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XBox Defects Draw Ire
jeffy124 writes: "An article at CNN indicates that the XBox is having problems with defects. But the defects aren't the problem, the issue is lousy customer support from Microsoft's repair contractors, which is really what's more annoying to those who got defective units. Customer support has been giving out conflicting advice and some customers are having their support records lost."
Well my initial response was yeah microsoft sucks, good for them for making crappy hardware. Then I actually read the article. And here's what I discovered.
"Analysts said the number of flawed consoles is probably too small to spell serious production troubles"
Well less then 1% of the 1.5 million systems failed. And out of those that did fail only 200 people received bad customer service.
My question is this, why didn't these people take there X-boxes back to the store immediately. There were plenty of X-boxes to go around, at least where I live. There was really no reason they couldn't have exchanged it.
If you look at the numbers Nintendo had a similar failure rate with the game cube. Was this news? No and neither is this story.
I hate microsoft as much or more then most people on slashdot, and I want to see them fail, but this is not failure. This is just the slashdot crowd chomping at the bit and jumping on any little thing.
Either you're being excessivly sarcastic, or you're living under a rock.
1. Grand Turismo 3
2. Metal Gear Solid 2
3. Final Fantasy X
4. Frequency (thanks to some mood enhancement)
5. Ico
You might argue that FFX and Ico don't count. You can get RPGs anywhere. Fine, whatever. You can't get those two anywhere else right now (and Sony would like you not to get FFX anywhere else ever). I don't know a single racing simulator as awesome as GT3. MGS2 is in a class of its own. In all honesty its GT3 and MGS2 that made me want a PS2.
Is there really anyplace the provides good customer service anymore?
Wait on the phone for 1 hour to be transfered and then disconnected. A myriad of reasons why they can't accept a return on a particular item.
Also, it seems as more and more things are basically computers with a different front end, problems are taking longer to creep up. By the time you may experience a problem, you are beyond the return date and you get to go through support hell.
I had an APEX DVD 600a for a month. At the end of the month, I got Stargate and got the infamous branching/looping problem. Up till that DVD it had been working fine. The there was basically something that the software couldn't handle properly. I was just able to return it, but if it had been a week later, I would have been screwed.
Oh well...that's my bitch...off to bed.
Actually MS loses money on each Box they sell, somewhere in the range of 100-150 USD. They're counting on the royalties from software sales to make a profit.
you're right GT3 kicks ass. But I'm not gonna buy a system for one game. GameCube has like so many, and it goes with my GBA too, which has a huge pile of awesome games.
The PS2 controller is good. Except I don't like the L3 and R3 buttons, I think that's a poor implementation because they can be accidentally pressed while using the analog stick. Also the buttons are analog so the more you press the faster you go.
The XBox controller IS bulky and overdone. You can't reach all the buttons. However, the GameCube is just Nintendo's style. It's not bulky, just looks that way. The Z button is poorly placed some day, but you never need it the same time you need the R button, so it doesn't matter. It's design makes it look very uncomfortable as well, just like the 64 controller. But when you hold it, it's fine. The best part is that the L and R buttons are analog, and you know how hard you are pressing them because they go up and down more than a millimeter. And you know when you've reached max because they click. On the PS2 controller you always push harder, just in case it might get you that extra bit of speed, because there is no indication of when you've reached the maximum that the analog buttons allow.
PS2 controller = good, Gamecube = slightly better, XBox = ow, my hands hurt.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
The thing is, I have never even had to consider, nor have I ever heard of anyone needed customer support for a Nintendo. Yet, suddenly this MS thing needs *support*. Hey, it must be that MS inovation again!
specifically, gamestop.com (software etc, babbages, planetx, funcoland, and super software
We have had two xboxes returned as defective. BOTH, were from physical damage resulting from the "bounce test" that occurs during shipping.
There were obvious gashes in the cardboard of the box. One one xbox, the 2nd controller port did not function, and the other simply didn't power up.
We've had similar situations with the PS2. There have been no Gamecubes returned and I can't even count how many defective dreamcasts we have.
xxx straight edge xxx
HP, IBM, and depending on who you get, DirecTV are all good.
HP shipped a $400 scanner to replace my $200 scanner, overnight delivery, and paid for shipping both ways to me when my motherboard's USB controller was flaky. Not even their fault.
IBM offered to fly a technician to my house when OS/2 was refusing to use my soundcard. (it was a cheap SB clone at the time). Their suggestions got it working, so I was never able to test the offer.
DirecTV has at least reduced their wait time to just a few seconds, and now has around 5,000 customer service people in 6 centers. Quite a few of them are fairly clueless about DirecTC though, but at least they are willing to find an answer to a question they do not know.
Just wanted to point out some GOOD experiences, when there are so many bad ones to be heard about.
Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. --E. W. Dijkstra
Comment removed based on user account deletion
First I think CNN is making an issue out of nothing.
:)
;)
AOL/TimeWarner owns CNN.
AOL doesn't play nice with MS.
I wonder why they'd post such blatant FUD?
Yeah. Sega and Sony would never do something dumb like put a modem in a game machine..
:)
Oh wait:
Dreamcast had built in 56k modem
Your recollection of consoles seems limited.
fyi, I had to return my dreamcast because it kept hanging in the same place on the same game. The replacement did not. On the other hand, my XBox has not had any troubles.
Additionaly, the overwhelming majority of the first batch of playstation 1s are now dead, due to CD-Rom failure. Most died after a relatively short amount of time. Additionally, there have been 40 revisions of PS1, 32 of them anti-piracy fixes.
Oh, and I suppose you never got the blinking red light on your 8 bit NES that meant you had to blow on the cartridge, the NES, the cartridge, and the NES again over and over until the thing actually started the game without any weird sprite corruption (if at all )..
The point is, every new console has had failed units. It's a consumer electronics device, and its being treated as such. There is nothing to suggest that XBox is having a higher failure rate than any other console launch..despite the fact that its running a hard disk and that it was put together by a company with no previous experience in building a consumer electronics devices of this type.
Ever since the first rumblings of XBox hit slashdot, people have been badmouthing it. First it was vapourware. Next, no one was going to support it. Then, it was "gamecube will be more powerful".
Yet XBox exists, has more launch titles than Gamecube, and has stunningly better graphics and audio than any other platform gaming platform.
By any measure, XBox has thus far been an outstanding success. Sony is competing based on exclusives, inertia, and branding.. Nintendo is competing with a targeted audience and value pricing. If the microsoft rule of 3 holds true for XBox (MS "gets it right" at version 3), then there may not be a nintendo or a sony console by the time XBox 3 arrives.
I suspect that there is some critical mass of installed units that XBox needs before there will be any real migration away from Sony.. but if that mass is reached, the additional capabilities and ease-of-development may shift sony out of the "Default" spot.
And lets be honest..for all you Gamecube fanboys...Gamecube is such an "also ran".
Hardcore gamers will buy it because they buy every system, and because nintendo will publish the n+1 version of the few relevant franchises they have. Just like for N64 there was a Mario game and 2 Zelda games, so shall there be Mario and Zelda games for Gamecube (well, they've been promised). And there will be the usual assortment of Pokemon and other stuff. Big deal. PS1 broke the gaming industry wide open inspite of N64 and its franchise power, and its stranglehold on the child market. Nintendo may increase its share of the "mario game" and "early childhood" markets, but both of those are shrinking percentages of the overall gaming market.
In an odd twist of fate, assuming Xbox adoption doesn't really happen..._Microsoft_ may be the one whos product fails (to sony) even though it had better technology. That would certainly be a delicious irony on the usual slashdot tale
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
My only complaint is the ridiculous sensitivity of the DVD drive. If you have some dust on the disc or on the tray the system can spew "disc not found" errors after hours of playing. If you have a scratch on a disc you can practically forget it.
It's not enough to seriously detract my enjoyment of the system (it's "crashed" due to "not finding the disc" 2-3 times... it puts you out to the Dashboard and explains the reason), but it's still a bit more than my PS2 has blanked out. Overall I'm actually pretty impressed with the construction and design, with a few "extra" points given since this is MS's first console (I did the same for the original Playstation -- my system overheated regularly). But it's nothing a CD lens cleaner won't fix, and as long as the games are playable -- and fun -- I don't complain.
I actually had a defective XBox unit. I took it right back to the store (Target) where I got it and asked for a refund. The immediate reaction was the standard line from the person at the counter about how exchanges are all they offer on certain products once any fingerprints have graced the case, etc, etc.
I asked to speak with their supervisor just to get a better explanation and such. After about five minutes of explaining I realize it's not the stores fault and would simply like them to handle the problem rather than me contacting Microsoft, I left with cash in hand. The store felt it actually cost Microsoft less in the long run to have them deal with it than if I started using their support channels and such.
And I'd buy it again from the same store.
-Barkeep, a draft of your most hazardous brew, for the world is slowly stepping into focus, and I don't like what I see.
"fanboy" - oh, how I love that term...
- 12 -14&res=l
Nintendo knows how to make fun games. They make games that I'll return to in five years and *continue* to enjoy.
I can't deny Sony their throne today, and I even admit to owning a PSX - but I consider that initial release to be a turning point in the industry... a turning which I don't wish to follow.
I've never been a fan of load-times. When I sit down to a game, I expect it all to be seamless - fmv's run quickly to and from gameplay; levels show immediately when called for... all the benefits of a cartridge.
Forced at gun-point, I'm playing through Xenogears on the PSX... and while I'm enjoying aspects of the game/story - I can't get over the ridiculously long loadtimes for an fmv! After 3 seconds (5 minutes in "gametime"), the mood has been lost, and the cleanly drawn anime characters may as well be sock puppets for all I care...
"That's just the way it works... that's the limitation of a CD..." - ya, understandable for a computer game; but inexcusable for a console, in my humble and stringent opinion.
That's a major reason N64 remained a cartridge, I think - they, too, couldn't tolerate the load times. And that's why Gamecube uses ultra-small proprietary format DVDs, I believe - there are virtually no loadtimes whatsoever! And where there are load times, they are cleverly hidden under cinematic prelude (which should have been done in the first place on CD consoles *and* PCs).
I've encountered no noticeable loadtimes in Luigi's Mansion, Pikmin, or Star Wars - there's a *single* load time in the whole of Smash Bros. Melee, which is a remarkably large game holding great and dynamic playing levels...
And most important is game play... I return to NES and have the time of my life. I play my SNES as much as I play any PC game. I really enjoy N64. Hell - I even go back to my Game&Watch.
and I continue to play it, because it *continues to be good*.
That's faith in a company who consistently holds high standards of quality. "Fanboy"... whatever.
PS2 - technology finally allows what the console promised years ago.
GameCube - Nintendo has always been about efficiency... Mario64 was only 8MB! Less "pure strength and capacity", but far better use of what they have... only 1.5 Gigabits... but each byte brilliantly utilized... SBMelee has nearly 300 intricately detailed 3D figures, 26 playable characters in 29 *dynamic* levels... plus "adventure play" and other possibilities... 1.5 Gigabits...
Xbox - offers nothing new. It's last year's PC. The octupus is just grabbing for more territory.
I take it "fanboy" means "person of high console standards"...
der_m
http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2001
The xbox has ONE game in the top ten. ONE! Even Harry Potter for the PS1 is doing better than Halo! Halo was suposed to make kids drop eveything and jump on the xbox. The kids did not care as much as ms hoped.
;)
It is badly made and franky, it shows. I think it was outsourced in Mexico and to be honest, Mexico is not the center the of world as far as high quality standards go.
It's not cheap to buy. Nintendio outsold the xbox by 2 to 1. And the PS2 outsold them both by 3 to 1. It's never the power of a machine, it's the software. Xbox had 2 good launch games and they were not all that amazing. More eye candy than fun.
You can not expect money to buy you a marketshare. The Money M$ has dumped into XBOX, they will need to sell millions and millions before they see black. They don't mind but the Xbox is a mistake. Not a BIG mistake but more of a misunderstanding of the market share. Xbox likes to deal with big companys and the xbox looks like a 45 year old in a sports car. No clue about the kids and what they want. They even kept the code name!?
The PS2 has won xmass. Nintendo has it's market and well, the xbox will be the new dreamcast. Supported till the end by zellots of dead tech. Like fans of betamax or the dreamcast. Dreaming of what the machine COULD have done.
This post is for the history books, In 2 years, Xbox will be dropped. I will put my house on it. M$ loves to drop shit projects. Anyone remeber BOB? or MSN? Those did not cost peanuts.
And to quote bill "MS is not a hardware company" How right you were bill.....
Jebus
P.S If you think I am biased, I have an xbox. It's on ebay right now. My PS2 has moved back to the empty spot
Here's my timeline:
October 26th, 2000: Was all alone at CompUSA for 3 hours before person #2 showed up at about 5AM - People were camped out at the Best Buy next door and the Circuit City across the street, but never thought of little ol' CompUSA. Even one of the radio DJ's came by to keep me company. Got the first of the 6 units at that store.
That day, take it home, stick my Madden 2001 game in, and nothing happened. Stuck in a DVD, and nothing happened. Nothing. Nada. No spinning. No "Detecting".
Called store, and they said they probably wouldn't get any more units until March of 2001, but would gladly refund my money.
Called Sony, and they tried to get me to run diagnostics on the CD, which wouldn't work since it has to be able to know the CD was in the drive to do the diagnostic. So, they said they'd send me an airbill and I could send it to their Repair Depot in California.
October 30th, 2000: Called Sony back, and said that they'll send the airbill tomorrow.
November 2nd, 2000: Called Sony back, and they said they'd send the airbill tomorrow. I said screw it and sent it on my own dime.
November 20th, 2000: After several calls to the repair depot, I get the tracking number of my repaired unit. They sent it UPS Ground during Thanksgiving. Thanks, Sony.
November 28th, 2000: Received my replacement PS2, plugged it in. Put Madden 2001 in, listened to the CD spin...But that was all. Put in a DVD, listened to the CD spin...But that was all. It wasn't detecting the CD at all.
Called Sony, and the guy said "Well we'll send you an airbill and you can send it back to the department..." Wanted to speak to his manager. "All of our managers are busy, sir, they'll call you back later tonight." Right. Sure.
Amazingly, I got a phone call 45 minutes later. He reiterated the "send it back to our repair depot". I then asked for the address where my attorney could contact them. He then told me that he would personally send me an airbill (via FedEx this time) where I could send him my PS2 and he'd just send me a new one.
November 30th, 2000: Amazingly, I receive an airbill in a timely fashion. I send out my PS2 directly to the guy.
December 8th, 2000: Receive new PS2, and have been playing it to this day. I also have two of those blue boxes I keep just to mess with people, as I only sent the unit, but not the packaging materials.
Remember, I sat in line for about 8 hours on October 26th to get a unit that I didn't get to actually play until December 8th. Let's just say, I'll never do that again. (Actually, I did, but I only was in line 30 minutes for an XBox.)
Moral of the story: This happens with ANY console. PS2 had just as bad of a launch as XBox did to this respect. I have gotten lucky with my XBox, but the Software Etc. I go to said that they had 10 returns on launch day from the hard drive crashing.
It could be the case management software they are using is new or the people are untrained in its use. Hell, support started what, three months ago tops, who knows? Launches are never flawless.
It happens. Any decent company will make big strides to straighten themselves out with the press though, now that CNN has made such a big deal out of it. Frankly though, I think that posting this story carries an air of FUD to it.
Slashdot tries to demonize M$ as much as possible, and most of the time with good reason. But bad customer support? Please. I work in the customer support field, and nothing can be worse than having to tell a person that some AOL lackey is lying to them about them having a modem virus.
...I can't say much against the X Box just yet. I do own a Playstation 2 and I wouldn't trade it in for a X Box, but if Microsoft dropped it in my hands I wouldn't be upset over getting free stuff.
What angers me is that even on launch, Dreamcast had some problems. Overheating is one thing that came to mind. Even NES, SNES, Gameboy, Gamecube, PSX, PS2, etc have had problems of such calibre. What I see here is direct biasism towards Microsoft and that is generally unfair (even though MS isn't quite the fair company).
Hell, there are defects in EVERYTHING. For instant, my video card does not like to sync properly unless I edit a few lines in my XF86 configuration file, but I don't go around saying XFree86 or my video card is crap because of that. It is just one of those flaws you have to deal with.
Now, I am not saying that flaws are something we should ignore. Microsoft (and any company or developer) should acknowledge it's problems and attempt to fix them for future releases. Flaws are mistakes, if we acknowledge them and fix them, we have learned from them; if we ignore them, then we have not learned anything at all.
As much as I dislike Microsoft, I am going against this article.
The thing the people have to keep in mind is that the console market is directed primarily at those who are (partially or mostly) tech-illiterate, and aren't even old enough to drive.
Sure, if I got a faulty system, I'd complain, and fiddle with it for a while, I'd know to take it back to the store (if they'd take it... no way of getting my snazzy new gift replaced until after the store gets a new shipment.. who knows how long that could be), or to be forceful with customer service when they started jerking me around... but think of the target market.
Imagine yourself back in grade 6, you get a brand new console for Christmas, plug it in, just start getting excited, and it blue screens. What do you do? Fiddle with it, then complain to mom or dad. Chances are they won't be able to help, so they have to spend 20 minutes talking to customer support and another 2 weeks waiting. Meanwhile, you are determined that this Christmas sucked, and that mom and dad don't care about your gift. Will I tell my friends how cool my X-Box is? Will they want to buy one? Will my parents ever talk about how happy their kid was, or how good the service (that should be included in the price) is?
Well?
The problem with this disaster is not so much that computer problems happened, or that service sucked. It's that the people producing and servicing the product aren't used to the new customer base they are getting. 10 year olds... impatient 10 year olds.
When you are producing products for children, they should be durable, reliable, and long lasting. A successful console is one that will stand up to all of the difficulties of having kids play with it, and one that will be around long enough to develop a loyal customer base.
Do you remember Nintendo's, SNESs... even playstations? Those things are indestructible. And the service really is great.
Anyhow, my point is this: This is not a product that can be dealt with hap-hazardly. These consumers are vicious, and uncaring. If it doesn't work well... every time... its crap. Period. In this kind of market you have to be able to back things 100% and this manufacturer isn't ready to do it.
My prediction? With the exception of a few software manufacturers, the X-Box will be gone by next Christmas.
The main reason X-Box support ranks so low right now is that it is outsourced to Harte-Hanks in Austin. Believe me, I've worked there. Despite the best intentions of the companies that hire them, somewhere down the overly deep trail of managers, the intentions get twisted into "screw the customer."
The employees are undertrained high school students, college students, and poor saps like me who just couldn't find anything better at the time. Since management is never very forthcoming with information, and eventually, a phone tech gets tired of having to dig for information that should be readily available. So we give up, we lose any joy in our jobs, and the customer loses any hope of decent support. Welcome to the outsourced call center.
In fact, having worked the Sega account there, I can sqarely place a large chunk of the blame for death of the Dreamcast on Harte-Hanks. As much as I dislike Microsoft's general business practices, the XBox is still a very nice system and I'd hate to see HH kill it, too.
a buddy of mine is the manager of The Game Stop (aka Babbages). he told us when we purchased ours (1st release day) that MS wanted all returns to go thourgh their contracted companies. His store (the most active store in Houston) was providing customers with this same info.
:-)
not sure what would happen if an angry customer came in and demanded a new unit within 30 days, but i do know he was told to refuse giving out his stock as replacements.
his MS rep told him there were two reasons for this:
1) giving out a new unit in exchange would lower the Xbox's launch sell total. MS was adamant that they would sell all 1.5 million units pre Dec 31st.
2) MS wanted to be able to tightly manage returns - which it has greater control over when owners ship their defected units to centralized locations.
sounds like the contracted company that MS chose sucked. guess i was fortunate...mines been playing 3-5 hours a day for the whole time!
/* Half alive and half dead too, work is for suckers and the sucker is you. - "Half-life" by Local H*/
It may suck for all you Linux lovers to have to admit this, but Micro$oft put togther a nice machine in the XBOX.
Actually, the two are totally unrelated. I am very pro-Linux on the desktop, because in my opinion it is a superior OS to Windows, and because MS has a monopoly their (I don't like monopolies). However, MS doesn't have a monopoly in the console world, far from it. So in that sense it really is the outsider in that very different market. So there really is no reason why a Linux "lover" couldn't or shouldn't own an Xbox.
Anyway, I'm getting an Xbox + Halo next week and playing it on the internet through my Linux LAN, proof that the two can coexist... Also, I may try one day to put Linux on my Xbox (when it will be reasonably safe to do so... it's still quite an expensive toy to mess around with).
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The problem rate is not the issue here!
The problem is the poor quality of after-market service provided by the companies handling the outsourced service.
This problem goes far beyond game consoles. I blame Microsoft especially, because they have produced software products for which they have provided uniformly bad customer support and have still sold millions of units becsuse of their monopoly power.
Manufacturers of other consumer sectors must look with envy at Microsoft, poor quality products and poor quality after-market service and still billions of dollars in sales.
The result is that every consumer goods manufacturer has lowered the quality, and hence cost, of customer service down a couple of notches. If one company can get away with such lousy service, why not all?
Hiring harte-hanks is the corporate equivalent of saying "We don't give a F***"
During my time there, my MANAGER told me that if a company really cared they wouldn't have hired the firm.
They're somebody you hire when you want to say you have a call center, but don't care if anything is actually accomplished by it.
One of the accounts I worked for was the warranty number of a defective tape measure that was being sold by Sears. Our job was to essentially tell them that unless the rivets had come out of the little metal tab that was attached to the tape measure itself, it wasn't covered by the warranty.
The case fell apart during the first day of use? Too Bad.
The spring that recoils the tape broke when you opened the package? Too Bad.
The tape broke when you uncoiled it for the first time? Too Bad.
And don't get me started on how they distribute "Information." Fuzzy photocopies thumbtacked to the cubicle walls.
The training session consisted of a video on how to handle brokerage calls. Nothing to do with our jobs, but it was "phone etiquette" training.
They also placed a lot of outgoing telemarketing calls. While I was there I made sure to put myself on all of their "Do Not Call" and "Do Not Mail" lists.
We were also told not to put someone on the "Do Not Call" list until they asked to be removed for the second time in the conversation.
I made the mistake of getting my manager when a caller wanted to "speak to the manger." I got chewed out for 20 minutes after the call. Apparently, you're supposed to hand the call to whoever is in the next cubicle and they become your "manager" for the duration of the call. This is to save the real managers time. I was once "Fired" by the girl next to me for the way I'd handled the call. After the caller hung up she and I had a good laugh at my "unemployed" status.
I'm now VERY glad I got a PS2 today. Now that I know harte-hanks is handling the calls, I know Microsoft doesn't care about providing service to ANYONE who buys the product. "Ship it and forget it."
www.matthewmiller.net
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA