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EverQuest and the UN

maddugan writes "NewScientiest.com has a piece on how EverQuest has spawned an economy with a per-captia income comparable to that of a small country. Mostly from profiteering on eBay. If it was indeed a country, it would rank 77th, just behind Russia." It'll be quite interesting to see what happens as MMORPGs gain popularity and absorb more and more man hours.

112 of 362 comments (clear)

  1. Invade France by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    "If it was indeed a country, it would rank 77th, just behind Russia."

    Must be about time to invade France then. Seems like everyone else does it.

    1. Re:Invade France by daeley · · Score: 5, Funny

      Must be about time to invade France then.

      Yeah, but the French are saying their Maginot Firewall is completely impregnable! ;-)

      --
      I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
    2. Re:Invade France by JThaddeus · · Score: 2, Funny

      I dunno... Based on America's experience in the 19th Century, it seems that one should recommend you Spanish speaking countries to those attempting to build a military reputation.

      Q: Why did the French plant trees along the Champ Elysee?
      A: Because Germans like to march in the shade.

      --
      "Love is a familiar; Love is a devil: there is no evil angel but Love." --William Shakespeare ('Love's Labors Lost')
    3. Re:Invade France by nick_davison · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yeah, but the French are saying their Maginot Firewall is completely impregnable! ;-)


      As any MMPORPG player will tell you - look for the gap in the polygons and slip through it. France may appeal to the UN to get you banned from the server but all their bases are belong to you still.

    4. Re:Invade France by Clubber+Lang · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, but the French are saying their Maginot Firewall is completely impregnable! ;-)

      Installed as a result of the e-Schliffen plan no doubt

      --
      Actuaries - making accountants look interesting since 1949
  2. Wasn't this just posted on /. ? by dood · · Score: 2, Informative

    This is a lot like:
    http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/01/23/2131 25 9&mode=thread

    1. Re:Wasn't this just posted on /. ? by thehossman · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Technically, this slashdot article is about the NewScientiest.com article, the previous slashdot article was about the orriginal paper the NewScientiest.com article is about.

      --
      -- The Hoss Man
  3. National Export... by tsmit · · Score: 4, Funny

    would that be geeks?

    Or maybe virgins?

    --
    Yes, my girlfriend is a BitchX
    1. Re:National Export... by invenustus · · Score: 5, Funny

      One summer a couple of years ago, my then-girlfriend and I were in different towns, so we spent a lot of time talking online, and eventually we got into MUDding together. We each had two characters that would go around gaining experience and wealth together, and we'd joke about sex a lot.

      One night we were going around buying equipment, and we kept kissing each other's characters. So we found a room alone, and I signed off one of my guys, and my remaining guy had a threesome with her two characters. A week later one of her characters took on both of mine.

      Boy were we a weird couple.

      --
      grep -ri 'should work' /usr/src/linux | wc -l
  4. And the disturbing thought is... by Cinnibar+CP · · Score: 2, Interesting

    And the disturbing thought is, if all of this commerce is going on in a virtual environment, what is the "gold standard" for the monetary unit and how stable is that economy? I'm also curious as to how an "online economy" can function in a complete abscence of necessity. Every item in EQ is essentially a luxury item, there is no food/water/shelter requirement being satisfied.

    1. Re:And the disturbing thought is... by plover · · Score: 3, Interesting
      An interesting comparison would be that I heard an NPR commentator announcing that WalMart had become the largest corporation on earth, passing Exxon. But his point was "They make nothing."

      EverQuest makes nothing, too. Or does it?

      --
      John
    2. Re:And the disturbing thought is... by RFC959 · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Interesting questions you raise. I'd suggest that one of two things will happen: either
      a) the ops will introduce some kind of in-game "need", or
      b) they won't, in which case the economy becomes driven by non-need items/services...but...I'd point out that this has already occurred to a large degree in the real world. Everywhere, even in countries which aren't "rich" by Western standards, people spend a lot of money on things that aren't necessities. Look at how much gets spent on Hollywood, after all. Luxury is capable of sustaining quite an economy by itself. (But then you need things to make the luxury items...)

      Another point to keep in mind is that even if food and clothing and shelter rain from the sky, there's always a shortage of something. Most interestingly, there's always a shortage of you. You can't be everywhere, see everything, and do everything, and neither can anyone else - so you better run and see Eric Clapton now, because there are only so many seats, and he and you won't live forever...

  5. Duplicate post? by Blackwulf · · Score: 5, Informative

    Didn't we just hear about this the other day?

    This article references the one we already had about the Norrath Economical Report...

  6. Evercrack is addictive by Artifice_Eternity · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My stepfather-in-law has almost ruined his marriage with this. It's all he does when he isn't at work.

    Don't know what can/should be done about it. The question is, who is benefiting from sucking money out of so many people's wallets?

    1. Re:Evercrack is addictive by PD · · Score: 5, Funny

      Can't blame Evercrack for this. People have been ruining their marriages since waaaay before online gaming. The technique of "incessant yelling and screaming" was patented at about the same time as "nagging the hell out of your husband", "sleeping with the babysitter", and "blowing the house payment on a lifetime supply of pudding."

    2. Re:Evercrack is addictive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative
      "Don't know what can/should be done about it. The question is, who is benefiting from sucking money out of so many people's wallets?"
      • Network connection to deal with hundreds of thousands of users
      • 24/7 Tech support.
      • 24/7 In game support.
      • Server maintenance
      • New servers
      • Continuing game development
      • New zone development
      • Fan Faires
      • People who want to play Star Wars Galaxies that's being developed by the same people.
      • Associated web site
      • HR, billing, office spaces - all the support costs
      • And not to mention the shareholders who'd like to see at least a reasonable profit after all of that.

      I could be wrong, but I'd imagine that those, amongst others, are where the $10/month goes. You may notice that most of the next gen MMPORPGs are looking at charging about double that to be able to stay profitable.
    3. Re:Evercrack is addictive by Bonker · · Score: 2

      Verant should let players do what they like. Transferring the funds from one player to another isn't going to upset the economy of the game, and if after a year of playing I could make a couple hundred in cash on the side, so be it! Heck, I'd even declare it on taxes if I made enough. Why not?

      While this may be a fault of the basic game design, there are finite game-play resources designed into EQ.

      For example, a player finds that the Mega-Sword spawns in the Mega-Dungeon. If this item can be successfully sold on Ebay or Playerauctions.com without any possibility of intervention from Sony, then it encourages that player to do nothing but farm Mega-Dungeon to make money off Mega-Sword, keeping other players on that server from being able to try to get a Mega-Sword by fighting or an in-game trade rather than with real $$$.

      There are only about 30, maybe 40 EQ servers. If more than just a few people get it into their head that it's okay to do this, then it ruins quite a bit of the game play for new EQ users, encouraging them to try one of Verant's competitors.

      Now, this issue can be addressed by changing game play mechanics rather than filing lawsuits. Verant has already done this to a small degree by making many items... The Ghoulbane comes to mind... into 'No-Drop' items, incapable of being sold or traded. This is a rather

      1. Say our farmer has previously looted a Mega-sword... Every time he loots this, or any other rare item, his chances of being able to loot that same rare item go down. Eventually it will no longer be worth his time to try to loot that item any more.

      2. Our farmer is in Mega-dungeon farming Mega-swords. Every time another player comes into the dungeon, another Mega-sword carrying monster spawns... preferrebly invisible or invulnerable to the farmer. Everyone gets their chance this way.

      3. The more often our farmer loots a certain item, he stands a greater chance of incurring the wrath of the game-gods, who will reach down and death-touch him before he has a chance to loot again.

      --
      The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
    4. Re:Evercrack is addictive by curunir · · Score: 2

      Same thing happened with "Magic: The Gathering" (a.k.a. cardboard cocaine).

      I saw many gpa's drop full points because of that game. Like EQ, there became a massive market for the items from the game (the net wasn't as mature, but at one point it had the largest non-binary newsgroup on the net). The only difference was that the items were not entirely virtual. But as long as the EQ software keeps certain items sufficiently "rare", then there is little difference between the two addictions.

      --
      "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
    5. Re:Evercrack is addictive by DrXym · · Score: 2
      I play about an hour a day maybe when I have the time but there is no way that it would ever replace real life.


      Frankly it doesn't deserve to. It's an amusing diversion but it's pretty repetitive and tiresome if played for too long. Kill, med, kill, med ad nauseum.


      I have to question the sanity of those who spend their whole lives on it. I don't know if its funny or tragic considering many of them are still in school.

  7. sad state of affairs by Em+Emalb · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Wow, A game has more money than a country? What a shitty world we live in these days.

    --
    Sent from your iPad.
    1. Re:sad state of affairs by Cato+the+Elder · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, it probably does have more money than a few countries, like say, the one that sould the rights to .tv

      On the other hand, the article is about "per-captia" income. So what it really says is that people sink more money on average into Everquest than many people have to spend. It doesn't mean they have more money total--most countries have populations larger than Everquest.

      On the other hand, it is kind of sad that you can earn more from playing Everquest all day than the people in a lot of countries earn in a week. I wonder if "virtual sweatshops" could actually come into being--people come into work, log on to computers, and make virtual artifacts all day. Hey--probably beats farming.

  8. Scary, almost by Ionized · · Score: 3, Interesting

    but the economy truly is enormous. My ex-roommate played Everquest as a JOB. He made anywhere between $500 to $1,000 per month selling EQ money and items on E-bay. The economy has dropped off somewhat after Sony officially declared selling EQ items through the real world was against their policy; if they catch you now they will ban your account.

  9. A Bit Misleading by Geeyzus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This article is quite misleading.

    Basically, he calculated the approximate real-world worth of people's items, as sold on eBay, and this figure (GNP of Norrath 77th worldwide) would be correct if everyone sold everything they own on eBay, at these prices.

    Quote from the article : However, he notes that not all the assets are converted into real-world cash.

    Of course they aren't! If they were, the price for each item would be significantly lower, and the real GNP would be nowhere near what he is quoting. So in reality, if Norrath was a country, the GNP would not be as high as his estimate.

    Still an interesting thought though.

    1. Re:A Bit Misleading by Will_Malverson · · Score: 5, Informative
      [On converting items to cash...]
      Of course they aren't! If they were, the price for each item would be significantly lower, and the real GNP would be nowhere near what he is quoting. So in reality, if Norrath was a country, the GNP would not be as high as his estimate.
      You can't "convert" an item to cash. All you can do is sell it to someone else for cash. Do you claim that, say, Egypt doesn't have an economy because the things produced there are rarely sold for dollars?


      Here's an example of his argument: The game produces (via spawns or user manufacture) 10 swords of dragonthwacking per day. Those have an in-game value of 5000 platinum pieces. You can exchange pp for dollars on the open (though technically black) market at around 100:1. Thus, there are $500 worth of SoDs produced every day. Repeat these calculations for every item in the game, and from there you can figure out the GNP of Norrath.


      Remember, GNP does not have anything to do with exports. GNP attempts to measure the complete value of the production in a country or place.


      This is the same way that you can figure out, in dollars, the GNP of a place like North Korea. The closest analog to this would be to try to figure out how many things are sold by USians to USians for dollars in Mexico.

    2. Re:A Bit Misleading by kawaichan · · Score: 2

      It's extremely hard to calculate GDP of EQ, the formula for calculating GDP is:

      GDP = C + I + G + (EX-IM)

      Where

      Consumption (C)
      Investment (I)
      Government (G)
      Net Exports (EX-IM)

      --

      kawai
    3. Re:A Bit Misleading by ADRA · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The 100:1 is a floating number depending on supply and demand. If means the same as GNP if the same as GDP does, then imports / exports do equate.

      Consumer Spending + Investments + Gov Spending + (Exports - Imports)

      Exports == The "Illegal" trading of in-game items
      Imports == ($10usd * every month * Active players) + (Expansion pack price * active players)

      One's time put into the game can be argued both ways, both as an import and as a "Consumer spending". I guees it is all in how you structure your definition of the economic system.

      --
      Bye!
    4. Re:A Bit Misleading by geekoid · · Score: 2

      Still not an accurate GNP since the items have no cost, and supply and demand is almost a non-consideration.
      Monster a "drops" sword thing, even if nobody wants it.
      Plus it populace is, for all intents and purposes, immortal.

      plus you got that whole imaginary money thing.
      Considering the BEST return on selling things is about 2 dollars an hour, not much of an economy, if you ask me.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    5. Re:A Bit Misleading by csbruce · · Score: 2

      GNP attempts to measure the complete value of the production in a country or place.

      This isn't quite right. My understanding is that GDP is the value of everything produced within the borders of a country, and GNP is the total value of everything produced by assets *owned* by the country in question (or its citizens).

      This is the same way that you can figure out, in dollars, the GNP of a place like North Korea. The closest analog to this would be to try to figure out how many things are sold by USians to USians for dollars in Mexico.

      This seems a little confusing. Economists use "purchasing power parity" to attempt to normalize the relationship between currencies in order to compare GDPs. It is calculated based on how much it costs you to buy various things in each country. For example, the Canadian dollar is worth about US$0.62 in foreign exchange, whereas it is worth about US$0.78 in purchasing-power parity. Canada's CA$1-trillion economy is worth about US$780-billion.

    6. Re:A Bit Misleading by Guppy06 · · Score: 2

      "Of course they aren't! If they were, the price for each item would be significantly lower, and the real GNP would be nowhere near what he is quoting. So in reality, if Norrath was a country, the GNP would not be as high as his estimate."

      By your logic, the GDP of Japan isn't measurable from the US because the only way it could be measured is by forcing everybody in Japan to sell off their yen for US dollars. And since that would drop the yen through the floor, the numbers macroeconomists get for Japan are actually much higher than they really are. And the GDP for the US that Japanese economists get is much higher than it really is as well.

      Of course, all of these measurements assumes that the value of the observer's currency is fixed, but nobody can prove they're the One True Currency because there's no ultimate frame of reference. Even using the gold standard is no good because the amount of gold in the market changes constantly.

      Sounds like special relativity, don't it?

    7. Re:A Bit Misleading by bigdavex · · Score: 2

      You can't "convert" an item to cash. All you can do is sell it to someone else for cash. Do you claim that, say, Egypt doesn't have an economy because the things produced there are rarely sold for dollars?

      Here's an example of his argument: The game produces (via spawns or user manufacture) 10 swords of dragonthwacking per day. Those have an in-game value of 5000 platinum pieces. You can exchange pp for dollars on the open (though technically black) market at around 100:1. Thus, there are $500 worth of SoDs produced every day. Repeat these calculations for every item in the game, and from there you can figure out the GNP of Norrath.

      To do any of these calculations, we have to accept someone's evaluation of the worth of the items. So, if we use idiots to evaluate the worth of the items, Norrath has a really big GDP.

      Using this same logic, I could give a coworker a penny for his thoughts and then conclude that the GDP of our bathroom is $6,563,487. That's clearly a load of horseshit, because that doesn't represent society's evaluation of the worth of thoughts.
      --
      -Dave
    8. Re:A Bit Misleading by Syberghost · · Score: 2

      So in reality, if Norrath was a country, the GNP would not be as high as his estimate.

      So it'd be Argentina...

  10. The full research paper by ehiris · · Score: 5, Informative

    The full research paper on this can be found here

    I tried to post this article last week but it seems like I did something wrong because it got rejected.

  11. Watch out by Chagatai · · Score: 2, Funny

    Due to EQ's semi-national power and status, they have come under the scope of the Taliban. The Taliban have planned an invasion, complete with dressing all buxom she-elves in burqas, crashing 747s into Luclin, all the while shouting "Allah to Zone!"

    --
    --Chag
  12. Ten Thousand Villages new Project? by Tattva · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Ten Thousand Villages is a not-for-profit store that sells 3rd-world arts and crafts in North America for as little markup as possible. I wonder if it would be more profitable to have some of the 3rd world participants play Everquest and sell their accounts at the stores. $3.42 an hour isn't bad!

    --
    personal attacks hurt, especially when deserved
    1. Re:Ten Thousand Villages new Project? by Mr_Matt · · Score: 2

      I wonder if it would be more profitable to have some of the 3rd world participants play Everquest and sell their accounts at the stores.

      Hey, no problem! Just trek out to some remote village in the South American jungle, or Africa, or Vietnam, and set 'em up with EverQuest-enabled PCs. Who cares that they don't have power, or even potable water supplies - they'll intuitively understand the Western culture of fantasy that is EverQuest. They don't need to spend their time finding food or eking out a living - they can just play games all day, and pick up the electronically-posted fund at the nearest ATM. Because hey, it works in America, right?

      I hope you were gunning for the +1, Funny rating, 'cuz otherwise, you need to lay off the sauce. :) I love Ten Thousand Villages, BTW, but I think I prefer getting beautiful, hand-made works created by craftsmen than some cheesy RPG junk.

      sheesh...some people... :)

      --


      But what does my opinion matter, I just vote here. It's not like I have any money or anything.
    2. Re:Ten Thousand Villages new Project? by Mr_Matt · · Score: 2

      You seem to have a few sterotypes about the rest of the world that are better laid to rest.

      Perhaps...but I doubt the guy in Vietnam who made my flower-pot would enjoy a game of EverQuest - despite the availability of computers, the cultural differences are still there. I did not intend to imply that people in these countries don't understand computers, but the culture that is infused in any western-culture-based computer game would not likely hold their attention for long. You seem to have a bias about your culture and it's application to the rest of the world that would be better laid to rest. :)

      That aside, I like my humor dry, as you seemed to have intuited.

      As do I. Cheers!

      --


      But what does my opinion matter, I just vote here. It's not like I have any money or anything.
  13. all in the averages. by Restil · · Score: 2

    Most of the players aren't trading/selling players and therefore aren't earning money from the game. The small percentage that IS making the money is making a LOT of money from it apparently to average out to around $2000 a year.

    However, in any economy, per capita INCOME is not the only figure you have to take into consideration. You need to understand that while some people earn money from the selling of accounts, others have to purchase those accounts and unless they purchased the account with money made from trading accounts, then you don't have a closed economy.

    To be considered a true economy, there must be a way for Everquest to actually GENERATE wealth. It needs to create something such that the value of the products and services it offers grows completely from within its own environment.

    Players (your workers, if you will) need to accomplish something by their gameplay that increases the overall wealth of the system such that the lifestyle of the players improves. However, the best Everquest can be attributed to is the art industry. People buy and sell art, but art alone can't sustain an economy, unless you have a country that only produces art and external counties provide all other basic resources in exchange for the art.

    -Restil

    --
    Play with my webcams and lights here
    1. Re:all in the averages. by CaseStudy · · Score: 2

      While playing, I might turn a worthless bear skin into valuable armor, or spend time acquiring a Sword of Power. By bringing into the market these higher-value things, I am "accomplishing something...that increases the overall wealth of the system".

      A distinction needs to be made between making wealth in the game (which is just manipulating bits, when it comes down to it), and creating wealth extrinsic to the game (which is what the report was trying to measure). The example given above only creates wealth for the characters, not for the players.

  14. What have horses done to this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Redundant

    An interesting question would be how has the introduction of horses affected the economy.

    For those that don't know, the latest upgrade (Shadows of Luclin) introduced horses to the game. You can buy a horse which lets you travel fasters. (And look cool).

    The thing is, they are *very* expensive. The cheapest one is about 10000 platium for a slow horse going up to well over 100,000platinum for a fast one.

    Even the cheapest one is more than the vast majority of players can afford and the expensive ones only a few people can affort at the moment.

    I'd be interested to see how this affects the economy.

    Obviously it's a huge money sink, which should reduce the prices of things. (If people have spent all their money, they won't pay so much when they want to buy things)

    But also, it means that many people have got all the old junk they had in the bank and started selling it. So does this reduce prices as there are more for sale, and people want whatever they can get, or does it increase prices because people want the money to buy a horse and so are unwilling to part with items for a bargain price.

    It's interesting. But I have no answers.

    1. Re:What have horses done to this? by sunhou · · Score: 2, Informative

      That sounds familiar. Does johnburton know you're plagiarizing his post?

    2. Re:What have horses done to this? by duffbeer703 · · Score: 2

      Duplicate posts would not be a problem if the editors didn't post duplicate stories.

      --
      Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
  15. Per capita? by the+bluebrain · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Call me anal retentive, but "per-captia income comparable to that of a small country"?

    Heck - I've got a per-capita income comparable to a small country: my income devided by one.
    Well, I guess it is "New Scientist", and not "New Economist", but still...
    Gross income? Net income? Anything ...

    --
    yes, we have no bananas
    1. Re:Per capita? by man_ls · · Score: 3, Informative

      I have a Ph.D. in international market economics in my family...Her opinion is that GDP/GNP as a statistic at all has fundamental flaws.

      One of em (GDP, iirc...the domestic product) counts in everything made by non-US citizens living on US soil or employed by a company in the US. Bigger number.

      GNP counts only stuff made by US citizens made on US soil. Smaller number.

      I think a more meaningful statistic (speaking as a *not* Ph.D. in economics) is the per-capita yearly income. That compares, more accurately, the lifestyle of the people of that country on average, if they lived in your country...India's per-capita income is what...$10k/yr? Decent but that's dirt poor here in America. Guess what? So are most native Indians.

      My $0.02 adjusted for inflation a few times, and probably wrongly.

    2. Re:Per capita? by csbruce · · Score: 2

      GNP counts only stuff made by US citizens made on US soil. Smaller number.

      I was under the impression that GNP counted everything produced by assets (and/or people?) owned by a Country, anywhere in the world.

      On a per-capita-income basis, the country of "Me" is the wealthiest in the world, if we don't include the country of "max(You)".

      I'd assume that per-capita income and per-capita GDP are highly correlated.

      Also, on average, for example, Americans have a higher per-capita GDP (and presumably income) than Canadians, but the bulk of that wealth is distributed much greatly to the higher-income levels than it is in Canada. Thus, 80% of Canadians enjoy a higher standard of living than 80% of Americans, even though the "average" figure might suggest otherwise. America's a great place to be a multi-millionaire, but it's probably fairly far down on the list of first-world nations to be someone in the middle class.

    3. Re:Per capita? by toast0 · · Score: 2

      per-capita is an average, which is not a very good figure without the standard deviation...

      for example, if your country has 5000 people, and 4990 of them make $10 a year, and the remaining 10 make $450,000 a year, you have a per capita income of $100, which does not acurately reflect the income of most of the people, which you would be able to notice with the standard deviation

    4. Re:Per capita? by bugg · · Score: 2
      I'd assume that per-capita income and per-capita GDP are highly correlated.
      They're related, that's for sure.

      Income per-capita = GDP per capita - deprecation per capita - business taxes (direct and indirect) per capita, including social security et. al...

      Per-capita GDP doesn't tell us much either, unless there is a fair and equitable distribution of wealth. In most countries, there isn't. All of these economic indicators will let you see a part of the picture, but you can't piece it together with only one.

      --
      -bugg
    5. Re:Per capita? by sql*kitten · · Score: 2

      I think a more meaningful statistic (speaking as a *not* Ph.D. in economics) is the per-capita yearly income. That compares, more accurately, the lifestyle of the people of that country on average, if they lived in your country...

      No it doesn't. The reason that people are paid $2/day in the third world does not mean they have to work solidly for 2 days just to afford a cup of coffee in Starbucks. They are being paid in their local currency, which has a very poor rate of exchange to "hard" currencies (USD, GBP, CHF and so forth) because people who buy and sell currencies want hard currencies to support their other business operations, as they can be used for trading with low currency risk, and don't want whatever the local currency is. So it's a low dollar value, but it is comparable to the price of stuff in the local economy in the same way that the dollar is comparable to the price of stuff in the US.

      Quoting in USD is great for hysterical anti-globalization protestors, because it makes things in the third world seem much worse than they really are. The only way to sensibly compare living in an economy is to compare prices of goods and services relative to income, all in the local currencies, for example, what percentage of annual income needs to be spent on groceries of a given standaard for an average family of 4?

  16. Re:Deflation rate? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Redundant
    As a longtime Evercrackhead, I can give you some examples of why the economy deflates.

    When the game started out, relatively mundane items were pretty powerful because no one as yet had gotten to the high-level areas with the "phat loot". Early on, a guy running around in simple bronze platemail was a rare sight. Weapons with a damage/delay ratio of 1:3 (or 1:2 for two-handed swords and the like) were godly and commanded godly prices--if they were sold at all.

    As time went on there was inflation, as people gained thousands of platinum pieces (the EQ currency) and bid up the prices of those items. But the inflation reversed itself after a while.

    Items don't decay in EQ. They don't wear out. The only way they leave the world is if they are destroyed by a player, on a character when it is deleted, or poof when a corpse poofs. So as time went on, more and more of the items entered the economy, and better and better stuff was found. Verant has added three expansions over the past two years, and each one has had better toys and phatter loot. As that stuff enters circulation, the former "godly" stuff becomes less valuable and typically gets passed down to lower-level "twinks" (alternate characters equipped with hand-me-down or purchased loot that's better than what they could get on their own) or sold.

    Using an example--there's an EQ weapon called a Short Sword of the Ykesha. It looks like a Ghurka khukri knife, and will occasionally hit a target with a 75-point damage spell. In the early game, it used to be the bad-ass one-handed sword, a rare drop off a tough level 40ish monster in a very tough dungeon (Lower Guk). When they would be sold, which was rare, they would go for 8,000+ plat.

    Well, since the Kunark, Velious, and now Luclin expansion packs, there's stuff out there that makes the Ykesha look totally lame--plus, the number of Ykeshas on the server gradually increased over time, as more and more people entered that dungeon and killed that particular monster. The price of the weapon spiked up on my server as people started scoring a lot of money, but once the better weapons entered the picture the price went into freefall. Now "Yaks" go for 1000 plat or even less.

    It's an odd combination--people have more plat than ever before, but prices are simultaneously falling. The result is that there are level 5 twinks running around in gear that my warrior didn't have at level 40 18 months ago.

    The same thing happens as new servers are brought online, but it happens faster there because people already know exactly where to go to maximize their income and their chance at items.

    Verant has tried to introduce money sinks to reduce the amount of money in circulation (horses that cost 110k plat, for example), but that won't solve the deflation. Item decay might, but it's way too late in the game's lifecycle to introduce that. If I end up spending 15 hours of my no-life to camp the Frenzied Wumpus for the Ass-Kicking Widget of Doom, there's no way I want my widget to break or wear out in a couple months.

    In short--the deflationary aspect in EQ doesn't seem to have much to do with the money supply, it's got more to do with the supply of items that people want to trade for.

  17. Chip And Dale's MMORPG by Spankophile · · Score: 2, Funny

    I can't wait for this one: ChipNDales

  18. Just imagine by J.D.+Hogg · · Score: 2
    "If it was indeed a country, it would rank 77th, just behind Russia."

    If Russians had more disposable income, they could buy Everquest assets, then Everquest's "economy" would become greater than Russia's. No wait ...

  19. Not on Ebay, Playerauctions.com by idealego · · Score: 3, Informative

    Since Ebay stopped Everquest auctions a while ago under preasure from Sony Playerauctions.com is the main site for Everquest auctions and has been for a while.

    You can usually just a search for your server name or use their catagories. Doing a search for "prexus" as an example will show all the auctions on that server.

  20. Group attempted to sue (like tobacco) by Blackwulf · · Score: 2

    There actually was (is?) a support group somewhere about EverQuest addiction, where people post their stories about how they were addicted and how they got out of it to save their marriage.

    They have also gone so far as to attempt a class action lawsuit against Verant, much like the one that was (is?) being attempted against tobacco industries. They say that Verant is profiting off of the addiction of others, and should pay the consequences.

    They also threatened to protest at an EverQuest Fan Faire, and hand out flyers about how evil EQ was. They never showed up, but there was security looking for them anyway to keep them off of the premesis.

    Personally, I feel that the point of a game is to get you hooked, Verant seems to have done a great job of that...Almost too great.

    1. Re:Group attempted to sue (like tobacco) by NeMon'ess · · Score: 2
      Personally, I feel that the point of a game is to get you hooked, Verant seems to have done a great job of that...Almost too great.

      That depends on if you're looking at gaming from a developer/publisher's point of view or that of the gamer. For the gamer, the game should first and foremost be FUN.

    2. Re:Group attempted to sue (like tobacco) by Blackwulf · · Score: 2

      For the gamer, the game should first and foremost be FUN.

      I don't know about you, but as a gamer, it's impossible for me to get hooked on a game that isn't fun in the first place.

    3. Re:Group attempted to sue (like tobacco) by cavemanf16 · · Score: 2
      But in our capatalistic society (more or less), that's how things work. Everyone's greed gives and takes to achieve what each party wants. The gamers want something that's fun every time they play it, the game company wants something 'sticky' that will keep the players coming back for more. It's been talked about a lot more before the dot-com bust of 2000.

      Why does Coke put ads on TV and everywhere? To grab your attention and keep you coming back for more. Why does Everquest promote such addictive tendencies amongst its players? To keep them coming back for more. Ok, bad analogy, but you get my drift.

      I do find it funny that an American computer game makes its gamers, on average, more money per hour than most 3rd world countries' citizens do performing actual hard physical labor. Makes you realize just how filthy rich and corpulent our society is...

  21. Building an economy on the backs of parents.. by EraseEraseMe · · Score: 3, Funny

    [Month 1]
    Sure Johnnie, we can go pick up your copy of EQ after you clean your room...
    [Month 2]
    Johnnie, get off the Internet...I'm trying to phone your Aunt Bertha!
    [Month 3]
    Dinner time! Where is that blasted kid!??!
    [Month 4]
    Is that a new gameboy game? I see your paper route is finally starting to pay off..Or at least it's keeping you off that computer, we should have never got that high speed access
    [Month 5]
    What is this XBox thingie?
    [Month 6]
    Your teacher called...She asked for something called "Mythril Armor +4"..Crazy teachers
    [Month 7]
    Ok honey, this is getting a bit nuts...but we have to get you your own mailbox
    [Month 8]
    A new car? Just for US!? Thank you Johnnie! Don't worry about cleaning your room for a whole month!

    --
    "Anybody who tells me I can't use a program because it's not open source, go suck on rms. I'm not interested." (LT 2004)
  22. That's for you, dotcomers! by 2Bits · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Ok, all of you dotcom geeks who are out of job, what's the best way to make a living while playing the whole day long your favorite game?

    1. Re:That's for you, dotcomers! by gmhowell · · Score: 2

      Open a website whose motto is "News for Nerds..."

      Oh. Wait.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  23. Fundamental Flaw by DzugZug · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There is something very wrong with this article's argument. In a real economy, there is production and the produced items are exchanged -- money is just a means of making transactions more efficient. Economists do not deal in terms of dollars but in terms of equivalent tangable goods. In the case of EverQuest there is no production and no infrastructure. Money is simply being transfered between other economies where that money was earned by the production of real goods. Thus calculating dolars spent in transactions relating to EverQuest in order to rank it's "economy" is meaningless. You can't rank the economy b/c there is no economy.

    BTW when I say "goods" I mean goods or services or anything usefull for that matter. A programer or movie actor is producing goods just like a factory worker is. The point is that something is getting done.

    1. Re:Fundamental Flaw by wurp · · Score: 2

      I don't understand the difference. In the real world, you are participating in the economy if you go find a diamond and sell it. In EQ, I am participating in the economy if I go kill an orc, pick up his loot, and sell it (for platinum pieces). People value the loot, otherwise there wouldn't be an exchange of real dollars for platinum pieces. The exchange rate indicates the 'real' value of platinum pieces in US dollars (or any other real world currency).

      The only oddity is that the economy only produces things that can be used in Norrath, and that anyone anywhere can use that thing if they have a character in Norrath who owns the thing. Frankly, I have no idea how to relate that to a real/unreal economy. But, barring that, the analogy to an economy seems very firm.

  24. who cares? everquest sucks. by delus10n0 · · Score: 2, Funny

    see topic. p.s. - get a job.

    --
    Not All Who Wander Are Lost
    1. Re:who cares? everquest sucks. by BasharTeg · · Score: 3, Funny

      This guy is fat. I know him. Fat.

  25. Russia is not @ 77, it's at 17 by kawaichan · · Score: 2

    Russia is ranked at number 17 according to the world bank

    Number 77 is Lithuania, and you thought newscientist knows what they are talking about.

    --

    kawai
    1. Re:Russia is not @ 77, it's at 17 by Peyna · · Score: 4, Informative

      That'd the GDP, not per capita income. They were referring to GNI per capita; how much money each person in the country makes on average. Not how much money the country makes all together. In other words, Russia may be worth a lot of money, but that's just because they have a lot of people.

      --
      What?
  26. Does that mean... by burtonator · · Score: 3, Funny

    that I could defect from the US and become a citizen of Everquest?

    This seems like a good way to get around the DMCA...

    :)

  27. Wonder how Russia would do if... by BitHerder · · Score: 3, Funny

    they had resources that respawned daily, too? No more stripmining/deforestation/wildlife preservation, just set a comrade down at the ol' spawn site and wait.

    But, at least Russia doesn't have undead. Well, ok, they have muslim separatists, but nobody's perfect.

  28. This is the result of double counting... by StevenMaurer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you take the hobbies of rich people (and folks, most people posting on this site are generally rich by world standards), you can get a high "per-capita" economy for just about anything. Like:

    Economy of California

    Economy of luxury goods.

    Economy of oversized boats and cars

    Trouble is, it's all double counting. Those people's incomes are already counted as part of the US GDP. You don't get to count them again.

    1. Re:This is the result of double counting... by jareds · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What the hell? You can't measure California's economy because it's part of the US? If I tell you the GDP of North America, are we suddenly not allowed to discuss the GDP of the US? Your point is nonsensical. Whether the EQ economy is part of a larger economy has no bearing on whether it can be measured and discussed.

    2. Re:This is the result of double counting... by inerte · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes you get a high per capita income, that's one of the points of the article. Rich people spending their money on EQ.

      But no, it's not double counting. You can analize the bigger picture and still maintain data from the smaller factors that leaded to the main conclusion.

      It's like saying that in A + B = Y you are double counting A's value because it's part of the 'total' (Y).

  29. Intellectual Economy by jamesmartinluther · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As humanity progresses, new layers are added. Each new layer relies on layers below and will run at a higher level of effeciency (i.e. value creation) than thos below.

    What we have in this case is an economy which is based on intellectual interactions. People work in the corporate world (service layer on processing layer on manufacturing layer on farming layer) in order to make enough energy to interact on this new plane. It is not the first attempt to build up a new layer of value creation, nor the last.

    Everquest is limited by the rules governing it; it will remain on the fringes. Not enough value can be created to liberate this mechanism and let it take over the entire economy as a primary layer (on par with the processing or manufacturing or service economies). It is not flexible eough. I am sure one which is flexible enough will emerge (the web is one very large example).

    The same works in ecosystems in which a predator eats grazing animals, which in turn eat vegetation, which in turn eat sunlight and bacteria-processes nutrients.

    One particular predator started thinking about some things and a whole new game of layers got started. He started building farms and powered up enough value to support an entire lattice. It really accelerated once combustion engines started getting built.

    The real question is: what is the next layer that will feed on the emerging intellectual economy layer?

    Many might

  30. errors in research by Xzzy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The "research" paper this article is based on has been earning some decent discussion in EQ communities the past week or so. In the ones I participate in, some interesting discredits came to light:

    1) The survey was self-selecting. Hardly a valid research tool.
    2) Poorly worded survey questions. They were geared towards provoking a specific response.
    3) Time. This person played the game for an immensely short amount of time. People have been playing this game for two YEARS. The researcher put in around a week.

    There's more, like how his favorite city was Qeynos (definetly not a place anyone sticks around to enjoy, Qeynos is at the butt end of Norrath), but you get the point.

    I find it appalling that a "reputable" source like new scientist is actually giving this guy's poor research this kind of air time.

    1. Re:errors in research by gnovos · · Score: 2

      There's more, like how his favorite city was Qeynos (definetly not a place anyone sticks around to enjoy, Qeynos is at the butt end of Norrath), but you get the point.

      Does that make Halas the dingleberries of norrath?

      (As a barbarian shaman who spent much of his early years in that hellish, snowy wasteland, I would have to agee)

      --
      "Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
    2. Re:errors in research by Aqualung · · Score: 2

      Qeynos is at the butt end of Norrath

      Butt-end it might be... alas, those of us spent our newbie years in the Qeynos area way back when didn't have to put up with the constant barrage of people shouting for binds at the gates, people shouting for sow's at the gates, people shouting for ports at the gates, people shouting for spare pp at the gates, people auctioning off their orc picks at the gates, people shouting about who KS'd who, who's a n00b and who is uber... Qeynos might have been the butt-end of Norrath (Anyone in the know knows that Tox Forest is the butt end of norrath :) ) but it was a simpler, place, less filled with spam and uber-monkeys, and only the occasional KS'ing farmer there for Pyzjin and/or Hadden... Anyways... enough ranting :)

      --

      - Dave
    3. Re:errors in research by squaretorus · · Score: 2

      "I find it appalling that a "reputable" source like new scientist is actually giving this guy's poor research this kind of air time."

      One of the things New Scientist does well is mix 'proper' science with the less rigorous, 'pop science' that this report represents.

      As a first briefing to the world about the economy of EQ to people who haven't heard of it this report did a good enough job. Its a bit hyped up and sensational, and wouldn't stand up to rigourous review as a serious piece of research.

      BUT

      There is a lot of snobbery about science. If I go out and count the number of blackbirds in my garden every day I am doing science. If I put out food for a week I get more birds. Therefore birds like food. WOW. Scientific deduction.

      This is a similarly intuitive bit of research to do some quick, back of an envelope style, calculations to attempt to quantify the size of an economy. If there a real world economy? I think so, lets count it!

      So while I agree that this is the lower end of the scientific spectrum - I am overjoyed that New Scientist continues to publish a range of articles. This is better founded than many of the articles they publish about extreme physics, and is certainly more approachable to the majority of the public.

    4. Re:errors in research by DerekLyons · · Score: 2

      As a first briefing to the world about the economy of EQ to people who haven't heard of it this report did a good enough job. Its a bit hyped up and sensational, and wouldn't stand up to rigourous review as a serious piece of research.

      Of course it wouldn't stand up to a review.. What you read online (the .pdf) was *not the whole report*. It was an excerpted and simplified summary.

  31. Why not create a game where you buy/sell stuff? by BrookHarty · · Score: 2

    Why not create a game where you buy/sell stuff?
    The game company could charge a "tax" on everything sold, and you could only sell online via a ingame e-bay, and pay online via a ingame paypal clone.
    Make XP worth money, so you could buy XP (at small ammounts), and put in restrictions to keep the game flowing and stop player killers who have everything.

    The company should be more like the Ferengi on Star Trek!

  32. Noteriety in an alternate universe by mystery_bowler · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As interesting as the talk about the economy of Norrath is, I'm more intrigued by what drives that economy. As a former EQer (although never an addict, per say) and the son of an avid EQ addict, my observations are that the thing that drives the economy of EQ is one of the same things that drives the "luxury" economy of the real world: status.

    From a somewhat psychological view, one could argue that one of the primary addictive qualities about EQ is that it allows the player to be represented in a grand, heroic fashion. All the guys are buff and appear strong, all the girls look like a cross between Xena and two coconuts. Riches and adventure are somewhat easy to come by, given that you spend enough time playing the game, so the opportunity to escape one's mundane and unaccomplished life is ample. Given that the rest of the game's world is populated by the avatars of living, breathing human beings, it becomes more than a simple diversion to establish oneself in the society...it becomes a major ambition, just like our normal lives.

    Enter the interaction between our real world and Norrath. It is difficult for someone of average income to buy great status. Luxury cars, large homes on prime property...all these things cost tremendous amounts of money. And since most of us did not win the genetic lottery, our appearance will not gain us said status, either (hence, only a tiny portion of the population are models). With the EQ universe, the dynamic is changed. For a mere $100, large sums of game money can be purchased. For your real-world American dollars, you can purchase the most powerful, greatest status symbols of the game. You can walk through the game world boldy, showing off your prized status symbols to other players just as wealthy Americans enjoy going for a drive in their shiny Mercedes.

    The ability to re-invent yourself is a major selling point for what is otherwise a chat window with a game around it. Verant, as a business, was very wise to include hard-to-find, rare items that would confer "great champion" status to their owners. It is the same behavior we see in our society, it's just more affordable for the average person.

    --

    My sigs always suck.
    1. Re:Noteriety in an alternate universe by SirSlud · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Bang on. Another major difference is that, if you run out of money, you don't die or not eat or whatever. I totally agree that this represents the driving forces behind our material gains as social status, but little else. I surely hope EQ doesn't end up being some sort of malformed poster child for the neo-liberal free-market movement ...

      --
      "Old man yells at systemd"
    2. Re:Noteriety in an alternate universe by sql*kitten · · Score: 2

      my observations are that the thing that drives the economy of EQ is one of the same things that drives the "luxury" economy of the real world: status.

      Not unlike the motivation of many "hackers" and other open source authors...

  33. Re:Do these numbers add up? by raju1kabir · · Score: 5, Informative

    First of all, it's the per cap (and not absolute) GNP that was claimed to put Everquest right around Russia. That's pretty meaningless, as it's a self-selected group of people from the richest countries in the world who have a lot of time on their hands. I mean, the per cap GNP of my house is several times higher than that of the richest country in the world. So what?

    Secondly, France's GDP in 2000 was $1,448,000,000,000, which is a thousand times greater than the number you posted.

    The difference between GNP and GDP in a nutshell is that GNP includes income generated by multinationals based in that country. For instance, Microsoft's worldwide income accrues to the US GNP but only its US income is counted for the GDP.

    --
    "Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." -- GBS
  34. Virtual Entertainment Nation Nothing New by Mittermeyer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    At the risk of sounding like Katz, this phenomenon is just an outgrowth of meatworld issues. For instance, one of the best tulip-bulb markets of the 90s was the mass insanity known as early edition Magic the Gathering, followed by Pokemon. A small nation's economy was generated by the sales and trading activity spawned by those games.

    Witness also the huge amount of activity based on the rotisserie/player franchise sports leagues.

    EQ is just the graphic MUD equivalent of all that. Keep yer pants on, this is nothing new.

    --
    ________________________________________ History Must Not Fall Into The Wrong Hands ___________________________________
  35. Could be the saddest thing I have ever heard by pgpckt · · Score: 2


    I am not an anti-EQ nazi or anything...I like computer games, and while EQ isn't my cup of tea, I have friends who like it.

    But this is out of control. 77th richest country! If people used all that wasted time, the United States (which is the principle players of EQ) we would have the combined economys of us and Russia (?!)

    I think just MAYBE this whole thing has gotten out of control.

    --
    Lawrence Lessig is my personal hero.
    1. Re:Could be the saddest thing I have ever heard by donutello · · Score: 2

      Rest easy. The article is based on quack economics. Further, it is 77th in per capita GDP, not net GDP. I have a per capita GDP greater than most countries - my income divided by 1.

      --
      Mmmm.. Donuts
  36. The difference betwen a game and business by Vicegrip · · Score: 2

    In a game, you spend more money then you get back.

    In a business, you get more back then you spend.

    It's only a game if you're losing money.

    Now there's a thought.

    --
    Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
  37. gdp per capita by snarkh · · Score: 2, Informative
    GDP per capita does not depend on the size of the country.


    For example, GDP per capita of Switzerland is ~$30,000. GDP per capita of China is less then $1000.

  38. Studied like a NORMAL ECONOMY? CRY .... by SirSlud · · Score: 3, Insightful

    > Castronova says that EverQuest's economy can be studied like any normal economy, even though Norrath is a fantasy world. This is because of the social importance attached to the game by its players.

    Castronova believes that virtual worlds like Norrath could eventually become more closely linked with the real world. "Virtual worlds may be the future of e-commerce, and perhaps the internet itself," he says. "Ordinary people, who seem to have become bored and frustrated by ordinary web commerce, engage energetically and enthusiastically in avatar-based online markets."


    Jesus christ. I feel sick to my stomach. Can be studied like a normal economy? Hello? Can we start killing off the players when they run out of virtual water and food? Can we cut a few of their virtual legs off and then tell them they cant play the part in EQ that they want to?

    I mean, does anyone actually believe this? Are we all so wealthy that we can't understand the significance of scarcity, poverty, inequality, yadda yadda in the (earth to Castronova) real world? The idea that when you can't get your next meal, you're unlikely to be fit enough to run the capitast race?

    --
    "Old man yells at systemd"
  39. Before everyone gets bent out of shape. by mindstrm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Keep in mind that this is not insinuating that EQ is more valuable than a country, or more viable.

    EQ has a virtual economy, we can agree on that.

    A fraction of players buy/sell virtual items/money for real world money.

    This is wta they base the per-capita income on.

    The fact is, if everyone in the game started selling things IRL, the value would probably drop to zero.

    It's similar, in a way, to large shareholders of companies. Like.. say, Gates.

    You have a value on paper, but you can't just sell it all and get cash.

  40. Re:Why not create a game where you buy/sell stuff? by Sloppy · · Score: 2

    If the company who is in charge of the game actually treated virtual items as real assets, they could get into trouble. Suppose someone trips over the power cord, lets in a destructive virus, makes a programming mistake somewhere in the mudlib, or something else, which causes some virtual items (which some player owns), XPs, platinum pieces, entire characters, etc to be lost?

    You know that there should be someone demanding that the virtual losses be restored, and would sue if it didn't happen. There would also be fraudsters who could demand fake losses restored, etc.

    Considering the (lack of) reliability of modern computers and the people who operate them, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be responsible for anyone's virtual assets.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  41. What about the cost to play? by swb · · Score: 2

    The article didn't mention anything about the cost to actually play the game. Surely its not possible for the typical gamer to play the game for free, is it? Even if you crank out your $3/hr, it's costing you more to play the game (Game+ISP at least) than you're making, isn't it?

    1. Re:What about the cost to play? by WolfWithoutAClause · · Score: 2

      Um. The game costs something like $10-15/month. I pay about $2/day for my ISP (yeah, I know). That means if you play it for an hour a day, it more than pays for itself.

      And many people play for 80 hours a week. Clearly if they sell their character after a while then they are going to be in profit.

      --

      -WolfWithoutAClause

      "Gravity is only a theory, not a fact!"
  42. If pleasure were wealth, beggars would masturbate by CaseStudy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Pleasure doesn't necessarily translate to wealth. I like to sing in the shower. My singing, though it gives me pleasure, generates no wealth in any commonly understood sense.

    The only pleasure I can see attaching to the item (as opposed to that derived from the gameplay involved in acquiring it, which can't be given away or sold) is that of munchkinism, the idea that an RPG is more fun when your character has a +2 sword rather than a +1. (I don't understand it, but I'm not going to deny its existence.) This needs to be distinguished from both the pleasure derived from creating the item and the impact of the creation on the gameworld economy in any economic analysis.

  43. GNP - Economy - Production Abstraction by telbij · · Score: 2

    A lot of the comments nitpick details about the economic representation of EQ. As everyone here knows, statistics can be manipulated to show whatever you want. I think the important fact to come out of this article is just what we already know. EQ wastes a lot of time.

    Remember, however, that money is an abstraction of value, traditionally the value that was built on the backs of laborers... if people are willing to pay for EQ items, then playing EQ is a valid job. It contributes to the GNP and therefore helps the economy.

    The problem with economic indexes is that they really only measure the amount of money changing hands, but does that translate into quality of life? That is the assumption that many capitalists and economists make, but I submit that as we move into an increasingly abundant era, traditional economic indexes become more and more meaningless. I believe earning more money is only the best use of your time up to a modest income level ($30-$60k). After that non-GNP adding activities like spiritual/religious exploration, volunteer work, mentoring, open-source hacking, etc. will not only satisfy an individual more, but may also contribute more to society.

    So, to tie up this massive ideology that I've strewn about, my point is that EQ should not be judged by the cash sales it generates, but by the amount of happiness.

    Personally I feel that most computer game playing is pure escapism and thus not worth much even to the people who play it, but that's another argument for another day.

  44. Some other meaninless economic stats... by gordguide · · Score: 2

    The State of CA has a GNP equivalent to the 7th or 8th largest economy in the world.

    If the US were somehow to lose CA it would lose about 40% of GNP.

    High-tech nations have higher GNP/GDP because money changes hands. If everyone fixes their own car, GNP suffers. If everyone pays $60/hr to have the car fixed, GNP grows. Imagine a home where gourmet meals are home-cooked "from scratch" every day, vs a home where everybody eats at McDonalds. The McDonalds home has a higher GDP.

  45. Re:basic economics by man_ls · · Score: 2

    (iirc) USD $0.0178 / 1 EverQuest Platnium Piece (pp)

    from the .pdf of the study posted elsewhere.

  46. Wow by Kallahar · · Score: 2

    Wow! How do I move to Norrath? Is that in europe?

    Bill Gates is the eqivalent of a medium sized country too.

  47. Re:Rank behind Russia? by invenustus · · Score: 2
    a per-captia [sic] income comparable to that of a small country
    Indeed, that line makes no sense at all. A small country doesn't necessarily have a large or small per-capita income. Sierra Leone and Ireland are relatively small countries, and very close in size. The per-capita GNP of Ireland is roughly 40 times that of Sierra Leone. I guess they meant "comparable to that of a poor country".
    --
    grep -ri 'should work' /usr/src/linux | wc -l
  48. The world of the stupid economist brings you... by MosesJones · · Score: 2, Informative

    Egypt has had an economy for around 6,000 years, continous and recorded. Just because it isn't in US dollars doesn't mean it isn't an economy. But here is the thing, their currency (the Egyptian Pound) is traded openly on the FX markets.

    The argument you give is just plain stupid, sorry but its true. If I sell an original painting for $5,000 this does not mean that _every_ painting is worth that much, its diminishing returns, as the original poster said.

    The US is NOT the measure of whether an economy has a GNP, GNP is the GROSS NATIONAL PRODUCT of that country i.e. how much it produced IN ITS OWN CURRENCY this can then be traded on the FX to produce a Dollars, Euro or Sterling rate.

    But it really is muppet-tastic to think that because you sell one item at X that you can sell n items at X. The example you give demonstrates the failure to grasp simple concepts.

    If the US prints 1,000,000,000,000,000 1 dollar bills a day, then they'd be worth a damned sight less a week later.

    Supply - Demand, this doesn't determine GNP, it determines scarcity v market. To multiply it up means that either

    a) You don't understand economics AT ALL

    or

    b) You've also been nominated for a Darwin award because "Lead isn't poisonous in small doses so how can a bullet hurt ?"

    --
    An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
  49. Re:The Master Plan by shogun · · Score: 2

    Uh no, the only way it works is because of the interaction of the players with the real world, ie real money etc to buy/sell the items.

  50. Economics are based on Scarcity, right? by Catiline · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Correct me (politely, please!) if I'm wrong, but isn't modern economic theory based on the scarcity of goods? If nothing else, the last time this story got posted, we should have realized what a load of bunk this is.

    I don't know the numbers, but I'm sure that if I went and crunched them we would see that assuming growth trends remained the same the per-capita of Norrath would soon (5-10 years) be higher than all real countries. That is, assuming their economic model doesn't implode because they're stuck with surplusses.

    Wait a minute! Maybe this isn't so irrelevant to real life after all. All I have to do is, while stating the obvious, use the magic words "Gift culture" and "software paralells" in the same sentence as the magic /. oxidant "Eric S Raymond" and poof! Flames.

    On second thought, I kindof prefer having a high karma than a real discussion here. Perhaps some AC will do the honors?

    1. Re:Economics are based on Scarcity, right? by vidarh · · Score: 2
      There is scarcity of goods in the game. And presumably a reasonable part of production in the game is done because it can be used to aquire items or services in or out of the game.

      Now, if the game users produce a surplus, then economic theory dictates that prices will drop, as supply exceeds demand (as presumably there is no demand for Everquest items from non-players, so that even when real world money is involved all items invariably stay in the Everquest economy)

      If prices drop, either demand will increase (people want to aquire previously expensive items that are now within their reach), or supply will decrease (there is less reason to produce if your money lasts longer).

      In other words, just as in the real world, as long as supply of items is based on production by users, their economy is self regulating.

      Of course that doesn't mean it will be a stable economy.

  51. making a living at it... oops by _ph1ux_ · · Score: 2

    anyway (damn enter on submit for default)

    I built a machine for my brother in law a while back.. and kinda got him into gaming. I also took him out on x-mas and bought him EQ as I told him how much fun and great the game was...

    He played a LOT - and ended up making about 2K per month off the game... it supported him through college, but he was banned for life from EBAY (those bastards)...

    So - yes it is time consuming - however you can farm virtual product for a living from that game if you so choose.

    .

  52. Russia's GDP by child_of_mercy · · Score: 2

    russia's GDP figures are wildly misleading, mostly because such a massive chunk of the economy doesn't show up on any official ledgers.

    --
    'There is a Light that never goes out.'
  53. three 'w's, or none. Not two. by autopr0n · · Score: 2

    Looks like 'ww' isn't a valid domain in *.slashdot.org world. I got redirected to MSN, from IE.

    Slashdot should really add automatic linking. What the fuck is up with all these people posting text links when they can do HTML!?!

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
  54. Re:What is sick... by ImaLamer · · Score: 2

    Apparently not.

    If you want to get into it about the buddhist's... they aren't open to further clouding your mind with fiction when reality clouds it enough.

  55. Two reasons by autopr0n · · Score: 2

    First, sony was getting support calls on people who wouldn't give up their stuff after taking the money.

    Second, it upsets the dynamic of the game if rich people who can afford to buy this crap do so.

    --
    autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
  56. Re:Do these numbers add up? by markj02 · · Score: 2

    It means that the people living in your house are, on average, several times more wealthy than those in the richest country in the world. When comparing economies, that is a meaningful description.

  57. Is everquest productive, in an economic sense? by russellamiller · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I find this whole notion of selling virtual crafts very strange. Very, very strange.

    After all, we could do a reductio ad absurdem whereby there is no everquest online game. Instead, it would be economically the same if Tom just pays Joe 2$ to think of a sword.

    Two questions to ask, if you're interested in economics.

    1st: what good is an imaginary sword?
    2nd: is everquest productive, in an economic sense?

    Question #1.

    Someone is creating an imaginary object, and someone else is buying this imaginary object. But the imaginary object can't ever be used, except in the imaginary game. From an economic sense, is any value being created? Well, yes, because it improves the leisure of whoever buys it. It makes his game experience more fun, so he recieves a value. And from his perspective, it might be worth paying for: dollars spent for better leisure. However--

    Question #2: Is everquest productive, in an economic sense?

    In other words, is society as a whole wealthier or more efficient after a virtual trade takes place? My thinking is, no.

    Example: Joe spends 3 hours building an imaginary sword in the game, and then sells it to Tom for 2$. Tom feels that he has gotten a fair trade, because he values the three hours saved more than the two dollars spent. And Tom now has a valuable tool in the game. But it's an imaginary game! Jake, the person who runs the game, could just have easily given Tom a sword with no effort required. Or a million swords. Why should Tom pay Joe for effort that isn't really required? So from society's perspective, it seems like the 2$ has been spent uselessly. Money has been moved around, but society as a whole isn't any wealthier or more efficient.

    Now, why is buying an imaginary sword with real money pointless, from a macroeconomic perspective? After all, stories are imaginary, but we pay for books. The reason his action in buying an imaginary sword is pointless is because the resource he's paying for may be valuable, but it isn't scarce. A book, on the other hand, is scarce, in that it has only one author. And only that author can think of that exact book. But anyone can think of a generic imaginary sword without any effort or time spent. Why should someone pay for a resource that's so abundant? As an analogy, look at oxygen. Very valuable, because we couldn't live without it, but in most circumstances we wouldn't pay for it because it's abundant and cost nothing in time or effort. Similarly with an imaginary sword; anyone can think of one. The only difference is that in everquest, an abundant resource has been made artificially scarce.

    Now if it seems to you in looking back over this reply that the explanation in question 2 seems to contradict that of question 1, you're not alone. It appears that this sword has a microeconomic value, but no macroeconomic value.
    Which is why even after my explanation, I still think this is all really strange, and I don't quite understand it.

    Anyone with more of an economics background, please leap in.

    1. Re:Is everquest productive, in an economic sense? by vidarh · · Score: 2
      To put this into perspective: Artists frequently make prints. Prints are typically made in a limited, numbered series, and since they thus are relatively scarce, their price is higher. Just as with your virtual sword, the resource is abundant in a sense (the marginal cost of reproducing the print is ridiculously low compared to what a good artist can charge), but the artist choose to limit the number of prints produced, and choose to number them.

      Where is the macroeconomic value in that?

      In both cases it is artifical scarcity that drive up the cost, not the marginal cost of producing the item.

      And contrary to what you may think, producing a virtual sword in the game is not free even for the operator of the game. It may have a marginal cost very close to zero, but it is not free: There need to be some form of virtual representation of the sword, which drives up memory usage, and CPU power when the item needs to be accounted for in gameplay, as well as the administrative overhead of actually creating the iteam and assigning it a location or a player.

      Obviously the marginal cost of a single virtual sword in Everquest would be extremely small - however mentioning the above is important to show that the analogy between an artists prints and a virtual sword is representative: The virtual sword has all the same elements, including marginal cost.

      Even in your book example artifical scarcity drive up the cost, though on a lesser level (as it is in the interest of the publisher to sell as many as possible) - copyright creates artificial scarcity by allowing a single publisher to set the price instead of allowing competition in the sale of the same work to drive prices to distributors and resellers down.

      Artificial scarcity can have a huge macroeconomic impact - surely noone with claim that copyright restrictions have little or no impact on economy?

      Again, to return to virtual vs real. What attaches value to real world objects is often virtual: It is knowledge of something which makes the object desirable, not objective assessment of the utility or quality of an object.

      If you buy an original painting, you pay a premium for knowing it's an original, even if you'd be unable to ever distinguish it from a well done fake. Even if the object would be a perfect, down to the atom replica, human nature would still mean that the value of the original would be higher.

      This is virtual value. It is quantified only by the price tag people are willing to attach to it.

      Why should a virtual sword in a game be less worthy a proper economic treatment than virtual qualities of real objects?

  58. Re:I'm not sure I buy this.... by vidarh · · Score: 2
    What it's saying is that by using real world transactions to establish an exchange rate (if you can buy an item for X units of game currency, and sell it for Y US dollars, then X units of game currency is worth Y US dollars), then the real world value of the virtual wealth would place it at 77th place.

    Of course, as with any other currency, if you try to exchange everything, or even large quantities, either directly or indirectly by buying and selling items, the currency would be weakened due to supply and demand.

  59. Buy Slashdot KARMA! by jellybear · · Score: 2, Funny

    Now what would be great would be if there were a way to buy and sell Slashdot karma. Then those of us who are too busy to make insightful, funny posts, or whore ourselves out for karma can simply buy it off others who do. Then I'd be able to buy my way in and mod up all SORTS of crazy things! hehehe!

    1. Re:Buy Slashdot KARMA! by Sobrique · · Score: 2

      OK, so how much will ya offer me for a 50 Karma account? ;)
      Well, probably a few less than that when I get modded down for this :)

  60. Financial market bubbles by GodSpiral · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The low supply of people selling accounts serves to set an intially inflated exchage rate.

    The self-fulfilling desire for traders to get those high initial prices motivates some to buy virtual crap for resale purposes, thereby maintaining those high prices.

    20 years from now (or much sooner), all the accounts and virtual items will be worth exactly 0$.

    Sometime between now and then, the number of players joining the game will be less than the number abandonning the game. A rapid deline in the value of the currency will result when those abandoning the game dump their accounts.