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Loki Aftermath Looks Bad
einer writes "Things look mighty bad for Loki employees. From this article it appears that some of them haven't seen a paycheck since late 2000. Perhaps the most telling part of the article is contained in a parenthetical near the bottom of the page: "A single employee is listed in creditor filings as being owed almost $350,000 in unpaid salary and in expenses the company incurred using the employee's credit card."" there's a lot of not-so-happy-stuff in this article.
Could this employee not file a dispute with his or her credit card issuer? Or is there a 'statute of limitations' of sorts in typical card-issuer fine print?
i am a soviet space shuttle
do you STOP working there and demand some money? In my opinion, about 1 month of not being paid would be the end. Anyone who works longer than that without pay is a sucker, and i have no remorse if they get taken to the cleaners.
"i can never say no to anyone but you"
I think. Or maybe 30. Still. The company used his credit card? I think he might want to consider criminal theft charges against the principles. Or would it have been considered a loan?
Best Slashdot Co
Where I come from (Quebec), corporations can't claim bankrupcy protection for salaries: you can sue (personally) the board of directors of a company if you aren't paid your salary.
Don't these people have recourse ?
JP http://www.wearerite.com
Don't think that this is a mercurial or bad way to think. What would your employer have to say if you reneged on your half of the employment agreement, and then you had the nerve to demand six months of living expenses?
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
During that period, however, the Draekers took almost $92,000 out of the company, according to court filings; in counter filings, Loki claimed that the funds went chiefly to pay employees, though it did note that Scott Draeker was paid $46,504 in salary during the period from January 15 to July 31, 2001, with Kayt Draeker receiving $18,643.52 during that time; the company paid medial insurance premiums for both during that period.
And it's this sort of thing, boys and girls, that causes me to never trust management. The real shame is that you've got employees who are going without their pay, ostensibly because of loyalty to the company, and then getting shafted in the end.
Moral of the story: When the company asks if they can stop paying you, don't agree to let them use your credit card.
Jesus fucking christ. As cool as the project is, don't these people have any common sense? You don't get paid for a year, you jump ship. I'd be gone after 2 bounced [or not received] paychecks. The market is shitty, but I'm sure that someone could hire them. Of course management got paid, this was a friggin sweatshop.
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I had always wanted to consider Loki one of the "good guy underdogs". A company to root for. I mean, c'mon. They helped bring Quake3 to Linux, how could you NOT like them? But then I read this:
Instead of sending them W-2 income tax forms, they were sent 1099s, meaning that they are left to pay taxes on income for which the company was already supposed to have -- but hadn't -- paid federal withholding.
The question here is, did Loki without the taxes/FICA, etc. out of the paychecks? If they withheld, didn't deposit it, and then sent out a 1099, then the company should immediately be investigated for tax evasion and any other criminal charges that are relavent. This is fraud, and the victims are the employees. If the taxes were NOT withheld, then this is a non-issue. Yes, it sucks having a large tax amount due all at one, but thats life.
Who wants to take bets that this gets publicized as FUD that Linux does not a viable company make?
Toodles D. Clown
Even if you are a paid employee, be cautious about receiving any type of compensation by check from your employer. Even bonuses and advances.
Undoubtedly, you will receive a 1099 at the end of the year, this is standard accounting practice (and the law [in the States] for the company writing the check)
You are left holding the bag on taxes, so make sure you account for any mileage or other costs associated with making that extra money.
Bottom line: companies are keeping records, you should be too.
Wow, I never thought about this scenario, I've been lucky enough to never be there. A lot of companies issue corporate American Express cards to their employees so they can charge company expenses such as airline tickets, small equipment and software, etc. The employee is supposed to then file an expense report and be reimbursed for those expenses. Regardless, the employee is responsible for paying the card balance.
In this case it sounds like the employee was royally screwed by this arrangement. It's also possible that they never got around to filing an expense report. A few years ago I worked with one guy who hadn't filed expense report for eight months and was owed a few thousand dollars; the company sent him a letter saying he had to file by the end of the year or they wouldn't reimburse him.
From the article:
"Founded by California intellectual property lawyer..."
Contrary to popular belief, coding is not all free blow-jobs and beer. Those things cost MONEY!
The key to not having your suppliers/employees leave at the first sign of trouble is having open accounting in your company. I'm run a small consulting firm - and had a cash crunch a few years ago, and *nobody* cared because all my books were open. Everything. Salary, expenses, capital items, AP, AR. Even contracts for all/upcoming jobs. Everything. If you looked at the books you could see that I just planned improperly - I ran out and got a personal loan, and all was well a month later.
The gratest thing about open books, is that you don't have to lie. And you can't fool yourself into thinking things are better than they are.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
Really it depends on how much you enjoy the job and how much you can afford to be without pay. If I really enjoyed my job, and could afford to do so, I could be convinced to stay a month or two if I thought the company was about to turn around.
:). If you enjoy the job enough, it's better than sitting at home.
Of course during that month or two some portion of my time at the office would probably be spent actively seeking another job. Somehow I don't think your boss can get to irritated if you take the afternoon off for an interview if you haven't been paid in a month
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
This is why you don't work for one if you have a mortgage to pay and three kids in college. Look at most start-ups and you see two types - the very young and the very rich.
At the risk of being flamed, I have to say this:
What do you think of darling Loki now??
Linux gamers flocked to these forums pleading with people -- even non-gamers -- to buy something from Loki so they could stay afloat. Hopefully this will show that blind loyalty to a platform (Linux, Windows, who cares? They're all OSes, not religions) is sometimes misguided. If I would have temporarily dropped my who-cares-about-games-on-Linux stance and bought something from Loki, I'm guessing I would have only been supporting the allegedly crooked Draeker clan instead of supporting the company.
Sorry, but supporting a friggin' IP lawyer like Draeker isn't my idea of money well spent. The best we can hope for at this point is that the Draekers carry all of the guilt (if it's proven they're guilty) without dragging down Linux. I would think that's possible. The guy sounds like the s**t that s**t scrapes off its shoes. Folks who run companies and end up screwing the folks that made their business work deserve whatever hell that's dished out for them.
Having talked with several employees that worked for Loki, I feel I can honestly say that several of them were terribly idealistic and sold on the idea that Linux had a bright future on the desktop. Not only that, but that Loki was at the forefront of capitalizing on that bright future and that happy days were just around the corner. For someone that has even a modicum of idealism and a love for Linux and the future of free software, this wasn't hard to believe. Just look at the timeline and you can see that in the first year, things looked amazingly positive. Several games published. Quake 3 Arena in tin boxes. UT also being published (albeit not by Loki) just added more credence to the idea that Linux and the idea of Linux gaming were coming of age quickly.
As has been said before, Loki did several things correctly. That is, if a company has to appeal to the Linux community, then they should follow Loki's lead. Contacts in IRC and on newsgroups. Good tech support. The whole crazy LokiHack idea. They were all great ideas and pulled the community into the SDURF (Scott Draeker Un-Reality Field). If you have ever visited these forums where Lokiites could be found, you would have found out how enthusiastic everyone was about what was going on. These people believed and were willing to be poor but doing what they loved to make it happen.
Unfortunately, Loki seems to have been terribly mismanaged. It is unwise to go into details, but suffice to say that it could not sustain itself with the leadership that it had. Look at the timeline again, and you can see when people started to give up and leave for real paying employment. Look at the frequency of games after the beginning of 2000. Look at the SMAC debacle. Look at the crap that was released at the end (i.e. Postal Plus). Sadly, some gave up later than others, and suffered even more for that sacrifice.
Sometimes a dream means more than money or even family. In the case of Loki, it appears that those dreams were sold and exploited, hurting both the talented people that ported the games and provided the support and the people in the Linux community that bought the products. On a larger scale, the image of Linux has been tarnished as well, and it will make it even harder to move on from this fall.
I yearn for you tragically
AT Tappman,
Chaplain, US Army
Where is my paycheck?
You don't need to see a paycheck.
I don't need to see a paycheck.
You don't need to be reimbursed for your credit card purchases.
I don't need to be reimbursed for my credit card purchses.
You can go back to your cubicle.
I can go back to my cubicle.
Move along.
Employee shuffles off.
I work for a big, blue company, and you can bet that the checks had better be VERY regular. Of course, they're a bit more well-heeled than just about everyone, but this isn't my hobby. It's a JOB. I enjoy it, but I sell my time to my employer so I can buy what I need to live.
Showing up to work even one day after having your paycheck not be there is crazy.
I've told my employees that if I ever miss a paycheck, they should quit immediately, regardless of what I say at the time. I tell them not to believe me if I say it will get better. I've never seen things get better for a company once they stop being able to make payroll. I don't suppose that the visual effects business is any different than any other business in that respect. Once you start digging a hole it becomes increasingly impossible to ever get out of it.
The problem is, that once a company starts foundering, the founders often begin to lose touch with reality and start making promises that they can't keep -- whether or not they know that is not really an issue. The hole is not only financial (although that's a big enough hurdle on its own) but it's also bad will, that is, the accumulated acrimony festering within the company.
thad
I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
This happened to me at a company I worked for in Texas - it was a very, very small company I worked at right after college. At first they slipped a paycheck or two and then made it up... but after a while they slipped more and more and eventually they were four months behind on paychecks.
How do you survive? Credit cards, the debt from which it takes you years to get rid of.
Why do you stay? It's pretty easy to say (as many here have) "I'd be gone that month!" The reality is that sometimes you really like what you do and don't want to leave the situation. Sometimes you might not have very good options for leaving like if you just bought a house or were just finishing college there and would loose a bunch of credit by moving. Sometimes (especially starting out) your feelings are that you want to be a loyal employee and not abandon a company at the first sign of trouble (an easy feeling to have when your company is small enough that you know the owners well). Sometimes you are just young and inexperienced and don't really know when is a good time to leave.
When I left I moved out of state, and since I was leaving for good I demanded they give me full back pay - which they actually did cough up. My condolences to these employees that may not see anything from this at all. Good luck and I hope you have better luck with your future employers!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Um, except that Loki's main products were closed-source conventionally-licensed games. Yes, they did release some libraries (e.g. SDL, OpenAL) under GPL. But those were just a building blocks for their main business: selling conventional, commercial software in exchange for money.
If OSS somehow does get tainted by the Loki story, then it really is dishonest FUD. Loki never had (or claimed to have, that I know of) an Open Source revenue model.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
This is probably the best thing that COULD come from this. With bankruptcy floating over his head, the CEO has basically only one choice. File for bankruptcy, divide up the assets (which includes the code) to his creditors (employees) and hope he doesn't go to jail. If the employees have the code, they may be able to get another startup going. Linux software can be successful in the marketplace, but you need to be careful how to manage it. What were they buying for $350K??? Sounds like a lot of Aeron chairs and BMWs to me. Budget yourself well and your business can succeed.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
Chris Beckenbach
By being nothing but open and honest about why employees are paid the amount they are paid. Start with clearly defined roles and responsibilities then add clearly defined performance metrics. It's almost self managing because everyone has an idea of what everyone else is supposed to be doing to earn what they are earning.
-- kwashiorkor --
Leaps in Logic
should not be confused with
Jumping to Conclusions.
Step One: Port Games to Linux ..
Step Two:
Step Three: Profit!
..There's a-dooin's a-transpirin'
But it doesn't surprise me. Some companies are slimy like that. Heck, it happened a couple of years ago to my wife.
Fortunately for us, the IRS has pretty stringent rules on who is and is not a contractor. If it's called into question, there's 20 Guidelines which the IRS uses to determine if a person is self-employed or an employee.
If you think you're an employee, but your employer dodges their own taxes by handing you a 1099, you can petition the IRS to look into it. Check out Form SS-8.
Ceci n'est pas une pipe.
I see Draeker was an IP lawyer. My prejudice against the breed is only comfirmed.
I'm old enough to remember when discussions on Slashdot were well informed.
I used to work for a technology consulting firm that worked solely with movie industry and law, with the board of directors made up of his lawyer frat brothers firm. Every year employees would go to Cannes in France or Sundance to work and help their clients from L.A. Well come mid-2000 something was obviously wrong with the company, the owner was quietly laying off people and reimbursement and pay checks would slowly come up late or show up the next pay period. Also, the owner who was once a happy, ambitious kind of guy, was getting bitter and quiet.
Regardless, some choose not to see the facts and kept on hoping things would get better and didnt want to loose their seniority they had built with the 3-5 years with this firm. Well Cannes was rolling around and some other festival thing in Italy as well. One my colleagues was asked to go and excitedly agreed. The owner, who always went, said he would meet him in Italy and then head off to France. Once there a per diem was renegged on, with owner citing that reimbursements would be made for any monies spent, since co-worker didnt believe it they decided to go cheap as possible. Checkout day and owner left a voicemail stating they had already started up to France and to meet there, not to worry about the hotel it was taken care of. As co-worker started to leave hotel security stopped them citing they needed to check out, co-worker thinking that just giving them room keys was not a big deal agreed. After getting to the counter the co-worker was told they needed to pay $7500.00 in hotel bills for 5 rooms, room service, and other amenities that the owner claimed was taken care of. Needless to say this co-worker did not have that kind of cash or credit limit on cards and ended up in an Italian jail. Luckily he had some family visiting in Sweden at the time and was able to get them to aid him in his time of need.
Upon returning he was able to get reimbursed after 30 days and immediately quit. And over 2000-2001 many lawsuits were brought against the owner and his company from employees, vendors, and IRS while he hid behind his corporate veil. Employees that were eventually never paid brought up lawsuits and went to the labor board. Problem is if someone is awarded a judgement it is the responsibility of the plaintiff to collect and of course this owner would not pay. So one has to go to court again and the cycle continues. Some could not handle legal costs and lawyers and dropped their cases, while others would have judges change their award from $2000.00 backpay to $17,000.00 for punishment. But again a futile effort if the business wouldnt pay $2000.00 why would they pay $17,000.00.
Ultimately the company folded, the company paid out some of the smaller judgements and settlements ignored the rest and folded. The owner losing his company and money decided to sue his clients! Some bigger studios and firms typically cost analyze a settlement and legal costs and he was able to make out with nice $50k checks here and there from larger multi million dollar firms/studios not wanting to be bothered, and with others that wanted to fight he would walk away.
Rumor has it that this scum has now started some 3 non-profit organizations and is starting to do well financially again, learning that non-profits have protection against the IRS.
Seems only the bad guy won on this one.
Something I learned the hard way: companies that ask for sacrifices like delayed paychecks almost invariably fail before any "reward" appears.
The cake is a pie
I can just hear the credit card company now:
So, you loaned large sums of money to an insolvent company that was named Loki, after the Norse God of Evil and Mischief? And they haven't paid you back? Who would have guessed?
How much more warning do people need?
When you got the card, you were probably asked to sign some paper. That paper was a contract. Did you read the contract? Did you keep a copy of it?
Always read what you sign. Also be willing to NOT sign it. You'd be impressed with what people ask you to sign. If they say things like "It's really meaningless" when you question something, then ask them to take out the 'meaningless' clause, and see what their reaction is.
If the contract you signed with Amex said that you were jointly (or singly) liable for your credit card, then you are the one on the hook. If it says that you are only responsible for misuse, then that's a diffferent issue.
It's also possible that the contract didn't hold you responsible, but Amex simply went after the easiest target -- but generally large companies like that tend to cover their ass with your hide.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.