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Cybercrime Treaty to Be Signed

texchanchan writes: "Yahoo reports that "Interior ministers and law enforcement officials from Europe, South Africa, Canada, the United States and Japan will sign the milestone cyber-crime convention.... [because] computer criminals... have moved on from ``innocent'' hacking to fraud, embezzlement and life-threatening felonies."" Feel the spin in that article, from the anonymous "official". We've posted about this treaty before; read the final draft and note it well, particularly the extradition provisions, mutual assistance (some other country gets your country to tap your phones, and send them the data) and the requirements to disclose passwords.

99 of 318 comments (clear)

  1. The irony by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 2, Funny

    South America is becoming a bastion of freedom.

  2. Passwords are not all by Rob+Kaper · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There are plenty of methods to hide data in plain sight with images and such. If I had real secrets, they wouldn't go unencrypted on a filesystem where only the kernel prevents access through a password. Or even store it in encrypted files or filesystems for which the password could be lost.

    If I really had to hide data, I'd make sure noone would even see I was hiding something.

  3. Autoimmune Disease by sickman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Here's another one.
    Honestly, are we more afraid of terrorists, or
    our own governments?
    George II says that Terrorists hate freedom, and want to take my freedom away. That isn't true.
    Terrorists can only take my life. Only my government can take my freedom.

    --
    Sickman's spinfusor catches Anonymous Coward by surprise.
    1. Re:Autoimmune Disease by maxpublic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Our own governments, of course. What self-respecting government, ruling from fear and intimidation, can tolerate the development of an increasingly open world where national boundaries become less and less important every day? It only makes sense that the traditional governments of the world would take off the glove and start smashing about with the iron fast, rather than willingly give up one iota of power.

      The only thing government understands, when it comes to power, is force. Time to start smashing back.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    2. Re:Autoimmune Disease by Bobzibub · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I fear governments more hands down.
      Governments kill waaaaaaaay more people than terrorists could ever dream of.
      I'm not even a gun toting small town boy from Wisconson either.

    3. Re:Autoimmune Disease by nosferatu1001 · · Score: 2, Informative

      We had our [british] civil war back i n1642, which instituted democracy pretty much firmly, taxes to government not the monarch etcetera

      only 130 years before you claim you invented it!

      bad luck old chap....

      And we brought democracy to more countries than america ever did. but i like your open source comment!

    4. Re:Autoimmune Disease by Malcontent · · Score: 2

      I would disagree a bit. Sure the power of the monarchy was reduced but the monarcy was not disolved. Maybe it's more accurate to say the idea of democracy was born in england but the actualy implementation took place here.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

  4. What about spammers ? by Fred_A · · Score: 2, Funny
    Does this mean I can finally drag US spammers in front of a euro court ?

    --

    May contain traces of nut.
    Made from the freshest electrons.
    1. Re:What about spammers ? by Hertog · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Maybe, but what worries me more is that now, apparently I can be lookt at/spied uppon for something that is illegal in the states, while living in the Netherlands.... Hmm, this does have some familiar ring to it. Hasn't something like this happend before? But then with somebody actually going to the states?

      --
      -=- I heard rumours about an OS called "Social Life", heard of it? Is it stable? -=-
  5. Landing Lights by sketerpot · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Someone switches off the landing lights via the computer systems. What does this tell them? Improve security? Maybe seperate the landing lights from the computers? No! They think that they can just scare people in to harmlessness. There have been laws like this for a long time, and there are still lots of poeple who R173 L1K3 7hI5!!!

    Improve security. Seperate important systems like landing lights from the internet. Don't just sue people.

    1. Re:Landing Lights by AndroidCat · · Score: 4, Funny

      The whole airport local net was probably accessable from the Internet. *shudder* Landing lights were probably the least damaging thing that could have been done to it!

      It'll get worse with the net-capable appliances of the future -- Shutdown all fridges in Boston every Friday the 13th, Code Red for toasters, etc. (Just kidding, I hope!)

      Star Wars (EpIV for you damned kids) should have warned them: An unauthorized R2 unit at a docking bay data port shut down all the garbage mashers on the Detention Level... Bad network security on something the size of a small moon!

      I guess I'd better not ever try out my prank of taking a highish power IR laser, modulating it with the on/full volume/play codes for most TVs, stereos, VCRs, DVDs -- and then painting a few nearby apartment buildings with it at 3am...

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  6. Funny... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I thought fraud, embezzlement, and life-threatening felonies were already against the law on these countries!

    1. Re:Funny... by mpe · · Score: 2

      Yes, all those things are already illegal. That hasn't stopped the Left from continually proposing greater gun control either.
      It comes down to this: Governments are, around the world, pretentious busybodies with nothing better to do than make everyone miserable.


      It's also that at some point the role og legislature has become seen entirely as passing legislation. Including that which is redundant or even not understood by the people passing it. With reviewing of existing legislation taking very much a back seat.
      It's not as if more legislation would help. Since typically if there is a problem it's with law enforcement. Indeed extra laws (especially ones which are themselves questionable) create more opportunity for law breakers to be found not guilty.

  7. Excellent by rnb · · Score: 3, Funny

    Soon, the Internet will reach its originally intended purpose of allowing people to shop online as quickly and efficiently as possible, and everything else will be outlawed.

  8. Don't worry... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    once Bush hears that this is an "international treaty", he'll back out of it because of US interests.

    1. Re:Don't worry... by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 5, Interesting
      once Bush hears that this is an "international treaty", he'll back out of it because of US interests.

      Oh, he'll sign it, but that doesn't matter, because the 50 states can safely ignore it. Really, they can, because Federal treaties are not binding on the states! This is according to George W. Bush himself: "Texas did not sign the Vienna Convention, so why should we be subject to it?" Statement from the office of Texas Governor George W. Bush

      So please write your state Attorney General and ask that they please ignore this treaty.

      Also, and more importantly, write your Senators and ask that they not ratify it in the first place.

      --
      If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
    2. Re:Don't worry... by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 2
      So, do you have another source for the quote, or should we just take your word for it?

      Sadly, no. I heard this on television last fall, from his lips (remember his daddy's famous quote?). He did say it -- I remember it because I thought it was an amazing statement from a candidate for the Presidency. But I don't have it on video tape. And I, too, have only found this one reference on the web. I've considered paying the Houston Chronicle's registration fee to search their archives, but that could be a waste of money -- who knows if they have it? I may break down and pay it anyway. Naturally, the Texas Governor's Office doesn't have it on their web site.

      If anyone can provide another reference, I'd greatly appreciate it. But he did say it.

      --
      If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
  9. Well, it's been fun. by Anonymous+DWord · · Score: 2

    I'm moving to Sealand, last bastion of the real free world. Nice knowing y'all.

    --
    "If he thinks he can hide and run from the United States and our allies, he's sorely mistaken." Bush on bin Laden
  10. Next July by sketerpot · · Score: 2, Funny
    Wait for next July, when a treaty on banning racial hatred from the internet will be drafted.

    I think that racists are cretins, but they have a right to hate whomever they please. They also have a right to express themselves, and the internet isn't immune to free speech. Now if only everyone else would agree....

    1. Re:Next July by CaptJay · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, banning hate speech causes more problems than you seem to think, mostly because different people will consider different things hate speech.

      Suppose that I say that all blacks should die. This may qualify as hate speech to you (as it would to me also), but would sound somehow reasonable for a white supremacist.

      How about if I say that Americans are terrorists, kill people and that their government should be destroyed. That would probably be considered hate speech as well, but not so by say, the Taliban.

      How about if I say that the Taliban are terrorists, kill people and that their government should be destroyed. Surely this is hate speech as well, if we are to hold everyone to the same standard?

      So therein lies the problem: different people, different points of view, which ends with the stronger one censoring the marginal one through the "hate speech" label.

      For another example, the Church of Scientology saying already says its critics engage in religious hate-speech in an attempt to quench criticism. Surely having a ban on hate speech at hand would please them and other criticized organisations greatly...

      --
      "I remember Y1K, every abacus had to get another bead"
    2. Re:Next July by cc_pirate · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No it's not. Racial hatred is abhorrent to most of us, but it is not like yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater as it does not put those hearing it in imminent danger of life and limb. Nor does it put those who it disparages in danger unless the person advocates violence toward them, in which case they are violating the law (in most countries).

      Before you advocate banning speech that you hate, think about the absurd lengths that political correctness can take people to. Besides, "Free Speech" is exactly that. The ability to say whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt others. And "hurt others" doesn't mean hurting their feelings. If they feel bad, tough $hit.
      Curtailing anyone's right to say what they want is way to EVIL to do it unless someone will be badly injured or killed if what they want to say is said, and it has to be directly linked.

      For some reason Europeans seem to think that you can just draw a line and say "That's hate speech" and still have freedom to express yourself. Maybe you can do that, but at what point does hate speech stop being hate speech.

      I mean, why ban Nazi items on Yahoo auctions? How "free" is that? The items aren't advocating racial hatred. That's just stupid.

      Even in the People's Republic of China you have "Free Speech" if you define "free" speech as that which the powers at be don't find offensive.
      Learn to listen to speech that you don't like. If it's as bogus as real racial hatred is, then you won't have to listen long, but the idiots spouting it will still have their rights intact.

      --

      "There are laws that enslave men, and laws that set them free. " - Sean Connery as King Arthur

    3. Re:Next July by Rand+Race · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Spouting racial hate speach is exactly like yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater: not in of itself illegal. If by yelling "fire!" in a theater or by spouting racial hatred one causes, say, a riot one will be charged with inciting a riot. If one causes the public to become endangered one will be charged with public endangerment. And if one causes a death by his speach one would be charged with manslaughter and/or conspiracy.


      Banning ANY speech is an infringement of Free Speech. Making one responsible for the consequences of one's speech is not.


      I don't get how people can look at words like "free" or "any" or "no law" and somehow see "limited" and "some" and "a few laws".

      --
      Insanity is the last line of defence for the master diplomat. But you have to lay the groundwork early.
    4. Re:Next July by mpe · · Score: 2

      Actually, banning hate speech causes more problems than you seem to think, mostly because different people will consider different things hate speech.

      Also you usually only end up banning whatever "hate speach" is politically incorrect or where the speaker dosn't hold political power.

      Suppose that I say that all blacks should die. This may qualify as hate speech to you (as it would to me also), but would sound somehow reasonable for a white supremacist.

      You can also hear similar sentiments from also sorts of groups. But it they represent "minorities" then there is little chance of much happening to them.

  11. life threatening by mlong · · Score: 4, Redundant

    If there is something life threatening about a computer being hacked, then perhaps the computer shouldn't be hooked up to the Internet.

    --
    //m
    1. Re:life threatening by Sabalon · · Score: 2

      Not all hacking comes in over the internet. At the hospital when my kids were born, they have data jacks on the wall and devices plugged into them. What if I was to unplug the monitor, plug a notebook in and start causing havok on their internal network?

    2. Re:life threatening by Sabalon · · Score: 2

      Sorry...I left out the part about the port on the wall being labeled with an IP address...guess that's kinda important :)

  12. As said in Planet of the Apes (old version)... by ClubStew · · Score: 2, Funny

    Oh shit, there goes the [Internet].

    1. Re:As said in Planet of the Apes (old version)... by ClubStew · · Score: 2

      Right, but wasn't this also said in the movie? I may be mistaken, it has been a long time since I saw the original and perhaps I got my memories cross with Space Balls. Sorry.

  13. This is a little scary by ReidMaynard · · Score: 3, Funny
    2. For the purpose of paragraph 1 above "child pornography" shall include pornographic material that visually depicts: ... b. a person appearing to be a minor engaged in sexually explicit conduct;

    So...all young looking porno models are out of work now....I's a sad, sad, day.

    --
    -- www.globaltics.net

    Political discussion for a new world

    1. Re:This is a little scary by SirSlud · · Score: 2

      Oh grow up. By that logic, the creators of Superman should be held accountable for kids leaping off the top of their building. Or old models should be held accountable for Billy Bob raping his 78 year old neighbour. Actually, maybe you should join that suit that the columnbine parents brought against ID software (they were 'simulating killing'!)

      Moron. Like everyone else, you forget that social patterns drive media and communication, not vice versa as we are taught to believe. Does my country, by destroying lesbian porn imports at the border, prevent women from seeking 'deviant lesbian' lifestyles? Of course not. It just forces them to make the porn themselves, which, SURPRISE, is counter the intentions of the conservative minds in charge. For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction, blah blah blah ...

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
    2. Re:This is a little scary by SirSlud · · Score: 3, Insightful

      > That is NOT the same thing as a Superman movie teaching a kid to jump off the roof. There's no 'urge' for the kid to jump off the roof, and Superman doing so doesn't teach the kid that it's okay to give in to his 'urge'.

      Okayokay. I retract my Superman example.

      Any violent movie. Bruce Willis is the hero. Does he teach us that killing is okay? That, if you have the urge to kill someone (as people tend to do), just find a bunch of wrong doers, and then shoot the living shit out of them? No, because is PRETEND killing, and the sane ones out there, know it. Just like pornography in which the subject 'appears young' tells us that it is OKAY to pretend .. it does NOT teach us that the real thing IS OKAY. People go to see it, not for the plot, or the acting, but because they want to see a PRETEND VERSION OF SOMETHING THAT IS DEFINATELY NOT OKAY WHEN DONE FOR REAL.

      Also:

      Diaper fetish movies. Athromorphic pornography. Rape fantasy movies. All are examples of situations or imagery that depict acts that, if carried out in real life, would inflict hurt on people (or animals.) I've had two girlfriends who loved rape porn. Does having pornography that ENACTS a scenario that participants and audiences know are wrong in real life constitute a violation of the rights of anyone? NO.

      I was abused as a child. I was abused as a teenager. Fuck you for telling me to keep my mouth shut about a subject I know nothing about, and double fuck you (unless you were also abused) for assuming you know the ramifications of such pornography.

      Urges are like earthquake faults. It's far better to let them out in small, consentual ways than to force someone into seeking out the 'big one' when the urges get too much with no release.

      So tell me .. were you abused, or are you just looking out for the poor helpless clueless defenseless abuse victims like me?

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
  14. I am not happy by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't think a computer crime should go unpunished, but I certainly do not want some other government to have to power to spy on me, let alone my own. all europe needs to do is what, say to the FBI...we want you to tape this man's wire so we can continue an investigation.....where is the oversight? there is none. a wire tape can be started by another country by way of just saying this person is a suspect in an investigation.....Im sorry, but I would perfer that i have my constitutional right protected while I am living in my country of origin. this makes every citizen suseptable to other countries legislation.....I trust my government more than I trust a forgien government, and I do not trust my government a whole lot.

    --



    I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
    1. Re:I am not happy by mpe · · Score: 2

      How will Europeans will handle this one. German basic law, and Napoleonic codes ARE supreme. British equity law has gone soft, and we now see see suspension of human rights , before proof is obtained.

      Though the reason behind this hasn't been made as clear as it could have been. One of the reasons behind this is that the human rights act does not allow extradition in cases where capital punishment may be applied. No special exceptions here for ths US...

  15. Maybe this will be good... by PhReaKyDMoNKeY · · Score: 2, Funny

    Exhibit 1:
    "[We will make illegal...]the production, sale, procurement for use, import, distribution or otherwise making available of [...]a device, including a computer program, designed or adapted primarily for the purpose of committing any of the offences established in accordance with Article 2 - 5"

    Exhibit 2:
    "Article 5 - System interference

    [C]ommitted intentionally, the serious hindering without right of the functioning of a computer system by inputting, transmitting, damaging, deleting, deteriorating, altering or suppressing computer data."

    So now Windows is illegal in Europe...

  16. Nuts by zpengo · · Score: 2
    I wonder if that was the same "official" that e-mailed me last week asking me to surrender my passwords and credit-card numbers in the name of national security.

    Can you imagine if this was all just an elaborate project dreamed up by some guy who just sits at his house all day long dreaming up ways to get access to people's information so he can sell it? It's a brilliant idea. By the time everyone realizes this whole thing is a put-on, the culprits will have made off with everything they need.

    Unless, of course, it's not a put-on. But by the time we realize that, the government will have made off with everything they need too...

    --


    Got Rhinos?
  17. Reciprocal indignities. by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Of course, we feel it's all great to battle "child pornography" while we defend race-hatred, while non-Americans (who often have very different ages of consent) consider that an infringement of their free speech. So are we implicitly trading the right to different types of censorship?

  18. Would this include Spammers? by RageMachine · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have to say that %50 of the spam I get on a daily basis is probably some kind of rip-off scam made up by some guy sitting in his room running on a free hosting service with a domain used to gather CC info.

    Does this mean that spammers will be considered terrorists? Will we have laws that will finally put these criminals in jail?

    I hope this is the case. Since the last article I read about spammers, Ive been sending letters charging them for bandwidth ($50 a pop) if they continue to spam. Hopefully now I will be able to just send a little email to the FBI and say, hey, here is a terrorist for you to give hell to. :)

    --

    --------------------------
    Is this a sig?
    --------------------------
    1. Re:Would this include Spammers? by Sir_Real · · Score: 2

      Ive been sending letters charging them for bandwidth ($50 a pop) if they continue to spam.

      How's that working out for you? I've been wondering about how viable this is... I'd be curious to hear the results...

    2. Re:Would this include Spammers? by Legion303 · · Score: 2
      I...I'm having an ethical dilemma. On the one hand, I think every senator and congressman who votes these constitutionally illegal laws into existence is a traitor and should die for treason. On the other hand, I would gladly shell out big bucks to DOJ@msn.net to see spammers hung up by their balls and beaten like pinatas. What would Jesus do?

      Probably both. Go, Jesus!

      -Legion

  19. Dear Slashdot by Exmet+Paff+Daxx · · Score: 5, Funny

    Attention! Now that this treaty has been signed into law, keep in mind that it is very important that you never forget your passwords. If you forget your password, and it is required for a terrorist investigation, you can be arrested for failure to disclose your password. Please be extremely careful with all your passwords, never EVER forget them.

    Specfically:
    - If you have Alzheimers, do not use any computer system that requires a password.
    - If you write software, make sure that any time you ask a user to create a password, you inform them that they could be imprisoned for life in a foreign country if they forget it.
    - If you have to remember multiple passwords, repeat them to yourself 100 times every night, before you go to sleep.

    Please follow these tips to keep everyone safe & free from terrorism!

    --
    If guns kill people, then CmdrTaco's keyboard misspells words.
    1. Re:Dear Slashdot by praedor · · Score: 2

      What the fuh? This wasn't a troll message, it took a point from the treaty and expanded on it to its absurd endpoint.


      Forgetting everything you did wrong is OK for a US President (Reagan, Bush senior, even Clinton) but forgetting a password is NOT OK for regular citizens under the cyber"crime" treaty. Forget and go to jail for obstruction of justice.

      --
      In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
    2. Re:Dear Slashdot by Malcontent · · Score: 2

      So what happens if you forget your password or pass phrase?

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    3. Re:Dear Slashdot by Twylite · · Score: 2

      I could be missing something here ... but has anyone READ this treaty? I can find no reference to an onus on a signatory to enact law that will force the disclosure of passwords.

      The treaty bans: illegal access and interception, data or system interference, and misuse of device (with Article 6(2) specifically putting in a way out for testing software). Forgery and fraud are also on the no-no list.

      The child porno regulations are overly broad because they include "realistic images" are porno, and define a minor as under 18 (16 at a push). This screws nations where the age of consent is low (as low as 14) and banning images can restrict education about child abuse.

      The Copyright provisions basically say that you must be a signatory to the Bern and Rome Conventions, and that you must enact legislation to outlaw wilful violations on a commercial scale.

      The adoption of many of these provisions (or at least the nastiest parts of them) is optional.

      Article 15 explicitly limits the application of the treaty to protect human rights and have the powers afforded under the treaty reasonably limited.

      As for "phone tapping" - provision is made for data preservation 'on demand', not for disclosure. A service provider must preserve data on request for up to 90 days, to give authorities a chance to request (through a normal court process) disclosure.

      I can find no reference to disclosure of passwords. If you are responsible for a computer system you may be required to submit data, which implies that you may be required to decode it if it is encoded. That could implicitly place an onus on any system administrator to have backdoor access to everything on the system.

      More worrying though is that every subscriber will need to be able to supply information about users of their service, including identity and address. While this is limited to the "information available on the basis of the service agreement", SPs (including Internet Cafes and ASPs) may have to get proof of identity from you to cover themselves.

      Article 19(4) is the bit that everything is shitting themselves about: 4. Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to empower its competent authorities to order any person who has knowledge about the functioning of the computer system or measures applied to protect the computer data therein to provide, as is reasonable, the necessary information, to enable the undertaking of the measures referred to in paragraphs 1 and 2. I think this speak for itself; if you know how to access the data, they can order you to do it.

      ISPs should worry about the provisions for collection and interception, but the Treaty states "within [their] existing technical capacity". The Treaty does not require ISPs to have the ability to do this!

      The extradition provisions are a big grey and worrying, but only relate to offenses under the treaty. The mutual assistance clauses are similarly restricted to the monitoring and laws enacted under the treaty; i.e. if you don't have a problem with the laws YOUR country enacts to fulfil their obligation to this treaty, then you have no need to worry.

      A lot of the FUD flying around on Slashdot related to the perception of what laws the US seems to want to enact in relation to this treaty. Most people seem oblivious to the provisions of the treaty itself, most of which are reasonably balanaced and aimed at identifying and preventing criminal activity, rather than screwing Joe Public.

      If you're a cracker, a DDoSer or a script kiddie, then you have more of a problem. You get treated like a graffiti artist or basically anyone who defiles someone else's property.

      If you're a hacker, by comparison, then you have permission to screw with your own system and find and report vulnerabilities.

      --
      i-name =twylite [http://public.xdi.org/=twylite], see idcommons.net
  20. See a pattern here? by joebp · · Score: 3, Insightful
    computer criminals, who have moved on from `innocent' hacking to fraud, embezzlement and life-threatening felonies

    Has anyone else noticed the increasing tendancy for the 'news' media to report links between mostly inert activities enabled by corporate and government stupidity, in the area of technology, and mass murder, terrorism and other, arguably more serious, crimes?

    Seems a good use of FUD on the media and government's part to reduce civil liberties and conceal their clear wrong technical choices.

    What kind of goddamn MCSE moron has a computer which controls landing lights connected, directly or otherwise, to the internet?

  21. It is important to note . . . by taustin · · Score: 5, Informative

    . . . that under the provisions of the United States Constitution, "Interior ministers and law enforcement officials" can sign whatever the hell they want, but only the US Senate can actually approve a treaty with another nation. And until they do, it's not law.

    Also note that treaties cannot alter the Constitution itself, nor can they implement anything that violates it.

    1. Re:It is important to note . . . by wiredog · · Score: 2, Flamebait
      Treaties can alter the Constitution.


      Article VI

      This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in pursuance thereof; and all treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme law of the land; and the judges in every state shall be bound thereby, anything in the Constitution or laws of any State to the contrary notwithstanding.

    2. Re:It is important to note . . . by praedor · · Score: 5, Informative

      This doesn't negate the original statement. Only Congress can OK a treaty. Until they do, signing the paper means nothing (see the treaty on Global Warming, signed but essentially dead in the US because it hasn't gotten past Congress).


      Without amending/revoking Constitutional Amendments, the treaty STILL cannot override the Bill of Rights, period. The ONLY way to beat something in the Bill of Rights and all Amendments attached to it is via another Amendment.

      --
      In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
    3. Re:It is important to note . . . by tommyk · · Score: 2

      you, and people like you, keep posting this. It seems you are not reading closely.

      State is the operative word here.

      See, there are State Governments, and Federal Governments. This clause is about State's rights, and basically says they don't have any. Federal Laws supercede state laws and Constitutions ( Yes, the States have Constitutions too... )

      It has 0 to do with Federal Laws. No law, treaty, or executive mandate supercedes the Federal constitution, period. It is the "Supreme Law of the Land" and can only be interpreted, rightly or wrongly, by the Supreme Court.

      People, please stop posting this thing... I've seen this so many times posted wrongly regarding treaties the US is going to enter into, I'm not going to answer it anymore. It only applies if Virginia or Ohio signs a treaty with Pago Pago.

    4. Re:It is important to note . . . by Col.+Klink+(retired) · · Score: 2

      Article VI is actually what keeps treaties from altering the Constitution.

      Treaties (just like other "laws of the United States") are part of the "Law of the Land" and, therefore, subject to the restraints of the Constitution.

      --

      -- Don't Tase me, bro!

  22. Re:Violation of liberites? I think not. by KjetilK · · Score: 2
    Well, yes, that is probably the intention yes, but what we all know is that when apologetics say "this law is not intended to land you in prison for [this and that]", unfortunately, as time passes they are often proved wrong.

    Insert "proving to the public that an expensive security system is flawed" for [this and that], and you'll see what I mean.

    --
    Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
  23. In come the landsharks^WLawyers by Darth+RadaR · · Score: 3, Informative

    I don't like where this is going.

    Article 11 - Attempt and aiding or abetting

    1. Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally, aiding or abetting the commission of any of the offences established in accordance with Articles 2 - 10 of the present Convention with intent that such offence be committed.


    Great. Now software developers that make things like Nmap, tcpdump, portscanner, sniffit, and other security tools will get jailed or fined out of existence and charged with "aiding and abetting" just because J. Random Cracker ran their software to 0\/\/3n3d someone's unsecured box. You just *know* some lawyer can't wait to make a bunch of money^W^W^W^W^Wuse this little bit of legislation to put people behind bars.

    --
    /*drunk.. fix later*/
    1. Re:In come the landsharks^WLawyers by chinton · · Score: 2

      Typical slashdot dramatization. There are loads of precedents against prosecution of the tool maker. When was the last time the manufacturer of a handgun (or knife, or screwdriver, or icepick) was tried in a murder case?

    2. Re:In come the landsharks^WLawyers by Darth+RadaR · · Score: 2

      Ahhh, but they have, ye who hath too much faith in the concept of common sense being a very common thing. :)

      DISCLAIMER: This is not a pro/anti gun rant. Just making a point.

      Check here and here and here to read about when the gov't filed suit against gun manufacturers. Even the NAACP and the state of California have filed suit against gun manufacturers. New York successfully won a case. Yes, these are technically murder based because they are blaming gun companies for murders that people commit.

      If the powers that be will go after powerful (i.e. lotsa $) gun manufacturers, you can be certain that they'll have no problem going after software developers and anyone that helps them. (*Cough* Dimitri Sklyarov *cough* 2600, *cough* DeCSS, ad infinitum) And they'll probably be villianized by the media as terrorists too. Who knows?

      No dramatization here, just the facts and a natural assumption that the people working on the "Cybercrime Treaty" do not have our best interests at heart.

      --
      /*drunk.. fix later*/
  24. NO WAY! by czardonic · · Score: 2, Funny

    Don't you see? If we allow the threat of cybercrime to force us to change the way we manage our landing lights, THE CYBERCRIMINALS HAVE WON!

    Improving security is an admission that our resolve to enforce security as it is has weakened. We must continue to live our lives, connect everything possible to the public network regardless of how vital or sensitive, and protect our assets with poorly concieved security mechanisms. To do anything else would show that the hackers and the rest of the terrorists have won!

    --
    Takahashi Rumiko made beats! DON, taku, DON, taku. . .
  25. Lessig's message never more timely by pdqlamb · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Lawrence Lessig came out the other week saying the geeks who helped create the internet, and enjoy the freedom it was designed to permit, are not helping to defend that freedom. Those who want to limit or eliminate that freedom, from big business who wants to sell you something, to those who want to use it to watch your every move, are winning the political battle by default.

    This is the time to prove Lessig wrong. I don't know how to get a congresscritter's attention any more. They only used to pay attention to postal mail, which they are afraid to open now. But between telephone, fax, e-mail, and watching out for him when he comes into town, I intend to let my congresscritters know not just how much I despise this crock, but why.

    It's time for a call to arms. Slashdotters can take down almost any web site, because there's lots of us and we're not too lazy to click on a few buttons. But if we want to avoid the tremendous pitfall this treaty will engender, it's time to slashdot Congress. I doubt there will be 10,000 phone calls, pieces of mail, etc., the entire Congress will get because of newspaper, radio, or TV coverage. If we're not too lazy, we can generate a normal ./ volume in faxes, phone calls, and so forth, we can make ourselves heard.

    The alternative is to whimper, roll over, and cringe.

    1. Re:Lessig's message never more timely by Christianfreak · · Score: 2

      Some time ago I worked for a company that was developing a system where one could go to a webpage, find his congress member and the system would fax the message to them (rather than emailing it). Maybe we should create an open source equivaliant. Then we can have our faxes and our laziness too! :)

    2. Re:Lessig's message never more timely by Sarcasmooo! · · Score: 2

      You can use Causenet at CommonCause.org to e-mail/fax/snail-mail your representatives about anything you like.

    3. Re:Lessig's message never more timely by Malcontent · · Score: 2

      Yes go ahead and issue a call to arms. It won't work. This is just one of a series of devestating blows to the so called "geek community". I don't need to go into the litany of awful decisions made by the govt on technical issues from the MS settlement to the anti terrorist bill. Why do you think they win all the time? Why is it that we are batting 0%. Here are few possible reasons.

      1) There is no such thing as a geek community. Sure a bunch of people hang out on slashdot but most don't really care. In fact most can't even agree on anything and here to perpetuate some flame war or another.
      2) Even though geeks make more money then your average teacher or auto worker they are not willing to part with their money to bribe congresspeople. Without those bribes you get shit.
      3) Geeks are notoriously anti union. Not only are they anti union but they hate the idea of joining any kind of organization which smacks of resembling a union. As a result teachers and autoworkers get heard and you get shit.
      4) Geeks tend to worship businesses and business. They are afraid or unwilling to critizise businesses for bribing politicians or unwilling or afraid to critize their own companies for bribing politicians. Imagine if the programmers at disney got together and told their bosses to lay off pushing stupid laws.

      I am sure you can think of more but in essense you have to organize and raise money. All your emails and faxes and mails do nothing. A politicians only cares about where the money is coming from. Right now Disney, AOL, Microsoft etc are spreading around millions of dollars while the geeks are playing everquest. What do you expect?

      --

      War is necrophilia.

  26. Copyright? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Article 10 - Offences related to infringements of copyright and related rights 1. Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law the infringement of copyright, as defined under the law of that Party pursuant to the obligations it has undertaken under the Paris Act of 24 July 1971 of the Bern Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, the Agreement on Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights and the WIPO Copyright Treaty, with the exception of any moral rights conferred by such Conventions, where such acts are committed wilfully, on a commercial scale and by means of a computer system.


    Look carefully at the last eleven words. Does this mean our warez sites are not covered under the convention?

  27. Re:No No No by praedor · · Score: 2

    No, no, no times 1000


    The treaty is by corporations for corporations. It is slanted heavily in favor of corporations and their "property".

    The treaty is intended to feed into the hands of RIAA and M$ and anyone else who thinks you don't buy music or software, just a single-use license to hear or use the item on a device, and by a person, THEY approve of.

    --
    In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
  28. Whoa. Paranoia runs deeper than i thought. by imrdkl · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Man. This is pretty sad, folks. I mean, at least theres encryption. But you gotta use encryption for fun too, or the strength is broken.

    Every country that signs onto this treaty currently has citizens who can use encryption. The legalities are changing, it seems since the various governments realized that the cat is already out of the bag, wrt encryption. The bad guys got it, and the good guys need to get it now. Witness in fact, direct from the treaty:

    to the extent that such means provide appropriate levels of security and authentication (including the use of encryption, where necessary

    So, it's simple. Make yourself a key, and begin to encrypt things you send. If you dont know what it means to make a key, then go read any PGP site, including the one (still) at MIT.

    If you really want to oppose this at the level where it matters, then encrypt. Dont write your senator, dont address the fine folks in Brussels. Encrypt.

    Remember, encryption makes the internet a cozy bedside chat. Use it with your lovers, and use it with your friends.

    Fear only the One who can factor large primes in his head, and never let them put a key on your head or your hand. Simple. Easy. Fun. Have fun. Love God. Love your neighbor. And have a Great Thanksgiving, America.

  29. european surveillance extended world wide by tsinterface · · Score: 2, Interesting
    It is sad to see that the US goes the European way regarding civil liberties. Many people tend to think that europe is more-crypto friendly or so, because the german government sponsors GnuPG.

    But Germany is the country with the most tapped phones per 1000 inhabitants in the whole world, and still growing.

    That they fund GnuPG hast something to do with the fact, that the european industry is afraid of Echelon.

    But the government is really eager nowadays to enforce an Orwellian police state.

    If you are able to understand german, there are some disturbing articles at telepolis about the new European cyber-police called Enfopol.

    Anybody know a country which doesn't sacrifice freedom to "fight terrorism" these days ?

  30. Re:Spammer != Terrorist by 13013dobbs · · Score: 2

    I think that using the word terrorist to describe a spammer just cheapens the word terrorist. Terrorists are people who try to kill and/or harm people. While spammers may be bad people, I doubt they are trying to hurt or kill anyone.

    --

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  31. "...life-threatening felonies?" by broter · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Can someone please give me an example of *ONE* "life-threatening [felony]" that has been committed as a resulkt of a hack?

    I don't remember ever reading about one...

    --
    "One man can change the world with a bullet in the right place."
    - Mick Travis, "If..."
    1. Re:"...life-threatening felonies?" by ellem · · Score: 2

      If some skript kiddie takes out a hospital computer system certainly lives could be in danger.

      --
      This .sig is fake but accurate.
    2. Re:"...life-threatening felonies?" by Legion303 · · Score: 2
      If some skript kiddie takes out a hospital computer system certainly lives could be in danger.

      Certainly. Similarly, if a hospital's network were to crash on its own, lives could be in danger as well. But those are hypotheticals. He asked for proof of something that's already happened.

      -Legion

    3. Re:"...life-threatening felonies?" by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 4, Informative

      Can someone please give me an example of *ONE* "life-threatening [felony]"

      Here is one..

      In 1997 a Massachusetts teenager broke into and disabled telecommunications at Worchester airport, disabling the control tower for 6 hours.

      http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/cybercrime/juvenil ep ld.htm

      I am sure there others.

  32. Re:Spammer != Terrorist by 13013dobbs · · Score: 2

    Yeah. I work in a security/abuse department. I have seen both sides call the other terrorists. Spammers call anti-spammers terrorists. Anti-spammers are calling spammers terrorists. People who get scanned by a Nimda infected machine claim they are being scanned by hacker terrorists. Anyone who does something 'bad' to you is a terrorist now. Using terrorist in that way just cheapens the word terrorist.

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  33. Innocent? by nooch · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "A European convention to be signed on Friday aims to unite countries in the fight against computer criminals, who have moved on from ``innocent'' hacking to fraud, embezzlement and life-threatening felonies."

    This little quote from the article on yahoo illustrates another misconception... that "innocent" hackers are the one moving into fraud etc. Innocent hackers are still innocent hackers. Criminals that perpetrate these crimes intended to be criminals from the outset. The people (jerks) committing these so-called life-threatening felonies most likely never were innocent, or even hackers.

    We should stand up and say something to our legislators, but realistically nothing will be done. I have tried to contact my "congresswoman" on several occasions to no avail. The only thing most politicians seem to care about are their careers. Sorry to the decent politicos for the generalization.

    J

    --
    Fire in the sky
  34. Interesting tidbits you'll find in the draft: by Chagrin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Section 9.2.c:
    "child pornography shall include pornographic material that visually depicts ... realistic images representing a minor engaged in sexually explicit conduct."

    Rendered images will be deemed illegal. (Also note that section 9.2.b says you can't take pronographic pictures of someone that "appears" to be a minor)

    And no, I am not a fan of child pornography, but section 9.2.c seems to be making new clarifications to current pornography law, and 9.2.b is just very poorly worded.

    --

    I/O Error G-17: Aborting Installation

    1. Re:Interesting tidbits you'll find in the draft: by Legion303 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      And no, I am not a fan of child pornography, but section 9.2.c seems to be making new clarifications to current pornography law, and 9.2.b is just very poorly worded.

      If it weren't so pig-headed and blatant, it would almost be funny; for years the government has deemed child porn a crime because it victimizes children. That's a great reason to outlaw it, but now we see it isn't the real one. As vile as child porn is, who's being victimized when someone draws a child porn situation (c.f. some anime)? According to this new treaty, the "artist" himself is about to be victimized. Don't you just love moral agendas in the government?

      -Legion

    2. Re:Interesting tidbits you'll find in the draft: by mpe · · Score: 2

      If it weren't so pig-headed and blatant, it would almost be funny; for years the government has deemed child porn a crime because it victimizes children. That's a great reason to outlaw it, but now we see it isn't the real one. As vile as child porn is, who's being victimized when someone draws a child porn situation (c.f. some anime)?

      The reasoning behind it is also disturbing. Its effectivly a case of "if must be this way otherwise it's too difficult to obtain convictions".
      You also end up with subjective exceptions, unless you want to ban Shakesphere or Star Trek Voyager.

      According to this new treaty, the "artist" himself is about to be victimized. Don't you just love moral agendas in the government?

      You also have a likelyhood of a double standard where if you are Paramount you can have a 3 year humanoid alien having sex. But if you are joe public artist or writer then it isn't ok (unless you happen to be a famous enough actor/author...)

  35. Drawing the line by Pinball+Wizard · · Score: 2
    There are certain things your employer is not allowed to do when hiring. He/she cannot discriminate on the base of race, sex, religion, etc.


    Voila, there's your line. Its accepted whats OK and whats not OK when it comes to hiring, by the same token a set of rules can be applied to hate speech.


    Hate speech IMO is not OK because it infringes on the rights of those it is directed to. The right of the African-American community for instance, to live peacefully without slander directed toward them, is more important than the right of white supremacicts to spout their false garbage.

    --

    No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?

    1. Re:Drawing the line by cc_pirate · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So now we can't talk about religion, sex, etc. for fear that someone will take offense and call it "hate speech"? How insanely stupid. This is the problem with curtailing ANY speech. This is the path that leads to. This is why SMART people in the US through court cases have said that prior constraint of speech is to be avoided at all costs and only allowed where DIRECT and DAMAGING results will occur.

      Besides, YOU think the speech of the white supremecists is false garbage. Who made YOU arbiter of the universe? YOU might think that the DMCA is beautiful and those who oppose it are spouting false garbage as well. Maybe it's "hate speech" to denounce the DMCA as the evil piece of $hit it is. Down this path leads madness.

      The German government thinks the Scientologists are spouting false garbage, but the Scientologists say they are just practicing their religion. Who's right?

      Let people hear it for themselves and make their own opinion. That is "openness". That is "Freedom". Freedom is protecting ALL speech. That doesn't mean that SOME speech can't have consequences, but it should only be speech where it can be proven to be DIRECT and DAMAGING.

      Besides, the eventual end of this "don't discriminate" stuff being applied everywhere is where we have Arab terrorists killing 5000 people and the police unable to question Arabs because they are Arab and came from Afganistan/Saudi Arabia, etc., even though there is a high probability they know something about the attacks.

      No one should be discriminated against unfairly, but we shouldn't let political correctness lead us to stupidity either.

      --

      "There are laws that enslave men, and laws that set them free. " - Sean Connery as King Arthur

    2. Re:Drawing the line by xmedar · · Score: 2

      Scientology isn't a religion, it's a way for a (very) few people to steal as much as they can from people with poor psychological health. Scientology should be treated as a public health problem and I think this is exactly what the German government is trying to do.

      And how exactly is that different from every other organised religion?

      --
      Any sufficiently advanced man is indistinguishable from God
    3. Re:Drawing the line by mpe · · Score: 2

      The problem with an hypothetical international treaty on hate speech is that hate speech would not be agreed on between the different countries: The US might say that anti-globalization speech is corporate hate-speech,

      Which opens anotheter can of worms with the issue of "what is globalizaation in the first place". Considering that many multinationals want the likes of DVD region coding, ability to outlaw "grey imports", etc when it suits them...
      Anyway banning "hate speach" usually ends up equating as banning politically incorrect speach, regardless of any "hate" content.

  36. Re:Whoa. Paranoia runs deeper than i thought. by CubeDweller · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Here's a challenge to any mathematically-minded geeks with way too much spare time:

    I want a new form of encryption. I want this form of encryption to take two separate plain text messages and two separate passwords. I want the algorithm to generate a single cipher text.

    This allows me to have one real message and one 'bluff' message. If my password is ever demanded of me, I can provide the 'bluff' password. Lo and behold it reveals an innocent, readable message.

    I probably have the skills to implement this such that the cipher text contains both messages in separate blocks, but it would be too easy for someone to detect the fact that the cipher text contains two messages. It would be great if somebody knew how to make this sophisticated enough to appear to any reasonably intelligent encryption buff to be a single message.

    My limited experience in this field makes me think this would be very computationally difficult. Hundreds of thousands of internal keys would need to be generated until a set of keys is found that yield the same ciphertext for the two messages. Brute force would be unrealistic, so you'd need someone with some fairly serious math skills to come up with some fancy algorithm.

    Even better would be if the 'bluff' text could be decrypted by some common tool like PGP. This would do no good if the person asking for passwords knew to ask for two of them.

  37. Re:Whoa. Paranoia runs deeper than i thought. by Borealis · · Score: 2

    The law makes it mandatory to reveal any encryption keys you have. Failure to do so can result in fine/imprisonment etc.

    As a previous poster mentioned, best not be forgetting those passwords, you could be jailed for not supplying it.

    So imagine a scenario, you slander somebody in the UK, under the UK's more draconian slander laws the UK government requests your files from your computer. The US law enforcement agencies then confiscate your computer and demand all encryption keys. You, not wanting to go to jail, supply them with all you can remember, however there are 3 you don't recall. You go to jail for not supplying keys....

    ... or, during the process of the investigation, the UK law enforcement officials let it slip (since they know you can't do anything to them) that according to your email archives you're having an affair with your wife's sister....

    ... or, they find evidence of slander and order you to pay restitution of 100,000 or face extradition and jail.

    Mind, you as previously stated, until congress gives it the OK, this is still somewhat conjecture, but just encrypting anything is not necessarily the answer.

    --
    Unbreakable toys can be used to break other toys.
  38. Re:Violation of liberites? I think so by camusflage · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Don't take a law that's designed to stop malicious people and extrapolate it into something that's going to take ones and zeros and make them illegal.

    I'm sure this statement would've been much comfort to Dmitry Skylarov as he spent weeks in jail. Obviously he's one of those malicious people that laws are supposed to go after. Just because a law isn't intended to do one thing doesn't it mean it won't be used anyway.

    Simply talking about hacking or trying to figure out how things work isn't going to land you in prison.

    Sure thing. I'm sure that Steve Jackson will back this one all the way.

    --
    The truth about Scientology, Xenu, and you: Operation Clambake
  39. Re:Spammer != Terrorist by 13013dobbs · · Score: 2

    If you feel terrorized by a piece of email, you need to get a grip on your life. Honestly, it is just a piece of email. Delete it and go on with your life.

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  40. Re:Is it even true? by ktakki · · Score: 2
    I'd like to see references to this alleged incident. I find it curious that the first I've heard of this serious matter is from this anonymous Euro official. I smell bullshit.


    It was in Worcester, MA. 1998 or 1999, I think. A 15-year-old kid using a wardialer found the dial-in access number for one of the control systems at the local airport. Details of his crack were pretty sketchy, but I believe he brute-forced the password and got inside. I'm sure RISKS-L has the full story.

    k.
    --
    "In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
  41. Pilots can easilly turn them back on by FreeUser · · Score: 5, Informative

    Someone switches off the landing lights via the computer systems.

    As a pilot who has experienced this sort of thing (through other causes) I can say with certainty that any competent pilot can either switch the runway lights back on or go missed (or both if their not comfortable with the situation). Most airports, even the large ones, have pilot controlled lighting (key the mike n times on the CTAF/Tower Frequency). If the pilot is already in the flair then s/he can already see the runway with the plane's landing/taxi lights, and unless visibility is really, really bad (in which case they can go missed) they can land at that point without the runway lights being on at all.

    If there really aren't options (like a blackout due to thunderstorm, terrorist bomb, or luser system cracker), then the pilot can do a missed approach and enter a holding pattern (if on instruments) until the situation is resolved or s/he is diverted to another airport, or if flying VFR simply go around and either try the approach again or find an alternate airport. Even in the worst case scenerio turning off the runway lights, even on short final, is hardly life threatening. Hell, its happened to me simply because the lights had been turned on 15 minutes earlier by another landing pilot and the timer shut the lights off with the threshold about fifty feet away from my descending aircraft. Seven quick clicks on the mike and I completed the landing without even a raise in pulse. This sort of thing happens all the time in non-computerized systems, and I will repeat again, it is not life threatening. Adding a computer to the situation doesn't change that, in the least.

    --
    The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
  42. Perhaps it's time by Myselfthethoom · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Perhaps it is time for the geeks of the world to declare the internt a soverign country, with and end user licenses agrement that says something like the folowing:
    ATTENTION by connecting your computer to the internet you agree that
    1) Everyone has the right to say whatever they $^&# 'ign want and you can choose to listen or not.
    2) you realize that the internet might be insecure, like walking down a street, Provide secruity for yourself.
    3) We wil not take down a page you find offencive, someone wanted to say that.
    4) We don't care about treaties you all signed, they are not ours.
    5)By conneting your machine to our network you agree that you have read this agreement, even if you are a government this applies to you.
    6) I said that we don't care if you are #$%'ing offended you controll where you browse.
    7)Don't look to us to solve your internal network problems, it is YOUR fault they were not secure.
    To governments:
    we know your country has laws, so do we, we don't care what someone in another country did, it was not in your country. If you are so afraid of content perhaps you are closed minded or if you dislike content perhaps your citizens shouldn't be here.

    Perhaps someone a little bit better should draft the deleration of indpendence for the net, But Hey the whole internet dosen't need to be indepented, Perhaps /. could declare soverinty along with other places that would work better too. I suppose my long rant ends with a summary. I don't reacall the citizens of the internet having a say, that is bad.

    --
    "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master"-Unknowen
  43. Re:Whoa. Paranoia runs deeper than i thought. by Legion303 · · Score: 3, Informative
    The law makes it mandatory to reveal any encryption keys you have. Failure to do so can result in fine/imprisonment etc.

    This is where Rubberhose comes in. Never thought I'd need it in America....

    -Legion

  44. Luckily by OmegaDan · · Score: 2, Funny

    Luckily congress still has to approve the treaty and we're lucky they're not stupid enuf--oh *shit*.

  45. References by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    I guess I shouldn't call bullshit without doing my research first, but interestingly, this story has some details:


    In March [1999], Department of Justice computer crime chief Scott Charney regaled a gathering of bankers with the story of a 1997 hacker who crashed a telephone switch, resulting in the landing lights at a Massachusetts airport going black.

    Regular readers of this column will recall my conversation with the airport administrator, who assured me that his runway lights never even flickered.



    Another report adds :


    This incident was benign
    But authorities said the outage had in fact caused no danger and little or no disruption at the airport, which sees a half-dozen flights a day.

    "I don't have any reason to believe ... that there was danger on March 10th to anyone," said Stephen P. Heymann, deputy chief of the Criminal Division of the U.S. Attorney's Office, District of Massachusetts, who is the head prosecutor on the case. "But that doesn't mean that if the same thing hadn't happened at night when planes were taking off and landing, that the danger wouldn't have been present. If it had happened at night, we could be looking at something very different by way of a story here."

    In other words, the landing lights were not turned out, not least because it happened during the day. The Euro official's statement may not be complete bullshit as I claimed, but it's misleading at least. According to this piece on media hacking, the story is false. Yet this government site repeats the story and even claims that planes were diverted.


    Whatever the truth of what really happened, there's clearly large dollops of myth in with the facts and it's no wonder my bullshit detector went off...

  46. what I'd kill for by maxpublic · · Score: 2, Insightful

    God, I'd kill for a country that wasn't so full of it's own pseudo-moral in-your-face neighbors-want-to-tell-you-how-the-fuck-to-live-yo ur-life bullshit. What violence I wouldn't do to live an a free country that's actually FREE.

    Hey, I'm not sure if I remember this correctly since the Unacceptable Textbook Ban Treaty of 2014, but weren't there some guys who pretty much said the same thing back in the 1700's and did something about it?

    Hope that little comment doesn't violate the Revisionist History Act of 2019. Wait, hold on, somebody's pounding on my front door....

    Max

    --
    My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
  47. What about confidential files? by rhincewind · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When asked, one must suply his/her password, right? So how does this work with doctors, lawyers (e.a.) and non-disclosure agreements with third parties? How will this law relate to other trust-relations which are also integrated within law?

    Before a file is decrypted, it is impossible to tell whether it is part of such relation, or if it in fact contains illegal data, so how will this work out?

    --
    --Black holes are where God divided by zero--
  48. Re:Whoa. Paranoia runs deeper than i thought. by shimmin · · Score: 3, Funny
    However, Ron Rivest has shown in his papers on "chaffing and winnowing" that you can have efficient encryption based only on authentication. Essentially, you toss garbage information in with the real stuff and use MAC's in such a way that only someone who knows the authentication key can distinguish the real data from the garbage.

    This alone is nice, but the kicker is that the 5th amendment (self-incrimination) should prevent legislation that requires the release of authentication (as opposed to encryption) information. The courts have repeatedly ruled that while the authorities have the right to subpoena your data, they cannot (under protection against self-incrimination) require you to testify that the data is in fact yours.

  49. "Sorta like the Volstead act" by Biker+Jim · · Score: 3, Interesting

    So I read it. the whole thing. Looks like it will:
    A-Keep a zillion or so int. lawyers off food stamps for the foreseeable future.
    B-Reassure the int. fat cats that the "problem has been adequately addressed"
    C-Set a new world record for obscufatory( I think that means unclear, sometimes contradictory and in view of the mass of existing law on the issue somewhat pointless) rhetoric.
    D-Scare the pants off every cracker in the known world.( Man! I could hear all those plugs coming out of wall sockets all the way over here!)
    E-Prove to the world that these guys(and gals and any others of the 8 or 9 known sexes involved) know what they are talking about and have banded together to do something about it!

    As i sometimes do, I went to one of my old fart buddies and got his opinion (I'm 52 so these guys are really ancient). I explained it rather well I thought and when he stopped laughing he had this to say.
    "Well it sorta reminds me of the Volstead act. (Booze prohibition in the 20's) We'd come out of those logging camps with a hell of a thirst and there was nary a drop to be had. We bought our booze from the local sherrif because he would'nt throw us in the pokie if we bought it from him. I don't remember that it changed much of anything at all except who got our wages. But you know that pretty much convinced us all that when it comes right down to it each man has pretty much got to make his own rules. You know what I mean?"

    Yeah, guess I do. Well thaks for taking the time to read this. Jim Sofra, Queen Charlotte Island,"The trailing edge of technology"

    1. Re:"Sorta like the Volstead act" by fishbowl · · Score: 2

      >But you know that pretty much convinced us all
      >that when it comes right down to it each man has
      >pretty much got to make his own rules.

      Sounds to me like the Sherrif made the rules.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  50. Re:Whoa. Paranoia runs deeper than i thought. by imrdkl · · Score: 2
    Er, yea. Thats what I meant. (or wanted to mean, anyways :-) Nice.

    Sharing of information privately does usually imply encrypting with someone elses key, and signing with your own. It's nice to know that signing alone gives anyone a clean alternative to plead the fifth. This makes the written word unrecordable until it is revealed willfully, as in a beaten confession, I guess. :-)

  51. Re:Spammer != Terrorist by 13013dobbs · · Score: 2
    No. I am saying that a theoretical someone could feel threatend by the fact that there are people that they don't know compiling information about their personal lives.
    This theoretical person had either live in a shcak in the hills and not interact with anyone he/she does not know, or learn to deal with it.


    Wait! I thought I was the paranoid one, and you were the one who vanquished harrasing messages with a tap on your delete key
    No. You are the one who claims that spammers are terrorists. I am the one who deletes the spam and gets on with life instead of playing the victim.

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  52. The quickest way to get this treaty nullified... by bani · · Score: 2

    Is to find some twisted way to get a high ranking politician or law enforcement official liable under the treaty.

    Use the treaty as a tool against those individuals who passed it in the first place.

    The wording of the treaty is loose enough that there should be plenty of wiggle room to abuse.

    Just imagine a US official being extradited to some obscure european country... the US will nullify that treaty so quickly the photons won't have time to reach your eyeballs.

  53. OT - your sig by Technodummy · · Score: 2

    "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."

    This quote is from the Alpha Centauri game. From the character Commisioner Pravin Lal (leader of the UN Peacekeeper faction), and said to be from the U.N. Declaration of Rights.

  54. Vulnerability demonstration code outlawed by Pelam · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The following has the potential to outlaw current feedback system that keeps vendors providing patches for glaring holes in their products. See Bruce Schneiers CryptoGram.

    If the interpretation of device is as wide as it was in the DeCSS/DMCA case, also discussion about vulnerabilities could be prosecuted. Not to mention the actual exploits that seem to be the only things that push some vendors to take action.

    I live in Europe/Finland. Until now it has been mostly safe to distribute & possess things like DeCSS here, but that seems to be changing.

    Quotes from the convention:
    Article 6 - Misuse of devices

    1. Each Party shall adopt such legislative and other measures as may be necessary to establish as criminal offences under its domestic law, when committed intentionally and without right:

    a. the production, sale, procurement for use, import, distribution or otherwise making available of:

    i. a device, including a computer program, designed or adapted primarily for the purpose of committing any of the offences established in accordance with Article 2 ? 5;

  55. Re:Whoa. Paranoia is not just a game. by mpe · · Score: 2

    Note that encryption is only useful if you encrypt all your message and chat traffic. If you only encrypt the sensitive ones, it's easier to break. And it makes it obvious that those are the messages that one wants to break in the first place.

    It's even more effective if the majority of people use encryption.

  56. Re:So where should I move to? by Lemmy+Caution · · Score: 2
    First off, there's no place without some racist people; the question is whether they have enough sense to keep the racism out of their policy. Much of Latin America *is* racist in the sense of stereotypes and jokes, but there's a lot more intermingling and socializing between different racial groups, and Brazil has had so much intermarrying between races that it's more like a continuum of features than a society of races.

    It's still easier to get rich in the US than anywhere else. That is not the be-all and end-all of freedom as far as I am concerned. Right now, it's easier to get rich in China than in Mexico, but Mexico is definitely freer. In places like Mexico and the less bureaucratically overwhelming parts of Latin America, you are pretty much completely free to try to get rich. But wealth occurs in the context of markets and infrastructure, and even in some cultural variables none of which have anything to do with law or governments.

    Brazil does have a very cosmopolitan culture; great city life and night life. If you are will to simply make a good living and have a nice place, rather than get stinking rich, you might prefer it.

  57. Re:Whoa. Paranoia runs deeper than i thought. by Cally · · Score: 2
    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1


    Remember, encryption makes the internet a cozy bedside chat


    ...unless you're communicating with someone in the UK, who can
    be compelled to hand over /their/ key (on pain of five years
    in prison), and who is forbidden to tell you (or anyone else)
    that using encryption to communicate with them is now
    compromised (on pain of, you guessed it, five years in
    prison. This is the way that ECHELON works: one of it's
    functions is to allow certain members of UKUSA to get around
    domestic legislation banning surveillance of their own citizens.
    There's no law forbidding them from using stuff intercepted,
    and then passed on by, friendly governments.


    The worldwide stampede to crush individual's freedom and privacy
    is the most depressing thing to happen since I was born four
    decades back. Join the EFF, write to your governmental representatives,
    and encrypt, encrypt, encrypt... secure your machines and networks
    as well as you possibly can. Use IPSec. Use VPNs. Tunnel stuff through
    ssh.

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (CYGWIN_NT-4.0)
    Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

    iD8DBQE7/VmVkZawWPzItK8RAncVAJ0ZmBWoSyZvCTaez68W wC XiCWGkXwCePYNs
    5GaHQtwd6JBeRGZIdnWZ8GQ=
    =/2q4
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    --
    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe