Garmin To Marry GPS with FRS/GMRS

zornorph writes "Garmin is set to come out with the Garmin RINO in June, which integrates FRS and GMRS radio with a GPS unit, which will give it up to a 5 mile range of communication. Garmin has a unique twist though, to quote their site: "What really separates the Rino from the rest of the FRS herd is the ability to "beam" your exact location to another Rino user within a two-mile range using the FRS spectrum." However, there are concerns about the implementation of this "beaming", as it causes interference with GMRS users."

Comments

FCC No no

[Anonymous Coward]

Generally its not a good idea for a company to screw wtih the FCC's carefully regulated spectrum. I'd image Garmin would get in a lot of trouble if they interfered with any other band. But, because Garmin is a large company with lots of influence and most of the GMRS users are small potatoes by comparison I doubt the FCC will do anything other than urge them to be more careful about staying withing their bands.

Re:FCC No no

[Dun Malg]

Actually, Garmin has petitioned the FCC to be allowed to do this. A company ignores the FCC at great peril, since if they try to sell non-FCC approved transmitters, the feds will walk in and seize everything. Besides, it's quite easy to lobby for an amendment to the rules. All it takes is time and money.

Functionality

[Mattygfunk]

This looks good. They have clearly thought and researched the functionality well. Silent vibrate alert and long battery life are the kind of useability features that I associate with more mature products, and not a "first official model".

I will add the Garmin RINO to my list of iPod, mobile phone, pager, PDA, car keys, smokes, and wallet, that I have to remember when I leave my cube. Can anyone spare a pocket?

Re:Functionality

[zeth]

It should not be too dificult to make a single unit of the mobile phone, PDA and maybe wallet. The keys can be replaced with eletronic transmitters or something. Just an idea..

The smokes however could be quite difficult to integrate with the rest :)

Yay. Amateur radio has had this for years

[Stormgren]

And it's called APRS/Packet radio.

Which also can allow for messages and weather data.

And the associated packet TNCs can allow for low speed data, as one poster asked for.

gimminky location beaming

[cliche]

the location beaming seams slightly gimmiky. you could just as soon tell the person where you are(it is a radio after all.)

Re:gimminky location beaming

[zeth]

Well, I have to disagree with you there. Sure, for a "normal" person this is probably not very useful, but for me as a military guard this could be most helpful if I act as the onsite chief.

It would be extrmely valuable to know where everyone of your task-team are located.

Re:gimminky location beaming

[LinuxHam]

you could just as soon tell the person where you are

First, I wanted to reply "not if you don't know where you are." The first scenario I envisioned was of inexperienced hikers getting separated.

Hiker1: "Help! I fell and I twisted my ankle real bad!"
Hiker2: "Where are you? I can't hear you!"
Hiker1: "I see.. trees! Not just a few trees, but a LOT of trees! Oh, and there's some water way off through the trees!"

Now Hiker1 can xmit their position to their partner. And if their partner doesn't know NSEW, they can at least start to walk in circles and see how their movement affects their position reading.

But second, I wanted to see if anyone remembered a supergeek who built a pair of high tech boats and jackets that communicated position information over APRS. Each boat would show its passenger the distance and direction to the other boat. And while the boaters were on land, they could use an HT to xmit DTMF tones back to the boat. One command instructed the boat the calculate the distance and direction to the other boater (walking or not) and use voice synthesis to reply with the distance and direction details. I think when last I read about him (years ago) he was building the same functionality into bicycles.

My point being that distance and direction would have been a nice feature instead of or in addition to raw lat/long data.

Instead of a rhino..

[nukey56]

I think these would be far more versatile devices if instead of looking like a rhino horn, they implemented a bottle-opener.

"patent pending" and spectrum abuse

[markj02]

They claim a patent on this, yet another one of those bogus patents. Radio amateurs have been "beaming" around GPS positions and even tracking them on portable computers (on channels where data transmissions are permitted) for many years.

As for "interference", well, it's not radio interference people are talking about, it's the use of channels for data that were designated for voice services. I mean, why stop at transmitting 100bytes or so? If this use is permitted, why not run a wireless modem over it?

Altogether, both the patent and the abuse of voice spectrum for data services reflect poorly on Garmin.

Gee. electric leash for the children now..

[itsnotme]

Just what the parents need! an electric leash for the children! Imagine.. you're at disneyland and your parents tell you.. "Ok honey.. we're going to go relax.. here you go.. keep in touch with us" and then every 5 minutes they tell the kid to beam their location PRONTO to them.. so they know EXACTLY how far their scrawny ass is!

"Hey! Get away from that ride! you're too short for that ride!"

Re:Gee. electric leash for the children now..

[Chelloveck]

My wife is almost ready to drop huge amounts of money on a set of these for the family. "Popular Science" had a "What's New" blurb on them this month. That write-up made it sound like the units could be set to spontaneously transmit their positions periodically, and that they could draw a map of the other units' current positions relative to each other and to any other waypoints that have been set.

The appealing part of this is that we go camping once in a while, and have had the kids get "lost" (ie., out of sight) more than once. Nothing's worse than your wife going nuts because the 3yo has wandered off... If the kid's position can be plotted without the kid having to do anything, we're there! (ESPECIALLY if the radios come in a ruggedized version, maybe without the screen for the kids' units.)

While the integrated GPS may have been done before by HAMs, this is the first "for the masses" product that has done this. I still wonder how they're going to get around the data-over-FRS restrictions, though.

Audiovox Has A Similar Product

[north.coaster]

The Rhino is a very interesting new product, but it's certainly not unique. Check out this recently introduced product from Audiovox.

Another thing worth considering is that these radios are only available in the United States. They are GMRS radios (not FRS) and owners need to have a GMRS license from the FCC (cost $70).

/Don

data over FRS illegal

[aberson]

When I saw this radio first announced a few months ago I couldn't figure out how they'd get FCC approval - transmitting data via FRS IS illegal already, unless they can argue that it is a "tone to make contact" with another user. See this section of this FRS FAQ which references some law that i'm too lazy to look up

-adam
--------------
"I rule. -aron"

Re:data over FRS illegal

[josecanuc]

They got permission.

http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2000/10/18/1/#gar min

Those who do not study Amateur radio...

[wowbagger]

Those who do not study Amateur radio are doomed to reinvent it.

We've had this "location beaming" capability for some time - it's called
APRS (Automatic Position Reporting System).

We've also had interference problems, a**holes on the bands, and repeaters causing interference. That's why we have licenses and are held accountable by the FCC - so that if somebody starts doing this, they get hit with a $8000 fine.

Just look at Children's Band (CB) - one big heterodyne squeal from end to end. Why did this happen? Because the FCC allowed anybody to use CB without a license, and stopped enforcing the law there. Now Chicken Band is like reading at -1.

If they want to stop this, the FCC needs to enforce the law. Go after anybody causing interference, require radio manufacturers to show their nifty new features don't cause harm, etc.

Otherwise, FRS will be CB at a higher frequency.

(And personally, I'm glad there's a place for these morons to play that isn't where I am trying to communicate.)

(Of course, many BPOFs (brass pounding old farts) will say the same about me, since I am a DSNCT (dirty stinking no-code tech).)

Except that the FCC Does NOT enforce...

[Goldenhawk]

... its existing laws about regulated frequencies, and when it does, it does so selectively. I have a friend who lives in a huge planned housing development with acre-sized lots. Dave's neighbor runs a ham-style system with a huge antenna, and spends hours a day chatting with remote buddies. The interference from the system wreaks havoc on the entire neighborhood telephone, cable, and broadcast systems. Landline (even corded, not to mention cordless) telephones frequently are unusuable because of the interference. But despite repeated calls to the FCC from Dave and many of his neighbors, nothing is ever done. (Seems like a good use for some SEMTEX or a hand grenade.)

The point is, the FCC may have pretty strict laws about interference. And it may spent lots of bucks and time on Big Industry. But in my experience, the FCC has no interest in enforcing the laws for Mr. Small Guy - that is, unless Mr. Small Guy does something that gets Big Industry mad.

Re:Except that the FCC Does NOT enforce...

[per unit analyzer]

I don't know the specific's of Dave's situation, but in many cases the amateur radio operator is operating with the FCC regulations. Consumer devices are not protected from harmful interference from other devices and most consumer radio products have a sticker right on them that say so. Problem is most consumers buy poorly designed products and then hold the ham responsibilty for interference when it's really the manufacturer of their device who's at fault. But it's easier to put pressure on 'the radio nut' down the street rather than complain to the manufacturer of the poorly shielded product that already cost them $250.

As for cable, if the amatueur radio operator is getting into CATV, that means CATV is leaking and possibly interfering with other radio systems like public safety two-way and aircraft radio systems. The cable company should clean up their system or risk running afoul of the FCC. A properly operated CATV system will not suffer ingress from an amateur radio operator.

Telephone interference is in the same vein; if the ham's signal is getting into the phone network (as opposed to the neighbors' $9.95 phones) the telephone company is responsible for cleaning their plant up. However, chances are that the telephones themselves (even wireline) aren't properly shielded ...

Broadcast interference *may* be the responsibility of the ham to clean up, but again without knowing the specifics, it's hard to tell. Part of the problem may be that the ham is using ungodly amount of power when low power would do. Maybe if the ham turned down the power things would get cleaned up. Who knows? Has anyone tried working with the guy instead of just trying to make him go away?

A lot of folks would rather not work with the ham to understand what interference modes are present. Chances are they complain about interference but really have a problem with the huge monstrosity of an antenna in the back yard. It's not uncommon for neighbors of a ham with one of these huge antennas to be suffering all sorts of interference problems even when the ham is not operating. There are two sides to every story.

-z

Re:Except that the FCC Does NOT enforce...

[WolfWithoutAClause]

Sounds to me that Dave's equipment may well be working properly, and the other equipment isn't.

I used to sit next to a radio ham; he related how whenever anyone complained he would hand them a complaint form, they would send it off to the regulatory authority and the authority would investigate and they would deal with it- they would stick a non compliance sticker on the complainers equipment! That equipment is not SUPPOSED to be sensitive to Ham frequencies; it's a defect!

He also related how he was able to reboot somebodies computer remotely(!); and how their computer was radiating like a mad/bad thing all across the Ham bands. In the end he voluntarily shielded their computer and everyone was happier.

Re:Except that the FCC Does NOT enforce...

[phliar]

... runs a ham-style system with a huge antenna, and spends hours a day chatting with remote buddies. The interference from the system wreaks havoc on the entire neighborhood telephone, cable, and broadcast systems. ... But despite repeated calls to the FCC from Dave and many of his neighbors, nothing is ever done.

Do you (or this Dave) know for a fact that this guy is

1. a ham; and
2. is operating outside the assigned limits for amateur radio?

The interference could be coming from that new cell tower or that police station or...

Also, most consumer electronic gadgets are pieces of crap when it comes to selectivity and resistance to interference from signals outside their band.

Re:Explanation please?

[Dun Malg]

FRS stands for Family Radio Service and GMRS for General Mobile Radio Service. They are intended for casual users who don't want to go throught the trouble of getting a Ham Radio license. You can use FRS radios without any sort of license, and GMRS with a no-test, send-them-$20 license from the FCC.

This would be very useful

[Orangedog_on_crack]

for Lojack type applications. Stuff one inside the dash or in a fender and connect to be powered by cars electrical system in case the battery runs down. If your car gets stolen you can track it down. In Lojack systems, only the police have access to this info and will deal with it "when they get around to it." Also makes it easy to tail a spouse susspected of cheating or making sure that if they kids borrow the car, they really are just going to the library.

Re:This would be very useful

[LinuxHam]

I have no idea how Lojack works, but I doubt it uses GPS

You're right it doesn't use GPS. It just broadcasts its serial number as data when activated. The controllers in the police cars use direction finding to show direction and signal strength, as well as the serial number of the unit it is receiving. The police cars equipped for tracking LoJack can be easily spotted with the four 6-inch antennas arranged in a square on the roof behind the light rack. By comparing the signal strength at each antenna, the controller in the car can determine what direction the signal is coming from.

I used to monitor LoJack's xmit freq in my car until the time I was sitting at a red light near Elizabeth, NJ when, as best I could tell, a car emitting a LoJack signal pulled up alongside, full of ne'er-do-wells. I've never listened since. :)

Garmin To Marry GPS with FRS/GMRS

[Aexia]

Does his wife know? And isn't polygamy illegal anyways?

Re:Explanation please? More into!

[Technician]

Family Radio Service and General Mobile Radio Service share the first 7 channels. Channel 8 on FRS is not the same channel as GMRS channle 8. One of the GMRS channels is designatated as an emergency channel (Ch 10 I think.. don't slam me if I'm wrong here.) FRS radios are very limited in power and have a typical range of up to 2 miles with a maximum half watt power with a self contained antenna. (No roof or tower antennas permitted) GMRS radios use more power for up to 5 mile range and they can use a repeater which FRS may not.

Garmin to Marry ESR with FSF/RMS?

[Dr. Awktagon]

Congratulations to the lucky couple! I also hope this proves to be a boon to both Open Source and Free Software.

(..must learn to read /. headlines a little s.l.o.w.e.r..)