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Power Water Cooling Kits

msolnik writes: "Toms Hardware has but together a head to head comparison of 4 different water cooling kits. Instead of buying each part seperately these kits come with everything needed. I would love to use water cooling but there is just something about having water inside of my case that makes me very uneasy. But for all you hardcore overclockers out there this may help you out a lot."

190 comments

  1. *Water* cooling, feh! by soupforare · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'll stick to good ol' liquid nitrogen

    --
    --- Do you believe in the day?
    1. Re:*Water* cooling, feh! by Wells2k · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's been tried. There are a couple of sites out there about doing this very thing to a motherboard, such as at the Mission Impossible site.

      The problem appears that it is pretty hard to get from a sub zero level of -40C to the much cooler temperatures that liquid nitrogen provides without cracking something on the motherboard or CPU and killing the system completely.

  2. 4 kits? by IIOIOOIOO · · Score: 2, Informative

    That's kind of a stretch on their part. Try 2 kits, each with 2 differently sized heat transfer blocks. To save you some time, they like the one from Innovatech, and despise the other one. Want a big surprise? They like BOTH "kits" from Innovatech and hate BOTH "kits" from the other guys

  3. I've thought about trying a water cooler... by Bonker · · Score: 3, Funny

    But the Water Still's least expensive cooler runs around $169. That model doesn't even have 'hot and cold' options. It'd be cheaper just to keep my bottled water in the refrigerator.

    Seriously, I've often considered water cooling in my Athlon system, but every time I decide to go ahead and order it, the night before I place the order, I have a horrible nightmare about sparks and electrical fire leaping up out of my computer from where the water-line broke.

    --
    The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
    1. Re:I've thought about trying a water cooler... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For that price you could get a brand new Athlon XP 1800.

    2. Re:I've thought about trying a water cooler... by DuckDuckBOOM! · · Score: 1
      I have a horrible nightmare about sparks and electrical fire leaping up out of my computer from where the water-line broke.

      Does anyone know if any OCers have experimented with high dielectric fluids like this? Probably costs arm + leg, but you wouldn't need all that much (unless you're immersing the whole box!), and no kablooey if it leaks.

      --
      Life is like surrealism: if you have to have it explained to you, you can't afford it.
    3. Re:I've thought about trying a water cooler... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've had a WC system for about 8 months now...was a total newbie b4. The thing you gotta have above all else is patience. I set up the WC componants in my BARE case and left em running for a suitable "burn" in period. During which not one leak occured. I did have the prob that the pipes were not very tight but I fixed this by getting a legnth of 9mm pipe and fitting this over the connectors. Then the 3/8" tubing went over the top...nice snug fit...difficult to fit but I feel pretty certain that there are not going to be any leaks. Oh and I don't overclock either...just run my system with out ANY fans...u don't know what it's like till you try it...I wouldn't go back to a system with fans now..:D

  4. Maybe it's just me by Wind_Walker · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Personally, I never really understood the whole "overclocking" thing myself. I tweak my computer system, sure. But the things I tweak are (in the old days) loading locations in high memory of my modules within CONFIG.SYS, or I tweak the settings of Netscape or online games to satisfy my own personal preferences...

    But in terms of voiding warranties, possibly destroying hardware, and overheating delicate computer systems, I never really had the urge to do it. I just can't understand the reasoning behind overclocking a processor just to squeeze a couple of extra megahertz out of it, when it's nearly impossible to tell the difference between MHz these days.

    Any overclockers care to enlighten me regarding the reasoning behind overclocking?

    1. Re:Maybe it's just me by cavemanf16 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I overclock. It's the difference between adjusting the heat settings, mirrors, seat positions, and radio volume on your car, and putting on a fat exhaust, aftermarket boom radio, and an intercooler for more speed and 'wow!' factor. Not only does it make your computer go just a bit faster, but it's for bragging rights too. It's fun. It's the hardware side of script kiddies, maybe to a degree (but not nearly as disruptive to everyone else :-p ).

      Sure, overclocking doesn't need to be done, but some people enjoy it, like me, but I hate fiddling with trying to code or decode programs. Boring! But if that's what floats your boat, great! :)

      Hope that helps.

    2. Re:Maybe it's just me by Yazheirx · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I just can't understand the reasoning behind overclocking a processor just to squeeze a couple of extra megahertz out of it, when it's nearly impossible to tell the difference between MHz these days

      It is the same reasons that some guys will not be happy until they get another five horsepower out of a 350 horsepower engine:

      curiosity - What can I get out of this system

      The thrill of control

      Striving to reach the ultimate efficiency

      Mental exercise - For those of us who are not ultimate coders we can at least show some intellect with our hardware

      Because we can

      --
      More of my thoughts
    3. Re:Maybe it's just me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A "fat exhaust", thumping stereo and intercooler does not increase your car's speed. You have to make significant mechanical changes. But why would a ricer know that?

    4. Re:Maybe it's just me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      True, and intercooler by itself makes little difference to the performance of an automobile engine. However if coupled with a turbocharging device, the gains are of an enormous level. Splendifitude be unto yea.

    5. Re:Maybe it's just me by liquidsin · · Score: 2

      It's the same reasons you tweak settings in CONFIG.SYS or fiddle with the registry or mess with BIOS or play around with what services are loaded at boot-up. Sure, maybe YOU are the only one who notices that you can load your OS three seconds faster or that you have the world's fastest POST, but dammit you did it BECAUSE YOU CAN!

      --
      do not read this line twice.
    6. Re:Maybe it's just me by Caball · · Score: 2, Interesting

      To me, it is more of sound issue then overclocking issue. If I can lower the sound of my PC, I'm in. No 120,000,000 RPM fan whirling away on the processor should help.

    7. Re:Maybe it's just me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      No kidding, Einstein. A few examples to an allegory that doesn't exactly 'fit the mould' of what I was trying to get at.

      -cavemanf16

    8. Re:Maybe it's just me by tswinzig · · Score: 5, Informative

      But in terms of voiding warranties, possibly destroying hardware, and overheating delicate computer systems, I never really had the urge to do it. I just can't understand the reasoning behind overclocking a processor just to squeeze a couple of extra megahertz out of it, when it's nearly impossible to tell the difference between MHz these days.

      I don't know where you got the idea that overclockers only eek out a few MHz? Most people overclock only when they can spend far less money on a chip that can be overclocked to perform the same (or better) than the more expensive chips.

      The celeron 300a was a classic. You could easily overclock it to 450MHz, and it would perform on par with those 450-MHz rated chips, for a fraction of the price. Some people went way beyond 450MHz with them. With water cooling, crazier numbers are possible.

      Keep in mind that most of the chips that are popular for overclocking are actually the SAME exact chips as their overpriced, higher-rated brethren. The difference is that they didn't cut the mustard off the assembly line, so they were set to run at lower/safer MHz levels. The overclockers just risk moving them back up on par with the higher-rated chips.

      --

      "And like that ... he's gone."
    9. Re:Maybe it's just me by tswinzig · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      putting on a fat exhaust, aftermarket boom radio, and an intercooler for more speed and 'wow!' factor

      Don't forget tweaking your wheels until they are turned inwards and bending the axles!

      I also enjoy the spoilers that are so large and fat (and misfitted) that they actually INCREASE the drag on the car.

      It's funny how so few of these souped up cars actually do the one thing that would speed up the vehicle -- add a turbo supercharger.

      --

      "And like that ... he's gone."
    10. Re:Maybe it's just me by cmckay · · Score: 2, Informative

      I've had my Celeron 333 for at least 2.5 years. Because I've overclocked it to 416MHz (that's 25% more clock cycles per second), I've managed to avoid upgrading to a faster CPU. I only use a standard CPU heatsink and fan-- no lapping, no special thermal grease, etc. (Ah, those were the days...)

      Maybe it doesn't make *that* much of a difference, but if I can run my circuit simulations for class 25% faster, that means more time to do things besides run simulations for class!

    11. Re:Maybe it's just me by cavemanf16 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Oh yes, and in addition to my above post, this one is quite true. For a measly $32 I got an AMD Duron 750, another $25 got it overclocked very stably to 995MHz in Win2k and Mandrake 8.1.

    12. Re:Maybe it's just me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      >Personally, I never really understood the whole "overclocking" thing myself.

      Me neither:

      Athlon CPU, 1.4GHz: $100
      Water cooling: $350
      Case mods: $150

      Total: $600

      Let's say this is overclocked to 1.7GHz.
      Buying the 1.7GHz Athlon costs about $200 over here.
      What the hell is the point? Sure it may be cool, but I can think of many other ways to have fun while spending 400 bucks.

    13. Re:Maybe it's just me by feelafel · · Score: 1

      Any overclockers care to enlighten me regarding the reasoning behind overclocking?

      The early rationale for overclocking was simply to allow your chip to work as it was supposed to. Tom's Hardware was one of many sites that insited that the cores of several of the early Pentium chips were actually identical - all cast from the same die. The difference, said Tom, was that the "faster" chips had passed certain tolerance tests. So really, at that point, overclocking was used to "unlock" the full potential of your CPU.

    14. Re:Maybe it's just me by IsaacW · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      Not trying to flame here, just some info... turning the wheels in or out is called toe-in or toe-out, and it can change the performance of the vehicle, especially in braking, acceleration, and turning... spoilers almost never reduce drag, they are designed to add downforce, or aerodynamic force pushing the car into the ground to increase traction at high speed. Lastly, there is no such thing as a turbo supercharger, they are two very different devices , both used to add horsepower and/or torque to an engine. To start enhancing the performance of a car, you should first add a programmable Engine Control Unit (ECU) to alter the torque and horsepower curves for the stock engine. Next, the exhaust system should be replace for less pumping loss, and then a turbo or supercharger.

    15. Re:Maybe it's just me by ryanvm · · Score: 2

      I just can't understand the reasoning behind overclocking a processor just to squeeze a couple of extra megahertz out of it, when it's nearly impossible to tell the difference between MHz these days.

      I've posted this before, and I'll probably be posting it in the future too.

      The system I am currently using is a PIII-600 overclocked to PIII-800. I've been using it for over 2 years, and it is ROCK SOLID stable. I'm using the stock fan and it only runs about 3 degrees hotter than at 600 Mhz.

      At the time the PIII-800 was nearly double the price of the PIII-600. Overclocking saved me several hundred dollars and made my system 25% faster.

      Do you still not see the benefit in overclocking?

    16. Re:Maybe it's just me by Howie · · Score: 1

      There's a difference between increasing engine output, and having a balanced vehicle that can deal with it and produce (say) faster circuit times. Most modding guides seem to look to suspension and brake changes before engine mods to improve your track-day times - brake later, turn harder.

      Not that it's something I can afford to indulge in.

      --
      "don't fall into the fallacy of believing that Perl can solve social problems. Maybe Perl 6 can, but that's a ways off"
    17. Re:Maybe it's just me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately I find many over-clockers create the equivalent of a car that blows itself to smithereens if left running more than half an hour.

      Most people I know who've overclocked their machines have no need for it... even gamers... as their graphics cards have more to do with the speed of their games than the processing power of their CPU. I think if most overclockers ever ran a process that fully utilised their CPU for hours on end they would find themselves with a burnt out computer and the only thing that saves them is that they dont run CPU intensive applications.

      As most programmers will tell you when you desire to improve the speed of a process you first need to understand what the bottlenecks in the system are. For 99% of the applications out there these days the bottle neck is not in the CPU or bus of a recent computer. The sagging demand for Intel and AMD's new processors are a clear indication of this.

      After all that, I (like many other /.er's out there) do run some applications that still require CPU grunt, such as compiling source code, and rendering CG. I walk away and leave my computer with a large non-standard fan rendering on my machine for days on end and on hot days I can tell you I get nervous as occcasionally I've come home to find my machine beeping away alerting me that my non-overclocked CPU has exceeded it's safe operating temperature.

      There's no way I'd overclock my CPU it's just not worth the risk.

    18. Re:Maybe it's just me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bragging rights knowing you can kick the ass out of every PC in your block: Priceless

    19. Re:Maybe it's just me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Did you even read what I posted? Overclocking is done for the 'sport' of it. It's not for stability, or production environment purposes, it's for fun.

      -cavemanf16

    20. Re:Maybe it's just me by cdrudge · · Score: 2, Informative

      Also not trying to flame here, but I think that you and your parent post are talking about two diferent types of toe in/out. You are talking about changing the alignment of the wheel in ways that it was suppose to be changed and withing the manufacturers design (or maybe by stretching it a little). He is talking about when someone pimps out there beat up 83 junker and pushes out the wheels 6 or 8 inches to look "cool". The bearings were not designed to handle the extra force the wheels exert since they are pushed out so much further then normal, destroying them much quicker over time. This force appears to actually bend the axle and displays a noticeable slant to the wheel. My guess is that this does absolutely nothing to increate the performance/braking/acceleration/etc. The only things that I would imagine that it increses is the size of part shops pocketbook and the laughters of bystanders who have a clue.

      Also, I think that you are confusing a wing with a spoiler. A functioning spoiler is designed to limit the amout of turbulance between the air flowing over the car and the air flowing under. As a result, a spoiler WILL add some drag. They try to limit the amout of lift, but really don't add any downward forces. Most spoilers on cars are purely a cosmetic thing and do very little for performance, especially at normal road speeds.

      A wing however, such as on Indy Cars, do act as an "upside down airplain wing" producing the downforce you described. Here is a link that goes into a little bit more of detail.

      Finally, I do not believe that adding a supercharger/turbocharger will increase the amount of torque an engine will produce. Isn't that a function (byproduct?) of the transmission? I don't know for sure. But enough car talk for now.

      -If I don't make any sense or you think that I am wrong, it probably is because I am. :)

    21. Re:Maybe it's just me by Ollierose · · Score: 1

      Actually, a turbo is a form of supercharger, and it's full name is turbine driven supercharger (as opposed to gear or belt driven superchargers).

      Basically, the turbine is driven by exhaust gases, where as a standard one is driven off the crankshafts

    22. Re:Maybe it's just me by Spirilis · · Score: 1

      Only thing I'd say to that car analogy is, usually cars are *already* capable
      of handling the extra power without extra cooling,
      'cept maybe tweaking the ignition timing or using colder spark plugs (that may qualify as
      on-par with changing the cooling system in a PC... since that's a mechanical change)
      but most of the time I don't think that's necessary at all.

      --
      the real at&t mix
    23. Re:Maybe it's just me by alcmena · · Score: 2

      Take your engine past the redline and you're stupid. Take your CPU past the redline and it's fun and cool?

      I just don't get it...

    24. Re:Maybe it's just me by Zenjive · · Score: 1

      I agree with Wind_Walker, if I'm going to pay $200 - $300 for a mobo and CPU I'd like to keep it more than a year or so. I don't care about voiding warranties, especially with CPU's since the vendor usually only gives you 30 days to return it as DOA, I just don't want to damage a piece of equipment I spent money on.

      I understand the 'social' reasons for OC'ing your 'tricked out box', but do you really get a noticeable difference, or do you have to run some benchmark app to prove how much faster it is? Yeah, yeah, you can OC the old Celeron 300a's up to 450mhz... oh whoopie! and you don't have all that unsightly L2 cache to get in the way! Oh my!

      With all the cash spent on cooling apparatii, wouldn't it make more sense to just buy the faster CPU?

      --


      A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with. - Tennessee Williams
    25. Re:Maybe it's just me by CTho9305 · · Score: 1

      not exactly. the point of overclocking is first finding the redline (by getting it to where it crashes), then attempting to raise the redline. with a stock cooler, for example, a cpu rated at 700mhz may be stable at 750 but not 800. then, you add more cooling, and the redline goes up.

    26. Re:Maybe it's just me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sounds like the same people who buy rims, i mean, dubs, that cost more than their car. adding the maxwell house coffeecan to the exhaust pipe sure makes a great noise!

      Add one racing stripe at a time ensures others that they cannot afford the other stripe. Its also fun stick chinese letters on the cars. Chinese is in, ya know. hey-- why not add a cool slogan across the top of your wildshield, like, "Bad Ass Mofo" or maybe even a huge emblem of the car maker so you can't see out the back window. The black tints are dark enough that it allows other drivers to understand why these people cannot stay in one lane.

      I almost forgot, the ultimate power upgrade. Two lights that replace your windshield washer fluids. Now Your Racing! And maybe a few bright lights (not white) to where there could've been factory installed fog lights.

    27. Re:Maybe it's just me by Datafage · · Score: 2

      Yup, we all know how it used to be. However, chips are no longer clocked that low below potential from the factory, and the serious overclockers buy the highest speed available and crank another 200MHz out of it, which provides no useful increase. Do you see why someone would question spending $200 on cooling to turn a 1.5 into a 1.7?

      --

      Nicotine free Amish .sig.

    28. Re:Maybe it's just me by ryanvm · · Score: 2

      However, chips are no longer clocked that low below potential from the factory [...]

      Yeah, I was wondering about that as I wrote my original post. Oh well - like I said, the last time I bought a CPU the Pentium III 800 was top of the line.

    29. Re:Maybe it's just me by Datafage · · Score: 1

      True, at that time you could take a P!!! from a 100MHz bus and turn it up to 133, which actually did save enough money reliably to be worth it, but even that wasn't as impressive as the old Celeries. These days, chips are cheap, and 50$ will get you a TBird 900, which will keep any but the most serious users happy, which is why I say there's no point. Sorry for my snappy tone previously.

      --

      Nicotine free Amish .sig.

  5. What's the problem with Water? by MKalus · · Score: 1

    If you use destilled water it doesn't conduct and you should be fine, even IF it leaks.

    Unless I didn't quite get it correctly back in School....

    Michael

    --
    If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
    1. Re:What's the problem with Water? by DavidJA · · Score: 1

      If you use destilled water it doesn't conduct and you should be fine, even IF it leaks

      You will have to do better then distilled water. I beleive its actually the salts and ions in the water that make it conduct, but because water is a very good solvent, these salts tend to be hard to remove properly, and hence, even distilled water conducts.

    2. Re:What's the problem with Water? by woodja · · Score: 1

      That still doesn't prevent it from doing other damage. Even if the whole machine doesn't go up in flames, you still have quite a mess.

    3. Re:What's the problem with Water? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes.

    4. Re:What's the problem with Water? by Wells2k · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you use destilled water it doesn't conduct and you should be fine, even IF it leaks.


      True, but the problem remains that if that water leaks, it is most likely going to pick up deposits off of the motherboard and become conductive. Think of all of the dust and grime that collects inside of a case as time goes by due to the power supply fans and whichever other fans happen to be in there.

      I do know of one case where someone tried to submerge their entire motherboard, power supply, and daughter cards, but they used mineral oil instead of water. This would be over at Dr. Ffreeze's website.

    5. Re:What's the problem with Water? by nusuth · · Score: 2
      Distilled water do conduct, it just conducts less than tap water, which in turn conducts less than sea water etc. How much water conduct is a direct function of ion count and even pure water (which distilled water isn't) have 2E-7 ions per liter (at STP). The best you can achive with water is demineralized water, which conducts almost as low as "pure" water can be made. I don't know if that would be non-conducting enough to use safely, but it doesn't really matter: it will collect impurities fast and will start to conduct just like tap water (that would happen to distilled water too) unless all contact with anything soluble is prevented (which is hard to do with run-of-the mill pumps.) Once leaked there is no possibility that water will stay pure and continue to conduct very little. I personally wouldn't risk it.

      --

      Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!

    6. Re:What's the problem with Water? by deacon · · Score: 1
      The water picks (dissolves) metals from the cooler parts and becomes conductive over time. The pictures show bare copper parts in contact with the water. Deionized water is a very aggresive solvent.

      The kits shown in the review seem to mix copper and aluminium components. If the coating on the aluminium parts gets scratched on the water side (like from screwing in the tube fittings) a galvanic (battery) reaction will occur and the exposed aluminium will corrode away.

    7. Re:What's the problem with Water? by MadCow42 · · Score: 2

      You can also use a nifty chemical marketed under the name "Florinert" I believe... completely non-conductive. I remember seeing an overclocking test where they submerged the MB in this stuff and started pouring in liquid nitrogen too... very cool!

      I'd feel much more comfortable filling a "water" cooling system with that stuff, just in case.

      MadCow.

      --
      I used to have a sig, but I set it free and it never came back.
    8. Re:What's the problem with Water? by Wells2k · · Score: 1

      You can also use a nifty chemical marketed under the name "Florinert" I believe... completely non-conductive. I remember seeing an overclocking test where they submerged the MB in this stuff and started pouring in liquid nitrogen too... very cool!


      I remember this test. They started out by cooling the system down with CO2 to get the temperatures down, then hit it with the liquid nitrogen. At that point they believe that one or more of the capacitors on the motherboard cracked, and that was the end of the test.

    9. Re:What's the problem with Water? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i see metal parts in the kit so very soon you will not have distilled water :)

    10. Re:What's the problem with Water? by Zenjive · · Score: 1

      This is slightly off-topic, but... I had one of those snow globes on top of my TV, except this one had glitter in it instead of snow...

      Anyway, one of my bastard cats knocked it off the back of the TV one night and it shattered and leaked all the water, glitter and glass down the back of the TV and onto an old power strip on the floor. The wierd thing is, even though the TV was off, the power strip was still on and nothing was damaged as far as I can tell. I figured all that glitter mixed with water would have started a nice little fire or at least blown a few breakers.

      --


      A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff that nature replaces it with. - Tennessee Williams
    11. Re:What's the problem with Water? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even distilled water will have the hydronium ions H+, and OH ions, so even though distilled water is a poor conductor it will conduct enough to hurt...
      and once you introduce that wild conductor, you will get all kinds of capcitive and inductive reactions all over the place

    12. Re:What's the problem with Water? by (H)elix1 · · Score: 2

      Its really spendy stuff. Like $500usd/gal...

  6. Google Category: Watercooling by webword · · Score: 2

    Google Category

    Computers > Hardware > Components > Fans and Cooling Devices > Watercooling

  7. Nice, but... by Wells2k · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I think one of the best water coolers I have ever seen was when these guys built a heat exchanger on the principle of heat loss through water evaporation. Very nice concept, and it approached the idea of cooling water down properly in the first place.

    1. Re:Nice, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes in addition that cooling system comes with a bong

      ;p

    2. Re:Nice, but... by ameoba · · Score: 2

      Unfortunately, you have to worry about the high level of evaporation, and having exposure to the air promotes growth of stuff (algae &C) that can easily clog your cooling block.

      It's definately a high-maintenance type of system.

      --
      my sig's at the bottom of the page.
    3. Re:Nice, but... by rogergregory · · Score: 1

      I once had a 386 that I cooled by having a sponge
      on the cpu and adding water to that directly. Not too surprisingly it worked and caused no problems.

      There is too much worry and sillyness about cooling these days. A quick search shows a bunch of freezers under $500, just plonk the whold damn machine in that and use it for your remote cruncher. No need to worry about condensation, the machine is the warmest thing in sight so all the water freezes out elsewhere. I'll be trying this soon, as I expect to be building a beowolf cluster and this may be the cheapest hack.

      The next step is just to imerse the whold damn thing in LN2 (lowly cooling down to that level)
      the major expected problem is that many plastics get brittle, an be sure to have good venting,
      maybe I'll try LOX it's safer!

    4. Re:Nice, but... by Wells2k · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, you have to worry about the high level of evaporation, and having exposure to the air promotes growth of stuff (algae &C) that can easily clog your cooling block.

      He actually goes into this on the website, and there are ways to handle the problems with biological growth in the system. The loss of water due to evaporation is a side effect that cannot be avoided, but apparently the problem was not that severe so long as the water levels were kept up at the frequency that you would maintain a plant or something. Heck, you could put a plant near the outlet of this thing just to keep it moistened, then all you would have to worry about is watering a plant. :)

  8. Anyone? by dolo666 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Does anyone have a link that shows why AMD systems run hot? I'd like to see some unbiased info about that. I'm split between Intel, AMD and Mac. AMD users seem to really love their systems, almost as much as Mac users. Intel users seem to be quite indifferent (they often zoom in on video cards instead of processors for discussions). I guess I'd just like to get the big picture. Any suggestions?

    1. Re:Anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      AMD systems run hot because they suck!

    2. Re:Anyone? by WD_40 · · Score: 1

      I've always bought AMD processors and I love them. I currently have an Athlon 600 (which still does a great job running anything I throw at it, despite its age), a K6-2 400, and a K6-2 333 running my Linux server.

      I never have been a big fan of benchmarks, I like to compare via practical use. In my experience, my AMD's perform better than an Intel CPU at the same clock speed.

      As far as the heat thing goes, my systems reside in a room that has poor insulation. As a result it gets well over 100 degrees F in the summer... I'd hate to imagine what temp the CPUs reach, but I've never had a failure. I don't have huge cooling systems and I don't even have expensive heatsinks, just your 'run o' tha mill' cooler.

      I've always been impressed by AMD's performance to price ratio. In my opinion it's a much better buy than an Intel CPU.

      --

      "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine." -- RFC 1925

    3. Re:Anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Here is a simple list that even an imbecile could understand:
      Macs are for girls and fags.
      AMD is for cheap or poor people.
      Intel is for stupid people.


      Okay what's left a Tandy or a TI 99/4A?
      What do you use, a Palm? Or both palms? ;P

  9. Ars Technica: Watercolling Forum! by webword · · Score: 2

    Actually, I should have posted above this too...

    Ars Technica Ars OpenForum 2.0a Case and Cooling Fetish

    ...gives you a chance to talk to real people about this topic, rather than reading reviews and articles.

  10. Poor wording? by tswinzig · · Score: 5, Funny

    And nothing will earn more respect and admiration from the hardware fan as a water cooler.

    That's funny, I would have thought the fan would be jealous of the water cooler.

    --

    "And like that ... he's gone."
  11. Anything that makes less noise by Neorej · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't care what kind of cooling my system uses I just wish they will one day come up with something QUIET!

    I mean, listening to all them fans is irritating enough, I don't need an addition of gurgling and refrigerator noises, however appropriate those may be in some games.

    I, for one, would be really happy if they started making AMD athlon XP 2000 processors, clocked down to the equivalent of an athlon 1Ghz. Fast enough for most purposes and maybe that'll allow me to ditch the fan and the accompanying noise.

    --
    -- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
    1. Re:Anything that makes less noise by kawaichan · · Score: 1

      I hate noise too, but there are coolers out there that are pretty quiet.

      Ask yourself this, do you really want water cooled PC, knowing that the pump might stop any second and fry your computer?

      Let's face it, watercooler's realiabity on a PC is nowhere as good as air coolers.

      --

      kawai
    2. Re:Anything that makes less noise by fw3 · · Score: 3, Informative

      the water - cooler is (nominally) letting you use a quieter fan, because you're getting the effective cooling-area of the the larger heat-exchanger, which can be located outside the case

      --
      Linux is Linux, if One need clarify their dist: <Dist>/GNU Linux
      bsds are of course just BSD
    3. Re:Anything that makes less noise by $carab · · Score: 3, Informative

      According to overclockers.com, THG tested these water coolers incorrectly. Apparently, THG tested the Swiftech unit w/o fans, relying on a "passive heat exchange", while on swiftech's website, the Swiftech Barebone Kit is CLEARLY shown with 2 120mm fans. Given that, it is amazing that the Swiftech finished so close to the Innovatek! It seems evident then, that Tom's conclusion is flawed. Swiftech makes great products (really the best high-end HSF maker, better than Alpha, but pricier), and I was dissappointed to see such a poor performance until I read about this testing anomaly at overclockers.com

    4. Re:Anything that makes less noise by Neorej · · Score: 3, Funny

      You may be able to use a quieter fan but have you ever heard a central heating system with a teeny tiny little bit of air in the pipes? That makes a helluva irritating noise! Forget the fan, start thinking more along the lines of a helicopter!

      I imagine the same thing could happen to your computer when you start using pipes, fluids and the sort in there. Next time your computer hangs, you won't be able to just reboot, you'll need to call a plumber :-)

      --
      -- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
    5. Re:Anything that makes less noise by einer · · Score: 4, Funny

      I don't care what kind of cooling my system uses I just wish they will one day come up with something QUIET!

      I don't know if the noise would be a problem. In fact, I imagine it would be almost soothing... Like a perpetually used water bong.. ;)

    6. Re:Anything that makes less noise by Neorej · · Score: 1

      I think there may be cheaper (and easier) ways to get a soothing background noise than using a complicated system of pumps, hoses and water to cool an expensive computer system. ;-)

      --
      -- Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.
    7. Re:Anything that makes less noise by void+warranty() · · Score: 2

      I'm not totally convinced water cooling is less reliable. While I've never had a fan quit on me, several have needed replacing. And I'm pretty sure a failing fan is just as bad as a failing pump (except maybe that air cooling uses bigger heatsinks which would increase the lifetime for a couple of minutes).

      If I understand correctly, the pumps used in watercooling are the same ones used in aquariums. So if anybody has any experience regarding reliability of these pumps, I'd be happy to hear about it.

      And yes, I've been thinking about using water cooling. Not for overclocking, but for noise reduction.

    8. Re:Anything that makes less noise by synchrostart · · Score: 2, Informative

      Many of the watercooling systems I have seen come with dual pumps that run all the time. The system can run on one pump, but not efficiently. So it will shut down the machine in the case of a pump failure.

      The people who design these things are no slouches when it comes to design. They have the same concerns you do. Why do you think they designed these systems?

      as to the aquarium pump, when I had a fish tank as a kid, the pump I had ran continuously for something like 8 years. 24x7x365. the only reason it stopped was that I gave away my fish and sold the tank and all it's parts, because i went off to college and couldn't have them there.

    9. Re:Anything that makes less noise by jd · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Easy ways to quieten computers down:
      • Sound-proofing. Surround the entire case with cork, or some other sound-absorbant material. Then, place an "outer" case around that. That'll cut down on the noise enormously, and (relatively) cheaply.
      • Sound-eliminating. This will NOT work with fans, or other gas-based cooling systems. From that, you can probably guess this is something really nasty. Oh, look! You're right! This method requires that you heat the air up inside the case (without cooking the components), pumping the air out as you go. What you'll get is a partial vaccuum. The better the vaccuum, the less the noise. To retain the vaccuum, you need to reinforce the case (flimsy aluminium ain't going to hold up to an atmosphere of pressure), and seal any & all gaps. Cables can be fun, with this. You practically need to build the case around the wiring, to get this to work.
      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    10. Re:Anything that makes less noise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I remember reading about a guys homemade water cooler; He had graphs of temperature over time for a regular heatsink & fan and his water cooler when running AND with the fan & water pump turned off. The temperature took much longer to rise with the water cooler and leveled out at a lower temperature.

    11. Re:Anything that makes less noise by joekool · · Score: 1

      And if you do this, you can watch your system quickly fry itself, unless you have some method of removing heat from every component that produces heat, which will of course be producing some noise on it's own, just outside the case now. Remember that the point of most of that noise(besides hard drive and CD) is cooling. making the case hard to cool does not help, it likely hinders. No, I think the way to solve the noise problem is to move the source away. This works in all situations, as far as noise control goes. Use a vaccuum, regular air, or mineral oil, just make sure the pump is extremly quiet, or far away. maybe a case for a central cooling in the basement, or some such. Just replace that old central vaccuum with it!

      --

      Slackware: old school feel, new school gear.
  12. something never covered in these articles by Lumpy · · Score: 2

    What about SMP systems?

    Do I have to buy 2 seperate systems for my processors or can I just pipe in a second waterblock? also has anyone done any examples of how this provides a significant improvement over a giant block of aluminum and a couple of good fans?

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    1. Re:something never covered in these articles by fw3 · · Score: 2, Informative

      the cpu heat exchange block is probably the expensive part anyhow. ... splitting the piping would not likely get you even flow across the 2 cpus

      --
      Linux is Linux, if One need clarify their dist: <Dist>/GNU Linux
      bsds are of course just BSD
    2. Re:something never covered in these articles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Should be able to pipe two in series. At the flow rates they use, there can't be much incremental rise in water temp. Maybe you end up with the second processor a half degree warmer, but that ought not be important.

    3. Re:something never covered in these articles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can simply buy another waterblock, and get a peice of tubing to the required length. Its simply then a matter of attaching the second block to the second CPU with a proper clip, hook it up, and your flying. The two CPU's will never have a different temp, since the water flowing bettween them is the same water, at the same temp. Some people have also gone as far as building/getting smaller waterblocks for vid card GPU's aswell as mobo northbridges. If you can get a nice quiet fan on the radiator, it makes for a totaly system cooling solution, thats ultra quiet, and most importantly safe. Peoples main concern is that its going to leak. If you do it right, it wont. Most people get anti puncuture tubing anyways, its a bit harder to bend, but twice as thick. Besides, unless you have a little crazed maniac with a knife living inside your computer, you dont have much to worry about :)

    4. Re:something never covered in these articles by Mashiki · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yeah easy enough to do. From the main pump line use a Y splitter to the two water blocks, then from the line out on the two water blocks use a nother Y spiltter to merge the two flows, I would also suggest useing a larger return hose. You DO NOT want to go from Block A to Block B, since the water will not cool, and a good chance exists that you'll cook your second processor.

      --
      Simple solutions to simple problems.
      --

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
  13. No problem! by ishmalius · · Score: 1

    A lot of things with solid state power amplifiers
    have had water or ammonia convection coolers in them
    for a very long time... I can't remember ever
    hearing of one leaking.

    Not to worry.

    1. Re:No problem! by morcheeba · · Score: 2, Informative

      Amonia heat pipe coolers are closed-loop systems that require no pump and are very reliable. We used them on satellites (to even out the "in the sun" side and the "in the darkness of space" side). These are more common in laptops (my inspiron 7000 uses one, and so does the titanium powerbook). If you want to play with one, the (now discontinued and cheap) dreamcast systems have two of them (pictures here), but the heatsink on the end of them probably isn't big enough for a standard desktop cpu.

  14. That's a good point by Wind_Walker · · Score: 2
    I think you're right; I am a software person (that's what I'm supposed to be doing now, heh) and I love to tinker with software... coding, "tricking out" the memory, etc, trying to get the most out of the hardware by changing the software. Overclockers try to get the most out of software by changing the hardware.

    <VOICE STYLE="Yoda">Two sides of the same coin, we are</VOICE>

    The car analogy is another good one; I personally don't care about tweaking my car, but I have friends here at work who talk about racing their cars, exhaust systems, distributor caps, etc. I just sit back and nod, not having the first clue what they're talking about. I guess that's just a type of personality, and I don't have it. Thanks, cavemanf16.

    1. Re:That's a good point by Neon+Spiral+Injector · · Score: 1

      That is what I can't figure out about myself. I'm a computer guy, have been since I was 6 years old.

      Only now am I getting into cars. But with in a year of getting my dream car, I've got a freer flowing exhaust, cone filter in place of the restrictive air box, and now I'm looking at a full turbo upgrade.

      But with a big turbo comes more heat. Both in the intake charge and under hood in general. So I've got to look at cooling solutions for my car.

      I wonder if you can use Red Line's Water Wetter with these water cooling kits?

    2. Re:That's a good point by Neon+Spiral+Injector · · Score: 1

      Here I am following up to myself, after I have thought about it.

      First I wanted to say, that I don't over clock my machines, if that wasn't obvious from my first post.

      What I do though is always add lots of performance parts to my computers. I fore go the built in IDE controller and throw in a U160 SCSI. SCA-2 hot swap drive bays, max out the ram, fill all the slots. Basicly allow the computer to see its full potential.

      I see that as more like what I end up doing to my car.

  15. Why? by The+Evil+Twin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In the days of the Celeron 300a this made sense⦠but now? I mean how much difference, REALLY, do you notice between 100 and 120 fps? Or how much better is your life going to get if your kernel compile is 1.2 seconds faster?

    Donâ(TM)t get me wrong⦠faster is always good⦠but the costs⦠some people spend more money on overclocking gear for there machine then it would cost to just buy the faster processor in the first place. There is also the noise that all this stuff generates. I would much rather spend the extra money to make my computer more quieter.

    Just my 2 cents CDN (about 0.3 cents USD)

    --
    --- tracer.ca
    1. Re:Why? by Lumpy · · Score: 2

      one of the best thing I see are the hard drive cooling plates. SCSI drives are still dang hot and cooling them is important in keeping that $250.00 18 gig hard drive working for more than 24 months.
      I just wonder about the effects of cascading these items.. can I add say 3 hard drive cooling plates on one system? or do you have to have 3 huge radiators hanging off the system?

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:Why? by deacon · · Score: 1
      You would have to do the math to figure it out.

      Add up the heat input into the system (in watts) from the 3 drives. Then find the specs on the radiator, which should be a graph showing watts dumped at different CFMs of air thru the radiator, as well as different flow rates of water, at different temperatures. The temperature will balance when the watts into the system equals the watts out of the system, so you solve for this equilibrium.

      To make a first order estimate: if you put in heat from 3 drives instead of one, you need 3 times the air flow thru the radiator to keep the same water temp., assuming the flow of water is still adequate to move the heat around without too much temperature rise.

      In practice, you may be able to live with the water temp rise created without increasing the airflow thru the radiator.

  16. Water coolong - with salt water by freeio · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Many years ago I worked in a lab where shipboard sonar equipment was being built. Their cooling system for the high power units consisted of aluminum plates with embedded copper tubing carrying filtered sea water right through the rack of electronics. It carried away the heat quite well, but the whole thought of using sea water was antithetical to everything I would normally consider.

    On the other hand, large high power vacuum tubes have been water cooled for many decades. The most impressive were the vapor-phase cooling units in which the cooling was done by boiling the water off of the external anode of the tube. The steam was then condensed back into water in an outdoor cooling tower.

    --
    Soli Deo Gloria
  17. The art of senfu... by flumps · · Score: 1

    Looks like these guys in taiwan have been doing water cooling for amd processors for quite a while.

    Dont know how good it is, but this article has a huge peice (fnar)on how it all works if you're interested (its a bit old tho', May 2000 sometime according to google)...

    --
    "So there he is, risen from the dead. Like that fella, E. T." - Father Ted Crilly
    1. Re:The art of senfu... by flumps · · Score: 1

      heh, followed a link on that article and found out what it did to this poor bastard's chip.

      Water + Electricity = buggered cpu + pissed off clocker


      --
      "So there he is, risen from the dead. Like that fella, E. T." - Father Ted Crilly
  18. Concerns of water in your case by LordDartan · · Score: 1

    Actually, if you use distilled water, you don't have much to worry about. Distilled water is a very poor conductor. If you were to use tap water(which has salt, among other minerals in it) then you'd be in some danger. It's the minerals that make water a conductor(albeit, a pretty poor conductor at that).

    1. Re:Concerns of water in your case by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How clean is the inside of your computer? Besides, I think you'll find that distilled water will conduct just fine. Deionized water, however, does not. That is, until it gets dirty.

  19. de-ionised water, not just distilled. by Manic+Miner · · Score: 0

    What you need is de-ionised(sp?) water, not just distilled. Distilled water should ensure that you don't have extra salts and crap, but you can still have water ions (H+ and OH-) which will conduct electricity.

    If you fitted a de-ionising plant to your water filter / pump system then in theory you could be pretty safe with water leaks.. except for rusting of course.. but some people might that that was a little bit over the top :)

    --
    If you ever drop your keys into a river of molten lava, let'em go, because, man, they're gone.
    1. Re:de-ionised water, not just distilled. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Water dissassociates spontenously to H+ and OH- ions even if you could get it to a state where there are none initially. De-ionised water is just all foreign ions which are not removable by other means removed.

  20. Distilled Water vs Dust? by Alien54 · · Score: 2
    You measure the conductivity of distilled water to determine the purity of the water. when you get to megohms per centimeter, you are not doing bad.

    The problem of course is the quantity of dust in the average computer. Any leaks are going to automatically create impure water as soon as it hits a dusty chip. This may not be good.

    --
    "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
  21. Watercooling systems for non-overclockers ! by tempmpi · · Score: 1

    Watercooling could be a real nice way to have a fast but silent system. All watercooling kits I have seen yet, still have fans and aren't really silent. I would really like to spend $200 on a watercooling kit or case if I could get a system without fans and without the danger of damageing my hardware with leaked water. A water or oil cooled case that includes a fluid cooled powersupply would be really nice. I think there would be lots of firms that would spend $400 more on a silent system for there highly payed it-professionals because it makes them more productive.

    --
    Jan
  22. There's a better solution by MtViewGuy · · Score: 2

    I think people are forgetting that there are easier (and reasonably cheap) ways to speed up your computer.

    First, get as much RAM as you can afford. Get at least 128 MB RAM; however, with the price of SDRAM DIMM's being so dirt-cheap nowadays you might as well get 256 MB or even 512 MB. With that much RAM, you can open way more programs concurrently and also because you use the hard drive way less for virtual memory, programs in general can run as much as 60% or more faster.

    Second, get the fastest hard drive you can afford. If you system supports ATA-33/66/100/133 IDE interface connections, make sure the drive runs at 7200 rpm and make sure the drive has a generous buffer memory size (2 MB minimum).

    I don't find overclocking such a great idea, especially now with the price of CPU's dropping like stone in water even for the faster CPU's.

    1. Re:There's a better solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      you use the hard drive way less for virtual memory

      Is someone still actually creating swap partitions? I find it hard to fill even half of my computer's 512 MB memory in real use.

      Second, get the fastest hard drive you can afford.

      Uh, no. You get SCSI drives and a good controller. IDE absolutely chokes during heavy I/O like when you're compiling stuff.

    2. Re:There's a better solution by kaimiike1970 · · Score: 1

      Get at least 128MB of RAM? I think this post is at least a year out of date... It just cost me around two hundred dollars for a GB of RAM. Less than this would be a waste of time in my opinion

      --


      Do a google search before posting.
  23. Testing equipment.... by yawhcihw · · Score: 1

    Did anyone else notice, or was anyone else bothered by the fact that Tom's super-deluxe testing station has a Innovatek sticker on it?

    Innovatek is, of course, the brand of water cooler Tom found to be superior in his testing.

    Groovy.

    1. Re:Testing equipment.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you implying that Innovatek bought them off by giving them a k-rad case sticker? Talk about falling standards...

    2. Re:Testing equipment.... by JSmooth · · Score: 1

      Or are you suggesting that some one who spends all day with multiple PCs run an inferior solution? Tell ya what if I had unlimited resources I would contact Tom and ask him what he runs for his own system. Think about it. Course, then again if I had unlimited resources mayhap I would have better things to do then sit in front of a puter all day.

  24. Article on watercooling by fdisk3hs · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    And my timely, intelligent submissions never make it to the front page? Grumble groan...
    "Yeah, I was thinking of putting SCSI and a water cooler on my Packard Bell Multimedia 5000, dude..."
    grumble groan...

  25. Tangent by volpe · · Score: 1, Offtopic


    What if Afghan women actually have the best bodies in the world? Think about it.


    Ok, I've thought about it. Every time I've seen you post it. And I still don't get it. What's your point?

    1. Re:Tangent by szomb · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      WTF do you mean, ``point''? It's a sig. On slashdot. Get real, man.

      --
      Just because a few of us can read write and do a little math, doesn't mean we deserve to conquer the universe
  26. not a thorough investigation by jman+sr · · Score: 2

    I don't feel that the conclusions reached by Tom's Hardware are quite fair. Yes, the Innovatek coolers cooled better than the Swiftech models, but not by all that much. It may very well be that the Innovatek has better quality hardware as well. However, I found one key element missing from their tests. They posted no accoustic measurments, even though they posted a picture of their "sound level meter". If the Swiftech kit can cool better than the premier aircooled device, but do so without a fan, that sounds like a good deal to me. I would also like to see the prices of the various systems.

  27. Innovatek Web Site by devnullkac · · Score: 2

    Innovatek is a popular name, but this seems to be the web site for the manufacturer referenced in the article. The English version isn't ready yet, so be German or be Babelfish.

    --
    What do you mean they cut the power? How can they cut the power, man? They're animals!
  28. Who is overclocking anymore? by soybean · · Score: 1

    With the price of CPUs being what they are, why would anyone overclock? If you motherboard can handle it, just spend the $67 and buy a faster CPU.

    Once before, you could buy a $200 celeron and make it run as fast as a $800 pIII. There was really something to be had there. What are you going to do today, make a $60 CPU run as fast as an $80 CPU? What's the point? Why don't you just get the $80 CPU? I'm sure your mom will give you the extra $20.

    1. Re:Who is overclocking anymore? by drsquare · · Score: 0

      Or why don't you buy the $80 CPU, and then overclock it to the speed of a $100 CPU?

      "Then buy a $100 CPU" I hear you cry. So then buy a $100 CPU and overclock it ot a $120 CPU...etc.

    2. Re:Who is overclocking anymore? by Delphis · · Score: 1

      But if (using your example) it costs you $20 or more to do it, you've lost the financial incentive - is the point that was trying to be made.

      --
      Delphis
    3. Re:Who is overclocking anymore? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ACK!! $67!! Are you nuts!?!
      I got a k7s5a for $57 and a Duron 700 for $25, and you tell me $67 isn't that much? I tell you my cheap set up is very nice, but for the fun of it I tried overclocking, because I didn't like having my 2100 DDR run at 100Mhz ;-)
      The chip didn't want to run at 933, but after giving it a slightly higher vcore it was very happy and didn't gain that much heat either. And you ask why I risked the whole $25 I could have lost if my processor fried? Because I still have $42 left from the $67 I saved ;-)
      Also, all those that ask what the point is? Running a computer 33% faster for the same price is very nice, and increasing the bus is even better, this gained me a LOT of power, unlike OCing my Geforce which didn't do much at all.

  29. Don't they have cars?? by havardi · · Score: 1

    Anyone who's owned a car KNOWS that it's only a matter of time before their cooling system springs a leak. Granted the conditions under the hood are quite a bit more demanding than inside a computer; but the fact remains the same-- IT'S ONLY A MATTER OF TIME.

    1. Re:Don't they have cars?? by yzquxnet · · Score: 1

      one of the people I work with has a water cooled athlon system. He was worried about the same thing. Pesky Leak. He looked at the inside of the case and looked to see what would get dripped on if it sprung a leak. There was alot. But, if you tipped the tower on its side the only thing water would hit would be the plastic door. So that's what he did. He runs his tower on the side *just in case.*

      The only problem that he had so far was scummy water. Something was growing inside the system. Fixed that pronto.

    2. Re:Don't they have cars?? by JesseL · · Score: 2

      With "IT'S ONLY A MATTER OF TIME" as a qualifier anything is possible (It's only a matter of time before you fond yourself spontaneously transported to the surface of the moon). Also remember that automotive cooling systems are pressurized, run at 150+ degrees F, have to deal with constant vibration, and still go years without leaking. I'd say that your computer is almost certain to be landfill before it leaks with a really well engineered water cooling system.

      --
      "Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
  30. too pricy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i made mine for less than 100$ and i run my 1000mhz at ~49C.

  31. Low-profile by JSmooth · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    OK so this may be a little off topic but here's one for ya. Being a little too overwhelmed with work I didn't want to take the "build your own computer with water cooler solution" and picked up a Compaq EVO500 Small form factor PC dirt cheap on EBAY. Nice and quiet but I am now stuck with a "low profile" AGP card. The included one is dirt slow (NVIDIA Vanta). I found a couple of others GEFORCE2 MX200, etc. But most are crap. Anyone know of a decent "Low Profile" Card?

  32. Big Problem! by HardCase · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I can't remember ever hearing of one leaking.


    When I was a Sonar Technician in the US Navy, we used large display consoles with dual 21" display units in them. They ran on on 120v/400Hz power and the driving units got very hot. They were cooled with distilled water that ran through a fairly complex chilling operation (after all, it's a government operation, right?).


    One of the cooling loops inside a console sprung a leak and sprayed water around. Now bear in mind that the voltages inside these display units are like those in a TV set, so they're substantially greater than a computer's, but the resulting fireworks INSIDE the sealed cabinet just about sent me crawling up the nearest bulkhead. Noise, sparks and a tremendous mess that ultimately cost about $50,000 to repair. And it wasn't uncommon...about once a year a cooling loop would let go on some piece of equipment.


    Incidentally, the only reason that the loops used distilled water was so that there would be little or no mineral buildup inside the cooling loops. In some cases, the stainless tubing in use was quite small, perhaps a quarter inch in diameter. Believe me, once that water hit the equipment, even a bit of accumulated dust caused it to conduct quite well, thank you!


    -h-

  33. why oh why? by mrCide · · Score: 1

    What's wrong with Tom? I believe he neglected to use fans on the swiftech kit, and it still came close to performing aswell as the other kit. What's that tell you? Tom never does proper reviews on watercooling. If you want real information head to www.overclockers.com or hardOCP forums.

  34. Koolance by SmackDown · · Score: 2, Informative

    For $200, just get a Koolance PC2-C case. Cools perfectly, huge capacity, pre-assembled solution. I got one a month ago, and it is wonderful. Plus, it comes in a very nice-looking case, with a space for the tank, radiator, fans, etc very nicely planned out. Plus, they offer hard drive and video chipset coolers as add-ons that you can simply put in-line.

    1. Re:Koolance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For $200, just get a Koolance case that leaked twice on me, causing me to replace my GeForce3 card the first time. I also had the pump completely stop working.
      I'm now back to using air-power.

    2. Re:Koolance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What revision of the case?

      1st or 2nd?

  35. Cheap water cooling by Porag_Spliffing · · Score: 1

    I am looking at installing a vary cheap water cooling system, the trick is to use a vary large heat sink, in my case this will be the Mediterranian. I am installing a PC in my boat for Navigation and Entertainment. The almost limitless supply of cool water is too good to resist (Plus no fan noise if I can work out how to get +/- 5v and -12v from my boats 12v DC system). Maybee I will have the first salt water cooled PC :-)

    --
    Maybe you live in interesting times
  36. no such thing as a turbo supercharger by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  37. overclocking is obsolete by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    cpus nowadays go much faster than any software currently available will need.

    i know this sounds like bill gates' infamous 640k remark, but why on earth do you need to go faster than 1.6ghz?!?

    thats a lot of expense & trouble to go through just to get a few more seti packets done every week.

  38. What am I missing here? by fobbman · · Score: 2

    USD200 for a cooling "solution" that does worse than a good old fashioned heat sink and fan? Check out this link over at Lost Circuits. I could /.'ed any of the many roundups out there but randomly chose this one. The best performing heatsink kept their test chip (a 1900+ overclocked to what should be around a 2000+) at 46C at full load, and that cooler runs for about USD72. Heck, for a top of the line (for the moment) Athlon XP 1900+ you're putting out about $250 and going a step down saves you USD60.

    If we were still in the days when major steps up in CPU speed were measured in the hundreds of dollars then these coolers would be a good idea, but we're not anymore. Buy a decent heatsink and a couple quiet case fans with filters and you're far better off in the long run.

    1. Re:What am I missing here? by (H)elix1 · · Score: 2

      The thing you are missing is QUIET. I have one of those 1.4G AMD space heaters, and I looked at review sites and picked up a high performace copper heat sink with a 8K fan. It does keep things cool, but at the cost of 47dB. Way too loud for me. I'm playing with some ducted 2x92mm aircooling right now, but may hit the machine shop again if I can't keep it cool & quiet enough.

      My older 566/800 is watercooled - modded the CPU, PS, HDD, and Video card - and you could not tell if it was running (without looking at the NIC card). Not something you take to a LAN party - but really nice to work in the same room with for hours at a shot. As a side bonus, the temps stay cool enough that it makes the box super stable.

      If you buy a kit, expect to spend 200+. It can be less if you can roll your own. In practice it ever seems to work out that way, however...

    2. Re:What am I missing here? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have _never_ read a cooling review where a water cooling kit performed worse than a heatsink/fan.

      Try to find a review where _both_ are compared by the _same people_ at the _same place_ at the _same time_

  39. Shady Graphs by hardave · · Score: 1

    Okay, is it just me or does anyone else get suspicious of graphs that only show ONE axis?? I'm assumeing that the x-axis is supposed to be wattage produced by their mock cpu's, but what's the scale?

    Hell I might even be wrong, for all I know they're measuring body temperature over time as the tester realizes he's fried another cpu due to faulty cooling.

  40. I would prefer peltier elements. by miffo.swe · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That way i dont have to worry about leakage from othar than my memory all the time. Residues inside the pipes may be able to fry your cpu over time aswell. Besides, with cpus running at 2.2 Mhz, isnt the biggest speedblock right now the pipe between the cpu and the periferals? No big gain to have a cpu that runs circles around the mem/hd/internet connection is it?

    --
    HTTP/1.1 400
    1. Re:I would prefer peltier elements. by jmichaelg · · Score: 2

      ...and then what do you do with the heat the peltier adds to the mix? All a pelt buys you is a cold plate to chill your cpu with but it costs btu's to do that.

      Eventually, you're going to have to dump the heat to the room - water does it better than fans + heatsinks. Quieter as well.

  41. Why not PCB's by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    PCB conduct heat, but not electricity!!

  42. Water cooling by jd · · Score: 5, Informative
    Water cooling is interesting, solely because water has an extremely high specific heat, relative to many other liquids and solids. The specific heat is important, as it is a measure of how much heat is required to raise the temperature.


    eg: Many metals have a specific heat in the low hundreds. Water is in the mid-thousands. So, a one degree celcius temperature change in the water is in excess of a 10 degree change in the metal.


    (This is why water-cooling is popular. Not because water is magic, but because finding a liquid with a lower freezing point and a comparable specific heat is a royal pain.)


    Typically, what someone would do is add something to the water, to lower the freezing point. This almost invariably lowers the specific heat, too, but it's a decent compromise, usually. The water is then piped over the relevent components, dragging the heat with it. The water is then cooled by a second cooling system, often freon-based refrigeration. This takes the heat from the water, and (hopefully) gets rid of it fast enough.


    The science of heat transfer is not impossibly complex, but it's not trivial, either. The heat and the specific heat are what are important. The temperature is merely a function of these.


    (This is why liquid nitrogen sounds good, but isn't really used much. The specific heat is too low, so the temperature rises comparitively quickly. Useless for cooling, unless you have a LOT of liquid nitrogen and are piping it at a decent pace. That makes the pump more expensive, for a start, and would make it essential to use large reservoirs, which you'd need to keep refilling.)


    Talking of cooling, there's a pelzier device over on one site linked to from extremecooling.org, which has a delta T of 140 degrees celcius. It's cheap, too. Dragging that kind of temperature off a chip could make cooling -seriously- fun. Again, you'd only need water cooling, to transport the heat, but you'd end up with a chip temperature about that of liquid nitrogen, without the expense, hastle or complications.


    Oh, one other thing. Condensation is a killer, when supercooling. Usually, overclockers seem to just waterproof the relevent chip, but heat doesn't stay put. It dissipates. This means that heat will flow from hotter points to colder points. Which means that any water vapor in the air is not guaranteed to stay in the air.


    Three possible solutions to this: First, strap on some kind of air conditioner for drying the air, so that there is no moisture in the case to condense. Might work, provided the case was otherwise air-tight. The second option is to not have any air in the case, in the first place. Again, make it air-tight, then set up a partial vaccuum inside. If there's no air, then there's nothing to hold the water. The third option has already been given a Slashdot article, and that's to flood the case with a non-conducting medium that does not mix with water, such as mineral oil. This will keep the water away from anything vital, and might actually help with the cooling effort, across the entire motherboard.


    When dissipating the heat, however you build the case, don't forget to have a reflective surface between your dissipation system and the computer. Otherwise, half the heat goes right back into the case, and you're just baking the other chips.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    1. Re:Water cooling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Setting up a vacuum in your computer case is not a good idea.

    2. Re:Water cooling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      thats why he said partial vacuum

    3. Re:Water cooling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Couldn't you also just seal off the socket with a nonconductive jelly to eliminate air pockets in the socket and then cover the cpu, peltier, and waterblock with closed cell foam? That should keep any air from getting in there and causing condensation. This solution seems to be a lot easier than the three proposed.

    4. Re:Water cooling by jd · · Score: 2
      The jelly will eventually get cool enough for consensation on the outside to occur. From that point, it's just a matter of time before water starts dripping onto the motherboard.


      ANY solution, including those I proposed, simply move the problem around. The objective I went for was to move the problem outside the case, at which point there could be entire rivers of water running off the box, for all I'd care. The computer would not be affected.

      --
      It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  43. I propose... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I propose a new topic for cooling. I enjoy hardware news as much as the next geek, but last thing I need is to see a Cooling-Story-of-the-Week. Please, 90% of us don't care in the very least, and we're the most hardcore of the hardcore. Make it a topic (icon possibilities are endless! think about it!) for this so we can filter it.

  44. Innovatek fan looks like it has a wiring error! by morcheeba · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'm not too sure I'd use the fan speed monitor that comes with the Innovatek... it looks like it could do some damage to a motherboard!

    This image on page 3 of the article shows a 4-headed cable. Two connectors form a short disk drive power supply extension cord, with the two outer pins (+5v and +12v) tapped off to supply power to the fans. This trick allows the fan to run off of 12-5 = 7 volts (uh, they messed up the math, calling this 8 volts). These red and black wires go to what looks like a male connector to go to the fan. Then, a yellow wire comes from the fan and seems to go to a motherboard fan connector. That's the problem.

    First, a little background. As I understand it, the speed feedback is essentially a switch that connects the yellow wire to ground two times per revolution. The motherboard must supply a little bit of power (in the form of a pull-up resistor) to actually get a signal out. This works well because, since the motherboard is supplying the power, it can make sure it doesn't supply too much voltage. If the chipset is 5 volts (impossibly rare nowdays), it'll supply 5 volts. If it's 3.3, it'll supply 3.3. This way, a fan can be used with any voltage chipset.

    Ok, the problem is that the ground pin of the fan is connected to the 5 volt power supply. This is the trick used to get 7 volts. The fan will spin and connect the speed feedback wire to the 5 volt "ground". If you've got a chipset that uses 3.3 volts (most likely), you'll be feeding 5 volts into your 3.3 chip - a big no no that could burn out the speed input or the chip (which probably handles lots of other functions you wouldn't want to lose). The voltage on this pin will oscillate between 5 volts and 3.3 volts - not the 0 to 3.3 it expects. If you have a 5 volt chipset, then this pin will oscillate between 5v (shorted to "ground") and, uh, 5 volts (pulled up by the chipset)... so, while not doing any damage in that case, wouldn't work.

  45. Intervenous Java? by Jon_E · · Score: 2, Funny

    now I just need to hook one end up to a water supply and the other to a coffee filter with an IV tube for that extra shot of high adrelanine computing :)

  46. Ah but you're mistaken... by BLKMGK · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Bzzzt, wrongo. Distributed.net's RC5 cracking program uses 100% of the CPU and I've had ALL of my overclocked computers working on that for YEARS now. Stable? Yup, rock solid. Granted those systems aren't pushed as far to the edge as my primary workstation but they're all overclocked and two are running dual overclocked CPUs as well. Heat load in the room is pretty bad unfortunatly as is noise.

    As a result I tried using water as a coolant and using Peltiers in order to truly cool down my CPU in the primary workstation. I sourced a fountain pump, trans cooler, large bucket, and built a plastic cap from PVC placed over a standard heatsink. Below this I placed a surplus Peltier and away I went! Ran great too! I placed the trans cooler with a fan on it outside my room's window and noiced one BIG difference - NO NOISE! Talk about a relief, it was great.

    Eventually I did run into a problem and it did kill some hardware. My system locked up for some unknown reason. The result was that I no longer had a heat load on the cooling device - a large block of ICE was the result. Was pretty weird to see that when I cam home too! As the outer edges of the ice melted it would drip onto my video card - doh! I ended up losing my video card and having to use a hairdryer on my CPU socket to remove the condensation that had melted. There are ways to prevent most of this but at the time they weren't well known and never thought that a lockup would have this result - I learned the hard way :-)

    Thus ended my particular attempt at water cooling. I DO think it's viable though and the newer systems coming out are MUCH more professional than what I had cobbled together several years ago. I'm tempted to try again but I'm starting to grow weary of the Distributed.net contest. My registered E-mail (one registered in the first few months) is no longer valid, I no longer compete with friends for position as they've moved on, and I seldom check my ranking anymore (shrug). I've also not played a graphics intensive game lately that would require such speed. I used to be able to nearly double the speed of a CPU by dropping it's temp into the basement, now with my 1.4Gig Athlon I'm not so sure that I'll get very much out of it. Okay, it is overclocked some but not much - it's a sickness I tell you!

    Oh, and I DID see noticable framerate increases by overclocking my CPUs, especially on floating point dependant games of old. These days yes mostly th evideo card is the bottleneck but for programs like Distributed.net it's sure not a problem. CPU temp rises several degrees running such a program if you've got a marginal heatsink.

    Do any rendering or compiling? Password cracking? Consider overclocking, done RIGHT with adequate cooling it IS worth it. You spend DAYS rendering something right? What if you could cut 1/3rd off of that? Worth it? I'd do it - at least until I can buy a 1.5gig X 2 AMD system cheaply :-) Cracked passwords in a noticably shorter time and dual CPUs makes it even better. Until I see a good distributed password cracker that actually works for the WIN32 platform faster CPU speeds is what I need. Heh, and yes this is for legit purposes so leave me alone about it.

    P.S. Yes, I hop-up up cars too. If you're afraid of monkeying with one of those then I'm not surprised you won't fiddle with a computer's guts either. BTW, what's a warranty? I've not had one on a computer in years as I build all of my own and save lot's of cash (shrug).

    --
    Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
  47. Next step: Car radiators... by jskirwin · · Score: 1

    Mineral oil, distilled water, etc... Why not go all the way and hook up a car radiator to the CPU? Cool it with anti-freeze (ethylene glycol), and cool that with air run through a radiator. It's extremely efficient for cars, so why not chips?

  48. misters... by simpl3x · · Score: 1

    it keeps the produce cool and fresh. why not my processor? and, a good song while were at it... "i'm singin' in the rain"... can i have a glass of milk, please?

  49. Car & Computers = Apples & Oranges by Mashiki · · Score: 1

    By your post I can tell your not a mechanic, I was. I can tell you that while yes a cooling system on a car will eventually leak but you have to remeber that this is compleatly diffrent from a water cooling solution.

    In a car you have a closed loop system under 13-18PSI @ 212-240F at highest non-engine damageing tempatures. Most common failures in modern cars is the platic tanks on the radiators cracking. This doesn't count on vibration, contstant heating & cooling, & lack of proper maintance.

    Hell the rad hoses on my saturn have 120,000 miles on them. Why? Because I know I have to change the fluid, see anti-freeze eats rubber and alunimum when it gets old. Hence the reason you change it. My old lynx was 15 years old and had 290,000 miles before the engine went but had factory hoses on it.

    Anyway I guess the point I'm getting at is there is a huge diffrance between a car cooling system and a computer cooling system. While some people will disagree, I can tell you now your not takeing your computer down the road @ 65mph, with an engine speed of 3100rpm, with potholes all over the place. With your car you are, and that's alot of wear and tear.

    --
    Om, nomnomnom...
  50. Overclocking works, that's why... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've been running a Compaq P75 at 90MHz for 5 years now. It is still being used as a file server and is absolutely reliable, running at least twice as fast as the original configuration. TWICE as fast??? Yes, because the 90MHz option doubles the bus speed from 33MHz to 66MHz. So, the advantage of overclocking/tweaking your stock Compaq or IBM PC can be huge.

  51. I watercooled my work computer, runs great.. by xtal · · Score: 3, Interesting

    For anyone who's interested in watercooling a work/production machine, I had great results and gained a LOT of stabilty. Just be sure to install a GFCI on the outlet! The importance of this isn't mentioned in a lot of the commercial kits and could be a life-saving precaution.

    The URL to the install, where I got it, how I managed to make it all fit inside a standard mid-tower case along with 4 hard drives and 2 cdroms, etc, can be found at: www.nyx.net/~smanley/watercool

    Definately a great learning experience!

    --
    ..don't panic
  52. (OT) Re:Maybe it's just me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Okay. This is offtopic, but at least its in an old story. And to hell with karma.

    No, adding a turbo / supercharger (from hereout referred to as "Forced Induction" or F.I.) *will* increase the amount of torque your engine produces. Torque output has nothing to do with gearing (tho effective use of horsepower does). Torque is a measurement of ft/lbs, or how much weight can be lifted in a given amount of time (usually a second for easy math). I say lifted because the joker who came up with such pedantic units of measurement was interested in lifting masses of stuff out of a mineshaft with his horse. Therefore from here out assume that the engine in question uses a block and tackle or something.

    So a car with 100ft/lbs of torque at 4000rpm (maybe its a Geo, and its at its peak), the engine can lift 1lb of weight 100ft in a given amount of time. *OR* it can move 100lbs of weight one single foot. That's where the gearing comes in. Overseas they measure torque in sane, metric, Newtons, which makes a whole lot more sense to me.

    Now horsepower, on the otherhand, is simply a measurement of how much work can be done in a second. If you spin the engine faster, it is naturally able to do more work, assuming its ability to do the work (aka torque) remains constant. Horsepower therefore is a function of torque. I don't remember the exact equation, but HP and torque will always be equal (and conversely "cross") on a dyno graph at 5250rpm.

  53. My 268 12MHz by eples · · Score: 1

    Overclocked it to 25MHz.
    Doubled the speed.
    Didn't make it run any hotter.
    The 286-12MHz is Bill Gates' favorite chip, afterall.

    --
    I'm a 2000 man.
  54. I notice a difference by saxynate · · Score: 1

    I just recently made my own watercooler for next to nothing and have overclocked my duron 750 to 950 and I do notice a considerable difference in performance. Windows (yes windows) boots up much faster, and Operation Flashpoint is much smoother (my ti200 can finally shine a little now). Also, when you do any sort of computational programming you do really notice the speed difference. Besides the fact that it's really fun.

  55. Physics Sorely Lacking by Allocutor · · Score: 1

    Where to start? As is unfortunately typical, Tom's crew demonstrates a profound lack of clue. I'll limit myself to one point.

    None of the tests was allowed to reach anything resembling steady-state. This is crucial, because the characteristic time to reach steady-state is strongly influenced by the heat capacitance of the system, which is to say, by the volume of water and metal being heated, weighted by the respective heat capacities and conductances between each. The steady-state temperature, which after all is what you care about, is determined by the efficiency of the final-stage of heat-exchange: namely, how quickly heat is pulled out of the water and into the air, as for example assisted by the fan.

    A high-school physics student can write down and solve the appropriate differential equations well enough. And even a high-school dropout knows that the steady-state temperature is what matters most. We hope the typical customer is smarter.

  56. Instructions for Water Cooling for Apple Computers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    1. Attach one end of rope to handle

    2. Attach other end of rope to boat

    3. Drop in lake

    4. Fish