Slashdot Mirror
Improving Computer Form Factors?
eschasi asks: "Recently we've been seeing some trend towards
smaller footprint machines like the new iMac or the tiny PC system
shown in this
recent article. All these tiny systems have scalability or quality
problems for me, and I don't think it has to be that way. But all the
solutions I see require discarding much of what we think is standard
to desktop/deskside mechanical design for PCs. Apple has been able to
do with much more freedom becuase they own the whole process. PC
makers, however, don't. The last major improvement to PC
motherboard/case design was the ATX design, and that was evolutionary
rather than revolutionary. I think that major improvement can still be
made in an evolutionary way. I want both worlds: I want a small
footprint; I want it in a premium system; I want it to have enough
room for a pair of hard drives, a 5.25" external slot, and a 3.5"
external slot; and I want it using largely off-the-shelf components,
and I don't want to have to re-invent ATX and PCI and ya-da-day to
get it!" Do you feel the same way? How would you improve the
current crop of PC form factors?
"IMHO large chunks of the problem could be solved by taking
advantage of both sides of the motherboard. Put the CPU and most of
the misc. chips on one side, put the expansion slots and RAM on the
other. The case design would have to change but that's quite doable.
Using both sides of the motherboard does more than reduce footprint
by half while returning to full expandability. You also get the
benefit of having the RAM sit directly opposite the CPU, reducing
trace length problems and permitting RAM bus speed increases. Other
timing problems might also be reduced.
I've left aside the rest of my extensive arguements for why this is
or isn't a good idea; what I'm interested in is this:
- Do other people see the same drawbacks with small-footprint systems?
- What seems to be out there on the drawing board for post-ATX systems?"
There are other form factors, such as NTX, that one could build a small computer from. The major problem lies in mass-produced small footprint cases; these can be difficult to come by. Someone pointed me to this cheap chassis at GoogleGear. It might be worth looking in to.
Its called MicroATX and FlexATX. One of which(i cant remember) the FV24 Shuttle system uses. The problem is manufacturers not correctly implimenting the standard, makes for hard interchangability of parts.
I would much prefer something where you just plug the drive in like it were a card and off it goes
It's been done. Look up microchannel architecture (or better yet, open up an old IBM PS/2). Everything slid in and out on rails, and where other computers would use screws, they used fat plastic pins. Drives connected to the contoller by a riser card with edge connectors.
0 1 - just my two bits
But let me say how nice it would be to have the audio connections in a convenient place up front. It bugs the hell out of me to have to reach behind my PC, which is a mess of wires.
Sounds like you could use something like this.
The idea of puting all the chips on one side and slots on the other, while it sounds easy is a real nightmare for HW designers. Many of these chips have 500+ pins (PGA) or 1000+ ball (BGA) these are all comming from a chip less than 2" on a side (PGA) and 1"+ for BGA and all those wires need to go somewhere, the PGA devices have to have holes in the board and can only get wires out from underneath, by going between pins and often only 2 wires fit so another wire has to use another layer. The problem is layers increase cost much faster than additional area, so the boards being bigger than they have to be saves money. There have been specialty technologies developed to get higer denisties, but these are majorly expensive and not realistic for consumer level products. The most impressive I've heard of is IBM super-computer technology, which used a 57 layer board, getting 8 layers to line up is expensive and there is a 30% scrap rate (IIRC) they had to make 100+ boards at 57 layers to get just a couple of working boards. The best way to make smaller machines is to go multi board and stack, the intel processor modules go along way in this direction as do the PCI adapter board that have one slot that you plug a board into that has multiple PCI slots. The heat is going to be the bigest problem no matter how hard you try, smaller means less air and as clock speeds increase less air isn't the right answer. Water cooling, or the electric coolers could help, but its always a how much do you want to pay to get small, fast etc...
-Tammie
The number of layers required to make the board two sided would be so high that the added expense would definitely be noticable. Like 3 TIMES more, at least. Just going from 4 to 6 layer pcb design makes manufacturing more expensive, and also increases defect rates, further increasing the costs or the board. I don't think most slashdotter's (or pc users in general) will want $300-$400 system boards.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
There already is a further evolutionary move towards smaller PCs. Just not for premium users.
The MicroATX/FlexATX/WhateverATX form factors are the latest steps towards a smaller PC. You can reuse most of the ATX parts for a smaller system. Of course, the problem is that most people who like premium computers want lots of slots, so that doesn't happen.
So the market of people who want small PCs who aren't willing to buy an already made low-profile PC from someone, who want good parts, is too small to be useful.
Now, eventually motherboards will get smaller for the simple reason that as speeds go up, traces need to be shorter. And when there isn't room for improvement, parts will be integrated. Think of disk controllers, serial controllers, etc.
The main reason why you don't like the Shuttle low-profile system is probably video, which is right now too much of a moving target. Eventually, video will settle down and people will be able to get great 2D/3D for a $25 chip. At least, until they find a new area to push video cards with.
Now, it probably WOULD be possible to attach components to both sides of a motherboard. But you wouldn't want any user servicible parts on the bottom, because that would increase the difficulty of upgrades. This won't give you a perfect reduction in motherboard size simply because the motherboard layout is subject to a lot of finicky tollerences that mean that certain parts need to be in certain places.
I suspect that the ATX form factor could use some changes. I'd like to see explicit support for front-mounted jacks, better management of the LED/Speaker/Etc jumpers, standardized front-mounted ethernet activity lights for rackmount, etc. But remember that the ATX form factor is best extended over time with compatable changes instead of going through massive changes all at once. That's the beauty of FlexATX/MicroATX -- they didn't require massive retooling of assembley lines to the new standard, and you can always stick a FlexATX or MicroATX motherboard into a regular ATX case, in a pinch.
Gentoo Sucks
Laptops have everything integrated and to upgrade anything, if possible, you have to buy it from the manufacturer (namely the CD/DVD/whatever).
:)
The Shuttle SV24 allows you to use one PCI card, a 5-1/4" bay and your choice of processors (okay, maybe not _any_ processor, but still, you have more choice than with most laptops). You're not stuck with the relatively low-res display that the laptop has and you can use your preferred monitor, keyboard and mouse. It's also nice to have the keyboard disconneced from the display so you can get a more ergonomic setup.
Yeah, if you've got a USB keyboard and mouse, you don't really have to worry about that, but then you'll need to get a hub. And you can plug your external monitor into the laptop, but why spend the money on a laptop anyway? For the built-in UPS/battery?
No, Tom's Hardware has it right- the only problem with the Shuttle design is the integrated graphics (and possibly the audio too), but for most people, that's a pretty reasonable compromise for a small unobtrusive system.
Yeah, I'd like to wait and see what might come out with the nVidia GeForce chipset in the Flex-ATX form factor.
Interestingly, notice how no one cares about where to put a floppy drive?
I could also see hard drives and CD-ROM drives going this route as well.
A few years ago, Intel and Microsoft came up with a spec called Device Bay that would allow end users to easily slide-in USB and 1394 drives.
Never caught on with OEMs though. Probably because of the lack of integrated 1394 controllers, but also because in the white-box market every penny counts, and for things like the iPaq desktop, the vendor would prefer that you buy proprietary parts.
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
I think yyou mean NLX form factor and not NTX. In any case, you make a valid point. These flexATX boards are a nice idea, however they are a hack job of a standard (ATX) that wasn't designed with compactness in mind (in my opinion). Shrinking the ATX form factor comprimises expandability--typically a tiny ATX board has only one PCI slot and integrated everything. Also, the small flexATX cases strike me as not very serviceable (cramped, awkward layout, cooling issues and so on).
The NLX form factor was designed for compatness, serviceability and flexibility in mind. The mainboard itself is very small and has no expansion slots--rather it has a card edge that plugs into a special slot on a backplane. The backplane contains the mainboard slot plus one or more PCI slots (the only drawback I see is that I havent found an NLX backplane that has an AGP slot--other than that it would be an ideal form factor!). The typical mini-desktop might only have one or two PCI slots, but with this form factor largger cases or industrial racks could have a backplane with many more slots (expandability).
Also, since the mainboard plugs INTO a slot rather than having slots with cards in them it makes expandability/serviceability MUCH easier--it you need to expand memory, upgrade or replace the motherboard, etc. you simply unlatch the board and pull it out the back of the case, without removing any cards or disassembling the chassis. The prime drawback, as sachmet mentions, is the lack of mainboards and cases sold in this form factor. Consequently they fetch larger prices. Why this is is beyond me--I guess it's the inertia of maintaining a modicum of compatibilityh with the 20 year old PC form factor...
s/Dr. Who's/the Doctor's/
You don't want to use both sides of the motherboard - it makes production a nightmare.
Consider a single sided board:
Solder screening deposits solder paste on board
Pick and Place machines place the parts on the board. They are held in place by the surface tension of the solder paste.
IR reflow melts the solder. Any misalignment of a part is handled by the surface tension of the liquid solder.
Board cools.
Smoke test.
Ship it.
Now, consider a two sided board:
Screen solder on backside.
Pick and place parts, using small daubs of glue to hold the parts on the board (surface tension won't hold a part against gravity).
IR reflow backside. Because parts are not free-floating, any misalignment stays.
Flip board over.
Screen solder on top of board
Pick and Place parts.
IR reflow. Solder on bottom of board melts too, hence the glue.
Smoke test.
Swear, since the parts on the bottom of board are out of alignment and board doesn't work.
www.eFax.com are spammers
Check out Matrix Orbital's collection of LCDs and VFDs. They're pretty snazzy-looking, and lcdproc clients for processor usage, network usage, are already around. I have two of their VFDs (a 20x2 and a 20x4) and they are good blinkenlights. LinuxCentral sells them.
I know this isn't an answer to all your needs, but it should help a little.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Great little machine, if you've got the money for it, and have a reason for wanting it...(easy machine to haul around for gaming sessions). But this machine's exactly what you're looking for.
Every time a guy gets a threesome, somewhere in heaven an angel gets his wings. --Cary Tennis
Now fast forward to today. I've been eyeing the smaller cases, but have been unwilling to buy one of the "Book PC's" which is typically a Flex ATX case. They wanted $100 for a case. With only a 150watt power supply to boot. But as of a month ago the Aopen flex ATX cases are in the $35-40 range, and I'm getting ready to make the leap. The remaining hurdle for the Flex cases is the availability of motherboards for the AMD line of processors. It is easy to find a flex ATX motherboard with the Intel 810 chipset, but you get cheap video with a poorly performing Celeron processor. Another minor drawback is that most of the current flex ATX cases/book PC's can only take a Pentium 1Gz because of heating and inadequate power supply wattage. Which will also kill idea of putting several hard drives inside the case too. Those drives take about 30-50 watts at startup time (each). I'd much rather have a Duron with a TNT2 or GeForce video card in the one available slot, but they aren't available yet. Nforce would be great for this application too, but they have just started to ship the full size boards. The "niche" flex ATX market will have to wait for probably another 6 months, but it will come.
So summary. Wait a little, it is coming.
Religion and science are both 90% crap..but that doesn't negate the other 10%.
I had on of those IBM monitors with a cdrom and floppy disk attached .
I know it may save space inside the computer but from an upgrade perspective it really sucked.
i had to worry about special drivers for the I/O card they made for it which was completly proprietary not to mention large and clumsy.
I ended up litterally jumping on it several times before making a new system myself
If I had only known the pain I would face ahead of time I would have bought the ugly machine next to it.
Check this out:
h tm l
http://www.griffintechnology.com/audio/pwrmate.
What is it? It's basically a really good looking knob that plugs into your computer via USB. Got some continuous value you want to fiddle with, like the volume? Plug this baby in and LIVE THE DREAM!
As for more blinking lights, I think what you want is one of the serial-controlled electronic LED signs.
That is the single stupidest idea that I've heard to date. You obviously never worked with fiber. Optical connections are not only NOT better, they are more expensive and less reliable. BTW, the optical connections on new stereos are avoided by true audiophiles due to their poor quality. High-quality copper beats fiber at reliability, ease of use, and bandwidth. The reason it's used for long transmission lines (such as Internet) is because you can put more strands into the same space than you can with copper. But you obviously don't understand that it's a one-time deal. Once you attach that fiber to the endpoints, you can't detach it.
Where is the universal cable?
FireWire and USB were supposed to take care of some of these problems. Why can't we have 1 high speed cable ( like scsi ) that delivered power, that all devices could be linked to? I am talking about replaceing PCI, AGP, IDE, SCSI, FireWire, and USB to one nice highspeed standard. This could change the way internal drives are plugged in, as well as make hot swappable components very easy.
USB is nice, I have no FireWire devices so I haven't played with yet, but neither can compete with the data transfers of SCSI. Why Not?
If you want to talk about revolutioning the PC this would be a great step.
"Always give your best, never get discouraged, never be petty..."