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The Death of DOS and BIOS Updates?
Mike Hicks asks: "The release of Windows XP was heralded by Microsoft as the Death of DOS. No longer is everything riding on command.com and friends. However, most BIOS update utilities -- whether for motherboards or DVD drives -- are still written to work under DOS. Certainly, a lot of DOS boot diskettes are squirreled away all over the place, but they are going to disappear over time. What will we be using in the next few years to update firmware? Do adequate non-DOS solutions exist now?" I would hope that maybe BIOS updates would then be distributed as disk images that would boot you right into the update utility, however more than likely there will be a Windows XP utility to do this. Here's hoping, however, that an OS-neutral solution presents itself in the future.
Don't we just need a windows XP version of rawwrite?
I need a TiVo for my car. Pause live traffic now.
Do not woory, it's just another MS-trick to make you believe that the command-line is dead.
[Pruneau
This is all very grand, except that floppy drives aren't guaranteed to exist in new systems. If memory serves, the 2002 computer spec put together by Intel and Microsoft actually recommends against their being there.
Ideally, there should be enough space for two copies of the BIOS to coexist, with the unused bank writable by a Windows/Linux device driver. If not, perhaps we'll start to see bootable miniature Linux ISOs capable of flashing the board. It would be practical, cost nothing for the vendors, and after all -- every computer deserves the opportunity to run Linux for a little while at least.
Of course, there is still FreeDOS. If I were distributing a BIOS upgrade, I would distribute a bootable disk image using FreeDOS. Then there are no licensing issues to work out with Microsoft, and you don't have to worry about what OS people are running.
Oh, and don't forget about OpenDOS, the now-free version of Dr-DOS.
I don't think that it's likely that the updater will ever run under windows. If that happened you couldn't flash your BIOS to solve problems that prevented Windows from booting fully. If anything changes with current BIOSs it would likly be a move to standalone updaters on a bootable disk. Also, Intel has plans to replace the stnadard PC bios with EFI which is already used on IA-64 and is available for IA-32 vendors. The EFI 'bios' has a shell, and can self update. Now that there is no DOS, perhaps the dependance on BIOS calls will go away, and systems can start using this far superior system.
Incidentally, Windows-based flashing programs for DVD and CD-RW firmware have been here for quite some time. I know that Pioneer, Mitsumi, Lite-On, and Ricoh use them, and I'm sure plenty of others do too.
Other ways to handle Updates..
1. FreeDos, comes to mind, the problem with an MS-DOS image disk that it actually requires a license from M$ to distribute that disk...FreeDos could solve that.
2. Don't use Disks, use Bootable CD's that eliminates the Floppy might go away issue.
3. Why not work around the issue completely, LINUX boot disk/CD with the BIOS Imagine on it.
4. I have an old SuperMicro board, you boot the machine with disk in the drive, it doesn't need system files or anything just the ROM image for the bios, hold I think its the CTRL keey during boot, it reads the disk and does its thing.
Power Corrupts,Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely, leaving one person(group)in charge is absolutely corrupt.
Welcome to NT! Enjoy your stay!!!
;-)
You only just now noticed a problem with NT-based operating systems (like XP) and the PC: DOS utilities. To NT admins, this is old news. This problem is at least 5 years old, as long as you had to boot NT from an NTFS partition in order to gain most of its benefits (like security, automatic compress, maybe SFM).
Most people here are going to say "use floppy disks" which is cheap, but kind of reckless. You'd better make 2 or 3 copies stored in different places away from CRTs, TVs, fridges, and stereo speakers. If your machine won't boot, you can't go download a fix if your "rescue floppy" is bent up, scrambled, or moonlighting as a lint motel. As the BSD gurus have said: relying a $1 disk to fix your PC is fine if you have only $1 worth of data or your time is only worth $1. Or if you only have $1.
You have lots of options:
- DOS Bootable removable media: Zip, LS-120, and even CD-R. Keep them out of the light and don't feed them after midnight.
- DOS boot floppy with NET.EXE if you have a LAN.
- A bootable FAT hard disk partition where XP can't mess with it and a 3rd party boot loader.
- Some vendors (like Dell) include a "reference partition" for their diagnostic utilities that the BIOS will boot with an F8 before NT gets a crack at even asking you. You may be able to grow the partition's size and stash all your driver installers, MBR tools, BIOS utilies, etc in there.
- Sysinternals (http://www.sysinternals.com/) has a DOS tool to read/write from NTFS partitions (not free).
- The "official" MS way... is um, well, just forget it. ERD in the dictionary should say "noun. (Jargon) A false hope. Potential security risk. Something seemingly crucial, yet useless misplaced, maybe on the bus. See 'Placebo'."
That's a completely incomplete list. Read some NT sites and you'll find some more ways other people have worked around this moronic position NTFS boot disks puts you in. Or read the Cryptonomicon and pay attention to the repeated theme "Use a little ingenuity."
By comparison, Linux or *BSD are trivial to fix if they won't boot or you want to keep a DOS partition of BIOS tools and drivers to boot into without hassle. NT though has issues and an agenda. MS doesn't want you using DOS, and NT almost can't be fixed without 3rd party tools if you can't boot all the way into NT. Its like the filesystem has a built-in self-destruct mechanism that's too easy to accidently set off (like running CHKDSK, defragging, or not facing your desk towards Redmond, WA). Don't get me wrong -- I actually (ahem) like NT. A little accelerated video and lot of RAM and its a great desktop OS. But the boot sequence/fixability and support for DOS utilities is pretty raw. But hey, quirky OSes create jobs, and after all this balony about being profitable, isn't that what really matters? Hrm. That sounds like an "Ask Slashdot" waiting to happen.
Does all this apply wholesale to XP? If you don't know, NT4 is where I'd start and see what will carry over. Or just don't buy it -- it's amazing what kinds of problems a little well-placed frugality can solve. I know guys who'd pay $200 to mess up their PC so their spouse will give up trying to use it. I guess that's those "honeypots" they keep talking about...
Democracy. Whiskey. Sexy. Pick any two.
Actually, when you format a disk using WindowsXP's explorer, it gives you the option to make a DOS Boot Disk. I've tried this a couple of days ago to update my SCSI firmware, and it works great.
I have needed bootdisks in the past for various reasons and not had the facilities to make the right disk for the job. I have often used http://bootdisk.com to get the bootdisks I need for various situations. Although there are actual images available at the site, many are entrapped in .exe files... Nonetheless, it's been a pretty helpful resource for me.
.sig wanted: Must be concise, funny, and display my cleverness.
the kewlest bios update i ever saw was just a few weeks ago when i was looking to see if there were any bios updates available on a compaq proliant i inherited. on the compaq support site, i found a linux rpm bios update. i'd never heard of such a thing before and it was sooooooo easy. no need to boot off a floppy, or even start up in single user mode. just download, rpm -ivh and reboot.
why don't more folks do this i wonder? i used to hate compaq desktops almost as much as those packard bells and gateways. now i'm feeling the urge to purchase a couple proliants for work.
All the BIOS should do is let the user choose which volitile device to boot (LAN, Harddrives, CDs).
The release of Windows XP was heralded by Microsoft as the Death of DOS.
Wasn't that one of the major marketing points of Windows 95's release, too?
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Without Floppy drives do? I haven't had one in a while, and all the utilities that supposedly let you create bootable CD's always say "Make a boot floppy and put it in the drive" Anyone have any tips for a guy who just doesn't have a working floppy drive. I currently Dual-Boot 98se/XP just to have a place to flash my bios and junk. :)
I expected at least a reboot, but Asus LiveUpdate flashed our BIOS in Windows without a hitch. Now they just need a Linux flash utility..
Tired of free ipod spam sigs? Opt ou
We all know that, in the future, floppy disks will be gone, unless you're willing to shell out for a controller card. And over the next few gens of M$ software, DOS will slowly disappear.
I say next few gens, because there are still other versions of windows other than XP that are still usable with recent hardware..
The solution is to download a dos bootdisk in an image format, and burn it to a cd. That's what I've done with my win2k system, and it works wonders.. You do have to make sure to keep a fat32 partition on your hdd, so you can store updates there. DOS can't read NTFS without a special program. Then again, the dos boot-image that I use does have the NTFS proggie on it, but I haven't used it yet.
http://jason-n3xt.org/dos/downloads/bd.htm
There's one on there called techw0rm. Nice boot image. I tend to use it alot..
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I don't even run a floppy on my computer. I'd like to see bios updates distributed as ISO images that can be burned to a CD. (Roxio could make a fortune on this - self burning images?) Alternately, you could make the system fetch an update via the internet - just put a small os image with a basic GUI in the rom. Include a flash program, networking services (including dialup) and you'll have what you need for an intuitive bios setup application, and an easy reliable bios flash.
Some tyan motherboards I know of do not require an operating system to flash with.
All is needed is to insert a floppy with a rom image stored in it. Choose whatever particular method you decide.
On boot, if you are holding a specific key, it scan's the floppy drive for an image. If the image is intact, it will update the bios from the image.
I seem to recall some sparc and digital hardware doing this as well. Compaq has a great deal of floppies that have an entire environment to do such fun things. The compaq stuff rides on top of dos.
"You should always go to other people's funerals; otherwise, they won't come to yours." -- Yogi Berra
... get one here.
Also lots of utilities, drivers, etc.
-Miki
The Hacker's Guide To The Kernel: Don't panic()!
The vaunted Slashdot group gets stumped by the eventual loss of floppys.
http://uranus.it.swin.edu.au/~jn/linux/raww rite.ht m
.sig: Open Source, Open Mind
I think one of the reasons MS has continually pursued this Death of DOS theme is a psychological ploy aimed at discouraging younger users from considering themselves developers. Such a campaign doesn't have to be in any way related to the facts to be effective in its goals. /. readers will probably agree that a little DOS action is a blast, but this is an audiance composed disporportionately of developers and sysadmins and university CS students. After all, once you've made a few batch files, other executables don't seem so far out of reach. DOS is a gateway drug to programming.
/. readers who will find this message merely annoying and irrelevant to what they percieve as the facts.
Most
By assuring users that this DOS stuff is a dinosaur that is about to die, you can discourage those who might be thinking of actually scripting up some of their personal tasks. Notice that the macro recorder disappeared back with 95, so without system macros or batch files, you're left with what you're told is good for you even if it paralyzes your wrists and leaves you with the impression that PCs are for idiots only.
MS got where they are by a two-faced piracy policy and a deal with the devil for would-be developers. Now, the development community is getting harder and harder to control. I think one reaction to that is to reduce the supply of these individuals. One way to do this is to continually propogandize about the end of DOS. It has nothing to do with Windows Scripting Host filling in where DOS left off, it's about young future developers --here "young" would extend to elementary and Junior high school students as well as novice programmers of all ages-- getting the message that scripting is for old dinosaurs and XP is going to save you from that terrible stuff.
So, I think the arguments about whether or not there is DOS functionality in XP might be missing the point that a publicity campaign can work at many levels and may not be directed at