Slashdot Mirror
When Spammers Try To Sue You
An Anonymous Coward writes: "I was looking for information about what recourse there is against spammers when I came across this site. It appears that Bernard Shifman sent email to several people trying to solcit employment via spam, and when they replied to him, asking him to stop, and reporting the spam to his ISP he threatend them with a lawsuit. It's a very entertaining read."
Wonder what his reacaction to being appreciated by the /. community is?
/J
Haha, this is hilarious. Every slashdotter that reads this should send our old pal Bernard a nice e-mail. See how he likes SPAM when he's on the recieving end.
I'm still waiting for a subpoena from back in December 99 from some guy threatening to sue some people on alt.cult-movies.rocky-horror for "slander" (guy claimed to be a software patent lawyer and didn't even know the difference between "slander" and "libel"... it was classic) because we made him lose money on e-bay, as we pointed out that his so called "Super Rare" (which, since then, has become blaspheme on the Rocky Horror newsgroup... but mostly because me and a Frank-N-Furter from Vegas spammed the board one night with a plethora of jokes about "Suck my super-rare schlong" and the like...) Rocky Horror Dolls he was selling on e-bay for $80 were available at your local Spencer's gifts for about $16....
This is just another case of someone threatening with lawsuits when they're really just full of chicken$#!+. Come on. Who here hasn't been threatened with legal action by some moron online?
I still say the coolest part of that whole flame war (which, btw, lasted a good month) was that he kept giving us phone numbers for the Pittsburg department of investigations (being that I'm Canadian, it would've been quite impressive that someone whose jurisdiction I'm not even in the same country as would be investigating me) saying that it was his proof that he was going to see us in court. And then he called us evil viscious [sic] morons.
"Come to think of it, there already are a million monkeys at a million typewriters, and usenet is _NOTHING_ like Shakespeare." - Blair Houghton.
Karma: Non-Heinous
We should perhaps look more into spammer-baiting! Anyone in Chicago able to get a personal interview with Bernie?
Now he's Slashdot Famous! He'll probably advertise that he's a Slashdot Expert!
Fellowship 9/11
Knowing him... he prolly will. He came after me for simply commenting on the mail in passing convesation. This dude is so full of it! Seeing as it made it on slashdot... among other sites will surely piss him off even more.
Well . . . . *wipes corners of eyes* - out of sheer morbid curiosity I visited the Shitman(*oops*) link. I can honestly say from down here (in Australia) I've never read such a load of half-assed, kindergarten-grade as what I did from this person. BTW - if business is booming to such an extent that he's going to charge megabucks to other people for infringing on his time, why doesn't he go and get his own web address instead of using a virtual "hole" to host his (*gasp shock horror*) amazingly talented web site??
I have his resume in my mail archives also.
From bshifman@ameritech.net Tue Dec 18 05:47:40 2001
Its to a personal email address that I never use at all for the past few years.
The above is not worth reading.
I've had the same thing happen on ebay before.
I found some guy trying to sell a CD with a bunch of GPL'd programs. Clearly visible in the screenshots where The Gimp, Staroffice, and Abiword. He claimed his company, something like
Blah industries, created the programs themselves.
I wrote him an email and let him know that if he didn't change the ad, he would be in violation of the GPL.
HE THREATENED TO SUE ME FOR HARRASMENT!!
He actually had his lawyer email me (yes, it was his lawyer, the email address was from a business and I went to the website and looked).
I wrote the lawyer back, told him what the man was doing, and never got a reply back.
I really wish I would have saved those emails, but I have switched services and computers since.
I'd never heard of the crime(?) "barraty" before--threatening to sue in order to get a reaction, then not following through. Wouldn't something like this be applicable to the Felton case?
2. In my experience, people who use the term 'anti-spam zealots' are either spambags themselves, of members of the
mainsleaze spam lobby, (i.e. Ken Magill of the Direct Marketing Associations, or various random clueless marketdroids who
occasionally write for mainstream rags).
I don't think I deserved that.
[Insert the whole "i'm not a spammer or anything else you just called me" rant here].
Intercarve Networks, LLC
Your definition is less specific than mine and explicitely allows email abuse to continue. Just consider Multi Level Marketing / Pyramid schemes ("make money fast"), where everyone does this "once" only, for an example where your definition doesn't help at all.
It's not wether I am interested or might be interested. It's wether it's unsolicited, bulk and email. UBE. Spam. It's just as simple as that.
Think about it.
Let me ask you this, if I repeatedly send you a mail trying to sell you something, and I've forged the headers so that you cannot contact me, and my unsubscribe link does not work, am I spamming you? What if I'm only sending to you? It's not bulk and by your definition not spam.
Then you'd be harassing me, which is also abuse of email and a violation of the AUP at practically every provider on the planet.
Well then, good luck with your view on spam. Just don't try to use it as an excuse once you send your first spam, since no provider will agree with you.
------------------
You may like my a cappella music
Horsehockey! They do not!
Direct Marketing to people based on their intrests is far more economical than mass emailing... Most people take no intrest in junk email that they receive.
If it was nearly as effective as you say it is, then there wouldn't be laws, nor people up in arms about it.
Keep in mind, there is a difference between direct marketing and spamming. I, personally, have no problems getting the continuous specials from SouthWest, or the weekly hardware sales pitch from Sears.
Where on earth do you get the concept that it's mass emailing is an effective way to market a product? Do you have any numbers to back this up?
I wouldn't be surprised if half of them aern't selling anything at all, but trying to harvest emails from unsuspecting users trying to "remove" themselves from a list.
When you have a publically accessible medium of communication you are implicitly agreeing that anyone may attempt to contact you at least once.
I disagree. How many business companies are there in the world ? If all of them send you an email for advertising, will you take the time to unsuscribe a few million times ? And if they are really nasty, they can even make the unsubscribe process a bit complicated or long.
So the basic question to ask is not who can send you an email but how did they get your email ?. It's a matter of privacy. If you give your email to one company, they should be prevented by law to give or sell your private records except if you authorize it.
Furthermore, you should have the right to see and edit your records for any company that have anything about you. I don't know for the US but, in Belgium, that's the way it works and I am happy with it.
Men are born ignorant, not stupid; they are made stupid by education. Bertrand Russel
If the governement taxed email, say a penny a piece, legitimate users would harly notice, but spammers would be tanked.
Forget the law, I think we can eliminate most SPAM very simply with as small change to current technology I've outlined before:
"I can't figure out who to open a discussion with about this, but I have this simple idea that should at least eliminate the anonymous/spoofed spam, which is all I get.
You simply modify the mail servers to query the sending server whether a received mail actually came from that server. The query is a key based on the contents of the message and a key included with the message, which is itself based on the same contents and a private key of the sending server. If the sending server has been upgraded with this feature, it can validate, or not, the message. If it's not validated, the message is bounced. For backwards compatibility, if the sending server hasn't been upgraded, the message always goes through. [Here's the beauty of the idea:] But as more servers are upgraded, fewer and fewer servers will be able to be used as scapegoats for spoofed spam, and pressure will mount to upgrade these servers as well.
Eventually, the only spam you will get will be from a valid return address, which can be handled more effectively in more conventional ways. In fact, adding manual bouncing at this stage might be helpful as well, since now it really will bounce back to the sender.
I realize I've glossed over some details here, and someone much more experienced in mail servers will have to massage this approach to make it practical, but I think the germ of a very simple but effective idea is here."
Xesdeeni
I'm pretty sure that was ment as an insult to Bernard by the authur of spambag.net. They both speak russian and it would make no sence for Bernard to make up an obviously false law firm.
Also... Nowhere in voice mail is there mention of a law firm anyway.
I have the right to send anyone I want mail, to attempt to contact them at least once
No, actually you don't, at least not in bulk. Compuserve and AOL both settled that issue in the mid-90s in federal court - mail servers are property, and the property owner has the right to decide who may enter. If you enter without authority, you are trespassing. If they post a "sign" saying "no unsolicited bulk e-mail", and you violate it, you are trespassing.
I was involved in the first AOL spam lawsuits. Believe me.
Has anybody thought that maybe he's not really a moron?
Maybe he's a comic genius under the guise of a master troll? Martini
The thing that bothers me about this is that I don't see anyone saying how many e-mails Mr. Shifman sent out. The original message posted on this site has one name in the "To:" line, and no mention of a "CC:" line. That suggests that it was sent to exactly one person. My question is, did Mr. Schwartzman know that Mr Shifman was sending out multiple e-mails when he made his complaint to Mr. Shifman's ISP. If so, how did he know? (I know that he found out later on when other people got involved, but at the time that he registered his complaint, how did he know?) From the page itself, it looks like Mr. Schwartzman got a single email (one sent to an inappropriate address, true) and got the sender's e-mail account cancelled. Is there more to the story? Because if not, it sounds like Mr. Schwartzman was in the wrong. Sending out one e-mail to the wrong person is annoying, but it's not spam.
I need to back this up. While many people may see a managable "trickle" of two or three e-mail messages a day, I get on the order of 100 to 200, split fairly evenly between work and home. Much of what I do involves working with groups benfiting newsgroups or the underlying internet protocols -- so, that's how my e-mail address gets out.
Here's a sampling of what I've received at my work address over the course of the past 24 hours; I will have about as much waiting for me when I get home:
[1]
From: Ancestry.com@opt22.edirectnetwork.net
Subj: Trace your family tree FREE at Ancestry.com
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 9:28 AM
[2]
From: WinterGamesInfo@opt16.edirectnetwork.net
Subj: Get ready! You're going to the 2002 Winter Games on us!
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 7:56 AM
[3]
From: Savings_From@opt07.edirectnetwork.net
Subj: Save $500* on Cabinet Refacing from Sears!
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 7:52 AM
[4]
From: Jose Bautista
Subj: EARN $2 - $8 PER CLICK FREE!!!!
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 7:50 AM
[5]
From: sales@cmbcomponents.com
Subj: HOT PARTS IN STOCK
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 7:37 AM
[6]
From: maletta665661@ahff.se
Subj: 15 days to 1,000 Dollars in Your Pocket.
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 7:37 AM
[7]
From: Make Money
Subj: Who Wants To Be a Millionaire??
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 7:35 AM
[8]
From: ipopatmis@yahoo.com
Subj: Home Loan Center... Save Money! FE
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 7:12 AM
[9]
From: gift@opt05.edirectnetwork.net
Subj: You've been selected to receive FREE Software from Sega, IBM, Disney and many others...
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 6:54 AM
[10]
From: wesson
Subj: Increase Your Size And Performance NOW 32363
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 6:07 AM
[11]
From: Just For You
Subj: Earn your degree online - FAST!
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 6:07 AM
[12]
From: Nicole Jameson
Subj: Re: Business Opportunity 23328
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 5:26 AM
[13]
From: RallyRacer.com@opt03.edirectnetwork.net
Subj: Casting Call for Reality TV's Fastest New Show!
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 5:26 AM
[14]
From: Sarah Kingdon
Subj: Re: Business Opportunity 12887
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 5:23 AM
[15]
From: number0845@login.yahoo.akadns.net
Subj:
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 5:09 AM
[16]
From: number0845@login.yahoo.akadns.net
Subj:
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 5:07 AM
[17]
From: dj1y1s@msn.com
Subj: Don't suffer in debt any more, info inside. [skjg4]
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 4:34 AM
[18]
From: dj1y1s@msn.com
Subj: Don't suffer in debt any more, info inside. [skjg4]
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 4:32 AM
[19]
From: ReferralWare@opt03.edirectnetwork.net
Subj: Be VERY careful with this...
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 4:08 AM
[20]
From: Credit Relief!
Subj: BAD CREDIT? Consolidate BILLS! PAY OFF Credit Cards!
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 3:06 AM
[21]
From: photography.com@opt25.edirectnetwork.net
Subj: Win $10,000! Free Photography Contest- Enter Now!
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 2:56 AM
[22]
From: marketinfo2002771230@yahoo.com
Subj: TRADING ALERT (6163EwQi9-20@11)
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 2:42 AM
[23]
From: Here it is -
Subj: FREE Home Security System from ADT!
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 2:42 AM
[24]
From: ipopatmis@yahoo.com
Subj: Home Loan Center... Save Money! FE
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 2:35 AM
[25]
From: Congratulations!
Subj: We're ready to send your FREE* GIFT
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 2:20 AM
[26]
From: uklkritgfuhjyntjk@msn.com
Subj: Historic Highs are ahead
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 2:20 AM
[27]
From: tuesdaymano2@yahoo.ca
Subj: GET MORE EXPOSURE ON THE NET W/MASS E-MAIL-------GET 1 FREE MILLION -09-0-0-
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 1:40 AM
[28]
From: astroleads@china.com
Subj: global exposure - we do the work
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 12:57 AM
[29]
From: Trudelle
Subj: Got Resolutions?20910
Date: Wed 2002-01-09 12:44 AM
[30]
From: Your_Smart_eStore@opt34.edirectnetwork.net
Subj: FREE!* Kids Software - Phonics, Reader Rabbit, Leap Ahead! and more...
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 10:59 PM
[31]
From: wefjr@usa.net
Subj: Smiles worth a thousand words
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 10:56 PM
[32]
From: GleInt25@yahoo.com
Subj: No Boss! No Suit! No Commute! Time:10:14:10 PM
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 9:49 PM
[33]
From: Your Opportunity . . .
Subj: Why pay more for Domain Names?
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 9:46 PM
[34]
From: Kelly_Peterson@mantramail.com
Subj: You Can Copy Any DVD
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 9:42 PM
[35]
From: Ryan Feldman
Subj: Closer to the half century mark?
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 9:37 PM
[36]
From: Referralware
Subj: Be VERY careful with this...
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 8:12 PM
[37]
From: John Murdok
Subj: Hey!!
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 7:11 PM
[38]
From: gman3067r65@yahoo.com
Subj: Cell phone owner
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 7:10 PM
[39]
From: Broderbund
Subj: Discover the FUN way to get organized in 2002!
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 7:00 PM
[40]
From: Coupons! Coupons!
Subj: Post-Holiday Clearance Deals! + Plus Year Rounds Savings!
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 6:59 PM
[41]
From: CopyANyDVD817338@mail.ru
Subj: Dvd Movie to CDROM!!
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 6:40 PM
[42]
From: don_smarty@yahoo.com
Subj: As Seen On TV
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 5:46 PM
[43]
From: eDirectNetwork
Subj: Get your favorite CD's FREE (details inside)
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 5:24 PM
[44]
From: don_smarty@yahoo.com
Subj: $$$$CASH USING YOUR P. C.$$$$$$
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 5:16 PM
[45]
From: Blair
Subj: Shop & Save with Free Shipping at Blair.com!
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 5:11 PM
[46]
From: news@bluecom.com
Subj: Stock clearance
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 5:02 PM
[47]
From: CopyANyDVD028440@mail.ru
Subj: Dvd Movie to CDROM!!
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 4:49 PM
[48]
From: Kyung
Subj: 70% Saving on Insurance HU
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 3:59 PM
[49]
From: fine_cigars0109@writeme.com
Subj: for all the Cigar Aficionados in the world
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 3:20 PM
[50]
From: Quit 4 Good
Subj: Be Free
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 2:56 PM
[51]
From: teamst78@excite.com
Subj: Trial Offer - Alternative to Viagra..... Time:2:19:34 PM
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 1:42 PM
[52]
From: 20merchantacc@msn.com
Subj: ACCEPT CREDIT CARDS & TRIPLE YOUR SALES 23699
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 1:23 PM
[53]
From: bushy_george9977@altavista.com
Subj: Enhance your Sexual Experience Naturally
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 1:13 PM
[54]
From: umbrella34@hotmail.com
Subj: FREE Embroidered Patriotic Checkbook Cover
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 12:33 PM
[55]
From: holloweed09@hkem.com
Subj: CAN MASS E-MAILING WORK 4 YOU? GET 1 FREE MILLION =--0====-
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 11:15 AM
[56]
From: jerry1965@yahoo.com
Subj: GET THE BEST NET EXPOSURE W/MASS E-MAIL--GET 1 FREE MILLION L;;
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 11:14 AM
[57]
From: eDirectNetwork
Subj: Tell me something.... for the chance to win an X-box!
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 11:13 AM
[58]
From: 4828515travelincentives2002@aol.com
Subj: 4120 Would you like to lose weight while you sleep? 2851548
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 11:06 AM
[59]
From: Save BIG on Insurance!
Subj: No Obligation! Life, Health, Home, Vehicle, Business!
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 10:57 AM
[60]
From: Anna
Subj: Please call me back... It's Important! H
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 10:49 AM
[61]
From: sales@cmbcomponents.com
Subj: TXC03452C10GA FOR SALE *
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 10:43 AM
[62]
From: Bill Formacker
Subj: RE: 10948
Date: Tue 2002-01-08 10:31 AM
[Note: there were about six additional spams in east-asian character sets that the lameness filter forced me to remove]
Dude. 1-3 are cool, and not spam as long as you are generating these addresses manually, knowing they are HR department emails who are willing to accept resumes, which I'll assume is the case... except that...
4 is fucking lame. Delivery confirmation is an existant feature of email, which notifies the recipient of the request for confirmation. You vbscript is no better than any other spyware.
And such lameness makes me doubt that my assumption of non-lameness regarding 1-3 is correct. Lamer.
The enemies of Democracy are
I think the point is to (1) have a way by which servers can be set to recognize & reject bogus return addresses, and (2) get enough servers running this way so that the ones that don't download the patches can be blocked without major disruptions. Spam aside, if we keep giving equal rights on the net to insecure boxes and outdated server programs, eventually any 10 year old with a DDOS script is going to be able to recruit enough zombies to bring the net down world-wide. So at some point we've got to black-hole those that aren't even making an effort...
OTOH, I really don't want to rule out anonymous mail entirely. Let's make an exception: false-names get black-holed, but return address = "anonymous.coward" (say) gets passed through the backbone. Individual users can choose whether or not to bounce anonymous mail, and if a server is getting overloaded those may go first.
The other issue is that there are some legitimate reasons for wanting responses to come back to a different IP address than the sender. So it should be possible for you to convince the server that you do own an alternate return address, and have it accept that as legitimate, or even do the address change for you. But I'm not sure the extra code complexity would be acceptable in all server installations...