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Fast Track to a CS Degree?
kyrex asks: "it's been 5
years since I've been working in the tech industry and I've make
great progress. My salary has grown by an annual rate of about 50%
and I'm currently working as a consultant in a leading consulting
firm. But not having received any formal education in Computer
Science, and therefore having no degree will be a problem for
further progress. I've considered many options but they all take
time: at least 3 years. I've been programming since I was 12
(I'm currently 24) and have read hundreds of CS books. I think that I
can easily complete a CS degree in 1 year. I want to know if there
are universities/institutions out there that offers computer
professionals like me a fast track to a CS degree that will be
recognised as such by other universities (so that I can continue
with a MSc afterwards)"
well for my cs degree i had to take the calculus sequence calc I, II & III. that's 1.5 yrs there, not to mention the other dependencies between classes; like post-calc stats i had to take after calc...
your best bet is to maybe CLEP your way out of some of the other classes if you're really bright and study hard. but doing it in 1 yr is un-reasonable.
it's still worth the effort i think...
Most schools make you take about 1.5-2 yrs of prereq clasess if you dont allready have a degree in a non-related field. The ones that dont that have come up require you to be intensifyingly bright (ACT 32+, high iq, etc.).
There is definetly more to a CS degree than simply being able to program. Other courses in the arts, sciences and languages are usually required. The point of a CS degree is not to produce programmers; it is produce well rounded students who can apply their knowledge to more fields than just computer programming. If you want a quick and easy degree just go to some kind of trade school.
That's why a *good* CS department teaches theory rather than practice.
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
I don't think you survived the dot-com boom unscathed because you spent six years in college, you were just in the right place at the right time. Don't you think it's a little arrogant to assume that everyone with a degree will get to keep their job and those without them won't? There are people without degrees who are far more talented than you may ever be, and I'm saying that without even knowing you, which is ballsy but justified. :)
"It's here, but no one wants it." - The Sugar Speaker
Ah the words of someone who isn't married a big borther type corperate whore. When you work for small organizations nobody expects you to be better than you are. But when you work for a huge organization (and you have to assume that you want to stay there for this example) nobody knows how good you are. Thus the degree is required to advance past one of those glass celings. It plays into the stereotype that 'there are a bunch of idiots with degrees, and they all get paid better than I do'. I work for the worlds third largest software mfr. (at least that is what it says at the quarterly confrence call) I don't want to leave the company to better my pay. Here, I get a company car, a REALLY nice benefits package, and my fair share of pay. Of course I want more, but I'm not going to quit here, and go to work for someone who will double my pay. The double in pay doesn't offer the security that this place does. That is why, even with experience, you need to have a degree. So that you can make more money, with out haveing to job hop every year or so.
For CS in particular, any university worth the effort of attending will probably require you to complete the first-year courses in all other sciences - physics, chemistry, biology. Plus first year courses in mathematics. Plus the humanities - literature, humanities, etc. You aren't expected to become an expert in any of these fields, but you should learn enough to be able to recognize when someone is trying to sell you a pack of lies in an election, in a courtroom (as a juror), or as the next-of-kin when a loved one is seriously ill. That's the stuff that ultimately matters, not just knowing how to write LALR(a) grammars.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
... did you know that getting a CS degree has very little to do with PROGRAMMING?
;-). Lots of calculus, and the hideous "discrete structures" courses. ::shudder::
I am in the same boat as you, and when I attended [a state school in Florida well known for computer science], I was surprised that the focus is entirely on the Science of Computing. Sure, some classes require you to know how to program in a certain language, but that is not the focus. The focus is on MATH. At least in the first years (that's as far as I got
In short, I don't see how a human could possibly get a CS degree in one year.
"And like that
of a CS degree, congratulations. As anyone will tell you though, a veneer needs a solid backing to stand on it own. What the backing consists of is the liberal arts (well roundedness), fundamental mathematics (Calculs, Matrix, Discrete, and stat), and exposure to the science and engineering side of the business (logic circuit design, followed by computer architecture).
Even if you have read through many of the senior level texts, you probably didn't fully absorb the subject material without the fundamentals. It is amazing to re address a subject when you have a better grasp of the fundamentals. The subject looks so much clearer.
Now that doesn't mean you can't have a rewarding career as a programmer. Many of your co workers will not have fully grasped the subject material on their degrees, thus putting you on a equal footing. When it comes time for promotions, or finding a new job though you will be much better off with the degree.
If he started at 19 with no experience it is not unlikely that the original pay was closer to $20k. Which would leave him at about 100k now. Nothing to sneeze at. If he played his finances right he could retire early. Since that would be possible I suggest getting the CS degree only if there is a desire to continue in the field for enjoyment.
My company requires a Bachelors degree to move into the higher levels of our IT organization. This is not because it makes you a better system or network admin but it show two things, you are willing to stick with something (your education) to better yourself and that you know a little more than just how to use a PC.
My CS degree did not come close to preparing me to become a network admin but those years of math taught me good problem solving skills and occasionally I actually do use the Calculus. When getting a degree though you learn about more than just computers, you learn a little literature and history. Although this will not help you program, it does give perspective and rounds out the tech skills. You also may learn a little accounting and business law, skills that you will need as you move up the ladder and need to worry about budgets and personnel issues. These are just a few examples.
A college education is not for everyone but it is a good way to round out your knowledge base and the parties are cool.
I can understand the desire to have a degree, there are institutions that really want you to have that piece of paper that says you're in debt to a student loan processing center. I personally am in a similar situation with only a two year degree (electronics) and 7 years of IT experience. Here's my question though? Why do you want a CS Degree? Really, most employers are looking for *A* degree, it doesn't usually have to be a CS degree perse, especially with your experience.
If you're looking to advance your current career I'd say an MIS Degree (Management of Information Systems) would look better on your resume than a CS Degree.
It's been my experience that CS programs teach people to be programmers. How many CIO's and IT Directors are there that have come from the programming pool? Less than 1/2? Yes, programming is one road into an IT Career, but it certainly isn't the only one, or even the road that is the quickest.
All that said... a Degree isn't like an MCSE, you have to put in some time to get that piece of paper, but it'll be worth the time. Take the three years and learn something that will stick with you, rather than the current flavor of the day programming language.
What if it is just turtles all the way down?
Why is this different from someone asking if there's a fast way to a medical degree for instance?
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
You've been programming since a tyke, so that means that you've lived most of your life in front of the computer screen. Kudos for enjoying what you do. Sounds like you do it well.
That being the case, why waste your time getting a CS degree? If you're going to go to university at this point, why not go for one of the sciences instead? You may find that this opens up areas which you never expected. eg. computational biology, etc.
Doesn't have to be scientific in fact. Music, arts, philosophy, whatever. You think learning more about computers is really going to make your life that much better at this point of your career? I think not. Do something a bit different, and you may find it surprisingly rewarding.
It's not the paper; it's the wealth of information you get on your way to earning the paper.
I own my own consulting business, and it is true that my day-to-day contracting has a lot to do with the languages I learned after I left academia. BUT:
The problems I have to solve are many and varied, and often I find myself applying knowledge from my CS classes 15 years ago: "hmm... didn't we study a quadtree-like data structure which would be good for that problem?" "isn't that just a binary matrix multiplication?" And so on.
Academic CS is to practical CS what physics is to architecture: you need the theory to make a well-built product, and you need the product to make the theory meaningful.
True, you don't need the piece of paper to get the theory. But the piece of paper usually proves that you've been exposed to it, and even an average student will absorb things by osmosis.
I'm a bloodsucking fiend! Look at my outfit!
Here it is, what school really means:
- High school gets you into college based on grades/activities
- College gets you that piece of paper every good job needs
- The next five years depend on that piece of paper for each job
- The rest of your life is based on the experience you have since you left college
And if you get a masters, it'll help you in the first 7 years after school (so going back after 7 years on the job is pretty pointless).Sure, there are exceptions to each of these (ie - some jobs require a masters, but I think that's bubkis), and, yeah, school means more than that (like learning how to learn, etc...), but thats the "big picture". At least, in the 'big company' aspect. If you want to go into research or teaching, then its a different story.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
If its one thing I've learned after pissing away $20,000 after 2.5 years, its that college has very little to do with the aquasistion of knowledge. What you already know will be of little help, and in fact will make the classes that much more boring. The main thing college CS is designed for is to see how much BS you can put up with, not what you know. This makes it unlikely that you will be able to get out of much more that 1 and a half semesters of classes by cleping out of them.
:/
I finally decided to quit after realizing the majority of the time that I was supposed to be using on doing homework was being used instead by me going info-mining looking for some scrap of new information, especially information the professors and TA's out-right refused to even talk about, even though the information would be on topic for the class.
It seems like University CS departments have become corporate meat-grinders, they just happen to teach a little along the way. I have been told by people in the feild the corps spend about 9 months teaching the grads what they universities _should_ have taught them.
Maybe the diplomas should say "I can put up with 4 years of BS in CS without losing it."
Any sufficiently advanced influence is indistinguishable from control.
I think that's a little arrogant to think that companies shouldn't consider a college degree when making hiring decisions.
If you've ever interviewed anyone for a job (or talked to anyone ever for any reason), you should know that people fudge all kinds of things on resumes to make themselves look better. A college degree is something that represents a substantial sustained work effort.
The attitude that you are too smart for college is not too far off from the attitude that you are too smart to work with non-technical people. It's a kind of superiority complex that I see from time to time in geeks (possibly as a result of a painful high school experience?). I'd just like to point out that if you think you are better than someone because they used to think they were better than you, then what sets you apart from them?
Welcome to the REAL world. Most companies can't afford
to give you 50% raises every year. 15% is a GREAT
raise! Look at other fields like teaching where they
go 6 years before they see a 6% raise!
The only nominal way you will see beyond a "percentage"
raise is by jumping ship. If you like your job and
like the people you work with -- think about that prospect long
and hard right now. Jobs are NOT secure right now ANYWHERE in
the technical trades - so if you feel secure, that in itself
has some value right now.
Have you compiled your kernel today??
Kyrex,
Well this is kind of weird, since I am also 24 and have a BS in Computer and Information Science, as well as being halfway through to a Master of Science in Software Engineering.
Let me get straight to the point: your underlying assumption is incorrect. Having a BS or BA in Computer Science will give you no more advantage than you already have! Don't get me wrong, it is an invaluable asset to me - but in my experience the main benefit of having the degree is the fact that you will come out of the institution with the ability to research and learn new languages easily - this is what they teach you after all! In the IT field, new technologies emerge annually. The degree will enable you to use these new technologies as if you were an "old hand" and had been using them for years.
In terms of salary or competitive advantage, the Master's degree will most certainly give you both a $20k salary boost and a position above the peons in most any company.
Just my $.02. Anyone else agree/disagree?
I'm a 2000 man.
This is absolutely correct. Your BS or Bachelor of Science indicates that you have completed a certain set of requirements relatively common across all types of degrees that indicate they are of this type. For me, this included a few Chemistry classes, a few Physics classes, a good many Mathematics classes, various humanities and social science classes (various psychology classes, a literature class on Sci-Fi, and quite a few foreign language courses in my case) as well as classes in other disciplines such as Computer Engineering, Electrical Engineering (logic gates, anyone?) to name but a few.
As was mentioned above, you may be a crack programmer, but that's not all that's required for a degree, which is why you need a degree to continue to progress on your career ladder. The tasks that most probably await you will require certain degrees of critical thinking that are enhanced with the variety of non-CS classes that are required for the BS degree.
Another thought: do you have any degree? I assume you do not, but if you *did* many CS Masters programs (for example that at Chicago's DePaul University) will allow you to either take or test through a variety of core classes that essentially determine if you have what it takes for the Masters courses, if so - you're home free and on your way to your Masters. If not, you simply take the classes you need (shouldn't take more than a couple semesters) and then you're on your way. Again, I believe this only works if you have an undergraduate degree of some sort already.
You may be a good programmer with lots of experience, but I doubt your job requires you to work with all the subjects you need to get a CS degree. Think about it. You need Computer Architecture, Artifical Intelligence, Databases (more than SQL...), Software Engineering, Networks, Analysis of Algorithms (if you have experience here you're job is one in a million), Operating Systems, Computer Graphics and other electives, all at the very least.
Then you have two semesters of Chemistry, Physics, Calculus 1-3 and Discrete Math, Statistics, English, Tech Writing, 2 Poli Sci, 2 History, 2 Humanities, 4xPhys Ed, blah blah blah.
Just because you know how to program doesn't mean you can push all this crap into one year. That's like taking 60+ hour semesters.
What you should do is take some of your savings (you did save, right?) and use it as a buffer for you to do school for 3 years, interning during the summers or working part time. College is a blast
I think you are wrong, not in your conclusion but in your premises.
Academic CS departments do not need to keep up with the latest iteration of C++ or Java and should not even try. Their job is to impart the fundamental knowledge of algorithms and systems that allow graduates to adapt to any particular application.
Self-taught gurus often have knowledge that is a mile wide but an inch deep, or they may be highly specialized in one particular field and know nothing whatsoever of anything else.
CS graduates avoid these two extremes, and can pick up new languages and concepts faster because of their grounding in basic science.
As an analogy close to my experience, it would be theoretically possible for a non-physician to become so skilled at a certain narrow field (for example reading mammograms) that most of the time the results would be as good as a board-certified doctor. However, every once in a while a really tough case comes along that requires knowledge of basic human medical science to interpret and integrate correctly. This is why you wouldn't want anyone but a doctor reading your wife's mammograms.
That's why we have the MD and by the same token, that's why we have CS degrees. However, the consequences of a mistake are rarely so dire as in medicine, and so the dilettantes and autodidacts of the CS world are free to flit from company to company, leaving half-baked useless projects in their wake wherever they go.
-ccm
Too much Law; not enough Order.
You presume that because you have are good at computer programming, you can easily finish a CS degree in one year - in essence, you propose that you know pretty much all that a CS major knows. But what is taught in a CS degree is FAR DIFFERENT than what you know having programmed for however many years. This also is precisely the reason why your advancement potential MAY be limited because you DON'T have a CS degree - the business world recognizes the difference.
This has been said already in this forum, but I think it worth pointing out again.
The difference between tech school and college is tech school teaches you how to do a particular task, and college teaches you how to think about things.
When you go to college and take your first CS class, I think you'll be surprised at how inapplicible all your years of on-the-job programming experience actually are. A real CS program at an accredited school is not interested in churning out programmers which will succeed in the business world, as would be a tech school. Rather, they are interested in producing individuals who have the capacity to solve problems which haven't been even described yet. People who can look at a problem and see multiple ways to solve it. People that are adaptable.
Of course, schools don't always succeed in this lofty task, but that's not the point. The thing for you to remember is that higher education, in and of itself, is worth quite a lot more than the piece of paper you get at the end. Do not take a college CS class and worry yourself with, "how will this class help me in my next job," you will drive yourself nuts. The benefits are a little more abstract than that, but also more rewarding.
I really shouldn't be one to talk: I don't have a degree myself. I attended University of Minnesota pursuing a IT/CS degree for 2 1/2 years before getting lured into the business world, never to return and finish my degree. I can tell you this though, the knowledge I gained from my time in college definitely, without question, puts me ahead of those people with only tech school or no higher education.
DaC
Its unfortunate that so many people value pieces of paper with writing on them.
It's unfortunate that so many people think that college is just about getting a piece of paper.
I've worked for the CS dept of a university for 7 years as a sysadm, researcher, and research assistant so I know a bit about CS degrees. In every case I've seen, someone coming from industry to CS has gaps in their knowledge. I'm sure you are a bright guy but being self taught you probably have great depth of knowledge in areas you have used and suprisingly large gaps in other areas. It will take some time and effort to cover all the areas they expect you to master. With your background some of your courses will be slam dunks but others will kick your butt. It probably wouldn't be that hard for you to pass all the CS classes in a year except the second issue, core courses. You have to take English, History, Political Science, Math, lab science, and a few other odds and ends before you can get your Bachelor's degree. In grad school you can concentrate on just your major but in undergrad they make you take all the stuff you had in high school. Some of these classes might even be hard and take a lot of time away from your CS classes. If you really want a degree the best thing would probably be to take as many core and introductory courses as you can online or as night classes at a junior college then finish up your CS classes at a good university. If your ultimate goal is a MS or PhD than you shold get whatever bachelor's degree that will be the quickest so you can get into grad school sooner. If you get a MS in CS than whatever you get as a bachelor's degree won't matter much and some employers will even like it being different making you a more "rounded" individual. Whatever you decide to do, good luck!
I am so sick of the argument of "I would rather have tons of experience than just a college diploma". I personally have tons of experience AND a diploma (CS). How is my situation not better than just having on the job experience? Would you let someone who has not been through medical school (but has a couple of years of experience) perform surgery on you?
I also don't think people realize the value of getting a liberal education. There is far more to life than just banging away on a keyboard for 18 hours a day. I really enjoyed the non-technical classes I took in college (philosophy, music, social sciences, etc.) and I believe I have benefited greatly from having that experience.
I think people who use the experience v.s. degree argument are just trying to rationalize the fact that they don't have any structured education in the field they work in.
My CS degree didn't teach me any particular skill that has been practical in my software development career. Nonetheless, as an employer, I continue to use the presence of a solid CS degree on a resume as a good indicator. It correlates very well with the likelihood that the candidate will be an excellent developer. But that doesn't mean that the degree taught that person anything useful about the development of software.
If you want a degree, get it for yourself, not for your career. You'll be a better person when you get done, but not a better programmer.
And BTW, stop saying that you can complete a CS degree in one year. It makes you sound clueless, not clueful.
Eric Sink
Software Craftsman
>social skills. It was a problem that the
>university I attended (LaSalle University)
>offered NO challenge to me on any level, in any
>course.
Quite bluntly, if you couldn't find a challenge at a Christian Brothers' school, you either weren't looking very hard, or got *very* bad advice.
What faculty did you talk to about finding more challenging material? What did you do to go deeper into the material? What projects did you involve yourself in outside of class? Who did you talk to about taking upper division courses early.
The Christian Brothers are second only to the Jesuits as educators. It's *tough* to not get challenged around them . . .
hawk
Nothing can improve a geeks love life like access to a bunch of impresionable young women. This is the only reason to attend a university, in my opinion. Don't go for your career, or the "paper". Buy some nice clothes with all that salary, get a good haircut, decent cologne, be cool, and grade yourself on how many freshman you can lay in 3-4 years. There's something that might actually be worth the tuition money.
First, it should be of note where I am, how I got there, and why this may help others reading.
I am 19-years-old. My position, should you care, is Manager of Network Operations (CIO) for a 55-employee graphics/net concern in Kansas City.
I am a high-school drop-out, with no GED.
I make more then my mother, who has a BA, and has been working for 30+ years.
I regret every day that I never completed school. The reasons for my leaving are numerous, though focus mostly on boredom, and a rather intense hatred of teenage culture.
I left school with one-goal, to write comics.
I ended up working on computers.
For everyone listening, where I am now is not hard to get to in the computer industry. It's actually a straight-forward progression from one job to the next, moving quickly, and working like a japanese beaver to show your worth your wait.
I started at CompUSA, as the in-house Macintosh guy, when I had just turned 16, one month out of high-school. I actually planned on being a sales-clerk, but, when they found out I could fix Macs, they got wet, and gave me the job...
I low-balled my salary, meaning there was little risk for my employer, and worked there for three months.
I eventually came to meet a woman who as starting a consulting concern. She never asked my age, but offered me a job. They only learned I was 16 when I filled out the proper paper-work. They couldn't deny me the job at that point, as it would have been age-discrimiation.
For one-year, I worked 80+ hour weeks, learning everything I could by trailing my boss as he fixed things. I took no classes, but read patiently, and paid attention.
I was promoted to my current position 13 months after I started.
It's a terrible job.
I'm 19, with no education, which everyone knows, and thus, am often treated as such. Because I have no degree, I don't have a leg to stand on when in arguments. All I know is what I can guess would be true.
I can't tell you how many wasted hours I have spent fixing things that, were I to have a degree, I may never have broken. Borders is my drug of choice, as well as Fatbrain.com, and they eat up most of my salary. I have to spend as much time as possible reading what a CS major may have been given easily, and, because I have very-little frame of reference, lacking solid fundamentals, I often find myself relearning things again and again.
I want to return to school...badly. But, I'm in debt, after buying a good car, and getting some needed dental work done, and, leaving my job, or reducing my salary is not an option. Between a rock and a hard place, I'm stuck envious of the lazy life of college students, meanwhile, struggling to remain current so that a Devry kid doesn't steal my job.
Degrees aren't useful to employers in this industry. In every interview i have been in, the fact that I have no degree is never a concern. I have never been denied a position I applied for because of that, and most look favorably on my, self-motivation i guess you could call it.
But degrees can be useful to you. Having that stupid piece of paper gives you a grounded view of what you are doing, and confidence in your intelligence. You will doubt yourself less, and find more pathways open to you when you are doing whatever it is you love doing.
The foundation of CS should not be taken lightly, or shrugged off.
It's time to go job-hunting again, so I guess we'll see if this is all true in this economy...
wise the following: "The only reason most large companies require a degree, and don't just interview you for what you know and your experience, is because most of those people have degrees. If they had to suffer through 4-6 years of college, and the time and monetary commitment involved in doing that, you damn well are going to suffer just like they did. It's called 'revenge on the rest of humanity'." I've found most companies that required a degree to get anywhere (as opposed to basing everything on experience" are companies I don't want to work for anyway.
>I've been programming since I was 12 (I'm
>currently 24) and have read hundreds of CS
>books. I think that I can easily complete a CS
>degree in 1 year.
"I've been using microwave ovens since I was 12 and have read hundreds of books on using microwave ovens. I think I can easily complete a degree in high-energy physics in one year."
Okay, thats pushing the analogy a little far, but you get the point. Programming is a trade skill, period. Computer science is NOT about programming. I'm sorry I'm reacting so violently to this, but you've hit a *very* sore spot for me.
I do computer science for a living and I am a mathematician by trade and training. Yes, I can program and enjoy doing so, but this is not what makes me a "Computer Scientist". I also enjoy tinkering with old sports cars and have a decent grasp of mechanics. I certainly don't consider myself a qualified automotive engineer though.
You claim to have read "hundreds of CS" books; but have you really? Is there a chance they were programming and technology books? If you want a taste of what real "computer science" looks like, I happily recommend reading the following:
- Computational Complexity by Papidimitriou
- Automata Theory and Languages by Hopcroft and Ullman
- Compilers... I can't remember the whole name but its got a big picture of a dragon on the front. If you ask anyone in the business about 'the dragon book' they'll know what you mean... by Aho, Sethi and Ullman (I think).
- The Russell and Norvig AI book
- Any book on lambda-calculus and recursive function theory (I can't think of a good introductory-level text at the moment). Even better if it introduces semantics too.
Those will give you a feel for some of the areas that are considered "Computer Science". The ability to program will get you through first year; after that, its more about math and.. gasp... thinking, than it is about whipping up code.
Again, sorry for the rant, but I think Edsgar Dykstra (a famous Computer Scientist) summed it up best when he said:
"Computer Science is as much about computers as Astronomy is about telescopes".
Truer words were never spoken.
The real question that I always ask myself is: Would you want your physician testing out of many of their courses? Sure, going from a Ph.D. in the biological sciences to an M.D. in many schools will allow you to get out of some basic science courses by testing out or actually teaching, (which is actually harder than taking the course, but the first time you get up in front of your class to teach a course on your area of expertise is a hoot. Your classmates, if they don't know about your previous Ph.D. are looking at you like, what the hell?) but the real experience from working with patients and learning case studies comes from the the "practice" of medicine over time being exposed to as many varieties of pathologies as possible as well as learning the normal anatomy, physiology, pharmacology etc...etc...etc... AND the flow of the hospital environment, or how to interact in a classroom setting, how to interact on the floor with other medical personnel and most importantly patients.
This all also holds true for any "real" degree from a university. To get a real education, you have to spend the TIME and EFFORT to learn AND INTEGRATE the process of learning in a wider variety of disciplines than your discrete area of focus. Otherwise it is simply a certificate, or a degree from the university of phoenix.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
In the place that I work, several people who used to work here had college degrees in CS from respectable colleges. And you know what? They couldn't cut it AT ALL on the job. Sure, they knew the fundamentals, but they didn't know how to apply those to their work.
That is what things like internships and "the first job" are for. As hundreds of others have pointed out in this thread, college is not about getting, for example, the programming skills for the rest of your life. The idea is completely different. Colleges realize they are not trade schools, and nor can they replace on-the-job experience. But they provide something completely different.
Which makes them pretty much worthless on the job.
No, they have potential. They need to be trained for the specific job, just like an employee who never went to college. You do train your new employees, do you not?
A degree will only help to:
1) Get your foot in the door.
2) Back up the skills you actually have.
You forgot one:
3) Know how to learn.
I would argue that #3 is the most important, and what you are not allowing your new employees to do.
- (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
Earlier in this thread, someone was talking about how much getting a degree helps a person improve their social skills. Thank you for demonstrating the actual extent to which that is true. I hope it will be a valuable lesson for all concerned.
A company wants you to have a degree for a number of reasons:
1. It guarantees that you have had the breadth of exposure to your field that they think you need. You may say you are well rounded in your field, but are you? Degrees also require you to be proficient in other fields as well.
2. It shows that you can be given a hard task and complete it.
3. It provides a way to keep score. If you are doing good in school in relation to others in your field than you are good at what you do. If you do badly in relation to others, you are bad at what you do.
4. It decreases the company's risk that the person is an idiot.
5. People with degrees get more respect.
In response to good programmers who don't have degrees working with idiots with degrees, this exists, but you'll find it much more common that those with degrees are smarter (and more motivated) than those without. That's my experience.
ergo98, 'median' and 'average' are two different things. If four Canadian university students' IQs test at 111, 110, 109, and 118, their average IQ is 112. However, 75% of the students are below 112.
I've also seen lots of posts containing improper grammar, random (or missing) apostrophes, tense and singular/plural conflicts, and plain old misspellings.
It wouldn't take much of a metaphor to argue that proper spelling, grammar and mathematical understanding comprise the majority of what it takes to write a program.
You should rephrase and say, "Its not that hard for me". I should add that I had the same experience as you, I had a relatively easy time at gettting a job but I know too many others who haven't.
You're correct about knowing the right people and having the right skills. I was fortunate to work at a company that paid Co-Ops very well. I made more money before I got my degree than many people I know with Higher levels of education.
It probably depends alot upon the region.... I can say that the scenerio you describe is not the case for alot of people here in RTP and surrounding areas in North Carolina. I don't think things are "That bad"... but they seem to be a far cry from two years ago. You can always find exceptions to the rule.... I'm sure there are plenty of other companies doing as yours does, hiring without degrees but I'd have to guess that the number of those doing so has declined sharply. In 1998 I had a couple of offers in Charlotte that paid well and I was 2 and a half years credits shy of completing my degree. I am so glad I didn't take them though, alot has changed since then. Many of the companies around here that were so eager to hire don't seem to be around anymore.
I'm like you, I feel pretty damn stable and if for some God foresaken reason I didn't have a job tomorrow I'm pretty confident I'd have another soon... mainly I'm confident in what I know how to do, secondly, I am confident because I have a degree in CS.
Please don't misunderstand, I think there are tons of people out there without degrees that know more about what I do than I could ever hope to. There are so many talented people though... during times of a slower economy there has to be ways to discriminate.... I think a college degree is one of them
Ok, here's some of the experience I've had, and the conclusions I've drawn from them:
./'ers are not taking into account that you don't just need a degree to move into management. You might also need it for the leg up on your competition. Take this economic heap of steaming s___ that we're in. If you're laid off, then you are most likely competing with several other people who have the same qualifications and who were also laid off. Given the pick, who would most managers choose? You got it, the guy with the degree. Why? Chances are, he'll catch less hell from his management.
The degree isn't always required to get a good job. And you can live a good life without ever getting one. However, for good and bad, there are people who are unwilling/unable to hire non-degreed people. It's just a fact. Most
I personally have fought this battle my entire career. I've spent time on the degree on the side because I will eventually need it some day. For all of you out there who are still having a problem with the idea of getting a degree just to satisfy some suits, look at it using this analogy: neighborhood hockey. Lemme explain:
You might just be the best damn player in the neighborhood. All the other kids know it, and you're THE first to be picked. The only problem is, on Saturday, you can't play with them because you didn't pay the municipal fee to play in a city league. Therefore, when you go to the rink, the Ref is going to have to keep you from playing. Does it mean you are any less qualified? Absolutly not. It just means to some suits in your city government, you haven't paid the fee, and can't play in the official league for whatever reason they've come up with. Possibly an issue of liability for the city, or maybe something else unseen to you. It doesn't matter what reason they use though. You still can't play, because they say so.
You see, you will always be able to get a job without the degree, but it's going to be harder. You will end up fighting more for those positions.The degree is a key to open several doors that you can't open on merit alone.
Now, in respect to the experience you get with a degree, here are a few comments:
a degree does not an engineer make.
experience does not an engineer make.
It's the combo of the degree (theory) with the experience (practical knowledge) that makes the best engineers. The theory tells us how something
is supposed to work, and the practice tells us where the theory is wrong so that the theory can be refined. You can operate exclusively in either domain, but you will get the best results in the area where they overlap.
As for the BullS*** arts classes that they make you take? Well, believe it or not, they're very useful too. History enables you to see patterns
of behavior in human culture. So does poly-sci and psycology. English ensures that you will be able to communicate your ideas clearer. Foriegn language expands your view of "those" other people in other areas of the world, as well as helps you communicate with them in an ever increasingly global market. Business and economics gives you the ability to identify trends your future employers will be following, and will give you a set of tools to judge how well they are doing in whatever market they're in.
Besides, let's remember who our customer's are: the non-techies. Yep, you'll be dealing with them some day. And you'll do much better if you have a way to talk with them. That's where the Liberal Arts classes come in.
Just some thoughts and conclusions.
PacketKing
Ignorance is lacking knowledge, stupidity is a choice of ignoring knowledge.
Does this mean that BSA should ban heterosexual males from Scouting too? btw, I am an Eagle Scout.
I'll expand on your thought to include people on both sides of the coin: people without and *with* degrees.
I can easily think of a dozen people within my daily sphere of influence that have degrees and have serious shortcomings in obvious areas like the 3 R's. One of the folks I'm thinking of has a PhD. This is really sad.
I can similarly come up with a list of a dozen people lacking degrees that present themselves in a much more professional manner than the previous group.
You wonder why this debate exists? Partly because today's universities let junk like the first group hit the streets. Partly because people have proven over and over again that you *can* succeed without a degree.
A degree *is* a piece of paper. While I'm not going to say a college education is a waste of time, I will point out that the piece of paper often carries more clout than it deserves, IMHO.
College is *not* the only way to gain a well-balanced background or achieve success. Equally, a college degree does *not* guarantee the existence of such balance or the potential of success.
When all is said and done, it really boils down to the person, not the degree. Bill Gates, Paul Allen, Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Stephen Jobs, Steve Woz, the Wright brothers, Harry Truman, Larry Ellison, Craig McCaw and others all fully understand (and demonstrate) this concept.
--CP
One of the biggest reasons for companies requiring you to have a college degree is that they want to know how much bullsh*t you can tolerate. They know that going thru college, you must get past many b.s. filters --- that's what college really is, it's not an "educational process" it's a "filtering process"... in the end you actually teach yourself the knowledge you went to school to get, the school didn't give it to you, you learned "how to learn" all on your own. If you've got the "right stuff" to make it thru college and put up with all the useless bullcrap they put you thru to get your degree, then you'll have the right kind of personality to be able to deal with all the bullcrap the world of business will throw at you. That's why they always require a degree... it's proof of a right of passage, not proof of knowledge.
I've been in the IT industry for 16 years now, the last 6 in management. I almost finished a degree in 1985, but the fact is I do not have one. My story is similar to yours -- get started, work your way up, do not accept unnecessary limitations. It's always encouraging to see that others occasionally follow this path.
I have hired people ranging from non-degree up to MSCS. Looking at the performance of the entire group, the degree people fit the "normal curve". Some good, some bad, most were at least adequate. The non-degree people were hired only when they could demonstrate superior skills. As it happens, those skills made them top performers when it was time to actually do the job. Of all the non-degree people I have hired, I have yet to be disappointed.
In my opinion, the degree is part of the selection criteria ONLY when ALL of the applicants are light on experience.
Some of the other posts are correct in that certain industries are militant about the degree requirement. Around here the common examples are government, insurance, defense, banking, and pharmaceuticals.
Case study #1: I once hired a guy whose only work experience was as a VCR repair technician. He was an engineering/computer hobbyist, whom I had known for years. He was an incredibly sharp guy, just a little unfocused. He was part of my staff for a few years, and then left to become a system manager for one of the largest banks in New England.
Case study #2: Same story, except this guy was an electrician who was doing mostly Cat.5 network wiring. He was on my staff for a few years, and is now the network manager for an state government agency with a very sophisticated WAN and LAN environment that includes numerous remote sites and thousands of PCs.
Case study #3: I knew another guy who earned an ASEE. He looked for a job and found nothing. He goes back for an AS in Data Processing. New job search, same result. He goes to another college and earns a BSCS. Still no job. Finally, he goes to college #3 and gets an MSCS, and EVENTUALLY, a job installing PCs and LANs in Georgia. We would still be driving a van full of PCs from Georgia to Alabama if I didn't hire him. Since then, he worked his way up through operations and became an Oracle DBA. He now works for a major pharmaceutical company, so things worked well for him too. Then again, if he never graduated from anywhere, I don't see how his life would be any different today, aside from possibly earning an additional 6 years of salary.
Let's face it, when the IT job market is cold, MOST applicants are going to get excuses instead of job offers. In such a tough market, you have to outwit, outplay, and outlast your competition, degree or not. In a hot IT market, the offers are out there, and exceptions are being made by employers, beyond what most people can possibly imagine.
Does the lack of a degree reduce my theoretical number of potential employers? YES, it does. However, I don't expect to get an offer from every interview. No one ever does. In my career, I have interviewed about 12 times and received 5 offers, for a hit rate of about 42%. Did I get "screened out" of several opportunities? Sure, but who cares? I only accepted 2 of the 5 offers, and I've been promoted 6 times by two employers during 16 years of uninterrupted employement. I don't let the degree become an obstacle, and every so often I find employers who agree with me. After all, I can only DO one job at a time, right? If I apply for ten jobs and I'm ranked #1 once and dead last for the other nine, that's a hell of a lot better than being ranked #2 all ten times, as described in case study #3 above.
In my opinion, things that don't make you a #1 choice are not all that useful. To me, the degree is what helps you reduce the number of reasons why an employer might NOT hire you, but it's not as valuble as adding a reason why they WOULD hire you. Think of yourself as a hiring manager. Can you imagine telling your boss something like "I hired Joe Smith because he has a degree." On the other hand, would you rather say "I hired Joe Smith because he has great experience." To me, one of those statements sounds much better than the other.
Actually, the 68000 did and does support supervisor mode. This includes a supervisor stack pointer (SSP) and some instructions that will cause an exception when executed from user state to keep a user state process from forcing itself into supervisor state.
Also the processor outputs its current state (supervisor, user, exception processing, etc.) on a set of pins so that the memory hardware could throw an exception when a user state process tried to access memory in an address range that should be considered "protected"; for instance, the first 8k or so of ram that contained exception vectors, OS variables, etc.
The memory hardware in another 68000 machine, the Atari ST, used these pins to protect the first 4k (I think; it may have been the first 8k), and also memory mapped hardware registers at the high end of memory.
Just because the Mac design did not take advantage of the supervisor features of the 68000, does not mean it didn't have them.
You are right however that the 68000 did not properly support the concept of virtual memory. It's bus error exception (which would be used by to OS to note when a memory access was taking place outside of a current logical block) did not save enough state information for the processor to be able to restart the instruction. Thus adding an MMU to the 68000 was useless.
This thread seems to have an interesting trend. Ok so this guy says he has been working for a while without a degree and is now seeking one... Why does this seem to bother some of you in similar situations who DON'T want a degree???
Somehow this took a turn towards a flood of people saying "I don't have a degree", "You don't need a degree". What the hell is this. I DO honestly think that skills are the most important thing. Thats an obvious thing. But there is no way any of you can logically say that earning a college education is NOT beneficial.
You can tell your story over and over about how you've worked for ten years and don't have a degree. blah blah blah. I don't care if you make three times my salary. Your story does not negate the millions of people who graduate from college every year.
I don't doubt that you can still have a wonderful career in the tech world without earning a degree. I'd bet plenty of money on the fact however that for EVERY ONE of you guys with a story of how you've been a manager WITHOUT a degree for 'X' amount of years, there are a thousand doing the same WITH one.
I honestly think its great that many of you made it without having a degree. I love my job and I got here because of good skills and a college degree, but I don't think I am better than you because of it. In turn, you're not better becuase of the tract you took.
I've only seen one person in this thread who didn't graduate from college come close to remotely admitting that a degree does mean something. Many of you seem so defensive about not getting your degree. Hey it worked for you and thats great but your experience alone can't discount the facts for others.
One day when you all have kids, I hope someone shows them all your comments about how "USELESS" getting a degree is.
You say that you're salary was increasing by 50% a year since you started (?!)
... lemmee see ... (1+ 0.50) ^ 5 =~ 7.5 times your starting salary, which was either really low or you're making a boatload now.
That would give you
If you started at 14k you are now making 100k. Why bother with a degree?
Anyway, good luck to you man, and don't procrastinate. Start working to a degree now, finding time only gets harder. I'd look to a community college for an associates degree first work on it part time. From there maybe transfer somewhere and then stop working, and finish off the hard stuff in a year or 18 months.
www.avacal.com -- the home page of pete shaw