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What Can You Do When Defrauded on eBay?
"Most of us followed the proper procedures. You wait 30 days to file a fraud claim on ebay. Then you have the option of getting $175 at most from eBay's insurance. It softens the blow, but for many it's not anywhere close to what they lost. Contacting local authorities hasn't accomplished anything nor has filing with the FBI. Many people who paid via PayPal did get a refund, but others paid via checks.
eBay has been one of the bright spots of the internet. As a NYSE listed company, you'd expect more to be done about helping customers. I hope this question comes as a warning to be more cautious on eBay or not to bid for items on ebay over $400 without escrow protection. I've learned my lesson not to do business with anyone who doesn't use paypal or billpoint. But regardless of what we learned, most of us feel helpless because eBay has not done more to get our money back. Any suggestions?"
If its more than the insurance limit, escrow all transactions.
One particularly notorious action concerned a certain 'haunted' painting. Word quickly spread over the net and attracted 10's of thousands of viewers. You can read the details here.
I used to bulls-eye womp-rats in my pants
Auction fraud is illegal, I believe there is a way you can file with the FTC and have the fraudelant seller fined thousands of dollars, or even possibly jailed. IIRC, something about interstate commerce, or whatknot. I think you may also get a full refund of the amount of money you were defrauded from, or a portion of the money collected by the FTC in fines; I don't remember which.
Look in to it.
JKoebel
I remember back a couple years ago when eBay frauds were big news...some article was suggesting that whenever possible involve the US Mail system. Have them mail you a quote, or mail payment information or such.
The thing about it is, mail fraud is a federal crime which much higher penalties than other forms of fraud (Internet fraud being generally unclassified). If you get ripped off online, you can try to complain to your local police, or the police in the criminal's jurisdiction (if you can find it) but you will probably get nothing.
In you involve the mail system, then the it becomes a federal issue that is tackled by the Office of the Postmaster General and/or the FBI?
Don't quote me on this, but it would be definitely something to ask your local post office about. If a seller is legit, they should have no problem putting some information on paper and mailing it to you, right?
Other than that...the other thing that was suggested is use a credit card. Paypal had a big fight with credit card agencies on whether people can dispute Paypal charges for fraudulent auctions, but I seem to remember that the courts came down on the side of consumers (yes they could dispute) forcing Paypal to get insurance.
Sorry I couldn't find a link, but maybe it helps narrow down your searching?
- JoeShmoe
-- I wonder which will go down in history as the bigger failure: the War on Drugs or the War on Filesharing
I shop ebay quite often, and though I've had a few bad experiences, I've managed to let them go...
1. From one seller, in 4 different auctions I bought 4 15" monitors for $25 a piece. Shortly after I sent him a money order for the combined total of the 4 auctions, this guy seemed to disappear off the face of the earth. His user account was cancelled, his email address bounced mail, and his phone number was disconnected. eBay didn't do anything for me at all.
2. I bought a Cisco 3000 router that claimed to have 16 MB of RAM and 8 MB of Flash (enough to run IOS 12.0). I receieved the product which had barely enough flash & ram to run IOS 9.0 (worthless nowadays). I contacted the seller, he promised to send me the replacement RAM & Flash, he sent me some bunk chips that didn't even fit in the device. After numerous other emails and phone calls with no answers, I finally gave up. ebay didn't do anything for me on this one either.
3. I won an auction for a bootleg TOOL video. I sent the guy the $14 total, and I never received a product. Apparently this guy screwed over 4 other people bidding on the same item from him, we all left negative feedback. This time the amount was not enough for ebay to care.
Each time I filled out one of ebay's fraud reports, and never EVER got a response. Since these losses weren't too important, they were all things I never really needed, just impulse buys that would have ended up sitting in a corner taking space, I don't really fret over it. Plus, if you believe that the grand scheme of things fits together in one huge orchestrated puzzle that meshes together... they'll get what's coming to them.
If you paid by check or money order, though, you're just plain silly. Just because a seller has a fancy auction page or a good feedback rating doesn't mean you should send a check for $400-1000 to a total stranger somewhere else in the country and expect the seller to make good on it. Where's your common sense? People get busted for that all of the time and auction sites account for the majority of fraudulent online activity. So think before you pay next time, and good luck getting your money back.
-CT
On several occasions, shady-sounding individuals have backed out of auction deals with me, after I suggested using Tradenable. To me, that's the surest sign of a huckster and a good indication that escrow works.
I've used paypal numerous times successfully w/o a problem. Whether sending money from my bank account to someone just for the purposes of cash or purchasing on eBay. There was one problem with an eBay transaction. Suffice to say, the guy never fulfilled his obligation and proceeded to not respond for a month, then I notified paypal, they did their investigation and within a week I received a phone call notifying me that they had refunded the $539.00 -- problem solved. I'm not sure whether the guy had his paypal acct. yanked or who knows what action paypal took, but, problem solved on my end. ;)
:wq
I'd try bidding with a username like "Tony Soprano", or "Michael Corleone". I'm guessing that people would think twice about defrauding you.
The pomposity of the professor is inversely proportional to the difficulty and importance of the subject being taught.
The problem with reputation is that it's just so easy to buy! Lets say I go place 20 bids on random crap and my $1 bid wins. Hey, I just got 20 points of reputation for $20! Then I can sell the crap back for maybe $.50 and I have 20 more points worth of reptuation! For literally $10 (and some free time), you can get 40 reputation points from ebay. The whole reputation system is flawed because untrustworthy people are allowed to give out good feedback. Who says that just because someone was honest with a $1 transaction that you can claim they are a "Good trader, very prompt"? What do you know about whether that person is really honest? Yet people give all the feedback to others because they want good feedback in turn.
Listing how much money was spent as part of the feedback doesn't really help either. Just set up a ring of ebay accounts, bid on each other's stuff, and have it sell for higher values. Sure, ebay gets a small cut, but all you're really doing is buy reputation from ebay which you use to screw other people. Suppose I forge $5000 of transactions on ebay and they take 3%. I just bought an enormous amount of reputation (trustworthy for $5000 in transactions) for $167. It shouldn't be that hard for an unethical person to go make $500/scam off of 20+ people.
Lets face it... Reputation doesn't mean anything.
-Ted
It is just this type of naivete that allows so many people to get ripped off on Ebay. PayPal does not protect you. The only way they will refund is if the seller cannot prove delivery (and only in the US). And the seller can send you a rock and PayPal is fine with that!
The Ebay $200 insurance is a joke. You only have a chance to get $175 back and that's only when you spend many hours with their stupid hard-to-use forms . Ebay it self favors Ebay not the protection of buyers or sellers.
Same goes for the way Ebay removes Microsoft auctions. They are in bed with Microsoft so what else would you expect?
Escrow services work most of the time but they are not cheap or guaranteed. Bottom line if you can't afford to lose it don't buy on online auctions.
If eBay set up a decent, reliable, and affordably priced system and made it inherent in the auction process, the masses would follow.
What about all of the bad buyers?
I both buy and sell on eBay. I've stopped listing auctions with the BuyItNow! option because too many of my auctions have been ended when a brand new bidder (i.e. someone who joined eBay within the last couple of days) comes and uses BuyItNow! to end the auction, then disappears completely and is never heard from/never logs into eBay again. Negative feedback doesn't help in this case, because these bidders inevitably have a feedback of zero or at best one and don't care if they lose one point.
Even without BuyItNow, I've had a number of auctions close and then never heard from the high bidder again, forcing me to relist and costing me time and money. In the worst case, one of my auctions closed at just over $300, the buyer e-mailed me a simply said "I changed my mind I don't want it sorry" and when I left negative feedback saying so, I of course got the retaliatory "FRAUD! Took my money and never delivered!" feedback. Legal action got the feedback removed, but that cost me as well.
I think that eBay should require a bank account number as a pre-requisite for buying or bidding. You agree when you join that if you default on a bid or if you are accused by n people of fraud, your assets will be frozen until the situation can be resolved and those involved can get the money owed to them.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
For any significant amount of money on eBay I send the postal money order by U.S. Mail. The penalties for mail fraud are quite severe and the post office does like to investigate reports of same.
See if any of the buys used the U.S. Mail and/or a postal money order. If so, have that person or persons file a complaint with the postmaster of their zip code, and have him reference the other cases that you have dug up.
sPh
The scope we're talking about here is such that you can't expect local and federal authorities to burn lots of man-hours bringing you justice. You've done the right thing by reporting the incident, and perhaps something will come of it.
As others have said, the number one best idea for buying big-ticket items over eBay is to use credit, because of those great limited liability clauses. If someone doesn't take credit (or PayPal), you've got to ask yourself how much you'll be hurting if your money wings off through the mail and the item never comes.
Good luck.
Spare me your rationalizations. All I know is, stem-cell research kills a quasi-living four-day-old blob.
Less than 66% of internet users have not been a victim of online fraud... Per victim, the price of fraud hovers around $600, which is more than most research estimates of average online retail spending.
What this means is that 34% of all internet users have been screwed over (if you believe their report). Show me another industry that has that high a fraud rate - there isn't, why? 'cause the Fed's would come down hard.
This just isn't acceptable.
That is some serious fraud. I would imagine that EBay would have a vested interest in prosecuting this guy to the fullest extent because he lessens the value of their product. Defrauding 55 people is also a federal crime because it crosses state lines. I'm sure the FBI should be notified as well.
I reported him to the following agencies:
- United States Postal Service
- Internet Fraud Center
- FBI
- Discover Card
- Ebay
- Billpoint
- PayPal
This guy is currently wishing he never heard of me, with several charges levelled against him, including:
- Mail fraud
- Credit card fraud
- Grand larceny
- Plus the fact this was all interstate, making it worse.
I also tracked his ass down using every known resource on the Internet, and ended up with his home address, home phone, AERIAL PHOTOS OF HIS HOUSE and more...
Needless to say, my money has been safely returned and he's in a world of shit. Sorry, asshole.
I'll sell you and each of your friends a bridge that they can call their own for the meer sum of $25 each.
After I've defrauded you on this, you won't feel the need to pursue it personally, because after all it's only $25. This is great, because I can now go and defraud the next guy, and eventually become a millionaire.
The point is, "these losses weren't too important" just don't cut it. You have some sort of responsibility to ensure that these people don't f**k over other people too. If everyone just rolls over because it's too much hassle, they'll never stop because it's profitable.
Please, for OUR sake, do NOT forget about these types of things, and pursue them as hard as possible, no matter how trivial $25 or whatever seems to you.
Thanks,
MadCow.
I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
I'm beginning to wonder if there are any good deals left on ebay...
Robotiq.com is heavily tested on animals
There are good reasons for that.
First, ebay's much hearalded feedback system is constructed to discourage negative feedback. The text on the feedback page pleads with you not to leave negative feedback. If you decide to leave negative feedback anyway you must go through an extra confirmation page that is not required for positive feedback.
Second, it opens you to retaliation from the other party in the form of negative feedback. The only negative feedback I ever received was retaliation from the only seller I ever left negative feedback for. Investigating his feedback history I discovered that he only ever left negative feedback, and most of that was retaliation for negative feedback he received.
I just got done with a fraud battle on Ebay and this page was of immense help, and eventually got me my full money back from the bastard who tried to swindle me:
t ml
http://www.mindspring.com/~bookdealers/ripoff.h
Pay particularly close attention to the sections on reporting the fraud to the IFCC section of the FBI, and the Postal Inspector fraud complaint form.
In the postal inspector's case, when you file a fraud report, they notify the person that they're being investigated. This led to me promptly getting a $600 money order from the criminal in question. They actually had the money order to me in a day, and it cost them $25 to mail it. File reports galore, and try to get as much information about the person that you can.
I had a bad experience on a $150 item (cell phone).
The seller answered email immediately until I verified that I sent payment (he insisted on a money order). After that, he wouldn't answer email and his Ebay account was cancelled.
I didn't take it laying down. I started by running a reverse lookup on his mailing address to get his phone number. Sure enough, that was disconnected. His email didn't bounce so I emailed him and informed him that I was contacting the local police department. I contacted the local police department and it turned out they'd had two complaints against the guy.
All of a sudden he appeared back and said that the "shipment must have been delayed". 5 days later the phone arrived postmarked the day after I notified the Police.
Auction fraud is fraud. Report it and hound them into the ground.
Seriously, this isn't a product plug and I know Capital One isn't the best credit card company to ever exist, but I have been defrauded a few times on eBay, and each time I have used my Capital One credit card through PayPal. Capital One has an online protection program and all you have to do is call them up and explain the situation. They sometimes ask you to fax or e-mail documents and then they stop the charge by doing a charge-back.
The process is completly transparent, and Capital One fraud investigators then automatically take over if, neccessary. They know you don't HAVE to pay the bill, and most people won't if they have been the victim of a fraud.
The key is to do it quick, e.g. if you suspect you are dealing with a fraud, (e.g. "I just shipped it."), stop the charge. The worse that could happen is there will be a delay. Another option would be to stop the posting of the charge, but keep the charge. In this way, the seller is still guaranteed the funds because they are set aside for them, but they don't actually have them in their hands.
This has worked good, and is why you should NEVER transfer money from your checking or bank account, because it's much EASIER to get credit back than your *real* money. PayPal says a bank transfer is the prefered method, and with good reason because they don't end up eating the cost when one their accounts commits fraud. You do.
"I'll just chip in a bit for RedHat: I actually have that installed on my university machine." - Linus, '95
Paypal will only protect you if you pay with a credit card
Not true! Paypal will cover any transaction, provided you follow some simple and quite obvious steps:
- Conduct transactions with verified users
- Ship/send money only to the listed address
- Use some common sense and not deal with someone who... say..., wants that new computer bought at $300 shipped overnight to a MailBoxes Etc., doesn't care shipping is going to cost $250, and says he's paying with a credit card (which just happens to be in the name of someone else).
Really, how hard is it to spot things like this? Same thing applies to sellers. Ship to confirmed address and have paperwork/tracking numbers to back up your end of the transaction. I deal on Ebay all the time, people have tried to screw me over, but I take some common sense. In every case, I've either got my money back, or a replacement from the seller.
Of course, on the other hand, the support systems of both Ebay and Paypal are terrible. It's not uncommon for it to take 4 or 5 days to get an illegal auction cancelled (bulk email addresses) on Ebay, or a month to report a spammer using Paypal as a payment vehicle.
It becomes possible mail fraud if they don't deliver within the time alloted and they don't notify of delays or offer a full refund.
o me .htm
For details and to file a complaint:
http://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/fraud/welc
"I may be Love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it."
As part of the ongoing Internet law enforcement initiative, the FTC has trained more than 700 law enforcement and consumer protection officials from 20 different countries, including 17 federal agencies, 25 state governments and 14 Canadian consumer protection offices in online investigation and law enforcement techniques in locations ranging from Anchorage, Alaska to Paris, France.
Sounds like these are the boys (and girls) in blue to talk to. This is where to find them to file a complaint.
I have used PayPal many times, but don't be fooled into thinking there is any protection! I bought an item for $89. (An ATI Radeon Video card) This was ~$20 cheaper than I get get it locally, so paying $9 for shipping didn't seem bad. The problem, they shipped me a card that did not match their description at all. (Not the ATI Radeon, didn't look like the photo, didn't have the features mentioned in the auction, etc.)
After a month of sending emails and phone calls, of which none were returned, I filed tried to use SquareTrade, this at least got a response but still no fix. I then filed a complaint with PayPal. PayPal looked into it, and a few weeks later sent me a nice email, explaining that yes I had been defrauded, they found 100% in my favor, the refund. $0!! My guess, the seller had disappeared off of PayPal, so no money could be recovered. This was 6 months ago, and I have given up hope in getting anything back. (I was contacted by the District Attorney for Washington state, apparently the seller had started taking money for products and not sending them soon after my problem)
Between the TWO who paid by USPS we crossed the felony fraud line for them. It took them about 2 months to find him (he skipped his address and skipped on his roommates too). Though all I got back was ebay insurance (so far), USPS PIS did find him and jail him. I've not heard if they'll go for recovering all of our money, but eBay was very friendly with the USPS setting up the case.
Moral: NEVER PAY BY ANY MEANS BUT USPS. People who only accept PayPal are likely to be trouble because they know that there can't be a USPS inspector knocking on their door if they exclude that mechanisim for payment.
-- Multics
I have been thoroughly screwed on a PayPal transaction, and I'll likely never use the service again over it because of the way PayPal "handled" it.
I purchased (or should I say, paid for) a GeForce 3 for roughly $400 from a certain merchant (that now appears to be defunct, imagine that). They were a verified user on PayPal, everything seemed legit. Two weeks pass and I get nothing, not even a notice of shipping delay. After a whole slew of emails back and forth, finally ending with me buying the card somewhere else and telling them to cancel the order, the "merchant" just stopped responding altogether.
So I took the matter to PayPal. Their response: "We have investigated your claim and found the seller to be at fault. However, we are unable to recover any funds because the seller's account balance is zero. Thank you, have a nice day."
What in the blue fsck is that? The fact that I played by every one of their rules, and they even admit I was defrauded by a so-called "verified" seller, and yet still refuse to extend any consumer protection to me, ticks me off even more. The SELLER should be the one biting the bullet, not me. I did my part of the bargain. He didn't.
So short moral of the story: don't use PayPal to pay for anything you think might have even the most remote chance of going awry. In the end it's no different than sending cash.
I am still trying to get that $400 back -- apparently the next step is going straight to my bank and disputing the charge, although I hear PayPal loves when people do that. Well, they can have all the love I'm willing to give on the matter, for being oh so helpful with an obvious fraud case.
About a year and three months ago I purchased a Porsche 944 off of ebay. And although I was promised a warrenty, the company who handeled the guys warrentys would not provide one for my car. I had transmission problems, muffler problems, air conditioner problems, and brake problems. I had finally given up when a representative from the state of New Jersey called me and informed me they were orgonizing a Class Action Lawsuit against the individual who sold me my car.
This seems the way to go, collect information about the one individual, and bring it to the state. I happen to be fortunate because he forged my signiture several times when providing documents to the state, so I have a very strong case, so perhaps people might not have as good luck as I do.
The downside is I provided all of this information to the state, and it has still been 10 months, and I have not got word on how the case is progressing.
If it were done as a trust network it would be much more meaningful.
Weight the trust passed on to people you certify (via feedback) using both the value of the item and the trust of the certifier.
A more useful metric of how trust worthy someone is would then be based on a combination of:
Do this and keep seperate ratings for buying and selling and enjoy the results!
IFCC FBI Complaint Center
One of their prime purposes is to handle online fraud.
People are thinking this needs to be E-bay's problem to solve. It just ain't so. That's typical of today's society... 'someone solve my problems for me'.
Look how many valid transactions are on ebay. How many dollars worth of commerce. What percentage of those are fraudulent? Anyone? I'm willing to bet it's extremely small.
I just fail to see how anyone can expect ebay to take care of it. It's very, very clear that ebay is merely factilitating the auction, for a fee from the seller. Everything else, including payment and product delivery, is between buyer and seller directly, unless they chose otherwise. There are plenty of escrow services available for a fee already. Ebay does not need ot make it 'mandatory'.
Back a Long Time Ago (1997? 98?) someone on eBay was selling non-existant Japanese swords, offering to repair people's swords, taking them and then selling them or simply disappearing, etc. A bunch of us from the sword mailing list and eBay bidders got together and worked to track him down.
I identified an auction under a new name that was obvious fraud (the image was a link to someone's random web page). He also sent me email claiming to have not know anything about blades using his new email address - but signed it with his real first name, and used technical terms no layperson would know.
We arranged for the deputy(!) he ripped off to be the winner on the bid and got a snail-mail address from him for the postal order. (We'd tracked him down, but he'd moved to another state, and we needed his new address.) When he tried to pick up his check at the PO box, he was arrested. About a dozen blades were recovered, and he was convicted.
Banding together made us FAR more able to get action; this was probably one of the earliest arrests of an eBay seller. Of course, things have changed since then I imagine. Back then I bought a $2500 sword via eBay by personal check (and he mailed it before he received payment - the catch is that he knew who I was from the sword community).
To a certain degree some people on eBay are like people driving around in a van saying "psst: want to get a great deal on some speakers" or "hey, genuine rolex, only $100". Why shuld you trust them? Photos are hardly evidence the item ever existed.
It takes some time, but you can use legal process to make ISPs, Mail Boxes Etc, credit card companies, and the USPS disclose identity info.
The FBI has a unit that handles nothing but online auction fraud. They are notorious for handling auction fraud quickly and seriously, but due to the sheer volume of cases they probably have a hard time getting to everyone. Poke around at the FBI until someone puts you in contact with these people.
The original poster has come up with about the best way I can think of to get back at some of the slime who defraud others through eBay - contact other victims and organize.
Example? My ex-brother-in-law, a complete slime, sold coins through eBay. The coins were either overgraded by him or not delivered at all. Eventually, through the tireless efforts of his ex-wife, my sister, a wonderful woman who you just don't want to piss off and who was determined to pay him back for his theft of several hundred thousand dollars worth of her property as well as his bigamy, the authorities in Texas began to take notice. She organized the victims, put them in touch with the detective handling the complaints, and prodded them to support the lengthy prosecution process.
He was eventually charged with 42 counts of felony fraud. Last week, he made a deal with the prosecutors. He made full monetary restitution to all 42 victims, got his charges reduced to class A misdemeanors for fraud, plead guilty to those misdemeanors, and was sentenced to 6 months probation. As a result, he's lost his precious license to carry a concealed handgun and his life will be tied to the whims of his probation officer for quite a while. For a guy like him who can't stand any structure in his life, that puts him just one slip-up away from a parole vioation and jail time. I'm looking forward to it. Timeline from first victim to final disposition: about three years.
My advice: The law can work. You just have to be patient and motivated.
I won an auction from Yahoo auctions a while back from a guy who had something like a 300 feedback rating. "Great!" I thought, "No chance of getting ripped off here!" I place my bid, win the auction, and then I notice, the guy had, I don't remember exactly, but somewhere between 80-100 negative feedbacks with about 400 or so positive feedbacks. he had ripped off 20-25% of his customers, but by sheer volume managed to obtain an incredibly high rating.
My auction was for a video card, and it was like, $35+$10 shipping. And my case wasn't all that bad, it was supposed to be "new in box" but it obviously wasn't. The box was cut up, will all UPC info, and even some of the specs cut off. The card was in an open static bag, and the "brand new" manual bad was taped back together. I complained, and the guy claimed he just opened it to make sure it worked ok, but it was obviously BS. But, the card did work, and it _was_ actually the right card and all, so I didn't bother filing any official complaints or anything.
Other people's auctions were things like "untested, as-is hard drives". Of course the guy had tested them, because among a lot of 10 or 20, not a single one would be good. The guy's responses to his negative feedback were things like "I said it's as-is, what do you expect?".
Here's another flawed aspect of auction feedback ratings though. I have a 118 positive feedback rating on ebay, with no neutrals or negatives. I have a 1 positive feedback rating on yahoo, 2 positive, 1 negative. What's my negative from? This guy. I, of course, left negative feedback, and the bad seller, in retailation, left negative feedback for me. I don't think I'd ever leave negative feedback for anyone on ebay, because I KNOW they'd leave negative feedback for me as retribution, and it would ruin my perfect reputation. That's a really crappy situation, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who's dealt with it.