Power Water Cooling Kits
msolnik writes: "Toms Hardware has but together a head to head comparison of 4 different water cooling kits. Instead of buying each part seperately these kits come with everything needed. I would love to use water cooling but there is just something about having water inside of my case that makes me very uneasy. But for all you hardcore overclockers out there this may help you out a lot."
I'll stick to good ol' liquid nitrogen
--- Do you believe in the day?
That's kind of a stretch on their part. Try 2 kits, each with 2 differently sized heat transfer blocks. To save you some time, they like the one from Innovatech, and despise the other one. Want a big surprise? They like BOTH "kits" from Innovatech and hate BOTH "kits" from the other guys
But the Water Still's least expensive cooler runs around $169. That model doesn't even have 'hot and cold' options. It'd be cheaper just to keep my bottled water in the refrigerator.
Seriously, I've often considered water cooling in my Athlon system, but every time I decide to go ahead and order it, the night before I place the order, I have a horrible nightmare about sparks and electrical fire leaping up out of my computer from where the water-line broke.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
But in terms of voiding warranties, possibly destroying hardware, and overheating delicate computer systems, I never really had the urge to do it. I just can't understand the reasoning behind overclocking a processor just to squeeze a couple of extra megahertz out of it, when it's nearly impossible to tell the difference between MHz these days.
Any overclockers care to enlighten me regarding the reasoning behind overclocking?
If you use destilled water it doesn't conduct and you should be fine, even IF it leaks.
Unless I didn't quite get it correctly back in School....
Michael
If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
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I think one of the best water coolers I have ever seen was when these guys built a heat exchanger on the principle of heat loss through water evaporation. Very nice concept, and it approached the idea of cooling water down properly in the first place.
Does anyone have a link that shows why AMD systems run hot? I'd like to see some unbiased info about that. I'm split between Intel, AMD and Mac. AMD users seem to really love their systems, almost as much as Mac users. Intel users seem to be quite indifferent (they often zoom in on video cards instead of processors for discussions). I guess I'd just like to get the big picture. Any suggestions?
Actually, I should have posted above this too...
Ars Technica Ars OpenForum 2.0a Case and Cooling Fetish
...gives you a chance to talk to real people about this topic, rather than reading reviews and articles.
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And nothing will earn more respect and admiration from the hardware fan as a water cooler.
That's funny, I would have thought the fan would be jealous of the water cooler.
"And like that
I don't care what kind of cooling my system uses I just wish they will one day come up with something QUIET!
I mean, listening to all them fans is irritating enough, I don't need an addition of gurgling and refrigerator noises, however appropriate those may be in some games.
I, for one, would be really happy if they started making AMD athlon XP 2000 processors, clocked down to the equivalent of an athlon 1Ghz. Fast enough for most purposes and maybe that'll allow me to ditch the fan and the accompanying noise.
-- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
What about SMP systems?
Do I have to buy 2 seperate systems for my processors or can I just pipe in a second waterblock? also has anyone done any examples of how this provides a significant improvement over a giant block of aluminum and a couple of good fans?
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
A lot of things with solid state power amplifiers
have had water or ammonia convection coolers in them
for a very long time... I can't remember ever
hearing of one leaking.
Not to worry.
<VOICE STYLE="Yoda">Two sides of the same coin, we are</VOICE>
The car analogy is another good one; I personally don't care about tweaking my car, but I have friends here at work who talk about racing their cars, exhaust systems, distributor caps, etc. I just sit back and nod, not having the first clue what they're talking about. I guess that's just a type of personality, and I don't have it. Thanks, cavemanf16.
In the days of the Celeron 300a this made sense⦠but now? I mean how much difference, REALLY, do you notice between 100 and 120 fps? Or how much better is your life going to get if your kernel compile is 1.2 seconds faster?
Donâ(TM)t get me wrong⦠faster is always good⦠but the costs⦠some people spend more money on overclocking gear for there machine then it would cost to just buy the faster processor in the first place. There is also the noise that all this stuff generates. I would much rather spend the extra money to make my computer more quieter.
Just my 2 cents CDN (about 0.3 cents USD)
--- tracer.ca
Many years ago I worked in a lab where shipboard sonar equipment was being built. Their cooling system for the high power units consisted of aluminum plates with embedded copper tubing carrying filtered sea water right through the rack of electronics. It carried away the heat quite well, but the whole thought of using sea water was antithetical to everything I would normally consider.
On the other hand, large high power vacuum tubes have been water cooled for many decades. The most impressive were the vapor-phase cooling units in which the cooling was done by boiling the water off of the external anode of the tube. The steam was then condensed back into water in an outdoor cooling tower.
Soli Deo Gloria
Looks like these guys in taiwan have been doing water cooling for amd processors for quite a while.
Dont know how good it is, but this article has a huge peice (fnar)on how it all works if you're interested (its a bit old tho', May 2000 sometime according to google)...
"So there he is, risen from the dead. Like that fella, E. T." - Father Ted Crilly
Actually, if you use distilled water, you don't have much to worry about. Distilled water is a very poor conductor. If you were to use tap water(which has salt, among other minerals in it) then you'd be in some danger. It's the minerals that make water a conductor(albeit, a pretty poor conductor at that).
What you need is de-ionised(sp?) water, not just distilled. Distilled water should ensure that you don't have extra salts and crap, but you can still have water ions (H+ and OH-) which will conduct electricity.
If you fitted a de-ionising plant to your water filter / pump system then in theory you could be pretty safe with water leaks.. except for rusting of course.. but some people might that that was a little bit over the top :)
If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let'em go, because, man, they're gone.
The problem of course is the quantity of dust in the average computer. Any leaks are going to automatically create impure water as soon as it hits a dusty chip. This may not be good.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Watercooling could be a real nice way to have a fast but silent system. All watercooling kits I have seen yet, still have fans and aren't really silent. I would really like to spend $200 on a watercooling kit or case if I could get a system without fans and without the danger of damageing my hardware with leaked water. A water or oil cooled case that includes a fluid cooled powersupply would be really nice. I think there would be lots of firms that would spend $400 more on a silent system for there highly payed it-professionals because it makes them more productive.
Jan
I think people are forgetting that there are easier (and reasonably cheap) ways to speed up your computer.
First, get as much RAM as you can afford. Get at least 128 MB RAM; however, with the price of SDRAM DIMM's being so dirt-cheap nowadays you might as well get 256 MB or even 512 MB. With that much RAM, you can open way more programs concurrently and also because you use the hard drive way less for virtual memory, programs in general can run as much as 60% or more faster.
Second, get the fastest hard drive you can afford. If you system supports ATA-33/66/100/133 IDE interface connections, make sure the drive runs at 7200 rpm and make sure the drive has a generous buffer memory size (2 MB minimum).
I don't find overclocking such a great idea, especially now with the price of CPU's dropping like stone in water even for the faster CPU's.
Did anyone else notice, or was anyone else bothered by the fact that Tom's super-deluxe testing station has a Innovatek sticker on it?
Innovatek is, of course, the brand of water cooler Tom found to be superior in his testing.
Groovy.
And my timely, intelligent submissions never make it to the front page? Grumble groan...
"Yeah, I was thinking of putting SCSI and a water cooler on my Packard Bell Multimedia 5000, dude..."
grumble groan...
What if Afghan women actually have the best bodies in the world? Think about it.
Ok, I've thought about it. Every time I've seen you post it. And I still don't get it. What's your point?
I don't feel that the conclusions reached by Tom's Hardware are quite fair. Yes, the Innovatek coolers cooled better than the Swiftech models, but not by all that much. It may very well be that the Innovatek has better quality hardware as well. However, I found one key element missing from their tests. They posted no accoustic measurments, even though they posted a picture of their "sound level meter". If the Swiftech kit can cool better than the premier aircooled device, but do so without a fan, that sounds like a good deal to me. I would also like to see the prices of the various systems.
Innovatek is a popular name, but this seems to be the web site for the manufacturer referenced in the article. The English version isn't ready yet, so be German or be Babelfish.
What do you mean they cut the power? How can they cut the power, man? They're animals!
With the price of CPUs being what they are, why would anyone overclock? If you motherboard can handle it, just spend the $67 and buy a faster CPU.
Once before, you could buy a $200 celeron and make it run as fast as a $800 pIII. There was really something to be had there. What are you going to do today, make a $60 CPU run as fast as an $80 CPU? What's the point? Why don't you just get the $80 CPU? I'm sure your mom will give you the extra $20.
Anyone who's owned a car KNOWS that it's only a matter of time before their cooling system springs a leak. Granted the conditions under the hood are quite a bit more demanding than inside a computer; but the fact remains the same-- IT'S ONLY A MATTER OF TIME.
i made mine for less than 100$ and i run my 1000mhz at ~49C.
OK so this may be a little off topic but here's one for ya. Being a little too overwhelmed with work I didn't want to take the "build your own computer with water cooler solution" and picked up a Compaq EVO500 Small form factor PC dirt cheap on EBAY. Nice and quiet but I am now stuck with a "low profile" AGP card. The included one is dirt slow (NVIDIA Vanta). I found a couple of others GEFORCE2 MX200, etc. But most are crap. Anyone know of a decent "Low Profile" Card?
When I was a Sonar Technician in the US Navy, we used large display consoles with dual 21" display units in them. They ran on on 120v/400Hz power and the driving units got very hot. They were cooled with distilled water that ran through a fairly complex chilling operation (after all, it's a government operation, right?).
One of the cooling loops inside a console sprung a leak and sprayed water around. Now bear in mind that the voltages inside these display units are like those in a TV set, so they're substantially greater than a computer's, but the resulting fireworks INSIDE the sealed cabinet just about sent me crawling up the nearest bulkhead. Noise, sparks and a tremendous mess that ultimately cost about $50,000 to repair. And it wasn't uncommon...about once a year a cooling loop would let go on some piece of equipment.
Incidentally, the only reason that the loops used distilled water was so that there would be little or no mineral buildup inside the cooling loops. In some cases, the stainless tubing in use was quite small, perhaps a quarter inch in diameter. Believe me, once that water hit the equipment, even a bit of accumulated dust caused it to conduct quite well, thank you!
-h-
What's wrong with Tom? I believe he neglected to use fans on the swiftech kit, and it still came close to performing aswell as the other kit. What's that tell you? Tom never does proper reviews on watercooling. If you want real information head to www.overclockers.com or hardOCP forums.
For $200, just get a Koolance PC2-C case. Cools perfectly, huge capacity, pre-assembled solution. I got one a month ago, and it is wonderful. Plus, it comes in a very nice-looking case, with a space for the tank, radiator, fans, etc very nicely planned out. Plus, they offer hard drive and video chipset coolers as add-ons that you can simply put in-line.
I am looking at installing a vary cheap water cooling system, the trick is to use a vary large heat sink, in my case this will be the Mediterranian. I am installing a PC in my boat for Navigation and Entertainment. The almost limitless supply of cool water is too good to resist (Plus no fan noise if I can work out how to get +/- 5v and -12v from my boats 12v DC system). Maybee I will have the first salt water cooled PC :-)
Maybe you live in interesting times
Wrong
cpus nowadays go much faster than any software currently available will need.
i know this sounds like bill gates' infamous 640k remark, but why on earth do you need to go faster than 1.6ghz?!?
thats a lot of expense & trouble to go through just to get a few more seti packets done every week.
USD200 for a cooling "solution" that does worse than a good old fashioned heat sink and fan? Check out this link over at Lost Circuits. I could /.'ed any of the many roundups out there but randomly chose this one. The best performing heatsink kept their test chip (a 1900+ overclocked to what should be around a 2000+) at 46C at full load, and that cooler runs for about USD72. Heck, for a top of the line (for the moment) Athlon XP 1900+ you're putting out about $250 and going a step down saves you USD60.
If we were still in the days when major steps up in CPU speed were measured in the hundreds of dollars then these coolers would be a good idea, but we're not anymore. Buy a decent heatsink and a couple quiet case fans with filters and you're far better off in the long run.
Okay, is it just me or does anyone else get suspicious of graphs that only show ONE axis?? I'm assumeing that the x-axis is supposed to be wattage produced by their mock cpu's, but what's the scale?
Hell I might even be wrong, for all I know they're measuring body temperature over time as the tester realizes he's fried another cpu due to faulty cooling.
That way i dont have to worry about leakage from othar than my memory all the time. Residues inside the pipes may be able to fry your cpu over time aswell. Besides, with cpus running at 2.2 Mhz, isnt the biggest speedblock right now the pipe between the cpu and the periferals? No big gain to have a cpu that runs circles around the mem/hd/internet connection is it?
HTTP/1.1 400
PCB conduct heat, but not electricity!!
eg: Many metals have a specific heat in the low hundreds. Water is in the mid-thousands. So, a one degree celcius temperature change in the water is in excess of a 10 degree change in the metal.
(This is why water-cooling is popular. Not because water is magic, but because finding a liquid with a lower freezing point and a comparable specific heat is a royal pain.)
Typically, what someone would do is add something to the water, to lower the freezing point. This almost invariably lowers the specific heat, too, but it's a decent compromise, usually. The water is then piped over the relevent components, dragging the heat with it. The water is then cooled by a second cooling system, often freon-based refrigeration. This takes the heat from the water, and (hopefully) gets rid of it fast enough.
The science of heat transfer is not impossibly complex, but it's not trivial, either. The heat and the specific heat are what are important. The temperature is merely a function of these.
(This is why liquid nitrogen sounds good, but isn't really used much. The specific heat is too low, so the temperature rises comparitively quickly. Useless for cooling, unless you have a LOT of liquid nitrogen and are piping it at a decent pace. That makes the pump more expensive, for a start, and would make it essential to use large reservoirs, which you'd need to keep refilling.)
Talking of cooling, there's a pelzier device over on one site linked to from extremecooling.org, which has a delta T of 140 degrees celcius. It's cheap, too. Dragging that kind of temperature off a chip could make cooling -seriously- fun. Again, you'd only need water cooling, to transport the heat, but you'd end up with a chip temperature about that of liquid nitrogen, without the expense, hastle or complications.
Oh, one other thing. Condensation is a killer, when supercooling. Usually, overclockers seem to just waterproof the relevent chip, but heat doesn't stay put. It dissipates. This means that heat will flow from hotter points to colder points. Which means that any water vapor in the air is not guaranteed to stay in the air.
Three possible solutions to this: First, strap on some kind of air conditioner for drying the air, so that there is no moisture in the case to condense. Might work, provided the case was otherwise air-tight. The second option is to not have any air in the case, in the first place. Again, make it air-tight, then set up a partial vaccuum inside. If there's no air, then there's nothing to hold the water. The third option has already been given a Slashdot article, and that's to flood the case with a non-conducting medium that does not mix with water, such as mineral oil. This will keep the water away from anything vital, and might actually help with the cooling effort, across the entire motherboard.
When dissipating the heat, however you build the case, don't forget to have a reflective surface between your dissipation system and the computer. Otherwise, half the heat goes right back into the case, and you're just baking the other chips.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
I propose a new topic for cooling. I enjoy hardware news as much as the next geek, but last thing I need is to see a Cooling-Story-of-the-Week. Please, 90% of us don't care in the very least, and we're the most hardcore of the hardcore. Make it a topic (icon possibilities are endless! think about it!) for this so we can filter it.
I'm not too sure I'd use the fan speed monitor that comes with the Innovatek... it looks like it could do some damage to a motherboard!
This image on page 3 of the article shows a 4-headed cable. Two connectors form a short disk drive power supply extension cord, with the two outer pins (+5v and +12v) tapped off to supply power to the fans. This trick allows the fan to run off of 12-5 = 7 volts (uh, they messed up the math, calling this 8 volts). These red and black wires go to what looks like a male connector to go to the fan. Then, a yellow wire comes from the fan and seems to go to a motherboard fan connector. That's the problem.
First, a little background. As I understand it, the speed feedback is essentially a switch that connects the yellow wire to ground two times per revolution. The motherboard must supply a little bit of power (in the form of a pull-up resistor) to actually get a signal out. This works well because, since the motherboard is supplying the power, it can make sure it doesn't supply too much voltage. If the chipset is 5 volts (impossibly rare nowdays), it'll supply 5 volts. If it's 3.3, it'll supply 3.3. This way, a fan can be used with any voltage chipset.
Ok, the problem is that the ground pin of the fan is connected to the 5 volt power supply. This is the trick used to get 7 volts. The fan will spin and connect the speed feedback wire to the 5 volt "ground". If you've got a chipset that uses 3.3 volts (most likely), you'll be feeding 5 volts into your 3.3 chip - a big no no that could burn out the speed input or the chip (which probably handles lots of other functions you wouldn't want to lose). The voltage on this pin will oscillate between 5 volts and 3.3 volts - not the 0 to 3.3 it expects. If you have a 5 volt chipset, then this pin will oscillate between 5v (shorted to "ground") and, uh, 5 volts (pulled up by the chipset)... so, while not doing any damage in that case, wouldn't work.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
now I just need to hook one end up to a water supply and the other to a coffee filter with an IV tube for that extra shot of high adrelanine computing :)
Bzzzt, wrongo. Distributed.net's RC5 cracking program uses 100% of the CPU and I've had ALL of my overclocked computers working on that for YEARS now. Stable? Yup, rock solid. Granted those systems aren't pushed as far to the edge as my primary workstation but they're all overclocked and two are running dual overclocked CPUs as well. Heat load in the room is pretty bad unfortunatly as is noise.
:-)
:-) Cracked passwords in a noticably shorter time and dual CPUs makes it even better. Until I see a good distributed password cracker that actually works for the WIN32 platform faster CPU speeds is what I need. Heh, and yes this is for legit purposes so leave me alone about it.
As a result I tried using water as a coolant and using Peltiers in order to truly cool down my CPU in the primary workstation. I sourced a fountain pump, trans cooler, large bucket, and built a plastic cap from PVC placed over a standard heatsink. Below this I placed a surplus Peltier and away I went! Ran great too! I placed the trans cooler with a fan on it outside my room's window and noiced one BIG difference - NO NOISE! Talk about a relief, it was great.
Eventually I did run into a problem and it did kill some hardware. My system locked up for some unknown reason. The result was that I no longer had a heat load on the cooling device - a large block of ICE was the result. Was pretty weird to see that when I cam home too! As the outer edges of the ice melted it would drip onto my video card - doh! I ended up losing my video card and having to use a hairdryer on my CPU socket to remove the condensation that had melted. There are ways to prevent most of this but at the time they weren't well known and never thought that a lockup would have this result - I learned the hard way
Thus ended my particular attempt at water cooling. I DO think it's viable though and the newer systems coming out are MUCH more professional than what I had cobbled together several years ago. I'm tempted to try again but I'm starting to grow weary of the Distributed.net contest. My registered E-mail (one registered in the first few months) is no longer valid, I no longer compete with friends for position as they've moved on, and I seldom check my ranking anymore (shrug). I've also not played a graphics intensive game lately that would require such speed. I used to be able to nearly double the speed of a CPU by dropping it's temp into the basement, now with my 1.4Gig Athlon I'm not so sure that I'll get very much out of it. Okay, it is overclocked some but not much - it's a sickness I tell you!
Oh, and I DID see noticable framerate increases by overclocking my CPUs, especially on floating point dependant games of old. These days yes mostly th evideo card is the bottleneck but for programs like Distributed.net it's sure not a problem. CPU temp rises several degrees running such a program if you've got a marginal heatsink.
Do any rendering or compiling? Password cracking? Consider overclocking, done RIGHT with adequate cooling it IS worth it. You spend DAYS rendering something right? What if you could cut 1/3rd off of that? Worth it? I'd do it - at least until I can buy a 1.5gig X 2 AMD system cheaply
P.S. Yes, I hop-up up cars too. If you're afraid of monkeying with one of those then I'm not surprised you won't fiddle with a computer's guts either. BTW, what's a warranty? I've not had one on a computer in years as I build all of my own and save lot's of cash (shrug).
Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
Mineral oil, distilled water, etc... Why not go all the way and hook up a car radiator to the CPU? Cool it with anti-freeze (ethylene glycol), and cool that with air run through a radiator. It's extremely efficient for cars, so why not chips?
it keeps the produce cool and fresh. why not my processor? and, a good song while were at it... "i'm singin' in the rain"... can i have a glass of milk, please?
By your post I can tell your not a mechanic, I was. I can tell you that while yes a cooling system on a car will eventually leak but you have to remeber that this is compleatly diffrent from a water cooling solution.
In a car you have a closed loop system under 13-18PSI @ 212-240F at highest non-engine damageing tempatures. Most common failures in modern cars is the platic tanks on the radiators cracking. This doesn't count on vibration, contstant heating & cooling, & lack of proper maintance.
Hell the rad hoses on my saturn have 120,000 miles on them. Why? Because I know I have to change the fluid, see anti-freeze eats rubber and alunimum when it gets old. Hence the reason you change it. My old lynx was 15 years old and had 290,000 miles before the engine went but had factory hoses on it.
Anyway I guess the point I'm getting at is there is a huge diffrance between a car cooling system and a computer cooling system. While some people will disagree, I can tell you now your not takeing your computer down the road @ 65mph, with an engine speed of 3100rpm, with potholes all over the place. With your car you are, and that's alot of wear and tear.
Om, nomnomnom...
I've been running a Compaq P75 at 90MHz for 5 years now. It is still being used as a file server and is absolutely reliable, running at least twice as fast as the original configuration. TWICE as fast??? Yes, because the 90MHz option doubles the bus speed from 33MHz to 66MHz. So, the advantage of overclocking/tweaking your stock Compaq or IBM PC can be huge.
For anyone who's interested in watercooling a work/production machine, I had great results and gained a LOT of stabilty. Just be sure to install a GFCI on the outlet! The importance of this isn't mentioned in a lot of the commercial kits and could be a life-saving precaution.
The URL to the install, where I got it, how I managed to make it all fit inside a standard mid-tower case along with 4 hard drives and 2 cdroms, etc, can be found at: www.nyx.net/~smanley/watercool
Definately a great learning experience!
..don't panic
Okay. This is offtopic, but at least its in an old story. And to hell with karma.
No, adding a turbo / supercharger (from hereout referred to as "Forced Induction" or F.I.) *will* increase the amount of torque your engine produces. Torque output has nothing to do with gearing (tho effective use of horsepower does). Torque is a measurement of ft/lbs, or how much weight can be lifted in a given amount of time (usually a second for easy math). I say lifted because the joker who came up with such pedantic units of measurement was interested in lifting masses of stuff out of a mineshaft with his horse. Therefore from here out assume that the engine in question uses a block and tackle or something.
So a car with 100ft/lbs of torque at 4000rpm (maybe its a Geo, and its at its peak), the engine can lift 1lb of weight 100ft in a given amount of time. *OR* it can move 100lbs of weight one single foot. That's where the gearing comes in. Overseas they measure torque in sane, metric, Newtons, which makes a whole lot more sense to me.
Now horsepower, on the otherhand, is simply a measurement of how much work can be done in a second. If you spin the engine faster, it is naturally able to do more work, assuming its ability to do the work (aka torque) remains constant. Horsepower therefore is a function of torque. I don't remember the exact equation, but HP and torque will always be equal (and conversely "cross") on a dyno graph at 5250rpm.
Overclocked it to 25MHz.
Doubled the speed.
Didn't make it run any hotter.
The 286-12MHz is Bill Gates' favorite chip, afterall.
I'm a 2000 man.
I just recently made my own watercooler for next to nothing and have overclocked my duron 750 to 950 and I do notice a considerable difference in performance. Windows (yes windows) boots up much faster, and Operation Flashpoint is much smoother (my ti200 can finally shine a little now). Also, when you do any sort of computational programming you do really notice the speed difference. Besides the fact that it's really fun.
Where to start? As is unfortunately typical, Tom's crew demonstrates a profound lack of clue. I'll limit myself to one point.
None of the tests was allowed to reach anything resembling steady-state. This is crucial, because the characteristic time to reach steady-state is strongly influenced by the heat capacitance of the system, which is to say, by the volume of water and metal being heated, weighted by the respective heat capacities and conductances between each. The steady-state temperature, which after all is what you care about, is determined by the efficiency of the final-stage of heat-exchange: namely, how quickly heat is pulled out of the water and into the air, as for example assisted by the fan.
A high-school physics student can write down and solve the appropriate differential equations well enough. And even a high-school dropout knows that the steady-state temperature is what matters most. We hope the typical customer is smarter.
2. Attach other end of rope to boat
3. Drop in lake
4. Fish