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It's (Almost) Hammer Time
thelizman writes "C|Net is catching up on the buzz with AMD's Hammer line of processors. Of note in the article is how AMD demonstrated their 64-bit contender using Linux and Windows, instead of just Windows. In reality, Linux will likely have 64 bit applications more quickly than Microsoft, and will see use on this processor more readily than your average WinTel machine, so you know...like...it only makes sense."
...that AMD knows which way the Winblows...er, I mean...which way the wind blows.
Reminder: find a new sig
not comedians, taco...
MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
come with an ice pick? Cuz you're gonna need a solid block of ice to cool the damn thing. It IS an AMD, afterall.
The 64-bit x-86 hasn't been welcomed as warmly, primarily due to backward compatibility issues. Definitely having the source and being able to recompile Linux apps will give the Linux folks a jump out the gate for 64-bit apps.
:)
In general, I doubt strongly this is a AMD vs Intel issue, either. This is a Windows (and their legacy users) vs Linux (and their overly prideful users that must find every method to berate windows).
You can't touch this!
Talisman
"Study your math, kids. Key to the universe." -The Archangel Gabriel
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only versions of windows that I know of that are 64-bit are the 64-bit WinXP and maybe versions of NT (but those were probably for Alpha anyway), which are now outdated.
There are probably enough people like me that don't want to upgrade to WinXP just for 64-bit (I don't like lots of things about XP, but thats my opinion). So it would seem that Linux with Cross-platform portability (hence, x86-64) will have a better chance at propagating (spelling?) itself in to this market faster than windows.
Just my opinions, not to be taken as fact.
yeah, i've been waiting for this for a loooong time. god knows my next cad machine will be a dual sledgehammer. btw, sledgehammer is the multiprocessor one right? and the clawhammer is the single?
I belong to the ______ generation.
Ever notice, that once you break away from the WinTel monopolies... things just progress differently? I don't personally use Linux. I haven't had the time to sit down and really get into it. That doesn't mean that I don't like to see it gaining more run from hardware manufacturers and in the press. Competition always has, and always will be a good thing.
Not to mention, 64 bit processing on a desktop would be reason enough for me to quit putting it off!
Jason
He's totally creeping out the Great One, eh...
I do like the fact that AMD is planning on using "a smooth migration path to the 64-bit software of tomorrow", so we wont have to rewrite much of anything. Besides, I still like my old DOS games
LOTR: Elijah Wood is a munchkin asshat. Yes, asshat. LOL.
I don't do much 3D rendering other than some gaming action, and my multimedia is limited to playing some MP3s while I'm coding with vim. Are there any other compelling reasons for a 64-bit arch? I suppose I could load more data in registers, storing two 32-bits into one 64-bit register.... but i'm drawing a blank... someone help :)
The more you know, the less you understand.
I remember a couple years ago that OS X was going to be the next big thing with this or that feature, but no one had actually seen it. This went on for a couple years.
AMD's Hammer is the same way. We all wait with bated breath for the new processor to drop, but no one's seen it yet. It's surely not vapor because we know it's on its way, but how long do we need to wait? How far into the future should these things be announced.
Hammer has been announced far too long in the past to be of any interest these days.
Let's wait until it actually gets released and then discuss further.
...when will there be motherboards that support it?
---Windows 2000/XP stable? safe? secure? 5 lines of simple C code say otherwise!
Argh, is this going to add yet ANOTHER set of addressing modes? Now we will have:
mov ah, #1
mov ax, #1
mov eax, #1
mov eeax, #1
Seriously, I wonder how they have modified the register addressing field of the instructions to handle this.
Shouldn't we forget 64 bit and go straight for 256 bit processor? Studies show that 4 out of 5 dentist prefer 256 bit processors.
I'm not sure which is better journalism though... on one end, you're looking more professional by not having stupid 14-year-old-girl talk on the front page. On the other end, you're cutting up someone's quote!
I'd rather have it look nicer.
Berto
I sometimes keep my case open and once in a while i'll touch-test my T-bird 1200 and Slot Athlon 500 (from back in the day) to see if my temp monitor is lying to me. they aren't too hot...really...I don't get burned or anything. Well, unless i leave the fan off but Tom told us that already.
Who is this Anonymous Coward character, how does he post so much, and why is he always such a whore?
Kevin McGrath (AMD senior tech) gave a great presentation at Stanford on the Hammer and how AMD took on many design concepts of the X86-64 architecture. This was probably one of the more informative lectures I have seen on the topic. The video is long though http://murl.microsoft.com/videos/stanford/ee380b/0 00927_ee380_OnDemand_100_100K_320x240.htm
Saying Java is nice because it works on all OS's is like saying that anal sex is nice because it works on all genders.
would a 32-bit emulation mode be plausible on a 64-bit machine? I'm guessing it would be have to be an app at the OS level.
"a quote" -me
...and while we're at it, let's get a round of applause for another example of how well open source compliments the forward progress of technology. all i can say is i'm anxiously awaiting SMP boards for these badboys.
send in marky mark on your way out.
update comments set karma=-1, reason='offtopic' where sid=26315
AMD seemed for a while to be winning the price point war, getting to market at an extremely competitive cost for cutting edge hardware. According to my recent price-watching, however, this advantage seems to be diminishing, as Intel's lately been getting more competitive in their pricing in reaction to this. Maybe they're just going after the next buzzword in hopes of beating Intel at it's own game.
can you finish the lyrics? i had this tape when i was 9 years old and had made up my own lyrics, turns out they aren't even close to the real ones. i'm curious as to how it ends: here's what i remember.....
Or take to learn
whatcha gonna do when the mike is burned
the charts, legit
either work hard or you might as well quit
thats word and you know.....
can't touch this....
go with the flow
it is said
if you can't follow hammer you're better off dead
so wave your hands in the air
bust a few moves with your fingers in the air
move slide your rump
just for a minute let's all do the hump
hump hump hump hump
yahhhh........can't touch this.
I don't know what's more worrying.
That you actually took the time to learn that song.
Or that you still remember it.
I know I'm going to hell, I'm just trying to get good seats.
Sure AMD is better than Intel in terms of price, but was it wise of them to stay with old, clunky x86?
Pro: Maintain backwards compatibility -- irrelevant with Linux apps as long as the compiler is upgraded.
Con: You still have to deal with only 8 general registers and CISC
IA-64 just seems like a better ISA
You want 64-bits on the desktop for extended memory. As the memory makers push memory sizes higher and higher the reality of having GBs of memory for your machine is quickly becoming a reality. I was scared recently when I found an ad for a Best-Buy machine for $1000 with 512MB of RAM. Since traditional 32-bit computing only does up to 4 GB of memory without extensions that's where 64-bitness comes into play.
It also helps for file size issues as well as addressable partition size issues, all can now be done natively rather then as hacks.
The hammer line can handle 32-bit apps, even OS's I imagine. The problem with the itanic is that it doesn't.
No, Itanium can handle x86 applications as well.
The problem is the current IA-64 processors run x86 very, very slowly. I imagine Intel would simply improve the x86 performance before trying to attack the desktop. It's not that big a deal for the high end server market they're aiming for right now.
It's a nice idea. I wonder for how many programs it will work. I know one shouldn't but there are occasions when it's easier to write code that relies on integers overflowing in a certain way (and hence assumes they are a certain size). And what about C unions/structures where you assume you know the size of the various elements?
What other gotchas are there to look out for?
AMD: Takes an existing archetecture and extends it with an excellent talent pool of engineers that speak in 64 bit.
Intel: Buys its way out of a lawsuit for stealing 64bit microcode from the DEC Alpha, then buy's the Alpha from Compaq to discontinue it. Then create a brand new 64 bit chip using their own limited talent, while shoving the existing 64 bit platfrom into an early grave.
Does this make sence to anyone? Alpha's rock, and they have been 64 bit for years. There already was versions of Win2k, Linux and Unix in addition to major apps like SAP and Oracle tuned for the platform.
I think this is funny. It's a sarcastic declaration, and obviously not serious. Even if it was serious, modding the troll up only makes him look retarded and be a frustrated troll, that isn't all bad is it?
Who is this Anonymous Coward character, how does he post so much, and why is he always such a whore?
I was wondering if AMD has released a reference to the ISA for the Hammer architecture, because without knowing what it looks like, I have many, many questions.
For instance, will the hammer have a modern ISA, like the IA-64, i.e. general purpose registers, speculative execution, predicate bit, VLIW, or will it be an extension of the current x86 ISA,
If its the former, with x86 to Hammer translation at the instruction decode phase, AMD will be offering a useful solution: run your current apps now, and slowly replace them with the new version of them.
If its the latter, where the chip is just a 64-bit extension to the x86, it doesn't seem like they are offering much, just "hey, I have a 64bit CPU" bragging rights and can address more memory.
In either case, Linux users won't really gain much from supporting the old ISA: they'll choose the fastest hardware and type 'make'.
AMD will enjoy a short period of incredible success with Hammer, its 64-bit 0x86 architecture. Intel will see the success and immediately release its own 64-bit extension to the basic IA32 architecture. Both chips will be the foundation of commodity, ultra-low cost, servers.
These servers will annihilate Sun in the low-end to mid-range portion of the server market. These servers will gradually creep into the high-end of the server market, where machines having 32 or more processors dominate.
Sun has seen the writing on the wall. As a last desperate measure, Sun has announced that it too will sell Intel/AMD-powered servers running Linux more than 1 year after IBM has been successfully doing the same.
Just look at the performance data at SPEC and TPC . The x86 processors crush UltraSPARC III across a broad range of benchmarks.
x86-64, which is what AMD is shipping with Hammer *IS* a hybrid. It is a x86 processor with 64 bit instructions added on top of the 32 bit ones. Like Intel's extension of x86 from 8 bit to 16 and later 32 bitness. It allows backwards functionality, and forward extensibility through 64 bit applications that might need it. I think it's a much more intelligent solution as there are a lot of applications that don't need 64-bitness...
I remember the step from 16 to 32 bit was enormous. There were many benefits for everyday situations. 32 bit still seems pretty good right, which couldn't be said about Win3.1 at anytime. What will a 64 bit version of Windows offer to the average Wordprocessor user? The comment on the story claims that Linux will have 64 bit apps before Windows... what are the benefits to the majority of people of 64 bit apps? Not many of us need to address more than 4 GB of memory.
whoever makes a "too legit for 64-bit" joke next wins.
~jeff
Does every processor sold come with a free pair of parachute pants?
...1978
I wanna boot CP/M on it!!! I wanna boot CP/M on it!!! I wanna, I wanna, I wanna!!!
The comparison was with Linux running on 64-bit processors in general (including Intel) as opposed to a WinTel Machine (Windows on Intel x86-64). I don't think my wording is that awkward, is it?
Has anyone else noticed that the one-screen article about AMD's Hammer line of processors on C|Net is far shorter than C|Net's Intel Itanium article it links to?
The AMD article is a simple response to a press release. The Intel article is a prose editorial about the state of the industry and where Intel's new processors (might) fit in.
Tim Garthwaite mailto:tim@garthwaite.org
So x86 finally reaches 64-bit.
Welcome, folks. Mind you, having been using a 64-bit native OS on a 64-bit CPU for 3 years now (Solaris on UltraSPARC - of course, the UltraSPARC has been 64-bit for around 10 years now), I hope I'm not racing way ahead of you there...
Tell you what, do let me know when you can SMP 106+ of those beasts together, then we'll talk. Deal?
:-)
People should not be afraid of their governments - Governments should be afraid of their people.
ms
--
here comes the HAMMER
That was classic intercourse!
The PR is vague enough to be interpreted as "running a 64-bit version of Linux as well as [plain old 32 bit] Microsoft Windows". I've asked AMD flat out, and they will not commit to saying yes, Win64 will be coming to the Hammer party. MS certainly haven't mentioned it, AFAIK.
As a film/video FX developer, we'd love the massive memory space & 64 bit registers that Hammer brings. But as a [currently] Windows-only app, Linux-64 isn't helpful (except possibly for a few customers' render farms).
Our code is 64-bit clean, we have a working Itanium port, but we haven't sold a copy yet. We have customers who need multigigabytes of RAM & the speed of an Athlon to process it all, yet don't have the spare kilobux to justify dedicating a dual Itanium to a single app (it's all but useless for 32 bit apps at Winzip level & up).
So... rumours, anyone? Hard facts? Tidbits, gossip, insider info?
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
When you start doing file sharing by the gigs, and yes you will with a fast machine and you want to handle those files, you'll have problems when your machine can only handle certain file sizes.
More bits also means programs can do stuff like encode big files faster.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Well the normal could do fine with a pentium 200 and 64 megs of ram.
64bit is for the power user, people who want gigs of ram, huge harddrives, people who trade media like dvd movies, who edit movies, who play games, who run alot of programs at the same time, or who just want more speed, they want state of the art.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Blame the programmer or blame the motherboard?
The speed of your ram is the problem, the harddrive wont grind iff you have gigs of ram and you are using a scsi raid system unless your ram is just slow.
so if your system is fast, why is netscape slow ? Fact is its not a good example of a slow program, nautilus is a good example of a slow program.
Little has changed because theres a monopoly,
Things wont change unless you make changes, join the open source movement and develop something new.
I'll tell you how i'd use the CPU, automation, AI, and stuff like that to make my computer do self healing,to make it solve problems, to the point where i can tell it to find information on say, star trek episode 10 and it automatically opens netscape in the backround runs a few search algorithms and looks for information for my research.
This could be done using an agent.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
I would enjoy a 64 bit proc, but my question is how much heat will it produce? A friend of mine just bought a new AMD and the cooling fan melted off the heat sink and then not only the processor burned but also the new board. According to Toms Hardware AMD processors are more prone to burnt logic. See for yourself Will AMD have a better thermal protection? That is my worry, I don't want to fork over money just to have it go up in smoke.
Beowulf cluster of these!!!
har har har.
------
Remember: The Lord is watching you. Try to be entertaining.
Soon some open source projects will likely try to take advantage of the 64 bit archetechture. New applications will be needed; Compilers, Databases, etc.
How will we know the difference between the old applications and the new applications? Many people will need to keep their stable 32 bit apps alongside their new 64 bit apps. For instance, What will we call the replacement for gcc?
gcc64 ?
It doesn't matter whether people need it or not. In a few years AMD will be making only 64-bit CPUs, so people will buy them and run them in 32-bit mode.
A short list of desktop applications that could reasonably use multi-gigabytes of RAM. These are all arguably "high-end" applications, but that goes with the territory:
1. Non-linear video & film editing:
Current video editing software can work from and to disk, but availability of more RAM will make it easier to do more sophisticated effects in real time.
2. Genome sequence analysis
Okay, not very many people will be doing this, but it IS a growing field, and people are doing the work on desktiop machines now (albeit slowly).
3. Modelling / CAD
You can never have too much memory in a CAD workstation.
4. Software development
Again, you can never have too much memory. More memory enables more agressive optimization, as well as supporting more productivity features in the IDE (like full source indexing). I have used toolsets that need 2+ GB of RAM to compile a relatively simple program (they swap now, of course).
So, probably not for Microsoft Word '03, but there are definitely applications for 64-bit computing out there other than servers.
-Mark
Looks like that piece was simply written from a press release. ExtremeTech has a piece at here that talks about the Linux distro used (SuSE) and some of the details of the motherboard.
Maybe they should get Jim "The HAMMER" Shapiro to be the official spokesman for this.
Side note: I'm not sure if that commercial was shown nationally in the US. I used to catch it on Fox Rochester (the Fox affiliate carried by my canadian cable provider) all the time. Anyone who's seen the ads will however understand how Jim would be effective in selling, well, anything really.
Bah, you're just jealous because you couldn't think of a clever pun first! :-)
Seriously, man, don't get too excited about this. Lighten up! See? I'm back were I started, at 2 (because Karma>25, I guess), so all's well that ends well...though I am a bit hurt that you didn't think my pun was funny (I sure thought so).
BTW I use Linux and Windows daily...
Reminder: find a new sig
How sad it is that by the time MS got their consumer operating system completly out of 16 bit land that 64 bit consumer computers are coming into play. How long will it be before their consumer OS is 64 bit? Another 8 years?
This Wiki Feeds You TV and Anime - vidwiki.org
Does everybody really need a 64 bit version of Office and IE? Doubt it...
The apps w/ the big 64 bit / Improved fp unit benifits aren't MS apps anyway. All we need in 64 bit is quake and the 3d programs.
1. Intel is also touting Linux on the Itanium. See www.intel.com/itanium. Notice that the supported OS's are "Enterprise UNIX, Linux and Windows", yes, in that order. WinTel is dead, long live WinTel.
./ would be screaming about vaporware. AMD not only says it will be there, they previewed it (first line of source article. Does anyone read those?)
2. If Microsoft claimed that they're planning to ship WinXP for AMD,
3. Finally, from ExtremeTech's article about the Hammer vs the Itanium: "Intel's IA-64 is a clean break, while AMD's Hammer is philosophically (some would say pathologically) another extension to the ages-old x86 architecture." Do you think AMD is extending x86 to protect all of those Linux apps that people depend upon? I don't think so. They want to make sure people can run AOL version 7.0 on their 64-bit machines.
4. This is still point three: A bumper sticker I saw in San Jose reads "Intel puts the backwards in backwards compatible." Give them a break. They're trying something new (while hedging their bets with Yamhill.) AMD is giving us the same old, same old.
As we go over 2GHz, and from 32 to 64 bit, bus speed is going up (good), memory seems to be creeping up on speed (RAM that is)....
But what about hard drive access speeds? They don't seem to be getting faster at the same rate as everything else. And, the only think I seem to ever be "waiting" for using my 32bit 1Ghz system is reading something from the hard drive.
Anti-bloat and pro-microsoft, very strange combination.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
'640K^H^H^H^H 4 gigs is more memory than anyone will ever need.'
-Erik
You don't really want that(same competition w/OSes). Tell you why - notice how long it takes to get decent stable software now, from any vendor, not just M$, and including Lameux(patches not properly included, software of generally poor quality feature wise and overall polish & usability) Multiply that by 2 or 3 times as long, with the same quality and I'll bet you'll come back crying for your monopolies
Internet is Great!!! junis
One day, we actually had 8 computers in a 40- computer lab down, because all of their fans had failed in the past few days, frying the boards. (Lesson to people in our purchasing dept: don't skimp on the fans!)
As far as fans melting off the heat sink, I've had that happen to me just once: this past week. I left my room Saturday night to go play euchre. Got back an hour later to find my computer off, and a smell of smoke in the air. Opened the case to find that the part of the fan that screws into the heatsink had melted and the fan had fallen off, ending up on top of my GeForce card.
I figure that after the fan melted off, the heat sink didn't do much good, the CPU overheated, and the motherboard fried. Another note of interest: the motherboard became so hot that I burned myself touching the edge of it.
I contacted AMD- they will replace my CPU and fan, due to warranty. They said that this has happened before, though it's rare. Unfortunately, they will not cover the damage they did to my board, and the board manufacturer won't either, as I bought it from a dealer they don't explicitly endorse. The dealer says it is the manufacturer's job to take care of defects, etc, so I am basically going through a bunch of hassle trying to get SOMEONE to cover the damage.
And if you're interested, the CPU is an XP 1700+ on an ECS K7S5A board.
All that to say, I know where this guy is coming from. I think it is a valid concern. And apparently AMD knows about this too. They have been working towards getting better, hopefully they will continue to improve. I go with the AMD chips because I like the better price and performance. If they continue to give me this much hassle, though, I'll consider switching to Intel...
When Windows and Hammer get together.......
And yes, I thought your pun was funny.
well, i think that Intel and AMD could help the opensource community streamline their software rather than the other way around, It is not in the chip makers interest to make modifications to this line of chips that would remove compatibility which snipping away instuctions would do, if you are going to change IA32 enough to make it incompatible you may as well move to a new architecture all together.
Software Freedom Day!.
Anandtech has posted an article with lots of information and pictures Right here.
.18^2 / .13^2 = 1.91 means that AMD are producing chips at approximately double cost compared to .13 technology, which Intel is now using in their Northwood P4s. Expect AMD to be just holding the ground they've gained until they can make their own transition, it just doesn't make business sense to start the price war now.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
What I could discern from your message is that you are confusing Hammer with a desktop PC processor. You probably didn't understand my original post, so I'll elaborate.
In order for AMD to compete to any extent with IA64, AMD is targetting Hammer to the workstation and server market. Very few people are going to "upgrade for the speed benefits". Even though it's AMD, the price will be way too high for the home PC market. AMD is looking to increase its margins by entering the workstation and server market with Hammer, so it would defeat their purpose to target the home PC market with this platform.
With that in mind, I would offer that M$ is desparately trying to displace Unix in heavy computing environments and even moreso displace Linux and Apache in the server space. To do this, they need to attack Linux on all fronts. And if you recognize that AMD will consume more than a negligible portion of the marketplace (which is definitely arguable at this point since nobody can predict what will turn out) and you assume that M$ will not yield any of their marketshare to Linux, then you could conclude that AMDs active support of Linux forces M$ to support win64 on the Hammer platform.
Interesting. Doesn't really show Win64 support, but at least they've heard of AMD ;-)
Why would anyone engrave "Elbereth"?
saw some more stories on this subject.
Tom's Hardware has a story about there visit to AMD and the demo they got. They even got to take pictures, but unfortunately were not allowed to reboot to view BIOS messages.
The Register has an article that covers the same basic turf as the c|net article mentioned at the top. maybe slightly more in depth.
and of course, everyone around here seems to love to loathe ZDnet these days.
in the pictures at tom's it looks like this thing has a pretty honkin' heat sink. i wonder how much the silicon-on-insulator process used to make these things reduces heat and power consumption.
The thought of what these beauties could do just makes me feel all warm inside. i hope they live up to my expectations.
you probably shouldn't have read this.
It is all stored on disks. That is going to have to change or something. Disks are a mechanical device and are not going to scale.
And if you had 10GB of RAM, how often would you have to read or write something to disk? Almost never. Your "permanent storage" just becomes a back-up in case power fails, and the whole thing just runs from RAM. Disks are never going to be nearly as fast as RAM (they're each optimized in different directions). The best way to improve I/O performance in a computer system is simply to not do any I/O
-Mark
The fact that they showed them off with Linux isn't nearly as entertaining as the fact that they were showing them off just a few blocks from the Intel Developer Forum.
AMD: Hey Intel..
Intel: Yes?
AMD: EAT ME!
:)
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
Programmers dont want bloated code, users of the program want big powerful apps. Thats why we have photoshops and netscapes and the like.
With media based apps and media editing, and file sharing its just going to keep raising the bar.
As far as ram, ram speed and harddrive speed are two off the main bottlenecks of a PC, raise the speed of ram, and the speed of the harddrive, have about 16 megs of L2 cache, you'll have a fast computer if the ram is feeding data to the cpu at about 6gigs per second, the CPU displays to the screen instantly, everything would be instantanious, bloated code or not, programs the size of windows will load instantly hell your machine will boot instantly, add a 64bit cpu and you'll be able to edit huge files, add scsi raid and you'll have the transfer rates needed to handle it, and for file sharing on your fibre optic line downloadinng hundreds of gigs a week, your 10 terrabyte drive wont last very long.
Sure this PC may be a few years away, but this PC will be the average PC of a power user within 3 years.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac