French Government Online-Why Isn't the U.S.?

DullTrev asks: "Looks like the French are pushing forward once again with their online government plans. The BBC News site has this article about the new portal about to be launched. The article says the portal 'will give every citizen a personal internet portal allowing them to pay taxes online, register a child for a state school, or be reminded that their regulatory car inspection is due in a month's time'. The UK government has had this portal up for a while, and are steadily expanding their services. This is all within the EU government systems that are (not surprisingly) encouraging online government all over the place. How does this kind of thing compare to the US?"

Comments

Why not U.S.?

[InfinityWpi]

Simple answer: Because we're an order of magnitude bigger. More population. More beaurocracy (yes, I know it's mis-spelled). More variables. Instead of having 30 million personal pages listing the same information, we need well over a hundred million pages, with different senators, different information, more extensive tax data... not to mention, someone has to decide who's in charge of all this. Does the IRS have to run the site? Who else would?

Re:Why not U.S.?

[loopkin]

More bureaucracy ????? you're kidding ? certainly not more than in France. We even have more bureaucracy than in the USSR.....

Re:Why not U.S.?

[dda]

Yes, indeed each Country in Europe could be more or less considered as a state of the U.S.
Thus, having this kind of system in the U.S. would mean having this System centralized for the whole europeen community.
That should not be considered as a whole centralized system for the U.S. too, but a local one for each state. (and maybe that could change in the future, with the laws and stuffs changing too).

Re:Why not U.S.?

[DarkDust]

I don't agree with this, because AFAIK is the population of the EU countries together comparable to the population of the US. And not all EU states are that far in e-government.

I agree with the problem of the bigger bureaucracy, but that's a general problem of the US, IMHO.

And like in the EU, certain states of the US could in fact try to establish e-government sites, couldn't they ? So the problem must be elsewhere.

Re:Why not U.S.?

[easter1916]

The EU population is ~400M, some ~175M larger than the US.

Re:Why not U.S.?

[InfinityWpi]

But the EU doesn't have an e-government. Various member countries do or are working towards it. But the EU does not. Likewise, various states in the US are looking into it (one would hope, at least), but the US Federal Government has a larger part in the life of it's citizens than the EU does in theirs.

Re:Why not U.S.?

[tony_gardner]

Not to be overly rude, but this is untrue. Each will have roughly the same number of variables in each country. I have no idea why you think that the French burocracy or tax system is simpler, this contradicts the facts. The only difference is then roughly 4 times the population. In computing terms, the difference between 30 million and 300 million pages is a matter of hardware. Not an excuse.

As for who runs it, a private company runs it. It's a service isn't it?

Re:Why not U.S.?

[sql*kitten]

Simple answer: Because we're an order of magnitude bigger. More population. More beaurocracy

That's simply not true. The US has a smaller population than the EU (285M and 376M) and a proportionally smaller public sector (the EU tax burden is 41.5%, US 29%).

The real root of the matter is that the EU has far too many politicians, bureaucrats and civil servants, too much money, and too little idea or inclination to do anything other than expand their role.

Re:Why not U.S.?

[dda]

"Ok, here all states are under one federal law, but I thing you can change this"

It's not that easy. The Europe is currently in formation, some europeen laws are out, but every coutry has still its own laws ( the same as in the U.S. I think ).
Before having a unified continent, (which is to what the european community is trying to tend) we still have to wait some years, at least, and witout any guarantee of success.

Re:Why not U.S.?

[JWW]

Ok, its a matter of hardware....

I wonder what kind of sweetheart legislation the phone companies are going to look for to be convinced to put the "hardware" in to let everyone in the entire US access their page at the same time (I'm thinking April 14th for example).

That would be a lot of fiber they'd be needing, its not just about servers.

Re:Why not U.S.?

[Thomas Miconi]

Simple answer: Because we're an order of magnitude bigger.

About 4.5 times bigger, more precisely (60 million inhbts).

BTW, isn't this a reason why you kept the federal model instead of becoming a big nation-state ?

What I mean is this: this e-government stuff should really happen at the state level. France is famous for being an embodiment of the good old nation-state, but the federal nature of the United States of America seems to lend itself pretty well to e-government, state by state.

Think about it: of all the bureaucratic stuff you must deal with as an American, how much has to do with local institutions (state, county or city), and how much is related to the federal government ?

Actually this would make it much more manageable in the US than in France. The population of South Dakota is two full orders of magnitude lower than that of France, isn't it ? (It is; I checked)

Thomas Miconi,
French.

PS: BTW, this has nothing to do with a gigantic web-database. The French are extremely sensitive when it comes to data privacy. The idea is more about replacing the counter than the data storage itself.

Re:Why not U.S.?

[Hallow]

France != EU.

Re:Why not U.S.?

[Thomas Miconi]

That's simply not true. The US has a smaller population than the EU (285M [census.gov] and 376M [www.scb.se]) and a proportionally smaller public sector (the EU tax burden is 41.5%, US 29% [umanitoba.ca]).

The real root of the matter is that the EU has far too many politicians, bureaucrats and civil servants, too much money, and too little idea or inclination to do anything other than expand their role.

The real root of the matter is that you don't know what you're talking about.

The EU is trying very hard to push freer markets (including diminishing the public service's wheight) down national government's throats. National governments and national populations are the real obstacle to massive deregulation (Britain being, unsurprisingly, an exception).

And, guess what ? We're pretty happy with that.

Thomas Miconi

Re:Why not U.S.?

[sql*kitten]

The EU is trying very hard to push freer markets (including diminishing the public service's wheight) down national government's throats. National governments and national populations are the real obstacle to massive deregulation (Britain being, unsurprisingly, an exception).

I'll believe that when I see CAP and the Social Chapter abolished.

Re:Why not U.S.?

[ahknight]

A government with an equal size and populous has already beaten the French to it: Texas.

The rednecks win again. w00t.

Re:Why not U.S.?

[pivo]

I disagree. I think it has something to do with whatever it is that makes it so hard to introduce new coins in the U.S., or convert to the metric system. This might be partly due to bureaucracy but I think it has more to do with our fear of change. Remember the panic over the Susan B. Anthony dollar coin? Or the huge marketing campaign to get people to accept the new quarters that were the same size but looked different?

We think the euorpeans are stuck in the past, but it's really us and we don't want to admit it.

Re:Why not U.S.?

[mr_stark]

Do you live in the EU?

I hardly think a link to a random PDF file - which contains only a graph can't be taken as de facto. I think the _real_ root of the matter is that in the EU much more money is spent of citizen welfare; free healthcare/education etc. Making sweeping generalisations such as:

The real root of the matter is that the EU has far too many politicians, bureaucrats and civil servants, too much money, and too little idea or inclination to do anything other than expand their role.

Is fine is you can support it with some evidence... so where is it?

Anyway back on to topic ;) There should be no reason why the US can't its just a matter of determination, if Dubbya wants it done then it will happen. Go write to you congressman/Senator rather than bitching in /.

My £0.02 worth

Re:Why not U.S.?

[Transwarp Conduit]

There was no "panic" over the Susan B. Anthony dollar. The SBA dollar was rejected for several reasons, but chief among them were:

(1) It was almost exactly the same size and shape as a quarter, and it was too easy to mistake one for the other when you were distracted or in a hurry. (Which, among other things, resulted in a lot of older vending machines - particularly newspaper stands - suddenly making windfall profits!)

(2) No compartment for them in the majority of cash registers. (This was also the downfall of the $2 bill, and will be one of the main reasons the Sacajawea dollar will also fail.) This has a huge impact on circulation - since there's no place for them in the drawer, they get tossed underneath along with the checks, food stamps, credit-card receipts, and odd-denomination bills ($2, $50, $100, etc.) and promptly forgotten about until the cashier closes their register and removes them. They almost never get given out as change - thus, the only place most people can get them is from the bank (or as change from some USPS vending machines). They get spent once, then wind up being thrown into the deposit satchel and sent right back to the bank. Thus, for the most part, they don't get carried around and spent, so people tend to regard them as curiosities and don't get in the habit of thinking of them as "real" money.

As for conversion to the metric system - one reason that never flew is because it was, for the most part, gone about in an extremely stupid fashion. The government and educational system was trying to push metrics onto everyone overnight... but there was no coordinated effort to simply stop selling things in pounds, quarts, and gallons and start packaging them in kilograms and liters instead, and nobody wanted to remember arcane conversion formulas and carry around pocket calculators to try and figure out how much of what they were buying, or how far they were driving and what kind of "kilometerage" they were getting per liter of gasoline. (Grocery shopping and gas tanks had the biggest impacts here... there was widespread suspicion that various companies were taking advantage of the confusion over the "old" price-per-gallon vs. the "new" price-per-liter to jack up the prices.)

Re:Why not U.S.?

[Daniel Dvorkin]

According to the latest US census data, there are about 21 million people in Texas. OTOH, there are over 50 million in France. And the Texas state gov't is waaay smaller, in both per capita and absolute terms, than the French national gov't. I'm not sure there's a meaningful comparison to be made between US state and national governments, regardless of their relative sizes; national governments even of small countries (and France is not small) have to think about things such as defense that even the largest US states don't have to worry about.

Re:Why not U.S.?

[corsoski]

well ... having read this post I can only say: read the first message, this was exactly the point.

Re:Why not U.S.?

[belroth]

No compartment for them in the majority of cash registers

You can't be serious, just move the 5s over one compartment etc, and put the high denomination bills bumped under the tray......

Re:Why not U.S.?

[coraxo]

the only problem for 'project' like this is money, but of course US goverment will rather spend billions dollars for new war aircrafts

Re:Why not U.S.?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never seen a more loaded headline on slashdot, and that's saying something. It also answers itself, so it's really like they loaded the headline, fired and are now proceeding to aim.
France did it so the US should? France builds the airbus does that mean its wrong for US workers to build boeing aircraft? The US has government managed wild mustang areas, France has government inspected baking standards. France enjoys Jerry Lewis... Vive le Difference says I!

Re:Why not U.S.?

[rking]

The EU is trying very hard to push freer markets (including diminishing the public service's wheight) down national government's throats. National governments and national populations are the real obstacle to massive deregulation (Britain being, unsurprisingly, an exception).

If the EU isn't the national governments and it isn't the national populations, then what is it?

Surely the bureaucrats don't have the power to decide that deregulation is a good thing if the national governments have decided the opposite? Don't they implement the policies agreed by the national governments? If it isn't the national governments who make the ultimate decisions then then who exactly is supposed to be running the show? If it is the national governments then it doesn't seem to mean anything to say that "the EU" wants one thing while the national governments oppose it.

Re:Why not U.S.?

[Kharny]

You mean apart from stalin doing the majority of "freeing" Europe from the Nazi's??? American casualties were the lowest in ww2, The Russians lost the most people, more than even the germans or the jews. Please take some real history classes. Furthermore, your military budget is already Twice as big as in WW1 and WW2 combined...

Because.......

[the_2nd_coming]

most of the stuff that these other governments are putting on their portals are done at the state level. and you can already pay taxes on-line at IRS.gov so realy there is no need for this type of portal at the federal level. however the states should, I live in Michigan and we have a very nice one here

population and federalism

[kaisyain]

Population of US: 250 million
Population of France: 50 million

And France has nothing like states' rights that the US has to cope with that makes us a patchwork of sometimes conflicting laws.

Re:population and federalism

[loopkin]

>And France has nothing like states' rights that the US has to cope with that makes us a patchwork of sometimes conflicting laws.

Actually, we have. Corsica and Alsace (trn ?), (and some other regions i think) more or less have special laws/regulations on many aspects covered by that portal. So i really wonder how it will work. Especially, each French city/county/region has its own taxes (we are professionals at taxing), so i wonder how it will work in that big portal....

Re:population and federalism

[swingerman]

And France has nothing like states' rights that the US has to cope with that makes us a patchwork of sometimes conflicting laws.

Cope with? Cope with? Please, study American History and realize that States' Rights is what this country was founded upon. Unfortunately, in today's leftist education system, we are miseducating our own people to disdain our history as well as why America is how it is.

Re:population and federalism

[easter1916]

That's because France is a republic, not a *federal* republic. Germany, however, *IS* a federal republic with ~80M people and has managed to do this.

Re:population and federalism

[altagir]

rectification :
Population of France: 60 million

also, France has still many territories outside Europe.

Why everyone's here trying to find excuses for US?
Nobody prevents you from implementing a provincial e-gov, being part or not of a more global scheme.

Re:population and federalism

[kaisyain]

It's not an excuse, it is an explanation, which is what the poster asked for. The analogy isn't perfect but comparing the US to the EU is much closer than comparing the US to France.

A more equivalent question would be: If France has done it why hasn't California?

(The US has many territories outside of the North America, too.)

Re:population and federalism

[Rand Race]

Yea, study history. Like the 1860-1865 period when we fought a little war over the whole state's rights thing. The state's rights people lost BTW. As for the founding fathers, perhaps you missed the Federalist Papers? It's been a contentious issue since the very founding of the nation.

Unfortunately, with today's right wing propaganda, we are being lied to regarding the origins of the nation as well as being misled as to how America came to be how it is.

Re:population and federalism

[firewort]

States' Rights was Jeffersonian, Alexander Hamilton and John Marshall were for strong federal government.

Hamilton and Marshall appear to have won out in practice. Federalism's benefit was that no state could unfairly create commerce problems with another state, but the downside is that the Federal government has far overreached it's bounds, largely thanks to Marshall.

quoting from the Smithsonian magazine:
Marshall and Jefferson were adversaries. Jefferson believed in states' rights -- that the colonies who ratified the constitution did so as sovereign states. He wanted the weakest federal government possible. Marshall knew that a federal government without the power to tax, to support a military and to regulate finance was a recipe for anarchy. For 34 years, in decision after decision, McCulloch v. Maryland, Gibbons v. Ogden, he built up the legal power of the Supreme Court and, with it, the power of the federal government. Jefferson and succeeding democratic Presidents were against everything Marshall did, but found themselves helpless before his legal expertise in reading the Constitution.

endquote.

States' Rights was pretty much dissolved by the Civil War, and only lately have there been good arguments for it, such as Oregon and their fight for the right to administer euthanasia.

Re:population and federalism

[mayar]

Another intressting question is why in France?

Since somewhere around 20% of the french people "is connected to the internet" (No i can't elaborate on that one, can't remember the source.. was some Swedish newspaper) and the interest for the internet is decreasing! ie. the amount of people planing to get some sort of internet conectivity within the next year decreased this year compaird to the last one.

Ofcourse the French intrest in English has been weak.. (eufemism) French are very protective of their language and their culture, and the predominetly english internet is thus iether a threat or unintressting.

So if your people is not very connected and not intressted its intressting to see how you make a democracy work online. Ofcourse it might be an insentive to get people online.. but .. not as a sole factor..

why isn't the US?

[taxman_10m]

What is firstgov.com?

One word : Privacy

[Shivetya]

Privacy concerns will hold off the US Government attempts to do something similar. (regardless if most Americans are ignorant of how just little privacy when it comes to personal records they have - they still hold tightly to the thought of "I still have some left"

Plus, I think the US is a little busy now with something more important than being online.

Re:One word : Privacy

[imrdkl]

Privacy as we have it (or at least want it) is a strange notion to most Euros. My (most gracious) host country over here has a complete and very up-to-date list of where everyone lives, and much more. The forms that come in the mail are considered mandatory for the sake of Statistical research. Compliance with registration and form-filling over here is considered a civic duty.

Just for the sake of remembrance, "open" records in Holland and other countries made easy pickins of the Jews and other "undesirables" during the Nazi occupation. The Dutch have, to their credit, proposed encryption of their public information. But it sounded like an escrow key thing, when I read about it. But thats still perhaps better than no protection of public information at all.

I guess it is mostly about sheer numbers, tho. As others have pointed out.

We already have this.

[Nightshade]

The US has had a government portal at firstgov.gov for quite some time.

Advantages of a central system...

[MosesJones]

The US has the problem that there are many State and Federal agencies that would have to communicate and cooperate. They are about as likely to do this as Bill Gates is to write an SMP patch for the Linux kernel. European countries have a history of central management and of delination and communication between agencies. It is this infrastructure that enables these sorts of projects to be built.

The US is liable to get disparate information portals that provide for specific needs in a variety of ways. The odds however of someone who lives in CA and has a business in NY having a single portal for all of his needs is practically zero. One web company had this idea and failed miserably. The nature of the US goverment makes it hard to imagine this happening. Germany however with its Federal system and different history and social infrastructure is liable to do this.

The main reason for the US not getting there is the social infrastructure that actively encorages States to go their own way and buck the Washington line. This tends not to exist within the European countries as even beauracrats at the local level are considered under the same banner as those at the national level.

An EU wide portal is also a possibility as there is a history of inter-country cooperation on large scale projects (Concorde anyone) and there is that ethos of distributed and deliniated goverment in a manner that does not exist in the US.

Its more a social thing than a technology thing.

Re:Advantages of a central system...

[pete-classic]

You clearly don't appreciate (or seem to understand) our system, so why don't you STFU about it?

There are critical reasons why we have a system full of contentious factions (States vs. National, Legislative vs. Executive, etc.)

To grossly over-simplify, every time people are oppressed en masse, or murdered in huge numbers it is by a government under one banner. (And yes, I am acutely aware of the plank in our eye. A. Jackson was able to collect too much power to the Executive to genocidal results.)

Oh, and regarding your sig, we risk getting shot by carrying guns to stave off just this sort of thing, or don't you recall a couple little things called WWI and WWII? We don't get invaded much. (Which is clearly partially attributable to geography, but can you imagine invading a country with > 1 firearm per capita? (Which AFAIK means the US or Switzerland. Hmm, they don't get invaded much either . . .)

-Peter

Re:Advantages of a central system...

[Captain_Chaos]

Actually, I think a US-wide government site would be easier than a European one. You can't really compare the US to Europe; the US are one country, Europe is many countries that differ more culturally and in the way they are governed than the different states of the US do.

You should compare those government sites of the UK and now France to one single US state having a site like that. That should be no harder to do than here in Europe.

Re:Advantages of a central system...

[Anonymous Coward]

You clearly don't appreciate (or seem to understand) our system, so why don't you STFU about it?

Where exactly did he insult our system, or say it was inferior?

All he said was that a centralized web portal for government interaction is impossible in the US for the reasons he cited, and he's absolutely correct.

Re:Advantages of a central system...

[geekoid]

'harder' is not the issue.
In the EU the countrys (for the most part) are looking to become one power.
The US is founded on each state being a seperate entity under a federal system.
Yes I know corporations are trying to put an end to this, and yes it pisses me off.
The next time we take up arms, it will be against corporations, and there boards. whom with then ply political pressure upon the government to bring force upon its people. This will be the first time martial law will have been established in the US. This will happen with in ten years.

Canada's doing the same.

[Nijika]

Canada has a huge push towards online government. Take a look.. here

Re:Canada's doing the same.

[kawlyn]

The Canadian Initiative is called GOL (Govenment Online). All federal departments have to have thier services available online by 2004. the man site is here and the GOL info is here .

It's a ptetty big initiative, but they are making a lot of progress. It's looking like every taxpayer is going to have a government issue PKI key.

in some respects we do...

[josquint]

I can file and pay taxes online, both state and fedreal, check and renew vehicle registration, register for schools, both secondary and post-secondary, check if i'm a registered sex offender :), or on the FBI's most wanted list hehe.

Really though, we i would have to agree with the first post(WOW an ONtop FP!!! kudos!!) We are a slightly larger country. And we have these things called states. Most things listed in the French Online Govt are done by our state level Govt. And, at least my state, impliments quite a few online accesses. I still say there could be more though, but it is getting there. And as for a Federal Online Govt... well... off hand there's not much i can think of that i'd really need/want access to, at least nothing that i don't have alread.

That, and security converns... Identity theft is already too easy with many multiple databases. But, if you could get someone's SSN and pull up EVERYTHING in the MasterList. WOAH.. too easy!

Do we really want it?

[dave-fu]

I can't help but think of things like universal IDs and the like, and cookies harvested without our knowledge to be fed into our corporate masters' databanks. Add to this the unlimited potential for mischief when hackers break the websites down and, uh.
What does a website give us that the tried-and-true paper forms and human interaction doesn't?

Re:Do we really want it?

[david614]

Convenience. Efficiency.

Hopefully security (I am only being partially ironic).

Dbbbbbbb

Entitlement

[Count]

I love the idea of being able to handle civil affairs over the net. I am just afraid that this would push further the idea that internet access is some how an entitlement. There has been alot of talk about the 'digital divide'.

"some policymakers in Washington are calling for the creation of a new entitlement to address what they perceive as a national civil rights crisis"
- Heritage Foundation

Personaly I think this is a load of crock. The internet is a wonderfull tool but we are not entitled to internet access. But this is a little offtopic sorry.

Firstgov

[alen]

check out FirstGov website . The US Government has many online resources.

A few months ago I got a virus infection and the doctor gave me some anti-biotics. Out of curiosity I went to the FDA website and was surprised to learn that the drug companies can do some of things to certify their drugs online.

The US government also has an IP network physically separate for classified information. I have seen a lot of work get done over it.

UK site appears to work under Opera!

[tomknight]

Good grief, this really suprises me - the UK site works under Opera (Win32), without making my browser pretend to be IE5.x!

Admittedly, I haven't actually filled in the forms properly (tax return? No thanks! TV license? No thanks!), but it all looks pretty good.

Tom.

Re:UK site appears to work under Opera!

[iBod]

It helped that the british intelligence community all use Linux

Wow! Now there's an interesting factoid - but hmmm, wait just a second...

a) You could only know this by being inside the UK intelligence community.

b) If 'a' is true then you will have signed the Official Secrets Act.

c) The software the UK intelligence community uses is a secret.

If (a && b && c) then you are in contravention of the Official Secrets Act and must go directly to jail!

However, the most likely scenario is...

d) You're full of it!

`Progress' in the UK

[Cally]

I was just looking at a job ad in the paper - probably a bit ambitious for me, but why not give it a go? I thought. "Head of Web Services" for the UK Home Office; that'd look great on the CV, looks like a fun job too, and well paid. "For details, write to:..." it says. Ah, but look - there's an URL for the outsourced recruitment firm they've retained! I'll use that.


Check it out on their website: you couldn't make this up...

Re:`Progress' in the UK

[DrSpin]

Hang on, it was on www.silicon.com a couple of days ago, that the whole lot had been outsourced to the people who feature most frequently in www.websitesthatsuck.com, and Ross Perot (EDS).

I think you should be applying elsewhere.

Re:`Progress' in the UK

[dazed-n-confused]

"For details, write to:..." it says.

Trust me: that's a deliberate filter, to weed out anyone who can't be bothered to write a snailmail letter (or snaffle out a URL the way you did) in pursuit of this job. They want to be sure you're serious. Dealing with mountains of timewasting applicants is a *big* problem for all recruitment agencies: this is an easy way of cutting down the number of no-hopers.

Another Simple Answer

[swingerman]

France and England are both dominated by a large central government. That kind of government situation lends itself to one large storehouse of information. The United States of America is a union of (ideally) independent states.

The federal government's purview does not cover the information that is of most relevance to the citizenry. The service that the federal government could provide would be limited to searching for information and paying taxes (which the majority of us don't do anyway because of the payroll deduction, but that's a separate discussion).

The utility of this service to the average citizen would be far less than the cost of developing it and maintaining it. This service is better left up to the states where the people live. Those states who want it can pay for the development and maintenance of their own portal, but we all shouldn't be forced to pay for something that would not benefit us.

Why we're not online

[sealawyer]

The biggest reason why there isn't a national portal for most of this stuff is that many of the functions are a matter of state law.

Car inspections, school registrations etc are not federal government functions.

Also I think civil liberties minded folks would be a little concerned about a centralized data base that had all this information in it. Besides the potential for official and unofficial abuse, you just know someone would come up with the idea to raise money by selling the database.

Internet Aceptance

[Jucius Maximus]

How much of France's population is online to begin with? Even in this day, only about half of U.S. homes have internet. And most of that half are using AOL to begin with.

I suspect that France has a much higher percentage of citizens with real ISPs than the United States, so naturally this idea would fly beter over there.

Also, and I am generalising here, I think it's generally known that Europeans tend to be more liberal to new systems and technologies than North Americans.

I think it will be at least 2005 before something like this becomes the norm in the US. And then another 5 years to get people to trust it after it's hacked (because it would inevitably be overhyped, integrated with .NET and passport, and get out the door before it's ready.) [Please let's not let this discussion turn into an overblown anti MS rant...]

Re:Internet Aceptance

[easter1916]

I suspect that France has a much higher percentage of citizens with real ISPs than the United States, so naturally this idea would fly beter over there.

The reverse is actually true. France has one of the lowest levels of Internet penetration in the EU, much lower than in the US.

Re:Internet Aceptance

[tubs]

Doesn't everyone with a phone line in France have access to thier "minitel" system?

Re:Internet Aceptance

[easter1916]

Yes -- but that isn't the Internet, it's Minitel content. I think they introduced gateway access to Internet content recently, but cannot comment on how effective that is as I haven't seen it. Minitel was cool enough in its day.

Re:Internet Aceptance

[Pig Hogger]

How much of France's population is online to begin with? Even in this day, only about half of U.S. homes have internet. And most of that half are using AOL to begin with.

Far more than everywhere else in the world, thanks to the 20 year old Minitel network...

Re:Internet Aceptance

[Jucius Maximus]

"I suspect that France has a much higher percentage of citizens with real ISPs than the United States, so naturally this idea would fly beter over there."

"The reverse is actually true. France has one of the lowest levels of Internet penetration in the EU, much lower than in the US."

But when you subtract the number of AOL users in the US, I suspect that France would have higher penetration.

Not just the EU

[Anonymous Coward]

Although we don't have a single portal for all the services, in Brazil we can already do a lot of our dealings with the government through the net. All taxes (and there are lots of them), for instance, can be paid on the net. Although we don't have a convenient car inspection reminder, we can look for tickets we may have overlooked and pay them online. We can also obtain information about a used car we're planning to buy to see if it's inspected, not stolen and has any outstanding tickets.

US Population: 285 million; France: 58 million

[InitZero]

Dude! Have you ever tried to have a dinner party with six guests? Fairly easy, right? Try to put on the same dinner party with 28 guests. All you need to do is make more, right? It ain't quite that easy.

The United States is a big place.

InitZero

Re:US Population: 285 million; France: 58 million

[jay42]

A dinner party with 28 guys from the US is far easier that with one with 6 French ;-)

Any "trois etoiles chef" amongst us ?

Re:US Population: 285 million; France: 58 million

[vscjoe]

It's not the 285 million people that are the problem (once you have solved the problem for 58 million people, the rest is probably mostly a lot of extra hardware), it's the 50 states, zillions of counties, and dozens of federal agencies that would rather die than talk to each other.

And that profusion of governmental entities in the US seems deliberate. In the US, limiting the power of government through disorder, confusion, and lack of integration is a way of life. The French believe in bureaucracy and at least superficial order and rationality. I can't really say which is "better", but it does explain some of the differences.

Re:US Population: 285 million; France: 58 million

[belroth]

Don't bet on it......

Re:US Population: 285 million; France: 58 million

[Kharny]

Wrong, Most europeans like the french, exept ofcourse for the Brits ;).
The americans are still the most hated around the world, Popularity in European nations goes Appriximately like this:
1 Dutch/Belgians.
2 Germans (exept in France)
3 French/spanish/italians
4 Brits

French local taxes also

[iworm]

Not sure how valid a comparison it is with those saying "Not in the US as we've so many federal differences" but just last week I paid my local (n.b. similar to state, up to a point) taxes (Taxe d'habitation) here in France via the central gov portal site.

Really does seem to work OK. One can only hope that one benefit will be to improve efficiency and result in lower taxes. However I somehow doubt it!!

We're getting there

[ckaminski]

With a plethora of agencies and organizations, nevermind the separate laws and requirements of 50 disparate states, I'm amazed with what we do have.

Many states have their entire law libraries online, as well as the DMV/RMV vehicle registries.
If it weren't for the need to have an updated photo, we could get our driver's licenses renewed online....

We take this for granted, www.irs.gov, www.treas.gov, www.whitehouse.gov, FBI, CIA. I mean, other than taxes, what does the average citizen deal with when dealing with the federal government?

Re:We're getting there

[monkeydo]

If it weren't for the need to have an updated photo, we could get our driver's licenses renewed online....

In Texas you can at the DPS website.
http://dps.texasonline.state.tx.us/

Now that all the photos are digitized they just print off another one. The website is recent, but for at least the last 5 years you could renew by mail if you had a clean record.

Re:France is Quasi-Socialist

[DarkDust]

Excuse me, but privacy laws in europe are stronger than in the US. Ask Microsoft or any other big american companies about that.

Are you kidding?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, but the potential problems like to arise from poor security in such a system make it a thing to be avoided in my books. Considering the sympathies of the current administration, I don't think we have to stress ourselves out to figure out what company would get the contract to implement the system. When we can be confident the system will have adquate security, sure ... but not now.

The Editor should have read the submitter's post..

[duffbeer703]

I don't think whoever submitted this story meant to say that the US gov't has a lousy or non-existant presence on the web. He just asked for a comparison between European and US pages.

Personally, I think the US Federal and most state webpages are pretty good tools for locating information. It is certainly a hell of alot easier than navigating a maze of phone numbers or finding someone that you know who already knows the information that you need.

The only thing that many government websites are missing are electronic forms. That lack has more to do with budgetary constraints than anything else though.

The US government *IS* online.

[easter1916]

http://www.firstgov.gov

Re:Firstgov

[Anonymous Coward]

A few months ago I got a virus infection and the doctor gave me some anti-biotics.

Sounds like your doctor is a jackass. Antibiotics don't work on viruses.

Security ... and the lack of experts at government

[Wizard of OS]

I am in the process of writing a paper about why it is a Bad Idea(tm) for governments to do more on the internet than just providing information. The dutch government is busy with plans that would enable one to do the things mentioned here (pay tax, applying for funding, etc.). They have huge plans with lots of buzzwords like 'iris scan' and 'smartcard', but they forget that the johndoe behind the screen doesn't know what a computer does.

He doesn't know that clicking on an e-mail attachment (that seems to come from secretary@dutchgovernment.nl) could let a trojan loose on his system, one that becomes active AFTER authentication with smartcard/iris scan, one that changes keystrokes but doesn't show that to the user.

Doing things like this is acceptable for companies, because they are profit based and take risks all the time. For governments, it is totally unacceptable that this is possible, but unfortunately they have spent literally millions of euro's on pilots and can't reverse the process. Somebody has to make clear to them that the internet + computers == not a secure infrastructure, but well ... is there anybody who will listen?

My apologies for my bad english, I'm Dutch.

Re:we have gov't by the corporations, not people

[taxman_10m]

The people vote. Your problem is with them.

How does this kind of thing compare to the US?

[overshoot]

The US took its first major step last month with the Microsoft settlement: MSN will be the "US Government online."

These are all addressed on a state level

[CaptainSuperBoy]

Some of these services are already available online depending on what state you live in. Things like registering your kid for school, registering your car, and paying tax (not Federal of course) are all done on a state level here, which is the way it should be. One of the principles our country is founded on is the belief that many things are best done on the state and local levels. Putting these services online at a federal government level just wouldn't make much sense, and it would clearly take power away from state governments, to do things in a way that is best for their specific residents.

Here in Massachusetts, we can already do most of the stuff you mentioned online. You can renew your driver's license, car registration, etc. online at the RMV's web site. You can also pay your state taxes online or by phone. People in the US can electronically file with the IRS, too.

We are a country based on decentralized government. Centralizing web services that should be run at a state level just doesn't make sense.

Re:These are all addressed on a state level

[Hallow]

How about a federally operated portal that provides links to all these services that the states offer?

In other words, don't centralize the services... but centralize the way people find the services.

Re:Just because EU is more openminded than USA ...

[alen]

What a crock. I bet everyone in the US wants to pay 70% of their income to taxes to support corrupt governments and a huge social welfare system. And all the small businesses out there are just dying to have the government regulate them to death. I spent 4 years in Europe and it sucks. Nice place to visit for the history, but horrible to live in. The US is years ahead of everyone else in every thing. Maybe you should get your jobless rate to less than 10% before you say how good the European economy is.

Cyprus government is online too...kind of.

[TV-SET]

Well, Cyprus goverment is online too. Here is a link to their web site: http://www.cyprus.gov.cy/.

It is even in three languages English, Greek and Turkish, and works in Opera for Linux. So, I would say it's pretty cool.

Re:Cyprus government is online too...kind of.

[TV-SET]

Yeah, a real shame. Not my fault though. I am russian :)

US looking to implement separate gov't network

[RedX]

According to this NY Times article, the US government is actually looking to implement their own secure network for their various agencies to share that would be separate from the larger network. I found the paragraph below quite interesting when taken in the context of the open-ness that this thread is asking about: "Some in the technology industry fear what they see as the implications for the Internet: a separate cyberspace system for the government, they say, might create a trend in which other institutions as well would begin building their own networks separate from the Net. Civil libertarians, meanwhile, ask whether the idea would make the government less accessible to the people."

Re:US looking to implement separate gov't network

[firewort]

You mean SIPRNET, NIPRNET, and INTELNET ?

They've had these for a while.

France as an ideal to follow????

[kevin42]

Just because France is doing something doesn't mean that the US should do the same. We'd have serious problems if that was how we decided our future (by France's example).

Re:France as an ideal to follow????

[iworm]

A little touchy? Heaven forfend that the US should "copy" France, or France imitate the US, or any country slavishly copy any other country. Vive la difference and all that jazz.

However that's not to say that one can't look at other countries and see what's good and what's bad about them, and maybe, just maybe, learn how to improve one's own country. Unless of course you think you're beyond improvement? (and you can read that last sentence as you wish ;-))

Re:France as an ideal to follow????

[kevin42]

Not touchy, I just think the headline makes assumptions that we should do something just because France does it.

As the headline says:

"French Government Online-Why Isn't the U.S.?"

Re:Just because EU is more openminded than USA ...

[easter1916]

I refer you to the Netherlands, Ireland, Portugal -- each has unemployment 5% and strong social protection.

Re:we have gov't by the corporations, not people

[HCase]

Yes the people do vote... that doesn't mean that this problem is caused by then. The argument could be say that if you don't like the current form of government then vote for someone that would change it. The problem is that this would be a blind vote. The national debates invite canditates only from parties that have recieved a certain percentage of the votes.(5%?) It is hard to vote for someone when they aren't able to even discuss the issues with the "big boys."

Didn't anybody here see Startup.com?

[Robber Baron]

Didn't anybody here see Startup.com?. It was a documentary (screened abut half a year ago in a few theaters) about the travails of a startup known as Govworks. As a side point, one of the things I found interesting about this film was how many of the characters were so like people I had worked with. (I think it should be required viewing for anyone who has been or is involved with any kind of internet "startup"...preferably before one gets too deeply involved.)

Their govt. online?

[GISboy]

Did anybody say "Yahoooooo"?

Oops, no wait....

What you read is not exactly the truth

[nsebban]

I can't believe what I just read.

I'm french, I live in France, I pay my taxes in France, and I can tell you that French Government has a really bad policy about internet. Taxes Paying Portal exists, but many many many errors occured this year, and many many many people had to pay penalties, and some even paid their taxes twice !

Same thing about french government putting laws online, 6 months after they were voted.

Believe me, French Government is not online, and French Government is not internet-compliant :(

Slightly low population numbers

[scotpurl]

285,573,701 from the US Census page (www.census.gov).

As for the population of France, the 1999 French Census came up with 60.185.831 people, which I'll round up to 61 million.

But, yes, point taken. The U.S. has about 4 times as many people as the French.

Linux support

[sxpert]

Furthermore, I will add that our government also supports the use of Linux, as this this page states, people can download a java version of the forms filling tool, that allows online filing of a zillion of various things.

Re:Firstgov

[alen]

I never said he was a good doctor. But because of that little stunt I am on the lookout for a new doctor in NYC. One who accepts Blue Cross.

Re:Remember this, though

[GeZ117]

Actually, it wasn't the French gov't, but 3 french association (one jewish and two antiracism association IIRC, but maybe 2 jew and 1 antiracism).

That ain't because it comes from France that it has been made by the French government, you know. We're less communist than the professional trollers think.

I've seen a lot of excuses

[jd]

About how the US is "big". If you have 3 things to remember, you can probably just memorize them, right? 30, and you'd start to make a list. 3 million, and you'd use a computer.

The point is, the more information you need to process, the more efficient you need to be, to do as good a job.

The US Govt used to have -some- computer systems. But a certain President Bush got rid o his e-mail account. Anyone know who that idiot could be?

The banks in America seem to handle online transfers. There are plenty of companies which do online checking. The weather information centers can handle an entire continent of meteorological data, online. Volume ain't the issue, guys! GWB's hatred of the digital is.

Re:I've seen a lot of excuses

[jd]

Gaining office by questionable means, creating a secret police, and nearly staring World War III three times in less than a year is doing his job?

If that's success, give me failure! There's less risk of destroying civilisation in the process.

England != UK

[gorilla]

England is one of the countries in the UK. The other 3 are Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Each one of the has unique characteristics and laws. Only Ignorant Americans think that that UK is England.

Re:England != UK

[blair1q]

Blame Canada.

--Blair
"And you thought that was just a motto."

Re:Firstgov

[DGolden]

But they do help prevent opportunistic bacterial superinfections that often occur when the body is weakened by viral attack.

Trivial example: if you have a "real" cold, you have a _viral_ illness. If you have _just_ a cold, your snot should actually be clear and runny. If your snot is green or yellow, chances are you actually have a bacterial superinfection that is making things worse. (If you snot is always coloured, like a significant proportion of the population, you probably have a continuous background level of bacterial nastiness living in your nasal passages).

(N.B. superinfection just means an on-top-of-another-infection infection, not some sort of really impressive infection).

We do have stuff online

[SCHecklerX]

...it's just at the state level:

http://www.state.pa.us/

The way they do some of their fill out forms is absolutely retarded though (activex???? java??? For a FORM???)

Re:Politics & IT

[Azghoul]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH

What a great troll, I take my hat off to you.

Re:Just because EU is more openminded than USA ...

[alen]

What about the VAT, gasoline and everything else combined.

what about the states?

[Midnight Thunder]

Fair point, but what about on the state level? Since a lot of the aspects pointed out in the submission are actually run on the state level, rather than the federal level, surely we should at least see some of the larger states doing something? Are there any states that have looked towards doing this, or are doing this? The least the federal government could do is provide the necessary links to the state websites. Currently if I type www.gov.us I get nothing This, IMO, would certainly be a great entry point to the network?

Re:Just because EU is more openminded than USA ...

[JonnyCalcutta]

Shut yer fat pusshole or Uncle Jed'll give yer a whoopin'.
Don't yer never forget that we is the crud that got thrown outer that there Yoorup due to us bein' so fat and stoopit ... or to put it another way - One mans Pilgrim Fathers are another mans unwanted religions nutters.

Infrastructure

[DrSLIM]

It's simple. I lived in France for 2 years and like the other posters said they do have a smaller population. But, consider aslo their government is more centeralized, there is little privitazation in the telcom industry and (this is the big one) they have the minitel http://www.minitel.fr/ system already in place. Granted is sucks, you have to pay for it and there is a huge gap between the haves and have-nots (just like in the US) but having a portal to the govt through a system that is already in most urban, Franch homes is not that much of a streach.

State Government

[Icy]

My guess is that it would be more likely for state governments here in the US to do something similar just due to the size and differences between the states. Things like schooling and car inspections are controlled more by the states the the US government. The IRS allready allows for paying US taxes over the interent, and states like Mass have state taxes done over the internet. I bet that most of those other things can allready be done, there just might not be a central personalized portal in each state.

Polish Gov is M$ only, Mac and Linux barred

[alfredo]

The Polish Government has such a portal, but if you want to do business with the Polish government you have to be running windows and have a proprietary piece of Windows software*. Sun had to get a PC with Windows so they could do business in Poland.

With Asscroft and Bushleague in control and on the MS payroll, you know what will happen here.

*Apple Poland fought to have the software ported to other platforms but lost.

Can't really do this in U.S.

[Quila]

Some things mentioned that are being done in Europe can be implemented in the U.S. on a federal level, such as IRS, immigration, etc. But most actual services to the citizens would have to be done on the state or county level, like voter/car/school registration and workers benefits.

We just don't have the same structure as the Europeans to have a one-stop-shopping comprehensive service portal.

If the Constitution were being more closely followed these days, the on-line services of the federal government would actually be almost nothing.

Re:Can't really do this in U.S.

[Estimator]

I am tired of ignorant Americans that seem to have no concept of the differences between Europe and the US.

In spite of the US chestbeating about State's rights and their pride in diversity, the States have far less differences between them than European COUNTRIES. For that matter, the States have far less autonomy.

Has this person never been outside of his own State (let alone the US)? Don't people like these posters realise that Britain, Spain, France, Germany and Italy speak different languages, have different national parliaments, constitutions and laws? I know California is about to adopt Spanish as its official language, but that is not quite the same.

Even within those countries, there is a strong local government. Germany is a federal republic. Britain has two parliaments beside Westminster - the Welsh assembly and the Scottish parliament.

Re:Can't really do this in U.S.

[Quila]

This poster has lived in four states and has lived in Europe for the last 10 years.

I think you misunderstood, I meant "Europeans" as each of the countries in Europe being able to put their services on the Internet for their own people. Not one big European program with countries on the level of U.S. states.

Yes, Germany is a federal republic, and they have states and "counties." But much of the information is so well integrated that web services shouldn't be a problem.

About the only big difference I've seen in states in Germany is that Bavaria seems to stand out from the rest quite a bit, and when the Greens get powerful in a state, things get strange for a while. However, the difference between Bavaria and Hessen is a lot less than, say, the difference between California and Mississippi.

Re:we have gov't by the corporations, not people

[alfredo]

The government portal will be controlled by one corporation, the one who gave the most or can give the most to the party in power.

If you happen to use software made by a competitor, forget about using the portal. That is what happened in Poland. Microsoft paid off the government and now businesses are compelled to use Windows if they want to do business in Poland.

Re:France is Quasi-Socialist

[GeZ117]

That would Grand Frère. And it is not seen as something good.

In France, there is less distrust in (and more reliance upon) the government. Yes. But there is less reliance upon (and more distrust in) private corporations.

That sounds communist for the average troll, but you should keep in mind some basic things.

In the French vision, the government is made by the people, for the people, and takes its decision in the better interest of the people.

When a government fails, it is disposed, violently if needs be (everyone have heard, at least, of the French Revolution ?). We're actually in our 5th republic, and the topic of a 6th one comes regularly.

But, in the French vision of how things are, a private corporation is made by people who don't give a fuck about other people, wildlife, public health, employment rate, or anything; except the money they earn.

Because earning money is the definition and meaning of life of a private corporation, not ethics, civil rights, or any other things like that.

People in the US is suspicious of big government databases. People in France is suspicious about big corporate databases. And, actually, I havn't heard of things like the CNIL (Commission Nationale Informatique et Liberté) who watch and prevents privacy abuses from government and pricate organizations alike.

Reading Slashdot, I often get the feeling that people from the US sees governments as a necessary evil, trying to oppress and spy upon the citizens, whereas pricate corporations are utopian-minded selfless organizations promoting freedom, civil rights, respect for life, human rights, and environment.

Although it would be naive to say I believe in the reverse, I sure trust less corporations than government. At least, the government is legitimized in its position by the constitution, and has clear duties it needs to respect.

Re:French government online

[johndill]

Sigh...."Hello..McFly...knock, knock..." You have not seen any picture of American Troops in Afganistan? Not the ones on horseback fighting with the alliance? Not the special forces parachuting in at night near Kandahar? Not the special Forces troops spotting on the groud for the artillery? I have a web site for you www.cnn.com. When DeGualle asked President Johnson to remove US/Nato troops from France after France "QUIT!!" NATO, I loved Johnsons response: "Do you want us to move out our hundred thousand dead, too?" Give up like you did for Hitler and pipe down.

simplest answer usually overlooked

[SpacePunk]

It's the paperwork. Paperwork needs people to process. Lots, and lots of people. By not moving any services to the WWW, they ensure their own job security.

Bull5h!t

[Saib0t]

Ressource of US = 5* ressource of France too...
Considering there's an overhead to everything, it'd actually be easier for the USA than for france. If you want excuses, blame your government to spend money on... Well... on stuffing their pockets.

And France has nothing like states' rights that the US has to cope with that makes us a patchwork of sometimes conflicting laws.

Who's voting? Me? No... You are... Blame it on yourselves...

I got karma to burn, mod me down into oblivion if you want, but you(collectively) are still responsible for what's bad (as well as what's good) so don't start saying "yeah, but others have an easier time" and move your arse.

Re:Bull5h!t

[Sentry21]

Who's voting? Me? No... You are... Blame it on yourselves...

I got karma to burn, mod me down into oblivion if you want, but you(collectively) are still responsible for what's bad (as well as what's good) so don't start saying "yeah, but others have an easier time" and move your arse.

Alright, then I propose that the reason this hasn't been done is one of the following:

1. Americans are, on the whole, lazy and unmotivated, and don't do anything they don't have to
2. Americans are, on the whole, greedy and self-centred, and don't do anything that won't make them money, or, in the case of politicians, that won't get them elected - and since politicians are elected based on how much money they spend on their campaign, and corporate dollars fund the bureaucracy, there's no reason to help out the average person.

Yeah, I've got karma to burn too.

--Dan

Re:Bull5h!t

[Saib0t]

I think you're right, and I really think it's too bad... Problem is that I got absolutely no idea about how to change that fact...

Offtopic Side note: The advantage of having karma to burn is that you don't have to be afraid to express your opinion for fear that some moderator who doesn't AGREE with what you say mod you down (happens too much nowadays), instead of modding you down because you're trolling/flaming/offtopic.

US Gov. On-line=

[Anonymous Coward]

I will summarize as quickly as possible:

1.) It is on-line. Various federal agencies and states have on-line system. Massachusettes has a nice one. Remember: United STATES. We aren't kidding about that. I can pay federal and state taxes on-line. No good reason to do that but I can do it.

2.) The government doesn't do as much in the States thus much of what the European Govs provide is provided in the US by private corporations. The private corps have on-line systems. In fact, they have had them before the internet was popular. My Electric company had a bbs years ago. My Phone company deducted directly from my bank account using the old bank networks etcetera.

3.) Scale matters. The United States is emmense. There are 285 million people now and we are growing faster than some developing nations now in terms of population. I had some European friends in Massachusettes once that asked how many hours it would take to visit Texas by car.

I had to laugh. How many DAYS would it take just to hit the border of Texas which itself is the size of Germany.

Thus, getting 50 states to merge their already existing net systems into a federal system when the state systems have been working for years seems a rather daunting amount of effort for little gain.

In fact, I honestly don't think this would work well in other European nations such as Italy. Even in Italy things are more decentralized than you would think.

There isn't one way of doing this and it isn't all that important actually. We think the net is all important but in reality it just leaverages the existing technology and systems we have.

I think the ATM has changed my life more than the web. Money coming out of walls? What a wonderful country!

Re:French government online and dumb stuffs

[johndill]

The French troops in Bosnia, are they the same ones that say "Bon Jour" to the indicted war criminals that they see each day? If it wasn't for the Rusians Brits and Americans you would all be driving Volkswagons.

Just an idea...

[pubjames]

I've read all you Slashdotters responses to this. A lot of you seem to think that the US government is less online because of the size of the country. Sounds like an excuse to me.

I have an idea. It's just a little thought. Please don't mod me down as a troll. Here goes... Perhaps, just maybe, the UK and French governments are more on-line than the US government because, (deep breath), they are better organised than the US government. There, I've said it. I'm probably going to burn in hell now.

I think Americans often confuse their country's size with superiority. Yes, America is very big, but let's imagine for a moment that it was much smaller, say a fifth of the size, with a population of say, 50 million. Do you think it would be that 'superior' globally if that were the case? Would it have the most Nobel prize winners? (that would be the UK I think) Would it have the highest earning potential per capita? (That would be Switzerland) Would it have the freest citizens? (Probably Denmark). Would it have the highest standard of living? (Norway, according to the UN). Sorry, but I think the answers to these questions are no, no, no and no. America is a very big country, yep. But don't confuse that with an innate superiority.

Re:Just an idea...

[update()]

Not to feed a "My country is better than yours!" pissing match (personally I think that the difference between the US and France in government portals is due to a) the importance of local governments in the US system, b) the fact that the French are much less wary of government power and c) the French have been moving towards this goal for 20 years) but...

Would it have the highest earning potential per capita?...Would it have the freest citizens?...Would it have the highest standard of living?

Yes, but you're missing what is special about the US -- that while these advantages were being offered to Swiss, Danes and Norwegians, the US offered freedom and prosperity to my grandparents as they fled Europe with the clothes on their backs. (Maybe not as much prosperity as the Swiss obtained by pocketing my family's seized property, but nonetheless..) If Norway and Denmark had absorbed a significant fraction of their population in immigrants from around the world, decade after decade for centuries, they probably wouldn't be leading many lists either.

Re:Just an idea...

[pubjames]

Sounds like you want to partake in a pissing match to me...

The point of my email was not to say "my county is better than yours". In fact, my point was exactly the opposite. Many Americans do seem to believe that America is the greatest country in the world, and that the American people are in some way superior. Many people in Europe find that kind of sentiment ugly, and not a little dangerous.

So, no, I don't think we're better than you. I wish that you wouldn't persist in your belief that you're better than us.

Re:Just an idea...

[hey!]

I don't think there is any one perfect way to run a society, since they all involve tradeoffs that can be made different ways, like between indivdual opportunity and egalitarianism. America represents a relatively extreme position in the uinverse of European cultures in favor of rugged individualism, but it doesn't quite rise to the level of being a "winner-take-all" society.

As an American, I feel America is probably the best country in the world for me. Many Americans feel America is the best country for them, but somewhat naively assume this means its better for everyone. I think it is the naivite that is dangerous, not an understandable affection for a country that works well for you. I shouldn't have to state that kind of parochial sense of superiority isn't limited to this side of the pond. Many Europeans, even the intelligentsia, don't really understand Amercians very well, and tend to take a simplistic view of the role America plays internationally.

Present company excepted, of course.

Re:Just an idea...

[Me2v]

Let me, without forethought of malice, attempt to correct your misconceptions. You maintained:

"I have an idea. It's just a little thought. Please don't mod me down as a troll. Here goes... Perhaps, just maybe, the UK and French governments are more on-line than the US government because, (deep breath), they are better organised than the US government. There, I've said it. I'm probably going to burn in hell now"

You also made references to the size of the United States, and the American citizenry's assumption of superiority.

&ltrant&gt For what it's worth, America may or may not suffer from a superiority complex. In general, however, America has been and always is willing to help out her neighbors. This has been a hallmark of US foreign policy over the last century or more, and I believe far outweighs whatever cimes conspiracy theorists allege the US has committed. Also, consider that the US is a literal melting pot of cultures and races, with each race and culture bringing its own ideas of 'superiority'. I don't think we have a superiority complex so much--rather, I think that Americans sometimes fail to understand that other countries lack some of the freedoms we consider essential, and that we oftentimes equate technological abiltity with the health of a country. &lt/rant&gt

Anyhow, neither our population, nor your perception of disorganization in our governmental system, contribute to our current lack of a centralized portal. Rather, our current lack of a highly centralized government (may it continue forever!!) is why it would be extremely difficult to create a centralized portal to government service. Consider that we have two levels of government--State and Federal. State may at their option delegate, of course, to counties, and occasionally to cities. So, we have a Federal level of services (Federal Taxes, Inter-state commerce regulation, Treasury services, Social Insecurity, etc). Then we have a State level of services (State income taxes, vehicle registration in most states, driver licensing, business licensing--e.g., doctors, nurses, lawyers--welfare, etc). Beyond that, there are county/city services (Some cities have income tax, Some cities have vehicle registration, city/county property taxes, building inspection, local business regulation--alcohol for instance, and health codes, voter registration, etc). Add to that school districts in many states--my school district also charges property taxes, and there are school registration considerations.

As you can see, there are many, many different levels of government which are independent of each other. It would be a great undertaking to tie the Federal, State, and Local services together into one portal.

Now, please don't confuse our diversity of government as disorganization. We are actually quite organized. We like things the way they are for the most part. State and Federal levels of government balance each other out and keep each other from screwing the citizens too badly. Local government--well, in non-Mafia areas, we are the local government.

Our government is divided into levels, and we like it that way. Some things are more difficult (e.g., we don't have a snazzy central portal to government services), but for the most part, our government is kept where it belongs: in the background. Americans, in general, truly do not appreciate government interference in their lives. We look to the government for things like 09/11, or the OK City bombing, or major hurricanes or earthquakes. Otherwise, we prefer the government do what we set it up to do, and to stay out of the way.

Re:Just an idea...

[pubjames]

I don't think we have a superiority complex so much--rather, I think that Americans sometimes fail to understand that other countries lack some of the freedoms we consider essential, and that we oftentimes equate technological abiltity with the health of a country.

Funny!!

If you don't understand why it's funny, ask a non-American friend to explain.

Re:Just an idea...

[mangu]

Well, if the US offers so much "freedom and prosperity" to everyone, then why did an American World Champion in one sport feel he had to change his name from Cassius Clay to Muhammad Ali?

Re:Off-Topic - UK Government portal

[alfredo]

The government controls the TV station, instead of commercials, you pay directly. That is a lot cheaper than the cable bill I pay each month. If you get caught pirating cable, the cost will be higher than what they have to pay for non compliance with their license.

Watch the BBC news on QuickTime TV or your local PBS station and see what it is like not to have just 22 minutes of content per half hour.

Not Well paid

[Martin S.]

> ... and well paid.

£35247 - £50801 is not well paid for an IT Professional in central London, where a decent flat costs £150,000-£250,000. This is about right for 2+ years post grad experience, it's low for a deptartmental head.

A few reasons...

[Pig Hogger]

The french are more online, simply because...

• They were **THE** pionneers in instituting an online society.
  More than 20 years ago, they decided to implement the fabled Minitel in order to eliminate paper telephone directories.
• They're not anglo-saxons.
  So the french don't have that innate distrust of the State. Thus, they not only do not continually question what the State does, but they don't view working for the State as something demeaning, so the best minds are naturally attracted to work for the State so everyone benefits.
• De Gaulle did not like using a phone.
  He himself took maybe three phone calls a year, and made perhaps only one (on a good year) phone call on the same year (he didn't have a phone on his desk). Therefore, telephone infrastructure lagged sorely behind most countries (and was the butt of cruel jokes, like Fernand Raynaud's fabled: "Hello New-York, gimme the 22 at Asnières", which is said to have humiliated french telephone network engineers more than anything else. So, upon De Gaulle's resignation, the authorities embarked into a record-breaking research program to enhance the french phone network.
  The retarded phone network was a blessing in disguise, because in most cases, switches simply bypassed mechanical switching and they went from manual operators straight to digital packet-switching.
  This gave France a head-start in digital communications, which enabled them to quickly implement the Minitel network.
• They're catholics
  The french didn't have much choice but either to listen to the priests or to dump them, which is what they've been doing en masse for the last 200 years or so. (By contrast, a protestant can either find a sect that tells him what he likes, or simply make-up one of his own)
  Republican ideals naturally spurns religion as something which enslaves humanity, so the State is quite rigorously insulated from the church. Official education is strictly non-religious (law forbids teaching religion in public schools), so therefore, the french put much virtue in Science (and the fabled cartesian spirit also helps). So it is quite normal that the french will rigorously embrace new technology without having any philosophical qualms about it.
• French culture values intellectual achievement
  And it does so far more than financial success (you just can't get rid of the the old scatholic foundations...), so plenty of people are drawn into scientific studies. Scientists enjoy recognition and are respected. So, naturally, luddites do not really get listened to...
  This enables a great penetration of advanced technological ideas throughout society.
• The education system does not make specialists, but generalists.
  French scientists have a shallower knowledge that spans far more areas of interests, so they are more able to connect seemingly disconnected technologies together.
  A most successful and innovative american company has fully understood this idea. Researchers working for the Minnesota Mining & Manufacturing company are forced NOT to spend 10 to 15% of their research budget on their primary research area. But they are quite free to spend it investigating side-effects discovered through their research. That's why they have so much innovative products.
• France values education and culture.
  Since then, it is only natural that education is freely available to anyone. The cream of the crop is also enrolled in the grandes écoles where they are given the best education for free, for which they then serve the State as the fabled highly-competent senior bureaucrates.

French is not only about perfumes and good food, it's also about technology, science, research and, most importantly, FREE EDUCATION.

Re:A few reasons...

[deander2]

... they decided to implement the fabled Minitel [minitel.fr] in order to eliminate paper telephone directories.

Haha. Does this name worry anyone? It sounds very NewSpeak, and the fact the agency is designed to eliminate (telephone) books is even more 1984ish. What next? Minitrue? Minipax?

Re:A few reasons...

[Guppy06]

"So the french don't have that innate distrust of the State. Thus, they not only do not continually question what the State does, but they don't view working for the State as something demeaning, so the best minds are naturally attracted to work for the State so everyone benefits."

You seem to have neglected something here, though. I don't live in the United State of America. While in France the question of working for the state may be binary, potential government employes have to ask themselves whether they want to work for their state or federal government. And they are both mutually exclusive.

"They're catholics"

And we're not? This particular argument only holds true if any enclaves of American Catholics are weak and dispersed at best. However, I was born and raised in Maryland (a state founded by Catholics and still has a strong Catholic history... Note that the state flag isn't properly flown without a stylized cross atop the flagpole) and I currently live in Louisiana (another state with a strong Catholic history due to their French history), yet neither of these states have become a France in miniature, before or after embracing their Constitution-mandated republican governments. As for the embrace of technology of these two states, they couldn't be more different despite their shared religious history.

At any rate, it's interesting to note that while us mere English-speaking nations have an innate distrust of state, the French seem to have ended up with an innate distrust of religion. I'm curious now about which one is "more better."

Re:A few reasons...

[duffbeer703]

Catholics make up a good 30% of the population.

Piss off the Catholic voting blocks in the Northeast, and you'll soon be out of office.

Re:A few reasons...

[Brian_Ellenberger]

French Strike for Greater Productivity

Paris (SatireWire.com) -- Angered over reports that California's economy has surpassed that of France, dozens of French labor unions staged a massive, nationwide strike Friday, demanding the government investigate possible causes of the country's low per capita productivity.

"French workers should be the most productive in the world, and we will strike until the government can discover why we are not," said Rene L'ampoule, a spokesman for truck drivers who blocked most of the nation's major roadways.

According to the report, compiled by the Los Angeles Economic Development Corp., California's gross domestic product was $1.33 trillion last year, compared to France's $1.28 trillion. With 61 million inhabitants, France's population is nearly twice that of California, making the nation's per capita production half that of the U.S. state.

In the country's fifteenth nationwide strike this year, protesting miners, farmers, students, truckers, mechanics, teachers, engineers, entertainers, programmers, police officers, firefighters, and journalists, as well as factory, airline, rail, livery, clerical, and prison workers, said it was the government's responsibility to investigate. Government employees, meanwhile, said they would join the strike in sympathy.

Re:A few reasons...

[renoX]

You said "French are catholics".

No, thanks :-)
French WERE catholics would be far closer to the truch..
Now a large part of French are atheist/agnostic, there is only 60% of french people who call themselves catholic, and only 10% of French goes to church from time to time..

So catholicism is still a strong force in France, but it is going weaker and weaker: the young generation is even less catholic..

Re:A few reasons...

[guerby]

A few points:

• This year (2001) for the first time the Internet will surpass the Minitel in volume of payment in France.
• The French Prime Minister is Protestant, not Catholic. Religion is not a primary concern in France, and lot of people have the view that religion (catholic and other) looks more about killing each other than loving and helping each other. This might be because History is taught in school, so people have a chance to weight on the issues involved before running to church.
• One thing about the "grande ecoles" is that they specializing you only the last year (or the last two years), and they're either free (think $1K/year + living costs with cheap on-campus housing and food, mostly paid by state if your family doesnt have enough money) or you're paid to attend.
• The other thing is that even if your parent are billionaire, you can't get into a public engineering school if you don't pass the anonymous public exams ranked high enough. In short when in, you're not smart monkeys building the school reputation for rich-daddy ultimate idiots.
• France is built and run by engineers, not marketroids or money-making guyes (although this is slowly changing), so we have quite decent public shared infrastructure (I you think about it that's the most efficient solution!).

Re:A few reasons...

[manonthemoon]

1- Minitel is actually a long-term drag on France. As another poster in this thread noted the backward condition of the telephone network worked to France's advantage when it did upgrade during the "digital age". Conversely Minitel is a drag on adoption of the internet and use of the French language on it.

2- There seems to be a consistent thread of anti-religious bias coming from French posts. It appears there is an active antagonism being taught by the French school system equating religion to ignorance. I would urge those who have been indoctrinated in this way to throw their own blinders off. Religious belief is not necessarily an impediment to rational thought, education, or enlightenment. The comment that "Republican ideals naturally spurns religion as something which enslaves humanity" smacks more of a Communist tract or the Reign of Terror than anything truly Republican.

3- The American university system rewards individual achivement as much as any in the world. Scholarships are available from every institution and the cream of the crop are recruited heavily to the top schools- which aren't generally state sponsored schools by the way. If you're good enough you'll not pay a dime and likely have a stipend as well. Yes, being a capitalistic society a space is made for big donors- but those big donors make available thousands of scholarships available to the best and the brightest.

4- Considering the constraints placed upon us by our relatively light population density, I would say that America gets more bang for the taxpayer dollar for government services than any country excepting Australia (which is largely funded by taxing its natural resources). Our infrastructure is highly dependend upon the policies of the local state and municipalities. Many American cities have services that can favorably compare with any European city.

Many non-americans are as myopic about us as we are about them. Those of us from either group who have lived in both America and internationally tend to have a balanced view of the whole thing. America *as a whole* and *considering its unique geography and demographic challenges* has created an unmatched and dynamic society that is the most technologically advanced, economically powerful, and politically responsive in the world. Many other countries can match or pass us in individual categories, especially those with monocultures. I really, really wish that many Europeans would be happy with their own successes and strengths and not need to demean America to make themselves feel superior, it gets old, quick. Yes many American yahoos get their jollies by baiting internationals, but please don't make it so easy on them.

Re:A few reasons...

[Pig Hogger]

1- Minitel is actually a long-term drag on France. As another poster in this thread noted the backward condition of the telephone network worked to France's advantage when it did upgrade during the "digital age". Conversely Minitel is a drag on adoption of the internet and use of the French language on it.

A technical drag, yes (it uses 20 year-old technology. Just try displaying a GIF file on a Minitel!!!). But certainly not a social drag. Quite the opposite, in fact. The french have got a 20 year headstart with the notion of John Q. Public interacting with a computer network to get information or to make transactions.

2- There seems to be a consistent thread of anti-religious bias coming from French posts. It appears there is an active antagonism being taught by the French school system equating religion to ignorance. I would urge those who have been indoctrinated in this way to throw their own blinders off. Religious belief is not necessarily an impediment to rational thought, education, or enlightenment. The comment that "Republican ideals naturally spurns religion as something which enslaves humanity" smacks more of a Communist tract or the Reign of Terror than anything truly Republican.

The first thing that religion does is brainwash it's proponents into believing that they are free because of religion. It is no use then to demonstrate to religious bigots that they aren't free because of the religion because they have been brainwashed into believing otherwise.
Religion feeds on the morally weak; somebody who is well educated in the ways of the world is far less likely to fall prey to the priests than somebody who has no education at all.
Finally, all religion does is maintain a caste of useless individuals who live off what they can sucker from their parishioners. Worse, those suckerers attain quite an unwarranted position of influence upon the citizens, and are therefore a dangerous impediment to the true, free exercice of Democracy.

3- The American university system rewards individual achivement as much as any in the world. Scholarships are available from every institution and the cream of the crop are recruited heavily to the top schools- which aren't generally state sponsored schools by the way. If you're good enough you'll not pay a dime and likely have a stipend as well. Yes, being a capitalistic society a space is made for big donors- but those big donors make available thousands of scholarships available to the best and the brightest.

Those scholarships are only attainable through a level of work that is quite unattainable by many of those people who would seamlessly go through the french State-financed system, or those who have rich daddies for that matter. And there is the matter of the public school system which is unable to provide the motivation needed of brighter students to seek further education.
By contrast, in France, schoolkids are sensitivized quite early into the possibility in pursuing higher education.

4- Considering the constraints placed upon us by our relatively light population density, I would say that America gets more bang for the taxpayer dollar for government services than any country excepting Australia (which is largely funded by taxing its natural resources). Our infrastructure is highly dependend upon the policies of the local state and municipalities. Many American cities have services that can favorably compare with any European city.

Given the fact that the americans do not get State-paid medical services, and that their system costs the same per capita as the canadian socialist medical system, yet only insures 40% of the population, this statement above must be the biggest joke since Groucho Marx said to a woman who had nine children adter she said that she loves her husband very-much " Lady, I love my cigar, but I take it out of my mouth once in a while!!! "...

Many non-americans are as myopic about us as we are about them. Those of us from either group who have lived in both America and internationally tend to have a balanced view of the whole thing. America *as a whole* and *considering its unique geography and demographic challenges* has created an unmatched and dynamic society that is the most technologically advanced, economically powerful, and politically responsive in the world. Many other countries can match or pass us in individual categories, especially those with monocultures. I really, really wish that many Europeans would be happy with their own successes and strengths and not need to demean America to make themselves feel superior, it gets old, quick. Yes many American yahoos get their jollies by baiting internationals, but please don't make it so easy on them.

Many americans are quite myopic about themselves. America *as a whole* has created quite a lopsided society where many people are left behind and have to resort to crime just to survive, thanks to the absence of social services that provide public security to the whole population of other countries. As of political responsiveness, catering to big croporation whims by implementing totally assinine foreign policies (by propping dictators, for example) is not really a good way of being "politically responsive". Rather more like "politically reactive".

Re:A few reasons...

[Gendou]

The first thing that religion does is brainwash it's proponents into believing that they are free because of religion.

Does it also brainwash them into learning how to spell properly?

Tennessee (no, really)

[mcj]

We've got some nice services online here in Tennessee here.

Good stuff such as renewing drivers licenses, pay property taxes, restaurant inspection scores, filing complaints, etc etc. They seem to be adding more all the time.

whitehouse.gov an early site

[peter303]

The US government led the world in getting on the InterNet. One of Gore's jobs (skip the "he invented the internet" b.s.) was to see that all agencies had an internet presence. And they did. The US is larger seller of goods on the Net mainly through its surplus and bonds sites.

But as web sites must re-invent themselves every other year to stay on the tech forefront, the US effort may have stalled, allowing late-comers like France.gov to take the lead.

U.S Forces in Afghanistan(OT)

[Shoden]

Is there american troops in Afganistan ? From what I know, there's only planes ...

From CNN: Special Forces in Afghanistan
From ArmyTimes.com: More special ops troops enter Afghanistan
From BBC: Allied Forces in Afghanistan

If you don't know, please refrain from posting and use Google...

I can do these things and I live in the USA

[Chang]

In the past year, I:

1. Filed my federal, state, and local taxes
2. Registered my car
3. Paid the bill for my water and trash (city provides these services)
4. Complained about a fallen tree over in the park next to my house.
5. Checked my property tax account balance.
6. My wife applied for college and registered for classes.

I did all of this online. Never spoke to anyone on the telephone or visited an office. I live in Ohio.

I think most people don't realize how much of this stuff is already there or else they are waiting for it to become "free."

The fact is that a national government portal would be helpful only for things that the national government does. I already have a city portal and a state portal and they are quite useful. The private sector fills in the gaps nicely (bill payment)

Re:Off-Topic - UK Government portal

[pubjames]

The government controls the TV station

Actually, the charter of the BBC is such that it is independant of the government - the government cannot influence its output. It is more of a publicly owned body than a state controlled service.

People in the UK (mostly) love the BBC, even those on the right politically. (They complain about it, but then they complian about everying). Even Thatcher was afraid to privatize it because she knew there would be outrage.

Not *exactly*

[autopr0n]

While we have a larger government, that's not the main problem.

The problem is the fact that there are 50 separate governments, each handling those matters individually, and probably with different systems.

While some information would be/could be/is available federally (like tax stuff, from irs.gov), almost everything else and a whole lot more is handled by the *state* government

School, state taxes, car stuff, police info, etc. Most dealings you have with the "government" here are actually dealings with the state government.

What makes our government so huge is mostly things like welfare and social security and the other hand-out programs. And while those could be put on line, I doubt that would help many slash dotters.

Re:Not *exactly*

[Tassach]

Somebody mod the parent up as insightful. The poster hits the nail right on the head. About the only routine interactions the average American citizen has with the federal government is filing his tax return (which is pretty well automated now) or getting a passport, unless he is working in a federally-regulated profession.

Because each state basically takes care of itself, any attempt to automate basic services would result in MASSIVE duplication of effort. State laws (and governments) are different enough that even an off-the-shelf product for somthing simple (like driver's license and vehicle registration renewal) would require fairly extensive modifications to work in multiple jurisdictions, especially when you consider the need to interface with legacy systems. It gets even more complicated when you look at things like business licenses and public assistance, which are managed at the county/local level.

Because Voters Don't Care

[vtechpilot]

I know its too late for anyone to read this but I guess I'll point it out. While all of your say size and complexity of the US government is the issue, I must disagree.

The Fact is that the majority of voters in the US don't care about the government being online. Congress doesn't push for online government because %90 of the voters don't care. Corporations on the other hand with their lobbyists, have pushed the IRS online. If you paid taxes like the corporations do, you would want it to be as efficient as possible so you wouldn't have to pay as many accountants.

Again its not size or complexity, its an issue of who wants it to be done. Remember American Slashdotters, you are a minority if you do everything online. Just because you do it online doesn't mean the rest of America does.

Re:Because Voters Don't Care

[Transwarp Conduit]

While I'm not so sure it was corporate lobbyists who "pushed" the IRS to go on-line, much of the rest of your comment is right on target.

Slashdotters, please try to step outside your computer rooms for a moment and look at the real, everyday world outside the insular environs of silicon valley and the like? The simple fact is that most of the people in the U.S. are not on-line, a large percentage of households in the U.S. do not even own a computer yet... and many of those non-connected people don't want a computer, don't want to be online, and couldn't give a tinker's damn less whether or not the U.S. government (or the state, county, or city governments) offer "e-government" portals. Heck, even I don't particularly care about it, and as someone who was designing and building hardware when a lot of youl were still learning to tie your shoes, I think my "geek credentials" are pretty unassailable... Tell me, what's so bloody convenient about booting the PC, logging into the internet, getting to the state DMV site, filling out a webpage form, paying by credit card, then waiting 3 weeks for my vehicle-registration sticker to be mailed to me, when I can just stop by the customer-service desk at my local grocery store the next time I go shopping and renew my vehicle reg in 5 minutes?

Not to mention that, as a rabid libertarian, I want as little to do with the government as possible, and vice versa. :) Frankly, I don't want the government to be online, or to be efficient; the less information they have, the more difficult it is for them to pool and cross-index it, and the less efficiently they're able to make use of it, the better off we all are.

Re:Because Voters Don't Care

[Transwarp Conduit]

Where do I live? Why, the great state of Texas, that hopelessly-backward land of ignorant rednecks all you fancy-pants California and New York boys love to sneer at, of course. :P

I get my renewal notice in the mail from TXDOT about a month ahead of the due date. I can either mail it in, take it down to the county office... or just walk into my local HEB grocery store, go up to the customer-service counter, write a check, show my proof of insurance, and walk out with a new window sticker. And yes, it takes all of five minutes. Heck, I can even get new license plates there (which you have to do every few years, since the reflective coatings wear out pretty regularly under the Texas sun!), which takes another minute or so.

Gee, maybe we ain't all such ig'nernt, uncivilized hicks down here after all, huh?

As for your other comments:

A time when 100% pure democracy will be in effect. (as opposed to a democratic republic). Our senators will no longer be the ones voting on and creating/modifying laws, the public will.

Ahhh, idealism from wet-behind-the-ears young 'uns armed with Civics 101 is just so cute to watch... Son, "100% pure democracy" is also called "mob rule", and the "tyranny of the majority." It's three wolves and two sheep voting on what's for dinner tonight; it's five men and two women on a desert island voting on whether the men get to rape the women. Before you champion the virtues of "100% pure democracy" and laws created/modified by the public, you might want to consider that:

Under "100% democracy", the southern states woould have remained free to oppress blacks and other minorities under Jim Crow laws.

Under "100% democracy", the majority-heterosexual voting populace could pass laws excluding the minority-homosexual population from just about everything.

Under "100% democracy", in the wake of 9-11 every person of even vaguely arabic descent or appearance would be getting incarcerated or deported.

Under "100% democracy", the (nominally) Christian majority could ban books and movies, or the teaching of evolution, with impunity.

Shall I go on? "Pure" democracy sounds like a wonderful ideal, but in practice it is just as flawed as "pure" Socialism, for essentially the same reasons - both can only work when practiced by rational, logical beings who make their decisions solely on the basis of available facts and not through emotions or irrational desires. Now, unless I woke up on the planet Vulcan this morning...

Personal experience

[scott1853]

The DMV in NY is about 1.5 years behind in paper work. I had just got notified in August 2001, of a lapse in my insurance that happened in Dec. 99.

It would be really nice if you could do DMV stuff online but I don't see how they're going to get it done at this pace.

Heh

[autopr0n]

But volkswagons are pretty nice these days, esp the ones they sell in the US.

Re:French government online

[joestar]

There is a website for all people like you here who hate Frenches, it's called http://www.fuckfrance.com, it's your home baby. But please let me say it once, because really I can't resist anymore when reading all those comments like yours: US Citizen, you sux hard. Vive Concorde, vive Airbus, vive Ariane, vive St Emillion, vive la qualité de la vie.

Re:we have gov't by the corporations, not people

[HCase]

Yes I do know that there are many. No, I don't think there is any way in which they could all be invited to participate in debates. I wasn't addressing this problem in my previous reply. I was addressing the problem that there are no "government changers" that are parts of the major debates. Is there a solution? Probably. Do I necessarily know what it is? Somewhat less likely. The best I could say now would be to decrease the percentage somewhat. While it doesn't seem the 5%(?) is all that high, it is apparently high enough to keep everyone out. Would there be any problems with lowering it enough so that one or two of the non R/D candidates could get into the debates without letting everyone in? Most of the candiates don't even get close to 1% so it seems to me that there should be a slightly happier area somewhere inbetween 2 guys and everyone that wants to show up. I might be wrong though. Any opinions?

wait a sec ...

[mystik]

I thought the general trend in the US Government was to take away information...

We woulden't want those pesky terrorists reading our laws now ...

Hahaha

[autopr0n]

Only by killing many of it's own people, did the US manage to place a man on the moon and finish the space race

Ok, 3 people died in a tragic accident, but that was on the ground, not in space per se. Those were the only people to die before we had people on the moon.

Also, the EU isn't doing this, france is doing this. Several states (which are responsible for this kind of thing) have had e-govs for quite a while.

Re:France is Quasi-Socialist

[HoldmyCauls]

Je comprends, mon ami. My French teacher in HS, as well as my Global Studies teachers, commented a lot on France's view of government, but little of their fear of corporations. I, for one, share that fear. I don't think it's too much to say that we're headed for some kind of a revolution soon ourselves, if things progress the way they have been for the last century. Corporations have no respect for anybody. That's a generalization, but none are generous except when they can afford to be. That is *not* a generalization, but a fact.

One thing you said that intrigued me was this:

But, in the French vision of how things are, a private corporation is made by people who don't give a fuck about other people, wildlife, public health, employment rate, or anything; except the money they earn.

Because earning money is the definition and meaning of life of a private corporation, not ethics, civil rights, or any other things like that.

I've seen plenty of beautiful pictures of France, and as I understand it, it's pretty clean. I've yet to see an image of a plastic bag or a food wrapper floating by a boulangerie. ; )

However, I've never been there; I've never smelled the air, seen the sky, drank from or swam in the rivers. Just out my door is a really messed-up sight. A polluted river, a run-down bar, and not a stretch of road without three or four hubcaps, or tires, or CDRs. Of course, my REAL home is a small town set between two leafy emerald hills, with a horizon softly curved like a naked female body (like I know!). So, my question is this: how have your restrictions against corporations helped to keep your environment clean? And, remember, a picture is worth 128k words, so feel free to put more of those pretty images past my eyes!

EU report on "connected" governments

[con]

Here is a stort in Irelands Sunday Buisness post which purports to be a reflection of an official EU report on "connected" governments in the EU / EFTA area.

The top 10 are :
1. Ireland
2. Norway
3. Finland
4. Sweden
5. Denmark
6. Spain
7. Britain
8. Portugal
9. France
10. Austria

Re:Firstgov

[operagost]

Someone mod this up! LOL!
+1 Informative, +3 Encourages reader to examine boogers

lets look at recent history

[glwtta]

the US government can't successfully hold a census ("you you mean you didn't want those forms sent to the wrong addresses") or an election ("oh, you mean you didn't want to vote for Nader?") - what are the chances of a project this massive getting pulled off?

Besides, Dubya has his priorities straight, the money would of course be better spent on like, you know, a couple of tanks or something.

Re:we have gov't by the corporations, not people

[mark_lybarger]

i'm not so sure that inviting more people to debates will solve the core issue, although it's certainly a head in the right direction. those in power will stay in power as long as they're being fed lots of money. money buys ad time, people to run a campaign, etc. those who don't have the massive financial backing just can't get their message out as the other candidates can. hell, even incumbant candidates have an inheriant advantage since they're being naturally followed by the media. i really think we should limit the amount of campaign $$ each candidate can have. force the candidates to go door to door to get their message out. force them to meet in "town halls" many times to invite the public to hear their debates. let's get some _real_ politicians that will work for the voters, and not those groups paying 2500$ per plate for a nice dinner with the person.

It's call a federal system...

[geistbear]

France doesn't have the difference between State and Federal systems, like US and actually Germany. They said in above...'will give every citizen a personal internet portal allowing them to pay taxes online,
That's federal(or state or local), it's alittle annoying, but we can do it here(at least federal and some states).

register a child for a state school,
School Boards are run locally, so each has their own, not all that surprising considering the schools are at variable levels of technology

or be reminded that their regulatory car inspection is due in a month's time'
This is usually done on a state level.

So they cite three different activities and we as a nation handle them on three different governmental structure, we don't have the over arching Federal Govt that gets into local matters.(well within reason) So it's not surprising we don't have the same level here, even with greater population, we split the power up between the government levels.

State e-gov't already exists

[SnakeEyes8311]

I can pay my personal property taxes, renew my drivers license, and pay my state income taxes all online. In fact, they encourage residents to do it online by charging less. Good enough for me.

You can also pay your federal income taxes online and that's really the only time US citizens deal with the federal gov't (at least that's all I've ever done with the federal gov't). Maybe you need to open your eyes and ears a bit before asking why the US gov't isn't "online."

You want to know why not the US?

[Guppy06]

The Tenth Amendment:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Some of the things mentioned that this French government site can do are either things shared between the state and the feds, or just aren't mentioned in the Constitution and rest solely with the state. For example:

"pay taxes online"

If I recall correctly, you can pretty much do that already with your federal income taxes already through the IRS website, but it isn't the job of the IRS to collect state income taxes, or any other taxes levied by the state. Talk to your comptroller, or at the very least go to the website of your state government. For me, I'd have to find the Louisiana website for information on paying Louisiana income and property taxes.

"register a child for a state school"

Beyond those offered by the military for their dependants and the five federal academies, I don't think there is such a thing as a federal school. Elementary and high schools are usually the responsibility of the local government (county or city), while they only have to answer to state guidelines and standards. If you want to register your kid to attend local schools, talk to the local school board. They're at your county seat, not at Washington D.C.

"reminded that their regulatory car inspection is due in a month's time"

For commercial vehicles, while there are federal rules and regulations for your vehicle, it is up to the state to enforce them. As for personal vehicles, my title, registration and license plate are from the State of Louisiana, and the brake tag I got from St. Charles Parish. Frankly, I wouldn't want to have to deal with a city almost a thousand miles away for something as simple as my car. And if neither of those two governments provide what you're looking for, the only think you might be justified in complaining to the US Congress about is that they haven't set aside any money for state and local governments to set up such services.

So why can't we interact with the US federal government in the same way? At least 90% of the interactions your average citizen has with the federal government are with either the IRS or the USPS. Both of these organizations have very well-done, informative and useful websites. For anything else I suggest you check with your state website and/or see if your local government maintains a website.

Re:You want to know why not the US?

[Dun Malg]

your right except the USPS isn't run by the federal goverment... it is actually a private company.


Nonsense! Can you buy stock in the USPS? Does the USPS have a "CEO"? Hmmm? I don't THINK so! The Postal Service is a federal agency that was created by vote of the Continental Congress in 1775 under the direction of Benjamin Franklin, the first Postmaster General. Article IX of The Articles of Confederation codified the Postal Service as the only official mail delivery service in 1781. The USPS was officially codified as a part of our CURRENT federal government in 1789, and permanently made an executive department by Andrew Jackson. The USPS never has been a "private company". You're mis-interpretting the "self-funded" status of the USPS to mean that it's not part of the federal government. In reality, self-funded only means that they aren't subsidized by the general fund. If they need more money, they need to raise the price of delivery.

Next time, do a little simple research and you won't sound like such a fool.

Re:we have gov't by the corporations, not people

[alen]

And there are just as much lobbyists for the AARP, AAA, the unions, NOW, Right to Life, Greenpeace and other "populist" causes as there are for corporations.

If you're a business owner you would probably have an interest in legislation that's friendly to your interests. And since over 60% of Americans own stock in US companies what happens to corporate America is in their interest.

Tax

[tubs]

I did read when the tax forms came online they didn't work properly - you could fill everything in online and submit it.

But at the other end it was printed out and added to all the manual tax returns to be inputed by some data entry clerk.

One word - *doh*

I think it has been fixed now (just to be slashdotty I believe the system was developed by ... no I won't say it but GUESSWHO)

Re:France is Quasi-Socialist

[tubs]

"Because earning money is the definition and meaning of life of a private corporation..."

How true, all a company cares about is its shareholders. If it can get away with something, it generally will. (what was the name of that Ford car with the fuel tank at the back that kept exploding? The decided it would be cheaper to take the litigation costs than fix it, so they didn't)

The only glaring example I can see the reverse of is Volvo. Did you know they developed and patented the 3 point seat belt, then gave everyone royalty free rights to use it. I wonder if they would do the same now they are owned by ford?

'Cause we're way ahead of 'em

[DaoudaW]

First, I can pay taxes online and register a child for a state school. I don't need to be reminded that their regulatory car inspection is due in a month's time since we don't do that here, but I can pay my car's taxes online.

According to the article, only about 20% of households have internet access. We're at, what?, about 60%. They need to place terminals in town halls. We already have them in virtually every public library.

We don't need to have a big government-pushed internet infrastructure because we already have a big internet infrastructure.

While I'm ranting, its all about the cost of local telephone calls. There are no free calls in Britain or France, so everyone pays by the minute for internet access. In the so-called free internet schemes that they do have, the calls are paid for by advertising.

There are alot of things I don't like here, but the USA has the best internet system in the world!

Re:we have gov't by the corporations, not people

[ballpeen]

60% own stock in US corps? Really? That's, like, one share of MS each? 'Cause 65% of Americans will retire with NO MONEY IN THE BANK. 1% of Americans have more wealth than 90% of the rest, and the next 9% ALSO have as much wealth as the 90% rest. Which is, um, 10% of Americans have twice the wealth of the other 90%. So how much stock does that 60% have!

In the Silly Happy Days, wasn't Bill Gates' personal worth at one point equal to that of HALF THE US POPULATION?

I think yes!

Re:we have gov't by the corporations, not people

[alen]

Well what do you think IRA's, 401K's, union pension funds, insurance policies and other investments are? Directly or indirectly through some kind of investment fund more than 60% of all americans own stock. And socialism isn't very different. Only difference is that the government workers make more than private sector and are well off. And name one country where a small minority doesn't control most of that nation's wealth?

The US is working on this

[metis]

I am involved now in a project that I think responds directly to the issue raised by the post.

The project is to create a portal to every company that contributed to financing the campaign of a representative.

The portal will centralize all information needed to ascertain that paid representatives are performing their fiduciary duties to the people who invested hard earned money in their campaigns.

The portal will have forms for donation as well as RFLs ( Request for Legislation ). And we are now devising a method to integrate issues of tax relief and lifting regulation. One idea is to have a law that correlates the amount of tax to the ammount of regulation. But this is all still on the drawing board.

The project is financed from a special tax deduction "for streamlining the interaction between business and government".

Re:The US is working on this

[Seanasy]

This is a joke, right? Right?!!! ...

Re:we have gov't by the corporations, not people

[ballpeen]

I'm just arguing, sincerely but senselessly, while watching all my submissioins get rejected for a while. Then I'll go away, probably.

But for now, I think that was a rhetorical question. It's just another pitiful part of the giant snare. Most of those 60% aren't exactly gonna be able to retire on there deferred earnings or whatever. But they feel they have a stake in the megacorps... Interesting!

State of ME online

[cr@ckwhore]

State government are getting into online services... in Maine, our "e-government" services go by the name "InforME", which is obviously a play on the word "inform" and the state initials. Sometimes, I wonder if they really meant "in for me".

The state has all kinds of cool services...usefull stuff, like being able to re-register my car online, and access to common forms.

What amazes me most about the whole idea of "e-government", is that somehow it gets done. State governments are bloated with red-tape, yet somehow they've managed to get an online system.

I don't expect the same from the federal goverment because they're too bloated to get out their own way. I'm amazed that the government doesn't colapse under its own weight. Perhaps this is one of the great wonders of the world.

We have it.

[gomadtroll]

http://www.centerdigitalgov.com/
http://www.state.ak.us/

Re:we have gov't by the corporations, not people

[SlamMan]

Its that 65% own fault if tthey reture with no money int hhe bank. First, if you have no money, why are you retiring? You have aajob to GET MONEY. Second, if you're not saving any, why not? Try spending les, don't buy so much stuff you don't nee,d spent less on Christmas, don't buy a new car every 3 years, don't buy the house with the 2 extra guest rooms. Living within your means includes saving.

Hey, good English there.

[El Camino SS]

Don't apologize... your English is much better than some of the native English speakers that I deal with daily.

Good work.

-Alex

Whooo there...

[MosesJones]

I know exactly why the US system is like it is, and that is exactly the reason that this sort of thing is a problem, this isn't indicative of what is "good" or "bad" but of why somethings can be done in some places but not in others. The US for instance was a natural place for something like the internet as there is more of a culture of autonomous nodes.

Goverments where people were oppressed by distributed goverment : US during slavery, Italy, Germany etc etc etc. Its always possible no matter what the system as long as you convince the majority across the whole country.

The quote is from a US book "To kill a Mockingbird" the US was last successfully invaded IIRC in 1812. The UK in 1066, Iceland god knows when and Spain for about the same period as the US IIRC. The ability of an individual with a gun to stop an army isn't very great. Looks like most of Afghanistan had guns... didn't matter much as they were politically divided.

Social factors are the main governing factor in the success of most projects and operations. The hardware is for large parts of it irrelevant.

Re:Whooo there...

[LafinJack]

Did you read a thing he said in either of his posts? Because it looks to me that you and his other braindead critic somehow picked up that he was a) criticising America, and b) had an email address and home page in the UK. Does that make his analysis any less true, because he probably isn't within the borders of the US? If anything, it gives him a better ability to look at our system of government with a somewhat unbiased eye, without being dragged down by freeper wannabes like you. Strip away his being British and your confrontational attitude and read his posts again. Maybe you'll learn something, and we can make our country, and the world, a bit better place to live.

Re:Whooo there...

[pete-classic]

That last statement is pretty ironic being made by an (apparently) Englishmen to an American. I seem to recall something in history about a cherubic cigar-smoking fellow from your islands begging us for . . . gasp . . . hardware. Not that I begrudge our involvement, it was the right thing to do, but I hope the irony isn't lost on you.

And it seems that, but for us, you would have been invaded when Hitler was done bombing the dog-shit out of you. And, of course, most of the countries (again, except for Switzerland) surrounding Germany were invaded.

You seem to have named several aggressors in your litany of folks who haven't been invaded. Okay, so the Spanish haven't been invaded since, who, the Ottomans? But they have managed to wipe out a few cultures since then. The short list for the UK is what? Big hunks of Africa, India, assorted islands, and I would assign partial culpability for North America. (You can share with Jackson, right?) Hardly a who's who of being oppressed.

This may be an artifact of being educated in the UK (again, I am assuming), but you seem to forget that we considered England to be an oppressor in the late 1770's. You may want to minimize that, but our people (who I lovingly refer to as "my forefathers") were willing to fight an die to throw of the rule of the crown.

Let me take a step back. I don't have anything against Europeans in general or the British in particular. I've been to Europe (cleaning up one of you all's messes, and again, an armed minority beating the crap out of an unarmed majority) and I generally like the joint. And, hey, my heritage goes back to Europe.

Slavery was illegal in 50% of the US circa 1800, how about England? Oh, wait, who was in charge of the (future) US when slavery was established here? Seems like that was a problem that we inherited, not one that we created.

I think you miss the point that the national government didn't sponsor slavery but to an active effort to avoid the issue (which, as I said, was dumped on them, not created by them) until finally abolishing it, so your example is spurious.

Finally, on the matter of Afghanistan, I don't think that the "common man" is armed over there. After, what, three years of Taliban rule I think most of the guns are "off the streets." OTOH, they have large, highly factionalized militias, but that really isn't the same.

-Peter

Re:Whooo there...

[pete-classic]

That is a real interesting post.

Did you have any actual rational arguments to add to that, or was your intention just to make an ad hominem attack or two and do a bit of whining about people being unfair?

BTW, it is abundantly clear from history that centralized governments are a recipe for loss of civil liberties. That's where the hostility is coming from. With a small amount of knowledge about history it is hard not to read MosesJones' original post as "Be like us, trade your liberty for some cool gadgets!" Surely he didn't mean it that way, but I find that more upsetting, not less.

Notice that I haven't called you names (like braindead, or "freeper wannabe" (BTW, WTF is a "freeper" and what gives you the impression that I want to be one?)) anywhere in this post. Neither Kymermosst nor I called have called MosesJones names either. Perhaps you should re-evaluate who is coping a "confrontational attitude."

-Peter

Re:Whooo there...

[MosesJones]

STFU = Shut the Fuck Up. Kind of confrontational. isn't it ?

It is not abundantly clear from history that centralised goverment = loss of civil liberties. Germany has always had a distributed system of goverment. The UK has always had a centralised system. The Soviet Union had central and regional goverment in a similar way to the US.

One system of goverment is not always better than another by definition, it is the reaction of people within that system that determines the worth of it. Pure Communism by the book has more liberties than pure capitalism. Odds on Pure Communism happening with humans... zero. If you had studied history of various different countries and political systems then this would be apparent.

By the way "do a bit of whining" is also being agressive.

Re:Whooo there...

[pete-classic]

What planet's history are you talking about?

WWI: Germany was under the rule of Kaiser (i.e. Emperor) Wilhelm II.

WWII: After the Reichstag burned and the German parliament handed total control to the executive Hitler became the equivalent of a military dictator. (See: War powers clause)

And don't tell me people are free in Germany. They can't own guns (unless they pay an elitism fee and keep them at a hunting club). They are conformant to "the rules" beyond common sense. I've been there. I went out with an (American) friend and his German girlfriend. We came to a crosswalk late at night. There was NO traffic (and we could see quite a way in each direction). It was PERFECTLY safe to cross, far safer than when it is busy but the light is with you. We litterally couldn't drag her across the street, then the light changed and everything was fine. I guess that's how it is living in a country where beat cops carry machine guns and have a license to beat people with impunity.

Don't get me wrong, I am aware that this is the direction that the US is headed in, but I'm not happy about it.

I have to beg to differ on the USSR point as well. AFAIK they had regional commissioners, meaning men commissioned to handle a region. That is, the power flowed in the opposite direction in the USSR vs. the USA.

Anyway, I guess it is hard to have a rational world view when you are a subject.

I'm with you 100% that Communism is the ideal system on paper, but works like crap in reality. But that doesn't support your point. Maybe systems work differently for different people (the Finns, for example, seem to be doing very well with socialism.) but I'm not concerned with that, I'm concerned with how absolute rulers behave, not their subjects.

I'll concede the point on STFU though, although I think you should now more than ever. OTOH, it's not my fault that he chose to attack me and whine rather than actually present any rational arguments.

-Peter

Re:France is Quasi-Socialist

[Pig Hogger]

Les amerloks sont les descendants directs des rosbifs, ze quouenne en moins.
Les rosbifs ont évolué sur une petite île très pauvre, sous une monarchie importée (pour la plupart) de France (bref, l'Angleterre est une colonie française qui a mal tourné)

(But I'm going to redo that in english, so more people can understand it)

So,
The americans are the direct offspring of the english, minus the queen.

The english have evolved on a small, poor island, under a monarchy (mostly) imported from France (in brief, England is a french colony that turned bad)... Very soon, when their natural ressources were depleted, they were forced to seek fortune overseas, hence the strong maritime and merchant traditions.

Starting with the Magna Carta of 1215 (where corrupt barons took advantage of a weak king), people gradually got the notion that they were more important than the state.

With the Industrial revolution, the rise of the power of the bourgeois, coupled with the notion that they, somehow, were "better" than the State yielded the then omnipresent sentiment that the State is bad and should be suspected.

It, however, did not apply to the bourgeois, hence the quasi-revered status of rich people, and the lack of suspicion given to overly powerful companies.

Since the fall of Communism, bourgeois arrogance (embodying their belief of their own superiority - after all, they "won" the cold war) has risen significantly, to the point of subverting national governments and suckering them into abdicating their sovereignty to unelected and unaccountable "international" bodies that solely sucker to big croporations.

St. Paul Police ....

[disc-chord]

I dunno what everyone is expecting here... but there has been alot of on-line government resources for a long time now.

Consider: St. Paul.gov where you can view this week's prostitution arrests in the city of St. Paul.

What more do you REALLY want from your government than a good laugh?

Do you not own a watch? Here's the Time? Obviously your government is looking after you, considering your every possible need.

As far as I'm concerned these guys need to waste less money on this crap when there are former-tax-payers starving in the streets right now.

I don't want government to be easy to use...

[bbaskin]

I don't really want people to perceive the government as "easy to use". I'd rather have people see it as it is, a burden. Similarly, I'd rather have income taxes not withheld from each paycheck so that people have to pay the IRS each month and realize where their 20,000 dollars a year goes. Then, perhaps, people will want to reduce their tax burden and save us from an ever expansive state.

How expensive/inexpensive?

[Kymermosst]

Thinking about my pocketbook, would it raise or lower my taxes? This assumes, of course, that they adjusted tax rates to reflect the need for more or less funding for such a system? (I paid almost 50% of my income in taxes last year. Oh, and I only made 10,000. And people think the government gives businesses tax breaks.)

If you moved certain government services online, would it increase or decrease the government's budget requirements, assuming they didn't shift funding from anywhere besides the services that were moving to online-mostly?

I can tell you right now, if it makes bigger government, I'm not interested. Period.

Could that title be any more baiting?

[roystgnr]

I suppose it could, but you'd probably run into length limitations:

"French Government Online - Why Isn't the U.S.? Is It Because They Suck? It's Because They Suck, Right?"

Wow. That was an arrogant assumption.

[El Camino SS]

The fact of the matter is that Europeans always seem to get on these boards and bash Americans... constantly speaking of the ways that Americans think themselves superior. Wow. According to many American bashers, it appears to me that you think of us as the biggest bastards on the earth. What a sad statement.

You have to be pretty arrogant to assume that you understand what others think automatically.

I have a better answer to all of this... it would be best to ASK THEM WHAT THEY THINK.

You might be surprised that all Americans don't think ill at all of others or behave superior (after all this is America), and some actually respect and admire some European practices.

My only opinion about Europeans is that when reading text in their non-native languages is that they can't properly relate humor, which admittedly is a problem in all text. So let me say this:

Americans tease. They poke fun. The Brits get it because they are culturally close to us. Poking fun at (and especially humbling) are our ways. From the outside it no doubt looks like direct insult. I don't think that I have ever laughed at other cultures jokes. Its hard to get what they mean. It is even harder to grasp a foreigners sense of humor. Anglos, like Native Americans, tease mercilessly. Its just bound to piss you off if you realize that they are smiling behind that.

So if you're French... keep Jerry Lewis. :).
And if you're German... keep the tiny pistol away from me.

And for God's sake, keep smiling, this thread started by taking about the internet and government work.

Because you don't want it:

[t_allardyce]

I thought Microsoft powered our (uk) govenrment portal (i've never used it, and using opera i probably never will) if they are, then the US is better off without, otherwise, after fighting to give women the vote, we will also have to fight to give opera and lynx the vote LOL. Anyway, the only reason we have it is 'cause Blairs all for that new-fangled witchery stuff, and the only reason the french get it, is because the english have it :)

some states (including Washington) do it

[Preposterous Coward]

In Washington state, you can conduct a surprising amount of government business online. When I needed to apply for a business license, I went to the Web expecting to look up the address of an office where I'd go stand in line all day. Instead I found an online application -- answer a few pages' worth of questions, provide a credit card number, and bingo, they give you your business license number on the spot (and the actual paper license was in my mailbox three days later).

Similar experience when I had to renew my car registration: I went to a state Web site, typed in my VIN, and it said hey, you need a smog check before we can renew your registration. I got one, drove back home, went back to the Web site, and it already knew I had passed not 15 minutes ago. Typed in my credit card number and the new tags were in my mailbox within a week.

Also, you have been able to pay U.S. income taxes electronically for years now. I'm not sure quite what's new about this French thing, except that perhaps it's broader and being done on a bigger scale than in the U.S., whose federal structure is supposed to mean more things get done at a state level.

good govt websites

[bluebomber]

• The House of Representatives
  
• Thomas at the Library of Congress
  
• The US Postal Service
  
• The Securities and Exchange Commission
  
• The Federal Trade Commission
  
• (FWIW: i.e. not much) The Internal Revenue Service This is one of the poorer examples, but at least you can download forms in PDF.
  
• The White House
  
• The US Dept of Justice Not as useful as the others...
  

Part of the problem is that the US (Federal) Government does not have an all-inclusive internet plan. Not all of the websites look or work the same. They are not laid out the same. They do not all use the same hardware or software. Neither should they be: the SEC has *far* different operating requirements than the CIA, NSA or FBI. Also, as has been mentioned, most of the 'US government' (i.e. all governments, not just federal) is NOT the Federal government, but state and local governments.

The French are NOT more online.

[_flan]

The French are not more online. My girlfriend just went through hell trying to pay her French taxes "online" and the French government did a fine job of "losing" her payment, forcing her to send a paper payment later causing them to label her account as "delinquent".

As a matter of fact, we spent the first part of this year trying to get the right tax forms from the French government. We looked online and they only had forms that were two years old online. The site hadn't been updated since 1999. That doesn't seem more online to me. (Hell, they're barely offline, either -- the local office didn't have the damn forms either.)

In the US, we can go online and get all sorts of information -- including the proper tax forms for the year. Sure, it's not all nicely packaged in one happy Big Brother box, but it's there. Heck, even the INS has its forms online.

So, don't go touting the French thing as some amazing online revolution, because it's sure not to live up to all the promises.

simple explanation....

[jeffy124]

1) US has branded online gamblers as terrorists
2) All dealings with the IRS are a huge gamble

Hence, paying your taxes online would be considered gambling, and we all know how the US doesnt like to contradict itself.

The U.S. doesn't believe in government

[nikko]

People are missing the fact that attitudes towards government are fundamentally different between the U.S. and Europe (much of the rest o the world for that matter). Bottom line: Other advanced countries in the world believe in public infrastructure (which includes government)-- Americans don't. That means for us in the U.S.:

- we will never have a working passenger rail system (don't talk to me about amtrak)
- Park benches will be designed for maximum discomfort, in order to deter people from sitting on them.
- our streets will always be littered by trash, since no one believes in the public commons.
- our schools will be worthy of the third world (and in some cases they will have to stretch even to achieve that)
- Government will strive to do as little as possible. That means no well functioning web sites. If the U.S. builds a site similar to the one mentioned, it will be designed for failure from the get go. That's because it will be contracted to several different private companies, who will all strive to politically one-up their competitors and all strive to rape the government. Since the government doesn't attract able administrators lack of any intelligent oversight will ensure this happens.

HiCitizen.com

[crombie]

I don't know of anything as extensive as the French or UK site sounds, but our government does offer HiCitizen.com, which makes it easier to find the information you're looking for on government web sites.

Yeah I could file my unemployment

[t0qer]

Online. I hate using pens, I use my PC for everything, especially job hunting. Why isn't my unemployment direct depositable? (It would save me bank fee's from not having direct deposit) It would save me postage mailing off those forms every week, and it would just be copy and paste into the fields about what jobs I have looked for.

most "wired"?

[scrytch]

Well heck, the Vatican is probably one of the most wired states in the world -- they have a website.

There's the problem with percentages...

Actually, the US Govt Does have a portal

[Talisein]

http://www.firstgov.gov actually has quite a bit of info and links.

Study about usage of eGov services in Europe

[MagicFab]

Of interest:
- http://www.institut.qc.ca/veille_ice/novembre01/se m47.html#1

(in french)

This is happening in the USA.

[gaudior]

Many State, City, and local school districts are implementing various online initiatives. There are also some efforts at the Federal level. What we do not have is a sweeping, coordinated program, across all levels of government. This is a Good Thing. It lets smaller, less costly, programs sort out the successful approaches from the unsuccessful ones. The cities and states are prototyping, sharing ideas, learning from each others mistakes.

Gee, this sounds like Open Source Software development process.

Yes, but....

[thatrez]

What will happen when the french government is overturned again like it is every 10 or so years.....

Re:we have gov't by the corporations, not people

[ballpeen]

Hello! Planetary disconnect....

On this particular world, if you don't spend on Christmas, YOU GET SHOT!

Where have ya been, lady.

Re:French government online

[rking]

When DeGualle asked President Johnson to remove US/Nato troops from France after France "QUIT!!" NATO, I loved Johnsons response: "Do you want us to move out our hundred thousand dead, too?" Give up like you did for Hitler and pipe down.

If your government thought they'd somehow "bought" a right to have troops stationed in France by your actions in liberating them from the Germans then I'm not surprised they wanted you out. The whole point of your help was supposedly to leave them a free country. Your president's attempt at emotional blackmail (only going by your quote here, I'm assuming it's true) seems pretty pathetic.

Americans have a sense of humour?!

[Shade, The]

It would be fairly ironic if I got flamed for this :)

Decentralization

[HardCase]

Much as many people would like to say otherwise, the US government is fairly decentralized. The federal government doesn't play a large role in our day-to-day lives, not on the scale as most European governments do.

In the US, most of the real action happens on the city, county and state levels. So the problem becomes one of ability and funding. For example, I live in Boise, Idaho, a reasonably tech-savvy oasis in the Intermountain West, and while I think that the local governments would love to have more of an Internet presence than they do, they also have to deal with the fact that there are other projects to fund.

The Internet is cool and a lot of people use it, but on the local level dollars are hard to come by and most local governments are going to look a lot harder at repairing the roads and fixing the school's roof than they are at enabling online payment of property taxes.

The Internet isn't as ubiquitous as many of us think, and until it is, I don't think that we'll see it used with the sort of universality that the telephone or the Postal Service is used.

But I'm sure it'll happen someday...

-h-

Alright

[seann]

Who wants to be a french citizen raise there hand, then wait for a published expolit on their technology.

Here in Virginia ...

[curt_gilman]

To reply to the question in the post, I would say that, in the U.S., a number of states have similar portals.

In my home state of Virginia, for example, we can access a number of state services online, including almost all DMV services. This has been around for several years. And, like in France, a lot more will be in place by 2005.

If you are really interested in seeing the government online, the Legislative Information System in Virginia will let you track movement of bills between chambers of the General Assembly and in and out of committees and subcommittees, view sponsors and amendments, let you know the outcome of votes after each stage, and tell you whether the Governor approved or vetoed the measure. The data go back to 1994.

How come no mention of Singapore?

[darkspade]

Singapore also had an online government. How come it is not mentioned?

Visit the link below for the services offered to the citizen by Singapore eGovernment.

http://www.ecitizen.gov.sg/

Visit the link below for the plan for Singapore eGovernment.

http://www.egov.gov.sg/

Hrm...

[Keefesis]

There are those of us who take comfort in knowing that our government doesn't have a single place to go for every tidbit of information on its citizens. Sure, we mihgt be only a few steps away from that today, but remeber government isn't a being; it is people. Likewise, trust the people of the government with the nature you would trust the clerk at a hotel front desk. You expect him to do his job, but would you really be surprised if he swiped that $5 you left on the counter?

8 digits phone numbers in Brazil

[mangu]

here it makes sense, there are zones with more than 10 million people.

Brazil is same order of magnitude

[mangu]

The Brazilian population is about half that of the US, which means "same order of magnitude". The amount of bureaucracy is debatable, our income tax is MUCH simpler, but we beat you in several other points.

I have filled my income tax returns on-line in the last four years now. This year I did all the paperwork on renovating my drivers license on-line (www.detran.rj.gov.br, asp and flash, the whole shit!), although I had to go to a flesh-and-bones doctor (randomly chosen by computer) for the examination. We have had nationwide elections using digital ballots since 1998. As a matter of fact, in 1998 I was randomly chosen as an inspector for the presidential elections, so I have a somewhat more deep knowledge than I would like of that system.

Re:Brazil is same order of magnitude

[Banjonardo]

In Brasil, we can use our state-provided "numbers" and voter declarations to see our tax returns and declare inelligibility. Likewise, we can take a stroll around the digital national library and download some famous romance, or poetry, or maybe check out what the president is up to, while looking up federal laws. In fact, the government provides a link to every large ministry we have. To see what other governments around the world have for online tax and immigration services, click here.

Oh, how the world has changed!

End the need for government

[user flynn]

Have instant internet votes on all issues. Design a secure voting network- it will be as trustworthy as the pen and paper network we have today (probably more so- no more floridas). Eliminate the need for an elite ruling class.

w00t

The US does have e-government

[BeenaBerry]

The company I work for (e-Government Solutions (UK) Ltd) is part-owned by NIC, whose sole purpose is e-government in the US. So it does exist but as other posters have rightly pointed out, it's mostly at state level. One recent example is the State of Colorado portal.

In the UK, we're still catching up with the US!

I'll explain

[Aapje]

Foreigner's can be held with secret evidence:

Washington Report
----------------
Burning books & destroying CD's.

Libraries destroying information
----------------
The FBI can tap your communications without a warrant(carnivore). See the ATA for other violations of the constitution.
----------------
Dimitri? Held for how long for allowing Russians to exercise their fair use rights. Suppose Iran would arrest an american for creating a porn-program and posting it on the Internet (forcing their laws on you). Would you be angry?
----------------
DMCA. Take away your fair use rights, who wants to view DVD's on linux anyway? Copy media for your own use, thou shall not. 'Quoting' something (for a review or such), not allowed. Viewing an e-book in a non-approved browser: no, the traditional reverse engineering for interoperability is forbidden. Who needs competition anyway?
----------------
Mandatory censorship in libraries. Who needs freedom of speech? A good thing your daughter can't find info on birth control, the US would risk losing it's nr. 1 position in teenage pregnancies.
----------------
Randal Schwartz? A security advisor at Intel who forgot to inform his boss of running a password-auditing program. Even without hostile intent he was convicted. The same law can get you 15 years in Oregon if you run Napster on your computer or change the color of your screen without informing your boss (the judge gave that last example, I didn't make it up). They don't have to tell you it's wrong in advance.

Oregon vs our favorite Perl programmer
----------------
'But, but...other countries are far worse'

That's what I expect someone to say now.

Some News From France

[Godefroy Beauvallet]

Hello,

Let me introduce myself : my name is Godefroy Beauvallet and I am advisor for IT to Michel Sapin, who is the minister in charge of public service and eGovernment in France. More about him and the ministry here.

The BBC article is based on Governmental decisions taken on November, 15th here in France. I actually am one of the guys who briefed the BBC journalist on that one.

Branded "eGovernment : Second Stage", these decisions aim at generalising online services in the public sector before 2005.

To know more about the second stage, you can go here. To know more about the first stage, there is a page in English here.

It's of course difficult (and is it really interesting, anyway) to try and find out which government is the most advanced as far as eGov is concerned : what we all know (and we discuss that at EU level and with US, Canada and many others) is we all are still at the begining of the journey.

A few French highlights : the equivalent of FistGov is Service-public.fr. We believe it is a good informative portal, with about 100 online services, 1100 online static forms, access (index and search engine) to 6500 public websites, a "user manual" of 2500 pages and 1600 Q&A on about anything you want to do with the government (both local and national). Another site publishes everyday (and someone who said the opposite on the list is wrong) all laws and decrees taken by the Governement. Among services provided online are tax filings and payments (individual and firms), scholarships to students, access to public service jobs (through competitive examps) and many others.

We also try and do a lot of things to enhance interoperability among our information systems. We believe this is crucial, as we do not want to be mono-supplier of IT (for legal as well as strategic reasons). That lead us to rising interest in open-source software, and the Government Agency in charge of IT publish a lot of information on them here. Michel SAPIN also publicly endorsed the open-source movement in several occasions.

And to end this rather long post, I want to stress out that French citizens are very hot on privacy and personal data handling. Since 1978, there is an independant public body in charge of these questions here : the CNIL. Any database a ministry creates needs to be approved by the CNIL before it is put online, and there are many an example where a project was stopped by the CNIL on privacy concerns. We want to think carefully about these issues before we go on with a technical widget or another : the PM decided on November, 15th that three "wise guys" are to think about it : the former president of the Cour de Cassation (more or less the equivalent to the Supreme court), a high-ranking civil servant and a well-known sociologist. First report due on January 2002.

I could not explain a whole policy in this post. I would be pleased to try and answer more specific questions in the thread of by email.

Best regards !

Nonsense

[Mathieu Boespflug]

This is nonsense.
I am French and living in France and can tell you that the French are lagging WAY behind all the "modern" countries such as the US, UK or Germany. Statistics show that the number of french families connected to the Internet is not even 20%. Compare that to the near 50% US rate.
The French are old-minded people, and do not embrace new technology very fast, as said in a previous post on this page. They invented the minitel, great! but now what are they doing? sticking with that old dumb terminal from the early 1980's, instead of massively adhering to the Internet.

This is considered as a major issue right now in France, and the government has only consented to undertake a few symbolic actions against it. Go on that so-called online tax-paying site and tell me if you can actually pay your taxes... i doubt it.