Loki Goes Postal

xwred1 writes: "Loki has announced a new port today, up to now known as "Secret Project Q": They are going Postal! Press release is here, and the game product page/overview is here. Seems to be a healthy sign of life from Loki, they are obviously still getting good things done despite the chapter 11."

Comments

Linux and Video

[Wind_Walker]

Now that we're getting more OpenGL games than ever coming out for Linux, I think it might be a good time to address the problem of video card hardware support.

Many of us don't have 3D accelerators that work under Linux. While I'd like to have my hardware working under Linux, I realize that it's probably not going to happen any time this millenium.

So instead, I have a suggestion. Mesa currently has only one mode for software rendering--high quality. Is there any way that a low-quality software rendering mode could be introduced into Mesa? How difficult would it be to add this to the libraries, maybe have it switched on/off by an environment variable? How much of a slow-down would it introduce into the libraries, by having forked logic like this?

Because honestly, if I were to buy a copy of Quake III right now (this example would work the same with Postal once it comes out), I'd have to buy the Windows version because I haven't the "right" hardware 3D-accelerator. A sped-up, but much less visually correct, version of Mesa might make it easier for someone like me to bite the bullet and buy the Linux version, so that when I upgrade/if I upgrade to a 3D accelerated card, I'll have it under the OS I prefer.

(I realize this is pretty selfish, but it's also one of the reasons why you're not going to see many Windows users switching over to Linux any time soon. If I can't install Linux on someone else's 600Mhz Athalon, and be able to show them a kick-ass 3D game with a frame rate higher than 1.5/s...)

Re:Linux and Video

[eddison_carter]

Do you mean "most Windows users" or "most Windows gamers" ? Most gamers will have a decent 3d card, and most of the "major" cards (Nvidia, ATI, Matrox, 3dfx) will work, at least most of the time. The Kyro chips will probally have support
soon too.
As for a "low-quality" software rendering, what do you mean? Less detail, lower resolution? Its not really possible to have lower detail levels then whats in the game, and you can't run a game in less then the lowest resolution the game supports. Most of what you're looking for could only be done in the game's code itself, and to be honest, mean, cruel, blunt (whatever you want to call it), if you don't have a 3d card, you're pretty far off from the target audience for a 3d game. Games need to constantly be innovative and use new technology, and that needs more 3d power. Basicly, a 3d card thats 2 years old (or more) should be replaced if you want to play the latest 3d games. The good news is that the price of cards goes down as well, so you can get a still decent but 6 month old card for a lot less then what it would have cost new. If 3d is annoying you enough, you could (probally) find a decent 3d card for ~ $50-100, or a pretty good card for ~ $100-125.

this is neither healthy nor a sign of life

[ebbv]

as much as i love loki and all they've done, this is not a good sign. i'd love to see loki become as successful as any of the really big game houses. porting old, mediocre (at best) games is not how it's going to happen. even i have a limit to the number of games i'll buy that i have no intention of playing just to support the company.

loki should be porting diablo 2, planescape torment, total annihilation, warcraft 3, etc. big, mainstream games that lots of people want to play. the question is, why aren't they? that's almost certainly due to the original authors not being interested in a linux version.

as much as i hate to admit it, i think linux's chances as a game platform have gone down the drain. the linux hype has gotten considerably less prevelant, and i'm willing to bet there are fewer people running it as their main home OS than in recent memory and that number is only going down.

there have not been any major improvements in this area which would draw people to it recently.. ease of installation hit the point where anyone able to install windows could do it a while ago. however, once the system is up and running, it's not so easy to get new things (like Mesa) set up. this has not improved.

and as i said, it's been a while since a big game was ported to linux.

all in all i don't see any light at the end of this tunnell. it pains me to say so because i've been using linux as my main desktop OS for years and years and always was really optimistic about it.
...dave

Re:this is neither healthy nor a sign of life

[BradleyUffner]

..."big, mainstream games that lots of people want to play. the question is, why aren't they? that's almost certainly due to the original authors not being interested in a linux version. "

Thats' easy, it's a licensing issue. If they decide to port a new game who gets the money for it? The orriginal authors, or Loki? If Loki gets the money for it then the orriginal author ends up not making as much money for the windows version because of sales lost to the linux version. If the orriginal author gets the money then Loki loses out. If the money is split then the orriginal author still end up not making as much money.

Re:this is neither healthy nor a sign of life

[vecna_99]

i couldn't disagree more. i don't want diablo ii ported to linux because i've already played it on my mac, and discovered that it more or less sucks. same with TA. haven't played planescape torment, so i can't comment on that.

it's pure folly for the linux game market to try to compete head-to-head with the PC game market; there's no reason why your average gamer would buy the same big mainstream game for linux when he can buy it for windows.

here are the priorities that loki should adopt:

1) port games that are mod-friendly and have a thriving mod community! we already have Q3 and UT. how about Bungie's Myth or Myth II? what about Half-Life?
loki should have a decent shot at getting companies to license ports of these games, mostly because they're all older games and are no longer a major revenue source for the owners.

2) port GOOD games that fail in the PC market due to insufficient promotion. it must be very frustrating for the owner of a game see the game sell poorly because everybody's buying this year's Tribes 2 instead. these games will be good opportunities for Loki to take advantage of.
(Postal, incidentally, falls into this category. for such a simple game, it's loads of fun. i played the demo for more hours than i've played two or three other games combined.)

as long as the linux gaming experience is just a clone of the PC gaming experience, it'll never flourish. while it's important to have good linux ports of popular network-only games, so linux gamers can attend LAN parties, the world of linux gaming should be a new lease on life for high-quality games that weren't pushed hard enough by their publishers.

-vecna_99

Re:this is neither healthy nor a sign of life

[Jburkholder]

>that's almost certainly due to the original authors not being interested in a linux version.

I think it depends on how the license/port is arranged financially, who assumes the risk and who pays who for what, no?

If the original author (publisher, really) hires Loki at a fixed price to make a port, and then assumes the risk of making a return on that expense by selling x copies of the Linux version, then yes - I agree with your point. (and Loki would have a much more successful business as they would get paid for their work regardless of how successful a Linux version was).

However, that isn't what I read into the way they do business from the article on thier bankruptcy filing a little while ago. I seem to recall that they pay a fixed licensing fee to the owner/publisher of the game, then they port the game and take the risk of selling x copies in order to make a profit on the money they have laid out. (Carmack said a lot of the money Loki owes is to id).

In that case, the high cost of obtaining a license for current titles such as Diablo 2, warcraft 3, etc is going to prevent Loki from taking on a port, not the author's interest. (afterall, the author gets paid up front.)

Re:In case you didn't notice their home page...

[dinivin]

Tribes 2 is done and out... You can order it from any of Loki's usual distributors.

Dinivin

Re:corect, however

[Genom]

It's basically a catch-22 -- game developers want to make games using the latest and greatest hardware support - hardware manufacturers release windows-only drivers, and refuse to release either a linux driver, or the specs by which a third party could release a linux driver.

So the hardware doen't perform to it's full potential under linux. Game developers see that there's no support for the hardware - and don't develop the software.

Places like Loki are doing what they can with the games they can. I'll agree, though, that they could have better choices of games. IMHO the concentration should be on successful, long-lasting games - games that a year after release still have a large following. Games like Diablo II, the Baldur's Gate games, Starcraft, Everquest, etc... Those are the kinds of games that will sell well. Those are the kinds of games a lot of people are still playing - and quite a few of those people dual-boot to linux. I'd gladly pay for a linux version of Diablo II or Baldur's Gate II -- right now they're the only reasons I boot back to Windows.

There *is* a market out there - they're just hitting it with the wrong games.

Re:Signs of life...

[Jethro]

You know, I might actually buy a CD with Linux ports of all the ol' Apogee games. Maybe if they had the graphics updated a bit. I think that'sa wonderful idea.

Re:Postal sucks and Loki is screwed

[Svartalf]

"Part of Loki's problem is the intentional segregation. It was originally impossible to patch Quake 3 Windows to the Linux version, and the Linux and Mac versions were sold separately. Loki's tactics were intended to get them the money they were due and to gauge Linux support. However, it didn't work - Linux copies sold a tiny fraction of the number sold. Loki blamed it on most Linux users also being Windows dual-booters and that they settled on the Windows version and could wait for the patch. "

Originally impossible? Yes and no. The Q3A Windows versions weren't patchable until the Linux version shipped. When it shipped, Id offered the downloads- and it was all she wrote for the Linux version. Had they NOT offered a "patch" (or delayed it even further...), while it was not in keeping with their philosophy with prior games, it would have helped the sales of the game on the Linux front.

Also, as an attempt to gauge Linux gaming support, it was a failure, less due to there not being support and more due to the patch being out and a severe lack of physical avaialability of the game in the storefronts. When it shipped, I tried to purchase the game- in one of the largest software markets in the country and one of the largest Linux userbases in the country and in the world (Dallas, TX). I couldn't- at least not off of a store shelf. Why? Because the retailers that were supposed to stock it on the shelves didn't. The ones that did deliberately choked off sales by not stocking anywhere near enough (6-10 copies on the shelf of a release such as this doesn't cut it and insisting on taking pre-paid orders for more isn't any better) and by the time one of the stores had enough in stock (Fry's) the damage was already done.

Wanted: Linux Half Life + Counterstrike mod

[horza]

Counterstrike is the major reason I will always have a Windows installation. Though if old classics are order of the day then Command&Conquor:Red Alert (and series) would win a lot of converts.

Phillip.

Re:Wanted: Linux Half Life + Counterstrike mod

[steveha]

But WINE makes it possible to run Counter-Strike under Linux! Not just CS but any Half-Life game should work.

If you check the Linux Half-Life page you will find the HOWTO.

Full disclosure: I tried this once and I couldn't get it to work. However, I run a bleeding-edge Debian "unstable" system, and perhaps WINE was unstable that day. I plan to try this again soon.

By the way, Starcraft and other fun games run well under WINE. You can check the WINE app database to see if other people have had success running a particular game.

Good luck and happy gaming!

steveha