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French Government Online-Why Isn't the U.S.?
DullTrev asks: "Looks like the French are pushing forward once again with their online government plans. The BBC News site has this article about the new portal about to be launched. The article says the portal 'will give every citizen a personal internet portal allowing them to pay taxes online, register a child for a state school, or be reminded that their regulatory car inspection is due in a month's time'. The UK government has had this portal up for a while, and are steadily expanding their services. This is all within the EU government systems that are (not surprisingly) encouraging online government all over the place. How does this kind of thing compare to the US?"
The US has the problem that there are many State and Federal agencies that would have to communicate and cooperate. They are about as likely to do this as Bill Gates is to write an SMP patch for the Linux kernel. European countries have a history of central management and of delination and communication between agencies. It is this infrastructure that enables these sorts of projects to be built.
The US is liable to get disparate information portals that provide for specific needs in a variety of ways. The odds however of someone who lives in CA and has a business in NY having a single portal for all of his needs is practically zero. One web company had this idea and failed miserably. The nature of the US goverment makes it hard to imagine this happening. Germany however with its Federal system and different history and social infrastructure is liable to do this.
The main reason for the US not getting there is the social infrastructure that actively encorages States to go their own way and buck the Washington line. This tends not to exist within the European countries as even beauracrats at the local level are considered under the same banner as those at the national level.
An EU wide portal is also a possibility as there is a history of inter-country cooperation on large scale projects (Concorde anyone) and there is that ethos of distributed and deliniated goverment in a manner that does not exist in the US.
Its more a social thing than a technology thing.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
>And France has nothing like states' rights that the US has to cope with that makes us a patchwork of sometimes conflicting laws.
Actually, we have. Corsica and Alsace (trn ?), (and some other regions i think) more or less have special laws/regulations on many aspects covered by that portal. So i really wonder how it will work. Especially, each French city/county/region has its own taxes (we are professionals at taxing), so i wonder how it will work in that big portal....
I was just looking at a job ad in the paper - probably a bit ambitious for me, but why not give it a go? I thought. "Head of Web Services" for the UK Home Office; that'd look great on the CV, looks like a fun job too, and well paid. "For details, write to:..." it says. Ah, but look - there's an URL for the outsourced recruitment firm they've retained! I'll use that.
Check it out on their website: you couldn't make this up...
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
It's a ptetty big initiative, but they are making a lot of progress. It's looking like every taxpayer is going to have a government issue PKI key.
When someone yells "Stop" or goes limp, or taps out, the fight is over.
Dude! Have you ever tried to have a dinner party with six guests? Fairly easy, right? Try to put on the same dinner party with 28 guests. All you need to do is make more, right? It ain't quite that easy.
The United States is a big place.
InitZero
Not sure how valid a comparison it is with those saying "Not in the US as we've so many federal differences" but just last week I paid my local (n.b. similar to state, up to a point) taxes (Taxe d'habitation) here in France via the central gov portal site.
Really does seem to work OK. One can only hope that one benefit will be to improve efficiency and result in lower taxes. However I somehow doubt it!!
I don't think whoever submitted this story meant to say that the US gov't has a lousy or non-existant presence on the web. He just asked for a comparison between European and US pages.
Personally, I think the US Federal and most state webpages are pretty good tools for locating information. It is certainly a hell of alot easier than navigating a maze of phone numbers or finding someone that you know who already knows the information that you need.
The only thing that many government websites are missing are electronic forms. That lack has more to do with budgetary constraints than anything else though.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
He doesn't know that clicking on an e-mail attachment (that seems to come from secretary@dutchgovernment.nl) could let a trojan loose on his system, one that becomes active AFTER authentication with smartcard/iris scan, one that changes keystrokes but doesn't show that to the user.
Doing things like this is acceptable for companies, because they are profit based and take risks all the time. For governments, it is totally unacceptable that this is possible, but unfortunately they have spent literally millions of euro's on pilots and can't reverse the process. Somebody has to make clear to them that the internet + computers == not a secure infrastructure, but well ... is there anybody who will listen?
My apologies for my bad english, I'm Dutch.
--
If code was hard to write, it should be hard to read
Some of these services are already available online depending on what state you live in. Things like registering your kid for school, registering your car, and paying tax (not Federal of course) are all done on a state level here, which is the way it should be. One of the principles our country is founded on is the belief that many things are best done on the state and local levels. Putting these services online at a federal government level just wouldn't make much sense, and it would clearly take power away from state governments, to do things in a way that is best for their specific residents.
Here in Massachusetts, we can already do most of the stuff you mentioned online. You can renew your driver's license, car registration, etc. online at the RMV's web site. You can also pay your state taxes online or by phone. People in the US can electronically file with the IRS, too.
We are a country based on decentralized government. Centralizing web services that should be run at a state level just doesn't make sense.
England is one of the countries in the UK. The other 3 are Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Each one of the has unique characteristics and laws. Only Ignorant Americans think that that UK is England.
Simple answer: Because we're an order of magnitude bigger. More population. More beaurocracy
That's simply not true. The US has a smaller population than the EU (285M and 376M) and a proportionally smaller public sector (the EU tax burden is 41.5%, US 29%).
The real root of the matter is that the EU has far too many politicians, bureaucrats and civil servants, too much money, and too little idea or inclination to do anything other than expand their role.
States' Rights was Jeffersonian, Alexander Hamilton and John Marshall were for strong federal government.
Hamilton and Marshall appear to have won out in practice. Federalism's benefit was that no state could unfairly create commerce problems with another state, but the downside is that the Federal government has far overreached it's bounds, largely thanks to Marshall.
quoting from the Smithsonian magazine:
Marshall and Jefferson were adversaries. Jefferson believed in states' rights -- that the colonies who ratified the constitution did so as sovereign states. He wanted the weakest federal government possible. Marshall knew that a federal government without the power to tax, to support a military and to regulate finance was a recipe for anarchy. For 34 years, in decision after decision, McCulloch v. Maryland, Gibbons v. Ogden, he built up the legal power of the Supreme Court and, with it, the power of the federal government. Jefferson and succeeding democratic Presidents were against everything Marshall did, but found themselves helpless before his legal expertise in reading the Constitution.
endquote.
States' Rights was pretty much dissolved by the Civil War, and only lately have there been good arguments for it, such as Oregon and their fight for the right to administer euthanasia.
That would Grand Frère. And it is not seen as something good.
In France, there is less distrust in (and more reliance upon) the government. Yes. But there is less reliance upon (and more distrust in) private corporations.
That sounds communist for the average troll, but you should keep in mind some basic things.
In the French vision, the government is made by the people, for the people, and takes its decision in the better interest of the people.
When a government fails, it is disposed, violently if needs be (everyone have heard, at least, of the French Revolution ?). We're actually in our 5th republic, and the topic of a 6th one comes regularly.
But, in the French vision of how things are, a private corporation is made by people who don't give a fuck about other people, wildlife, public health, employment rate, or anything; except the money they earn.
Because earning money is the definition and meaning of life of a private corporation, not ethics, civil rights, or any other things like that.
People in the US is suspicious of big government databases. People in France is suspicious about big corporate databases. And, actually, I havn't heard of things like the CNIL (Commission Nationale Informatique et Liberté) who watch and prevents privacy abuses from government and pricate organizations alike.
Reading Slashdot, I often get the feeling that people from the US sees governments as a necessary evil, trying to oppress and spy upon the citizens, whereas pricate corporations are utopian-minded selfless organizations promoting freedom, civil rights, respect for life, human rights, and environment.
Although it would be naive to say I believe in the reverse, I sure trust less corporations than government. At least, the government is legitimized in its position by the constitution, and has clear duties it needs to respect.
sigmentation fault
You mean SIPRNET, NIPRNET, and INTELNET ?
They've had these for a while.
Simple answer: Because we're an order of magnitude bigger.
About 4.5 times bigger, more precisely (60 million inhbts).
BTW, isn't this a reason why you kept the federal model instead of becoming a big nation-state ?
What I mean is this: this e-government stuff should really happen at the state level. France is famous for being an embodiment of the good old nation-state, but the federal nature of the United States of America seems to lend itself pretty well to e-government, state by state.
Think about it: of all the bureaucratic stuff you must deal with as an American, how much has to do with local institutions (state, county or city), and how much is related to the federal government ?
Actually this would make it much more manageable in the US than in France. The population of South Dakota is two full orders of magnitude lower than that of France, isn't it ? (It is; I checked)
Thomas Miconi,
French.
PS: BTW, this has nothing to do with a gigantic web-database. The French are extremely sensitive when it comes to data privacy. The idea is more about replacing the counter than the data storage itself.
I've read all you Slashdotters responses to this. A lot of you seem to think that the US government is less online because of the size of the country. Sounds like an excuse to me.
I have an idea. It's just a little thought. Please don't mod me down as a troll. Here goes... Perhaps, just maybe, the UK and French governments are more on-line than the US government because, (deep breath), they are better organised than the US government. There, I've said it. I'm probably going to burn in hell now.
I think Americans often confuse their country's size with superiority. Yes, America is very big, but let's imagine for a moment that it was much smaller, say a fifth of the size, with a population of say, 50 million. Do you think it would be that 'superior' globally if that were the case? Would it have the most Nobel prize winners? (that would be the UK I think) Would it have the highest earning potential per capita? (That would be Switzerland) Would it have the freest citizens? (Probably Denmark). Would it have the highest standard of living? (Norway, according to the UN). Sorry, but I think the answers to these questions are no, no, no and no. America is a very big country, yep. But don't confuse that with an innate superiority.
- They were **THE** pionneers in instituting an online society.
- They're not anglo-saxons.
- De Gaulle did not like using a phone.
- They're catholics
- French culture values intellectual achievement
- The education system does not make specialists, but generalists.
- France values education and culture.
French is not only about perfumes and good food, it's also about technology, science, research and, most importantly, FREE EDUCATION.More than 20 years ago, they decided to implement the fabled Minitel in order to eliminate paper telephone directories.
So the french don't have that innate distrust of the State. Thus, they not only do not continually question what the State does, but they don't view working for the State as something demeaning, so the best minds are naturally attracted to work for the State so everyone benefits.
He himself took maybe three phone calls a year, and made perhaps only one (on a good year) phone call on the same year (he didn't have a phone on his desk). Therefore, telephone infrastructure lagged sorely behind most countries (and was the butt of cruel jokes, like Fernand Raynaud's fabled: "Hello New-York, gimme the 22 at Asnières", which is said to have humiliated french telephone network engineers more than anything else. So, upon De Gaulle's resignation, the authorities embarked into a record-breaking research program to enhance the french phone network.
The retarded phone network was a blessing in disguise, because in most cases, switches simply bypassed mechanical switching and they went from manual operators straight to digital packet-switching.
This gave France a head-start in digital communications, which enabled them to quickly implement the Minitel network.
The french didn't have much choice but either to listen to the priests or to dump them, which is what they've been doing en masse for the last 200 years or so. (By contrast, a protestant can either find a sect that tells him what he likes, or simply make-up one of his own)
Republican ideals naturally spurns religion as something which enslaves humanity, so the State is quite rigorously insulated from the church. Official education is strictly non-religious (law forbids teaching religion in public schools), so therefore, the french put much virtue in Science (and the fabled cartesian spirit also helps). So it is quite normal that the french will rigorously embrace new technology without having any philosophical qualms about it.
And it does so far more than financial success (you just can't get rid of the the old scatholic foundations...), so plenty of people are drawn into scientific studies. Scientists enjoy recognition and are respected. So, naturally, luddites do not really get listened to...
This enables a great penetration of advanced technological ideas throughout society.
French scientists have a shallower knowledge that spans far more areas of interests, so they are more able to connect seemingly disconnected technologies together.
A most successful and innovative american company has fully understood this idea. Researchers working for the Minnesota Mining & Manufacturing company are forced NOT to spend 10 to 15% of their research budget on their primary research area. But they are quite free to spend it investigating side-effects discovered through their research. That's why they have so much innovative products.
Since then, it is only natural that education is freely available to anyone. The cream of the crop is also enrolled in the grandes écoles where they are given the best education for free, for which they then serve the State as the fabled highly-competent senior bureaucrates.
The government controls the TV station
Actually, the charter of the BBC is such that it is independant of the government - the government cannot influence its output. It is more of a publicly owned body than a state controlled service.
People in the UK (mostly) love the BBC, even those on the right politically. (They complain about it, but then they complian about everying). Even Thatcher was afraid to privatize it because she knew there would be outrage.
Here is a stort in Irelands Sunday Buisness post which purports to be a reflection of an official EU report on "connected" governments in the EU / EFTA area.
The top 10 are :
1. Ireland
2. Norway
3. Finland
4. Sweden
5. Denmark
6. Spain
7. Britain
8. Portugal
9. France
10. Austria
That's federal(or state or local), it's alittle annoying, but we can do it here(at least federal and some states).
register a child for a state school,
School Boards are run locally, so each has their own, not all that surprising considering the schools are at variable levels of technology
or be reminded that their regulatory car inspection is due in a month's time'
This is usually done on a state level.
So they cite three different activities and we as a nation handle them on three different governmental structure, we don't have the over arching Federal Govt that gets into local matters.(well within reason) So it's not surprising we don't have the same level here, even with greater population, we split the power up between the government levels.
Some of the things mentioned that this French government site can do are either things shared between the state and the feds, or just aren't mentioned in the Constitution and rest solely with the state. For example:
"pay taxes online"
If I recall correctly, you can pretty much do that already with your federal income taxes already through the IRS website, but it isn't the job of the IRS to collect state income taxes, or any other taxes levied by the state. Talk to your comptroller, or at the very least go to the website of your state government. For me, I'd have to find the Louisiana website for information on paying Louisiana income and property taxes.
"register a child for a state school"
Beyond those offered by the military for their dependants and the five federal academies, I don't think there is such a thing as a federal school. Elementary and high schools are usually the responsibility of the local government (county or city), while they only have to answer to state guidelines and standards. If you want to register your kid to attend local schools, talk to the local school board. They're at your county seat, not at Washington D.C.
"reminded that their regulatory car inspection is due in a month's time"
For commercial vehicles, while there are federal rules and regulations for your vehicle, it is up to the state to enforce them. As for personal vehicles, my title, registration and license plate are from the State of Louisiana, and the brake tag I got from St. Charles Parish. Frankly, I wouldn't want to have to deal with a city almost a thousand miles away for something as simple as my car. And if neither of those two governments provide what you're looking for, the only think you might be justified in complaining to the US Congress about is that they haven't set aside any money for state and local governments to set up such services.
So why can't we interact with the US federal government in the same way? At least 90% of the interactions your average citizen has with the federal government are with either the IRS or the USPS. Both of these organizations have very well-done, informative and useful websites. For anything else I suggest you check with your state website and/or see if your local government maintains a website.
I am involved now in a project that I think responds directly to the issue raised by the post.
The project is to create a portal to every company that contributed to financing the campaign of a representative.
The portal will centralize all information needed to ascertain that paid representatives are performing their fiduciary duties to the people who invested hard earned money in their campaigns.
The portal will have forms for donation as well as RFLs ( Request for Legislation ). And we are now devising a method to integrate issues of tax relief and lifting regulation. One idea is to have a law that correlates the amount of tax to the ammount of regulation. But this is all still on the drawing board.
The project is financed from a special tax deduction "for streamlining the interaction between business and government".
-- look, cheese ahoy!
1) US has branded online gamblers as terrorists
2) All dealings with the IRS are a huge gamble
Hence, paying your taxes online would be considered gambling, and we all know how the US doesnt like to contradict itself.
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.