Slashdot Mirror
Non-Traditional Career Routes?
Dave Bieler asks: "With such
a broad range of interests in science and technology, it was not easy for
me to decide on a major in college. Currently, I am an Electrical
Engineering major at Penn State, however I have considered several other
majors: Computer Science, Computer Engineering, and Physics. Since
science and technology is booming, it may be possible to get into a career
in an area other than that traditionally associated with certain majors. ex -
a Physics major becoming a Computer Security specialist. I'm curious to
hear about any careers that were preceded by non-traditional paths."
Speaking as an Electrical Engineer who decided to drop that and go into
computers, this question strikes a bit of a chord with me. Has anyone
else gone to college intending to prepare for one career, only to fall
into another, either by luck or design?
Don't we get these questions at least once a month asking about:
:)
"What should I major in"
"Is this major better"
"What did you do with your major"
etc...etc...etc...?
I just seems to me that we do. Mod me down, karma cap lets me be like this
Get your Unix fortune now!
I've found that I work best in environments where I'm given an assortment of tasks and left to my own devices. I spend a majority of my time on RM, but I also act as my boss's "go-to" guy. It's really nice 'cause it gives me leave to operate somewhat outside the normal chain of command in our engineering organization (I'm not senior to, say, the development lead, but I'm not *under* them, either).
Not sure if this would work outside of a mid-size startup, but it's something I enjoy. And it has very little to do with 19th century west-central Wisconsin farm communities.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
I think EE is offers an unusually wide range of options - we do hundreds of different things. But most majors offer some diversity. As long as you don't go into elementary ed, you can customize your path as much as you want in the real world, it seems.
spacefem.com
I'll probably get some heat off this sd but in my experience its easier to move towards CS with a different degree than the other way around. I know of a number of people with various engineering degrees now doing CS for a living. I don't know of anyone with a CS degree doing mechanical or electrical engineering though.
I had much the same problem deciding a major while in college. I ended up going for an ECE (Computer Engineering) degree. Its really a mix of CS and EE which worked great for me.
One should not theorize before one has data. -Sherlock Holmes-
I have a master's degree in English Literature, with an emphasis on Early English Literature and Folklore. I have presented a paper at a conference, had it published in the proceedings, and was probably going to pursue a doctorate.
But I met my wife, moved to the city where she lived and needed something to do. Pursuing a doctorate in her city would have been problematic (Ask me about in-state school rivalries sometime you want an earful.) so I went in to law school, figuring if I made it out I could do wills and real estate transactions.
While there, I worked on the college's computers. This wasn't a big leap since I had been using and playing with computers since I was making sprites move on my old Commodore 64 and figuring out how to cheat at Jumpman. I turned that part time student job into a full time job and dropped out of law school.
So that's the story of how a guy who used to have the tale type index numbers memorized now sets up webservers, writes code for a Novell network, and when needed does helldesk.
That's like saying that pre-med courses are useless, 'cause you can't do anything with just it. Poli sci degrees need some grad work to be useful.
I've seen several people use it as a starting point for some quite interesting careers.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Minor in humanities & a language and major in Electrical Engineering.
You'll be all set for a career in telecom, computers, power industry, physics, applied research, math, & I'm sure there's other stuff. Plus you won't be a boring know nothing and knowing another language helps you have adventures (job, career, contract, etc.) in other countries.
Physics is too damn narrow, and the goal of computer science is to eliminate computer scientists. With an engineering degree you can't go wrong.
[o]_O
I have a BS and MS in EE. It gets me interviews but I program exclusively these days. It seems to me that it does carry some level of respect for the person who gets the degree, it isn't a cake walk. Occasionally I use my DSP education in my work, but not that often.
For the most part, I get the satisfaction of knowing in intimate detail how most things electrical work. Sometimes it even impresses women at parties who have had too much to drink.
I guess the bottom line is, if your enjoy the subject matter, stick with it. If you can accomplish finishing that degree, you can do almost anything.
I have a physics degree, and I work with XML developing a web solution for insurance companies. I find that day-to-day, I use none of the specific knowledge I gained as a physicist, but every day I use the problem-solving skills, observation skills, etc., that I gained.
Colleges and universities will need to learn that there's only so much they can do, and that education continues when the student receives their sheepskin.
Libraries are in dire need of programmers and system administrators - the values of libraries closely resemble the values of the Open Source movement, and libraries have traditionally been the overseers of information. Now, with the corporate sector moving in, the face and nature of libraries and librarians is changing. Unfortunately, librarians are slow to accept these changes, due to the need of a new set of skills, overprotectiveness of their traditional duties and roles, and because the unknown is always a scary thing. The more librarians-to-be who acquire technology skills in relation to libraries, the better chance libraries will continue to thrive and maintain their role as champions of the freedom of information.
"What we have here, is a failure to communicate." - Cool Hand Luke
I decided to pursue a Physics major, because it's something I find really interesting. Although I used to toss around the idea of becoming a CS major while I was in high school, I quickly realized that I would hate the schooling. And, after all, college isn't just to prepare you for the "rest of your life." It's four years (or thereabouts) out of your life; you might as well get as much out of it as possible.
What employers really seem to want is experience, not a specific degree. If you want to do something like this, jsut make sure you get some experience before finishing college. Having a major in another field will only increase the number of things you can do. And employers like that.
How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?
I got my degree in mechanical engineering, all the while taking sys admin jobs for different university departments. I took CS classes as electives whenever possible (ice skating was always full). After graduation I entered the work force doing unix/linux development.
Eventually I'd like to optain a position that uses both of my skills areas. Some of combination working with a design team and the IT department. I don't even know what you would call such a position or if it even exists. Ideas?
I graduaded high school class of 2000 and I had no clue what I wanted to do. Sure, I knew I had to go to college, get a degree, etc. I couldn't be humpin it at some store for the rest of my life. Well, I had been screwing with computers for some time so I said "sure! why not?" and signed up to be a Comp Sci major at my local university. God that was dumb. In my 5hr calc1 class I realized that I hate math. I had been always okay with it, and with good teachers had been able to noodle my way through pre-calc. However, when paying $500 for a class - i realized it sucked - just a little too late to get a refund.
Thats when I realized something very interesting.
I had taken 4 years of Spanish in highschool, a year in 8th grade, and a few summer plus program classes. When I started classes I was offered to start in a 300 lvl spanish class. I took Grammer 210 to be safe and went from there. What was sweet was that I got retro active credits from Span 101 up to 210. I got 18 credit hours for the price of 3. I then found what I wanted to major in: Spanish.
Now, before you laugh, let me point out that I realize this: It is like majoring as undecided. With a major in spanish, and then I can minor in whatever, including another language, the sky is the limit. Lets say I get burned out on computer shit and just want to use them in my free time - well, with a comp sci degree, that would be too bad so sad. With a language degree, especially in Spanish, I can get a job really anywhere. If I want to work for Boeing, Sprint, etc. I am in like flint. If I want to work for FBI, CIA, etc. I just need to minor in Criminal Justice. Even then, Its not a requirement. If I want to work in the tech sector, I am fine there with a degree and my tech experience.
If all else fails - you will find me teaching for my alma mater for $25k a year (in KS - that goes far) and summers off
The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
It's been quite a trip, but I can assure you it's not a very unsual one. There's a red line. Or, if you wish, an eternal golden braid.
"If you think education is expensive, try ignorance" - Derek Bok
I did undergrad in engineering physics, PhD in astrophysics, then found out that pursuing a professorship is a difficult proposition.
So I switched gears entirely and took up quantitative finance, and I'm now working on a trading desk doing modeling and risk management.
Kind of an unusual route, but that's the advantage of physics - it gives you a broad background in math and problem-solving that you can apply to lots of different fields.
Other people in my engineering physics class have gone on to do aerospace engineering, law, business school, programming, architecture, and lots of other stuff.
So: do physics. It's fun, suitably geeky, and it opens lots of doors for the future.
All opinions expressed herein are not my own; I haven't had free will since last year when aliens ate my brain.
No college/univerity, but been architecting Investment Bank trading systems for the last few years - and yes, we are making money...
Pick something fun to study at university (or "major in" if you're in America), then pick something that pays well when you graduate. Don't ever expect your degree to be relevant to your job. FWIW, we routinely hire engineering/science grads over CS for both s/w development and junior trading jobs.
"Business majors" generally end up working for HR...
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Park ranger in Yellowstone park, maybe!
No more late night calls, beeps or "gotta fix the server ASAP!" Emails. No more lost sleep, hurried meetings or pissed off customers...
"Please don't feed the bears." :-D
You'll waste your college years if you treat it like a career school. Get a degree in whatever interests you most. If you're really worried about your career, take a couple computer classes on the side or something.
The only common thread through these last twelve years has been a good attitude and a commitment to learn. I look for those qualities in everyone I hire. My staff includes ex-grade school teachers and philosophy majors, and all are doing well!
Helevius
The only three majors of all of my friends who actually are working in their majors are. Teaching, Computer Science and accounting. Basically everyone else is either working in computers or teaching at a community college. That should say something.
"as plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee" - Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz. (One man's humorous is another mans flamebait)
You are actually choosing your subjects based on a future career? That's interesting.
In my view, few of us has any idea what we are going to be doing twenty years from now. We don't know which industries will be big, which will fail, or which all-new fields will be open by then. Especially at college age, you don't know what you will still like to do in ten or twenty years time (when you get upwards of forty, you start having a pretty good idea about it, though).
The way to choose your major is really to take two criteria into account: what subjects do you actually like; and what subjects will give you a broad enough foundation to be able to keep on choosing your path many years from now.
Majoring in something you really dislike just because there's plenty of jobs, because your family expects it, or because it carries with it an aura of status is a huge mistake. You might be doing that stuff for most of your life - do you really want to be unhappy with your job for most of your working career?Chances are you'll drop out - either at college or later - so you might as well choose something you actually like instead.
Getting a broad, foundational education is just as important. Sure, being a trained Cisco engineer pays a lot of money right now, but will it still do so in fifteen years? And what if you want to change to something else? The basic sciences are a good choice: physics, math, computer science, chemistry - they all tend to be useful almost no matter what you decide you want to do with your life later on.
Me, I waffled between Computer Science and Literature. I took CS and mathematics, and I haven't regretted it. Do I work as a programmer? No (though I might go back to that again in a year or two).
/Janne
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
I got a BS in Civil Engineering then took a left turn. I discovered that, if you're designing bridges as a Civil Engineer, you design your first one in College, then every other bridge you design for the rest of your life is a scale model of that one. (a simplification, but I didn't see it as a particularly EXCITING career).
:)
That and I didn't want to build something that might fall over and KILL someone.
Computers were always a passion, but I didin't take CS because I didn't want to hear some Grad Student tell me I was wrong.
So I got a job writing Software for Civil Engineeers. It used my background, and got me doing something I liked. Then that job migrated to Network Administration, then Website design. (Now it's moving back into Enterprise server design and Security Analysis....now THERE'S a job that's not going away any time soon!)
I'm not unusual. LOTS of people get jobs that have nothing to do with their major. The BS piece of paper shows that you're CAPABLE of learning, and have learned the discipline to do so.
That aside, ANY Engineering degree will be worth more than a Psychology degree. (The most popular and easiest to get piece of paper at CSU.)
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
Riparian systems at first (that's rivers in plain English), then on to Cartography (map making) when the Legislature decided yooniversitees were for communists and that farmers' taxes shouldn't be used, and that all sorts of programs needed to be cut because edukashun and nawlej are evil, and gives people ideas.
From there, Cartography was being taken over by GIS (Geographic Information Systems), which is CAD and databases hooked together. http://www.esri.com is the big name in GIS, for the curious.
Throw in all the various jobs I worked to pay for college like river guide, carpenter, housepainter, bus driver, writer.... Took me till age 27 to finish college because I never received any aid, and I never liked the school loans program. (Sorry, but a loan is not aid.) So I traded off longer school and the ability to have lodgning and food for no debt.
From GIS it's a short leap to learning how to manage the computers, to my current job of computer consultant and programmer.
Your birth is your starting point, and fate has some destination in mind for you. Don't take the direct route. Some people do, and they stay in the same job for 50 years and retire happy.
It's the journey, not the destination.
Since I was 11 years old, I had a insatiable desire for mathematics. I devoured every book I could get my hands on. Once I made it to high school, I felt compelled to advance myself through self study. This lead me to compact four years of high school mathematics, including Calculus, into two years. I spent the final two years of high school taking college-level mathematics courses.
Needless to say, I thought I was destined for a career as a mathematician. During my second semester in college, I took an introductory course in C because I thought it would be interesting. I wanted to learn more about programming since computers were a hobby for me.
A few weeks into the course, I learned that I had a knack for programming. I think it satisfied a primal urge I had to read, learn, and build new things. After this realization, I decided to become a double major in mathematics and computer science. I must say I have not regretted this decision once.
My former love has now become my hobby and my former hobby has become my love. I would have never imagined that this would happen. To anyone debating whether or not they should change majors, I say follow whatever your instinct tells you. You can always tack on another major or just switch completely. You will regret it if you do not follow what you truly desire.
I started out doing a course in Computer Science. However, along the way I realized that I wasn't all that interested in mathematical software specification, algorithm analysis, etc. I was more interested in design issues, and looking at how computers can be improved, not so much technically (altough it always helps), but more from a design standpoint. So now I am doing a course in Human/Computer Interaction. I'm sure there are many people out there who only find out what they really want to do once they've actually spent some time learning and know a little more about the domain they're in.
You could start a web-based community of geeks which sit around all day discussing nerdy topics while the cash flows in from ad banners. After it gets really big, you spend yourself doing more interesting things, occassionally breaking yourself away from your anime tenticle rape to get involved with the community by bitchsla-
Wait a minute...
Shit. Nevermind.
Why bother.
Two reasons. Non-CS grads:
1. Are more used to solving real-world rather than virtual problems;
2. See the computer as a means to an end, not an end in itself.
I'd cross a bridge built by a physics grad. I wouldn't breathe on one built by a CS...
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I have an English degree (with a concentration in writing) from a liberal arts college, myself. After I graduated I took a job in a call center doing tech support, and eventually moved to a support position in the IT department at my alma mater.
The nice thing about working for a college is that most offer tuition waivers; which means that, if things continue on the schedule they are right now, I will have a BS in Computer Science in a couple of years and be able to move into a better paying (and more interesting) development role.
Please note that this is probably not the best way to make a lot of money; support jobs are hardly the path to wealth. But if you ask anyone who has worked at a college before, the work environment and low stress are a wonderful benefit.
--saint
I don't see much correlation between degrees and people's careers in the real world.
Most of the really hot-shot computer folks I know have degrees in English, or psychology. Just because that was interesting to them, and then they wound up working in computers.
Myself, i went to art school and have a degree in fine arts. Not useful for computers, but I don't think many poeple "learn" computers in college anyways. I was doing illustration and comic books, then wound up doing a lot of computer graphics (because it pays well) and now here i am working for NASA doing research for medical uses of technology. Each career step was perfectly logical for the choices and opportunities I had available.
This next year I'll be going to Kenya, Brazil, and possibly Afghanistan for work, and there's no way anyone could have pictured this career path back when i was in my first painting class debating what kind of canvas to use.
Don't sweat your major, study what interests you, and get a degree in anything. Having 4 years of focused work is all that a degree means. You're going to learn everything on the job that you need to know -- from your peers, and books in your own time.
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
So, I just graduated as an EE and got a CSC job! You barely learn anything in college anyway, the majority of education happens when you start working. For me, at least. And, I self-educate myself quite a bit too. Classes really cater to those who can't teach themselves, at least in my experience...
Not too many schools seem to take that approach, and it's really sad, because universities shouldn't be trade schools. The goal of getting a bachelor's degree should be broad learning, mostly learning how to learn, actually.
If you're concerned about exactly what you're learning, I strongly suggest that you re-examine your priorities. Sure, you'll probably want to focus some of your energy on learning methodologies that are helpful in your intended field. But what you really want to do is learn how to learn.
It's a sad reality, though, that specialists are more highly regarded and paid than generalists.
I'm a hiring manager for software developers. As such, My favorite degree for someone to have is a generalist engineering/science degree with a focus/minor in CS. Second would be a CS degree, followed by CS/EE and EE alone. My experience is that people who chose specifically to learn the science of programming while in school are more likely to be good programmers than those who chose to focus solely on EE, Physics, etc.
Generally speaking though, I doubt that this is because they learned about CS in school. I think it's just that good programmers are more likely to seek out such degrees than they are to seek out degrees in Physics, etc.
I don't mean this as an insult to those people. Many of them are "brilliant" programmers. They can hack with the best of us. But, frankly, programming is almost the smallest part of being a software engineer. Design and debugging will take up much more of your time in real life (the more of the former you do, the less of the latter you will have to do in general).
Hell, some places, meetings will take up more of your time, which just goes to show that people skills are important even for geeks.
I suppose I'd have to say that for the high tech computer industry, CS/EE would be the degree that's most likely to be offered by your school that is the most flexible and most transferrable to other areas. At least, it's probably the most likely to get you interviews.
What you do at that interview is really what will determine whether you get hired, though. Learn to be witty and urbane. Learn to think outside the box. Learn how to read documentation and find obscure solutions in it. Learn to be arrogant about your ability to learn anything anywhere (just be sure not to be "arrogant without cause" :-). Those things will help you a lot more than learning to program or design circuits.
I am finishing my degree this semester in Animal Behavior/Neurobiology, but have been a sysadmin and/or network engineer for almost 5 years now. The degree is just paper, the real skills needed by any half-way intelligent person to succeed in a computer related field are just work ethic and ability to learn. Everything else is secondary.
Actually I should have added another option. Back in school for a teaching, CS/CIS, Accounting degree:)
"as plurdled gabbleblotchits on a lurgid bee" - Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz. (One man's humorous is another mans flamebait)
A degree from college does not necessarily mean this is the only thing you can do. If you become a doctor or lawyer then yes you have specific area of study, but most EE, CS, CE, Physics, Arts majors and some others the job can vary....
Only 'flamers' flame!
Hi,
I'm British. Sorry about that.
Anyway, we're very lucky in Britain that employees are not quite as concerned about what your degree is in. It is not considered essential to have an MBA to work as an investment banker, or a computer science degree to work as a programmer.
I speak from experience: I 'majored' in Philosophy, became an investment banker, and dabble in programming. (Not bad for a man with a lower second...)
People should look at their degree as their last chance to enjoy themselves and do something they may not be able to ever do again. Use your degree as an opportunity as a chance to expand your horizons, not as a launch pad for a career.
At the end of the day, you can always learn to be programmer or a networking specialist: and your degree may not be the best place to learn those skills.
Just my ha'pennys worth.
--- My dad's political betting
In 1995, I got a couple of temp jobs for a lousy wage (five quid an hour) doing basic data entry stuff. One job entailed moving Lotus 123 files into Excel: they turned out to contain macros, so I taught myself VBA from the manual and help files. Already knew about Linux and the Net from a kernel-compiling friend, and realised HTML was too simple to make a career out of; did some digging, and picked perl to learn over Java and tcl (which looked like the best bets for future net programming languages.) After a couple of years I'd tripled my salary and was learning as much as possible about networking and security - I thought the Net boom would bust fairly soon, and reckoned those would be good (and more importantly, interesting) areas to get into.
Alas I timed things wrong: employer went bust last summer leaving me stranded on the dole. I'm in the classic "can't get the fist info-sec job without prior experience" Catch-22.
Of course, five years of practice & experimentation on my home network, plus
getting as involved as possible in sec issues everywhere I worked, obsessively
reading Bugtraq, Incidents, SANS, CERT, nanog etc lists, Northcutt/Novak, Garfinkel/Simson, Cryptome, yadda yadda, doesn't count for much when their are MSc - qualified people with 5 years solid security work and a CISSP out there looking as well. [ Ob Begging: Gissa job, anyone? (London, UK.) ]
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." -- Goethe
I majored in Classical Civilization (specializing in Latin and Rome) for my BA with the intention of going into publishing. After a year at a major talent/literary agency, I realized that I was in the wrong industry. I had no official computer courses on my resume; I quit, took one, and got a job as a Software Engineer at a large Aerospace company. They paid for my MS in Comp Sci.
The point is that you should study what you love. Learning how to learn and how to synthesize disparate solutions into a single elegant answer or how to even approach a new problem is more valuable than learning a language or getting other easy-to-acquire technical skills. Save that for your spare time. If a company is convinced that you can intelligently solve problems, the fact that you have a Physics degree rather than a Comp Sci should not matter. Just remember that the important things to learn in Computer Science is the theory, which you can usually learn through books. Don't let anyone tell you that you have to learn specific languages or programs; those are tools, not skills.
Russell Ahrens
A guy who started at the same time I started my job majored in something business related and minored in Spanish. He's now our main web developer for everything related to our international (mostly Central/South American & the Carribean) business.
He came to the company with HTML and JavaScript knowledge, focused on the stuff his major was in, and picked up what he needed to do more development.
Roughly, your education is what you study. The work you're paid to do you get to do by convincing someone you can do it (and then continuing to be able to do it) - it can have little to do with your degree or what you spent time studying. The fact that your field of study has little to do with what you might find yourself working on later is difficult for students to envision. Most haven't worked full-time for any length of time before. Counselors and curriculum planners leave you feeling that all these educational paths are really there to take you somewhere specific. Not!
It's very important to get a degree, any degree, but if your degree is in CS or Math or Heuristics or even (something non technical like) music it will mean little difference to someone who hires you to build a network, create an application, or run a server farm.
The biggest correlations between field-of-study and job lie in academics and professions like law and medicine and other obvious routes that have defined academic prereqs.
My advice: study what you enjoy studying and get any degree(s) until it's no longer fun. When it's time to find work look for something you feel is fun to work on. If the two don't match you'll figure out how to make it happen, because it's fun and you want to.
Simplistic, but true. But Whaddo I know?
Enjoy.
DB
I have an undergrad degree in Mathematics (with a minor in voice), a PhD in Mathematics, four years of post-doctoral work in neuropsychology. I, too, found that pursuing a professorship was a dicey proposition. I write code for a living.
I don't use my degrees, although the thinking skills are really useful. After all, writing sound code consists largely of asking "What could go wrong here, and what's the least restriction I can put on my code that will prevent it?" That's essentially the same skill that one uses in proving a theorem. It reduces your error count a lot, and time spent not fixing errors in thinking is time spent improving the feature set.
So major in math -- it's infinitely geeky, you can dress as strangely as you like, and it's loads of fun.
Many people ended up programming based on these forces. When there is a scarcity, employers tend not to care much about your degree (the recent dot-boom was an extreme example of this phenomena). But inversely, the number of jobs for physics majors per se has always been far less than the number of people competing for them.
Mathematically, it's the Pigeonhole Principle. Small numbers of jobs and large numbers of people chasing them lead to many people not getting the jobs. So they go elsewhere by necessity. It's that simple. See what a math education gets you ...
Sig: What Happened To The Censorware Project (censorware.org)
is that I entered college intending to major in Physics. I had the test scores, prep courses, and grades, and was granted a full four-year scholarship at a prestigious College.
Then they screwed up. I was lumped into an "experimental" program that rushed a bunch of us through first year Physics in the first semester, first year Chemistry in the second semester, all in Freshman year. Six months later, few of us could recall much Physics. It didn't help that the Math Department used a different symbology from the Science Departments, either. Long story short, I told them where they could stick their rushed Sciences program (the faculty there had decided that this wholesale abuse of students was the proper response to Russia's Sputnik - after discussing the matter for about ten years). But I still had them on the hook for the full four-year scholarship.
I graduated in Philosophy after _finally_ writing the thesis that this particular school required of all Bachelors candidates. Along the way, I played some poker and some pool (I'm still almost good), hit some decent parties with a few stunning women (my friends didn't know how I managed that), used and lightly dealt drugs among friends, rode a nice motorcycle, traded roommates to share a dorm room with my girlfriend, read and wrote about Plato, Aristotle, Hegel, Kant, Marx, etc.; that was a great time.
[To all you young guys in college now: while it's a different era, be really good to the first girls you date at school, I mean _very_ nice, if you get the chance and get my drift. At my college, the ladies restroom in the Library had two lists on the wall: a Green List, and a Black List. I got on the Green List, so I met lots of women while I was there.]
The school had an IBM 1401 computer with a Fortran compiler. The Physics Department was still trying to figure out how to use it for anything instructional. As I recall, they assigned us to calculate a pendulum equation, in Fortran, using punch cards, not realizing that the trig and log functions had been broken by Seniors before graduation. It was also understood that most guys would end up working in the Defense establishment, but I wasn't very enthusiastic about building bombs, no matter what the salary.
Summer before my Senior year, I got a job mounting tapes for a local service bureau on second shift. They had a Honeywell 200, 4' high X 4' wide X 20' long, 32K magnetic core memory, a card-reader and an optical-tape reader for input, 5 X 1600 bpi tape drives, no disk drives whatsoever, but a line printer. Well, I learned how to program it, hacked a datecard loading routine in H200 Assembly language, plus logic to ensure that multiple updates of the master tapes always ran in the proper sequence, built them machines for reviewing their optical tape files, supervised operators, learned COBOL, extended their specialized accounting applications, gambled to drop my student draft deferment only to draw a high lottery number, and watched billions of dollars flow from the CIA to Air America through a regional airplane leasing/services firm (whose small town accountant we happened to serve) while being thankful that I wasn't in uniform or otherwise anywhere near places where people were shooting at Americans.
My former Economics professor offered me the job as Director of my alma mater's Computing Center. I told him thanks, but no, battered about a little, got a job programming COBOL, taught myself IBM S/360 Assembly Language, got promoted to Systems Programmer, rolled out a statewide financial network, etc., etc. After several interesting jobs later, I've spent the last 15 years consulting for IT VPs, CTOs, and CIOs.
Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I believe that all you have are your values, honor, and personal integrity. Let them guide your career choices, and you will always walk tall.
Why can't a person mix-and-match? People change careers often anyhow when they get into the real world.
Why don't schools let one get a degree in say electrical engineering, computer sci, and psychology. True, you may not get deep into any one of them, but that is better than getting deep into something you may never use and never touching in school what you do use.
Get Modern, you school beaurocrats!
Table-ized A.I.
I guess you could say I've taken a pretty non-traditional career route. I hated high school with a passion and had no desire to go to college, so within a month of graduation I joined the Army spent the next four years as a paratrooper in the 82d Airborne Division.
I didn't exactly enjoy the Army, however I did excel at my duties, and had a priviledged place in my company's command as I was the only person who had a computer (Atart ST). They made me the operations NCO, gave me my own office and a private room, and basically gave me whatever I wanted as long as I kept up the company roster, produced jump manifests, reports, etc.
Not being one who particularly likes bowing to authority however, I did my time and got out of the military. I applied, and was accepted to the University of Minnesota computer science program, however I guess I still wasn't ready to return to school, because an Army buddy called me up and told me to come out to California. Within a week everything I owned was in a U-haul trailer and headed to sunny California, where I spent a couple of years as a surf bum, getting high and hitting the waves. I also got a job working as a care provider in a group home for developmentally disabled adults. I spent about four years doing that, and moved up in the company to the position of assistant to the CEO, again largely because of my skill with computers.
During this time I took a few classes at the local community college, wandering around from major to major; marine biology, journalism, English Lit., etc. But nothing really intrigued me.
I then met the woman I was going to marry, and that really set me moving I guess. I started attending community college regularly to get enough transfer credits for the University of California. I also developed a strong interest in history, stemming largely from my years of playing games like D&D. I transferred to UC Santa Barbara (by this time I was not only married, but had a kid).
I majored in medieval history, and planned on getting a Ph.D. I also worked in the university microcomputer lab. As I was getting ready to graduate, I started thinking that a Ph.D. might not be the right thing for me at that point (my Ph.D. program would take ~11 years to complete - lots of languages). I started looking around, and almost on a lark I applied for a job with a large consulting firm. I figured I didn't have a chance, but they were impressed with my grades, and I kicked ass in the interviews, so they hired me. I figured it was a good choice to work there, as I'd make as much money there with a four year degree, as I would after spending 11 years getting a Ph.D. in history.
So I moved to Denver and spent the next four years shooting up the consulting ladder. Within a couple of years I transferred to the Seattle office of my firm, and was doing very well. Then Sept 11 happend. I got laid-off. Big shock. The job market, particularly in Seattle, stinks. I spent three months looking, with barely a nibble. So finally I said screw it, and opened my own computer consulting firm and landed a contract. Now I'm happier than I've ever been. I'm making great money, am my own boss, and doing something I enjoy.
So I guess the moral is, do what you want. I got one of the worst degrees there is in terms of earning potential, but it was what I was interested in. It was fun, and I would do it the same way again. My computer skills were such that I din't think I needed a CS degree, and it turns out I didn't. Do what you love. You'll be happier in the end.
-Vercingetorix
"Necessitas non habet legem." -St. Augustine
Here in Brazil we have the solution for those who don't know exactly what to major in. We call Normal Course (Curso Normal in portuguese).
Here in Brazil high school is three years long, so we have to decide our carrer before 18. Many of us choose easier courses or even popular courses, exactly what shouldn't be done.
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I know life isn't fair, but why can't it ever be un-fair in MY favor!?
I'm not sure why you regard such a career track as "non-traditional". It is in fact part of a more general tradition -- a tradition of people who are educated as generalists confronting the economic reality that when they work in the real world, while they may indeed draw upon the skills they acquired in their education, the actual work they do will be very different.
I know a lot of people get knocked for just getting a technical degree, but it's a very good way to start for some people. I got started a little late on the higher education track. When I was 25 I got sick of drifting from one no-future job to another. I didn't want to end up delivering pizza for the rest of my life so I decided to get my ass in gear and go to school to study electronics, something I had always been interested in. I went to Devry and completed the associates degree program for electronic technicians because it was took a little less than two years. My plan was to get my foot in the door at a good company that would pay for part of the cost for me to continue on to Devry's BSEET. A few months before I graduated I got a job with one of the telecoms (one that survived the .com crash) as an equipment installer. Since I was well versed in electronics in general I was able to become familiar with a lot of the hardware, I moved from a field installer to coordinating equipment purchasing and logistics of storing and shipping the stuff to the field because the people that were doing that didn't always know what to send and when to send it. After more than a year of doing that, a head-hunter offered me a program manager job at another company. When I tried to turn in my notice at my company, they wanted to know what it would take to keep me. I told them that I wanted to get into engineering, thinking that they might offer to pay for me to go back to school. Instead they promoted me to an entry level engineering position and trained me on the job. This has worked out pretty well so far. I'm now 32 and if I do go back to school it will be to learn how to write code since the money seems to be in software. The telecom job market is scary right now. If I get laid off this year (very likely) at least I'll be able to fix TV's or something like that. Now I'm a little nervous about getting into another field at 32 when most of the entry level jobs for programmers are filled by people in their early 20's. God I'm too young to feel this old!
When I graduated from high school in '96, I *knew* I was going to be a physicist.
That lasted three weeks. Tops.
Suddenly I knew I wanted to do computer design in a big way. I wanted more than anything to created 3d special effects - primarily animation - for the movies. But what to do about college? Well, I decided that I could handle the artistic and technical side by myself, what I really needed was grounding in cinema. Cinematography, editing, lighting, etc. So, I switched from a physics major to a cinema/media studies major -- with which I graduated in 2000.
But that's not the end. About a year and a half before I graduated, I got fed up with my campus job (doing tech support for a university business group) and decided to look for a real job -- off campus. But what?
See, the 3d design eventually led to me working some in photoshop, and I loved photoshop. I knew I couldn't get a job doing 3d at my current experience level, but anything with photoshop would be terrific. And then it occured to me -- I could make web pages! I got my first job by lying about being able to write HTML, and showing my 3d work as 'design'.
This job occupied more and more of my time, and eventually I knew that there was no longer a future in the movies for me -- I was too hooked on the net. But it was too late to change my major again.
Eventually my web design led to Flash animation, which suddenly hit home for me. It combined computer-based design, my first love, with animation, my second love, and web design, my third love. It also encapsulates scripting, which is my newest love.
And suddenly my degree in Cinema/Media Studies from the University of Chicago WASN'T A WASTE! I was able to focus my education in cinema, and adapt it to flash animations. The result is, I get comments all the time, that my animations play more like movies.
The moral of the story is, do what you love. If you love more than one thing -- figure out a way to combine them. If you become unhappy with it, don't be afraid to evolve, but keep your past because you can always learn from it.
Punctanym: alternate spelling of words using punctuation or numerals in place of some or all of its letters; see 'leet'
That's a quote from Mark Twain, a smart man.
School gives you a piece of paper, and maybe some education, but it doesn't determine who you will be or what you'll do.
I started off majoring in chemistry back in '87. I started programming in about '79. I was a really good programmer. Chemistry was something I got interested in after a poor year of chemistry in high school and studying organic chemistry during my summer break and really loving it.
What I learned is that what interests me is not necessarily what I should study. I dropped out for a year, then went back as a computer science major and eventually dropped out and got a job as a programmer.
The classes I look back on as providing me with the best education, were my chemistry and English classes. I was way ahead of my Comp. Sci. program. I wrote a Pascal compiler just so that I could pass out of the compiler class. I showed up to my assembly language class twice. The first day and the final exam. I got an A+.
I'm not bragging, I'm just saying, school is one thing, education is another, and your choice of profession yet another.
I'm lucky, I can make a good living in my chosen profession. It's something I love to do and I'm good at it.
I'm 33 and my education is far from done. I learned a long time ago that I learn better on my own. Since then, I've studied physics, languages, chemistry, medicine, law, you name it, I've stuck my nose into most of it. I'm not a genius, and I'm not as good at any of these as I am at programming, but this is my education. School didn't educate me, except to let me know that I learn better without it (save the English and Chem classes).
Study what makes you happy. Then get a job that makes you happy, in whatever field. Take it from me: Making good money at a shitty job sucks, and making mediocre money at something you love is awesome. That's the only thing you should consider. Consider school 4 years of a chance to learn things you don't know anything about and to learn more about the things you want to know. When it comes to getting a job, go after what you want to do. Forget about which profession will make you the most money (unless that's what makes you happy).
Do what you want, not what others would suggest you do.
When I first started college, I was a CS major. Orginally I was going part-time, and working full time at a local computer company, doing anything from building point-of-sales systems to writing software.
:-) But that's what I did. Where the previous teacher was just basicly teaching typing, I was teaching them about how computers actually worked, how to use the internet, etc. Even had a group of 8th graders who worked on the school website. I even got into some basic prgramming later in the year using the C compiler for the Gameboy. Hello World on a PC isn't too interesting to a 8th grader. Do the same program, and put it to a GB Flashcart and have it run on their gameboy, that's something cool.
:-) Of course, people in the CS dept. kinda chuckle when I say I'm going into education because they think I'm not going to pass up a $60k/year job to go to school for another year to make $30k/year. But it's never about the money, about doing what you like to do.
When I left(long story) I was informed of a part-time teachine position at a local elementry school. It was a private school, so I didn't need to have my certifications, and a CS major at the university was what they were looking for. I loved it. Learning about the differnt educational packages, how kids used computers, teaching them all I knew, etc. Nothing quite as exciting/nerveracking as having a class of 3rd graders assembling your new dual celeron system
Well, I transfered schools(Attending the University of Pittsburgh) I decided to go into Education. How Pitt's education program works is I'm still majoring in Computer Science, but taking courses that will get me into the School of Education when I graduate. So in 3 years, I'll have a BS in CS and a Masters of Education.
I figure I won't have any problems finding a teaching position holding a CS degree. And I can get into things like developing quality educational software. Or even work for Apple
I too had quite a time trying to decide upon a course of study. I chose biology for my undergraduate degree, and even accomplished some successful research/got my name in a few publications... I was happy with the academic atmosphere.
Then for my graduate degree, I decided upon computer science. What an incredible mistake!!! I do not reccomend a small state university if you try this, because I never heard the end of how I could never be a "real" or "successful" computer scientist, no matter what my grades or accomplishments were. THIS CAME FROM THE FACULTY WHO WERE SUPPOSED TO BE MENTORING ME!
I worked at IBM for a bit, and now I believe them.
My exit evaluation? "Linux is a nice hobby, but real computer scientists use Windows. You really need to learn how to program for the Windows platform."
I think they were about as forward thinking as the professors I had.
Just for grins I think I will learn how to program for the Macintosh platform instead. X seems so much cooler because it is unixy.
Become a CPA or a lawyer. You will always find work, and have a resonably good career.
Trust me. Stability and comfort are much more pleasant than uncertainty. Study what interests you in your free time, but train for a career that is tangible.
Your major in college doesn't determine what job you will end up with, it determines what classes you will take. Therefore, major in an area with classes that you will enjoy. In my case, I enjoyed technical courses with stuff like math and electronics, so I majored in EE. At the same time, I had interests in literature, writing, and philosophy, but I didn't particularly like classes in those areas (some of the literature courses were quite interesting, but I absolutely hated the one philosophy course I took), so I pursued those as outside interests. I also enjoyed playing around with computers, but I had no interest in CS classes. The result was a resume with a pair of EE degrees, a good range of technical skills, and various activities well outside the realm of EE (school newspaper, writing tutor, etc.).
When it came time to look for a job, my coursework and project experience didn't point at any one specific job - I had enough skills and experience to get a job in a variety of areas like hardware design, telecommunications, systems engineering, software design, consulting, and probably many others. The company I work for now does a lot of systems engineering, but you'll have a hard time finding anyone with a systems engineering degree - as far as I know, that major does not exist (and if it does exist somewhere, it shouldn't). When you get a job, you will have specific tasks that will usually require you to draw on your experience in general and not specific coursework. You may find some details helpful, but most jobs aren't the same as any college class (I would suggest staying away from those that are, as they could lock you into a specific position with no room to move).
Remember, even within a single major, there are many paths that you can take, making even an EE or CS degree a bit ambiguous. What will ultimately matter will be your full range of skills, not the letters on a piece of paper (unless those letters are "MCSE" of course). What is important is to enjoy what you do and build skills in the areas you are interested in. When deciding which of your interests (assuming that your interest is equal in all cases) to make your major and which to make a minor or hobby, start with the ones that will give you the most flexibility in the future and match those to the positions that require the most rigid structure to provide the greatest reward. For me, an EE degree provided the best opportunities, so I majored in that and left the rest to hobbies and outside interests. You need to rank your interests similarly.
For example, if your interest is in becoming a computer security specialist, as in your example, an EE or CS (I would suggest EE, Master's if you can do it) degree with a concentration in communications/crypto/etc., a minor in physics, and system administration as a hobby would put you in the best position to get the specific job you want, while still giving you the necessary skills for jobs in many other areas. Going straight at a specific job area without other supporting skills or getting a degree in another area with just an interest in the job area will put you at a competitive disadvantage (especially with the recent change in the job market). If you change your mind later or find an opportunity in another area that is too good to pass up, the more flexible skill set will put you in the best position to succeed. It is always possible to do something like major in Chinese history and go on to design propulsion systems for NASA, but don't go convincing yourself that you can always get away with that just because someone else did. There are a lot of variables at work, so you need to do as much as possible to minimize their effect on you if you want to pull off a big career shift.
My college roommate got a B.S. in Physics with minors in CS and math, and he went on to law school to study intellectual property/patent law. This has always struck me as a good way to put a physics degree to work without becoming a physicist and dealing with the requisite 5+ years of grad school getting a union card^]^]^]^]^]^]^]Ph.D.
Of course, with many subfields of physics having way more jobs than people to fill them, you might just opt to just stay in the more traditional physics tracks. Many of the national labs, e.g. LANL and LLNL, pay in the 90-100k+ range with nice benefits packages for entry-level Ph.D physicists, and they are aggressively trying to hire people. With the demographics of the labs as they are, they will likely continue being as aggressive in their hiring for another decade or so at least.
I majored in Journalism and spent so much time fixing the crappy Apple Talk NW that I ended up swtiching to Windows (sorry Linux just wasn't available in 1987) and NW the two so we wrote on Win and did Layout on the Mac.
Next thing I knew I was a Sys Admin with an English degree.
This
Frankly, if you are technically minded, it probably doesn't matter what you major in within the Science or Engineering departments. It's more about just getting a degree. CS is a bit easier than CmpE or EE due to less math and no hard-core engineering classes. Whatever. Education doesn't stop after school. If you put your mind to it, you can do anything you like. Just get through school and move on.
Since science and technology is booming ...
If you think this is a boom, I shudder to think of what you would consider a bust.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
-Legion
I'm not sure what the rest of the places out there are (not) doing, but I'm currently in a 5-year, dual-degree program of Engineering Physics (EP) and Computer Science at the University of Saskatchewan (yes, it is a good school as far as Engineering goes). I've noticed most universities don't offer anything like our EP program, but it's basically a physics degree with more engineering applications. Kind of Theoretical EE, with some other stuff on the side. And unlike other stories I've heard, about 90% of graduates from this program find work before they've finished the degree.
It's not exactly a common path, but it's a great way to get involved in high tech/R&D areas. I'd personally recommend it to anyone that is looking to do something more with physics/engineering and still wants a CS degree (Granted, it's a three-year degree, but I'm seriously planning to turn it into a four-year).
- Relativistic? That's barely Newtonian!
Kind thoughts do not change the world
I first attended college at the California Institute of Technology; I was a chemistry major, but most of my friends were majoring in physics.
By the time I finally graduated from (a much lesser) college, only one person from that group was still a scientist, and he'd gone into astronomy. Nearly all of them had been sucked into the computer industry, including myself.
I think the computing field attracts those who couldn't hack it at a real science; the promised land, where one could earn a six-figure salary for writing ten lines of code a day (not to mention the agreeable prospect of not having to master any difficult mathematics) beckons. The withering of the high-tech job market in Washington has hurt me, but in a way I'm glad it happened--maybe the truly good people will keep on _earning_ their salaries, while the dime-a-dozen computer geeks who got into the business because they though they could make easy money playing with their toys (I include myself in that group) get weeded out.
(this turned into a rant mostly unrelated to the parent comment. sorry)
...or you can drop out of college and become the richest man in the world.
Big deal, you can't reasonably dole out advice based on a few one in a million people who, due
to luck or inate talent get ahead. I had a friend that dropped out in the 8th grade and by the time I started college was already making more money than my parents, but nobody can expect things like that to happen. It's like buying lotto tickets and expecting to win.
Every time these stories come up, there's always a string of "I said FTM, and left the oppressive accademic environment and now I'm working my dream job" but how do we know they wouldn't have done better had they stuck with their education? I'm sure those that dropped out, failed and regreted it aren't so quick to brag about their experiences.
The fact remains that universities haven't yet completely become trade schools. While your young and have no real responsibilities (house payment, family, etc) you should take the time and get the most from the experience. If your interests are in two completely different fields, go ahead and get a double major or multiple minors; you'll never have the freedom to do so again without sacrfices. (IE, the orignal poster, because of the overlap of the subjects, would have no problem majoring in EE & Physics with a CS minor (or you could just pick up an MS in math, making all those fields 'trivial applications) adding an extra 2yr tops to the total time in school). Or maybe an EE/Phyics degree then graduate CS program. If you've got what it takes to be an exception to formal learning, you should have no problem comming up with with a good plan.
my sig's at the bottom of the page.
22 hours of class doesn't mean 22 hours in the class room and labs. It means 22 credit hours of classes. My typical weekly schedule was 22 hours in class, 12 hours in lab, many hours of homework, 20 hours of work at a job to help pay for school. That means about 60-80 hours a week of work and academics. Add in clubs and sports and it becomes a real schedule.
THree Mile Island happened, nearly all reactor orders were cancelled, and the Nuclear Engineering Division of GE didn't send anyone to take the two graduate classes I needed for the degree (and they weren't going to offer them for a single undergraduate
I answered the Navy's ad for nuclear engineers, but they diverted me to fly--but I have no coordeination, so I got an honorable discharge and a plain ticket home.
I'd enjoyed the limited legal analysis in the Naval Law class, and chose law school over a Ph.D. in aviation engineering.
After five years of that, I landed back in graduate school for a Ph.D. in Econ, and ended up leaving with a degree jointly in econ and stat . . .
Most people don't move this much, but take the courses/major that interestyou. As long as you have enough math, you can pretty much move from anything to anything--but it really helps to learn your calculus and linear algebra young.
hawk
Generally--it's the past perfect, indicating a completed action.
It can lead to problems, though: I had a legal writing paper come back with "p.v." all over it, so I took it back to the instructor to ask what that meant.
"Passive voice. You're not supposed to use that."
2 things: 1) You are supposed to *avoid*, not never use, the passive voice (but I left this out, as it seemed beyond her.)
2) "That's the past perfect,not the passive."
"tee-hee. I always had trouble telling those apart."
I managed to supress the groan . . .
hawk, now trying to figure out if the abbreviation for Amanda is 'manda or 'Manda . . .
>running thru your head all day...
Over my dead body!
We almost didn't name her Amanda over concern that she might be called Mandy . . . And I've threatened a friend or two who started to use it . . .
As Johny Fever noted, there's a place for Barry Manilo, but it's not on the publoic airwaves . . .
hawk