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MS Struggles to Discredit Linux

PrimeNumber writes "The Register has this interesting story about a supposedly "leaked" email from Microsoft Windows division VP Brian Valentine. Although half of it is admittedly suit/rah rah speak, the interesting nuggets mention use of Microsofts "Sun and Linux insiders"." The whole email is pretty funny actually.

66 of 723 comments (clear)

  1. Discredit? by EnglishTim · · Score: 3, Informative

    Discredit seems a bit harsh. He just seems to be encouraging his peons to try and make sure that they beat Linux to the punch when they're dealing with their corporate customers, especially when those customers are looking at getting rid of their specialist UNIX systems in favour of PC-based stuff.

    He does imply that Windows beats Linux in all corners, but a guy's allowed an opinion, especially when he's trying to rally the troops... ;)

  2. Maybe it's just me by Wind_Walker · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Maybe it's just me, but I always react with skepticism whenever an "anonymous source" leaks a "classified document" to the public. For all we know, this e-mail was written up by Mark Jabroni from Nowhere, TX.

    What especially rings my "hoax/troll bell" is the last couple of lines about the message being "Microsoft Confidential" and how he can track any and all forwards. Give me a break.

    This article is complete bull. Nobody will ever be able to convince me otherwise. It was written by a well-intentioned Linux advocate and sent to The Register because it would give the people of Slashdot a reason to cheer.

    Nothing to see here, folks. These are not the e-mails you're looking for. Move along.

    1. Re:Maybe it's just me by Proaxiom · · Score: 5, Interesting
      how he can track any and all forwards. Give me a break.

      Actually you can. All the company e-mail is on Exchange Servers, and so anybody within the company forwarding it would be using those servers, and the admins can see it.

      He mentioned the problem with auto-forwarding, because if it gets forwarded once then they can no longer track it. Once it's off the company network it is out of view.

      Of course anyone can just as easily copy and paste the text into a web browser and send it from a Hotmail account, but security based on futile half-measures just makes me think this must be authentic Microsoft.

      Anyway, it is addressed to Microsoft Sales and Marketing people, who probably know none of the above. They would most likely take whatever the guy says at face value.

    2. Re:Maybe it's just me by Otter · · Score: 3, Insightful
      What especially rings my "hoax/troll bell" is the last couple of lines about the message being "Microsoft Confidential" and how he can track any and all forwards. Give me a break.

      If this is real, the line at the end is a reference to a previous mail about Linux that was supposedly leaked to the Register and was linked here.

      Nothing to see here, folks.

      I agree with that, but for a different reason. As Valentine says here (supposedly), "Now that the whole world knows we are taking Linux seriously based on the leak of my last email... Wait -- stop there -- since when did they think we weren't taking them serious?!? Did they think we are not going to build the best products possible? Did they think we were going to just be fat, dumb and happy and not continue to win business? Did they think we were going to forget about taking care of our customers??? NO! "

      I don't get why we're supposed to fly into a rage because Microsoft decides that paying attention to customers and giving them what they want for a better price is a good idea. As Linus said a few years ago, "when that happens, we've won."

    3. Re:Maybe it's just me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

      I assure you, this email is very real. I work for the company. I am part of the WW Sales group that received his "Me Again - Linux Updates" and the angry email he sent this morning, pissed off about the leak to the Register. It's very real, and it was not leaked intentionally. Neither was the prior email.

  3. another leaked email by MathJMendl · · Score: 5, Funny

    From: Brian Valentine
    Sent: Wed 1/2/2002 1:14 PM
    To: WW Sales, Marketing & Services Group
    Subject: Me again -- Linux updates (part 2)

    Our elite PI squad has managed to break into the linux infrastructure! Now, all their source code base are belong to us! With their source code, we can now see how they do things. This infiltration of linux will let us defeat linux, once and for all, from the inside! All we must do now is figure out what the heck all that code means... We would know already, but Visual Basic wasn't able to open their source code files for some reason.

    --


    "I have not failed. I've simply found 10,000 ways that won't work." --Thomas Edison
    1. Re:another leaked email by Alsee · · Score: 5, Funny

      Now, all their source code base are belong to us!
      ...but Visual Basic wasn't able to open their source code files for some reason.


      What happen?
      Someone set up us the bsod.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
  4. Re:big bro does exist at ms.... by angelo · · Score: 4, Funny

    Perhaps they should ban the cut and paste buffers if they want to prevent this sort of thing.

  5. Exchange? by bdowne01 · · Score: 3, Funny

    PS: I used to run Exchange -- so if you think I am not tracking this message, think again.


    So what's he running now, Sendmail?? heheh

    What a tard. You can't track if someone cuts and pastes it into a new e-mail. Then again, I guess we *are* talking about MS employees.
    --
    -brain
    1. Re:Exchange? by morcheeba · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You can track emails, even if someone prints it out and mails it, rewrites it by hand (with a pencil), or even speaks it over the phone. It's called Steganography, and it hides information by subtly changing the punctiation and spelling, or by changing the text (omission or inclusion of various words/sentences). For all we know, the sent line "Sent: Wed 1/2/2002 1:14 PM" indicates that employee #114 leaked the info.

      Incidently, it's just barely 2 pm here the US east coast... sure, this is a worldwide email, but in Redmond it's still 11 am, not 1:14 pm.

  6. This is very funny... by christurkel · · Score: 3, Funny

    Puts on bad German accent (like on the one from Hogan's Heroes): "Dear troops. There iz a threat to us out thar called Leeenox. It is insidious; it may be in your very server room right now! Go out! eradicate the Leeenox Scum! Use our informants to bring zee traitors to heel! "If you forward or leek thiz email, you will be summarily sent to the Eastern Front!"

    --

    CDE open sourced! https://sourceforge.net/projects/cdesktopenv/
  7. Made to be leaked? by danielrose · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This email looks a lot to me like he wrote it and it was released intentionally as some type of stupid PR thing...

    --
    i hate pansy republicans
  8. a dose of MIcrosoft's own medicine by markj02 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Linux is out there in some of your accounts and you may not know it. The ground up nature of how Linux is introduced into our accounts [...]

    It's ironic that Microsoft is getting a dose of its own medicine. The IT department (which existed pre-PC) tried to get everybody to use their centrally managed platform, but people just kept buying those darn PCs running Microsoft software.

    Well, that aside, I wouldn't necessarily trust the authenticity of the E-mail. Can Microsoft management be stupid enough to send out mail with big warnings "don't forward this"? Haven't they learned from painful pas experience that if you don't want it to get forwarded, you don't send it by E-mail? At the same time, the content of the E-mail seem in character for Microsoft.

    Most plausible about it is the obsessive need by Microsoft to control the whole market and let no competition appear. And that's exactly why Microsoft needs to be reduced in size: there is nothing wrong with having Microsoft be a big player in the market, but there is a lot wrong with any OS or software vendor being the only significant player in its market segment.

  9. Re:big bro does exist at ms.... by linzeal · · Score: 3, Informative

    WindowsXP AntiSpy software works pretty well. Anyone running windows xp might want to check out all the various ways ms "phones home".

  10. Why should they not fight? by Ars-Fartsica · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Lets face it, the sustaining force behind this entire community website is Microsoft bashing and unabashed (often unreasoned) linux advocacy. Why shouldn't MS fire back?

    Maybe its a message to the linux community that its time to grow up. Look back at Amiga, Be, and OS2 newsgroups and you'll see the fine tipping point where advocacy gets stifling, annoying, and often leaves only the completely clueless fanboys participating in the discussion at all.

    Personally I'd like to see /. evolve a bit in 2002...beating the linux drum is a useful practice, but a raison d'etre, it does not make.

    1. Re:Why should they not fight? by nathanh · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Personally I'd like to see /. evolve a bit in 2002...beating the linux drum is a useful practice, but a raison d'etre, it does not make.

      Now this interests me, because I think the "bash /." meme is now far more popular than the "bash Microsoft" meme. I just quickly counted the responses to this article and I've estimated a 3:2 ratio of "bash /." to "bash Microsoft".

      I suspect the same holds for other once-popular memes. Whenever there's a BSD article I hear the same rhetoric that "/. is anti BSD" but I have the strongest suspicion that I have seen far more articles about BSD than Linux on /. in recent weeks!

      Even articles that are unrelated to BSD receive a huge share of "BSD does it better" or "BSD did this first" in the talkback sections. I've personally been attacked for daring suggest that the early days of *BSD had their own fair share of bun fighting and political nonsense.

      I strongly believe that /. is full of zealots of all walks of life. I see just as many pro-Microsoft and pro-BSD zealots as I see pro-Linux zealots. It seems the pro-Linux zealots are just being more quiet these days, or at least have been flamed often enough to be less outlandish in their claims.

      Sadly I haven't yet seen the same tempered behaviour from the non-Linux zealots.

  11. Tracking forwards by wiredog · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Not hard to do, assuming clueless users. Just write it in HTML and embed a web bug. Every time the message is opened in Outlook (or Kmail) it sends a message home.

    1. Re:Tracking forwards by Glytch · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah, you're right, if you assume clueless users.

      We're talking about sales people here.

  12. Discredit? by TheGreenLantern · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Honestly, isn't "discredit" a slightly harsh, or at least not-quite-right, word for this email? This isn't some mass-media FUD campaign; I mean, it's a motivational email to (presumably) a bunch of sales wonks, encouraging them to try and sell their products. Gasp, call the Justice Department.

    It's not as if Linux vendors aren't out there right now doing the same thing, telling customers they're bug-nuts for running NT/2000/XP. I realize it's pretty funny and/or scary to hear him talk about "eliminating" Linux from customer sites, of doing "walkthroughs" to find hidden Linux machines, like some kind of Secret OS Police. But from a business standpoint, you want to sell to your customers, as much as possible. This is just a reminder to the sales guys, "Hey, don't let any sales opportunities slip through your fingers".

    Don't get me wrong, MS has been Very Bad on many different things, but I fail to see how trying to sell their product should be considered some kind of Evil Act (tm).

    --

    It hurts when I pee.
  13. Task force of MBA's by xZAQx · · Score: 4, Funny

    This sounds like a big scary task force of Windoze suits equipped with page after page of FUD, moving into every client they have and investigating (read: Spying) their enterprises usage. Snoop out the linux and squash it dead.

    MS Suit: and this box over here, what's it running?

    Joe, IT Manager: It's a debian box I built that works as a router, jabber server, and sendmail server for our engineering staff

    MS Suit: (Scratches some notes in little black book of infidels) Ah, I see...

    Replacing his sunglasses

    We will be in touch

    Snaps his little black book closed and walks out

    --

    We dance to all the wrong songs.
    --Refused.
  14. Looks real to me. Here's why. by Bowie+J.+Poag · · Score: 5, Interesting



    Theres one important clue here that points to this email as being legitimate. The lack of British euphamisms. The Register is a UK-based resource. If they wanted to doctor up a fake email in a conversational tone, it would have been written differently from the style in which it appears. Infact, when I was reading it, I kept expecting to see language differences, and didn't find any. Hell, to any self-respecting haxx0r, that bad-bad-doggy conclusion at the bottom of the email just begs to be disobeyed.

    Even more true is the snippet about DH Brown being total FUD-whores. It says so right on their damn webpage, you can pay for the results you want.. Give em $1M and they'll tell that the majority of people surveyed think the sky is green, Windows is better, and we all ride around on invisible pink unicorns.

    --
    Bowie J. Poag

    1. Re:Looks real to me. Here's why. by 1010011010 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I don't know anything about D.H. Brown, other than that an MS Sales Dude implied he could buy a desired result from them.

      So I went to their website. The front page had several Linux and Unix articles on it. I clicked on one:

      From the D.H. Brown website, Sept. 2001:

      For the first time, the strongest Linux distributions surpass the weakest UNIX systems in overall functionality. Using the version 2.4 Linux kernel has improved the features of the operating system. In addition, all of the vendors studied - SuSE, Red Hat, Caldera, Turbolinux, and Debian GNU - have increased the breadth and depth of their bundled network infrastructure software. The report provides detailed analysis against critical criteria: scalability, RAS (reliability, availability, serviceability), system management, Internet and web-application services, and directory and security services. With these upgrades in place, the leading distributions of Linux are able to serve as general-purpose operating systems for a wide range of departmental and workgroup applications


      ... doesn't seem terribly anti-Linux to me.
      --
      Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
    2. Re:Looks real to me. Here's why. by dhogaza · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you read carefully it looks like the study's intended to compare the acres-of-beige-NT box scenario versus the consolidated server scenario (the IBM/Linux ad case now being seen on TV).

      That's not anti-Linux per se. Remember that the previous e-mail supposedly leaked by this guy included some rough numbers comparing an IBM solution with a PC/NT solution. IBM may not charge for Linux but they charge a lot for hardware and service...

  15. Now they know who the leaker is.... by tomreagan · · Score: 5, Interesting

    unless they are really stupid.

    It's a simple trick - they sent out slightly different copies of the email to everyone on the list. Then, when the public version gets published they can reference the published version against who got what.

    The changes can be cosmetic - slight changes in phrasing, additional punctuation, spacing, line breaks. Stuff like this would be pretty much unnoticeable without having a couple of different copies to compare against. Even then, it would likely be tough to notice the difference.

    Add in 3 separate requests to "not distribute" as a tempting goad to the leaker, and the odds are that MS has solved their problem with that person.

    Unless The Register sliced up the email themselves....

  16. Slashdot Struggles to Discredit Microsoft by siphoncolder · · Score: 3, Insightful

    doubtless, this is the title that's going through rational people's minds.

    not that MS can't be discredited in various other ways, but this story reeks of grasping for straws. /., i expect better of you - stop trying so hard.

    besides - the register? *shakes head*

    come off it and get with it.

    --
    i'm amazed that i survived - an airbag saved my life.
  17. Re:Double standard by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Gee, it's not like the Linux crowd has been trying to do this to Microsoft for the past 10 years or anything.

    The ironic part being that this illegally obtained or (more likely) libelous story is a perfect example.

  18. You're right by Wind_Walker · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I admitted in this thread that it would be pretty easy to "leak" the e-mail (if nothing else, good old pen-and-paper works great!) but it's just that I'm always skeptical of anything from "anonymous sources". And yeah, you could track things going through the central Exchange server, with a pretty simple mechanism. But still...

    I think you're right; it was used as a scare tactic towards the clueless non-tech people who don't necessarily have the technical background to filter out the hype from the truth.

    Back to my original point, I still think it's a hoax. Maybe it's just my cynicism shining through, but I can't believe that Microsoft is really focusing that much attention on Linux. The hype surrounding Linux in the media has died down, Linux companies are going Chapter 11 left and right... Unless the Xbox is more of a flop than I anticipated, I can't believe Microsoft is that concerned with Linux. I could be wrong, though...

    1. Re:You're right by iceT · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think your comment may be a bit short sited.

      Sure. People jumped on the LINUX bandwagon way before they market was ready to accept it, and that means that companies will fold.... especially if they're dedicated to the task.

      The possible exception to this is RedHat. But you also have to look at the stuff that RH has done. They've been partnering up the wah-zoo. Dell server preloads are ONLY RedHat. Most of RH's announcements recently have been in the 'big' arena: big databases, big support. Big.

      Lastly, Redhat is working to make a zSeries port for IBM.

      And those three letters are probably what Microsoft fears more than Linux itself: a LARGE scale vendor dishing up LINUX. If large companies use LINUX with their consolidated servers, then it's going to be an easy/easier push down to smaller/dedicated servers.

      IBM has the cash that LINUX needs to get accepted... PLUS, there are datacenters full of mainframes with support people that love them. If LINUX let's them keep them longer, They'll embrace it.

      Is this letter real? Maybe, maybe not. Based on meetings I've had w/ MS/Redmond people (part of a corporate trip with a fortune 10 company)... it sure sounds exactly like the attitude I've seen from all the employees I've met (including Balmer himself). There's big ego's, big attitudes, and big expectations. Relentless doesn't even BEGIN to describe these guys...

      It very well could be real..

      --
      -- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
    2. Re:You're right by PD · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Linux is making serious inroads into corporations. I have personally worked on Linux solutions for companies that you have definitely heard of, and which run a lot of machines. One of those companies has retail stores in every city of the US, and many overseas. Each store has multiple registers and back office systems. All of them are going to be running Linux within the next couple years.

      The other company is in the financial industry. You'd think that they have all the money in the world, but they too are implementing Linux solutions in an effort to save money. They took this step SPECIFICALLY based on Amazon's experience with Linux: it saved them a dump truck full of money.

      So that's why Microsoft is concerned. The hype is definitely gone. Reality has set in, and Linux is kicking ass.

    3. Re:You're right by dhogaza · · Score: 5, Insightful

      IBM is peppering every NFL game with their "The Heist" Linux ad. This ad is selling EXACTLY the server consolidation message the e-mail you so swiftly proclaim to be a hoax addresses.

      The e-mail message mentions names IBM specifically. The last time I looked IBM did not fall into the category of "Linux companies going Chapter 11 left and right".

      And the "escalation center" rings like it could be true, too. They're not fighting Debian - they're fighting IBM. IBM is clearly targetting MS in its current marketing campaign, so MS taking specific steps to counter them makes fine sense.

      Now ... it may be a hoax. But not for any of the reasons you mention.

    4. Re:You're right by HeUnique · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And why do u think it's fake?

      Read the email - it says DH Brown will release a study that MS is cheaper compared to Linux. This report is commissioned by MS and it's not out yet - so if this email is a fake - how could he know about DH brown study? DH brown so far knew to shut-up until releasing those damn expensive studies...

      So he tells about this report and another one in May - well, if it's a fake - then how the original author of this email knew about the May study?

      --
      Hetz (Heunique)
    5. Re:You're right by rseuhs · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Back to my original point, I still think it's a hoax. Maybe it's just my cynicism shining through, but I can't believe that Microsoft is really focusing that much attention on Linux. The hype surrounding Linux in the media has died down, Linux companies are going Chapter 11 left and right... Unless the Xbox is more of a flop than I anticipated, I can't believe Microsoft is that concerned with Linux. I could be wrong, though...

      Microsoft is scared because they look at the big picture:

      Why did the DOS-PC win against Apple although Apple owned the desktop? Certainly not because DOS was easier than MacOS.

      Because it was 20% to 30% cheaper.

      10 years ago, DOS made up 1 to 2% of the total system price, now Windows alone makes up 10 to 20%.

      With hardware-prices becoming cheaper and Windows staying the same or even rising, Linux-systems become a lot cheaper compared to Windows-systems.

    6. Re:You're right by Chris+Burke · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you look at the corporate battle field and all you see lying in the rubble left by the economic decline is Linux companies... You must be wearing some special penguin-shaped blinders.

      It is true that Linux companies are going Chapter 11. But so are companies doing anything else. The point isn't that this is happening now, the point is that when the economy recovers, those companies that survived are going to be stronger. And that includes Linux companies.

      Not to mention that recessions are the time when managers take a look at their balance sheet and ask themselves how to save money, and the line on their balance sheet labeled "Windows Licenses" is going to start looking like a tempting target.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    7. Re:You're right by dagnabit · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Um, no they aren't. There are absolutely no plans to switch any Sun Cobalt product lines to Sparc/Solaris (and I work in the Cobalt Server Appliance group, so I know of whence I speak =8^} ) There is support from the highest levels within Sun (from Scott and Ed on down) to continue moving forward with Linux-on-x86 as the basis for the Cobalt appliances.



      They bought us because they liked the appliance concept. Cobalt is not, and won't be, a general purpose Linux/Unix solution. We play at the edge of the network, providing a front-end to the Sun big iron in the datacenter.

  19. ALWAYS consider intentional disinformation. by AgTiger · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Always consider that leak is intentional, and that you have been specifically targeted as part of a disinformation campaign. Ask yourself what purposes might exist in getting you to buy into the message. Be skeptical, it pays off. My own impression is that this message was too convenient and is attempting to convince me to underestimate Microsoft, or to misdirect me away from where their real efforts are. Just look at the opening lines - it's practically _begging_ to be "leaked". Of course, that's just my opinion...

    1. Re:ALWAYS consider intentional disinformation. by JWhitlock · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Always consider that leak is intentional, and that you have been specifically targeted as part of a disinformation campaign. Ask yourself what purposes might exist in getting you to buy into the message. Be skeptical, it pays off. My own impression is that this message was too convenient and is attempting to convince me to underestimate Microsoft, or to misdirect me away from where their real efforts are. Just look at the opening lines - it's practically _begging_ to be "leaked". Of course, that's just my opinion...

      Nah, this is a real leak. Look at all that marketing speak.

      Check out the part about the consulting company doing a study, comparing the cost of Microsoft solutions to Linux solutions in Unix upgrade costs. There's two possible conclusions to that study. One, Linux could come out on top, and then Microsoft would never release the study. Two, Microsoft would come out on top, and now a Linux company (Red Hat) can proactively do their own study, so that they have something to give to their own marketing people. Even without a "leaked memo", the sales folks could have said "yes, DH Brown is releasing a study in a few months, showing hard numbers that Microsoft is better, I'll get that to you when it comes out, etc. etc.". No real advantage in leaking the memo.

      At the same time, I doubt he's really concerned about a leak - there's no real facts in there, just strategy. I imagine the sales team is out there, selling Microsoft products, and complaining to each other that the customer brings up Linux, and they have no ammo to use. This is the boss saying "we've heard the coffee room conversations, we do have a Linux strategy. Here it is. Sell, you beautiful marketers, Sell!".

      Now we just need real cost-of-ownship numbers, since you know the DH Brown report will use top consultant by-the-hour numbers...

  20. Re:Double standard by coyote-san · · Score: 5, Informative

    It's not a double standard when you're discussing different things.

    The Mac/Linux/*BSD crowd, overall, just tries to point out that the emperor has no clothes. In response, the naked emperor demands that everyone close their eyes. (Consider MS's recent position regarding the disclosure of vulnerabilities. I know, MS is targeted because it's more popular... so explain how IIS has more exploits than Apache even though the latter is far more widely used?)

    MS, in contrast, has a repeated track record of funding and trumpeting skewed tests. The Netcraft "study," for example, had the best minds in MS on hand to tune the server. The Linux system, in contrast, warranted a single vague post to the incorrect newsgroup - they didn't even bother contacting Red Hat to inform them of the tests.

    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
  21. Yawn by NiftyNews · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I was somewhat shocked to see all the replies that seem to think this memo was ever real.

    It's clearly a fake, and a clever one at that. You want reasons? Alright.

    It is setup with a "man I hope this doesn't get leaked again" and ends with a mindless left-field "I used to run Exchange so don't leak this or...else!" intended to fool the reader into believing it was truely internal.

    The purpose of the memo by the AUTHOR is to grab the reader with a flashy idea (MS memo leaked!) and then promote Linux from within. Read the center sections, they're an ad for Linux. Very clever, really. This gets the Linux community more press than if they just released an ad themselves.

    The supposed "MS author" tells his employees how to ask about Linux, further giving examples of how and where Linux would be useful.

    Just a prank intended to serve as promotion. Kudos to the author, but don't be fooled into thinking this is actual MS material.

  22. comparable XP-server is still far more expensive by coyote-san · · Score: 5, Informative

    First off, if you think that the copy of XP that came bundled with your new system is "free" you are an idiot. The OEM paid MS a significant amount of money (the exact amount is never disclosed, but believed to be in the $100-$200 range) and it's passed on to the consumer. Same as the cost of the hard disks, memory, CD or DVD drive, etc.

    But on the main point, your $500 retail copy of XP-server gives you the right to set up a server. But not to use it - that requires a client license. For every service. You want a database? Again, you need a license - and MSSQL is expensive. Plus client licenses. Ditto upgrades to the back office (exchange), IIS, etc.

    I haven't seen price comparisons for XP vs. Linux, but I seem to recall that a Win2K server set up for a reasonably sized workgroup would cost $100k and up by the time you had all necessary licenses. In contrast, that $3000 HP charges for their distribution (which includes their own proprietary tools) is pretty cheap.

    P.S., maybe you can find a NT MCSE who doesn't drool, but other studies have shown that you better have one MCSE for every 5 users or so. Your 100-person workgroup will need 20 MCSEs to keep it working. In contrast, the average load on Unix sysadmins in 20- to 100- users per admin (depending on the shop) - you'll need 2-5 unix admins to support the same workgroup. (You need at least 2 to cover vacations, illness, etc.)

    Assuming each person costs $150k/year (salary, benefits, overhead), the unix shop costs $300k-750k to support. The Windows shop will cost $3 million to support.

    --
    For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
  23. Re:Double standard by Rydian · · Score: 3, Informative

    Umm... Mindcraft not Netcraft.

    --
    chown -R us. /base
  24. Re:Three things about this I found funny. by Dr.Dubious+DDQ · · Score: 4, Informative
    "Used to use Exchange" -- Horrors, does this mean than he uses a REAL email server, like Qmail/postfix/sendmail, now?

    Quick point, that's "Used to run exchange" - i.e. used to be in charge of the Exchange department at MS....

  25. Anonymous Trust & Specifics by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 3, Insightful


    Maybe it's just me, but I always react with skepticism whenever an "anonymous source" leaks a "classified document" to the public. For all we know, this e-mail was written up by Mark Jabroni from Nowhere, TX.


    Well... that's the nature of the beast, isn't it?


    I've been on the inside of stories hitting various web news outlets before. It lead to some discussion amoung my co-workers, but nobody commented in public... even when such forums were available. What I knew could have shed some interesting light on the story... but it could also have cost my job. You never know how management and/or the legal department (not to mention PR) will react.


    Because of this, its pretty obvious that verifying a source will be difficult. At best, the reporter breaking the story might have some idea of their source. But in this day of less-than-thorough reporting you can hardly expect this. And even if the reporter could be trusted to do some background checking, their job is likely to be difficult. We've seen plenty of legal action recently that should cause any legitimate insider / whistle-blower to hide their true identity.


    Having said all that - I do agree with the overall post. Skepticism is good. We should look at any anonymous source carefully. I remember an April Fools joke from several years ago that took much of this community for a ride simply because the community believed anything put in front of them. But at the same time, we can't immediately dismiss anonymous information simply because of its anonymous nature.



    What especially rings my "hoax/troll bell" is the last couple of lines about the message being "Microsoft Confidential" and how he can track any and all forwards. Give me a break.


    Eh. I don't find this as particularly odd. First, I've seen the "CompanyName Confidential" moniker included in emails from other companies. And the bit about tracking forwards actually rings true. All this "confidential" and "tracking" speak sounds just like the Secret Squirrel games I've seen non-infosec people play. And it works.


    The horrid truth is that even within the most technically advanced organizations... there are still a cadre of very technically limited users. And they tend to be found most often within Sales & Marketing roles (I know, I know... that's a broad brush I'm using. Not every individual in sales fits this. But my experince shows the generality tends to hold true).


    It does not suprise me such wordings would be found in a legitimate internal memo. It would not suprise me if it was fairly effective. And it certainly wouldn't suprise me if there was an individual with the minimal technical understanding to circumvent these precautions / threats.

  26. Who cares? Show that you don't ... by Jobe_br · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Anyone looking to see if all those Linux folk are still zealots w/r/t Linux v. Microsoft would only need to measure the response to a story like this. Do you hear that sucking sound? That's the sound of many fine folks wasting their time and energy on bashing Microsoft, their products, their practices, their religions ...

    It doesn't need to be like this, folks. Speak with your wallets, speak with your advice to people who seek out your opinions, speak with your civil rights as a citizen of a free country (whichever country that might be!) Don't buy Microsoft products if they aren't any good or if you have ideological reasons not to (this is always your dime, as people say). If you're asked for your opinion on technology, recommend Open Source products if applicable or products produced by competitors of Microsoft if they are better, or if you have ideological reasons not to recommend Microsoft products. Write your senators, representatives, school board members, and city council members about your opinions. Propose alternatives to Microsoft packaged solutions. Maybe your solution costs less, maybe its more reliable, maybe it just makes the point of not supporting a company found guilty of anticompetitive practices, whatever.

    Summing up: who cares what Microsoft thinks of Linux, don't waste your time on fruitless flames, trolls, op-ed, etc. that merely 'sings to the choir'. Do something that counts or don't do anything at all. Perpetuating the opinion of others, that all folks involved with Open Source are anti-Microsoft zealots doesn't gain us favor in areas that might provide some of us Open Source advocates money in the future. Its all about impressions when dealing with conservative (or even just fiscally minded) executives. A sure thing is always going to be better than the latest underground trend.

    1. Re:Who cares? Show that you don't ... by barneyfoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I dont know if you've noticed, big guy, but slashdot appears to have more microsoft defenders than linux zealots now.

      And besides, microsoft doesn't need your help. They have over $30 billion in the bank. So lets cut this poor microsoft crap, cause they're doing just fine with or without our help or "bashing".

  27. Re:It's not the corporate desktop by Cally · · Score: 3, Flamebait

    *Yawn*. The Netcraft survey is pretty meaningless, as it excludes SSL servers - ie every real ecommerce site extant. Take a look at the SSL numbers and surprise!! Microsoft have twice as much market share as Apache.

    --
    "None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
  28. Why it's NOT a Hoax: Warning vs. catching the leak by dcavanaugh · · Score: 3, Interesting
    The memo mentions M$'s ability to track forwarding, which depends on the internal leaker using the M$ corporate Exchange server to do the leaking. No matter what Mr. Valentine's technical skill level might be, he would surely know that his message could be forwarded via a number of alternative means, some of them being really low-tech...
    1. Print a hardcopy, then use ancient fax machine
    2. Zip or PDF file with a password
    3. Copy/paste into Hotmail
    4. Post to Usenet via Google Groups
    5. Graphic screenshots
    6. PGP encrypted
    7. [Fill in your favorite work-around here]

    If he's a knowledgable guy, he knows that tracking the e-mail via Exchange has some serious limitations. Knowing this, why not try to control the problem by making an idle threat? IMHO, he's not necessarily stupid, he just doesn't have any great choices to make here.
  29. The real source of this email..... by oobeleck · · Score: 5, Funny

    Deep inside Slashdot headquarters......

    CmdrTaco: Come on guys this is BS. We needs some
    news today. Isn't ANYTHING interesting going on?
    Do I have to do EVERYTHING myself???

    [CMDRtaco@debianbox] telnet expoitable.sendmailbox.ru

    220 exploitable.sendmailbox.ru ESMTP Sendmail 8.6

    HELO aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa(250 times)
    250 exploitable.sendmailbox.ru Hello debianbox.slashdot.org pleased to meet you
    mail from: bvalentine@microsoft.com
    250 2.1.0 bvalentine@microsoft.com... Sender ok
    rcpt to: news@theregister.co.uk
    250 2.1.5 news@theregister.co.uk... Recipient ok
    data
    354 Enter mail, end with "." on a line by itself
    To: WW Sales, Marketing & Services Group
    Subject: Me again -- Linux updates

    etc...............

    Oldest Troll trick in the book.

  30. Re:Why it's NOT a Hoax: Warning vs. catching the l by Foochar · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Unless he has the message "Canary Traped" This is a fairly well known method of determining where documents are being leaked. Your format the message slightly differently in each case, not enough to change the meaning or even enough that a casual reader will catch it, but enough that each document is unique. You might use a : instead of a ; or leave out a comma or period here or there. By comparing the leaked document to your originals you can figure out who the document was sent to, and therefore who leaked the document.

    --
    "You can't fight in here! This is the war room" --Dr. Stra
  31. Easy way to check authenticity by SanLouBlues · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There is a mailto:lnxteam in there. Send a mail to lnxteam@microsoft.com, see if it bounces. It doesn't necesarily mean the email is real, but it will debunk it if it's not.

  32. Re:comparable XP-server is still far more expensiv by jht · · Score: 5, Informative

    Windows isn't cheap to support, but it's a lot cheaper than those figures. I have 150 users here, and we support them with 5 people (myself and 4 staffers). However, of those 5, 1 does primarily applications support (we have a lot of legacy apps) and runs the 2 NetWare servers, and 1 does mostly database work and development. I run the group and work mainly on security. We really have 2 people specializing in NT administration, and we're just fine that way.

    I'd also estimate the per-person dollar figures to be a lot lower than $150k/person/year. I'd say a figure of $100-$110k for a highly-paid NT person (total, not salary) is still high, but closer to reality. The skilled Unix person is more expensive, but you _will_ often need fewer of them. Total cost for most shops is probably somewhat comparable.

    I used to support about 100 Macs pretty easily with 2 people, so that support cost goes even lower...

    Also, I don't know exactly what the OEM cost for Windows is, but I believe that it's typically well under $100 in volume (around $50-$60 or so, typically). XP Pro (NT 4 and 2000 Pro, as well) add a little more to the ticket, but most OEMs typically raise the price $100 from what they'd charge for the "home" OS versions for the pro stuff. At least part of that $100 is profit for the vendor.

    Retail packages of the server OS usually include 5-25 licenses. But that's still pricey, of course. I can say that our Enterprise license pricing (we're part of a group with a bigger company, so we qualify) is very attractive - it includes the server CAL, desktop Windows (any version), and Office Pro. It almost makes Windows worth using ;-)

    --
    -- Josh Turiel
    "2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
  33. Re:Double standard by realdpk · · Score: 4, Funny

    Which are?
    Well, for one, web-based "remote systems administration"* out of the box.

    *in as much as Back Orifice is an admin tool.

  34. Re:Independent Analysis by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It all depends on what you ask for. "Give us a report on how Linux costs more, in real terms, than Microsoft" and that's what you get, and it will all be true. Oh, it'll be estimations, and specific scenarios, and all that sort of stuff, but it'll be true, and it'll be internally consistant. Say "Give us a report on how Microsoft costs more than Linux, in real terms" and you'll get, again, a true, accurate report that tells you just that, with all the same caveats. Folks, for some of these projects, ten thousands for OS licenses is NOT a factor. Having a custom-written support contract, with phone numbers you can call at four o'clock in the morning that WILL be answered by YOUR technical account manager, who's ONLY PURPOSE IN LIFE is to keep you happy with his parent company, however, IS a factor. In other words, Microsoft really isn't targetting the microsoft shop who winds up running a BIND server because they can. Sure, they'd like to stamp that out too, but they don't care. They're going, as the mail says, against Sun and IBM in the server market.

    --
    Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  35. The most telling line in the whole email... by malevolence · · Score: 5, Funny

    that makes me think it actually is real is the following:

    "We have the best d*mn sales force in the world backed by the best engineers in the world."

    Only a marketroid would think that the salesmen are more important than the engineers.

  36. Re:You gotta be kidding me... by rseuhs · · Score: 4, Funny
    I hope people out there are not actually going to believe this. Please read the letter first and then think about it.

    When I first saw the Ballmer video, I thought to myself:

    "Wow, that has been professionally faked." - I did not believe it was true for a long time.

    I don't see anything in this email that beats Big Boss Ballmer in childishness, sorry.

    And usually the big boss is acting more professional than the smaller execs, so maybe this email just sounds too professional to be true.

    Maybe the real emails go like this:

    Give it up for me!
    IIIII LLLLLLOOOOVVVVEEE TTTHHHHIIIISSSS COMPANY
    Yeah!

  37. Re:Double standard by jedidiah · · Score: 3, Informative

    Lets be perfectly clear. MINDCRAFT set up a test designed to make Linux fail. This by itself is a clear demonstration of bias. Never was there a genuine justification for the structure of their particular test or it's relevance to servers as they exist in reality.

    That test generated results completely dissasociated from reality.

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  38. I can write a better fake than that by Animats · · Score: 5, Interesting
    "While Linux is going nowhere on the desktop, it remains a threat in the server space. The use of Linux, especially with Apache Web Server, slows down the deployment of our next generation of web services, such as .NET, Passport, and Hailstorm. This in turn interferes with transitioning our customers to a subscription model and providing us with an ongoing revenue stream during periods of low growth. It's therefore important that efforts be made to displace non-Microsoft web servers.

    We're embarking on several initiatives in 2002 to deal with this.

    • The "99.999%" reliability program will be offered competitively to IT shops which use only Microsoft software.
    • Presentations to Fortune 1000 clients will emphasize the migration path planned for Windows XP and its successors, which will move consumers away from a generic Web environment to one that requires .NET-enabled web sites.
    • We will be introducing a new mail protocol in 2002 which will replace the present "SMTP" protocol. This protocol will provide authentication of mail senders (but not encryption of content) and will protect mail servers from unauthorized use. The client for this mail protocol will be distributed as an update to Internet Explorer. Initially, users will see no change as a result of this action. But when ISPs transition to our replacement for Post Office Protocol, our mail clients will treat old-format unauthenticated mail as potentially hostile. In high-security environments, old-format mail will be down-converted from HTML to plain text, and attachements will be stripped. Our intellectual property will prevent the cloning of this mail protocol, giving us control of the worldwide e-mail system within three years.
    • We are working with PC manufacturers to develop firmware which enforces a secure boot process. This will prevent the loading of non-signed operating systems. While any company will potentially be able to obtain permission to sign an bootable file, we are working with the National Infrastructure Protection Center to insure that such authority is only available to U.S. companies able to qualify for Government security clearances.
    With these new initiatives, you should have no trouble convincing top IT management that conversion to an all-Microsoft environment is inevitable."
  39. Re:To summarise: by Danse · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Come on, Microsoft is commissioning an "independent full-blown cost-analysis comparison", the final results of which are not going to be available until May, yet they already happen to know the results will be a huge boon for their sales team? Talk about a load... The Register got it exactly right saying that MS had commissioned the study by the "'we'll-conclude-anything' whores DH Brown."

    --
    It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
  40. Linux Hype by Esoteric+Moniker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The media hype surrounding Linux may have died with the various high-profile linux company's stock prices but that doesn't mean Linux has stopped making inroads.

    An example of this would be Java. When Sun released it everyone was shouting Java this and Java that and how it would change the world yada yada yada. Sound familiar? Well Java news has been pretty slim in the non-geek world (or at least from what I've seen.) However, Java has been making big inroads into the back-end systems that don't get much media converage. One might assume Java had gone the way of many a dead language without realizing it's at work behind the scenes and growing.

    --

    man RTFM
    No manual entry for RTFM.
  41. SSL server != e-commerce server by Jacco+de+Leeuw · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Lots of SSL servers don't run an e-commerce site but are used for an extranet, or for access to internal webmail...

    --
    -------
    Warning: Slashdot may contain traces of nuts.
  42. Results before survey, though by HiThere · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It seems that knowing the results before the "independant consultant" performs the survey is ... strange.

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  43. Re:comparable XP-server is still far more expensiv by pellaeon · · Score: 3, Informative

    (this is my first ever post)

    I have to agree with you on that. I'm an admin at Leiden University and my part of the network, though small with about 100 computers and ~180 users, would cost about $10000 if we would install W2k and Office on just 25 computers (even though we also have an enterprise agreement going for us).

    This would be all of our requirements as 75% of our desktops run Linux (who said Linux wasn't ready for the desktop? It's been ready for about 2 years now! And these are non-technical users too!).

    We spend about 60% of our time on the 25% Windows computers/users however. So I think I can safely say that both in initial costs and in maintenance Windows is quite a bit more expensive than Linux.

    --
    -- /bin/coffee missing. universe halted.
  44. Re:Gee, it has always just worked for me... by Enahs · · Score: 3, Insightful
    What I love is getting in arguments with anti-Open bigots. First they'll tell me that Free *n?x on the desktop will never work because of reasons that, without getting into them, not even WinXP can do (such as supporting every piece of known PC hardware, without outside drivers and zero configuration, with 0% problems.)



    When I mention problems I've had with various Windows systems, I'm simply dismissed (in most cases) with something along the lines of "sounds like you don't know what you're doing." Hello? I thought that, for Mom & Pop to have an OS that's Ready For The Desktop(TM) that Mom & Pop should be able to be drooling idiots and still check their email. Now we have to have fairly sophisticated knowledge of Windows to be a desktop OS user? Yet Linux On The Desktop(TM) has to 1.) support every known piece of hardware without requiring any computer skills or even any user interaciton 2.) have replacement apps for MS Office apps that support 100% of Office docs, 3.) an interface that's 100% identical to Windows, 4.) allow the rooling-idiot Mom & Pop to go buy Windows (and hell, Mom & Pop sometimes accidentally grab Mac apps; IMHO, if they do that, they really don't need a computer) apps at Babbage's and have a.) the CD automounted b.) have WINE run autostart.exe (or whatever it is; I've not use Windows for a while) and c.) have 0% problems running the Windows app? Oh, and if it's not too much trouble, have the same level of support for MacOS apps, in case Mom & Pop can't be bothered to read the label (or section headers in the store)? 5. Make it so easy to install, a trained chimp could do it.



    Folks, if those are the criteria for an OS being ready for the desktop, not even MacOS or WinXP pass. Sorry.

    --
    Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
  45. Everything by leonbrooks · · Score: 3, Funny
    A more real-life scenario:

    MS Suit: and this box over here, what's it running?

    Joe, IT Manager: It's a debian box I built out of spares, and it basically runs everything. File services, web, FTP, mail, database, legacy apps, a few instant messengers, name service, firewall, proxy, virus filter, the lot. I haven't had it off-line in the last year. The other boxes are there to make the server room look good and keep the managers and accountants happy. I think some of them run game servers.

    MS Suit: Could you repeat that, please? I can't write that fast. What's in an `F' teepee? And you reckon it's poxy? Why's that?

    Joe (rolling eyes): We are out of touch.

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  46. Re:Gee, it has always just worked for me... by mpe · · Score: 3, Informative

    Program installation is still a pain in the ass for a novice user.

    In a great many circumstances users being able to install programs is a big problem with Windows. It costs a lot in support and sorting out the resulting mess. Also employers can end up being liable for their employees installing unlicenced software. There is actually quite a market of third party products to stop end users being able to install software on Windows machines...

    Linux distros have a hard time focusing on a desktop only Linux. In reality, my mom could care less if she could spawn a web server on her home box.

    This isn't "The desktop", it's a rather specific subset called "The standalone end user administered desktop". In reality even many "home" machines are no end user administered anyway.

    Linux's configuration is too difficult for most people. There is no standardization between config files. No end user should have to learn a whole new language each time they want to change a simple option.

    Fixing cars is too difficult for many people. Different cars can require different tools to service. But that dosn't mean that everyone must drive the same car... Because most people understand the difference between using and servicing/maintaining/building/fixing a car. Problem is that they don't when it comes to computers.

    The filesystem structure is terrible for the end user. Putting an app in "C:\Program Files" or "Hard Disk:Applications" is a hell of a lot simpler than /usr/local/whatever, that is if the package installs it there instead of /root/whatever or god knows where else.

    Have the average driver identify the parts of their car engine. It dosn't matter if they can or they can't, since what they need to know is what driving controls do.

  47. It's about TCO and account control... by s390 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    and Microsoft's targets are all non-M$ servers. But they'll have a hard time convincing all but the most naive IT executives with a commissioned "independent" study. I don't know about Sun or HP, but IBM has actual case studies for various industries to back up their sales presentations. And IBM will do an onsite competitive analysis using your actual and projected costs, comparing their offerings against your current environment and the costs of competing vendors. Microsoft better pack a lunch.

    However, M$ will still be able to buy some business somehow. I can hear the CTO office conversations now....

    "So Mr/Ms M$ sales-droid, why do you think Microsoft offers lower Total Cost of Ownership - that's what TCO means right?

    "Well, our higher licensing costs include support that Linux doesn't offer. There is no one firm responsible for Linux - but Microsoft is there for you with support."

    "I can buy Linux support for less than your licenses cost.... Why would I want to pay you more for bad service? Licensing terms that say you're not responsible for anything bad that happens to us by using your software, no way no how, never? Support that costs EXTRA, over and above licensing? Tier 1 tech support that needs help getting dressed in the morning? Added charges for Tier 2/3 support? And NOT TO MENTION most of our problems are caused by your own sloppy code, insecure defaults, arcane proprietary system internals, file format incompatibilities! Where is my credit for all these costs?"

    "Er, Microsoft makes the best software; everyone uses this."

    "Yes, everyone in our offices surfs the 'net, downloads porn and music files, and wastes time chatting online - all well enabled by your promiscuous everything-enabled Windows! And I have a dozen MSCE-papered dweebs running around fixing peoples' self-disabled capabilities to do that instead of work! I can replace that dozen MSCEs with just 2 or 3 Linux people tomorrow. What does that do for your TCO calculations, huh? Do you have any real answer to Linux? I'm very interested."

    "Well, we do have some er, confidential partnership offers."

    "Is this where you offer me a rather... personal incentive?"

    "Um, why yes, now that you mention it. Do you have a non-US bank account by any chance?"

    "(Sliding paper over the desk). Well, harumph, having dealt with all my considerations, on balance it's Microsoft here."

  48. Serious XP and Linux. by ImaLamer · · Score: 3, Informative

    [I will be working on this more in depth later]

    Notice the best thing about XP is already in Linux?

    Users? Firewall? Services [I can change the OS!]? Themes?