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It's (Almost) Hammer Time
thelizman writes "C|Net is catching up on the buzz with AMD's Hammer line of processors. Of note in the article is how AMD demonstrated their 64-bit contender using Linux and Windows, instead of just Windows. In reality, Linux will likely have 64 bit applications more quickly than Microsoft, and will see use on this processor more readily than your average WinTel machine, so you know...like...it only makes sense."
...that AMD knows which way the Winblows...er, I mean...which way the wind blows.
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come with an ice pick? Cuz you're gonna need a solid block of ice to cool the damn thing. It IS an AMD, afterall.
The 64-bit x-86 hasn't been welcomed as warmly, primarily due to backward compatibility issues. Definitely having the source and being able to recompile Linux apps will give the Linux folks a jump out the gate for 64-bit apps.
:)
In general, I doubt strongly this is a AMD vs Intel issue, either. This is a Windows (and their legacy users) vs Linux (and their overly prideful users that must find every method to berate windows).
You can't touch this!
Talisman
"Study your math, kids. Key to the universe." -The Archangel Gabriel
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only versions of windows that I know of that are 64-bit are the 64-bit WinXP and maybe versions of NT (but those were probably for Alpha anyway), which are now outdated.
There are probably enough people like me that don't want to upgrade to WinXP just for 64-bit (I don't like lots of things about XP, but thats my opinion). So it would seem that Linux with Cross-platform portability (hence, x86-64) will have a better chance at propagating (spelling?) itself in to this market faster than windows.
Just my opinions, not to be taken as fact.
yeah, i've been waiting for this for a loooong time. god knows my next cad machine will be a dual sledgehammer. btw, sledgehammer is the multiprocessor one right? and the clawhammer is the single?
I belong to the ______ generation.
Ever notice, that once you break away from the WinTel monopolies... things just progress differently? I don't personally use Linux. I haven't had the time to sit down and really get into it. That doesn't mean that I don't like to see it gaining more run from hardware manufacturers and in the press. Competition always has, and always will be a good thing.
Not to mention, 64 bit processing on a desktop would be reason enough for me to quit putting it off!
Jason
He's totally creeping out the Great One, eh...
I do like the fact that AMD is planning on using "a smooth migration path to the 64-bit software of tomorrow", so we wont have to rewrite much of anything. Besides, I still like my old DOS games
LOTR: Elijah Wood is a munchkin asshat. Yes, asshat. LOL.
I don't do much 3D rendering other than some gaming action, and my multimedia is limited to playing some MP3s while I'm coding with vim. Are there any other compelling reasons for a 64-bit arch? I suppose I could load more data in registers, storing two 32-bits into one 64-bit register.... but i'm drawing a blank... someone help :)
The more you know, the less you understand.
I remember a couple years ago that OS X was going to be the next big thing with this or that feature, but no one had actually seen it. This went on for a couple years.
AMD's Hammer is the same way. We all wait with bated breath for the new processor to drop, but no one's seen it yet. It's surely not vapor because we know it's on its way, but how long do we need to wait? How far into the future should these things be announced.
Hammer has been announced far too long in the past to be of any interest these days.
Let's wait until it actually gets released and then discuss further.
...when will there be motherboards that support it?
---Windows 2000/XP stable? safe? secure? 5 lines of simple C code say otherwise!
Argh, is this going to add yet ANOTHER set of addressing modes? Now we will have:
mov ah, #1
mov ax, #1
mov eax, #1
mov eeax, #1
Seriously, I wonder how they have modified the register addressing field of the instructions to handle this.
I'm not sure which is better journalism though... on one end, you're looking more professional by not having stupid 14-year-old-girl talk on the front page. On the other end, you're cutting up someone's quote!
I'd rather have it look nicer.
Berto
Kevin McGrath (AMD senior tech) gave a great presentation at Stanford on the Hammer and how AMD took on many design concepts of the X86-64 architecture. This was probably one of the more informative lectures I have seen on the topic. The video is long though http://murl.microsoft.com/videos/stanford/ee380b/0 00927_ee380_OnDemand_100_100K_320x240.htm
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
AMD seemed for a while to be winning the price point war, getting to market at an extremely competitive cost for cutting edge hardware. According to my recent price-watching, however, this advantage seems to be diminishing, as Intel's lately been getting more competitive in their pricing in reaction to this. Maybe they're just going after the next buzzword in hopes of beating Intel at it's own game.
You want 64-bits on the desktop for extended memory. As the memory makers push memory sizes higher and higher the reality of having GBs of memory for your machine is quickly becoming a reality. I was scared recently when I found an ad for a Best-Buy machine for $1000 with 512MB of RAM. Since traditional 32-bit computing only does up to 4 GB of memory without extensions that's where 64-bitness comes into play.
It also helps for file size issues as well as addressable partition size issues, all can now be done natively rather then as hacks.
Directly from the article:
The Hammer family of processors will differ from other AMD chips--and other Intel processors--in that they will be able to run conventional 32-bit applications found on Windows PCs today as well as 64-bit applications.Perhaps we should read the article before we all run off and post ;-)
AMD: Takes an existing archetecture and extends it with an excellent talent pool of engineers that speak in 64 bit.
Intel: Buys its way out of a lawsuit for stealing 64bit microcode from the DEC Alpha, then buy's the Alpha from Compaq to discontinue it. Then create a brand new 64 bit chip using their own limited talent, while shoving the existing 64 bit platfrom into an early grave.
Does this make sence to anyone? Alpha's rock, and they have been 64 bit for years. There already was versions of Win2k, Linux and Unix in addition to major apps like SAP and Oracle tuned for the platform.
x86-64, which is what AMD is shipping with Hammer *IS* a hybrid. It is a x86 processor with 64 bit instructions added on top of the 32 bit ones. Like Intel's extension of x86 from 8 bit to 16 and later 32 bitness. It allows backwards functionality, and forward extensibility through 64 bit applications that might need it. I think it's a much more intelligent solution as there are a lot of applications that don't need 64-bitness...
Actually the Hammer series adds 8 more general purpose registers and more SSE registers. Read up on X86-64, there's more to it than just going 64-bit. For example, there's better support for relocatable code (i.e. shared libraries).
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Has anyone else noticed that the one-screen article about AMD's Hammer line of processors on C|Net is far shorter than C|Net's Intel Itanium article it links to?
The AMD article is a simple response to a press release. The Intel article is a prose editorial about the state of the industry and where Intel's new processors (might) fit in.
Tim Garthwaite mailto:tim@garthwaite.org
here comes the HAMMER
That was classic intercourse!
The PR is vague enough to be interpreted as "running a 64-bit version of Linux as well as [plain old 32 bit] Microsoft Windows". I've asked AMD flat out, and they will not commit to saying yes, Win64 will be coming to the Hammer party. MS certainly haven't mentioned it, AFAIK.
As a film/video FX developer, we'd love the massive memory space & 64 bit registers that Hammer brings. But as a [currently] Windows-only app, Linux-64 isn't helpful (except possibly for a few customers' render farms).
Our code is 64-bit clean, we have a working Itanium port, but we haven't sold a copy yet. We have customers who need multigigabytes of RAM & the speed of an Athlon to process it all, yet don't have the spare kilobux to justify dedicating a dual Itanium to a single app (it's all but useless for 32 bit apps at Winzip level & up).
So... rumours, anyone? Hard facts? Tidbits, gossip, insider info?
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
When you start doing file sharing by the gigs, and yes you will with a fast machine and you want to handle those files, you'll have problems when your machine can only handle certain file sizes.
More bits also means programs can do stuff like encode big files faster.
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Well the normal could do fine with a pentium 200 and 64 megs of ram.
64bit is for the power user, people who want gigs of ram, huge harddrives, people who trade media like dvd movies, who edit movies, who play games, who run alot of programs at the same time, or who just want more speed, they want state of the art.
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Blame the programmer or blame the motherboard?
The speed of your ram is the problem, the harddrive wont grind iff you have gigs of ram and you are using a scsi raid system unless your ram is just slow.
so if your system is fast, why is netscape slow ? Fact is its not a good example of a slow program, nautilus is a good example of a slow program.
Little has changed because theres a monopoly,
Things wont change unless you make changes, join the open source movement and develop something new.
I'll tell you how i'd use the CPU, automation, AI, and stuff like that to make my computer do self healing,to make it solve problems, to the point where i can tell it to find information on say, star trek episode 10 and it automatically opens netscape in the backround runs a few search algorithms and looks for information for my research.
This could be done using an agent.
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yeah, right. Just like the K-6
sure, our processor supports it. No, noone ever made a chip set, though . .
hawk
>>Not many of us need to address more than 4 GB of memory.
Three years ago, I thought I was partially insane for getting a laptop with 128 MB of RAM. Turns out my insanity was a good thing.
Today, I'm thinking I'm partially insane for getting a machine with 1 GB of RAM. I'll undoubtedly be congratulating myself for my foresight in a couple years when Windows ZZ requires that much to operate.
It doesn't matter whether people need it or not. In a few years AMD will be making only 64-bit CPUs, so people will buy them and run them in 32-bit mode.
A short list of desktop applications that could reasonably use multi-gigabytes of RAM. These are all arguably "high-end" applications, but that goes with the territory:
1. Non-linear video & film editing:
Current video editing software can work from and to disk, but availability of more RAM will make it easier to do more sophisticated effects in real time.
2. Genome sequence analysis
Okay, not very many people will be doing this, but it IS a growing field, and people are doing the work on desktiop machines now (albeit slowly).
3. Modelling / CAD
You can never have too much memory in a CAD workstation.
4. Software development
Again, you can never have too much memory. More memory enables more agressive optimization, as well as supporting more productivity features in the IDE (like full source indexing). I have used toolsets that need 2+ GB of RAM to compile a relatively simple program (they swap now, of course).
So, probably not for Microsoft Word '03, but there are definitely applications for 64-bit computing out there other than servers.
-Mark
Uhh, dude... You have no clue. Look into the Hammer a bit. The main point (more so than the 64bit stuff IMHO) is that it can do glueless SMP. I.E. no special chipsets need for =or 8 procs.
Oh yeah like a specfp2000 of 827 for the Sunblade model 2050 vs a specfp2000 of 802 for a P4 2.2Ghz Dell Precision workstation. Note that the sparc cpu is running at less than half the speed of the p4.
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At present a pally (Athlon XP) needs MB support for good thermal protection. We will see what the tbread (.13um Athlon) needs. The hammer was designed from the start as a server chip so really nice thermal protection will most likely be there (rumor has it a heat spreader like the K6's or P4's will be present).
It's not just a simple matter for Intel to increase the Itanium's x86 performance. The reason it runs so slow is because it uses an emulation layer for x86 which is always going to be dog slow, the only way intel could fix it would be to do a major (as in almost complete) redesign. Hammer on the other hand can exicute x86 in hardware since it's 64-bit instruction set is a superset of x86. Itanium will likely never see the desktop, instead Intel will fork off another chip line for the consumer/workstation market (like the Pentium/Xeon lines today).
Gotta lotta AMD chips around this place, including some as dual in 2u servers. No problem with any of them. Most of them are grinding 100% load at 40->45C. I am afraid that you are a victum of Intel fud.
Btw, the XP and MP line implements a thermal diode. Your mobo can throttle or shutdown the same way the P4 does if you want, but if you are at all intelligent on your case design, etc. you will never have to do that. Many of the bioses today implement a shutdown temperature driven off the termistor (ECS for one makes mobos that do this).
I have never seen a fan melt off a heatsink. Can't quite imagine how he managed that one.
How sad it is that by the time MS got their consumer operating system completly out of 16 bit land that 64 bit consumer computers are coming into play. How long will it be before their consumer OS is 64 bit? Another 8 years?
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As we go over 2GHz, and from 32 to 64 bit, bus speed is going up (good), memory seems to be creeping up on speed (RAM that is)....
But what about hard drive access speeds? They don't seem to be getting faster at the same rate as everything else. And, the only think I seem to ever be "waiting" for using my 32bit 1Ghz system is reading something from the hard drive.
This has got to be one of the most UNinformed entries on /. in a LONG time. I wonder if it's an Intel employee being directed by his FUDmaster?
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'640K^H^H^H^H 4 gigs is more memory than anyone will ever need.'
-Erik
I've had a machine with 1.5GB of ram for over 6 months now. I got my first new pc in dec 93, it was a 486-sx25 with 8MB ram. This is ~96 months or 5.3333 doublings given an 18 month doubling period, so in theory I should have 1.25GB by now. I think that moores law is not going to slow down any time soon (at least 5 years) so we have ~3 years before natural progression gets us past the 32 bit limit.
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When Windows and Hammer get together.......
And yes, I thought your pun was funny.
Anandtech has posted an article with lots of information and pictures Right here.
1) The numbers you quote are "peak"numbers, obtained by optimizing for the particular test being run. The "baseline" numbers are probably a better approximation to what you'll see in real world use. Here, the story is reversed: The Dell scores 779 vs. the Sun's 701.
2) SPECFP? What about integer performance, which is more important for most applications. On SPECINT2000, the Dell whips the SunBlade both in baseline (790 vs. 537) and peak (811 vs. 610) performance measurements.
3) How about price/performance? I can't find any mention of the Sun Blade 2050 on Sun's site. However, the 900 MHz Sun Blade 1000 (which is slower than the 2050) goes for $11,000. I can get the Dell with similar amounts of memory and HD space for $2500.
4) How does the Sparc's better performance / clock make it a better CPU? Is there some intrinsic value to clock cycles that I don't know about?
Look, I think there are good reasons in some cases to buy Suns over commodity Intel hardware. And there's probably a good argument to be made that these benchmarks don't correspond well to any real world performance, anyways. But you're just fooling yourself if you think that Sun beats out Intel when it comes to raw performance as measured by benchmarks.
.18^2 / .13^2 = 1.91 means that AMD are producing chips at approximately double cost compared to .13 technology, which Intel is now using in their Northwood P4s. Expect AMD to be just holding the ground they've gained until they can make their own transition, it just doesn't make business sense to start the price war now.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I believe the hammer will ship. I'll believe in SMP hammer when a vendor demonstrates one . .
besides, it was a tongue-in-cheek wisecrack.
hawk
Interesting. Doesn't really show Win64 support, but at least they've heard of AMD ;-)
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
It is all stored on disks. That is going to have to change or something. Disks are a mechanical device and are not going to scale.
And if you had 10GB of RAM, how often would you have to read or write something to disk? Almost never. Your "permanent storage" just becomes a back-up in case power fails, and the whole thing just runs from RAM. Disks are never going to be nearly as fast as RAM (they're each optimized in different directions). The best way to improve I/O performance in a computer system is simply to not do any I/O
-Mark
Programmers dont want bloated code, users of the program want big powerful apps. Thats why we have photoshops and netscapes and the like.
With media based apps and media editing, and file sharing its just going to keep raising the bar.
As far as ram, ram speed and harddrive speed are two off the main bottlenecks of a PC, raise the speed of ram, and the speed of the harddrive, have about 16 megs of L2 cache, you'll have a fast computer if the ram is feeding data to the cpu at about 6gigs per second, the CPU displays to the screen instantly, everything would be instantanious, bloated code or not, programs the size of windows will load instantly hell your machine will boot instantly, add a 64bit cpu and you'll be able to edit huge files, add scsi raid and you'll have the transfer rates needed to handle it, and for file sharing on your fibre optic line downloadinng hundreds of gigs a week, your 10 terrabyte drive wont last very long.
Sure this PC may be a few years away, but this PC will be the average PC of a power user within 3 years.
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