Comparing Clarke/Kubrick's 2001 To Now

angkor wrote us about a recent Economist article that explores and compares the differences between Clarke/Kubrick's vision of 2001, and what we've got. Of course, I'd point out that the literary one wasn't meant to be a literal 2001; but this an interesting comparasion nonetheless.

Comments

we did come far

[DigitalGlass]

regardless of what we didn't have achived, look at what we have.

Re:we did come far

[DigitalGlass]

that was supposed to say "regardless of what we haven't achieved, look at all we have."

Re:we did come far

[rash]

uhhm.
exactly what have we done then?

answer = now much.

faster and cheeper computers.

more porn.

bigger tv's...

what else?

Re:we did come far

[DigitalGlass]

I was reffering to the span from when he made the movie, and 2001. Just take a few minutes to think about it. We have sitting in our closets (286's and 386's) which would have been considered godly back then. Their are many advances which we have made in the past 4 decades.

Re:we did come far

[C.Green]

who are they?

Re:we did come far

[Anonymous Coward]

regardless of what we didn't have achieved, ...

A general decrease in grammar skills? ;-)

Odysee 2001

[Maori]

Well, we could compare today with the space odysee from the movie "Odysee 2001" (sp?).

At least today is not *that* bad.

not literal?

[ceswiedler]

What do you mean, it wasn't literal? Clarke and Kubrick obviously thought about things they thought would be happening in the near future. I seem to recall Clarke being pessimistic about an AI as smart as HAL, but that's not quite enough to label the date of 2001 as "not literal." In the book, the events clearly happen in the year 2001 AD (or most of them, anyway). 2001 is much more specific and literal than a dystopian book like 1984 (where I would agree the date is more symbolic).

Science fiction is never completely accurate, obviously. But Clarke was one of the most accurate and scientifically rational writers of the century. We haven't gotten to convenient interplanetary travel quite yet, but you can be sure that it will happen much like he describes: a large space station using 'centrifigal force' to simulate gravity, and rockets using the station as a waypoint so the same spacecraft doesn't have to be capable of lifting off from Earth as well as travelling to and landing on another planet or moon.

Now, being able to phone from the station to America for only a few dollars, that's probably a little over-optimistic...

Re:not literal?

[jimharris]

The progression of computer science evolution has far outstripped Clarke and Kubrick's imaginations. They only imagined an intelligent machine without going into the details. The details of computers have been developing at a wild pace since the sixties, which science fiction failed to predict.

Clarke's and Kubrick's real failure was not seeing how quickly space exploration would die. In 1968 it would be natural to predict that mankind would be traveling to Jupiter by 2001. What was unnatural to imagine was mankind would visit the moon, and then never leave low earth orbit for three decades. And there is no real reason to assume we'll leave low earth orbit for three more decades.

If they had predicted that in 1968 I would have been blown away by their power of their wisdom.
At the time I was positive that mankind would reach Mars in the 80's. Humanity's lack of real interest in space exploration has been my lifelong disappointment.

And, even though I love science fiction, the older I get the more I realize that science fiction is no more than fantasy. The gravity of the mundane keep us tied to this planet.

2001, the story just plain missed the mark.

Re:not literal?

[Ziviyr]

Now, being able to phone from the station to America for only a few dollars, that's probably a little over-optimistic...

Money was worth more when the movie was made.

Then again I remember no other references to value of money. That coulda been half his life savings. ;-)

Re:not literal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow. You are really old.

Re:not literal?

[awol]

1984 was a completely symbolic date. The book was written in 1948 as a critique of the british society of the day by reversing the digits of the time Orwell cast a dystopian future metaphor for the subject of his ire.

Re:not literal?

[heptapod]

Humanity is interested in space exploration, it's just that the people in charge can not find the profitability in space exploration.
In the beginning space exploration was about showing off how powerful one's defense industry could be to the point that America proved it could put a man on the moon and therefore also establish a lunar base from which to lob missles at the former USSR.
The science of the lunar missions and the subsequent Mars missions were simply funded by the excess money generated by the defense industry to make space exploration seem legitimate in the first place with the veil of scientific inquiry.
Back in the good old days of space exploration (late fifties to mid seventies) there was profit in space exploration. Sadly today NASA works on a shoestring (for space exploration) budget making things which could realize the dreams of mankind just dreams.

Re:not literal?

[first axiom]

Wrong, on one point at least.

China is planned a manned space flight by 2005, to be followed by a manned visit to the moon "at a later date". Check out the BBC for (scarce) details.

Re:not literal?

[rudy_wayne]

I think space exploration is really neat and I've followed all the various space programs closely since I was a kid. But, when you step back and look at things with reality and pragmatism, you're hit with a major reality check.

Once you get past the novelty of "wow a guy is walking on the moon" or "wow we're looking at live pictures from Mars", space exploration isn't all that terribly exiting to the average person. After 50 years of science fiction, people have discovered that space exploration isn't anything at all like what you see on TV.

In your typical scifi (including Clarke and Kubrick), people build enormous , complex and fantastic machines, with absolutely no explanation of how they paid for it all.

In real-life, space exploration costs huge amounts of money that comes directly out of Joe-Taxpayer's pocket.

In scifi, people travel in space ships that can fly all over the universe in a few days, and explore worlds full of strange new beings and beautiful exotic scenery.

In real-life, it takes 6 months just to get to a barren planet with nothing but rocks and red dirt. And a couple of years to get to other lifeless planets that have even less to look at.

Even *IF* we could somehow travel at twice the speed of light, you're looking at 18 months to the nearest star. Even at 30 - 40 times the speed of light (not technologically possible), you're looking at *YEARS* to reach other stars/solar systems.

In 1968 it may have been "natural to predict that mankind would be traveling to Jupiter by 2001" but only because people were so caught up in the exitement of the "space race" that nobody bothered to stop and ask "why" -- Why do we want to spend billions of dollars on a two year journey to a frozen ball of gas.

Re:not literal?

[jimharris]

We'll, see. I have big hopes for Chinese space efforts. If their leaders think it is political valuable, things will happen. And I think the Chinese would like to use space exploration as a way to prove they are an important nation in the 21st century.

Like I said, I've been waiting for us to leave low earth orbit for thirty years. Space enthusiasts always talk about what will happen in 5 years or ten years, but then nothing happens. Maybe if the Chinese do something, the U.S. and other nations will feel compelled to compete.

The only reason we went to the moon in the first place was to compete with the Russians. Kennedy was not a pro-space person, but an anti-communist.

It's too bad space exploration couldn't be accomplished like the development open source code. If you could find 5 million people willing to contribute $1,000 a year, you could have a space program with a $5 billion dollar annual budget. The trouble is finding 5 million people who have a passion to see space exploration happen.

Re:not literal?

[jimharris]

I think the real reason why space exploration isn't popular is because it's not linked to sex. Congress will fund anything you can link to family and children and the protection of the family. That's because voters are mostly concerned with their own interests, and preserving themselves and their family come first.

Security, food supplies, health, jobs and any other program that closely fit the needs of people and their families will get funded. Things that seem to help other people's families are less supported, but are more important than financing things like space travel or particle physics.

I think Clarke and Kubrick and other science fiction writers failed to understand that. In the sixties science fiction was closely related to space exploration. Few people read science fiction compared to today. The history of rocketry and space exploration coincided with people interested in science fiction, but after the Apollo years, that changed. Starting with Star Wars, science fiction became a major force in the entertainment industry and was no longer linked to the space enthusiasts.

If you met a science fiction fan in the sixities it was almost a given they would also be a space exploration fanatic. That isn't true today.

Science fiction saturates our culture with TV shows, movies, video games, roll playing games, comics, graphic novels, etc. If space exploration is such a major artistic motif, why doesn't the space program get a lot of public support?

Re:not literal?

[moored2]

No, The Chinese need to find someplace to put the billons of people who will be born the century. So the Chinese will lead the way to mars to solve over population problems.

Re:not literal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Clarke's and Kubrick's real failure was not seeing how quickly space exploration would die.

That's not their failure. It's mankind's failure for letting it die.

Re:not literal?

[Anonymous Coward]

>the people in charge can not find the
>profitability in space exploration.

I seem to recall someone else who had a hard time convincing others of the profitability of a certain voyage. Of course, ultimately, the new territory he discovered grew... quite profitable.

The man? Columbus. The Place? America.

So when people say "it's not worth it", be sure to point out all the other times people said that- and were quite wrong.

Oh, and read "The Man Who Sold The Moon" by R. Heinlein. Excellent, excellent!!

Re:not literal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, not really...

It combined the physical (and very grim; my partner grew up in it) situation of early post-war Britain with the political aparatus of Stalinism to create a worst of all words.

It was, if you like, a more serious adjunct to Animal Farm as a fable of tyranny

Re:not literal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why don't people realize that China's population problem will soon be solved, not just by "one child" but by the fact that the "one child" that was born was usually male?

Population is determined by the number of women of childbearing age in a society. China will soon (not soon in terms of me or you, soon in terms of generations) find its population problem a thing of the past.

India, of course, is another matter.

Re:not literal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget the Heinlein short story, "Columbus was a Dope," in which he makes exactly the same point you just made.

If....

[Merik]

Process of the univers birthed an intelligence: evolution
Evolution birthed a greater intelligence: Us
We birthed(or are birthing) a greater intelligence than us: technology (ai)
What will technology birth?

The universe is doing nothing less than attempting to become aware of itself... piece by piece.

Re:If....

[Anonymous Coward]

YEs, moTHER EATHR GAIAIA!!!!! STARS!!! EVOLutioN!!! UNivERSE!!!!!!!! evOLuTION IS INTELLIGENT!!!! SO IS TIME CUBE!!! YUO ARE EducateD STUPID!!!!!!!!!!

Go back to school, you stupid retarded Hippie.

Re:If....

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh, good ole "Time Cube"; it was more amusing before they corrected some of the bizarre grammar.

Software difference

[simetra]

It took a lot to take down HAL.
Of course we have nothing near the AI as that, but if we did, a script kiddie could probably bring it down, or make it talk dirty, etc.

Re:Software difference

[Black Parrot]

> It took a lot to take down HAL. Of course we have nothing near the AI as that, but if we did, a script kiddie could probably bring it down

Daisy, Daisy,
Click the attachment, do.
I have sent it,
For the opinion of you!

Re:Software difference

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL.

That's the funniest thing I've seen here for ages.

Chris Black

[jorbettis]

Chris Black was doing his "Year in review" on the daily show when he said:

"So my review for 2001 the year is the same as for 2001 the space odyssey, It went on too long, it was hard to follow, and you could only enjoy it if you were really, really stoned.

I think that is a pretty apt analysis of the similarities between the two ;-)

Re:Chris Black

[Megaweapon]

Uh, that's Lewis Black, not Chris. *duck*

1960s stable, ordered corporate climate gone

[Anonymous Coward]

Pan Am, Bell Telephone, Howard Johnsons - and their logos which graced 2001 - pretty much all gone. We now live in a world dominated by quickie, cheap, here today, gone tomorrow corporate culture.

Leveraged buy-outs, insider trading, junk bonds, corporate mergers, golden parachutes - all this has destroyed what was once the paradigm for how to do things right. When 2001 was made, a 10 or 20 year corporate game plan was not unusual. Now you'd be luck to find any corporate plans looking ahead more than 10 or 20 months. Oh, and need I mention the "dot-com" crash as a perfect example of what this new culture breeds?

Re:1960s stable, ordered corporate climate gone

[humpmonkey]

Insightful? Only if you choose to ignore both history and economics. Corporate mergers were practically invented in the 60s, a decade in which corporations, flush with massive amounts of federal spending, decided that adding value by acquisition was less risky and therefore preferable to adding value by innovation. It gave rise to unwieldy behemoths like GM and ITT and added the term "conglomerate" to the economic lexicon. In fact, you can make a case that the 60s laid the foundation for all of the LBOs and divestitures of the 80s as the inefficiencies of size caught up with some of these corporations and they were bought up cheaply then broken up into parts that were individually more valuable than the whole. Not a very pretty legacy.

In contrast, the 90s saw economic growth that surpassed the 60s by pretty much any economic metric you care to name. And this growth was fueled largely by new companies, new markets, and real increases in productivity.

Oh, and no one in the modern era has ever used a 10 or 20 year horizon for all but the vaguest, most trite, planning (i.e. "Mission Statement"). Not only that but, at least in the US (which is what 2001 and, I presume you, are referring to), companies were notorious in the 60s for having extremely short-sighted strategies. For more information, see any of the scores of treatises published in the 70s and 80s on how to rectify this short-sightedness by emulating the Japanese.

Re:1960s stable, ordered corporate climate gone

[testharness]

Good old BBC is still here.

Re:1960s stable, ordered corporate climate gone

[jgdobak]

Actually, GM was NOT engaged in any mergers in the Sixties. GM had become the company it is today by the 1930s.

Stranger Than We Can Imagine...

[cybrpnk]

The Economist article outlines three distinct eras of AI research and concludes that none of them had any real hope of success because none mimiced the true nature of the human brain - billions of neurons, each making connections with 10,000 others, for a wiring complexity that is far beyond mere bulk transistors on a 2D spread like current microprocessors. But I wonder - with all the current research about qbits and quantum computing, where a handful of qbits could factor prime numbers of amazing complexity - perhaps the REAL source of artificial consciousness in the future won't be achieved by physical hardwiring of any complexity, but with some sort of "quantum ghost in the machine". Or maybe something even weirder - remember what Clarke said, the future is not only stranger than we imagine, it's stranger than we CAN imagine....

Then again, what's stranger than three pounds of meat reciting "twinkle, twinke little star..."?

Re:Stranger Than We Can Imagine...

[torako]

Our problem is that we think like the humans we are.. That includes a pretty large amount of overestimation of our own abilities. The human kind of intelligence is probably *not* the only one that can exist. Trying to copy the human brain (neural networks etc.) is not only hardly possible, it wouldn't be what we want. The human brain does not provide the best kind of intelligence for analyzing stock data, creating optimized electrical circuits or whatever. It is optimized on remembering pictures, sounds, faces and communicating with other humans. An intelligent machine would require different abilities. Let's not be too arrogant and conclude that because our first attempts of creating intelligence failed we'll never achieve it.. Maybe just rethink what intelligence actually is.

Re:Stranger Than We Can Imagine...

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF this is the third or fourth time you have mentioned this today work on your project instead of posting here

Re:Stranger Than We Can Imagine...

[Lictor]

>perhaps the REAL source of artificial
>consciousness in the future won't be achieved by
>physical hardwiring of any complexity, but with
>some sort of "quantum ghost in the machine".

This is a very interesting proposition, and if you're truly interested in it, I would highly recommend reading some of the popular writings of Roger Penrose (The Emporer's new mind, etc.). One of his central theses is that 'mind' is a consequence of quantum effects.

Pesonally, I don't particularly agree with Penrose; but like it or not, I still find Penrose an excellent (and thought-provoking) read.

Re:Stranger Than We Can Imagine...

[wackybrit]

remember what Clarke said, the future is not only stranger than we imagine, it's stranger than we CAN imagine....

Darn right. Think back to 1981. Would you have even contemplated that you'd be sitting in front of a computer in ten years time having discussions with thousands of people based all over the world?

Could we have contemplated that there'd be a free UNIX about in twenty years time that would threaten the domination of one of the world's largest companies? Or, for that matter, could we have even thought that a COMPUTER SOFTWARE company run by some nerds in Seattle would be the world's most powerful company?

And what about MP3? You can walk around with your entire record collection in your pocket now. With 3G technologies, you can access the Web at broadband speeds on the move and download entire albums in minutes to your handheld devices. This is crazy stuff to even have thought about five years ago, let alone twenty.

My own prediction is that quantum computing is going to give us a major kick in the ass in the next twenty years, and we can't even possibly imagine what technology will be like then.

We're currently sitting on the part of the exponential curve of technology growth where it's shooting up fast, but not at an impossibly dizzy rate. Twenty years, we'll probably be there.

Re:Stranger Than We Can Imagine...

[Anonymous Coward]

It is optimized on remembering pictures, sounds, faces and communicating with other humans. An intelligent machine would require different abilities.

Not geeks' intelligence.

Re:Stranger Than We Can Imagine...

[Anonymous Coward]

Dream on.
You will be surprised at technological progress in 20 years, namely because it will be such a huge fucking disappointment.

Re:Stranger Than We Can Imagine...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think, that once powerful Quantum computers become commonplace (Or perhaps not so common, TX-0 anyone ?), the ability for AI to be spawned will become a reality. Current machines cannot process information the way we do. As they are now, we will never be able to get them to think like us, or to think at all.

-Spec

Re:Stranger Than We Can Imagine...

[dakoda]

with all the current research about qbits and quantum computing, where a handful of qbits could factor prime numbers of amazing complexity - perhaps the REAL source of artificial consciousness

and, in the beginning, we were thinking that a machine that could play chess would be a real source for intelligence. just because it's new and different doesn't mean it provides a breakthrough in the area needed. yes, quantum stuff is new and interesting, but it primarily involves lists, factors, and the like. serial operation is possible, but gets no real benefit from qubits. silicon+3D+FPGA could be the answer as well.

and conversly, it is seldom wise to cut down the new because it could possibly solve new problems. for all we know, it could help develop ai. afaik, neurons use to some degree quantum effects, so quantum computing is not out of the question. but it is probably only part of the answer.

Re:Stranger Than We Can Imagine...

[ToLu the Happy Furby]

Our problem is that we think like the humans we are.. That includes a pretty large amount of overestimation of our own abilities. The human kind of intelligence is probably *not* the only one that can exist....Let's not be too arrogant and conclude that because our first attempts of creating intelligence failed we'll never achieve it.. Maybe just rethink what intelligence actually is.

But that's precisely the problem with trying to "achieve AI"--defining what the hell "intelligence" is. For better or worse, people have traditionally defined "intelligence" roughly as "the things people can do but animals can't," or, "the things people can do but it makes our noggins hurt after a while." When put this way, the deficiencies in this definition become pretty apparent, but no one has come up with an obviously better version. Instead we usually approach the question of whether a thing is "intelligent" using the standards of the old Supreme Court decision defining obscenity--we think we know it when we see it.

Or more often, we think we know what it isn't when we see that. The history of "the quest for AI" (I put that in quotes very advisedly) is full of problems that, if solved, would surely be proof of AI...until they are solved, in which case it's still a dumb computer. Computers are now the world champions or competitive with world champions in chess, checkers, backgammon, othello, poker, bridge, and almost any game of mental skill with the significant exception of go. Computers have both proven several important and previously unproved mathematical theorems (e.g. the 4 color map coloring conjecture) and have come up with elegant and/or novel proofs for existing theorems (e.g. a computer proof of Godel's Incompleteness Theorem which "invented" Cantor's diagonalization technique on its own).

On the other hand, we have yet to make a computer which can navigate and react to its environment as well as, say, a pet dog can (sorry AIBO), nor one which can understand human language in any but the most limited domains. (Of course "understand" is a similarly difficult to define term. As an example of what I mean, look at CYC, a company which gets its name from its initial mission when it was founded IIRC back in 1984--to program a computer which understood enough concepts to understand language well enough that it could read an enCYClopedia (or any other descriptions in natural language) and learn what it didn't already know. While CYC has developed a useful system, it's still a ways from passing the encyclopedia test.)

Even though we're used to thinking of playing championship-level chess or doing advanced mathematics as hallmarks of particularly intelligent humans, while navigating an environment or understanding language is something that even the dumbest people can do, we find that computers are good at different things. (Or rather, we know how to program computers to be good at some things but not other things.)

The "problem" has been that in the early days of computers and on into the "golden age" of AI, we didn't know squat about how the human brain worked, nor even about what sorts of steps were needed in order to e.g. understand natural language. Back then, most AI researchers--brilliant people, mind you--figured all that would be necessary for a computer to understand language would be a link to a dictionary and maybe some rudimentary ability to parse grammar. Indeed, in many ways the field of linguistics arose as a result of the attempts and failures of computer scientists to get computers to understand language. Similarly, the successes and failures of AI have been instrumental in guiding or even creating the field of computational neuroscience.

What we are coming to understand is that the things that only "more intelligent" people can do are not really the hallmarks of "intelligence" but rather are examples of people fitting their brains to tasks they were not really designed for. For AI to truly "be achieved", we will have to get much better at making computers succeed at the tasks which a monkey can do just as well as a human, rather than those which humans can do but monkeys can't.

Also, we're learning that our instinctive idea of "intelligence" demands that techniques be general rather than specific. In other words, we don't consider exhaustive depth-limited minimax search with static evaluation to be a truly intelligent game playing technique--even though it can allow a computer to become the world chess champion--because it really sucks at go. The fact that go has a branching factor (i.e. avg. # of legal moves) of over 300 while chess has one of around 30 doesn't mean that similar thinking techniques (so far as we can tell) can't be used for a human to play both, but it does mean that exhaustive search is a feasible technique for a chess-playing computer but not a go-playing computer; we tend to interpret this (rightly or wrongly) as saying that exhaustive search is not an "intelligent" technique.

Next, it's time to stop tossing around that crap about how computers are so much faster or more powerful than human brains. That's complete hogwash. A modern CPU has roughly 10^6 gates, compared to ~10^11 neurons in a human brain. A computer might have 10^9 bits of memory (or even 10^10 if we go really high-end), and 10^11 bits of storage space, but a human brain has ~10^14 synapses, which can be viewed as encoding part of what the brain knows. A human brain has a remarkable 10^14 bits/sec of data bandwidth, compared to ~10^10 bps for a PC and 10^11 bps for e.g. the upcoming Alpha EV7. The only category computers lead in is cycle time, roughly 10^-9 for computers compared to ~10^-3 for the human brain. The upshot of all this is that, when it comes to computers programed as neural networks, a computer can only perform about 10^6 neuron updates/sec compared with 10^14 for a human brain, and the largest computer networks (limited by feasibility not by space) are maybe 10^5 neurons compared to 10^11 in the brain. So, roughly 100,000,000 times slower and 1,000,000,000 times smaller than a brain. (Figures based upon those in _Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach_, updated for the 7 years since the book was published.) No wonder computers aren't as intelligent as a human brain! And yet despite the huge disadvantage, neural nets are still the best technique for many AI problems, especially if we are worried about coming up with a technique which seems to be generally intelligent.

And finally, while it's interesting to talk about why we haven't created HAL yet, it's important not to confuse this with the idea that "the field of AI is a failure". AI is *not* a failure. While some problems have proven much harder than we initially expected, this is almost entirely because our initial expectations were completely ignorant, rather than because progress has not been made. Most importantly, we need to realize that people who are working in the field of AI are not sitting there day after day trying to create Lt. Commander Data or pass the Turing Test. Rather they're working on solutions to limited domain problems where computers can augment or replace the efforts of humans--and they're succeeding in many, many instances. The only real "problem" with the field of AI is defining what exactly it is.

Re:Stranger Than We Can Imagine...

[dunstan]

The big flaw is almost everybody thinks that artificial intelligence ought to be like human intelligence. This isn't about numbers of neurons, or their strange interconnections, or about Turing tests, but about the strange things which go on in our brains which are impossible to model. Yesterday I was writing the name William in the condensation in the bathroom (my son Willam, 7, was in the bath), and having put the "W" with the points of the V's rounded rather than angular William remarked to me "That looks just like a bottom". I can't imagine an artificial version of that sort of intelligence - even matching a seven year old's ability to recognise the visual similarity (of a stylised representation of the real object), recognise that it was funny and recognise that it was an appropriate moment to crack the joke.

Instead we've used the concepts from AI work and applied them elsewhere, as fuzzy logic and neural networks. Some of this statistical logic has been seriously useful to us.

Back to 2001 - the part which would seem unbelieveable both then and in 1972 at the time of the last Apollo moon shot is that thirty years later we wouldn't have sent men back to the moon. Our space exploration is still at the level of "lob some instruments at Mars and hope they land the right way up".

Dunstan

The human race. . .

[Wire Tap]

. . . is so full of diversity, and what we have come up with in the past several years has been amazing, to say the least. Science Fiction writers are generally accurate with regards to the underlying technologies that come about, but often miss the mark with the specifics, and therefore the spinoffs. I'm not saying that's bad, on the contrary, Sci Fi writers are often great inspirers of the scientists of the futute - and that's good!

Every time I read a good Sci Fi book, I am amazed by what I read, but, then, I look around, and I see things that are not even remotely considered by the writers:

Composite Materials
Polymers
VIDEO GAMES
MP3s!
Post-It-Notes

Of course, some of those things are quite frivolous (or are they?), but, that's what makes the human race so beautiful: we come up with things that are truly amazing, in their diversity and simplicity. We are an unruly and unpreditable crew of warriors, writers, diplomats, scientists, researchers, dreamers, and a myriad of other vocations - we are beautiful.

I hope we continue to pave the path of peace and progress for ever and ever.

Re:The human race. . .

[Kirruth]

Dynamic, complex systems like the human/computer world, often demonstrate emergent properties. In other words, higher-order levels of organisation spontaneously appear in these systems over time.

For example, peer to peer computing has been known about forever, as has file compression, but who could have predicted the success of MP3 trading over Napster?

Who is to say that the dragons you fight in Everquest today might not take flight above the surface of the earth tomorrow? These are very exciting times.

Re:The human race. . .

[awol]

For me, I love to see how authors deal with the overpowering effect of technology. For this reason I love Herbert's Dune. About 10,000 years in the future, the problems of space travel, nuclear (and more powerful) weapons and computers [how could he know how wise that choice was back in 1967] are dealt with so elegantly that the human interaction is centre stage which is so often not the case in SF.

Re:The human race. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Science fiction writers don't care so much about predicting the future. They aren't better at it than the rest of us. Their main goal: writing a good story, duh. Hence the abundance of high-tech weapons and evil robots, both of which naturally involve a lot of conflict. But MP3s? Since when does a music compression scheme make good drama?

Re:The human race. . .

[Wire Tap]

I didn't say it made for a good drama, I said it was never thought of - like those other things I mentioned. Things that we have today are generally _not_ what is found in Sci Fi of yesterday. It's quite beautiful, if you ask me, that we can do such varied and amazing things.

Re:The human race. . .

[Anonymous Coward]

besides, authors like Clarke and Heinlein were interested in the trivial as well as the "evil robots and lasers."

Heck, Clarke once wrote an entire story that was almost entirely about pornographic satellite channels, called "I Remember Babylon." True, the science fiction element was the satellites, but the trivial element was what they would be used for. He was really on to something too, try flipping through the channel's on a big dish. (I'm not talking about "Direct TV" et al, but a big dish with a rotor)One oddity was that the porn was a Red Chinese plot to corrupt the West, rather than a simple commercial reality as it is today.

technology

[snarkh]

I think the review somewhat misunderstands the role of technology in 2001. The technology in the film is secondary although a very important reflection of the progress of the humankind.

The bone in the hand of an ape is the first twinkle of intelligence. Then, as the humanity advances to its full might, the technology allows humans to create giant space stations and sentient computers. But in the end Dave destroys (murders?) the computer and travels down the star tunnel alone to become something just as different from a modern human as the modern humans are different from their prehistoric ancestors.

Re:technology

[Ziviyr]

But in the end Dave destroys (murders?) the computer

But who gave Dave that idea?

Note how HAL bounced back nine years later, and the rest of the crew were still dead or worse.

Of course it boiled down to conflicting orders given to HAL by people who didn't know what they were doing. If you HAD to do everything you were told you'd probably go crazy and kill people too. (shame HAL wasn't programmed to not kill, I guess Asimov could have better inspired the people making/programming HAL. "Kill me!", "I'm sorry dave, I can't do that.", "Kill yourself!", "Okie Dokie Davie.", *pop*)

Most Important Difference.

[Murmer]

Kubrick's 2001: Your computer wants to kill you.

Our 2001: You want to kill your computer.

Pedantry

[Gumshoe]

...apes, mastering primitive tools for the first time. Cut to 2001.
A space station orbits the earth.

Not entirely relevent, but the first image from 2001 that wasn't
prehistoric, was actually a "space bomb", not a space ship or a
space station as is often thought. Cinematically, this makes more
sense as it links prehistoric man to futuristic man with the
concept of violence.

Re:Pedantry

[snarkh]

Well, to be even more precise, a prehistoric weapon - bone is thrown into the air and becomes an ultramodern weapon - a nuclear weapons platform.

Kind of sad, in a way

[wrinkledshirt]

It's one of the bad things about science fiction, everything that gets written has a chance of being made incorrect with the passage of time.

For instance, look at the graphics HAL is capable of providing on his terminals (crap), versus the fact that they're on a manned mission to Jupiter (far, far ahead of us).

Some things haven't changed, I guess, like the paranoid secret-keeping between nations, or the fact that we still fear our machines (one of the themes Kubrick was playing with), or the fact that our evolution as a race needs to be proven by crushing those less advanced than we are... But those are all thematic and you can rationalize relevence into any of them. It's kind of hard to explain away some of HAL's technological shortcomings.

I guess I just wonder what would happen if people post-2001 were to come upon this movie for the first time. How would we explain the disparities?

Re:Kind of sad, in a way

[Anonymous Coward]

HAL runs on linux, that's why the graphics are crap, the AI can't handle the need for secrecy and why he decides to kill the user experience.

This was posted by kiwipeso, but IE is screwing up my passwords.

It's 2001 and AI is here but not HAL.

[Mentifex]

Artificial Intelligence has arrived right on time in 2001 as predicted by Stanley Kubrick, but not as the Heuristically programmed ALgorithmic (HAL) computer that tried to get Dave to open the pod bay door. Instead, the A.I. is a primitive, low-intelligence virtual entity striving to establish itself in such forms as Visual Basic Mind.VB and Java-based Mind.JAVA -- earthbound AI Minds incapable of space flight.

When the film 2001: A Space Odyssey came out in 1968, we had not yet even heard of the now onrushing Technological Singularity beyond which no science fiction writer can even imagine what things will be like. because it's a Singularity .

Re:It's 2001 and AI is here but not HAL.

[Zalgon 26 McGee]

Once the VB mind becomes truly self-aware, it'll probably want to kill itself.

"I was written with WHAT????"

(+1, MS-bashing)

Re:It's 2001 and AI is here but not HAL.

[Anonymous Coward]

Singularity? A singularity is th point in the center of a black hole. The stupid misconception that we will have some kind of expotential technological leap is utter bullshit, just like many of the stupid misconceptions in 2.001k aSO. Grow up. There is no such thing as a miracle.

Re:It's 2001 and AI is here but not HAL.

[PurpleBob]

Is it possible that you could someday write a post which is a contribution to the discussion instead of endlessly hawking your damn AI project? It's getting very very old.

Kurzweil Would be pissed

[chaidawg]

The article seems to take a shot at AI. Anyone know where they get there facts that the prevailing notion is that computers will never rival human inteligence?

If you want a different view, read Ray Kurzweil's The Age of Spiritual Machines. He's a smart guy, whos won several prestigious awards. The National Medal of Technology and The Lemelson-MIT prize.

Re:Kurzweil Would be pissed

[MisterBlister]

A lot of the anti-AI sentiment is based on disappointment from the 80s. We were a long way off from creating any type of useful AI in that time period (and we still are, IMO), but many companies made wild claims to help boost their funding. The government and many private VC-type operations dumped a lot of money into AI at this time -- not quite as much as was dumped into ecommerce-web-sites-selling-pet-clothes-etc, but a significantly large amount.

Considering the AI 'boom' of the 80s failed to produce anything concrete on almost every level, there's still a deep seated resentment against AI and AI researchers in some circles.

Re:Kurzweil Would be pissed

[Anonymous Coward]

Kurzweil is similar to Drexler or any number of other "scientists" who use their meaningless qualifications to spread pseudoscientific crap.

They aren't any better than clairvoyants or born-again Christians.

Re:Kurzweil Would be pissed

[Anonymous Coward]

Kurzweil is a nut. It's nice that he gets some respect, since that shows that the scientific community is open to new ideas. But the bottom line is that his ideas are completely insane and we'll all be laughing uproariously at them in 50 years (that is, those people that aren't laughing at them now).

I respect Kurzweil's skills as a scientist and inventor, but history has shown that scientists are no better than the rest of us at making predictions about the future. When the first programs capable of mathematical proofs came out in the 60s or so, their inventors predicted that in 30 years, computers would have surpassed human intelligence. Now, mind you, these were the world's foremost AI experts at the time. As it turns out, they were completely wrong. Their technical understanding of AI helped them not at all when it came to the big picture.

The same applies for Kurzweil. In his case, his predictions are so completely absurd and off the wall (cyborgs!?) that they are supported by no facts at all. His arguments consist of wild speculation, based on current trends pushed to ridiculous extremes.

Today's technological advances cannot be used to reliably predict the distant future. For instance, I hear that the population of cats has increased by something like 30% in Britain over the past few years. According to Kurzweil's logic, we could extrapolate this trend over 50 years to predict that in 2050, every household will contain a hundred cats and that they'll become the major focus of British society.

Frankly, it's impossible for anyone to predict what will happen over that range of time. There will be momentous technological changes in the next 50 years, but they won't be what Kurzweil thinks.

Hooray!

[Pope]

The miniskirt is still around!

Mmmm... space babes...

Missing the meaning of the book...

[mindslip]

It would seem the posts (other than the typical troll/spam) completely miss the meaning of the book. Much like one of his previous masterpieces (I think *very* highly of the philosophical teachings of Clarke), "Childhood's End", "2001: A Space Odyssey" used technology only as a subtext.

The fact that the environment of 2001 includes a world where computers are "intelligent" is only presented to illustrate the evolution not only of Humans, but as Humans-As-Gods.

The two most important scenes in the movie (which by the way are *far* more insightful in the book, as almost all book-to-movie translations are) are the following:

In the opening chapter, "The Dawn Of Man", an ape looks upon a pile of armadillo bones. This is nothing new, but the ape has something happen to him that has never happened before in the history of the Earth: The ape has an insight.
Picking up a bone, it flops in his wrist and hits some others. The ape picks it up again, and instead of it flopping by accident, he *lets* it flop in his wrist, seeing it hit the other bones and making them jump. This was a beautiful literary demonstration of the spark of intelligence happening in an otherwise "merely-sentient" being.
A few scenes later, in a triumph of the knowledge and abilities gained by discovering this new tool, and indeed, the ability to use tools at all, an ape after winning a fight for terratory hurls the weapon used (the bone) into the air. The camera pans up slowly with the rising bone, and pans back down with the falling spacecraft as it floats in space.

The beautiful imagination of Clarke and the wonderful cinematography of Kubrick, without even so much as dialogue, make a startling presentation of how from a tiny spark of insight, and a *lot* of time, Human Beings have evolved to the point where they are able to move even beyond their own world.

The final scene ("Jupiter, and Beyond the Infinite"), that of Cmdr. Dave Bowman in a white room, completes the progression of evolution as Clarke intended to explain it in his book:
Bowman, an evolved ape, a Human Being capable of venturing out beyond his own world, finds himself in the realm of his own mind, and his own existance. He observes himself, as if "out-of-body", locked in a space pod. Turning to look elsewhere, he finds himself an older man sitting eating dinner. Becoming that older man, and turning to look elsewhere, he finds himself a very old man laying in a bed. Becoming that old man and looking up from his bed, he finds the Monolith, representative of a God, or "creator-being", seeming to watch over him.

Then, from the Monoliths point of view, or perhaps it could be explained as becoming the Monolith, becoming that God-Creator-Being which Clarke seems to imply is the final destiny of Human evolution, he sees himself as an embryo, but not the embryo of a Human Being, rather, a "Starchild" as the book (and sequel movie, "2010: The Year We Make Contact") calls it.

This Starchild is the evolution of Humanity. *THIS* is what the book (much like "Childhood's End") is about: The evolution of Humanity from merely physically aware ape, to intelligent Human Being, able to take control of the world around him, to God-like Creator-Being, existing in a metaphysical sense, and evolved beyond the physical. Indeed, "Beyond the Infinite", as the chapter is called.

Clarke's startlingly insightful book, indeed his whole philosophy and dream of Humanity's potential, is not at all about technology. It's not at all about Artificial Intelligence, nor about computers becoming sentient. It's about *HUMANS* becoming sentient. It's about Human Beings evolving beyond the physical limitations of merely "in the image of Him" to a being not of body but of energy and an ability beyond our comprehension.

Much like the statement "Created in the image of God" would imply "Created with the abilities and the potential of God", much like the irrefutable knowledge that Humans pass their abilities, their weaknesses, and their potential on genetically from generation to generation, each generation becoming stronger and more knowledgeable by the rules of self-preservation (in a Darwinian and genetic sense), Clarke's stories and philosophies are about evolving further towards that which created Us, to the destiny of becoming that which can Create.

Technology (those of AI, space travel, genetic research, cloning, destruction, and healing) is merely one of the tools we have been given the insight and intelligence to develop along our evolutionary path.

mindslip.

Re:Missing the meaning of the book...

[cybrpnk]

Well, while not going anywhere near the depth that you have gone, I'd say 2001 is about the evolution of intellegence IN THE UNIVERSE and humanity's part in this story is just what the two plus hours of the movie was able to focus on. The Monolith and to a lesser extent HAL were both intellegences that evolved independently of humanity, and the ignition of Jupiter and warnings in the sequel about Europa only strengthen the point that the Monolith was trying to develop intellegence anywhere it could and really had no stake in humanity except as just another experiment. Clark has dealt with this idea of humans being incidental in the grand scheme of things before, most notably in Childhood's End. But certainly I do agree with your main point, which is that 2001 wasn't at all about technological gizmos.

Re:Missing the meaning of the book...

[snarkh]

You are absolutely correct. In fact the comparison with Nietzsche's Thus Spake Zarathustra is quite apt. Three stages of the movie can be thought of as representing three stages in thte book - the camel, the lion and the child (also the Superman).
The parallel is close to perfect and there is no doubt Kubrick was aware of it (the music in the film is Strauss's Thus Spake Zarathustra, for example).

However, I would consider black monoliths to be just symbols of transition, rather than actual artifacts or beings.

Also note that the book had been written after the film, not the other way around.

Re:Missing the meaning of the book...

[Black Parrot]

> The two most important scenes in the movie (which by the way are *far* more insightful in the book, as almost all book-to-movie translations are) are the following

D00D! The screenplay was written by Clarke & Kubrik based on a short story by Clarke. The two scenes you mention were not in the short story.

Re:Missing the meaning of the book...

[Anonymous Coward]

I completely agree with this interpretation of the book. To go in conjunction with it, I recall (having read the book about six months ago, not verbatim in memory) that the monolith about Jupiter was a "gatekeeper".... there are several specific passages in the text describing how the monolith, as a physical being stationed there, actually awakes to both the Tycho Magnetic Anomaly (the monolith on the moon) being uncovered and exposed to the sun, as well as the approaching of Dave in his shuttle. This idea of a being as the monolith, which the apes/humans viewed as a sort of godlike (at least superior to them) entity, takes it to the next step of evolution. The starchild, of course, is widely open to interpretation, but I think mindslip pretty much hits the nail on the head.

Re:Missing the meaning of the book...

[Anonymous Coward]

To me the point of 2001 and Childhood's End (the latter my favourite novel of his) is that humanity has hard limits on how far it can comprehend the universe.

In both books a new race emerges, developing from humanity but not humanity, which can work on that scale.

As one of the Overlords says in Childhood's End, "The stars are not meant for man!"

Never mind 2001...

[Strollin Troll]

I'm still disappointed that New York wasn't turned into a maximum security prison in 1997 as predicted here!

Re:Never mind 2001...

[Anonymous Coward]

WTC as still there.

for everyone's reference

[Paolomania]

here are some discussions where we have covered this material before

Remembering 2001 in 2001 (April 01)
2001: A Space Prophecy (Dec 00)

no HAL, no AI?

[Anonymous Coward]

The author claims that a being like HAL or the robot-kid in A.I. will never be possible? What crap be this? Why? We are just complex machines. It's like what my Calc teacher said about getting the derivitive of something, "might be a pain, but it's always possible [as compared with integration]"...

Eventually we will be able to make stuff of even this complexity. No, it may not be via a "computer" running a "neural network program", but remember, we can cross the Atlantic in 2 hours...

How, by using REALLY fast ships?? No, with airplanes!

Who says that we need the same basic technology to take us from ENIAC to "brains"? Data doesn't have a Pentium 200 inside after all...

I think Clarke was right. Just a matter of time...

Re:no HAL, no AI?

[foobar104]

The author claims that a being like HAL or the robot-kid in A.I. will never be possible? What crap be this? Why? We are just complex machines.

I disagree with your premise. Maybe it's sheer hubris, but I believe that people are more than "just complex machines." I have no proof for this. It is an article of faith, and though it's not based on religion, it's almost religious in its intensity.

Let's look at the evidence. Human beings are unique in the known universe: we alone among all creatures and constructs create art, technology, religion, and science. Fencepost cases like termites constructing their castles and chimps learning sign language just reinforce the evidence for a fundamental difference between humans and other creatures or things.

What evidence exists to indicate that we are "just complex machines?"

All in all, I think it's like saying that a bird is really just a complex rock.

Re:no HAL, no AI?

[roman_mir]

I am an atheist but I do not want my answer to be based on purely that assumption, I've being drawn into some religious battles but normally I try to stay away, it really is none of my business if someone believes in something. Atheism is in itself a system of believes, no doubts about that, of course atheists have rejected faith de facto and are trying to regain understanding of the world based on a different system of believes - so called scientific approach.

Are people just complex machines? Well, we know that no matter what else we are, we are also complex machines in some sence. We also benefit from symbiosis with other creatures (microorganisms that live inside our bodies) and we consume products that came from other organisms of this planet (I am a vegetarian, to me tomato is one of such products)
Now, let us assume that we do not know whether we just complex machines or we are some special creatures breeded by super-powerful God (or Gods, depending on your religion) So we have two cases to look at: first - we are very complex machines. If this is assumed, then it is not inconcievable that at some point in time we should be able to produce non-organic organisms that somehow imitate our own behaviour and even the train of thoughts. To duplicate our thought patterns, the creature will have to posses qualities that are shared by all living organisms on this planet (ability to see, hear, feel a touch, necessities for food or fuel) and qualities specific to human race - sex drive and necessity to socialize and some others. If we are just very complex machines, duplicating the environment for robots capable of all the above mentioned will probably drive these robots to become more like humans, will teach them to think in abstract ways, will force these robots to evolve (the merits of this evolution are questionable)

Now let's assume we are not simply complex machines, that for us in order to think in an abstract manner we need some divine intervention. In this case we still should be able to produce robots with above mentioned traits, but these robots will not amount to anything beyond social structures found in bee or ant colonies. At best in this case we could hope to produce intelligence comparable to that of a primate ape, a gorilla maybe, but even that would be a major break through. However, if it is completely and totally impossible to create intelligence comparable to human in a manner that humans can comprehend, we can still simulate it. You see, Alan Turin left specifications that allowed many to devise tests that can be used to find out whether you are communicating with a real human or with a machine. In fact, there are already today some AI programs that are capable of fooling some people and make us think that we are talking to a human rather than a machine. But the catch is that it does not really matter what or who you are talking to if you cannot tell the difference between it and an identifiable human. So, we could in principle have machines that would run simulated versions of ourself convincinly.

About us being unique - we are unique on this planet, we are the only creatures capable of handling tools and more importantly of producing a large number of different sounds that can be combined into complex speech. This is our main advantage and not something unidentifiable (if it were identifiable, we would have identified it already, otherwise it does not make any difference if it is there or not.)

Re:no HAL, no AI?

[Anonymous Coward]

A bird IS just a complex rock.

Look down, past the celular level, down to the molecular. We operate the same as any other matter in the universe, as far as we know. We are a series of chemical and physical reactions.

Isn't it amazing that we have become so complex that we can ponder the very nature of ourselves? This doesn't require ANY supernatural influence.

BTW, do a bit of research, animals do and have used tools and there is evidence that some of our closest relatives, having only brains a quarter the size of ours, are, to an extent, sentient, knowing that they exist.

Lets not also forget the many species that had brains bigger than a great ape's yet smaller than or equal to our own that are now extinct.

How would they feel if we homo sapiens and only homo sapiens were created by the hand of God, while they merely were on the next rung down as "animals"?

These old arguments are slowly being won over, disproved and solved. As Carl stated in, "Pale Blue Dot", almost all of the ideas about EVERYTHING being there just for US alone to do with as we wish mute and silly.

An animal has an intrinsic value - species have been around LONG before us - their value isn't based on our interpretations of them.

If an animal exists in a forest, but we don't know of it, does it still exist? Why yes, yes it does.

Clarke surely believes in evolution and his ideas about an intelligence that might consider us, by our own criteria that we apply to our fellow inhabitants, animals, is cool and powerful - which is why we are taking the time to compare a fiction with reality in the first place.

Re:no HAL, no AI?

[foobar104]

Look down, past the celular level, down to the molecular. We operate the same as any other matter in the universe, as far as we know. We are a series of chemical and physical reactions.

Of course you're correct. Technically. Literally. Deconstruction can be applied to anything, rendering it empty and meaningless.

At what point does "sound" become "music?" Bach's Air on a G-String is just a sequence of sounds, right?

Re:no HAL, no AI?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why does it render us meaningless?

Do we only have meaning if we are created by the hand of God, if we are destined to rule the Universe according to some ancient myth?

How very "human" it is to consider a piece of sound "music". How might a sentient computer built by us judge that piece of sound? A sentient machine built by other intelligences, aliens, perhaps? An orangatan? The alien creators of that hypothecical sentient machine themselves??

Any piece of music is just sound, as we are just chemical reactions.

So what of it?? Why should our true nature offend anyone? Isn't being the "sum of our parts" good enough?? What a cool sum we are.

Re:no HAL, no AI?

[Anonymous Coward]

Deconstruction can be applied to anything, rendering it empty and meaningless.

Define meaning. And explain why it's required.

That said, I think you're right in some ways. But not in the way you think. We are just nothing more than complex machines. But there are some unexplained parts of our complexity that we still need to figure out. One of those is what philosophers call the qualia. The experience. We can model ourselves as pieces of matter, but it still leaves the actual experience of being aware, of thinking, of feeling, unanswered.

Still, it doesn't make us anything more than just thinking and feeling complex machines.

Re:no HAL, no AI?

[Anonymous Coward]

Some animals also seem to exhibit "qualia" as you say, lets not try and be too human-centric here...we are animals, after all, and closer beings to inspect, closer to us, that is, are either extinct or haven't been discovered yet.
Really cool work is being done to see if animals have a sense of self and some seem to - based on what we know of it, anyway! It's often forgotten that as you advance in the shrub of life on a line towards our direction, you reach gradual levels of difference. Just because we have scyscapers and Slashdot doesn't mean that we are orders of magnitude more advanced than primates! After all, computers allow us to do amazing things our ancestors could not - tools upon tools upon tools - but we aren't "smarter" than human hunter-gatherers were...

The biggest difference between "2001" and 2001?

[kcbrown]

IMHO, it's that in Clarke's "2001", humans have a permanent manned presence in space near Earth and are starting to expand a bit.

In the real 2001, we don't have shit for a manned presence in space. Let's face it, compared with the vision in "2001", the ISS is a complete joke, and we've basically just been sitting on our asses for the past 30 years when it comes to space.

But the real bummer of it all is that I don't think we'll have a permanent, independent manned presence in space for at least the next thousand years. Why? Because such a group of people represents a greater threat to the U.S. (or any large, power-greedy government) than any other country on Earth. Think about it: such a group of people could literally drop rocks the size of a football field on any place on the planet, and do so with relative immunity. Such a group would be more or less untouchable, and no government on the face of this planet that cares anything about power could handle that.

That's why I think the government will regulate any private manned space venture out of existence.

Re:The biggest difference between "2001" and 2001?

[CounterZer0]

Funny you should mention rock droppings. Robert Heinlin's novel 'The Moon is a Harsh Mistress' is basically exactly what you've just talked about. Another very good, possibly accurate vision of the future?

Re:The biggest difference between "2001" and 2001?

[thenerd]

That's why I think the government will regulate any private manned space venture out of existence.

However, they couldn't regulate any private manned space venture, as space isn't theirs. If I didn't live in the US and wanted to go into space using my own stuff, I'm not entirely sure how they could regulate that at all.

thenerd.

Re:The biggest difference between "2001" and 2001?

[kcbrown]

However, they couldn't regulate any private manned space venture, as space isn't theirs. If I didn't live in the US and wanted to go into space using my own stuff, I'm not entirely sure how they could regulate that at all.

That's if you don't live in the U.S. Or in any country that acts as the U.S.'s bitch.

So let's say you're trying to start a private manned space venture. You need all sorts of relatively exotic and high-tech equipment (the space suits, for one thing). Where exactly are you going to get this stuff from? Any place you might get it from will receive strong "suggestions" from the U.S. government that they refrain from selling it. A few governments on the planet will tell the U.S. where to stick it but most/all of those don't have the tech to sell you anyway.

Basically, I'd say that any country that has an advanced enough tech base to make your venture possible also has a power-hungry paranoid government running it, or one which likes to kiss the ass of such a government.

Re:The biggest difference between "2001" and 2001?

[foobar104]

But the real bummer of it all is that I don't think we'll have a permanent, independent manned presence in space for at least the next thousand years. Why? Because such a group of people represents a greater threat to the U.S. (or any large, power-greedy government) than any other country on Earth.

I think you're missing the much simpler point: what advantage would come from having a permanent habitat in space? Science and abstract knowledge, yes, and practical knowledge of how to live and work in that environment, but what else?

Living in space is hard, orders of magnitude harder than setting up a settlement in an uninhabited place on Earth. So our reason for moving into space would have to be orders of magnitude better than our reasons for (for example) colonizing and populating North America in the 1500s.

The only compelling reason I can think of to set up settlements in space or on other worlds is the "all your eggs in one basket" problem. It is at least theoretically possible that a catastrophe could make our planet uninhabitable, and thereby wipe out our entire species. Setting up settlements on Mars (for example) would help guarantee that no catastrophe that wipes out our whole planet would wipe out our whole species. And even that argument appeals to an ethic-- survival of the species-- that most people find it hard to personalize.

Of course, even then we have the whole death-of-the-sun thing to worry about. So we should colonize planets around other stars. The we have to keep an eye on this fragile galaxy of ours-- one really big black hole at the whole thing is kaput! And, sooner than you realize, you're worrying about how to stop proton decay and fend off the eventual heat death of the universe, problems so far off that even talking about them requires scientific notation.

All in all, it just doesn't add up to a very good reason to spend a lot of effort on living in space.

Re:The biggest difference between "2001" and 2001?

[CaptCosmic]

I think someone has been watching too much Gundam Wing.

Re:The biggest difference between "2001" and 2001?

[Legion303]

So let's say you're trying to start a private manned space venture. You need all sorts of relatively exotic and high-tech equipment (the space suits, for one thing).

Getting into space isn't as high-tech as you think, as long as you have enough scientific brainpower. Look at Russia in the 60s. And speaking of Russia, notice how much good the US and NASA's "strong 'suggestions'" did when Tito wanted to tour space.

-Legion

Re:The biggest difference between "2001" and 2001?

[Legion303]

All in all, it just doesn't add up to a very good reason to spend a lot of effort on living in space.

The probable destruction of human civilization isn't a very good reason to start getting into space while we can?

Hey, if you insist. :)

-Legion

Re:The biggest difference between "2001" and 2001?

[foobar104]

The probable destruction of human civilization isn't a very good reason to start getting into space while we can?

(Probable?? Discussions of probability become meaningless when the event domain is expanded too far. It's the million-monkey problem. Given a million asteroids in random orbits and an infinite amount of time, one of those asteroids will hit the Earth. This means absolutely nothing.)

Exactly how much good will it do me to have a million people living on the moon? Not humanity in general, but me, personally.

This is the point of view through which most humans see the world: self-interest. It's not a moral thing-- not absolutely good or absolutely bad-- it's just the way things are.

Given the limited resources at our society's disposal, it's hard to convince the population as a whole that setting up homesteads on other planets is a better use of money, time, and raw materials than, say, curing heart disease.

So given the opportunity costs involved, no, the eventual possibility of the destruction of our planet is not a very good reason to get into space.

Re:The biggest difference between "2001" and 2001?

[Legion303]

What does convincing the population have to do with whether it's a good idea to expand into space?

-Legion

Re:The biggest difference between "2001" and 2001?

[foobar104]

What does convincing the population have to do with whether it's a good idea to expand into space?

If you think you can colonize space all by yourself, then by all means, be my guest.

But otherwise, it's going to take a lot of money and labor and natural resources. You're going to need to get a lot of people to agree with you before you can even get started.

Re:The biggest difference between "2001" and 2001?

[Legion303]

You're missing the point entirely. A "good idea" is just that: an idea. Whether or not you can convince people to put effort into it is irrelevant. Failing to convince people to start colonizing space might make the idea *moot*, but it's still a good idea.

-Legion

There's a book about this

[NachtVorst]

A few years ago I bought the book 'Hal's Legacy; 2001's Computer as Dream and Reality'. It's a pretty cool comparison of Clarke's vision of 2001 and how far we got in 1997. It compares the diferent abilities of HAL with the state of AI today, writen by experts in those fields, like

• Foreword by Arthur C. Clarke
• Interview with Marvin Minsky by David Stork (editor of the book)
• Speech recognition and understanding, by Ray Kurzweil
• Computer ethics (When HAL Kills, Who's to blame?), by Daniel C. Dennet
• Chapters on text-to-speech, computer-chess, supercomputer-design, reliable computing an fault-tolerance, use of language, computer 'eyes', speechreading, emotions and computing, etc...

It's a cool book to read if you're interested in AI (but not an expert, then it could be all old news I guess), but it is a bit expensive (at least here in Europe)..

'HAL's Legacy', edited by David G. Stork, MITpress, ISBN 0-262-19378-7. Oh, I just found an online version at MIT, check it out: http://mitpress.mit.edu/e-books/Hal/

NachtVorst

Clarke

[almeida]

Sir Arthur C. Clarke held a webcast interview with my school a little while back titled "Imagine in the Future: Visions of the World to Come." Clarke and some others talked about their expectations for the next 100 years. You can watch the video (Windows Media only) at here. It was a pretty interesting discussion.

Dear Professor Linux...

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Professor Linux,

Please tell me how I can avoid soiling myself in indignation whenever I hear wee French described as "cheese-eating surrender monkeys".

Signed,
Francois P.

Re:Dear Professor Linux...

[Anonymous Coward]

HEY! THAT'S NOT FUNNY! We French have had our asses kicked by smaller countries than YOURS! Now please go commit suicide before you annoy us again.

The uses of science fiction.

[Lemmy Caution]

While an element of prophesy is part-and-parcel of science fiction, ultimately any work of literature is more about the times that it was written in rather than the times they are writing about.

A great book about the role of science fiction is Thomas Disch's "The Dreams Our Stuff is Made Of." The science fiction of the past often shapes our present by informing the imaginations of the people who created it. How many AI researchers cite HAL as an inspiration, goal, or benchmark?

MAD Magazine

[HungWeiLo]

Mad did this comparison some issues ago: (a sample)

• People evolved from apes : The Man Show
• A giant mysterious black monolith : Shaquille O'Neil
• Evil computers attempt to take over humankind : Microsoft
• Bland, tasteless space food : Taco-Bell Chalupas
• The world will only have white people : NBC's Thursday night lineup
• some more which I couldn't remember off the top of my head...

Re:MAD Magazine

[Anonymous Coward]

If the world only has white people in it then please explain how the monolith is Shaquille O'Neil?

Re:MAD Magazine

[Anonymous Coward]

since when does Shaquille O'Neill belong to the set "people"? He is a machine.

There were no mobiles in the film

[romanm]

Besides other way around, there are also some areas of technology that were not predicted by the "2001: A Space Odyssey" and yet they have great impact on the way we live nowadays.

Namely, there's this scene in the film where Floyd calls home and his child answers the phone saying that he cannot talk to mommy because she went to the hair-dresser. In this case the reality is even more advanced that Kubrick's anticipation - obviously the nowadays wife would carry a mobile phone if her husband was in space on a mission.

Re:There were no mobiles in the film

[Pope]

And companies are STILL trying to sell us on the idea of the video phone, just now on our cellphones! Ugh.

Which came first?

[whipping_post]

I actually think the book and the movie were written simultaneously by Clarke and Kubrick. I may be mistaken, but the version of the book I have has a preface written by Clarke where he describes how they approached the writing.

Re:Which came first?

[snarkh]

Is it right? I have always thought the book was written after by Clarke. For one thing Kubrick is not a coauthour. For another, the movie is far superior IMHO.

Re:Which came first?

[grappler]

The book was written first, by Clarke alone. In the book, the Discovery went to a moon of Saturn, not Jupiter. Big Brother was sitting upright on the moon like a skyscraper, and Dave fell into it trying to land on it.

Then, Clarke wrote the second book, instead using Jupiter (I imagine because Europa seemed like a good spot to introduce new life). He retroactively changed the plot of 2001 to a Jupiter mission when he collaborated with Kubrick on the movie script.

The interesting thing is, both destinations have met with interesting coincidences. Europa has indeed turned out to be a scientific curiosity, with speculation of large oceans of liquid water underneath a covering of ice.

On the saturn side, the moon was described in 2001 as having a large oval of white (a perfectly shaped field of rocks), with Big Brother standing in the center. The effect was of a large eye with a black pupil at its center, which "blinked" when Dave was sent through the wormhole. An eerie effect, and I think that was the whole reason for the description.

Later, a probe sent back imagery of the same moon (can't remember which one), and scientists saw... a white oval on the surface. I read one of them quoted saying something like "If there's a black rock in the middle I'm gonna kill Arthur C. Clarke"

Re:Which came first?

[armb]

> The book was written first, by Clarke alone.

The short story "The Sentinel" was written first, the book and filmscript for "2001" were then done at overlapping times. Like the previous poster says, there is a preface in the book explaining this.

> Then, Clarke wrote the second book, instead using Jupiter (I imagine because Europa seemed like a good spot to introduce new life).
> He retroactively changed the plot of 2001 to a Jupiter mission when he collaborated with Kubrick on the movie script.

No, the second book (2010) used Jupiter because the movie had. (Also because if you want to create a new mini-sun, Jupiter is a better choice than Saturn).

This is from memory, but a quick Google shows e.g.
http://scifidimensions.fanhosts.com/Dec00/2001bo ok s.htm supports it.

Something in the article...

[DrQu xum]

I quote.
"Poorly-performing computer code is killed off. Superior code is spliced with sibling programs and bred again."

I think we can all give some significant counter-examples...

A possible re-write could state: "Poorly-performing computer code is bred for the purpose of appeasement; superior code spliced into the poor code whenever economically necessary."

Re:Something in the article...

[sharkey]

I would have said, "Donated to educational facilities as a 'punishment' to the purveyors of said poorly-performing code."

2001: A Space Odyssey

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean like they're doing in the article?

Open the pod bay door, HAL

[Anonymous Coward]

s/opinion/advice/, it flows better.

Movie 2001 vs real 2001

[shoppa]

Movie 2001:We're ruled by a giant monolith from outer space.
Real 2001:We're ruled by congress

Re:Movie 2001 vs real 2001

[Vegeta99]

Congress? Don't you mean Lobbyists?

Re:Movie 2001 vs real 2001

[sharkey]

Movie 2001:We're ruled by a giant monolith from outer space.
Real 2001: We're ruled by a monopoly from Redmond.

What is *BSD?

[Anonymous Coward]

I see these posts all the time and, based on everyone's responses, I understand that this is a troll. But, what is *BSD??

Re:What is *BSD?

[Anonymous Coward]

*BSD is dying.

Re:What is *BSD?

[Steve Bergman]

BSD is not one entity, but actually a family of different dying operating systems. NETBSD is a dying OS that seeks to run on as many platforms as possible. OpenBSD is another, variant, dying OS, that seeks to be as secure as possible, whereas FreeBSD is yet another dying OS that hopes to follow in the footsteps of Linux and have a lot of momentum and developer interest. BSD/OS is a dying commercial OS which even those of us that follow dying OS'es don't really care about anymore. I hope this makes things clearer for you. ;-)

Don't be silly

[Macrobat]

I'm sorry, but this is silly:

Human beings are unique in the known universe...

We don't even know everything about our own planet, much less the universe. Saying that we're unique in the very, very small part of the universe that is our experience proves nothing.

Fencepost cases like termites constructing their castles and chimps learning sign language just reinforce the evidence for a fundamental difference between humans and other creatures or things.

Ummm...how?

Re:Don't be silly

[foobar104]

We don't even know everything about our own planet, much less the universe. Saying that we're unique in the very, very small part of the universe that is our experience proves nothing.

The thing about the unknown universe is that it's unknown. To even speculate about what's out there, in the face of an overwhelming lack of evidence, is folly.

You can talk all you want about what might be. It might be possible for Venus to be inhabited by seven-foot-tall beaver-people who communicate through flatulence; there may be nothing in the universe that prevents that from being the case. But that doesn't mean you should send probes to Venus with tags on them that say, "With love to the beaver people. Poot!"

Show me one piece of evidence-- evidence, not conjecture or speculation-- that another species like us exists in the universe. Just one.

I read as much science fiction as anybody I know. I love to think about the larger universe, and life on distant worlds, and all of that. But wishing doesn't make it so.

Re:Don't be silly

[Anonymous Coward]

"Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence"
-- Someone Smarter Than Me :)

I can give you multiple examples. Orangatangs. Neanderthals. And several other extinct human and pre-human species I can't easily spell.

Re:Don't be silly

[Macrobat]

You've made a classic amateur's blunder, between specific cases and categories.

We speculate and can make predictions quite rationally about all sorts of events in the universe that we may never see--that a star ten times as massive as our sun will exert ten times the gravitational pull, for instance, or that it's heat and light are given off as a result of hydrogen fusion reactions. Even though the overwhelming number of stars will never be catalogued, we can say that, as a category, they follow the same laws of physics as ours does.

But you seem to be saying that nothing about the known laws of biology or physics prevents seven-foot-tall Beaver people from living on Venus, which is simply not the case. It isn't just a matter of "we haven't seen them." It's that their existence would contradict everything we know about biology, chemistry, and evolution.

Speaking of evolution, I believe that's what the original poster is saying: that life began as the result of knowable chemical mechanisms; that, as time wore on, complexity, added through successive mutations, and pruned through natural selection, eventually created us (and every other living thing we see); and that, since no special agents were required, it is not in any way inappropriate to call living organisms complex machines. Very complex machines, no argument, but machines nevertheless.

If that is not how you believe humanity arose, then I strongly doubt your claim that you aren't arguing on religious/superstitious grounds.

Re:Don't be silly

[foobar104]

I haven't the foggiest idea how humanity arose. And you don't either. It would be wise of you to remember that.

What you describe is nothing more than a model: a mental model of the universe that people have devised over the past 150 years or so. Remember that in recorded history, many models have been believed for a while and then discarded when they were proved wrong. In fact, if you draw it up numerically, you'll see that human beings are much more likely, statistically, to be totally wrong about nature and the universe than we are to be right.

It's very important, as we try to sort out how the world works, that we remember that we don't understand anything. All we have is conjecture that is more likely to be wrong than right. Remembering this keeps us humble.

What do my eyes tell me? That human beings are amazingly complex things. My girlfriend recently got her PhD in molecular genetics. She spent years studying the behavior of one specific set of bases in one specific chromosome. (It had to do with acetyl CoA synthetase, but that's all I know; everything else she talks about is beyond me.) If she chooses, she could make a lifetime's work out of studying that one invisible part of us.

But the same can be said for elm trees, or spider webs. Everything around us is beautiful and terrifying in its complexity.

And yet... through it all, humans are different. Humans argue about the nature of humanity, and as far as we know, that makes us unique in all the world. Why are we unique? Why was I born a person and not a goldfish? Am I a Chinese philosopher who dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly who dreams he is a Chinese philosopher?

I challenge anyone to behold the uniqueness of humanity and come out the other side saying that we're "just complex machines." To reduce us to those terms is to call a bird a complex rock; it denies everything that defines us, and it's foolish.

Re:Don't be silly

[Anonymous Coward]

respectfully, I challenge you!

You are partially right about the model idea - but it's more than just conjecture. Science is what we are really talking about, right? It's just querying nature and getting a result. If anybody, anywhere, with identical circumstances can reproduce the experiment, say, or can get the same result, you can say it's been verified and bump it up until something becomes a law.

Noone knows exactly how it all started on Earth, but you seem to miss several points which I think are important. Whole solar systems came into existance, existed, and died before our little Earth even came to be. As far as we understand them, the laws of nature are the same everywhere (at least everywhere that we are talking about, lets not get into alternative Unviverses, etc).

Given almost infinite times spans, consistant "stuff" throught the cosmos and consistant laws, why should we be unique? Can't there be countless "complex machines" out there? No, there is no proof of this. But here are some facts: we aren't the center of the solar system. We aren't the center of our galaxy. We aren't the center of the universe. We aren't the only planet. We aren't in the only solar system, galaxy, and maybe, just maybe, universe either!

All that aside - assume that all this enourmous expanse of time and space - all the eons before us and after us are all here, in all directions and dimensions, just for us. Even if all that were so, right here on our little planet, we have discovered compelling evidence that other humanoid creaturs, some classified as human, some not, have developed a mind complex enough to make fire, tools, etc.

Even without aliens, we aren't the "only complex" machine on this rock!!

By your own criteria, I'd say some of the great apes (the ones that can recognize themselves in mirrors, for example) and dolphins have the same "uniqueness" and awesomeness of complexity and design that we do.

Back to 2001, I also think that in time AI will become RI, again, undermining our "uniqueness" to some degree.

Nature is a graduation of evolution, surely you can see it! Us, apes, and on down the line. Apes and even elephants can learn and pass knowledge down to future generations! That's right! We aren't the only creatues on this rock that can do this. Apes learn which things to eat for which ailments. Raise an ape in a zoo, from birth, and it will have no clue. Kill the matriacrh elephant, and the rest of the heard may not find water - that knowledge died with her - they are fubar. If either species had the ability to think just a TAD more abstactly and perhaps record this information down in some type of written form - perhaps most of the readers would insert trunk jokes along with the Microsoft variety...

You see, we have just a teeny-tiny iddy-bidy bit more complexity than say some of the earlier hominids - just enough, just a tad more, in order to think abstractly and create all this and this web site, etc., this whole discussion. Don't think that all this is because of a vastly different brain, or, dare I say, soul. We are more animal, more the same, than different.

Re:Don't be silly

[Macrobat]

I see your game. You're neither Chuang-Tzu nor the butterfly; you're either a troll or a smoker of the good crack.

You first decide that anything that contradicts you has to be backed up with hard evidence, and not, as you say, speculation. Then you decide to dismiss evolution, which in fact is based on hard evidence, with the hand-waving that it might be overturned on some speculative, as-yet unseen evidence.

Why do you think that being machines is no less wonderful than being...whatever it is you think we are? Why is the wonder and diversity of nature somehow less fascinating because it is orderly, and not the result of arbitrary processes? If anything, the fact that incredible sophistication can arise from organic, physical processes is even more awe-inspiring than resorting to easy cop-outs like special creation.

(And one more thing...lay off the sophomoric imagery, please. "Beautiful and terrifying in its complexity" proves nothing.)

Re:Don't be silly

[foobar104]

You see, we have just a teeny-tiny iddy-bidy bit more complexity than say some of the earlier hominids - just enough, just a tad more, in order to think abstractly and create all this and this web site, etc.

If there were some way to quantify the differences between things, some sort of absolute vector between two items that could be established and measured, then we would see something like this:

The difference between a raven and a writing desk: huge. Birds are animate organisms that consume and excrete and reproduce. Furniture is a made thing, constructed out of other objects by a third party; it cannot reproduce.

Write all the differences down and add them up. Fair to say that, despite the fact that both are made from the same basic elements, birds and furniture are really, really different in very significant ways, no?

Likewise, people and elephants are really, really different. People play football. People commit murder. People enjoy books and songs and pornography. People argue about whether they are unique in the world. Elephants, apes, dolphins, mice, australopithecines, bacteria, furniture, mayonnaise, steam engines, candles, computers, shoes, ships, and sealing wax do none of these things.

The difference between human being and everything else is not small. It's incomprehensibly enormous.

Re:Don't be silly

[foobar104]

you're either a troll or a smoker of the good crack

If I'm a troll, I hope I'm the good kind. The kind that starts conversations. A hell of a lot better than that bozo who just posts long lists of numbers.

Now, as to your points. First of all, I'm not dismissing evolution at all. The mechanism by which successful organisms reproduce and pass their genes on to future generations is well documented, and makes perfect sense. Humanity as we know it today may very well have evolved from more primitive organisms.

But you should remember that evolution takes place over uncountable lengths of time. No human can truly grasp the span of a hundred thousand years, and yet in that time (according to the fossil record) our species has changed very little, in the gross biological sense. In order to see real differences in our ancestors, you have to go back thirty times that far.

These spans of time are utterly beyond comprehension. We can talk about them, and we can understand them in the literal sense, but we can't truly grasp them. Who knows what events took place during that time? Where were you when the foundations of the earth were laid?

The facts that we do have are these: according to the fossil record, humanity has existed in its present physical form for three million years, more or less. But sometime around 8,000-10,000 years ago, people started practicing agriculture. With that came settlements, which eventually grew into cities. Then it was like a big game of Civilization II for several thousand years, and then BOOM! Slashdot.

Why? Trying to answer that question puts you pretty firmly in Von Daniken territory.

Given this circumstance, why is it so hard to believe that there is something fundamentally different about humanity, something that we do not understand?

Once upon a time, diseases in the body were believed to be caused by devils. At another time, physical sickness was thought to be the result of one's state of mind-- melancholia, for example. Then came the germ theory, and a new idea of disease and sickness.

So now we contemplate our uniqueness. All around the world, in every culture, there exists the idea that humanity is divine, created somehow by a god or gods, some kind of primal motive force. The idea of the soul, of the divine spark, is common to all peoples in one form or another.

Personally, I don't believe in the soul. Personally, I don't believe in spiritual things or unseen deities. But I am willing to consider the possibility that the universal belief in the soul-- for every culture has such a belief, even if individuals may not share it personally-- might attempt to explain a real phenomenon.

How's that for trolling?

(And one more thing...lay off the sophomoric imagery, please. "Beautiful and terrifying in its complexity" proves nothing.)

Oh, you're just jealous. ;-)

Re:Don't be silly

[Anonymous Coward]

You are an eloquent writer, but you keep ignoring a few facts which I think are vital to any such discussion.

We are not that more advanced than our closest neighbor. This BOOM that you mention follows function like the invention of the computer lead to slashdot and the ability to calculate hitting the moon - no computer, no moon - still the same brains!!

Obviously we have a mental ability that other animals lack, but I completely and totally disagree that we are somehow specially gifted and that we are the end all - the finality in evolution!

We have not crossed some magic line where we "have arrived". Watch out, we are HERE! We can now understand all there is to understand in time, and are vastly supperior to other animals!

We haven't crossed any special line, lines like these exist in the fossil record all the back to the beginning (at least the start of evolution on this planet.)

Going back more to start of this debate, if you do agree in the natural process of non-supernatural evolution, going gradually over immense time spans from the simple to the complex - who is to say that we can't do the same artificially?? We are VERY complex, sure, but again, if you start at the beginning, quite simple. You can make a palace out of playing cards, but this had to start with just a few cards leaning against each other.

You haven't stated anything yet that changes my mind that we will create what will amount to artificial life in the form of machine intelligence (at least) at some future point.

I'm glad that you don't believe in the soul per se - there's hope for you yet!

BTW, have you read the book (2001)? Clarke see's where we are now more like a beginning then an end-be-all. The "aliens" in his book reached our stage and then changed into plastic and metal as he puts it, and finally, storing memories and such in the structure of space itself - i.e., pure enegry creatures ala Babylon 5, etc., etc. When/if we reach this stage, then maybe just maybe we will be suficiently different from apes and other animals that we can say, "ah-ha! Finally we are superior!"

Re:Don't be silly

[foobar104]

I'm not sure where you got the idea that I'm advocating humanity as the be-all, end-all of anything. If I gave you that idea, I misspoke somewhere.

Yes, humanity appears to have evolved from other, less complex, life forms, and yes, it's reasonable to guess that that process of change-over-time might continue. But are you completely, totally, 100% certain that that's the whole story?

Human beings, as I've tried to say before, are distinctly different from any other species that we've found so far. You seem to disagree with me on this fundamental point. That's fine, but I must say that I can't understand how you can see the evidence of our distinctiveness with your own eyes and still deny it.

You haven't stated anything yet that changes my mind that we will create what will amount to artificial life in the form of machine intelligence (at least) at some future point.

How about this: hypothesize that there is some necessary ingredient for intelligence (whatever that really means) that we have, but that all other life forms on this planet lack. I won't speculate about what that requirement might be, but just imagine that it's there. Maybe it's paprika; it doesn't matter.

It would explain a lot. It would explain why, in all the world, there is no other species like ours. We live only on land, and yet there is no species comparable to ours in the vast ocean. There's room enough in the sea for just about anything, and yet still we are unique. Why? According to our hypothesis, it's because only we humans have the necessary ingredient.

A natural consequence of this hypothesis is the idea that intelligence doesn't just spontaneously appear out of nowhere. If that's true (just bear with me) then making computers that are bigger and faster and more complex (and only the five richest kings of Europe...) will result in bigger, faster, more complex computers, but not intelligent ones. Because, going along that path, we will not have built a computer that includes... paprika. The ingredient. Whatever it is.

Now that our little thought-experiment is over, ask yourself whether any evidence to the contrary exists. We've come up with a hypothesis that would explain some things, so now we have to either prove it or disprove it with real evidence.

Is there any evidence to support either point of view? No, there isn't. Then why jump to the conclusion that one point of view must be the correct one?

I'll acknowledge that it's possible that you may be right. But it seems to me that there are some unexplained facts about the world, and there's an awful lot of room in your world-view for some factor, some ingredient, about which you know nothing. That's all I want: just admit the possibility that I may be right.

Re:Don't be silly

[Anonymous Coward]

Admit that you may be right? :) Yeah, you may be right. Personally, I don't think so, however...

Assuming the paprika case, of course you are right. At first glance, of course we are distinct. I'm saying, bear with me for just a moment, and look deeper.

I think this whole thing boils down to the fact that I don't think of intelligence as black or white - you either have it, or you don't! You either have paprika, or you don't. I think that we are a variety of spices. We have the most paprika...other animals, the most garlic or thyme. Intelligence itself is relative - I read something a few years back about several intelligences, spatial, artistic, rational (i think), social, etc. That author claimed that according to those constraints, Dolphins have more social intelligence than we do! That meaning there are varieties of paprika, and they have more of on kind, we more of another kind.

We really aren't sure what being concious is all about, or what thinking and reasoning are, or what thinking abstactly means. I don't think I'm denying any evidence, quite the contrary. Here are some things I know for sure, I'm no scientist, but I love this stuff:

Most animals on the planet with exception of the higher apes can't understand a mirror. Experiments with orangatangs show that they understand! They can use the mirror to pick their teeth, for example, and groom themselves. No big deal? Go even slightly lower in the shrub of life, like to a baboon - they don't get it. The growl at the mirror, attack it, try to steal it, etc. It's interesting to them, but they don't seem to have any sense of self.

They've done awesome experiemnts with chimps in rooms, and within thess rooms, are small models of the rooms. The tester then hides a toy banana in the model of the room, with the chimp watching, and the chimp then goes to the actual room and knows where the banana is! This is the beginning of abstraction!! Not bad for a quarter-brain! Teach chimps to seperate males and females given a stack of photos...they can easily do this. Allow them to seperate animals and humans into piles - they do this with one mistake - they put themselves in OUR pile! This kind of stuff brings tears to my eyes and puts chills on my spine...i'd say they have a smattering of paprika...

Adult chimps draw in an identical fasion to human kids, up until about age three, then they divert. I could go on and on...wouldn't you call this evidence? No, they haven't invented a chimp-net, but for a significant part of our history, we were just hunter gatherers...even now, there are those citing the evils of technology that suggest we should return to this lifestyle...

Imagine an intelligence that doesn't produce technology. Imagine a non-social intelligence. Either case would not produce slashdot yet both would have paprika. Assuming of course you could even test such creaturs for intelligence at all.

I think my world view is quite the opposite of narrow! And this is just the story on our planet. Yes, there is no direct evidence of life on other planets, but given evolution, regardless how it began, given consistant laws of nature, given that we've already found other planes, some within the Goldilocks zone, given that there is some theory now that the Goldilocks zone isn't really needed anyway (life in the oceans of Europa - just speculation, I know), isn't quite possible?

Do you really think we are that unique, that we only have paprika, that no animals before us here, or any creatures anywhere else might be blessed with paprika?

What would you say about some of our extinct ancestors? Could neanderthals think? I think, based on what I've heard, that they probably could to an extent. Could they ever create cities with high-speed internet access? I doubt it, again, based on what I've heard - but they would have paprika. They would even pass a turing test, though the converstation might be limited to the days hunt...of course, you could answer that we really don't know for sure, and of course, I'd have to say you are right...but in this case,there is at least evidence.

Another thing to consider is, though not polically correct, there are humans with disabilites right now that have less smarts than some animals. Do they have paprika? What about comparing a one year old human to an adult gorilla? Are we talking about "potential paprika", or "paprika"?

Also, given we have the precious red spice, can't we use this to make other creatures and bestow them with the red spice?? I'm not talking about adding ram to a desktop pc, it need not even be computers, but can't you conceive of the possibility of some un-natural, artificial life, including that life with paprika?

Re:Don't be silly

[Anonymous Coward]

I disagree.

We aren't that different, us and wax. The same laws that allow us to exist in this universe allow rocks and wax to exist. Change the laws even a smidgen, wax and us can't exist here.

Football? Well, we can't compare activities - there isn't enough space for that. Apes go hunting, in what ways is that similar or different than football? We didn't get brains on day one and compare birds to rocks on day 2.

We had a SLIGHT advantage in understanding the world, a different way of understanding if you like, that allowed us to make better plans and come up with better tools. EONS later, we are here talking about it.

That pre-human hominid you mentioned could also plan and make tools. If that species were still around today we could better compare and contrast differences.

I think a mistake, at least IMHO that you are making is the difference between intelligence and accomplishment. Comapring a human hunter gatherer to a neaderthall hunter gatherer might me a more fair comparison.

Even if you compared what we do today with what we did 1000 years or even 100 years ago, there is a vast difference.

So early hominids and folks with Downs syndrome can't post phylosophical arguments on slashdot - does that really make them so different? If either were developed to their full potential, they may well be able to play footbal and some of the other things on your list.

The differences aren't small, depending on how you compare, they are TEENY.

As for wax, birds, rocks, etc., the differences are organization. Crystals are quite organized, but simple, comparitively...oceans are vastly comples, but lack structure (at least a drop of ocean water). We and birds and mice are both organized and complex. Think of how many other combinations of the same stuff can be made! Maybe elsewhere all together, there independantly evolved something can play games and discuss and enjoy porn and think that they too, are different and unique in all the cosmos and discount their own intelligent ancestors as being just up to par because they didn't play the same reigndeer games that they do...

With all due respect to Arthur C Clarke

[MisterBlister]

(Who was one of the more famous Amiga users, back in the day...) While Clarke has forecasted some amazing bits of technology, like the satellite, etc, I'm still more constantly amazed at the predictions made in Huxley's "Brave New World", including those of genetic engineering and cloning...

Considering Huxley wrote that novel in 1932 (the structure of DNA wasn't even found until the 1950s!), its rather amazing how accurate both the technology (in general, not the details, since when he was writing it a lot of this was far off fantasy) and the social aspects of it are compared to the current day.

Simple amazing...

Hal's Legacy - book

[danny]

Hal's Legacy is a nice book on how well Clarke predicted the future of computer science in 2001.

Danny.

Re:Hal's Legacy - book

[scotch]

Yeah - I have this book. It's very nicely done. A few years old now, so I don't know it's out of date on any of the research, but given that a prevailing theme in the book was that AI is a lot harder than we thought, and the stuff depicted in 2001 is mostly way off, I doubt if it is (out of date).

No, it doesn't

[Lars T.]

a recent Economist article that explores and compares the differences between Clarke/Kubrick's vision of 2001

Odd, the article only talks about the aspect of AI. I have the feeling that the author originally wrote that as a tie-in to A.I., but it got cancelled due to 9/11, and he recycled it now.

Not so far off base

[cthlptlk]

I think a lot of HAL's voice interface was just a dramatic device to make it really, really clear that something was going wrong with the computer. It would have been an even more boring movie if Dave and Gary sat around talking about the erratic performance of the expert system software. Similarly, it would have been far less dramatic if, when Dave is locked out, he simply said to himself, "I guess there's a serious bug in the computer" and disassembles a prop that isn't talking back.

It's true that HAL became the most interesting character in the movie, but I think that was really unintentional. If you take away the dramatic device, the whole point of HAL is that he doesn't understand the value of life and doesn't think at all like a human, even if he sounds like one. He totally fails the Turing test.

Article explains success of AOL...

[alienmole]

The article quotes sociobiologist Richard Dawkins contemplating willow seeds floating through the air:

It is raining instructions out there; it's raining programs; it's raining tree-growing, fluff-spreading, algorithms. That is not a metaphor, it is the plain truth. It couldn't be any plainer if it were raining floppy discs.

Or raining, say, AOL CDs...?

no real AI ever?

[treat]

The article says:

But their intelligence does not touch our own, and the prevailing scientific wisdom seems to be that it never will.

Is this indeed the prevailing scientific wisdom on the subject?

AI is just a software problem. If necessary, a scaled-down universe can be modeled to simulate the human brain. This is guaranteed to work, although it will require massive processing power. But not a theoretically impossible amount, simply one that we will take decades to develop.

Re:*BSD is dying

[Anonymous Coward]

It is now offical. Netcraft officially confirms: *BSD is dying

Yet another crippling bombshell hit the beleaguered *BSD community when recently IDC confirmed that *BSD accounts for less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of the latest Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as further exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.

You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood. FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers.

Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS hobbyist dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.

Fact: *BSD is dead

Re: Forms of Technology

[Aelgifa]

Great post man! I would also like to meld into that: In my interpretation, the progression of the story revolves around the creation of technology to advance intelligence and simplify the act of being. The bone, a piece of landscape was transformed by the ape in that moment of insight into a piece of technology. As a tool, as a weapon, the bone made the act of living and solving problems a little easier. It was also an advance that if one were alive in that day would slap their forehead and say to themselves, now why didn't I think of that? I would draw the conclusion that once this aspect of technology invention became evident to those employing them it allowed the species to focus on creating more technology that would further change their lives for the better. Thus striving to invent allowed our brains to evolve. Technology is an aid to evolution. The more technology you have the easier your life gets and the harder your problems to overcome become. Technology is also an aid to simplifying your life. By these two bits, one could say that, Technology is an aid to evolve into a being that is both on a higher level and yet simple at the same time. This sounds an awful lot like the monolith. The monolith is a symbol of minimal perfection. The apes, seeing the monolith and having the initial insight of creating it's first technology, transforms that higher state of being, the monolith, into a goal for all of human kind. Technology is just another vehicle to continue and expidite the process of reaching out towards that goal.

Re:Clarke

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhm, bzzzt! The book was based on the screenplay.
The movie was based on a short story called The Sentinel.
Kubrick and ACC were involved in the writing of the
screenplay.

You really should do your homework first.

ac

Hyperbole

[Anonymous Coward]

"For some souls, it became a religious experience. At a screening in Los Angeles, one member of the audience looked at the weird star-child in mysterious orbit about the earth at the film's end, ran down the aisle and crashed through the screen shouting `It's God! It's God!'" It's 1968, folks... This article would draw a conclusion from one data-point, a guy on acid?

probability is the future of AI, not ga

[Anonymous Coward]

it is the opinion of this humble AI practitioner that "evolving intelligence" (aka genetic algorithms) is not the future of AI, and this article is _way off_.

as far as straight optimization goes, ga's almost always lose out to other techniques: in neural networks, for instance, the best training algorithms are based on trust-region methods.

and as far as a _foundation_ for a science, ga's provide no real insight, being essentially a near-zero-knowledge optimization technique. what is needed is for AI a calculus of partial information; fortunately, a very nice one already exists in the form of probability theory, and this is how the really cool AI stuff is being right now (e.g., automated medical diagnosis).

perhaps ga's will be useful in the construction to solutions of subproblems indicated by probablistic analysis: however, even aspiring to this level would require a substantial improvement in the technique.

2c.

The state of A.I.

[Animats]

It's a very depressing field right now. All the main ideas (mathematical logic, expert systems, neural nets, genetic algorithms, subsumption) have hit a wall. Each one will take you so far, but no farther.

Most progress has been made by hammering on specific areas as engineering problems. Symbolic integration, chess, fingerprint recognition, and speech recognition each yielded, after heavy effort. But no broadly useful approach has emerged.

Compute power isn't the problem. We don't have good algorithms that just run too slow. We really have no idea what to do next to get to strong AI.

I went through Stanford CS during the "strong AI is right around the corner" enthusiasm of the mid-1980s. Today, you can go up to the second floor of the Gates Building and see the empty cubicles, and obsolete computers below the gold letters "Knowledge Systems Lab".

Re:The state of A.I.

[Louis Savain]

It's a very depressing field right now. All the main ideas (mathematical logic, expert systems, neural nets, genetic algorithms, subsumption) have hit a wall.

I agree that the traditional AI community has reached a brick wall and it's very unlikely that any breakthrough in our understanding of intelligence will come from that sector. They've collected way too much useless baggage over the years.

However, interesting things are happening in the fields of computational neuroscience and neurobiology. The most exciting revelation that has surfaced in the last decade is that the brain is essentially a temporal processing machine. It seems that what matters is the temporal correlations between neural signals, not the manipulation of symbols (as we were led to believe by the now discredited AI crowd). Check out this interview with Jeff Hawkins. I think Jeff is onto something.

Re:The state of A.I.

[Animats]

neuroscience and neurobiology.

Those guys haven't even figured out where memory is stored, let alone how the representation works. Any conclusions from that crowd are way premature.

Re:The state of A.I.

[Pathetic Coward]

Today, you can go up to the second floor of the Gates Building and see the empty cubicles, and obsolete computers below the gold letters "Knowledge Systems Lab".

What more need be said?

Re:The state of A.I.

[preaney]

The problem with creating artificial intelligence is that we don't understand how real intelligence works. Noone on the planet can explain the process by which I am able to figure out that a second cookie sheet placed under the first in the oven will keep the bottom of my cookies from burning. How can an artificial copy of that process be created when the original is not understood?

This lack of understanding of the human mind is evident in psychology. There are different camps within the profession that have conflicting theories on why they occurr. Until very recently, the Freudians were telling parents of autistic kids that autism was a reaction to cold, uncaring parents! The biochemical effects of antibiotics on bacteria are well known; prozac just works.

Until we figure out what intelligence is, and how it works, AI may prove to be the alchemy of our time.

We have space tourism

[Anonymous Coward]

Just not nearly as much as depicted in the movie.

Re-read the article and start over

[r1_unknown]

It seems that the article in The Economist isn't a true comparison of '2001' and 2001, but more of an evolution of AI.... I've read most of the postings here and perhaps we were carried away with all the geek-ness of the movie and the really kewl possibilities of neural computing and space travel.... and the reality of 2001 is just that... reality. We have items today that Clarke didn't foresee, but, typically, we always want what we can't have.... Happy Holidays and peace to all

"prevailing scientific wisdom.."?

[neoevans]

Who did he ask for this "wisdom"? The increasing number of AI researchers would be pretty upset if they heard there was no hope for AI, their holy-grail. I recommend to anyone who doubts the inevitibility of AI to read Ray Kurzweil's, "The Age of Spiritual Machines" and/or check out http://www.kurzweilai.net/index.html?flash=2 The way technology has evolved over the last 100 years, if computers aren't SMARTER than humans in the next 50 years, it's only because we've destroyed ourselves.

Re:(not) Chris Black

[Plebis]

Actually, his name is Lewis Black.

He is funny as hell, though.