Slashdot Mirror
LinuxBIOS Gains Steam
solferino writes: "LinuxJournal has a good overview article about linuxBIOS and where it's currently at (hint : moving like a sleek penguin under arctic ice). Why linuxBIOS? To quote from the article "Currently two different interest groups are working on LinuxBIOS: one working on embedded systems and one building large-scale computer clusters. For these applications the legacy x86 firmware is suboptimal." Yes, this was a slashdot story in March this year but this article is relevant for updating the project status and for providing indepth information."
does anyone think the market adopt it?
Bloody hell!
The editors noticed a duplicate submission!!!
They must have improved the coffee at Slashdot HQ.
--
Andy
does anyone think the market adopt it?
maybe drop it. or drop kick it. waitaminite...adopt? ABORT! For the love of humanity!
Moving like a sleek penguin under arctic ice? I'm thinking brave but lost and alone, thousands of miles from his home at the Antipodes, almost certain to starve...is there anything we can do to help? A walkathon? A benefit concert? A herring?
This next song is very sad. Please clap along. -- Robin Zander
As LinuxBIOS currently does not provide a compatibility layer for booting other operating systems besides Linux (notably Windows)...
If OpenSource has a project like this and the comptability is never included, I don't even want to think about what MS could retaliate with...
[quibble]Any penguin under arctic ice is seriously lost. Antarctic ice, certainly. The Falklands, and other land masses of the high southern latitudes, certainly. But not in the Arctic.[/quibble]
They already have a closed BIOS shipping on the XBOX.
It wouldn't be hard, technically, to start demanding OEM's ship this BIOS on any system shipping with Windows.
Female Prison Rape in NY
Bootstrapping? Anything else?
Typical, when they're not decrying Microsoft for embracing and extending, they themselves are embracing and debilitating.
Even Compaq, today's best known advanced technology destroyer, managed to make a *faithful* copy of the IBM PC BIOS.
Anyway, why an embedded device would want to use x86 hardware is beyond me...
You sound bitter about janitors. Did he abuse you with his broom while you studied there? Did you fail to get his job and had to become the school gardener? Did this mean bending over while weeding, resulting in yet more broom abuse?
That's one nightmare that would not be permitted because of the antitrust suit. It works for Apple, and for XBOX, because the hardware manufacturer can decide what to put in it (so long as they are not a monopoly--IBM got nailed for not allowing third party software, back in the day). But MS is not allowed to do something that would prevent OEM's from installing a different OS.
Even the secure DRM computer mentioned here earlier is likely to limit authentication to authorized OS's (of which Windows is likely to be the only one using x86 hardware), rather than prohibiting unauthenticated OS's from running. Unless that law that requires OS's to be secure gets passed... That would be bad all over, though.
Even Slashdot wants to hide some things
>LinuxJournal has a good overview article about linuxBIOS and where it's currently at (hint : moving like a sleek penguin under arctic ice).
.. last time I checked .. there were no Penguins under the Artic Ice .. so maybe you are saying that the LinuxBios is NOWHERE?
Umm
Then run a Transmeta and rewrite their codemorpher as Free Software! There is a final solution to the windows problem.
--The knowledge that you are an idiot, is what distinguishes you from one.
It is no better to be locked into running Linux on a machine than to be locked into running Windows. The BIOS should be a generic facility that can load any desired operating system.
For example I've got a 440LX motherboard with Adaptec SCSI built-in. The 440LX is not supported and there was absolutely no information about the SCSI. It seems like all the new motherboards include RAID controllers... I found no information about these either..
So for the markets they mentioned(embedded, and clusters), this is useful... but I don't see normal users needing this.
Looking for any old 8-bit Heathkit/Zenith software/hardware - http://heathkit.garlanger.com
This is a great thing for consumer electronics, web pads and X-terminals based on the X86 architecture. I can see a whole generation of embedded devices with sub second boot times.
I can also see this in the first consumer Linux box. It would be a great selling point for people to be able to get to a login prompt on X-windows in less than 3 seconds, while in the background the rest of the OS continued to initialize.
The sales man could turn on a Linux box, a Mac and a Windows box at the same time. The linux box would come up first, followed 10 seconds later by the Mac box, followed about 20 seconds later still by the Windows machine. Nice.
Even on modern distributions for workstation loading we really do need to get to a login prompt much faster and then startup any services not strictly needed for the user in the background. This is an easy win for Linux, we should just do it in the next release of all the distributions.
How would you like to be the only person more annoying than Usama Bin Laden?
Soul of a woman was created below....
Nor is it that the BIOS is free software--there are other open source BIOS projects that can perform a DOS/Windows boot.
It isn't even that LinuxBIOS is suitable for embedded systems--other free BIOS's will support embedded systems and can perform a DOS/Windows boot.
In any case, there's nothing to stop someone writing a DOS/Windows boot loader and booting it from LinuxBIOS.
The point, surely, is that "LinuxBIOS generally weighs in under 64KB and doesn't waste ROM space with unnecessary functionality. Because it isn't a legacy design, LinuxBIOS starts up fast, even without code optimization."
It really just provides a nice slimmed down boot cycle suitable for embedded systems that do not require the PC BIOS baggage. We're not even talking about manufacturers dropping DOS/Windows compatibility, simply one or two equipment providers considering using LinuxBIOS in situations where compatibility is unnecessary and speed to boot is an important factor.
About all I can say here on that.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Well, if it's "moving like a sleek penguin under arctic ice", it isn't going anywhere, there are no penguins in the Arctic, they are all Antarctic residents. :)
Brett, this is not about hurting Windows, this is all about promoting linux at any cost.
They don't actually CARE about Open Source, just about establishing a NEW default standard *Linux.
When people talk about how *Linux just copied the UNIX API, want to copy the Windows API, or copy program X, you can add copy Microsoft's monopoly position via creating hardware that only runs one OS.
If it was said on slashdot, it MUST be true!
He said it was a good question. His position on it is if it's flashable and programmable, source should be free.
He kind of dodged the question about whether or not his computer BIOS was flashable, free, whatever...
Don't get me wrong, unlike most people, I have a lot of respect for the guy and I don't believe for a second Linux or Open Source would be where it is today without the efforts of him and his team. It's just that there are always little contradictions that trip up even the best of zealots. Like, I wonder if his life is in danger, will he approve of being hooked up to a computer that provides life support but is running non-free software! :-)
The subject line says it all: Code talks; BS walks.
Welcome back!
I was wondering what happened to this troll!
I wonder what this troll will look like in 2003?
Errr, no.
If Linux came preinstalled and fully supported the hardware, what configuration would you need?
This is just plain FUD.
All you need is a screen to configure the networking similar to the configuration that is already done on the nic box. And even a moron can configure the nic box.
Select modem or network card, select if you get your address from DHCP or it is static. Done.
If you need help at that point, I hope you kept the boxes. 'Cause just pack everything up, you are too fucking stupid to own a computer.
>> You already have Linux booting in under a second on your embedded device?
In the article they talk about Linux booting from the hardware in less than a second. And network booting in less than 2 seconds.
All without any optimization to make it go faster.
It would be nice if people could only comment on an article or comments to an article, if they had read that article themselves.
It would save us from a lot of stupid questions.
>> Any services "not strictly needed" should not be started up *at all*.
So, you wouldn't let people start up a web server, or run sshd on their machines to allow secure remote logins? Or let the network initialization happen after the login prompt comes up?
Wow, I bet your distribution of Linux would be the most popular yet. Not!
And that was the most intelligent point you had to make. Kind of sad really.
I'm surprised nobody posted this link yet:
The Linux Bios Homepage
I can see it now... (delicate fade...)
CT: Gee, we're really getting hammered on these duplicate stories.
Timothy: Yeah, we should do a little more checking. Ah, here comes a submission now. Wow, this is cool! It's Linux! It's a BIOS! Post it, Taco!
CT: Hold on pardner, what did we just talk about?
Timothy: Alright, alright, hold on... aww gee, we posted this back in March! Darn it, this is just so cool, too! It's Linux, it's a BIOS, it's LinuxBIOS!
CT: Calm down, Timmy boy. I tell you what we'll do. We'll link to the original story, and justify this one by calling it an update, with new information.
Timothy: Can we really do that, Taco? That would be great!
CT: Sure. This way, we can't get flamed for re-posting an old story, you get to post a cool article, and all our readers can learn about what's new with LinuxBIOS. Everybody wins!
Timothy: Gosh Taco, you're the greatest.
CT: Just doin' my job, just doin' my job.
(Fade back to reality) And that's how this story was posted.
The Slashdot Staff: Editors or Gardners?
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So, if they are not editors, what are they? They are gardeners. Gardeners clean up and put things back in place. The Slashdot staff cleans up troll vomit and crap floods. The gardeners at my old high school was a big horticulture star 'back in the day' but now he is just an old fool that the kids made fun of. He never really got it. He thought he ran the school just because he had the keys to the front door. It is the same with the Slashdot staff, they used to be important, but now they are just old fools who can't even remember what stories they posted just a few days back. The Slashdot staff also believes that they run the site, but it is OSDN that runs the show. The Slashdot staff doesn't see or hear the kids laughing behind their backs.
Please discuss
Slashdot has degenerated to the point where trolls outnumber the regular posters. This is largely due to the fact that none of the workers at slashdot take heed to what can be done to improve it.
Slashdot sucks.
Can LinuxBIOS be made to boot other operating systems as well? I'd really like to boot BeOS (to the desktop, all services started) in 5 seconds flat. Right now the BIOS takes up the majority of the boot time.
That looks very promising, connect to the box via serial on BIOS level, control BIOS settings from the runinng OS, this should turn a PC running Linux in a real server, no need for keyboard/graphic...:-)
No need for something like http://www.realweasel.com/, which has some other limitations.
Nuff said, fast to the download area....
Michael
1. Initialize all the programmable chips so the board can come up and run.
2. A quick self-test to make sure that everything looks like it's basically working.
3. Offer the option of a more extensive self-test to provide some assurance that weird behavior is not a hardware problem.
4. Load a bootstrap loader from *any* I/O device on the board that might be practical. If the board has an Ethernet interface, it must be able to boot from that. If not, then perhaps from a serial port. This is for initial system installation. Normally you'd boot from the disc controller, of course.
5. Not require any equipment that's not permanently attached to the motherboard, i.e., if you don't know you've got a keyboard and a local video display, then use the Ethernet (preferably) or a serial port for operator control. Load the loader unattended if there's no operator present.
6. A remote reset sure would be nice if you could make sure you could keep it out of the hands of the jokers.
With all that and a 100Mbit Ethernet, the admin could reinstall the officially-approved software on the luser's workstation in a few minutes, without getting out of his own chair, and without having to walk the luser through any complicated procedure like finding the reset button and pressing it, let alone finding some special floppy or CD. And not just luser's workstations, servers, too. once the power and the Ethernet are plugged in you'd never have to turn the lights on in the server room again.
It seems to me that any independant effort would be wasted writing a new BIOS-like system. My I suggest implementing IEEE Standard 1275-1994 (aka OpenBOOT). Works on Suns, and Macs, it should work for PCs too!
cfs
Does anyone have any information concerning a realtime linuxBIOS system? I think that the PC platform would make a nice, cheap realtime system and RTlinux would work well but wouldn't provide for quick-booting, industrial strength (vibration resistance) and cheapness (diskless). RTlinuxBIOS? It'd be nice if I could put together a PC system with BIOS-level sensor inputs and digital/analog outputs.
Anyone?
Life is the leading cause of death in America.
Depending on how this is implemented this is most likely once of the worst ideas i've heard recently. The only person/entity that should be developing the BIOS that runs on your motherboard is the manufacturer that made it(or the company they contracted to do the work). If some of you have delusions of flashing your mobo with some level of code a hacker cooked up in his spare time go at it. Just don't whine and complain when your system doesn't boot anymore. Computer systems are a little more complex than twizzling a few bits in a SIO to get it to boot. How do these hackers even begin to know how all the chips are supposed to be configured or even what chips are on the board. How are they supposed to know about all the timing issues or other bugs that were worked around with the "crusty old PCBIOS." I work developing Intel server systems(yes actually designing the logics and laying out the board) and, creating a working BIOS is no trivial task. By the way modern BIOS is not based on DOS.
Give me a break...
Karma Whoring: (Score:4, Informative)
That's funnier than most (Score:5, Funny) I've seen.
1000 SlashDot sigs
... unless you've never been struck by how 'sub-optimal' Linux is when crashing programs disappear out from under your nose with no warning.
Linux reports the problem to disk (not that a core dump is useful), but not to me. Which means in a typical Linux configuration, the user is rated as less important than the disk drive.
I'm sure the disk drive appreciates the attention and eagerly awaits new projects like LinuxBIOS, which hopefully have the same machine-before-user priorities as the OS.
This is one example of why I would sooner run PALM OS on my PC than Linux.
Gaining steam isn't really a good thing
if it's used to describe an upcomping
software project.
Maybe it's taking a last shot at some PR
hype before it's confirmed vapour-ware.
Is there any reason why they could not modify LILO (or GRUB, etc...) so that it could do the init stuff, and then load Linux/BSD/M$-NT?
If this is totally off-beam, that I should point out that all thought I'm a programmer, I've never studied PC raw hardware, so my knowlage of a PC boot process is basically
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity. --- Albert Einstein
The author of the article makes specific mention of IEEE-1275 and makes the point that it is IIRC, defunct. Sounds to me like there is space for an additional system.
Russian Russian Russian RussianDollSig DollSig DollSig DollSig
The code may copy most or all of the boot ROM image to an unshadowed place in RAM and jump to continue executing there, where it can turn off ROM shadowing (or it may get turned off by logic triggered on the first access outside the shadow area) and get access to all of RAM, and then juggle things some more, initializing interrupt vectors, etc., etc.
Well, ROM magically appearing temporarily shadowing RAM is a really old concept for getting the CPU its first instruction.
Imagine instead that everything reset as before, but ROM wasn't on the address/data buses, and all of (uninitialized) RAM was cleanly accessible from the start. What would the CPU do to get its first instruction, and where from? Well, I say the first instruction should be a built-in single microcoded instruction that pulls ROM data serially through a couple of pins and dumps it into low RAM, and then jumps to it. The CPU already knows how to talk to RAM and store strings of bytes there. All that's needed is a new interface to ROM, and serial is quite adequate for moving blocks of data, and it doesn't take many wires. There's enough space on CPU chips these days for a little core to handle a booting instruction like this. And with guaranteed bit-serial access after reset, a ROM chip could be simplified too.
Once this boot image was executing from RAM, things could go pretty much as usual, except that ROMs from various devices would also be accessed via the serial interface pins, using maybe an i/o port to select various ROMs other than the default one used for initial CPU boot (e.g., using card slot number/dev-on-card# or such)
Please log this as prior art, so everyone can benefit from this as free unpatented methodology ;-)
If you state functional requirements, and a dozen brainstorming geeks don't come up with the basic solution concept within an hour, then it should be patentable, but not otherwise.
So I can't burn LinuxBIOS to my BP6 (BX chipset) motherboard and boot Linux in two seconds flat? I'm having a hard time getting information about this project on a level that I can comprehend.
-- Have you ever noticed that at trade shows, Microsoft is always the company that is handing out stress balls?
That would be interesting. There was an article posted earlier this month that said someone had dumped the BIOS on the Xbox, if you could flash it with LinuxBios, you could bypass the MS custom junk in it and turn it into a mini server or something.
I wonder if we'll even invent a RAM-like thing that doesn't loose it's state on power off. Sort of like magnetic core memory but at modern RAM speeds. Oh well, I can dream...
It is true that anybody that makes a motherboard will test that it runs Windows, but that testing is not going to be very complete and there are many machines that are older than the newest versions of MicroSoft software. I can be pretty sure that if somebody loads WinXP on a machine and it fails, they will blame MicroSoft rather than the unusual BIOS chip in their machine.
So why is this?
That wasn't about you, moderators, that was about the chips in the system getting reset.
So now can you read past that, for an idea about a different boot mechanism?