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Linux PDA Part Deux
PolarCow writes: "Everyone's favorite Linux powered PDA retailer is back. Empower Technologies/LinuxDA are releasing a new variant of Linux-powered PDA. The new one is called the PowerPlay V. Its hardware is comparable to that of the Palm Vx. Thin, rechargable and with an enhanced display. I'm salivating already."
..From the product info page:
DataSync Program Only Available in MS Windows Platform
?
air and light and time and space
why does the Slashdot crowd get so excited when some random gadget runs Linux? do people think it has the same features as the i386 version?
an i386 OS (like Windows or Linux) needs to be crippled all over the place before it will run on a PDA or some similarly tiny device. why do people assume that the best OS for the server/desktop is the best OS for the PDA?
i'd rather have a ground-up PDA OS, myself. it's not like you can usefully share code between PDA Linux and regular Linux anyway.
I think PDAs are a great idea, and that everyone should have one. But PDAs have a number of flaws.
1) If everyone is meant to have one, surely it should act as some sort of communications device too? Manufacturers are starting to pick up on this with phone/PDA devices such as the Nokia Communicator or Cybiko, but more effort should be put into this area of the market rather than just the OS.
2) Bring prices down! I really can't understand the prices of PDAs, and that's why I don't have one. For a tiny thing with a color screen and 16MB of RAM they expect me to pay $300? Nuts.
Perhaps Linux will help slash the prices, but do the OS and applications really suck up most of the $300? I doubt it. In fact, I'd imagine most of the costs of the typical PDA are thanks to giant R&D budgets and weird non standard components. Not to mention those expensive screens..
Using Linux in an embedded setting is a start. But until we have a reasonably well functioned PDA for under $99, the majority of the population will not own one. And nor will I.
mogorific carpentry experiments
You can... but who the hell would want to? Buy a bunch of used pentiums or 486s from your local computer shop for a third of the price, and you've got something that not even 30 of these running together would do.
__________________________________________
Take comfort in your ignorance.
Grandmaster Plague
At 99 dollars, I've got cash to blow to be the first on the block to get a cool gadget. If it sucks, I'll sell it to some jackoff like myself on e-bay for 85 plus 20 shipping.
__________________________________________
Take comfort in your ignorance.
Grandmaster Plague
From simply running Linux/DA on a Palm V or Vx?
This page has good pix and stats for the PowerPlay V, though they're all CG. So does this thing really exist, and if so, why? Why not simply load Linux DA O/S for Palm onto a Palm Vx and get all the benefits of a Linux palmtop, including Windows-only desktop synchronization?
Don't get me wrong—this all looks interesting, but if it's going to be based on cloned last-generation-Palm hardware, and it won't work with a Linux desktop, why is it important or appealing to anyone?
Every PDA I've seen until now, comes with connectivity to MS Outlook on MS Windows, but none (including the Linux-based ones) come with connectivity to KArm and Kab.
Although I welcome Linux on PDAs, I think it's not really the major issue at hand. What we need is connectivity to KDE.
Is the one I have now, the Psion Revo - Of course it's not linux, nor WinCE - It's EPOC - an OS made for small devices - The revo is the best I've EVER tried - I've had three palmtops, and I've tried the HP jornada handheld (too big) - the Revo is just right. The fact that it has a keyboard makes the difference (I know the HP has too, but the device is too bulky).
It's about 200 US$
If I need to do linux stuff on it, I just use VNC for EPOC (get it here (downloads - bottom).
Ok, the sync could be better, but you can't have it all.
Any technology distinguishable from magic, is insufficiently advanced.
- Poor Input methods. It is annoying to try to write everything into it. What PDAs really need are voice recognition.
- Poor connectivity. No one wants to plug them in. They should communicate using RF. They need to have at least 50KB/s wireless bandwidth so that you can get real information when you need it.
- The batteries should last a lot longer. They should probably operate for a week between charges. 3 days might be acceptable.
- The screens are not readable enough. When it's 75dpi in full color then we're getting somewhere.
All this obviates the need for faster processors and a much better cellular network. Obviously the PDAs should have built in phones and have a standard for exchanging data with everything from large databases on the Internet to other PDAs on the street. Until we get a lot closer to this point all PDAs should be called PDBCs: Personal, Digital, Ball & Chains.Still doesn't impress me; I'm not going to buy a linux PDA just because it is a linux PDA - until it does more, or at least untill it will sync with my Mac and my Linux box, it has no advantages over Palm OS.
The reason I have a linux box is because it is the best for what I need it for; this same doctorine applies to PDAs; untill Linux PDAs DO SOMETHING better, I can't see them existing as anything other than a niche item
What impact does this have in terms of the user experience and/or the developer experience? Does having it run linux make some applications easier to write, etc.?
I ordered their Power Play III. They said it would take six to eight weeks to ship.
They charged my credit card within one day.
Eight weeks later, I still had not heard anything, after emailing them twice.
Finally, they responded to my email, and told me that my PDA would ship on the 19th of November, and that it would take an additional week to arrive.
They would not give me a tracking number, no matter how many times I emailed.
After the week was up, the PDA had still not arrived. I waited another three days, and still nothing.
In the meantime, I had ordered the Sharp Zaurus SL-5000D, and I got it in eight days.
I therefore wrote to the sales and info people at Empower Technologies, and I told them that I no longer wanted the PowerPlay III. They said they would issue me a refund, and since FedEx *still* had not delivered the PowerPlay III, that they would have FedEx return it directly to them and then issue me a refund.
A day later, and two days after I got my SL-5000D, FedEx delivered it. I checked the Tracking Number to see that FedEx had delivered it somewhere else first, but apparently Empower didn't see fit to check that.
So now I had a PowerPlay III that I no longer wanted, after being assured that Empower would have it directed back to them.
I wrote them again, and they said *I* was responsible for shipping it back to them. Furthermore, I was to insure it, and then give them a tracking number!! Needless to say, I was rather upset (since they wouldn't give me one), and wrote them a nice but firm email. They changed their tune, and then told me that I would get "reimbursed" for the shipping.
The next day, a FedEx guy showed up at my house (I was at work) to pick up the PowerPlay. Empower had called FedEx for a pick up order, but they did not tell me first!! Since I was at work, the package wasn't ready.
Then they said they would have FedEx pick it up again. The package stayed between my doors waiting for FedEx to return for another week. They never did.
Finally, I dropped it in a FedEx box, and it was redelivered to me. I got very upset at that point, and wrote to Empower that they had better call for FedEx pick up, and have them meet me. They have finally done that, and as of this morning, the package is on its way back to Empower. I checked "Bill To Sender" on the FedEx form, and the FedEx guy took it even though there was no account number.
I have yet to see how long it will take to get my refund, but I am not holding my breath!!!
In short, while more expensive, the Sharp Zaurus SL-5000D was a much better product, from a much more reliable company.
libertarianswag.com
Runs an OS that looks like a clone of PalmOS but without the ability to run palm apps. Sure it's open source. But do you really need that in a PDA?
Only syncs with Win (even palm syncs with Mac and Win).
Why even bother? These people seem to be showing even less innovation than Palm.
I just cant see a resaon why anyone (except a small minorty) would want this. They could have atleast had a sceen like the Handera 330.
*sigh*
This looks very similar to the Vtech Helio in terms of memory (2MB flash, 8MB SDRAM) and display (160x160 greyscale). The Helio lacks IRDA, but makes up for it with a 75MHz RISC processor with proper MMU as opposed to the Powerplay's 16MHz DragonBall. The Helio can also run Linux, but comes preloaded with Vtechs own VT-OS.
The Helio is also keenly priced. Brits can pick them up for £49.99 from the Carphone Warehouse, whilst you chaps across the pond can get them from a number of sources (often for less than $50, apparently).
You don't want to know what kernel, OS, etc your PDA is running
You just want it to "A" you in managing your "PD" !
Okay. I've owned a palmpilot before.. I've used them.... and they work fine for what they were designed for.
HEre's what I want to know...
What sorts of cool things can anyone do with one of these power handhelds? ipaq, etc (I don't know many). What's the nerd incentive here? I mean, just running linux on a $500 device is pointless if it has no purpose.
So.. I ask you, linux based or not, what cool shit can you do with a PDA nowadays? Let's hear some real examples.. not 'theoretically you could do blah blah'.
Unlike WinCE and PalmOS, there is no single variant of GNU/Linux on PDAs, and the variety is more likely to increase than to consolidate. Some of them run X and a common widget library like Gtk+ or FLTK, some don't and run QT on the framebuffer. One distribution may use the large glibc 2.2, a different one uses a reduced micro-libc. Of course the PDAs run GNU/Linux on different architectures. Some might even choose BSD instead of Linux for the kernel, or not even a Unix-like OS.
It's simply impossible for an ISV to provide off-the-shelf software for GNU/Linux PDAs of any kind. The user won't install a different widget library or even an X server to run the software. He won't install a statically-linked binary of several megabytes in size. A Java engine is still too large at least for the less powerful PDAs.
No, he should only need to install the _content_ and use it with some kind of standardized application - an email client, a web browser, an addressbook, a PIM, a media player, even a geographical map viewer for GPS or navigation.
Today it's sheer incredible how proprietary data formats and protocols have established especially on PDAs, without anyone complaining about it. Exchange data with a desktop PIM? Read a book? Store news from a Web site for offline reading? In any case you'll need a special proprietary application on either the PDA or your desktop (Windoze) PC, or even on both. And all you care about is content, as much as you want to read Slashdot or some other web sites instead of just playing with Mozilla, Galeon, Konqueror, IE, Opera or whatever your favorite Web browser would be.
Fortunately since both PalmOS and WinCE have their market share and GNU/Linux PDAs beginning to appear, there is no single handheld platform with a market share large enough to ignore anything else. So hopefully content vendors will discover that they'll only reach a larger customer base by either providing proprietary data formats and closed-source applications for a dozen of systems, or by using free specifications for their data which can be used on independent applications.
Therefore it's especially the lowest-end GNU/Linux PDAs which contribute to the need of standards. An iPAQ, a Yopy or a Zaurus could easily have two or three different toolkits installed. A VR3 or a LinuxDA certainly can't.
I realize I would probably have had the same troubles as you.. but in hindsight.. would you not have been better off to simply refuse the fedex shipment? Or can you do that.
The links to get the Linux files for dt and the
kernel/image don't work. Does anyone have a
mirror or another source for them? I picked a
helio up at Staples for $50, and would like to
try to get it installed.
There is no reason why an embedded system should not boot a Linux kernel. That's exciting for exactly the same reason that a 16MHz 386 desktop with 4MB RAM booting Linux 0.99 was exciting. There may be more appopriate systems for PDAs, but I believe that Linux is currently the only free kernel to run on PDAs.
"Hardly used" will not fetch you a better price for your brain.
By "don't rely on economies of scale" I mean these benefits apply regardless of the size of code or system resources available. Not exactly the most precise or accurate terminology to use; mea culpa.
"Hardly used" will not fetch you a better price for your brain.
You can mod me down to -9 but you can't hide the truth.
Linux is an open source project that is poorly managed. Why? Because it is Open Sores. Eclipse on the other hand may be open source, but it is managed and developed solely by OTI people. How do I know that? Well, I went on the mailing list and I gave them a suggestion and they told me to fuck off and go to sourceforge.net. Why? Because a great thing like Eclipse cannot be developed by god knows who. OTI people know each other and are familiar with each other's coding style. If the god knows who starts to mess up the code or worse, the architecture, Eclipse will be as good as a 20 year old TV. Why does Eclipse need to be developed this way? Because it is a user friendly application and cannot be as fucked up as Linux(I say so because Linux crashed 5 times in one day and WinXP hasn't crashed even once. Security? get a damn Hardware firewall!). IBM did a very smart decision: They give Eclipse for free, but they sell WSAD for $3000. What do I conclude from my experience: Eclipse is 100% not OpenSores.
Oh and don't forget: Open Source Software is not a fucking religion, it is just an alternative business model.
I'm a huge Linux fan. I've been using it for years. It's on every machine that I own. I have one machine that dual boots with Windows 98 so that I can play games (yes, I have Wine running with full GL support but I still get better framerates under Windows). I also have a Palm Vx. I could not not be less impressed by this device. Who cares if it runs Linux? It looks like all they did was try and build a PalmOS clone from it. How crappy would Linux be if it's sole purpose was to mimic Windows? As mentioned above, you don't get Palm App support and these geniuses can't even create some Linux connectivity software. Not to mention that if you want to buy Linux DA stand-alone from these people you'll be charged as much as for Palm OS 4.1, but apparently without benefitting from any of it's features? Back to the drawing board guys.
Fact is, unless these LinuxDA devices costs under $99, and have a wealth of applications available for them, they are dead in the water. People want a lot more from a PDA than a glorified mobile phone without the phone capability these days!
Well, I'm ok with this, but just wondering if this is like the last attempt they made (ads in Linux on their demo?).
Monkeys are almost as smart as regular humans. They even started a college fund to help them go to school. Soon they might be able to figure out how to vote.
First of all, companies who charge an arm and a leg for thier devel apps are killing themselves. Mainly, it's MS who's doing this. The last I checked, thier WinCE devel platform was about $1000 .
Go on haead, try and find free apps for it... All app makers HAVE to charge way bloated prices for thier programs.
Josh Crawley
Really, what is all the hype about? Sure, I can see a few uses for a certain minority. But I can hardly find anything that is useful or even remotely interesting to me. There is absolutely no cool factor...
Haha, I'm glad you live in a dream world where this WORKS. They won't even consider letting you contest payment for this. I work for Chase's card member services, I've seen so many people try to pull this. The fact is, if you order something, as long as you get it, and it is what you ordered, you're paying for it. It doesn't matter if it took a year, you have it now. Any issues you have with returning it are now your responsibility, your credit card company has already payed these people, you should have refuted the charges a loooonnng time ago.
I asked the same thing of the Yopy and and Agenda people, with exactly the same response... none.
Their loss, not mine.
It's not that these tools don't exist, it's that the vendors don't see the target market clearly enough to want to use them.
I know I'm browsing at 3, but did someone miss this?
Source code for Linux Kernel(CD) -------- US$20.00
It can't cost that much to produce the CD, so what are they charging for?
Nikkos
Is it, because they don't trust in our shiny new European currency? Hey, Linux is more popular over here, than in the US! Sell a PowerPlay 3 with a SDK CD for about 100 Euro, and apps shouldn't be an issue within no time...
I've been hacking around with the PowerPlay III (the Palm III) clone for about a month. My notes are at http://www3.sympatico.ca/howlettfamily/linuxda/no
In summary, I'm happy with the hardware but have serious reservations about the linuxda gui library and related apps. For hacking around, this thing is great, but I wouldn't keep my address book or calendar on linuxda until they fix the reset button and at least release the information so we can build a linux desktop sync app.
For those who question the need for/usefullness of linux on a PDA - maybe you have not had the dubious pleasure of working with the PalmOS memory manager, or all the bizarre PalmOS translations of libc.
later,
Andrew.
I too waited the 6-9 weeks for my preorder. I called them on their posted phone number on their site and talked to friendly charming and concerned women who responded to my request about the delay in shipping she then gave me an email and confirmed the fedex ground shipping and gave me a tracking number I guess that it never acccured to some one to call be polite and ask for these things
ps It pays to be firm but not threating I also like my unit I recieved
Cut! Slash! Hack!
I have this pda also. I cannot get it to sync with win98. I emailed Empower they asked if my comports work. Of course they do. That is all the assistance I recieved from them. I emailed the person that did the previous review on this pda and they said their's didn't sync either. If anyone has any idea what is wrong with it email me at tekwil@yahoo.com
The Arkie Libertarian
Is the Agenda out? Any good news?
I am a not-so-proud owner of a PowerPlay III as well.
Not only did I have the same shipping problems as stated above (charged the day after, shipped 9 weeks later), I was foolish enough to insist that this was not acceptable and threatened to place a claim with my CC company after 8 weeks. At this point they relented, and refunded my first purchase, and re-placed the charge so that I would have another 60 days of protection from my CC company.
So, one hurdle solved. I got a tracking number when the PDA was finally shipped on the 19th, and was able to watch it's delivery from that point on, no complaints there, FedEx did their job just fine in this case.
Upon opening the package I found that the PDA I had received had a torn screen protector. "No biggie" I think, and proceed to try out the PDA.
Well, after a few hours of trying it, I realize that the hand writing on this thing is absolute CRAP! The only thing I had really heard about these was that the handwriting recognition was good, but it takes me close to 20 tries to get a T reliably, and ironically enough, this is using the Palm style T, and it's not on their sheet. Then I go for an H. Oh god, after close to 50 tries, nada. I give up and go for the writing guide, ok, now I get hs about 1/2 the time I type them in. Time for an E. 8 tries, with their "Handwriting Guide" right in front of me, to get it to produce the letter e. All told, the word "the" takes me close to 1 day to complete.
After many hours of practice, I'm proud to say I can now complete the word "the" in just under 20 seconds. So much for their handwritting recognition.
At this point I'm hoping I can salvage my investment by flashing it with a copy of Palm from my dead Palm3x. Palm flashing tool doesn't even recognize the thing, so I ask Empower how. 3 days later, and the answer is: We don't support PalmOS. Try again, this time simply asking for their flashing tool (they promised OS updates, they better have one) and never get an answer.
Fine, I muck around with the thing for a few more days, trying to get better at writing on it, but mostly end up playing games. Guess what? Even the games are buggy beyond usefullness. Take Minesweeper for example, simple enough game, you click squares, sometimes mark them as mines, and sometimes place question marks on them, how hard is it to get this right? Evidently too hard for Empower Technologies. Marking a flag consists of holding down the schedule button while tapping the square. Works fine, square is not flagged as a mine. Only now you're stuck, because the moment you let go of that scheduler button, you know what happens?? The scheduler pops up. Annoying, I think, but I close it and tap on the minesweeper game again to go back to it.. Only, it's gone, the game is reset when you run something else.
Ok, so here's a PDA with hand writing recognition I can't use, games that I can't play, and flashable memory I can't flash.
All right time to invoke that 30 days from shipping return policy. I email them requesting the appropriate info needed to send it back for a refund. Their reply (The end of their buisness day the next day):
"According to our refund policy, you may return any item from our store in new condition with original packaging and accessories. This means that you are able to open the box that contains the PowerPlay III PDA; however, if the plastic shrinkwrap around the PDA is open, you will not be able to return the product as it will no longer be in its original packaging. (http://www.linuxda.com/store/refundpolicy.htm)"
News to me, their refund policy says nothing about the condition of the packaging. So I tell them so, demanding my refund. I never get a reply.
Call me a sap, I wait almost a week before trying again. In this time I find that the screen is not accepting input in the lower left quarter of the number input area (I hadn't bothered to try numbers until this point) This time I try a bit harder, mentioning that they shipped me not only a defective PDA but a damaged one, and mention again my dissatisfaction with their software.
2 days later, no reply, I try again. I finally get a reply. Same as above. I'm getting very pissed off.
I reply to this, AGAIN stating that this is a flat out lie, and that the unit is broken, defective and that I refuse to pay for it.
Again expecting no responce, I initiate a charge with my credit card company. I figure that even without Empower's help I can return the acursed thing.
The next day I get an email saying they are "considering [my] request" and will let me know after the weekend.
After a rather anxious weekend, I get another email stating "we will provide you with the In-Warranty Service. The standard RMA policy for the In-Warranty Service is where you return the faulty product to us, and in turn, we provide you with a new product in exchange."
Not at all what I want, so I call the credit card company to verify I'm protected against this. Sad thing is, I evidently have no "company doesn't honor return policy" insurance, and they insist this is the best deal I will get.
So, after paying for the PDA, paying currency conversion charges to my credit card company twice, I am forced to pay another $15 to ship the PDA back to them in exchange for a new PDA, less the screen cover.
Now I can only hope there is a local linux freak not opposed to paying a premium for a POS PDA without a 9 week shipping delay.
The moral of the story? STAY THE F*CK AWAY FROM THESE GUYS!!! In fact, I would be a lot happier if slashdot quit gaving them all this good press too.
"So.. I ask you, linux based or not, what cool shit can you do with a PDA nowadays? Let's hear some real examples.. not 'theoretically you could do blah blah'."
http://www.refalo.com/palm/interactive.htm
http://infocom.gerf.org
Download a few IF games. You'll be addicted instantly.
So ya wanna email me, eh? Change