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MS Struggles to Discredit Linux
PrimeNumber writes "The Register has this interesting story about a supposedly "leaked" email from Microsoft Windows division VP Brian Valentine. Although half of it is admittedly suit/rah rah speak, the interesting nuggets mention use of Microsofts "Sun and Linux insiders"."
The whole email is pretty funny actually.
the PS of his email says it all --
if you think I am not tracking this message, think again
makes me wonder about WinXP's calling home.....
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
The tone of the message seems to suggest that he knew it possibly would be leaked. The wording seems to carefully step around anything suggesting Linux is evil, but suggests that he considers Linux the alternate operating system competitor that it is, sort of like Coke vs. Pepsi...
Discredit seems a bit harsh. He just seems to be encouraging his peons to try and make sure that they beat Linux to the punch when they're dealing with their corporate customers, especially when those customers are looking at getting rid of their specialist UNIX systems in favour of PC-based stuff.
;)
He does imply that Windows beats Linux in all corners, but a guy's allowed an opinion, especially when he's trying to rally the troops...
I hope people out there are not actually going to believe this. Please read the letter first and then think about it.
the site already seemed pretty darn slow so:
What's cheaper than an OS you can buy outright once and install on every PC in your shop -- and upgrade cost-free for eternity to boot? Why, a slew of cheesy licenses for Microsoft Windows, 'Doze Division VP Brian Valentine claims in his latest cheerleading effort for his sales associates.
That's right; a putatively independent analysis by 'we'll-conclude-anything' whores DH Brown is going to rip Linux a new one and find that Windows is actually cheaper. How Valentine knows this is anyone's guess. Perhaps he has a mole in the Brown organization as good as the one we have in his. Or perhaps MS simply paid for it. We don't know.
It also appears that MS has bought off a number of Linux/Sun 'insiders' whose job it will be to explain to the sales team how to pitch the illusory advantages of Windows to unsuspecting IT managers. "Dumber people can run Windows" is the best advert I personally can come up with, though this is without the benefit of expensive analysts and turncoat 'insiders' to feed me intriguing tidbits.
But let's let Valentine tell it in his own words:
From: Brian Valentine
Sent: Wed 12/26/2001 7:14 PM
To: WW Sales, Marketing & Services Group
Subject: Me again -- Linux updates
Microsoft Confidential -- Do not print, copy or forward this email and do not share this email with anyone out side the company. For internal use only!
Now that the whole world knows we are taking Linux seriously based on the leak of my last email... Wait -- stop there -- since when did they think we weren't taking them serious?!? Did they think we are not going to build the best products possible? Did they think we were going to just be fat, dumb and happy and not continue to win business? Did they think we were going to forget about taking care of our customers??? NO!
Who do they think we are? We have the best d*mn sales force in the world backed by the best engineers in the world -- of course we will take any non-Windows OS serious. The thing about the leak that made me mad was not that we would legitimize Linux, etc. it's good in some places, we are better, and it's not very good in other places and we are much better. but they are a competitor and we will compete. What made me mad was that my friends -- some of you and some of our customer's names where in that email and then available for all to see on the web. That made me mad. I want you selling and supporting our products -- not having to take random calls, emails, etc from the press and others and I know what out customers share with us is in confidence that we will keep it internal. I have no problem any random Linux person sending me hate mail, junk mail, adding my email address to every list server out there, you name it -- that comes with the job, but I don't want my friends to have to deal with the same junk.
Ok, Ok, enough of that. On to some new things we are doing for you around Linux.
Linux is out there in some of your accounts and you may not know it. The ground up nature of how Linux is introduced into our accounts means that we need to modify our traditional approaches of finding out about Linux in our customer base. We have to be more hands on and dig deeper in your accounts!
Many Linux projects in CAS and Depth accounts happen below the IT Manager/BDM level. It's crucial that you get out there with your TSP/SE/MCS folks and do actual walkthroughs in your accounts. Ask open ended questions; find out what they're evaluating for both key projects as well as smaller, more tactical projects. Ask about the 'connector' pieces -- you'll potentially find Linux in these areas. This is a great way to not only find out about Linux, but also other IT projects that may include Novell, Sun, Oracle, and other competitors! If you are struggling with how to do this, then do the simple exercise of walking through you accounts data centers and when you see a Sun or IBM machine, ask what it's used for, if you see some strange servers you don't what they are doing -- ask what is running on them and take notes. I would like to challenge each of you to have these conversations with your customer as soon as you can. Oh -- and you can bet anyplace IBM is talking to your accounts, they are saying Linux and switching to higher end non-pc systems. With the current economic times we are living in, just about every customer is looking into how they can get rid of those over-priced, legacy Unix systems and ride the PC economics wave. We need to be there when they are making these decisions and prove to them the Windows platform is the best platform for them across any aspect of their business.
I want you to know just how seriously we're taking Linux here in Redmond. We're investing major efforts in creating easier processes and resources for you.
I. To start, we have expanded the in-field Linux Competitive Champ program and renamed it "Linux Insiders". Like the other TSP Champs programs, it has been changed to use the new TSP role-based database and will be ready to roll out with its new name at the Envision event in January. It is up to each regional TSP manager to select or assign each member; therefore, anyone wishing to become an Insider should see their manager to be signed up. Much like the support "communities" that define the Linux experience, the FCS team will strive to build a community to cooperate in winning business against Linux. By building a virtual team of field staff and corporate resources, we will enable the field to have one place to go for communication and competitive information. The Linux Insiders will have access to a centralized web site where personnel can request help, route issues, and share best practices that the entire field can leverage. This site, a restricted sub-set of the http://infoweb/linux site, will be accessible by all "Insiders," for items such as SLT reviews, web-casts, notes from conference calls and other sensitive information. If you have questions about the Insiders program, please email Kelly File of the FCS
team at mailto:kellyfi.
II. Second, I'd like to announce the new Linux/UNIX escalation process that is being headed up by [MS Enterprise & Partner Group VP] Charles Stevens' organization. Here's how it works:
a. First, make sure you check out the latest additions to the Web sites: http://infoweb/linux and http://infoweb/sundown.
b. If you can't find what you need there, involve your local expert: the district Linux or Sun Insider (TSPs with Linux and/or Sun competitive responsibilities). These Insiders have the expertise and the resources to help you win. You can find your local Insider on the web sites.
c. If you still need help for Global, Strategic and Major accounts, the Linux/Sun Insiders (or your GM) can escalate the issue to the new corporate Linux/Unix Escalation Team. Let me emphasize that you need to work with your local Insider or your GM because they have direct access to this escalation team. The team is committed to provide an initial response within one working day. These guys have in-depth UNIX industry backgrounds and have been winning against UNIX and Linux. The product development organization will be working closely with this team to make sure you have all the resources you need.
III. Finally, we're working hard to debunk the myths around Linux. We're approaching this in waves.
a. The first wave will attack the perception that Linux is free. To that effect, we'll have an independent analysis commissioned by DH Brown looking at a very popular topic these days -- server consolidation. If you're not seeing this yet, you probably will. IBM is proposing to use Mainframes running many virtual instances of Linux as a low cost server consolidation scenario for file and print, messaging, and database activities. The DH Brown report will be customer ready and will help your customer understand just how competitive Microsoft is in this arena.
b. The second wave will be a full blown cost analysis comparison case study between Linux and Windows in a variety of usage scenarios (web, file and print, etc.) done independently by the analysts for us. ETA for this tool is in May and it will be a great tool to help you sell the value of Windows solutions over Linux. If you have any questions on this study, please email the mailto:lnxteam alias.
You can expect us to turn up the volume on winning against Linux, as well as IBM. There is some great cross team work between PMG, SMG, and CMG marketing groups to ensure we're addressing your needs and believe me, that feedback goes directly to me and the senior leadership team so we can build better products to help you win against Linux!
Thanks,
Brian
Microsoft Confidential -- Do not print, copy or forward this email and do not share this email with anyone out side the company. For internal use only!
PS: I used to run Exchange -- so if you think I am not tracking this message, think again. Don't forward it! And if you have forward rules that have forwarded this message, then perhaps you should think again about forwarding internal email with those rules. I want to give you folks all the information I can in a very open way. If we continue to have bad apples or careless people out there, I will not be able to help you by sending this kind of information!
Simply copy n' paste your favourite expression into a post!
- "Oooh! How schweet! Does it run Linux?"
- "I wonder how long it will take before Linux is ported to this puppy?"
- "I was going to write the app, but I was too lazy to do it, and waited for someone else to make it instead."
- "The GPL is great - Let's discuss it."
- "My professor said I should be using emacs..."
- "My professor said I should be using vi..."
- "It's sooo easy to port this application, why hasn't anyone done it yet? I would, but I'm too busy working on the kernel and choosing new Transformers wallpaper..."
- "If everyone was as talented a coder as me, we'd have beaten Microsoft by now!"
- "I don't care if Windows Ultra has no bugs or security flaws whatsoever, it's still worse than Linux."
- "Chyeah! Right! If it was a business requirement to use Java, they should have refused to do the project!"
- "Of course I don't use Internet Explorer. I only use it when I'm forced to, like at the office, and at school, and at home..."
- "The government can kiss my ass until they stop monitoring my phone calls... FREEEEEDOM!"
- "I can't believe you paid money for Photoshop! GIMP is way better dude!"
- "I was going to Ask Slashdot, but then I noticed that Dragonball Z was on cartoon network..."
- "I've always wanted a Japanese girlfriend so I can understand my non-dubbed/subbed anime collection..."
- "Uh! That's is such a rip off of Communication OS from Serial Experiments Lain!"
- "Why didn't Alan ask Linus about the VM? I like being on first name basis with my heroes."
- "Everyone on IRC told me Enterprise was crap. I watched it, loved it, and then told everyone I met that it was crap."
- "The government is taking away my rights! This is so like '1984'!"
- "I'm reading the preface to C for Dummies and my head already hurts..."
- "But real programmers use a CLI! Anybody who doesn't use a Common Library Injector should have got a degree like me!"
- "I'm going to code my Gamecube emulator in C, but even though I have only ever used Visual Basic Learning Edition, it should be a one banana problem and ready in the next few days."
- "I hardly think you can call me a fashion victim - I been encoding to ogg since 1994"
- "But I'm taking Computer Science at university; You WILL respect my opinion! I am the law!"
- "I may have only just graduated, and may still be looking for work, but I've got more experience than you with your '20 years of coding'!! Get A BS!"
- "I asked Neff if they would Open Source the code to my microwave, but they told me it was proprietary..."
- "I know Ada, Fortran, Cobol, C, C++, Java, HTML, Perl and RPG.... Oh, I thought you meant know *of* them..."
NickTheGreek, LondonThe traffik's blaadhy murder, but then that's part a' the charm, aint't it?!
What especially rings my "hoax/troll bell" is the last couple of lines about the message being "Microsoft Confidential" and how he can track any and all forwards. Give me a break.
This article is complete bull. Nobody will ever be able to convince me otherwise. It was written by a well-intentioned Linux advocate and sent to The Register because it would give the people of Slashdot a reason to cheer.
Nothing to see here, folks. These are not the e-mails you're looking for. Move along.
or is it? I don't know what to think. At first, I thought "no one would seriously write this" but it turned into "you can't make this stuff up."
From: Brian Valentine
Sent: Wed 1/2/2002 1:14 PM
To: WW Sales, Marketing & Services Group
Subject: Me again -- Linux updates (part 2)
Our elite PI squad has managed to break into the linux infrastructure! Now, all their source code base are belong to us! With their source code, we can now see how they do things. This infiltration of linux will let us defeat linux, once and for all, from the inside! All we must do now is figure out what the heck all that code means... We would know already, but Visual Basic wasn't able to open their source code files for some reason.
"I have not failed. I've simply found 10,000 ways that won't work." --Thomas Edison
"Although half of it is admittedly suit/rah rah speak, the interesting nuggets mention use of Microsofts "Sun and Linux insiders"
hmmm, i wonder how this email was obtained?
Got Freedom?
Thinking?
Does this mean MS is commiting corporate espionage and sabotage against Linux and Solaris? Meaning MS is paying someone to work for Sun and quietly cause problems with Solaris code. Same for Linux - have someone inside Red Hat or even as just any ol' OSS guy causing problems to the Linux kernel. Of course, the Linux kernel is under much more watch than Solaris is.
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
So what's he running now, Sendmail?? heheh
What a tard. You can't track if someone cuts and pastes it into a new e-mail. Then again, I guess we *are* talking about MS employees.
-brain
Okay, who works for the Global Linux Escalation Team? I'm imagining a set of MS techs in Star Wars Stormtrooper gear.
The sad part is the quote at the end.
Puts on bad German accent (like on the one from Hogan's Heroes): "Dear troops. There iz a threat to us out thar called Leeenox. It is insidious; it may be in your very server room right now! Go out! eradicate the Leeenox Scum! Use our informants to bring zee traitors to heel! "If you forward or leek thiz email, you will be summarily sent to the Eastern Front!"
CDE open sourced! https://sourceforge.net/projects/cdesktopenv/
"PS: I used to run Exchange -- so if you think I am not tracking this message, think again. Don't forward it! "
That line would be enough motivation for me to leak that msg.
This email looks a lot to me like he wrote it and it was released intentionally as some type of stupid PR thing...
i hate pansy republicans
It's ironic that Microsoft is getting a dose of its own medicine. The IT department (which existed pre-PC) tried to get everybody to use their centrally managed platform, but people just kept buying those darn PCs running Microsoft software.
Well, that aside, I wouldn't necessarily trust the authenticity of the E-mail. Can Microsoft management be stupid enough to send out mail with big warnings "don't forward this"? Haven't they learned from painful pas experience that if you don't want it to get forwarded, you don't send it by E-mail? At the same time, the content of the E-mail seem in character for Microsoft.
Most plausible about it is the obsessive need by Microsoft to control the whole market and let no competition appear. And that's exactly why Microsoft needs to be reduced in size: there is nothing wrong with having Microsoft be a big player in the market, but there is a lot wrong with any OS or software vendor being the only significant player in its market segment.
One flaw with your comment about respectability.
This story is from The Register.
The real threat to Microsoft / Windows isn't on the corportate desktop, but in the server market:
Netcraft survey
With an estimated 15-20 Linux users, I think there's also a lot of home & student usage, plus the cost benefit of Linux is causing poorer countries such as Brasil to look at Linux for use within the school system.
Linux is, after all, an extremely expensive operating system. After all, just look at Hewlett Packard, their Linux distribution sells for $3000 retail. When was the last time you saw a copy of Windows XP (and this is a retail copy, not considering the fact that it comes free with most new machines) for $3000? And think of the support costs! Whereas you can drag just about any MCSE off the street who doesn't drool too much and use him to effectively administer an NT network, you need highly intelligent, qualified people 24/7 in order to maintain a Linux installation. And guess what? They don't grow on trees, enough of you ought to know that; they are expensive. Just as with commercial UNIX, it isn't the initial cost that will break you, it is the ongoing support contracts from the vendor that are the most expensive over time.
Friends don't let friends use multiple inheritance.
Maybe its a message to the linux community that its time to grow up. Look back at Amiga, Be, and OS2 newsgroups and you'll see the fine tipping point where advocacy gets stifling, annoying, and often leaves only the completely clueless fanboys participating in the discussion at all.
Personally I'd like to see /. evolve a bit in 2002...beating the linux drum is a useful practice, but a raison d'etre, it does not make.
"...we'll have an independent analysis commissioned by DH Brown..."
Hahahaha!
"PS: I used to run Exchange -- so if you think I am not tracking this message, think again."
Yeah, I wonder how long it will take for MS to release a version of the Exchange client that doesn't allow copying&pasting and screenshots...
_______
2B1ASK1
Not hard to do, assuming clueless users. Just write it in HTML and embed a web bug. Every time the message is opened in Outlook (or Kmail) it sends a message home.
Best Slashdot Co
The second wave will be a full blown cost analysis comparison case study between Linux and Windows in a variety of usage scenarios (web, file and print, etc.) done independently by the analysts for us. (Emphasis added)
If it's a hoax, then the pranksters know this is just how Microsoft think - lets pay someone to do an "independent" job - and are doing a great chain-pulling job. If it's real - and I personally think it is - then, er, it's funny for the same reason. Millions will be given to the analysts to produce what Microsoft wants. A good 70% of the result will be refuted within days of publication. The 30% that makes good points will just focus the priorities of the developers concerned.
--- Hot Shot City is particularly good.
It's funny how marketing-speak has its meaning (if any) independent of the subject. For example:
With the current economic times we are living in, just about every customer is looking into how they can get rid of those over-priced, legacy Unix systems and ride the PC economics wave.
Could have the subjects swapped to read:
With the current economic times we are living in, just about every customer is looking into how they can get rid of those over-priced, legacy Windows systems and ride the Linux economics wave.
- and still not really mean much (though many slashdotters may prefer the second version).
http://fsfeurope.org/
Honestly, isn't "discredit" a slightly harsh, or at least not-quite-right, word for this email? This isn't some mass-media FUD campaign; I mean, it's a motivational email to (presumably) a bunch of sales wonks, encouraging them to try and sell their products. Gasp, call the Justice Department.
It's not as if Linux vendors aren't out there right now doing the same thing, telling customers they're bug-nuts for running NT/2000/XP. I realize it's pretty funny and/or scary to hear him talk about "eliminating" Linux from customer sites, of doing "walkthroughs" to find hidden Linux machines, like some kind of Secret OS Police. But from a business standpoint, you want to sell to your customers, as much as possible. This is just a reminder to the sales guys, "Hey, don't let any sales opportunities slip through your fingers".
Don't get me wrong, MS has been Very Bad on many different things, but I fail to see how trying to sell their product should be considered some kind of Evil Act (tm).
It hurts when I pee.
This sounds like a big scary task force of Windoze suits equipped with page after page of FUD, moving into every client they have and investigating (read: Spying) their enterprises usage. Snoop out the linux and squash it dead.
MS Suit: and this box over here, what's it running?
Joe, IT Manager: It's a debian box I built that works as a router, jabber server, and sendmail server for our engineering staff
MS Suit: (Scratches some notes in little black book of infidels) Ah, I see...
Replacing his sunglasses
We will be in touch
Snaps his little black book closed and walks out
We dance to all the wrong songs.
--Refused.
The point isn't that they shouldn't fight, I mean that's what businesses do, we all know that. The point is that yet again Microsoft doesn't fight fair, and they have illegal practices.
~ now you know
I just think it's funny how he's already telling us how the unfinished "independent" surveys will turn out.
WWJD? JWRTFM!!!
Theres one important clue here that points to this email as being legitimate. The lack of British euphamisms. The Register is a UK-based resource. If they wanted to doctor up a fake email in a conversational tone, it would have been written differently from the style in which it appears. Infact, when I was reading it, I kept expecting to see language differences, and didn't find any. Hell, to any self-respecting haxx0r, that bad-bad-doggy conclusion at the bottom of the email just begs to be disobeyed.
Even more true is the snippet about DH Brown being total FUD-whores. It says so right on their damn webpage, you can pay for the results you want.. Give em $1M and they'll tell that the majority of people surveyed think the sky is green, Windows is better, and we all ride around on invisible pink unicorns.
Bowie J. Poag
Sorry, I don't buy this one.
sPh
unless they are really stupid.
It's a simple trick - they sent out slightly different copies of the email to everyone on the list. Then, when the public version gets published they can reference the published version against who got what.
The changes can be cosmetic - slight changes in phrasing, additional punctuation, spacing, line breaks. Stuff like this would be pretty much unnoticeable without having a couple of different copies to compare against. Even then, it would likely be tough to notice the difference.
Add in 3 separate requests to "not distribute" as a tempting goad to the leaker, and the odds are that MS has solved their problem with that person.
Unless The Register sliced up the email themselves....
-Legion
doubtless, this is the title that's going through rational people's minds.
/., i expect better of you - stop trying so hard.
not that MS can't be discredited in various other ways, but this story reeks of grasping for straws.
besides - the register? *shakes head*
come off it and get with it.
i'm amazed that i survived - an airbag saved my life.
What's next, the Groundhog Memo?
The Thanksgiving letter?
Inquiring minds want to know! :-)
But it's to be expected from MS. It sounds like they are performing illegally with their Linux Insiders, but the email was short on details of who those people actually are, so we can't make any accusations. The main point of us all knowing about this is so we keep pressure on the justice department to go after these guys. Business has never been a perfect enterprise, but the legal system has at least attempted to make things right in the past, they need to step it up right now and do something about Microsoft.
On a related note, something I find funny is the propoganda retailers are using to push PCs and XP. I was PC shopping with my Mom over the holidays and had a nice little chuckle when one of the teenage haxor wannabe pimple faced sales reps said to my Mom "well, you should buy a PC with Windows XP, not ME, because within a year everything will be XP and you won't be able to use the computer without it." That's great... I mean it really, really is. I laugh every time I think about it. But anyway, the point is this kind of propoganda is to be expected, and you hate to see it in the business to business world, but it's old news, just think about car mechanics...
~ now you know
Gee, it's not like the Linux crowd has been trying to do this to Microsoft for the past 10 years or anything.
The ironic part being that this illegally obtained or (more likely) libelous story is a perfect example.
And if the mail contains copyrighted songlyrics - well just wait and see what is in store from the following years Exchange..
http://fsfeurope.org/
If it is just an internal database, seems a little strange to start a "Linux insiders" group, unaccessable to anyone in the Linux community. Unless, of course, the idea is show a client what looks like a public web page, filled with the "real facts" on Linux.
I think you're right; it was used as a scare tactic towards the clueless non-tech people who don't necessarily have the technical background to filter out the hype from the truth.
Back to my original point, I still think it's a hoax. Maybe it's just my cynicism shining through, but I can't believe that Microsoft is really focusing that much attention on Linux. The hype surrounding Linux in the media has died down, Linux companies are going Chapter 11 left and right... Unless the Xbox is more of a flop than I anticipated, I can't believe Microsoft is that concerned with Linux. I could be wrong, though...
Always consider that leak is intentional, and that you have been specifically targeted as part of a disinformation campaign. Ask yourself what purposes might exist in getting you to buy into the message. Be skeptical, it pays off. My own impression is that this message was too convenient and is attempting to convince me to underestimate Microsoft, or to misdirect me away from where their real efforts are. Just look at the opening lines - it's practically _begging_ to be "leaked". Of course, that's just my opinion...
Windows/MS bad/evil/not right==Insightful commentary
Linux Bad==FUD
It's not a double standard when you're discussing different things.
The Mac/Linux/*BSD crowd, overall, just tries to point out that the emperor has no clothes. In response, the naked emperor demands that everyone close their eyes. (Consider MS's recent position regarding the disclosure of vulnerabilities. I know, MS is targeted because it's more popular... so explain how IIS has more exploits than Apache even though the latter is far more widely used?)
MS, in contrast, has a repeated track record of funding and trumpeting skewed tests. The Netcraft "study," for example, had the best minds in MS on hand to tune the server. The Linux system, in contrast, warranted a single vague post to the incorrect newsgroup - they didn't even bother contacting Red Hat to inform them of the tests.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
This is an important point. Considering that they view Linux as the big threat in shops changing from legacy Unix systems, it would seem to me that retraining for Windows will be more necessary than retraining for Linux. This goes for both people and (porting) applications. I may be talking out my ass but it has got to be easier for a Unix shop to move to Linux than Windows.
We had better be vigilant and ready to call them on this when their reports say otherwise.
It's clearly a fake, and a clever one at that. You want reasons? Alright.
It is setup with a "man I hope this doesn't get leaked again" and ends with a mindless left-field "I used to run Exchange so don't leak this or...else!" intended to fool the reader into believing it was truely internal.
The purpose of the memo by the AUTHOR is to grab the reader with a flashy idea (MS memo leaked!) and then promote Linux from within. Read the center sections, they're an ad for Linux. Very clever, really. This gets the Linux community more press than if they just released an ad themselves.
The supposed "MS author" tells his employees how to ask about Linux, further giving examples of how and where Linux would be useful.
Just a prank intended to serve as promotion. Kudos to the author, but don't be fooled into thinking this is actual MS material.
------
Today's Top Deals
The message threatens that the guy can track the propogation of this message. If I were an MS worker, I would be pretty pissed if this feature were enabled on my email servers. Of course, plain old cut and paste and encryption can help you in this regard.
When I read the Netcraft study, it said the Linux folks were there and left when they couldn't get the system running fast enough.
Also, didn't Linus later say the results were valid and useful for improving Linux.
It sounds like the Netcraft study is used for FUD by both sides.
BTW, I wonder how Slashdot would react to VA Linux or Redhat memos being made up or leaked.
this is not a sig
Are you kidding? We are 1337 Lunix Kommunity; our many eyes and unbelievably large wangs cannot be deceived. If something like this had been real, there would be absolutely no chance at all that it was meant to end up on the FrontPage of Slashdot.
The opposite of disgruntled is engruntled.
Carry on.
Virg
First off, if you think that the copy of XP that came bundled with your new system is "free" you are an idiot. The OEM paid MS a significant amount of money (the exact amount is never disclosed, but believed to be in the $100-$200 range) and it's passed on to the consumer. Same as the cost of the hard disks, memory, CD or DVD drive, etc.
But on the main point, your $500 retail copy of XP-server gives you the right to set up a server. But not to use it - that requires a client license. For every service. You want a database? Again, you need a license - and MSSQL is expensive. Plus client licenses. Ditto upgrades to the back office (exchange), IIS, etc.
I haven't seen price comparisons for XP vs. Linux, but I seem to recall that a Win2K server set up for a reasonably sized workgroup would cost $100k and up by the time you had all necessary licenses. In contrast, that $3000 HP charges for their distribution (which includes their own proprietary tools) is pretty cheap.
P.S., maybe you can find a NT MCSE who doesn't drool, but other studies have shown that you better have one MCSE for every 5 users or so. Your 100-person workgroup will need 20 MCSEs to keep it working. In contrast, the average load on Unix sysadmins in 20- to 100- users per admin (depending on the shop) - you'll need 2-5 unix admins to support the same workgroup. (You need at least 2 to cover vacations, illness, etc.)
Assuming each person costs $150k/year (salary, benefits, overhead), the unix shop costs $300k-750k to support. The Windows shop will cost $3 million to support.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Actually you can. All the company e-mail is on Exchange Servers, and so anybody within the company forwarding it would be using those servers, and the admins can see it.
/* Yoda Voice */
It's for this very reason that I doubt that Brian Valentine would be stupid enough to warn whoever was going to leak this email to NOT forward it.
So now even if the leaker was going to simply forward it from their @microsoft email account, he/she now knows to either cut and paste it into some web based email instead or even copy it to a floppy and mail it from some off-Microsoft-campus site instead.
<conspiracy-theory>
This could just be a plot like all those vapor-ware announcements from years past to make the UNIX and Linux folk chase after phantoms in the wind while MSFT executes it's real plans after having led their competitors on a wild goose chase.
yodav("Machiavellian indeed, that would be");
</conspiracy-theory>
Umm... Mindcraft not Netcraft.
chown -R us.
Well, given the history of various MS email leaks, I am inclined to believe it. It is completely plausable that MS would be focused on Linux on the server side. Read the email - that is how marketing/sales thinks. That is the message that all salesmen are told - find out what your customers need, protect your turf, and here is how to discredit your competitors.
No, I don't trust in god. He'll have to pay up front, like everybody else.
Where did you get these numbers? My company has just under 700 employees in several locations around NY, NJ, Penn, and Mass. We have 7 help desk people, 3 NT admins, 2 database admins and 2 wan admins for networking and firewall. And we seem to have a lot of spare time in our mostly windows network.
the right way to track forwards is to dummy up the distribution list and actually send everybody an ever-so-slightly-different version of the document. People could discuss and and compare notes and share opinions never knowing that if they forward a copy and it gets published that it'll be identifiable as the one they got.
... new TSP role-based database ...
I don't know about Windows, but TSP is good for cleaning walls.
Mmmm... TSP.
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
have anyone else noticed that everytime their's an important step in the lawsuit, a leaked document shows up?
I'm not entirely clear (I was at one time, but time+booze has made it fuzzy), but there were -two- netcraft studies. The second study was conducted in response to the loud and completely justified criticism of the first test. In the second study, Linux fared much better but still didn't win. I remember Linus' comments, but I think he was talking about the second one, and the poster was talking about the first.
It's not that I'm too lazy to fact check, it's that I'm on lunch at work and need to go get some food. Really...
The enemies of Democracy are
Did you notice the URL's in the middle there? I think it's pretty funny that they have a directory named "sundown"....
I find it rather scary that this guy Valentine sounds just like my old Radio Shack district manager. I would have thought that a multi-billion dollar corporation would run their sales department with a little more elegance and subtlety.
Can access the article yet but by the sound of what is written in comments here, if MS have such insiders then two things.
1) Being that Open Source Software doesn't really have an inside to be at, so someone has really pulled the wool over MS.
2) If I'm wrong about #1, then doesn't that mean MS has become infected with the GPL virus?
Hmmm, maybe that's where the faulty computer industry logic is being generated from re: MS.
Yeah.... :-) Whatever is the case, I think The Register should be very, very careful about publishing "leaked" messages unless they are very, very certain it actually comes from the claimed source (like having the VP's PGP sig on it... :-) ). Othervice, they will soon lack any credibility, as you would have to go and check every story they post yourself.
Besides, if they ever would really need to post a story based on an anonymous source or a real leaked memo, which is something very important for the press to be able to do, nobody will believe them after this. I certainly wouldn't.
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
Quick point, that's "Used to run exchange" - i.e. used to be in charge of the Exchange department at MS....
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
Well... that's the nature of the beast, isn't it?
I've been on the inside of stories hitting various web news outlets before. It lead to some discussion amoung my co-workers, but nobody commented in public... even when such forums were available. What I knew could have shed some interesting light on the story... but it could also have cost my job. You never know how management and/or the legal department (not to mention PR) will react.
Because of this, its pretty obvious that verifying a source will be difficult. At best, the reporter breaking the story might have some idea of their source. But in this day of less-than-thorough reporting you can hardly expect this. And even if the reporter could be trusted to do some background checking, their job is likely to be difficult. We've seen plenty of legal action recently that should cause any legitimate insider / whistle-blower to hide their true identity.
Having said all that - I do agree with the overall post. Skepticism is good. We should look at any anonymous source carefully. I remember an April Fools joke from several years ago that took much of this community for a ride simply because the community believed anything put in front of them. But at the same time, we can't immediately dismiss anonymous information simply because of its anonymous nature.
Eh. I don't find this as particularly odd. First, I've seen the "CompanyName Confidential" moniker included in emails from other companies. And the bit about tracking forwards actually rings true. All this "confidential" and "tracking" speak sounds just like the Secret Squirrel games I've seen non-infosec people play. And it works.
The horrid truth is that even within the most technically advanced organizations... there are still a cadre of very technically limited users. And they tend to be found most often within Sales & Marketing roles (I know, I know... that's a broad brush I'm using. Not every individual in sales fits this. But my experince shows the generality tends to hold true).
It does not suprise me such wordings would be found in a legitimate internal memo. It would not suprise me if it was fairly effective. And it certainly wouldn't suprise me if there was an individual with the minimal technical understanding to circumvent these precautions / threats.
Anyone looking to see if all those Linux folk are still zealots w/r/t Linux v. Microsoft would only need to measure the response to a story like this. Do you hear that sucking sound? That's the sound of many fine folks wasting their time and energy on bashing Microsoft, their products, their practices, their religions ...
It doesn't need to be like this, folks. Speak with your wallets, speak with your advice to people who seek out your opinions, speak with your civil rights as a citizen of a free country (whichever country that might be!) Don't buy Microsoft products if they aren't any good or if you have ideological reasons not to (this is always your dime, as people say). If you're asked for your opinion on technology, recommend Open Source products if applicable or products produced by competitors of Microsoft if they are better, or if you have ideological reasons not to recommend Microsoft products. Write your senators, representatives, school board members, and city council members about your opinions. Propose alternatives to Microsoft packaged solutions. Maybe your solution costs less, maybe its more reliable, maybe it just makes the point of not supporting a company found guilty of anticompetitive practices, whatever.
Summing up: who cares what Microsoft thinks of Linux, don't waste your time on fruitless flames, trolls, op-ed, etc. that merely 'sings to the choir'. Do something that counts or don't do anything at all. Perpetuating the opinion of others, that all folks involved with Open Source are anti-Microsoft zealots doesn't gain us favor in areas that might provide some of us Open Source advocates money in the future. Its all about impressions when dealing with conservative (or even just fiscally minded) executives. A sure thing is always going to be better than the latest underground trend.
It also appears that MS has bought off a number of Linux/Sun 'insiders' whose job it will be to explain to the sales team how to pitch the illusory advantages of Windows to unsuspecting IT managers
Exposing confidential corporation information is a crime the last time I checked.
~ now you know
If he's a knowledgable guy, he knows that tracking the e-mail via Exchange has some serious limitations. Knowing this, why not try to control the problem by making an idle threat? IMHO, he's not necessarily stupid, he just doesn't have any great choices to make here.
Deep inside Slashdot headquarters......
CmdrTaco: Come on guys this is BS. We needs some
news today. Isn't ANYTHING interesting going on?
Do I have to do EVERYTHING myself???
[CMDRtaco@debianbox] telnet expoitable.sendmailbox.ru
220 exploitable.sendmailbox.ru ESMTP Sendmail 8.6
HELO aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa(250 times)
250 exploitable.sendmailbox.ru Hello debianbox.slashdot.org pleased to meet you
mail from: bvalentine@microsoft.com
250 2.1.0 bvalentine@microsoft.com... Sender ok
rcpt to: news@theregister.co.uk
250 2.1.5 news@theregister.co.uk... Recipient ok
data
354 Enter mail, end with "." on a line by itself
To: WW Sales, Marketing & Services Group
Subject: Me again -- Linux updates
etc...............
Oldest Troll trick in the book.
I think you are referring to the Mindcraft studies, not the Netcraft web server survey...
-- Give me ambiguity or give me something else!
If you had ever been around the Marketing/Sales Department of any company of any size, you would know they sales droids get inundated with crap like this every day no matter what their line of business.
The only odd thing about this one was the not so subtle "please distribute this to the world" message.
It's no wonder the Sales guys have to drink them selves to sleep every night. I don't know how they do it anyway. I would be so bad as a salesperson I would fail at handing out free meat samples to wolves.
Unless he has the message "Canary Traped" This is a fairly well known method of determining where documents are being leaked. Your format the message slightly differently in each case, not enough to change the meaning or even enough that a casual reader will catch it, but enough that each document is unique. You might use a : instead of a ; or leave out a comma or period here or there. By comparing the leaked document to your originals you can figure out who the document was sent to, and therefore who leaked the document.
"You can't fight in here! This is the war room" --Dr. Stra
Gees...Netcraft has good studies that prove Apache is on top. Mindcraft is just MS in sheep's clothing.
Zodiac Survey
Even if this email is rubbish, I can understand why it doesn't sound too much crazy to think that it could be written from inside MS.
As for myself, my budget resolution for 2002 is:
"Don't spend a penny on Microsoft products."
I skipped getting XP and XBox in 2001, zapped Win2000 from my laptop a few months back and installed Linux and got a Gamecube for Xmas
It took me a while at work to finally convince my boss that I could do my job on Linux running Forte for Java and Mozilla/Evolution for corporate communication, as well as StarOffice to read and write documents. And things are really smooth from day one. I haven't experienced any slow down and getting support when things don't work the way I want them is way easier and friendlier than buying and reading the MS manuals and books.
If I can do it, I am convinced that other people are going to do it too. And MS will have to write more funny emails like this one for my pleasure to read and laugh about.
PPA, the girl next door.
-- I feel better now. Thanks for asking.
What would be the best way for MS to keep 'linux zealots' concentrated on the desktop space while they try to move the industry in a different direction?
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
I know Microsoft is (and has been) trying to discredit Linux, but this just has the feel of a sham.
The opening paragraph (after the warning) makes me think that the writer is saying "...and don't copy this (wink, wink) because we don't want anyone to know what we are planning (nudge, nudge)."
I'm just not convinced that it came from a Microsoft exec.
Even if it is totally legit, who the hell cares? I mean, this is a Microsoft sales team. They want to keep their customers from converting any of their systems away from Microsoft systems, or choosing non-Windows systems when they convert their legacy systems. This guy gives very straightforward advise and tools for doing this. Yes, it all sounds a bit brash and slimy - welcome to the world of marketing. It isn't news anymore that Microsoft takes Linux seriously as a threat to its businesses. So could be be spared this leaked dreck? Like I don't have to read enough boring memos at work as it is.
It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries
You had to read Tom Clancy for that? I thought of
that while I was looking at the letter on The Register.
I kind of thought about emailing Brian Valentine
about it, but then I thought, why help him?
If I were doing it, I'd change word choice and/or order,
subtly, throughout the letter.
Ben "You have your mind on computers, it seems."
I thought of that. In fact, that's what I would do if confronted with this situation. Then again, I would not be warning anyone, I would just do it. The only real drawback to this approach is the tedious manual effort that would be needed to make the subtle changes, and then mail out each message individually. To make it look like everyone is getting the message simultaneously, our M$ friend would have to disable his distribution list (so the "To: marketingdroids@microsoft.com" line fails), and then manually BCC each of the recipients so that each gets their unique copy of the message. That's alot of work when you consider how many marketing droids M$ probably has. It's not like M$ has a meaningful scripting language that would help expedite this task!
I know, MS is targeted because it's more popular... so explain how IIS has more exploits than Apache even though the latter is far more widely used?)
Because Microsoft IIS comes packed with more extravagant features than Apache?
Why, what did you think the answer is?
"And like that
There is a mailto:lnxteam in there. Send a mail to lnxteam@microsoft.com, see if it bounces. It doesn't necesarily mean the email is real, but it will debunk it if it's not.
Windows isn't cheap to support, but it's a lot cheaper than those figures. I have 150 users here, and we support them with 5 people (myself and 4 staffers). However, of those 5, 1 does primarily applications support (we have a lot of legacy apps) and runs the 2 NetWare servers, and 1 does mostly database work and development. I run the group and work mainly on security. We really have 2 people specializing in NT administration, and we're just fine that way.
;-)
I'd also estimate the per-person dollar figures to be a lot lower than $150k/person/year. I'd say a figure of $100-$110k for a highly-paid NT person (total, not salary) is still high, but closer to reality. The skilled Unix person is more expensive, but you _will_ often need fewer of them. Total cost for most shops is probably somewhat comparable.
I used to support about 100 Macs pretty easily with 2 people, so that support cost goes even lower...
Also, I don't know exactly what the OEM cost for Windows is, but I believe that it's typically well under $100 in volume (around $50-$60 or so, typically). XP Pro (NT 4 and 2000 Pro, as well) add a little more to the ticket, but most OEMs typically raise the price $100 from what they'd charge for the "home" OS versions for the pro stuff. At least part of that $100 is profit for the vendor.
Retail packages of the server OS usually include 5-25 licenses. But that's still pricey, of course. I can say that our Enterprise license pricing (we're part of a group with a bigger company, so we qualify) is very attractive - it includes the server CAL, desktop Windows (any version), and Office Pro. It almost makes Windows worth using
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
From the leak:
The second wave will be a full blown cost analysis comparison case study between Linux and Windows in a variety of usage scenarios (web, file and print, etc.) done independently by the analysts for us.
Yes, I'm sure it will be completely un-biased.
"And like that
And if your company needed some good linux admins how much would that cost per admin?
Which are?
My Linux distro came with a lot of Apache modules like PHP, mod_perl, mod_ssl and a lot of other modules - and more importantly, it also comes with several SQL servers (which are a prerequesite if you are doing serious webserving). Last time I checked, MS SQL server was not included in Windows.
Although Microsoft marketing and their servants tell otherwise, it's Linux distributions which come with more extravagant features.
I just installed an "unauthorized" linux box on a K6-233 with a couple of beefy big disks. It serves with Samba, and nobody has even noticed. In fact availability is higher than the NT4 box it replaced due to non-existant frequent reboots on the linux operating system.
The only way anyone would know its Samba is if they look at the server properties, Samba says it is NT 4.5, and the box itself has no monitor or keyboard (try that with Windows LOL) so nobody can log in and run those opengl 3d screensavers and play solitaire any more.
Oh, HE may know that, but his dumb-ass sales force probably doesn't. Sales people in the software industry are dumb as shit. This Exchange tracking feature is a well-known scare-tactic by bad managers everywhere. (bad managers are managers that don't understand how to manage people through tactics other than negativism and intimidation - they do not understand that the best way to manage is team-building).
I'm sure he knows that a determined leaker is going to leak this mail via copy-paste or some other method. I'm also sure he knows that probably 80% of his people are too stupid to try something like that. He's trying to discourage the casual leakers.
This is the "soul" of the whole "copy-protection" philosophy, isn't it? The same philosophy born in Bill Gates' infamous "letter to software hobbyists" back in ancient times.
-
He has a point about how Microsoft *should* be concerned about Linux as a competitor. I know my company is DEEPLY concerned about our competitor's products, and we are doing everything we can to tit-for-tat make our product better than theirs, without getting into the dreaded "checkbox war". What we are NOT doing is instructing our sales force on strategies for dishonestly slandering our competition. If Microsoft falls onto hard times in the future, this guy will have an excellent chance at building a new career as a used-car salesman. He has all the necessary skills.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Which are?
Well, for one, web-based "remote systems administration"* out of the box.
*in as much as Back Orifice is an admin tool.
It all depends on what you ask for. "Give us a report on how Linux costs more, in real terms, than Microsoft" and that's what you get, and it will all be true. Oh, it'll be estimations, and specific scenarios, and all that sort of stuff, but it'll be true, and it'll be internally consistant. Say "Give us a report on how Microsoft costs more than Linux, in real terms" and you'll get, again, a true, accurate report that tells you just that, with all the same caveats. Folks, for some of these projects, ten thousands for OS licenses is NOT a factor. Having a custom-written support contract, with phone numbers you can call at four o'clock in the morning that WILL be answered by YOUR technical account manager, who's ONLY PURPOSE IN LIFE is to keep you happy with his parent company, however, IS a factor. In other words, Microsoft really isn't targetting the microsoft shop who winds up running a BIND server because they can. Sure, they'd like to stamp that out too, but they don't care. They're going, as the mail says, against Sun and IBM in the server market.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Zing!
That's what I was thinking. To me, the first couple of paragraphs smell really bad.
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
Gruntle is a real word meaning what you would expect. The usage rate is vanishingly small though.
Excuse me, but "pulling facts out of your ass" is not an acceptable form of rhetoric. Please come back when you can present a real argument.
Sorry, this is slashdot. The only unacceptable form of rhetoric is to actually provide a source for your facts that isn't a link to goats.cx.
Do we need a FAQ for this?
The enemies of Democracy are
These have existed for years. Go to sun.com and find 'trusted solaris.' Or read about the Orange Book DoD security classifications. Such Operating Systems do, in fact, prevent you from doing things like copying from a high security document into a low security one.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
One MCSE for 5 users?!? $150k/year?!? Coyote-(in)san(e) and his mods should go out and shoot themselves! But first share with the rest of us whatever you're smoking! Have you ever considered a career managing human resources for fortune 500 companies? We'd all love you for that, and be set for life too!
Nice...$150K/year and no work to do...maybe I could convince them that I can do my "job" from home...
You're using her as bait, Master!
Do corporate execs actually write emails like that?
Some of the internal use stuff seemed overdone to me. The pep talk seemed more realistic to me - sales force motivation is often a very gung ho over the top kind of thing. Remember that we are talking about a company headed by Steve Balmer here. I am sure you have seen some of the vids of his public performances.
Destroy Linux anywhere and everywhere you find it!". I don't know. There's just something disturbing about a huge corporation attempting to utterly crush free, open source software.
Microsoft is not known for being a shrinking violet when it comes to competitiveness.
When are people going to wake up and realise that the register is just like all of the UKs publications.. a tabloid. Why write about the truth when rumour and flat out lies are so much more interesting and lucrative.
-gerbik
that makes me think it actually is real is the following:
"We have the best d*mn sales force in the world backed by the best engineers in the world."
Only a marketroid would think that the salesmen are more important than the engineers.
Lets be perfectly clear. MINDCRAFT set up a test designed to make Linux fail. This by itself is a clear demonstration of bias. Never was there a genuine justification for the structure of their particular test or it's relevance to servers as they exist in reality.
That test generated results completely dissasociated from reality.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
What's so special about that?
Such linux facilities have been available, even "out of the box" for quite some time now.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
I only speak for me, but I for one am bored with non-stop MS bashing. I mean, I've said it all before. For every new stupid thing that comes out of MS, I've seen and mocked something similar at least a dozen times. That, plus the fact that MS stupidity doesn't affect my life as much now that I'm using Linux exclusively at home and almost exclusively at work, means I'm not as bitter toward MS as I used to be. The mockery came from the bitterness, but now I'm just amused I ever had to deal with it at all. Sure, I still chuckle at headlines where MS does something silly, but I don't feel the same validation I did in the early days (for me '97).
:p
Basically, my whole mood has just settled down over the years. I got it out of my system. I even recognize things that MS has done well on. I'm still not impressed, but I'm not a zealot anymore.
Hm. Is anyone going to believe I'm not a zealot when I say "MS has in fact done some things right, but still sucks"? Well, not being a zealot doesn't mean I don't have opinions.
The enemies of Democracy are
The point is, instead of taking a bad product and trying to convince us that it is good, why not spend the time to make a good product?
Imagine also how Microsoft would be perceived if they sold, for example, phonograph records or videotapes. If they started with a baseline compatible player, but then added features to their unit that made their media incompatible with all the other vendors, they would surely face great scrutiny, perhaps greater than what they face now. It seems to me that the fact that this involves "intellectual property" compatibility issues gives them more leeway.
A good product from Microsoft must:
I'd like to see them do a lot more. I'd like to see Gecko used in the next IE (since it's so broken anyway). I'd like to see Apache used as the next IIS (since it's so broken anyway). I'd like to see a sane policy on vulnerability disclosure and patches.
What we have is a bully pushing substandard products. Until this changes, there are many places that thier sales force will never go, in spite of the rhetoric.
my parents who have no clue what the difference between a bit and a byte is can start rattling off MS Windows deficiencies, but it (will/does/is going to) take full fledge engineers to discover the same in the Unix systems.
Your parents probably have significant end-user experience with Microsoft systems (office, at home, etc) and therefor can list end-user deficiences. Your parents' lack of technical knowledge means they can't tell you about technical deficiencies, just things they don't like.
There are few large system sales that take place that don't involve a sales engineer, since the sales guy is often some geek in a suit that sold cars last week and will be selling copiers next week. The sales engineer is the one that gives you all the biased benchmarks and tells you it will fit your racks, etc.
Cut... Paste into a telnet session..
What 'trace'?
Granted, not 'technically' a 'forward', but still.
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
Webmin is not a tool for apache, it is a wholly separate product that runs on a different port than apache.
Actually, it was the part about them commissioning an "independent analysis" that pissed me off. While we can't really figure out whether the first part of the report has been completed or not, they say the second part, the "full-blown cost analysis" won't be available until May, yet they already seem to know that the results will be a huge boon for them. That doesn't sound like a legitimate independent analysis to me.
Then there's the part about them using their power to audit a company's Windows installations as an excuse for a Linux-use fishing expedition. Sounds like they're stepping outside the bounds of what is included in their EULA and what is backed by law. Of course it's sad that some companies will cave and give them any info they want, but it's a rather slimy tactic to begin with.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
I looks like the VP doesn't know how to prrof read his important emails:
"I know what out customers share with us is in confidence that we will keep it internal."
It's one thing when post a comment, but an official company email?
At the next eco-hypocrisy-meeting, count the private jets used to get to the meeting. Should be interesting to see that
Obviously all salary and overhead figures will depend on the local market - there will be a huge difference in the price of talent in San Francisco (esp. in 1999 or early 2000) vs. Cleveland.
Likewise support requirements can vary widely depending on the local policies - Mac and Unix overhead is generally less because users can be expected to do some of the work for themselves. If you have knowledgable users - and management that doesn't fear them - you don't need as many MCSEs. If management fears its employees (I remember one shop where they panicked because a friend locked his screen when he went to lunch), you'll need a lot more support staff because they are required for everything.
The key point is unchanged - the salary costs dwarf the costs of the basic software license. Microsoft tends to push the fact that Unix people tend to be more expensive, we counter by pointing out that fewer Unix people are required. Worrying about a few thousand dollars for a license misses the point.
As for server licenses - what do they cost now? Specifically, I remember a friend having to fight a battle over databases - Oracle wanted something close to a quarter million, MSSQL was about half that but required converting servers to NT/W2K and (iirc) there was a lot of uncertainty over the number of CALs required.
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Personally, I still can't believe it (as in, it astonishes me) but I would have to accept it. Sorry that I doubted you, but you have to admit that an AC on Slashdot isn't exactly a reputable source :-)
We're embarking on several initiatives in 2002 to deal with this.
-
The "99.999%" reliability program will be offered competitively to IT shops which use
only Microsoft software.
-
Presentations to Fortune 1000 clients will emphasize the migration path planned
for Windows XP and its successors, which will move consumers away from a
generic Web environment to one that requires
.NET-enabled web sites.
-
We will be introducing a new mail protocol in 2002 which will replace the
present "SMTP" protocol. This protocol will provide authentication of
mail senders (but not encryption of content) and will protect mail servers
from unauthorized use. The client for this mail protocol will be distributed
as an update to Internet Explorer. Initially, users will see no change
as a result of this action. But when ISPs transition to our replacement
for Post Office Protocol, our mail clients
will treat old-format unauthenticated mail as potentially hostile.
In high-security environments, old-format mail will be down-converted
from HTML to plain text, and attachements will be stripped.
Our intellectual property will prevent the cloning of this mail protocol, giving
us control of the worldwide e-mail system within three years.
-
We are working with PC manufacturers to develop firmware which
enforces a secure boot process.
This will prevent the loading of non-signed operating systems.
While any company will potentially be able to obtain permission
to sign an bootable file, we are working with the National Infrastructure
Protection Center to insure that such authority is only available to
U.S. companies able to qualify for Government security clearances.
With these new initiatives, you should have no trouble convincing top IT management that conversion to an all-Microsoft environment is inevitable."The second wave will be a full blown cost analysis comparison case study between Linux and Windows in a variety of usage scenarios (web, file and print, etc.) done independently by the analysts for us. ETA for this tool is in May and it will be a great tool to help you sell the value of Windows solutions over Linux.
So they already know the results of this 'independent' study, huh?
__
Do ya feel happy-go-lucky, punk?
Come on, Microsoft is commissioning an "independent full-blown cost-analysis comparison", the final results of which are not going to be available until May, yet they already happen to know the results will be a huge boon for their sales team? Talk about a load... The Register got it exactly right saying that MS had commissioned the study by the "'we'll-conclude-anything' whores DH Brown."
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
I don't see why this email is interesting, outside of being additional evidence that you can buy the results you want from some consulting companies. The rest of the letter is just sales hype and tips that hold no surprises.
The phrasing sounds very much like Microsoft manager-speak, and the banal content makes it unlikely that it's faked.
Some people are confused by his statement about tracking forwards of the email. Exchange can track forwards within the system (Microsoft's corporate LAN), and the author points out that he used to manage the Exchange group, so he should know. Of course, a mole in Redmond could always cut and paste the email to send it off to the press, but that's not what Mr. Valentine is worried about here. He's mostly worried about *accidental* leakage because people have auto-forwarding rules in Outlook that will spread the email to other MS groups and possibly to outside the LAN (corporate partners, perhaps).
Some readers suggested that the author might have or should have tracked leaks by sending slightly different emails to each recipient. The problem with that is that this mail probably went to hundreds or thousands of people, based on the two Exchange aliases it was mailed to: WW [Worldwide?] Sales, Marketing & Services Group. Think, people.
The media hype surrounding Linux may have died with the various high-profile linux company's stock prices but that doesn't mean Linux has stopped making inroads.
An example of this would be Java. When Sun released it everyone was shouting Java this and Java that and how it would change the world yada yada yada. Sound familiar? Well Java news has been pretty slim in the non-geek world (or at least from what I've seen.) However, Java has been making big inroads into the back-end systems that don't get much media converage. One might assume Java had gone the way of many a dead language without realizing it's at work behind the scenes and growing.
man RTFM
No manual entry for RTFM.
Lots of SSL servers don't run an e-commerce site but are used for an extranet, or for access to internal webmail...
-------
Warning: Slashdot may contain traces of nuts.
Their like corrupt Ferengi, but the difference is that even Ferengi have rules they play by.
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Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
What is more interesting is the corollary of your point of Mac/Linux users "doing it for themselves". In the Windoze shop, you often have a number of folks who are taking the easy route and putting up the system that everyone else does, just because everyone else does it. Origional thinking this isn't and usually shows in the products. Also, just because its easy to hire folks, doesn't mean you want to hire them. People are the driving force of any and all industries these days. Having a bunch of people that will do the same thing that everyone else does the same way everyone else does it, pretty much guarantees that they will get the results that every one else does. Total medocracy at best.
It seems that knowing the results before the "independant consultant" performs the survey is ... strange.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
It seems that he used to run the Exchange software division (or some such). I don't know what his e-mail preference is ... KMail?
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
OMFG, If you need an MCSE for every five people then you have some pretty god damn stupid MCSEs. We have about 35 servers and 400 users, all over the US and there are 4 of us and we had 0% downtime last year. ZERO. Of course we are smart enough to understand clustering things like the DB servers so they exude a death rattle, but maybe that's just because none of us are paper MCSEs. That figure just seems way out of hand, our network runs like a well oil machine and I think have an 80 person IT department would just mess that up/.
-- I am baseball in Minnesota.
Last time I bought a Linux machine, it came with Linux pre-installed. But a CD with Win98 was included. Was it free? Or bundled into the price without my noticing?
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Python is a pretty good scripting language, and it could probably manage the e-mail. And it is available on most versions of windows. I don't know about Win2000 or XT, but I assume so.
If Python doesn't suit you (check out the Active State version if Windows specific stuff is where you live), then you could look at Perl or Ruby.
Still, depending on the size of his distribution list he might delegate the job to his secretary rather than get someone to program it.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Kmail? How do you have your preferences set? My copy of Kmail wouldn't autoreply. (The check box, by the way, clearly indicates that choosing to auto-enable HTML is insecure. So I only do it for selected e-mails, and then I uncheck it again.)
P.S.: KMail feature request: A button on the tool bar that will temporarily enable HTML for the current message only.
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I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
As was mentioned in The Register article, the amazing and unexpected thing is that he knows what the independant consultants are going to find out before they have conducted their investigation.
I don't know about you, but I find that quite significant. And definite evidence of unethical behavior. Criminal? Possibly not. I wouldn't know as IANAL, but clearly unethical. Suborning expert testimony which is then going to be used as evidence to support lying to their customers. Sounds like fraud to me, but as I said IANAL.
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I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
(this is my first ever post)
I have to agree with you on that. I'm an admin at Leiden University and my part of the network, though small with about 100 computers and ~180 users, would cost about $10000 if we would install W2k and Office on just 25 computers (even though we also have an enterprise agreement going for us).
This would be all of our requirements as 75% of our desktops run Linux (who said Linux wasn't ready for the desktop? It's been ready for about 2 years now! And these are non-technical users too!).
We spend about 60% of our time on the 25% Windows computers/users however. So I think I can safely say that both in initial costs and in maintenance Windows is quite a bit more expensive than Linux.
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Or that he was smart enough to not send the mail from within the Microsoft network, but from his home machine.
Sig (appended to the end of comments I post, 54 chars)
Where? I would KILL to get the Equiv of $150K a year for me.... that would be $75,000 a year in my pocket (gross, about $30.00 after taxes.... THAT's A JOKE PEOPLE)
Most admins are paid $40-$50K and a benefits package that is about 60% of that amount.
your price per admin is insanely high. that amount would be for a manager. Oh and California salaries are not realistic... the other 95% of the country doesnt overpay and overcharge.)
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Just my $.02 - this guy wouldn't have made it through college english. I may well be begging for an onslaught of "you're being picky", but his grammar is horrible. This can't be for real ... but, wait ... no, I understand now - he used Word to grammar/spell check his e-mail!
Ah ... the dawning light of understanding. ;)
When I mention problems I've had with various Windows systems, I'm simply dismissed (in most cases) with something along the lines of "sounds like you don't know what you're doing." Hello? I thought that, for Mom & Pop to have an OS that's Ready For The Desktop(TM) that Mom & Pop should be able to be drooling idiots and still check their email. Now we have to have fairly sophisticated knowledge of Windows to be a desktop OS user? Yet Linux On The Desktop(TM) has to 1.) support every known piece of hardware without requiring any computer skills or even any user interaciton 2.) have replacement apps for MS Office apps that support 100% of Office docs, 3.) an interface that's 100% identical to Windows, 4.) allow the rooling-idiot Mom & Pop to go buy Windows (and hell, Mom & Pop sometimes accidentally grab Mac apps; IMHO, if they do that, they really don't need a computer) apps at Babbage's and have a.) the CD automounted b.) have WINE run autostart.exe (or whatever it is; I've not use Windows for a while) and c.) have 0% problems running the Windows app? Oh, and if it's not too much trouble, have the same level of support for MacOS apps, in case Mom & Pop can't be bothered to read the label (or section headers in the store)? 5. Make it so easy to install, a trained chimp could do it.
Folks, if those are the criteria for an OS being ready for the desktop, not even MacOS or WinXP pass. Sorry.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
What if the mole is not an addressee? True, it would get them one step closer to the mole, but if I were aiming to do this kind of leaking, I'd be passively network-sniffing and shoving the encoded and disguised emails out to a binary newsgroup or something else I can grab it from anonymously.
Brian's probably not even wondering what this busy little process on his laptop called NetBus.DLL is for.
OTOH, given Microsoft's typical security competency levels, one of the addressees is probably a channel partner called leaks@theregister.co.uk...
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Anyone want to lay bets that the cover letter to the Register read, "I send you this file in order to have your advice"? :D
MS Suit: and this box over here, what's it running?
Joe, IT Manager: It's a debian box I built out of spares, and it basically runs everything. File services, web, FTP, mail, database, legacy apps, a few instant messengers, name service, firewall, proxy, virus filter, the lot. I haven't had it off-line in the last year. The other boxes are there to make the server room look good and keep the managers and accountants happy. I think some of them run game servers.
MS Suit: Could you repeat that, please? I can't write that fast. What's in an `F' teepee? And you reckon it's poxy? Why's that?
Joe (rolling eyes): We are out of touch.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Only twice! Dear me, a recent WildList (208 qualifying, 695 total) still mentions the ancient KaK worm as current! The same mistakes have been made thousands of times by Microsoft. Why was CodeRed II called CodeRed II?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Doh! I looked at this message not this message. Sorry about that, my fault. The stego part was my main comment, I just noticed the (wrong) timestamp at the last second.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
Last time I checked (this morning in Debian) you go "Monitor Setup -> Simple -> 17 inch" and it works.
XFree86 also has DDC support (1 and 2) so it is highly unlikely you need to put in timing lines unless you're running non-standard (fixed frequency) monitors from the 80s.
My favorite quote from the article: "Many Linux projects in CAS and Depth accounts happen below the IT Manager/BDM level."
Back in the early days of Apache, I was one of those guys who deployed a "stealth" Linux box as a web server because nobody wanted to spend money on a concept that only a few people understood. "What is this web server and why do we need one?". A tough sell if you don't have anything to demonstrate. Corporate use of Linux got a big push from the "unbudgeted mandate" -- the need to provide specialized services in the absense of funding.
Today, I am an IT Manager, and I choose Linux by default unless I am unavoidably locked into M$ compatibility. In my experience, M$ products have proven to be costly, unreliable, and unsecure. I have Linux boxes in the US, Europe, and Asia. For the time being M$ rules the desktop, but that may change eventually. To me, Mr. Valentine's view of the world is somehow stuck in 1993.
It's not just a 24/7 support. It's someone to blame 24/7. Which is the way things really work in the fourtune 500.
Now, compared to IBM and HP, Microsoft support sucks. This is what my last contact with "premier support" was like:
Me: I have such and such problem.
MS: I'd found a solution it's in Hotfix XXXX.
Me: That's a 10 meg file, what's fixed in it.
MS: Well, it's really more like a service patch.
Me: What's fixed in it?
MS: I don't have any information on it. The Engineers do document Hot fixes for that product line.
Me: How am I supposed to evaluate the risks in rolling this out?
MS: I'm sorry sir I can't help you there......
This goes around and around. I call the Global Account Manager at MS who grovels for a while and sets up a confrence call with the product manager. The product manager skips the call, and I get to hear three MS people bitch about internal politics for 30 minutes and do some more groveling.
IBM, HP, document everything, in detail. It's one of those things you get from real IT componies that understand the technical needs of a large client.
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
Considering we all agree that if the memo is real, it's lame. Considering that some /. readers actually are 'dows partisans. Considering that the best war game is one where you give your best talent to playing the enemy. What would one of us who sees the obviousness of Linux's quick victory (prediction: in less than 6 months it will present an unqualifiedly superior desktop/workstation alternative - okay, this is probably wrong, but the improbable happens often) ... um, what would a good war-gaming Linux partisan do to play the Microsoft hand? What would the 'soft propoganda statement be if ESR sold out for, say, the value his VA stock once had?
No shit, I'd really like to see the best case, the one Microsoft's own brilliant idiots are too blindered to see. It's the best prep for our victory.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
Last time I checked, you still needed to know the dot clock and monitor frequency settings in XFree86 in order to change the screen resolution and color depth.
No the system administrator needs to do this. This need not be the same person as the user. Unlike with Windows where the assumption tends towards end users performing sysadmin tasks...
If one person is to do both tasks then they need to have the appropriate skill set.
In Windows you only need to right click on the desktop, and go to properties, and then to adapter, where the settings are right there. Click, click, click, and done.
It's quite possible to get a Windows machine to output video which the monitor won't accept at all. Even with supposedly "plug and play" monitors. Getting out of this is a lot trickier than a few mouse clicks.
And both OS's run on essentially the same hardware. So why, pray tell, do you need to know this stuff for linux and not for Windows??? Is there any good reason I should need to know this stuff?
Is there any good reason why a system administrator should not be able to choose which screen resolutions should be available on a Windows desktop...
Program installation is still a pain in the ass for a novice user.
/usr/local/whatever, that is if the package installs it there instead of /root/whatever or god knows where else.
In a great many circumstances users being able to install programs is a big problem with Windows. It costs a lot in support and sorting out the resulting mess. Also employers can end up being liable for their employees installing unlicenced software. There is actually quite a market of third party products to stop end users being able to install software on Windows machines...
Linux distros have a hard time focusing on a desktop only Linux. In reality, my mom could care less if she could spawn a web server on her home box.
This isn't "The desktop", it's a rather specific subset called "The standalone end user administered desktop". In reality even many "home" machines are no end user administered anyway.
Linux's configuration is too difficult for most people. There is no standardization between config files. No end user should have to learn a whole new language each time they want to change a simple option.
Fixing cars is too difficult for many people. Different cars can require different tools to service. But that dosn't mean that everyone must drive the same car... Because most people understand the difference between using and servicing/maintaining/building/fixing a car. Problem is that they don't when it comes to computers.
The filesystem structure is terrible for the end user. Putting an app in "C:\Program Files" or "Hard Disk:Applications" is a hell of a lot simpler than
Have the average driver identify the parts of their car engine. It dosn't matter if they can or they can't, since what they need to know is what driving controls do.
It's quite possible to get a Windows machine to output video which the monitor won't accept at all. Even with supposedly "plug and play" monitors. Getting out of this is a lot trickier than a few mouse clicks
It certainly possible to output video that the monitor won't accept. Tricky, but possible. One way, for example, it to uncheck the option box that says "Hide Modes that this monitor cannot display", which may give a bit of a hint as to what might happen.
To get out of it you Do Nothing. All you do is wait 15 seconds and it will go back to your previous settings.
Is there any good reason why a system administrator should not be able to choose which screen resolutions should be available on a Windows desktop...
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Screen resolutions are a function of the hardware, so the SA's choice is not really a choice. If you mean that the SA's should be able to set the screen resolution for the user, who can't change it, that can be done to. You can also let the user change the screen resolution if you wish.
So anyone who is going to leak something, take notice: at the very least, reformat the message (in MS Word!), run it through a punctuation checker. Or retype it entirely from a printed copy (and say it's a retyped transcribed version to be honest).
Of course he could vary a word randomly and track it this way too.
and Microsoft's targets are all non-M$ servers. But they'll have a hard time convincing all but the most naive IT executives with a commissioned "independent" study. I don't know about Sun or HP, but IBM has actual case studies for various industries to back up their sales presentations. And IBM will do an onsite competitive analysis using your actual and projected costs, comparing their offerings against your current environment and the costs of competing vendors. Microsoft better pack a lunch.
However, M$ will still be able to buy some business somehow. I can hear the CTO office conversations now....
"So Mr/Ms M$ sales-droid, why do you think Microsoft offers lower Total Cost of Ownership - that's what TCO means right?
"Well, our higher licensing costs include support that Linux doesn't offer. There is no one firm responsible for Linux - but Microsoft is there for you with support."
"I can buy Linux support for less than your licenses cost.... Why would I want to pay you more for bad service? Licensing terms that say you're not responsible for anything bad that happens to us by using your software, no way no how, never? Support that costs EXTRA, over and above licensing? Tier 1 tech support that needs help getting dressed in the morning? Added charges for Tier 2/3 support? And NOT TO MENTION most of our problems are caused by your own sloppy code, insecure defaults, arcane proprietary system internals, file format incompatibilities! Where is my credit for all these costs?"
"Er, Microsoft makes the best software; everyone uses this."
"Yes, everyone in our offices surfs the 'net, downloads porn and music files, and wastes time chatting online - all well enabled by your promiscuous everything-enabled Windows! And I have a dozen MSCE-papered dweebs running around fixing peoples' self-disabled capabilities to do that instead of work! I can replace that dozen MSCEs with just 2 or 3 Linux people tomorrow. What does that do for your TCO calculations, huh? Do you have any real answer to Linux? I'm very interested."
"Well, we do have some er, confidential partnership offers."
"Is this where you offer me a rather... personal incentive?"
"Um, why yes, now that you mention it. Do you have a non-US bank account by any chance?"
"(Sliding paper over the desk). Well, harumph, having dealt with all my considerations, on balance it's Microsoft here."
[I will be working on this more in depth later]
Notice the best thing about XP is already in Linux?
Users? Firewall? Services [I can change the OS!]? Themes?
Get your Unix fortune now!
It certainly possible to output video that the monitor won't accept. Tricky, but possible. One way, for example, it to uncheck the option box that says "Hide Modes that this monitor cannot display", which may give a bit of a hint as to what might happen.
You won't find such an option in all versions of Windows. Also you are relying on the software to have worked this out correctly. Good luck...
To get out of it you Do Nothing. All you do is wait 15 seconds and it will go back to your previous settings.
Unless the user, on seeing his or her screen go black starts pressing keys and mouse buttons. How can they read a message which isn't there?
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Screen resolutions are a function of the hardware, so the SA's choice is not really a choice. If you mean that the SA's should be able to set the screen resolution for the user, who can't change it, that can be done to. You can also let the user change the screen resolution if you wish.
Can you under Windows give someone a choice of only 600x800 or 1024x768? Or maybe something which isn't a "standard" resolution which the hardware is perfectly capable of?
One has asked that, specific to word documents. I gave them a copy of star-office and they didn't like it and asked if there was any other way of dealing with Microsoft word documents. I said sure. Save the document under word at work as a rtf and anything on the planet can read it.
This user now only saves items as rtf, even when they use Word at work. and they have reported that they even have their boss now using rtf instead of doc for saving... Granted this person works for a company with a mix of pc's and Mac's and I guess I gave them a solution that their IS/IT department couldn't come up with other than buy office for all the macs....
I did mention to them that I can get office 97 to run under wine... we'll see if they want me to do that...
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Well, in that case, it's a cover your ass move. CTO: What are we doing about this?
You: Well, I hit linuxdoc.org, and nada. So I sent in an 'ask slashdot' question, and posted to to some newsgroups. I'm hoping that I won't get told to 'RTFM' or that I'm a 'l4m3r!' or anything. Or... CTO: What are we doing about this?
You: Well, as soon as I realized that it wasn't going to be a thirty second fix, I called up our Technical Account Manager. He's organizing things on their end, and I'm expecting a call back at any minute. I reminded him of how much of a support contract we have, and how much business we're losing per minute.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
I guess I'm one of them. I know the Morlocks and the Eloi from Jules Verne's book (The Time Machine). I'm not sure if the original had the "tech creators vs. tech user's" bias, but it seems many found that interpretation later. Neal Stephenson was one of them - I discovered his interpretation in the excellent essay "In the Beginning was the Command Line". The essay is primarily about operating systems, and can be found online on his Cryptonomicon site.
Go back to the OED and look up "joke", and then carry on for real.
Virg
I wrote a series of essays on alt.religion and alt.philosophy.debate about the existance of God as it applies to the HUP. The thread is, "Does God Necessarrily Have To Be Intelligent?".. I just picked up a few interesting insights while I was there, the pink unicorn line included.
Bowie J. Poag
The person you replied to indicated that the mole may not even be an adressee- if the guy's box has been compromised with netbus or BO2k, etc. then the guy on the controlling end of the backdoor can do just about anything they want, possibly without ever being caught doing it.
It may be the sender's box that's compromised or one of the recipients for this to work, but because it's out in the wild (and assuming it's not a hoax by anyone including MS themselves...) doesn't always mean that the parties violated policy.
Having said this, the likelyhood of the mole being one of the recipients is very high.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I mean, if they're rousting people, perhaps it's time to see who they're cracking the whip over and show them a better way of doing things.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
>well, on slashdot, with the atrocious grammar and poor vocabularies
> that most people apparently have, it would not have been at all unusual
> for your post to have been serious.
Point conceded. My apologies if I sounded too snide.
Virg