jihad. That is incorrect. the basics of islam are similar to christianity. Believe in one god. In arabic the word god is Allah. The god is the same between all three religions. jews, muslims and christians pray to the same god. That is very important to understand. But a true muslim is humble, not greedy, not arrogant and never shows jealousy. Tolerance, helping neighbours of any race, creed, or religion is the first thing. One of the five pillars of islam is to give to the poor. It's required, not a choice. As any religion or race, there are a small group of radicals that take any religion and bend it for their convenience. This seems to be the case with bin laden, saddam hussein, and others who have killed humans for their gain. None of these people will go to heaven as they believe they will. Jihad is not valid here nor does is it say to kill innocent children, parents, and siblings. Jihad only allows fighting among soliders, not civilians. Unfortunately these people are misled and doing very evil things that they will be punished for it. I'll stop rambling here..I hope this helps you guys get a better understand of what is going on. Just remember, Arab is a race..there are Arab Christians, Arab Jews and Arab muslims. At the moment radical arab muslims are causing trouble and doing things that are absolutely not tolerated in Islam at all. I hope these groups are stopped and removed. I was in NYC yesterday and I was there when it happened. I saw the second plane slam into the WTC 2. It was an experience I wish I had not witnessed. But we need to grow strong and not stereotype. best regards, a muslim in america.
"installed rational govenments"
This I think is the crux of of the matter. You haven't (and I am not being anti-American in this, Britain has made many of the same mistakes).
You gave support to Saddam Hussein in the Iran-Iraq war when your client government in the shape of the Shah was ousted.
You supported the Islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan (including Bin Laden, who allegedly was funded by the CIA) when it looked as though they could be a thorn in the side of the Soviet Union.
You can hardly expect the people of Chile to believe you installed rational governments when they had to put up with Pinochet for so many years.
Yes, this was an appalling crime, done by some appalling people. Some understanding of the history of the population from where the criminals came from might prevent such a crime happening again.
I suppose becoming a techno terrorist yourself is the remedy? Since when is terrorism condoned? Why are you targeting innocent middle eastern civilians? Terrorism is evil because it targets civilians. Trust me, you will not affect the terrorists in any way with your hacks. If you remember Bin Laden doesn't even have telephone access much less Internet.
This stupid terrorist mentality is what we have to fight both on our side and theirs. I live in the Richardson, TX (just outside of Dallas) and we have a few idiots prancing around here shooting up mosques. Fools.. no better than the damn terrorists. I feel sorry for the innocent Arab ****AMERICANS**** cuz of a witch hunt by a few ignorant trash bastards.
JOhn
Campaign for Liberty
- 100 Britons
- 78 Australians
- 100 Japanese
- 27 South Koreans
- 100 - 150 Mexicans
- 6 Irish
Those are the numbers given by CNN, but there have just got to be more from other nations. No Saudis, Isrealis, Chinese, or Indians are mentioned in the article, but it would seem likely that there were plenty of people around from those nations.Miko O'Sullivan
Could an airliner's skin be sufficiently toughened for Air Marshals to be able to use rubber bullets?
If not, tasers, those new infra-red stun devices the military are playing with - even a harpoon gun could be very effective against skyjackers.
A third option, that nobody seems to have mentioned - the pilots already have a "panic button" in the event of a skyjacking. This could easily also put the plane irreversibly on automatic pilot, or remote piloting, to ensure that the vehicle -could- not be used in this way, and WOULD land safely at the nearest suitable emergency runway.
There is a term, used in connection with hostile acts, and the response given. That term is "Dane Gold". It is said that in the times of King Ethelred the Unready, whenever the Danes landed a raiding fleet, King Ethelred would rather just pay them to go away. After a while, the Danes cottoned on to the fact that simply landing on a beach was an easy way to make money. And they made a lot of it.
Thus, today, when someone provides a means for a hostile force to repeatedly profit off exactly the same strategy, they are said to be paying "Dane Gold".
Provided it is even remotely possible for any terrorist organisation to use civilian aircraft as weapons against America, then America is vulnerable to paying that Dane Gold.
Mrs. Thatcher and Ronald Reagan adopted the philosophy of "the only ones paying are the other side". Often, this involved storming aircraft, with guns blazing. I, personally, have intense dislike for their hard-line attitudes. However, I'm not even going to question the fact that the legacy of their strategy was a massive reduction in such actions, in the air and at sea.
The only alternative I can see to their hardline tactics would be Air Marshals on every flight with enough disabling force to cripple any attempt, and some kind of "panic button" the pilot can use as a "last resort" to disable the controls beyond any person's ability to restore, in-flight.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
This is war buddy. The congress will be issuing a declaration of war within days or hours. War conditions change everything.
There is ample precedent to clamp down on civil liberties during time of war, dating back to the ancient romans. President Lincoln suspened Habeus Corupus and allowed writs of attainder during the civil war.
There comes a time when even idealogues need to get a grip.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Sounds like some bean counter had the influence on the design that an engineer should have. Could be the basis of a huge class action wrongful death suit.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Last night I saw something I was hoping not to see on the news -- acts of violence against Arabic/Islamic-Americans. I would hope that no one from this forum would be so narrow minded, but please people, lets not forget what happened after Columbine. I live in Colorado and know what it's like to have a community's anger directed in my direction in the aftermath of a tragedy (I was openly harassed on the streets for several weeks afterwards), and I can only imagine that it will be much worse for those in the Arabic communities of the US, as Columbine doesn't even compare to this tragedy. Please remember - it's the terrorists who were involved that are to blame, not every Arabic person out there.
I'm a Canadian, but I've been as shaken up by all this as if I were American. The horror of what happened is independent of nation -- everybody (or almost everybody) on the entire planet was hurt by this. I can't imagine what the people in New York and Washington are going through, but I know it's a horrifying thing without anything resembling rational explantion.
Here in Edmonton, all flags are flying at half mast -- not just on government buildings, but anybody who has a flag is doing the same. In the Provincial Legislature Building, there are books that people are signing to express their condolences to America and tell you that you're not alone. A moment of silence has been recommended for 10am today.
Similar things are happening around the world.
And it matters. I was talking to an Arizonan friend of mine last night. We got to talking about all the ways the world is reaching out, about how people are trying to express their shock and horror and outrage all over the world, and she cried. She told me to tell everyone I could that it matters -- the books are not being signed in vain, the half-mast flags are being seen, the sympathy is felt.
It's as important as donating to the Red Cross.
-Erf C.
Cthulu always calls collect...
Has anyone read Harry Browne's article?
It's here:http://www.antiwar.com/orig/browne2.html
His homepage is here:http://www.harrybrowne.org
It will take you less that 2 minutes to read.
Actually, there are a lot of funds for those people. The problem is that dumping money on them doesn't help them. To a large extent, it's their government that prevents them from having prosperity.
The real solution, if you want to know the truth, is to invade their country, remove the idiotic government, and institute free elections after a period of stabilizing and building their economy.
Unfortunately, that is also called imperialism.
To those who are willing to be 'inconvenienced' at the aiport in order to be safe... No amount of inconveniencing will give you the safety you crave.
Repeat after me...
No amount of 'inconveniencing' will give me the safety I crave.
Repeat it over and over as a mantra until you achieve enlightenment.
I could learn martial arts well, with a bunch of buddy's, get onto the plane, kill a few people with some well placed jabs, and take control. Would you be willing to be manacled to prevent this? You can make knives quickly out of many things. Take a stiff plastic or metal box for example. Are you going to make people strip before they get on the plane? I'm sure someone more imaginative than I can come up with scenarios in which even being stripped and manacled would not be enough.
There is no security in the direction you wish to go. As Benjamin Franklin said "Those who would trade liberty for security will get and deserve neither.".
The only way to prevent these attacks is to decrease the motivation to perform them. This is done by being a nice country, and by being implacably and harshly punitive in our response to such attacks.
I will be traveling by air soon, and I intend to make up some leaflets to distribute at the airport about this. It's either that, or get upset at being patted down and create a scene. I think the leaflet approach to venting my frustrations is much more constructive.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
Firstly I would like to say that what has happened is unbelieveably terrible, and my heart really goes out to all those people that have been affected by this terrible terrorist act.
What saddens me is the response of many Americans, including some on Slashdot. The people who did this thing are crazy, insane, evil people, I don't think there is any doubt in anyone's mind about that. However, declaring all out war on another country - a war in which many innocent lives will be lost - is not an action to be taken lightly.
Americans don't have direct experience of war in their own country, or until now, the devastating effects of terrorism. I remember watching the Gulf war on CNN, and myself and the people with me being absolutely shocked by the commentators making comments about how beautiful the falling missiles were. Many of those missiles were falling on innocent people, and many families will have been destroyed by those missiles, just as many families lives will have been destroyed by the events of the last few days. I am not saying that the Gulf war was wrong, just that a war like that is really just as sad as what's happened with the WTC, when many lives are lost because of a few evil, crazy men (Saddam and his cronies).
And it has always amazed me that one of the principal sources of funding for the IRA terrorist organisation has been New York. If there is one good thing to come from this, I hope it is that funding for the IRA from NY will now stop, now that New Yorkers have direct experience of the evils of terrorism.
My plea to Americans is, stop viewing your interventions into the rest of the world like a Holywood movie, with Americans as the goodies and the foreigners as the baddies. Innocent people, good people, families and children are destoryed by war and terrorist acts. So please don't let your reaction to this be "let's nuke Afganistan". It pains me to say it, but if that's your attitude, you're not much more civilized than a crazy, evil terrorist.
Islamic fundamentalism is just as dangerous to the world as National Socialism (Nazi) ever was.
Be careful -- there may be truth in what you say, but it can be misinterpreted.
This is a good place to point out that Islamic leaders around the world have condemned the attack as inhuman and un-islamic. American Islamic leaders in particular have directed their followers to donate blood, money, to volunteer in the emergency response and to assist law enforcement in any way they can. It is also very likely that some of the victims of this crime were muslims themselves.
The US press has not picked up on this yet, but the foreign press (e.g. The London times) is starting to to report the beginning of a wave of hate crimes in America against Muslims. I even heard one congressinal pinhead libelling Islam as a totalitarian ideology masquerading as a religion. These developments are disgraceful and unworthy.
The real division is not between religions, but between people who believe there can be civilized coexistence between people who have different viewpoints, and those who believe that one side can only enjoy freedom at the expense of the other. Osama bin Laden is one of the latter, and he deivides into two camps: the Christian/Jewish side and the Muslim side. People spreading religious or ethnic hatred are, in effect agreeing with him and doing his work; their personal feelings towards him are simply petty tribalism.
Make no mistake: America was targeted because we are a free, open and pluralistic society where muslims can coexist peacefully with christians, jews and even atheists. This marks us out for special hatred,and with good reason: our success and preeminence in the world shows that all ideologies of intolerance preaching freedom for one viewpoint through the oppression of others are lies.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
"This is the crux of a very difficult debate. Which should the government focus on: Protecting us, or protecting our civil liberties? In cases like this, there's not really a way to do both. "
Be actually vigilant. It seems really silly that there isn't some kind of way to determine say if a plane is hijacked. I imagine this: have a deadman's switch of sorts that needs a personal key/access code tied to various vital functions of the pilot like blood pressure/eeg reedings and a voice access code. If the pilot gets bumped off then no go. Or if the physical code is stolen it's a no go.
As far as catching people I believe there are certain risks. Personally I see unfortunate parallels between actions of Adolf Hitler with his reasoning of using emergency actions and what could happen if they actually did half the stuff the radicals are calling for.
"'ve been stunned by the number of people bitching about how the US is going to become a police state, how their liberties have been taken away because they can't carry Smith & Wesson onto the plane, etc. "
My personal opinion guns don't really matter if the government wants to do you in. It's just a matter of unmbers. You could have an ak-47 and it still wouldn't do you any good if they want you dead.
"It's a difficult balance, and some people will always be upset at where the scales fall. For now, let's just accept what protection our government is trying to give us, and complain about it later after we've eliminated whatever threat has caused this"
My personal big beef is that people claim that this "is our Pearl Harbor" and "an act of War" unfortunately I don't buy that. Essentially what you are dealing with is a non-state sponsored activity done buy a group of essentially religious fanatics. That is hardly a good thing.
What I fear is that some people are going to convince the president that we should just invade and raze any county's populace who dosn't toe the line. I also believe that any serious attack on people carrying on activities which most of their religion consider sarcred will descend the country into millions of tit for tat squabbles. Quite frankly these guys could have really done something a great deal worse.
For example the conspiracy theorist's favorites like anthrax being spewed out of a truck at rush hour in times square. Or the ever popular nuke in a briefcase senario.
I guarantee that is what would happen within at least 5 years of any serious nonthoughtful unilateral action against a blanket group. This has to be a precision strike against one man or a handful of men. Preferably in some sort of trial where he at least has an attempt at justice. I believe that there would be overwhelming evidence to convict Bin Ladin quite handily.
The death of one man is a tragedy; the death of a million is a statistic --Joseph Stalin
Where's the proof, just one indy media article? How did this person find out that this is old footage, specifically from 1991 invasion of Kuwait? Why has no other news organization (big or small) caught this fact? Salon had pictures of Palestinians cheering, were they lying too?
make world, not war
When this happened, I had a lot of thoughts going through my head... but found it difficult to clearly say what I felt...
So I will leave that to someone esle (who is much more qualified to do so):
>Subject: It Doesn't Have to Be Like This
>Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:14:00 -0400
Death, Downtown
Dear friends,
I was supposed to fly today on the 4:30 PM American Airlines flight from LAX to JFK. But tonight I find myself stuck in L.A. with an incredible range of emotions over what has happened on the island where I work and live in New York City.
My wife and I spent the first hours of the day -- after being awakened by phone calls from our parents at 6:40am PT -- trying to contact our daughter at school in New York and our friend JoAnn who works near the World Trade Center.
I called JoAnn at her office. As someone picked up, the first tower imploded, and the person answering the phone screamed and ran out, leaving me no clue as to whether or not she or JoAnn would live.
It was a sick, horrible, frightening day.
On December 27, 1985 I found myself caught in the middle of a terrorist incident at the Vienna airport -- which left 30 people dead, both there and at the Rome airport. (The machine-gunning of passengers in each city was timed to occur at the same moment.)
I do not feel like discussing that event tonight because it still brings up too much despair and confusion as to how and why I got to live... a fluke, a mistake, a few feet on the tarmac, and I am still here, there but for the grace of...
Safe. Secure. I'm an American, living in America. I like my illusions. I walk through a metal detector, I put my carry-ons through an x-ray machine, and I know all will be well.
Here's a short list of my experiences lately with airport security:
* At the Newark Airport, the plane is late at boarding everyone. The counter can't find my seat. So I am told to just "go ahead and get on" -- without a ticket!
* At Detroit Metro Airport, I don't want to put the lunch I just bought at the deli through the x-ray machine so, as I pass through the metal detector, I hand the sack to the guard through the space between the detector and the x-ray machine. I tell him "It's just a sandwich." He believes me and doesn't bother to check. The sack has gone through neither security device.
* At LaGuardia in New York, I check a piece of luggage, but decide to catch a later plane. The first plane leaves without me, but with my bag -- no one knowing what is in it.
* Back in Detroit, I take my time getting off the commuter plane. By the time I have come down its stairs, the bus that takes the passengers to the terminal has left -- without me. I am alone on the tarmac, free to wander wherever I want. So I do. Eventually, I flag down a pick-up truck and an airplane mechanic gives me a ride the rest of the way to the terminal.
* I have brought knives, razors; and once, my traveling companion brought a hammer and chisel. No one stopped us. Of course,
I have gotten away with all of this because the airlines consider my safety SO important, they pay rent-a-cops $5.75 an hour to make sure the bad guys don't get on my plane. That is what my life is worth -- less than the cost of an oil change.
Too harsh, you say? Well, chew on this: a first-year pilot on American Eagle (the commuter arm of American Airlines) receives around $15,000 a year in annual pay.
That's right -- $15,000 for the person who has your life in his hands. Until recently, Continental Express paid a little over $13,000 a year. There was one guy, an American Eagle pilot, who had four kids so he went down to the welfare office and applied for food stamps -- and he was eligible!
Someone on welfare is flying my plane? Is this for real? Yes, it is. So spare me the talk about all the precautions the airlines and the FAA is taking. They, like all businesses, are concerned about one thing -- the bottom line and the profit margin.
Four teams of 3-5 people were all able to penetrate airport security on the same morning at 3 different airports and pull off this heinous act? My only response is -- that's all?
Well, the pundits are in full diarrhea mode, gushing on about the "terrorist threat" and today's scariest dude on planet earth -- Osama bin Laden. Hey, who knows, maybe he did it. But, something just doesn't add up.
Am I being asked to believe that this guy who sleeps in a tent in a desert has been training pilots to fly our most modern, sophisticated jumbo jets with such pinpoint accuracy that they are able to hit these three targets without anyone wondering why these planes were so far off path?
Or am I being asked to believe that there were four religious/political fanatics who JUST HAPPENED to be skilled airline pilots who JUST HAPPENED to want to kill themselves today?
Maybe you can find one jumbo jet pilot willing to die for the cause -- but FOUR? Ok, maybe you can -- I don't know. What I do know is that all day long I have heard everything about this bin Laden guy except this one fact -- WE created the monster known as Osama bin Laden!
Where did he go to terrorist school? At the CIA!
Don't take my word for it -- I saw a piece on MSNBC last year that laid it all out. When the Soviet Union occupied Afghanistan, the CIA trained him and his buddies in how to commits acts of terrorism against the Soviet forces. It worked! The Soviets turned and ran. Bin Laden was grateful for what we taught him and thought it might be fun to use those same techniques against us.
We abhor terrorism -- unless we're the ones doing the terrorizing.
We paid and trained and armed a group of terrorists in Nicaragua in the 1980s who killed over 30,000 civilians. That was OUR work. You and me. Thirty thousand murdered civilians and who the hell even remembers!
We fund a lot of oppressive regimes that have killed a lot of innocent people, and we never let the human suffering THAT causes to interrupt our day one single bit.
We have orphaned so many children, tens of thousands around the world, with our taxpayer-funded terrorism (in Chile, in Vietnam, in Gaza, in Salvador) that I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised when those orphans grow up and are a little whacked in the head from the horror we have helped cause.
Yet, our recent domestic terrorism bombings have not been conducted by a guy from the desert but rather by our own citizens: a couple of ex-military guys who hated the federal government.
From the first minutes of today's events, I never heard that possibility suggested. Why is that?
Maybe it's because the A-rabs are much better foils. A key ingredient in getting Americans whipped into a frenzy against a new enemy is the all-important race card. It's much easier to get us to hate when the object of our hatred doesn't look like us.
Congressmen and Senators spent the day calling for more money for the military; one Senator on CNN even said he didn't want to hear any more talk about more money for education or health care -- we should have only one priority: our self-defense.
Will we ever get to the point that we realize we will be more secure when the rest of the world isn't living in poverty so we can have nice running shoes?
In just 8 months, Bush gets the whole world back to hating us again. He withdraws from the Kyoto agreement, walks us out of the Durban conference on racism, insists on restarting the arms race -- you name it, and Baby Bush has blown it all.
The Senators and Congressmen tonight broke out in a spontaneous version of "God Bless America." They're not a bad group of singers!
Yes, God, please do bless us.
Many families have been devastated tonight. This just is not right. They did not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE for him! Boston, New York, DC, and the planes' destination of California -- these were places that voted AGAINST Bush!
Why kill them? Why kill anyone? Such insanity...
Let's mourn, let's grieve, and when it's appropriate let's examine our contribution to the unsafe world we live in.
It doesn't have to be like this...
Yours,
Michael Moore
mmflint@aol.com
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
Hey, don't overlook the fact that some Atheists may have been killed in this as well. Read the following and consider this: If religion was not a factor, would we be in this mess?
"Attacks like these are not a good thing because Muslims live all over the world and Muslims may have been killed," Mr. Anwar said hesitantly. By his reckoning, Americans were enemies of Afghanistan, as were Jews and Christians. He thought about this a bit more and retracted it partially. "There must have been all kinds of people in the building, not just bad Jews but good Jews, not just bad Christians but good ones." He remembered something he had learned in his madrassa, or religious school. "It is un-Islamic to kill innocent people," he said.
Learn a little history please, christianity has certainly been spread at the barrel of a gun.
Wake up and smell the coffee, there is no God. The sooner we stop believing in magical fairy people the sooner we can start living in peace.
If the federal government could get advanced warning of future attacks, and save lives-- why not enforce Carnivores permanently on ISPs?
...
Carnivore, and Echelon were first predicated on fears of terrorist activity-- fears that were dismissed by civil libertarians as somewhat vacuous in the past.
...
For one, I believe that the arguments against Carnivore and Echelon were less predicated on the lack of a threat, but on how they were being used (or could be used in the absence of any oversight and surpervision). Carnivore, for instance (leaving Echelon, in whatever degree it actually exists aside), has problems in its wide reaching grasp, and I believe that less people have a problem with it existing as a properly implimented "wire tapping device" (needing to get a court order, etc.), than with the fact that it seemed to collect data outside the scope of what it should be looking for (ie. collecting data on people outside the scope of the court order neccessary for a Wiretap to be put in place).
As far as physical barriers, yes it is a sad fact that more of them will probably be created. That is unfortunately the case when you have the sad reality of what happened to contend with.
I am also willing to be that we will return to the 70's when there was an armed U.S. Marshal on all commerical airflights. Surprise, we aren't safe. These are conditions that have only existed in states under seige such as Israel (it is stardard policy for all ElAl flights to include at least one trained marksman).
If you caught most of the news coverage on the first day (and I think most people did), you might remember pictures of Palestinians dancing in the streets and celebrating the attack. Iraq also had people dancing in the streets, and the latest reports from the FBI are that the terrorists had passports from the United Arab Emerates, and Egypt, and that the rogue Saudi financer Osama Bin Ladin, who is still being hiddin in Afghanistan is behind this, and people wonder why there is no stability in the Middle-East and why there is no peace?
The latest estimates from the FBI are that the attacks may have been in the planning for up to 18 months. I'm still waiting for a second attack as I sit in the shadow of the Empire State Building writing this, and will probably go home soon since while we have a Net link, we have no phones (my wife slightly further up town has phones but no net), and we aren't expected to get service till Monday since there are so many other priorities and emergencies being taken care of.
I apologize for the ranting but I'll try to get back to topic...
Opposition to the growth of surveillance should pursist. It is sad that we may have a growing need for more invasive options, but there must (or at least SHOULD) be ways to balance even that against the current justifiable (as you say and I agree) fears.
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
But we as a society should make it clear that when the medium is terror, we aren't interested in the story.
I think that *all* of the people (some of whom may well become the victims of actions of people like bin Laden and others) have a right to hear both sides of the story, rather than accepting the construction of the facts disseminated by 'the authorities' (or whoever would make the decisions in your scheme). What's to stop any voice that differs too markedly from the government view being silenced with a false accusation of violent intent?
If someone wants to kill me, I'd like to know why, and judge them as a dangerous loon for myself, instead of having 'Daddy' do it for me.
The normal operations of the media are by no means completely defensible, but at least there is *some* freedom of expression there. You wouldn't want to end up like Italy, where Berlusconi controls both the government media and his own private media empire...
deus does not exist but if he does
At least one of the coverages i saw, I have seen palestinians shouting: "thank you Bin-Laden". I don't think they were shouting bin-laden's name in 1991.
Also, Israely television reports about foreign reporters in PA territories being forced by threats to their life to discard coverage of joy on the street. (This also comes from reuters, but i don't have a link). One of the networks responded saying that safety of the reporters comes before the coverage of truth.
So not only some images of joy you see are true, they are only small part of the celebrations going on in arab countries and in palestinian territories. I've seen ordinary Egyptians asked on the street, and most of them said US had this coming and they thank bin-laden for this.
Go figure, egypt gets billions of dollars of support from US.
Oh, come on... and I suppose that 200-year-old document (your vaunted constitution) is irrelevant to modern discussions too?
Christ, by paying a little more attention to its own constitution, America could have avoided such things as the DMCA (this *is* Slashdot, after all)... and more on topic - could have avoided contributing to the creation of bin Laden, Pinochet and the like.
Sorry, this turned into a flame. But I think Franklin's statement is right on the money right now as the US and the rest of the world seeks a new balance between safety and liberty.
<sarcasm> Or perhaps you'd rather just turn the whole thing over to the Director of the CIA. He can tell us what freedoms will be allowed to persist in the post-WTC era. </sarcasm>
In 1942 after the attack on Pearl Harbor, over 100 thousand people of Japanese ancestry (most were American citizens) were forcibly removed from their homes on the west coast to concentrations camps located in desolate locations. Such was the hysteria and fear at that time. This was the worst abuse of our Constitution in the history of the USA.
Robert Wilson (Nobel prize winner and 1st Director of Fermilab/FNAL) was asked at a congressional hearing whether the acelerator had any value in terms of national security. Wilson replied "...It has nothing to do directly with defending our country except to make it worth defending."
America's strength and determination is considerable. We will defend this country. However, we must make sure that it is a country worth defending.
. I'd love to see some hackers get into that bank account and not only trace who he's been paying what to (I think we can do it better than the CIA)
Ok.. here's my suggestion.. turn off your VCR, and your TV, remove your head from your fucking ass, and get a clue.
He uses strong crypto enabled satellite phones.. He has/had ex-US military advisors working for him. I genuinely doubt you're going to just Sub7 his box and save the world. Hehe, but good luck on that. And god speed.
This is a touchy topic, so stop reading here if speculation about the legal implications will bother you.
Time and again, I hear politicians from the mayor of NY to congress to the president refering to this as an act of war (see the president's most recent remarks).
There's a problem with this. If this was an act of war, it cannot, by definition be a federal crime, no?
What's more, if this was an act of war, anyone we "capture" is a prisoner of war, and we must obey the terms of the Geneva Convention and other international treaties. They will have to be re-patriated after the conflict, or brought before an international court for war crimes, NOT tried for federal crimes in the U.S.
Now, I can see the attack on the WTC being called out as a war crime, but if we treat this as an act of war, the Pentagon was a valid military target, and the attack on that building was legal (the point could even be made that Bin Laden had made it quite clear that he had declared war on the U.S. before the attack, unlike the Japanese who had tried but failed to do so before Pearl Harbor). The use of a commercial airline to do it is obviously not acceptable, but I'm not sure how much weight that will carry in a war crimes tribunal.
What I'm trying to say is that we've painted ourselves a very restrictive map here. There's no such thing as "murder" in the criminal sense in an act of war. There's only international treaty on the rules of war.
Now, I'm not a lawyer (I hate the acronym), and I could be wildly off-base here, but is this just short-sightedness or have we decided that the support that we get from the international community as a result of an act of war outweighs our desire to bring these criminals (soldiers?) to trial? Or, are we just planning to ignore international law, and bring anyone we capture to trial anyway?
People were complacent - because they knew billions was being spent on Carnivore & Echelon for just this sort of problem.
Terrorists know they are being looked for by Carnivore and will get around it by other measures.
When not planning face to face - they would use personal couriers.
Perhaps give mobile for single message when required - just using message - go with plan a / b or abort.
I have always said - terrorism is just the excuse they use, the US to raise funds for Carnivore - the UK to justify R.I.P. bill - to spy on the people.
Government want a surveillance society.
The simple solution to trademark and domain name problem is hidden by authorities - WIPO.org.uk
If this were true, Arab newspapers would denounce CNN. There would be Arab news sites on the Web denouncing this.
This is very, very obvious. Unfortunately, at Indymedia they like building myths about the evils of the mainstream media, and then lots of other myths that follow from these myths about the media.
Quite often it's very, very obvious. Just like this case.
Terrorists can't threaten a country's freedom and democracy. Only lawmakers and voters can do that.
Well, being as *I'm* not the structural engineer, my guess is that yes, the Tower itself is structurally sound as a tower, but the earth that it's standing on is not, thereby making the whole thing not structurally sound. Again, this is just conjecture as I don't know what the real official definition is of "structurally sound".
Regardless, the building did not fall down immediately. The building retained its structural integrity for approx 1hr. My understanding from what was discussed was that if there was no fire, it would have stayed standing the whole time.
*And*, forget ye not, "stopping tons of jet fuel from burning" includes the FIRE RETARDANT that is put on all the steel beams. Not just the fire *extinguishing* system. There's more to it than just sprinklers.
Call it my contrarian nature, but amidst all the usual self-centered-libertarian-police-state-paranoia, I feel compelled to point out that loss of privacy is not necessarily loss of liberty. Nowhere is it guaranteed even in the US constitution; never has it been established that privacy actually produces a freer society; and in practice the idea that you can actually have privacy is a total myth. David Brin makes a good case in his for all of this and more in his controversial The Transparent Society (chapter one available here). His core arguement is for complete transparency - that all citizens should be allowed to observe the activities of individuals, government, and business - rather than the alternative of those having the power to do so using surveillance to their private advantage. While you'll almost certainly have objections, it's well worth consideration, and it's always worth it to look at things from an alternative perspective.
---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?
Two Points:
One, I think it an absurd trvialization to classify curbside check-in as an essential liberty.
Two, you are indulging in fatuously binary thinking: these terrorists could not have been stopped by any but the most draconian security measures, therefore all security measures are useless.
There was a period in the 70's when planes were being hijacked on a monthly if not weekly basis. These hijackings stopped (for the most part) when airlines universely implemented the security measures we are now familiar with, including the placment of armed sky marshalls on random flights.
Just because there is a small pool of terrorists you cannot deter doesn't mean you can ignore the much larger pool of potential hijackers that you can deter.
I also believe that taking over airplanes with box cutters and razor blades has just become a lot more unlikely. You can intimidate people with very simple weapons as long folks beleive that by going along with you, they have good odds of surviving. Most hijackings have ended with many of the passengers being safely released, so folks were reasonably reluctant to challenge hijackers despite outnumbering them 20 to 1. This week's disaster has re-written the hijacking "script" so
I suspect that the next hijacker who tries to take over a plane with anything less then explosives or automatic weapons is going to get beaten to death.
There have been Islamic mosques attacked in the US by vigilantees. Two incidents in my metro area today.
r ie s2/469307_mosque.html
r ie s2/469117_mosque12e.html
http://www.dallasnews.com/attack_on_america/sto
http://www.dallasnews.com/attack_on_america/sto
I promised an Islamic friend at work that if there begin to be efforts to profile Islamic/Arabic members of the population(as there was during WW2 with the Japanese population, and some of them even sent off to camps) that at least myself and my household would vehemntly protest to anyone who would listen and a few who wouldn't.
I fear this is just the beginning.
Steven
-- I have marked myself unwilling to moderate-- I don't have other accounts to artificially inflate the karma of
On second thought, it is worth my time: there is value in pointing out poor reasoning whereever it exusts, so be prepared to see your post ripped post to shreds by very simple logical arguments, instead of the drivel you seem to spout so easily...
1st example: you state your opinion that "religion is a method of brainwashing." I think it would be quite a bit more accurate to state that "religion as a whole is believing that there are higher powers than mortal mankind", and that "any given religion is a attempt by people to put rational language to that belief." By the way, the belief in some kind of God seems to be a core part of most people's world view, although not yours. At least in my case, coercion was not been part of the process that led me to be a believer.
You continue: "Yet everyday we pass buildings built by those who are essentially cultists. These buildings a meeting halls for people who believe an internally inconsistent set of beliefs that culminates in an omnipotent being creating the entire universe, for humanity, specifically their fellow believers, who then gets petulent when his tiny creations don't worship in the exact ways specified..." Does it occur to you that people may have an internally and externally consistent beliefs, and that many people (myself included) do not believe God to be petulant in any way shape or form, else that being would not be a God whom we could believe in.
By the way, being in a particular type of building (specifically a church) does not define a person as being a cultist any more than saying that using a computer automagically makes a person a technologist or being in a automobile car automagically makes a person into a race car driver. Since our country has laws based on a the U.S. Constitution, you are free to disbelieve, but I am also free to believe, and practice my beliefs so long as they remain within the constraints of societal law. Most "cults" do not remain within those constraints.
Again, I quote from your post: "A bunch of sick people acting in direct contrast to what a rational view of reality would suggest is NOT something we should sit back and accept as normal." Oops.. You just committed another logical fallacy by excluding the possibility that rational people can also be religious, another logical fallacy, like saying "the sky is blue, my eyes are blue, therefore anyone whose eye's aren't blue can't possibly see the sky..."
It is just as much brainwashing and dishonest indoctrination to to insist that our educational systems teach that atheism is somehow more rational and therefore "good", "right", or "normal" than religious belief, is it not? I think most people who know me would say that I am at least as intelligent and rational as the next person, and I can easily be proven to be a useful member of society, even though I believe in God.
You continue "This indoctrination hurts us all by raising people unable to cope with reality without retreating into their fantasy world. It raises people who act in a manner that is insane when viewed by someone who hasn't been similarly brainwashed." Hmm. I wonder what you would say if you were trapped in the WTC explosions and I was the only person who could help you get down the stairs and told you that it was my "God-given duty to help you get out of the building alive." Would you so glibly accuse me of retreating into fantasy then? True beliefs don't allow a retreat-- they obligate the owner of those beliefs to act.
I guess my point is that people who promote terrorism by mingling religion in with it are sick, not every person who believes in any religion, anywhere.
Contrary to your own beliefs (which are guaranteed to be at least partially false on the basis of logic: you can't disprove the existence of God, can you?), hatred is the enemy of all people, not religion. Seeking to control or make a profit by taking advantage of others is the enemy of all people, and I will readily and sadly acknowledge that many so-called churches and preachers are so corrupted that they fail in their essential mission: teaching people to co-operate peacefully in lifting their fellow man. This one message is the essence and goal of almost every major and minor religious system of thought.
So if you don't mind, I'll try to become a better person based on my beliefs, and work with and teach my family and friends who are like minded to be good people, and you? All I can suggest is that if you want to preach atheism, you at least learn to do a better, more logical job of it.
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
The terrorist supposedly told the passengers they also had a bomb. It seems that for the 3 planes that hit the passengers probably didn't know they were going on a crash course, and were told they would not be harmed. Given that they were probably hoping for the best. Supposedly the 4th plane crashed in PA b/c the passengers DID find out they would be screwed either way.
Personally I think the terrorists have shot themselves in the foot, they've made it extremely unhealthy to hijack a plane. Before the 11th the best move when hijacked was to sit tight, most hostages made it out alive. Now? Now we have to assume that they're going to use the plane as a bomb, that by doing nothing we're killing ourselves and thousands of innocents.
If I end up on a hijacked plane I'm not going to sit back and let myself die and kill thousands in the process, before I would have sat back and hoped for the best, because that was the sensible thing to do. Now the sensible thing to do is to fight, kill them before they kill you. Personally, I wouldn't give tuppence for the life of the next guy that tries to hijack a plane.
Al.The Daily ACK - Eclectic posts by yet another hacker
As an American, I plan to give blood in aid of the victims in New York. I cried when I saw the two towers collapse yesterday. But I quite simply refuse to become another victim of American bigotry just because I'm half arab, and was raised a muslim. I am NOT going to be part of the crowd that grows fearful of every attendant at 7-Eleven, or every taxi-cab driver in New York or Los Angeles.
Part of the reason that the World Trade Centers were bombed is because Terrorists fail to realize that not everyone in America are soldiers. They feel that the acts of any government justify violence against its citizens.
By having fear and suspicion in anyone who is different, our mentality is no different than that of a terrorist. And if we as a people are violent towards others uninvolved that live in this country, we are no worse than the terrorists themselves.
So please... please realize America not as just one nation, but one nation of separate, different people united. So, as Christians, Jews, Muslims, anyone... pray. For those that do not pray, simply hope. Just keep your hatred saved for the perpitrators, not those who have no choice on their heritage. Or quite simply, don't hate at all...
Okay, I'm done with what I have to say... Feel free to reply to me and flame me to your heart's content.
Mark El-Wakil
seventhcycle@yahoo.com
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
50 Microsoft Exchange CALs
35 Microsoft SQL CALs
50 Microsoft Office Professional licenses
15 PC Anywhere licenses
Trouble getting hardware? That I can understand.
Trouble getting licenses?? That I cannot even comprehend under the present circumstance.
Screw the licenses. Get a CD burner - sort it out later.
Or :
Call Microsoft. Find Bill if you have to. Say "We're from the RED CROSS. We NEED X many licenses. NOW." Any company with any sort of humanity will do so, without argument.
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
From The (London) Daily Telegraph (14 Sep 2001):
(Opinion piece by John Keegan)
...
"There are other current movements of which to take note, as yet insubstantial but certain to gather concrete form. One is the retreat of human rights lawyers from the forefront of public life. America in a war mood will have no truck with tender concern for constitutional safeguards of the liberty of its enemies. The other, which ordinary Americans will have to learn to bear, is interference with their liberty of instant electronic access to friends and services.
"The World Trade Centre outrage was co-ordinated on the internet, without question. If Washington is serious in its determination to eliminate terrorism, it will have to forbid internet providers to allow the transmission of encrypted messages - now encoded by public key ciphers that are unbreakable even by the National Security Agency's computers - and close down any provider that refuses to comply.
"Uncompliant providers on foreign territory should expect their buildings to be destroyed by cruise missiles. Once the internet is implicated in the killing of Americans, its high-rolling days may be reckoned to be over."
Its always been preached, and I always believed, that hatred came from ignorance. Cruelty is only possible if you never think of your victims as human beings. From day to day insensitivity, to political propaganda, hatred has depended on ignorance. :( Its only been true of westerners like me who thought these people were too barbaric and ignorant to get under the skin of our society and destroy us.
Or not. The terrorists knew America. They knew procedures and policies for hijackings. They knew how to fly a commercial airliner. They had classmates who are Americans. They would have to have been in the States a reasonable amount of time, and interacted with Americans every day they were there, up until the final moments when they told their helpless cargo to call their loved ones.
They knew us, they knew how we westerners think. They were not ignorant. They knew there were human beings involved. Yet they were capable of this atrocity anyway.
So much for 'tolerance through education'.
So much of what we all believed is wrong.
Evil can't be ended with education. Evil is evil.
-- INTX Grouch. http://www.midnightblue.net