Utah, the New Red Planet

tsornin writes "The Philadelphia Inquirer reports in this article that Mars Society crews have chosen Wayne County, Utah as an effective simulant for the Red Planet. Although Mars exploration is hardly a high priority on any government's list at the moment, Robert Zubrin and other Mars Society members hope that through their research in Wayne County and in the even more remote northern Canadian location, they can show world governments that a mission to Mars is viable."

Comments

Tux racer

[Anonymous Coward]

I cannot fucking understand why tux racer does not have an options menu that lets me pick the fucking resolution.

I mean, how long do you spend writing a game and forget about basic fucking options?

Yah, eventually I found the dot-file to configure it, but PLEASE, this is ridiculous.

Now my whole weekend is ruined cause I spent 3 hours looking for the tux racer config file. FUCK!!!

Re:Tux racer

[Pancake Lizard]

Play this game instead, it's much more fun

Get an X-Box!

[ringbarer]

You'll find the many days spent configuring an ancient server OS to play modern games is far more expensive than the initial outlay for a console that just lets you "plug" and "play"

Hell, get a Dreamcast. They're cheap enough these days. And even the WORST DC game is infinitely better than anything with the GPL slapped onto it.

Harry Balllz

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever seeeeeeen Harry Ballz?!
Or his friend LIIIIIck my crotch?!
No for now we all be together

First the monkeys

[Anonymous Coward]

Good, maybe they can launch some of those mormons into space.

I can understand why...

[Anonymous Coward]

It certainly makes sense to choose Utah to simulate a lifeless, barren desert of a planet. I've been there, once.

Re:I can understand why...

[Anne Thwacks]

Definitely lifeless, and cheaper and safer too.

Re:I can understand why...

[Anonymous Coward]

I was wondering if the Northern Territory of Australia, which incidentally includes the Red Centre, wouldn't have been a better test area.

Does anyone remember "Pathfinder"?

[rudy_wayne]

These guys have watched too much sci-fi.

"...they can show world governments that a mission to Mars is viable."

Oh puh-leeze!!! Yeah right, that's exactly what we need ... spend a gazillion dollars on a manned mission to Mars so they can send back more picures of rocks and red dirt.

Sorry, been there, done that and bought the T-Shirt. There's nothing more to see here, please move along.

Re:Does anyone remember "Pathfinder"?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a fucking moron. But that figures; anybody with two first names as a full name is usually a moron.

Re:Does anyone remember "Pathfinder"?

[cybercuzco]

The goal of the Mars society is not to get a government handout. While they would be happy if a government decided that mars was a viable destination and began funding it, its not nescisary. If no government steps up, the mars society will get there eventually on donations and the hard work of its members. It may take a hundred years that way, but they will still get there.

Who is Xenu?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm going to tell you a story. Are you sitting comfortably? Right, then I'll begin.

Once upon a time (75 million years ago to be more precise) there was an alien galactic ruler named Xenu. Xenu was in charge of all the planets in this part of the galaxy including our own planet Earth, except in those days it was called Teegeeack.

Now Xenu had a problem. All of the 76 planets he controlled were overpopulated. Each planet had on average 178 billion people. He wanted to get rid of all the overpopulation so he had a plan.

Xenu took over complete control with the help of renegades to defeat the good people and the Loyal Officers. Then with the help of psychiatrists he called in billions of people for income tax inspections where they were instead given injections of alcohol and glycol mixed to paralyse them. Then they were put into space planes that looked exactly like DC8s (except they had rocket motors instead of propellers).

These DC8 space planes then flew to planet Earth where the paralysed people were stacked around the bases of volcanoes in their hundreds of billions. When they had finished stacking them around then H-bombs were lowered into the volcanoes. Xenu then detonated all the H-bombs at the same time and everyone was killed.

The story doesn't end there though. Since everyone has a soul (called a "thetan" in this story) then you have to trick souls into not coming back again. So while the hundreds of billions of souls were being blown around by the nuclear winds he had special electronic traps that caught all the souls in electronic beams (the electronic beams were sticky like fly-paper).

After he had captured all these souls he had them packed into boxes and taken to a few huge cinemas. There all the souls had to spend days watching special 3D motion pictures that told them what life should be like and many confusing things. In this film they were shown false pictures and told they were God, The Devil and Christ. In the story this process is called "implanting".

When the films ended and the souls left the cinema these souls started to stick together because since they had all seen the same film they thought they were the same people. They clustered in groups of a few thousand. Now because there were only a few living bodies left they stayed as clusters and inhabited these bodies.

As for Xenu, the Loyal Officers finally overthrew him and they locked him away in a mountain on one of the planets. He is kept in by a force-field powered by an eternal battery and Xenu is still alive today.

That is the end of the story. And so today everyone is full of these clusters of souls called "body thetans". And if we are to be a free soul then we have to remove all these "body thetans" and pay lots of money to do so. And the only reason people believe in God and Christ was because it was in the film their body thetans saw 75 million years ago.

Well what did you think of that story?

What? You thought it was a stupid story ?

Well so do we. However, this story is the core belief in the religion known as Scientology.* If people knew about this story then most people would never get involved in it. This story is told to you when you reach one of their secret levels called OT III. After that you are supposed to telepathically communicate with these body thetans to make them go away. You have to pay a lot of money to get to this level and do this (or you have to work very hard for the organisation on extremely low pay for many years).

We are telling you this story as a warning. If you become involved with Scientology then we would like you to do so with your eyes open and fully aware of the sort of material it contains.

Most of the Scientologists who work in their Dianetics* centres and so called "Churches" of Scientology do not know this story since they are not allowed to hear it until they reach the secret "upper" levels of Scientology. It may take them many years before they reach this level if they ever do. The ones who do know it are forced to keep it a secret and not tell it to those people who are joining Scientology.
Part of the first page of the secret OT III document in L. Ron Hubbard's own handwriting

Now you have read this you know their big secret. Don't let us put you off joining though.

* Dianetics and Scientology are trademarks of the Religious Technology Centre. This document is not connected with that organisation in any way.

Re:Who is Xenu?

[AnalogBoy]

Trying to get slashdot in trouble with scientology again?

Remember. These people are only slightly more crazy than your average Stallmanite. The chief difference being, they will kill you. :)

Re:Who is Xenu?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Xenu leaflet was written by Roland Rashleigh-Berry, a regular poster to the newsgroup alt.religion.scientology. He has assured people that the information in the leaflet is correct. He is an ex-Scientologist and although he never did the course to which the leaflet refers (he left in discust when he discovered the material) he is a scholar of the subject and has easy access to the confidential materials of the Church of Scientology and the materials that form the basis of the leaflet. Roland has listened to the tape "Assists" many times and this tape is the source of most of the material of the Xenu leaflet. The transcript of that tape is also here at Operation Clambake, and he has assured us all of its accuracy. Roland is well aware that the Xenu leaflet is a powerful weapon against the Church of Scientology and that attempts will be made at some future date to gain control of the Copyright of the leaflet in order to stifle its distribution. To that end he donated the Copyright irreversibly to the International public domain. He now no longer owns it nor can he ever claim exclusive ownership of it. The leaflet now belongs to everybody and can be copied freely without permission. His wish is that it be used to expose the Church of Scientology wherever they may be, hence his push to have the leaflet translated into as many languages as possible. Operation Clambake proudly presents links to the Xenu leaflet in all its translated versions.

Re:Who is Xenu?

[Roto-Rooter Man]

It might not be premeditated murder, but I think it's accurate to say that the average Stallmanite's stench is sometimes a deadly weapon.

Martians???

[Constrain_Me]

The goal, he said, is to simulate as closely as possible the working conditions that future Martians would have to endure.

So when we go to mars we become Martians???

Re:Martians???

[Anonymous Coward]

No, we become Mormon Missionaries.

Re:Martians???

[Marcus Brody]

So when we go to mars we become Martians???


No.

When you go to England, you do not suddenly become British. If you are born in Britain, or live there for some time and obtain resident status - then you are British.

Presumably, the same would apply for Mars. However, this would suggest some form of Martian Government/Organisation. Presumably, this would be a form of colloboration or partnership between all interested parties.

Therefore, if you were born on Mars, you could call yourself an "American Martian" or "Chinese Martian", depending on your originating country in the Martian Union. In much the same way that a German could call themselves a German European.

Re:Martians???

[rde]

Therefore, if you were born on Mars, you could call yourself an "American Martian" or "Chinese Martian", depending on your originating country in the Martian Union. In much the same way that a German could call themselves a German European.
A German would call himself a German. A gentleman of Chinese extraction born on Mars would probably call himself a Martian.
It's only americans that are obsessed with this ridiculous labelling.
Only an American (or, to use the latest appalling neologism, "USian") would say something along the lines of "I'm one quarter Chinese, one quarter Navajo and half Scottish" and do so with a straight face.

Sorry for sneering, but I've never known whether I should be irritated or amused by this ludicrous tendency. So I just sneer.

Re:Martians???

[Saeger]

I like to label myself Human first and foremost -- my tribe is 6.2 billion strong. :)

As soon as your start proudly identifying yourself with some smaller 'special' group -- be it national, religious, sexual, whatever -- the stage for conflict is set, especially when you make the group-think the focal point of your life.

--

Re:Martians???

[Anonymous Coward]

um, thats bullshit.

most countries with a large immigrant population (including UK and france), have a certain emphasis on cultural background - which sometimes manifests itself as national labels.

Re:Martians???

[rde]

I've never heard an immigrant - to Ireland or England - refer to themselves as (Irish|English)/$ETHNICITY. I know people who are Pakistani, and who are Indian, and even who are English. But my British-born colleages don't refer to themselves as English-Irishmen, my Hindi chums don't call themselves Indian-Irish, etc etc.

I'm not saying that people don't describe themselves according to ethnicity/origin/whatever; I'm stating that it isn't the artform it is in the US. Try describing yourself as one-sixteenth Tamil in any accent other than American, and watch people laugh.

Re:Martians???

[Anonymous Coward]

If we send some American INS people up there (and we should), then instant naturalization is possible...

Re:Martians???

[odaiwai]

>> The goal, he said, is to simulate as closely as
>> possible the working conditions that future
>> Martians would have to endure.

> So when we go to mars we become Martians???

Far worse that that, there's a chance of meeting Donny Osmond!

Aieee!

Re:Martians???

[matrix29]

No, we become Mormon Missionaries.

Yeah, Mormon Martian Missionaries. By the time everyone in the trip reaches Mars they'll all be married and pregnant. Which means they should pack for colonization because they'll have more mouths to feed if they start heading back. Hey, at least they'll have accurate genealogical records.

Re:Martians???

[vortexau]

No - John Carter didn't become a Martian; however his daughter did.
.

This just in

[rde]

Latest news:
The Utah Global Surveyor has detected alcohol in the state. However, it's locked up below the surface in ice and little umbrellas. It does bode well for future explorers, though.

But seriously, folks... if you haven't read Zubrin's The Case For Mars, do so. You'll be on the streets demanding Mars missions within minutes of finishing it.

Re:This just in

[seanellis]

if you haven't read Zubrin's The Case For Mars, do so. You'll be on the streets demanding Mars missions within minutes of finishing it.

The current Mars Rush has all the potential to become another Apollo program - siphon off all the money from everything else, in return for 2 weeks of TV coverage, some flag-waving, and then everyone goes back to watching reruns of Star Trek Voyager. Bye bye funding, bye bye Mars, direct or not. And bye bye the rest of the space program.

Here's a radical thought - long term space projects should be self-funding.

Mars is at the bottom of an inconveniently large gravity well, so its export potential is severely limited. Exports are essential for an economic entity which is not self-sufficient.

So, how about a real, useful goal for the space program? I propose that, rather than land a man on Mars (what for?) we resolve, by 2020, to deploy an automated factory on a near-Earth asteroid.

The factory should make something that would be useful in low Earth orbit (fuel, oxidiser, solar cells, whatever), and be capable of delivering those somethings back to Earth orbit for use. It should produce enough useful stuff to pay back its development and deployment costs well within its design lifetime.

The ideal "useful something" for our factory to make should really be other factories, but that's a little further down the line. An oxygen/water/methane refinery would be a good start.

Of course, this won't happen. Good ol' George wants a nice pretty picture of an American astronaut saluting a flag on Mars, not a working space infrastructure.

Oh well, now I duck and wait for the flames...

Re:This just in

[rde]

First of all, 2020 is, I think, an hopelessly optimistic date. The factory you're talking about would never be manned, and never be repaired. Seeing as you're doing this for the cash, you've got to design a system that won't need repair in a long time; the cost of a repair mission - automated or manned - would offset pretty much any chance of profit for a long time.

Then, of course, there's the problem with getting there, finding a suitable asteroid, avoiding collisions while parking, finding the right stuff to process, getting the processed materials back to Earth... the list goes ever on.

It's a good idea. But a lot of work needs to be done before; not just in terms of technology, but having that technology work for proctracted periods in hostile environments. What's needed is somewhere remote, but still within monkeywrenching distance if things do go wrong. And things will go wrong; what you're suggesting would be innovative in almost every respect.

So: where could we have a base that's remote, manned by the sort of people who'd need to work at maintaining these things, who would as part of their work be testing technology and processes that would be vital to a further understanding of what's necessary for an asteroid mining factory?

Final point: a Mars mission as outlined by Zubrin (and, increasingly, favoured by NASA) is to send a crew there for six months. That's no two-week propaganda mission.

Re:This just in

[seanellis]

you've got to design a system that won't need repair in a long time

Or, you design cheap enough that you don't care if some of them fail, and send more. I'm not advocating one mission, but a cluster. Perhaps to the same asteroid to save on launch costs.

a Mars mission as outlined by Zubrin (and, increasingly, favoured by NASA) is to send a crew there for six months. That's no two-week propaganda mission

Yes, but John Q Public is not going to be interested after a couple of weeks. And then the politicians lose interest. And then the budgets get cut. See what happened to Apollo 18, 19, 20. See what happened to Space Station Freedom, er.. Fred, er... Ed. See what happened to the Pluto mission in order to keep the Space Station running in order to save face.

The only way to ensure funding is to move it out of the control of the politicians, who don't care about space as anything other than a gosh-wow morale booster and flag-waving excercise.

I guess that title makes sense...

[Rhinobird]

I guess that title makes sense...

I mean, the moon is actually a soundstage in Nevada right?

Tourism?

[nizo]

This should do wonders for Wayne County tourism, who can now adopt the slogan:

Wayne County, only slightly more hospitable than the surface of Mars

Re:Tourism?

[Dinosaur Neil]

How about, Wayne County, like no place on Earth.

Re:Tourism?

[56ker]

How about Come to Wayne County, and see the Martians*

* Martians means people pretending to be Martians and by no means means real Martians

Re:Tourism?

[BWJones]

Actually, there is quite a bit to see in Wayne county including Capitol Reef National Park and Canyonlands which has some of the most beautiful rock formations and hiking in the west. Additionally, star gazing down there away from the lights of big cities can be truly impressive. Why this should be a good area to simulate Mars, I don't know. I can think of more remote places in Utah and Nevada to simulate living on the surface of Mars. After all, while beer can be pretty hard to find in Wayne county, there are a couple of bars in Loa and Hanksville. :-) (not everyone in Utah is a Mormon)

Seriously though, some of the remote desert locations in Utah and Nevada I used to go to as an undergraduate to look at stars and planets (in addition to strange airplanes) are much more remote requiring more planning and resources than excursions to anywhere in Wayne county.

Re:Tourism?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you've been probed as many times as Mars, you would be a red planet too.

Re:Tourism?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been through there and there was no mention of it last year (2001) when I was there. However, the hills west of Hankesville, on your way to Capitol Reef, are interesting. Moveover, Buffalo have been released a long time ago in the mountains south of town. I can't remember the biggest mountain in that area without a map.
What is interesting though is that Hankesville has a gas station that is built into the hillside. So it's different to walk thru a door into a hill to pay the gas bill.

_Race to Mars_

[Ravagin]

I found a book in my local library's used book sale room from 1988 titled The Race to Mars (I don't remember the authoring organization and sadly, the book is downstairs and I am far too lazy to get it at this point in the morning).

It talks about the progresss made, mostly Soviet, up to the date of publication, with lots of cool diagrams and photos.

What bugs me the most is the introduction, with phrases to the effect of "the Soviets intend to land a man on Mars by the end of the century" and "during the nineties, the Soviets will map and survey mars extensively in preparation for a manned mission."

And still nobody's there. But I guess it's okay, cause we have Utah....

Re:_Race to Mars_

[gl4ss]

well, they did run out of money as their society collapsed.. when you have to grow potatoes to live on your lab hours it tends to affect the results. if the cold war hadn't stopped and they would have had more resources to avoid the collapsing of society there might be enough pressure on both sides of the (ex)iron curtain to smash dollars on mars mission.. it's not the kinda thing goverments would put huge dollars on just for the research, but to show off to the other side, sure, put gazillion dollars on it(race to space..).

ROTFLMAO

[Ozan]

The Martian atmosphere, Zubrin says, is 95 percent carbon dioxide. By combining that with a relatively small amount of hydrogen brought from Earth, the plant would be churning out an ample supply of methane, CH4, and water, H20. The methane would serve as a propellant to get the ERV and the astronauts back home.

Methane as propellant, uh hu. I'd like to know where the hell Zubrin wants to get the oxygen to burn the methane.

Re:ROTFLMAO

[Ozan]

Not to mention that methane has a higher level of energy than carbon dioxide, making it neccessary for the plant to have large - and by large I mean huge - solar cells to get any useable form of energy to process the CO2 to methane. This is just ridiculous.

Re:ROTFLMAO

[Dinosaur Neil]

Actually, in his book (A Case for Mars) Dr. Zubrin plans on taking along a small nuclear plant (100 kWe) to provide the power needed, and the stoichiometry of producing methane from water and carbon dioxide yields two moles of O2 for every mole of methane produced...

Re:ROTFLMAO

[Anonymous Coward]

It is quit easy. The sabatier reactor prooduces Oxygen and methane out of hydrogen an CO2. methane is a good rocket fuel.
Here is a good article about insitu resource utilization:
http://www.marssociety.de/html/modul es.php?op=modl oad&name=Downloads&file=index&req=getit&lid=45

Re:ROTFLMAO

[Razor Sex]

Well, if the atmosphere is 95% C02, that means oxygen is the most abundant element in the Martian atmosphere.

Re:ROTFLMAO

[paul.dunne]

And you are prevented from checking the website or even (gasp!) reading the book by what, exactly?

Re:ROTFLMAO

[Ozan]

And you are prevented from checking the website or even (gasp!) reading the book by what, exactly?

I searched the website for about 5 minutes without finding a page where the mechanism is explained in detail. The one-and-only issue that prevents an affordable mars-mission is taking enough fuel with to bring the crew back.
Maybe my laughing was too impulsive, but the article did not explain the method without leaving out the main source of energy Zubrin wants to use to produce the methane making it physicaly impossible. I'm not familiar with the masses, but assuming that you need a quarter of the energy to leave mars gravity field than to leave the one of earth, by taking account of that the energy density of methane is lower than the of hydrogen used by the Saturn V Rocket, you still need a huge amount of fuel to be produced by a fully-automated-and-never-tested-under-mars-condit ions nuclear power plant.
The key question is if NASA is willing to build this equipment and bring it to mars when there is the high risk that it may not function beacuse of one tiny stupid error.

Re:ROTFLMAO

[Anonymous Coward]

The one-and-only issue that prevents an affordable mars-mission is taking enough fuel with to bring the crew back.

So make it a one-way mission. There will be plenty of volunteers.

Re:ROTFLMAO

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the book. 95% CO2. When you combine the Hydrogen with the Carbon, you get Oxygen..... the whole point is that you use a reactor or solar cells to "build" fuel (rather than burn fuel to make electricity).

I agree -- GPL is harmful

[October_30th]

The GPL is Harmful

One of the most heinous trends in the computing world today is the use of the GNU General Public License. In fact, the license is itself a virus. The whole of the problems with it stem from clause 2b, which reads:

You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License.

What this means is that if I'm working on a program, and I use even one function from a GPLed program, not only do I have to redistribute the program I took code from, but my entire project must now fall under the GPL and be released into the public domain.

Why is this bad? Isn't this just helping the coder of the original program to maintain control over his work and prevent it being abused to make someone else rich? No. That goal could be reached easily by only requiring that the user of the code release only that code as source along with the other program and requiring the user of the code to negotiate a licensing agreement with the original coder if the new program contained a significant amount of his code.

Truly "free" software doesn't force you to adopt a license and give up your rights to intellectual property. Forcing you to release all of your source code, in addition to the code you might have used, comes at a very high price, up to and including loss of patent rights. Giving up your intellectual property rights is an incredible price to pay. For this reason, large companies (the ones RMS fears will get rich off GPL software) avoid GPL code like the plague; they have the resources to develop in-house anything that GPLware might have given them.

So who gets hurt then? Why the very people RMS wants to protect of course. Small-time coders and low-budget operations- the poor if you will- who can't afford to spend the resources on developing their own code, are suckered into using GPL code in products. They are subsequently forced to give up the one thing that could have stopped their being low-budget: their intellectual property rights, now forfeited to the GPL virus.

Naturally this doesn't bother RMS. You see, RMS is a socialist at best, and a communist at worst. Look at some of his comments which reveal his true agenda:

If anything deserves a reward, it is social contribution. Creativity can be a social contribution, but only in so far as society is free to use the results. If programmers deserve to be rewarded for creating innovative programs, by the same token they deserve to be punished if they restrict the use of these programs...

The real reason programmers will not starve is that it will still be possible for them to get paid for programming; just not paid as much as now...

In the long run, making programs free is a step toward the post-scarcity world, where nobody will have to work very hard just to make a living. People will be free to devote themselves to activities that are fun, such as programming, after spending the necessary ten hours a week on required tasks such as legislation, family counseling, robot repair and asteroid prospecting. There will be no need to be able to make a living from programming.

So you see, RMS wants to make programming a profession that pays little monetary reward in exchange for social contribution instead. This is what the books call "socialism". Using a software license with a political agenda of this magnitude is unconscionable. Cooperation with RMS is impossible.

If you think I'm exaggerating about corporations avoiding the GPL like the plague because of loss of intellectual property, read the words of Terry Lambert:

To many in the commercial community, the GPL is poison. It represents the potential for dilution of intellectual property, including patents.

When the startup I work for was acquired by a large patent-owning company, we were required to purge our product of GPL'ed code so as to not dilute patents held by that corporation (the particular case in question was the requirement that we remove the SQUID proxy server). This was a non-negotiable deal breaker.

Other companies in our market niche, even though we were the market leader in both units and mindshare, were seen as more attractive by the purchasing company -- until it was revealed that they had incorporated code unacceptably licensed under the GPL, and not removable in the time to market window.

As things now stand, the purchasing company pays significant lip-service to Linux in the press; this is to obtain press, and is not in support of the GPL. If one wishes to use GPL'ed code for any purpose in company products, it must be completely severable, and it is required that you take a company educational course on use of the code; this mostly boils down to an 18 page presentation on how to treat GPL'ed code as if it were barely sub-critical nuclear waste. In addition, it is required that this code be obtained from internal company FTP server, rather than the Internet at large, so that it has been verified as not incorporating any company patents at the time it a snapshot is taken for the project for which you wish to use it.

What's even more amusing about the FSF Nazis is they proclaim constantly how evil Microsoft is, and how mean it was of them to give away Internet Explorer to destroy Netscape. Here's an ironic commentary about that from Brett Glass:

GPL considered harmful.... Yes, the explicit purpose of the GPL is to hurt programmers' livelihoods. See Richard Stallman's essay, "The GNU Manifesto," for a frank statement that this is the case. Mr. Stallman does not care whether the programmers harmed by the GPL are working for Microsoft or trying to eke out an honest living despite Microsoft; he wishes to put all of them out of business. Trouble is, it's much easier to hurt the little guy than it is to hurt Microsoft, so guess who suffers?

It is, in fact, ironic just how much the FSF's strategies resemble those of Microsoft.

Microsoft seeks to put other companies such as Netscape out of business by giving away free equivalents of every product they make. The Free Software Foundation seeks to put other companies out of business by giving away free equivalents of every products they make.

Bill Gates has all the money he wants but is motivated by a lust for power and control. Richard Stallman has all of the money he wants but is motivated by a lust for power and control.

Microsoft has a vast hoard of software whose development and licensing it controls. The FSF has an even larger hoard of software whose development and licensing it controls.

Meet the new boss -- same as the old boss.

So yes, the GPL is harmful. It forces its twisted political agenda upon others, robs individuals of their intellectual property, spreads itself like a virus, and causes the same kind of predatory behaviour that its proponents lament. It must be avoided at all cost.

Utah == Mars as desert == Moon?

[Seth Finkelstein]

Why not Utah == Mars? Hasn't the desert been used to simulate the Moon? I found this interesting reference (emphasis added):

http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/SP-4203/ ch14-3.htm

Stafford and Cernan did agree to include a test on Gemini IX to compare optics and radar by performing a rendezvous from above the target vehicle. In this exercise, the Agena would be over the Sahara Desert, which would simulate the lunar surface, and the crew would try to fly down to it, using both radar and optics

Sig: What Happened To The Censorware Project (censorware.org)

but how do they simulate..

[56ker]

different gravity conditions? - that's always intrigued me more than what patch of desert they use to simulate Mars.

Re:but how do they simulate..

[Dinosaur Neil]

Actually, the Mars Society is also sponsoring a seperate study called Translife that will involve putting mice in orbit, then spinning up their craft to simulate a 1/3 g environment and see what (if any) effects prolonged low-gravity exposure will have on small furry mammals. A later step will involve a larger orbit and more direct exposure to the sort of radiation levels that Mars-bound astronauts will encounter. The research stations (the first up in the Canadian Arctic, the second in Utah, with Europe and Australia in the works) are just intended to simulate the actual operational side of Mars exploration...

Re:but how do they simulate..

[AnalogBoy]

hmm. Maybe GRACE found a hole in earth's gravity field in Utah. Think it may have something to do with the high density of Mormon's?

Re:Utah == Mars as desert == Moon?

[October_30th]

I think this is nonsense.

It's like simulating something on a computer and then claiming that it's real, without conducting any experiments to confirm the validity of the model in the first place. Sadly, such "science" is published today even in high impact journals such as Phys. Rev. Lett.

I bet this nonsensical "Utah is a perfectly good model for Mars" study will end up in Science or Nature.

I find this offensive

[wackybrit]

Frankly, as an honorary Martian I find this offensive.

Is NASA trying to say that Mars can be compared to a dust bowl inhabited by stray dogs, unintelligent rednecks, Mormons and inbreeders?

I request that NASA moves this experiment to a place devoid of culture, such as Australia or Germany.

Re:I find THIS offensive

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't know Wayne county, Utah, was so diverse. So I guess you are saying that there are:

1) Rednecks, which if I'm not mistaken, come from the South. Why'd they pack up and move to Utah? For the alcohol? They aren't Southern Baptists are they? Those guys have no kind words for Mormonism.

2) Mormons. Goes without saying. There are some mormons in Utah. I imagine they are pleased as pie to have the "unintelligent rednecks" move in -- they might try to "convert" the rednecks to useful members of society -- if they'd just lay off the booze and frontyard junkyard collections.

3) Stray dogs. Martian-like environments are very stray-dog-friendly. Every third grader knows this.

4) Wacky psuedo-scientists obsessed with Mars.

5) Inbreeders. I don't know if this is seperate group from 1 and 2 (or even 3 & 4), but from your wording I picture some very interesting PTA meetings.

I've been to Utah, but from your description it sounds like Wayne County is really where the most happening stuff goes on. I'll check it out next time I drive through.

Let's not forget that wacko from the movie Contact -- wasn't his anti-space cult from some small town in Utah? I'd like to arrange a meeting between these guys.

And using New Jersey to simulate... what?

[Anonymous Coward]

This brings us to the next question: what other planets could we simulate here on Earth? For instance, what would New Jersey simulate?

Re:And using New Jersey to simulate... what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Uranus.

Yes, with a long "a" sound.

-AC Fever

Bob Zubrin can't paint the town red in Utah

[Ilan Volow]

I hope he understands that his simulation is BS; real astronauts on mars would never be able to survive without alcohol.

Re:Bob Zubrin can't paint the town red in Utah

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a hunch they'd bring along with them some pot seeds and grow their own and eventually flourish and give something to think about for the prohibition-infested home planet Earth.

Vodka on Mir

[October_30th]

I've always been curious as to whether the Soviet/Russian space program allowed vodka on Mir?

Re:Vodka on Mir

[Anonymous Coward]

officially no alcohol allowed. however, there was vodka stashed on board.

Re:Vodka on Mir

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course! They couldn't admit it, but the Soviet astronauts always had a stash of the good stuff put on board by the launch attendants, and caviar and swiss chocolates too. I think they drew the line at cigarettes though!

Mars like place on Earth

[quark2universe]

There would be areas of Antarctica that would be more like Mars than Utah with a constant hostile environment due to the extreme cold. You would only need a place not constantly covered in ice. Of course the abundantly rich oxygen and no radiation are other problems in simulating Mars here on Earth. Perhaps the best way to simulate Mars with be through some bio dome like structure with virtual reality.

The other big question of course is "Why". Why do this at all? Do people really think simulating and then visiting Mars is a possible step in permanent habitation? Our only chance of survival in THIS solar system is here on earth. And any planets revolving around other stars are too far away for us, right now. It's a disservice to get everyones hopes up for living on Mars.

Re:Mars like place on Earth

[Levitate]

"There would be areas of Antarctica that would be more like Mars than Utah with a constant hostile environment due to the extreme cold."

Close.... more like the Arctic..

The Mars society has been using Devon island in Canada's north for a couple of years.

more info at the Mars society homepage

Re:Mars like place on Earth

[bkrrrrr]

Parts of Hawaii are a damn lot like Mars....

bkr

Re: Mars like place on Earth

[Goonie]

There would be areas of Antarctica that would be more like Mars than Utah with a constant hostile environment due to the extreme cold.

True, Antarctica would probably have more appropriate mean temperatures, but inappropriate daylight patterns: in summer, near 24-hour days and in winter, 24-hour nights. Any Mars landing would presumably be reasonably close to the equator.

The other big question of course is "Why". Why do this at all? Do people really think simulating and then visiting Mars is a possible step in permanent habitation? Our only chance of survival in THIS solar system is here on earth. And any planets revolving around other stars are too far away for us, right now. It's a disservice to get everyones hopes up for living on Mars.

Even if we don't colonize Mars permanently, there are several reasons to go. Most compelling is to go search for life, or past life, and if we find it examine its structure. If we find it and discover it and Earth life evolved from the same source, that tells us that life can make interplanetary (at least) journeys. However, if we find it evolved independently it would suggest life has a pretty good chance of evolving wherever conditions were right. I think it would be worth going just for that purpose.

Secondly, you assert that it's impossible to colonise Mars. I would argue that we don't really know one way or the other at this point, and a manned mission (or two) is the only way to collect enough data to find out.

Re: Mars like place on Earth

[dgroskind]

...that tells us that life can make interplanetary (at least) journeys.

Ignoring for a moment the irony of making an interplanetary journey to determine if life can make an interplanetary journey, it would be an an expensive fact to determine at considerable risk to life and limb.

Is this fact worth the risk and expense? Given the finite amount of money for basic research, a trip to Mars would mean delaying research into other areas that are arguably more interesting.

...a manned mission (or two) is the only way to collect enough data to find out.

Considering the difficulty of keeping a tiny research station in operation in Antarctica, which is many times more hospitable than Mars, one can say with reasonable certainty that the cost of colonizing Mars is prohibitive. Generally, in science something must be at least theoretically possible before you attempt to prove it.

Re:Mars like place on Earth

[Anonymous Coward]

Our only chance of survival in THIS solar system is here on earth.

I guess you missed the article about the asteroid the other day.

Once a dinosaur killer comes along and ISN'T in a non-intersecting orbit a Lunar or Mars colony is going to seem to have been a very good idea.

*NO* manned missions to Mars

[Anonymous Coward]

Use the money to raise our politicians' salaries by 2000%. Maybe then they won't sell us out so often.

Planetary Chauvinism

[Saeger]

Trading one gravity well for another is a stupid thing to do (even assuming we had efficient space elevators built on both planets).

The best 'Case for Mars', IMO, is that it's a (hardly effective) motivator to get us off cradle Earth to secure our survival - people are just USED to living on planets and don't bother thinking outside the gravity well (box).

What we should be striving for is using the raw material in the asteroid belt to build large (rotating) space habitats which are much much much more efficient than the waste of space/material below your feet on Mars.

And hey, one day we'll probably disassemble Mars for its matter too -- we'll save Earth for last. :)

--

Re:Planetary Chauvinism

[Anonymous Coward]

baby steps. the moon is closer source of materials for anything we would want to build, including the first plants needed to smelt the ore into something usable. Mining is not easy.

Re:Planetary Chauvinism

[JMemmert]

I may be mistaken here, but as far as I remember, one of the great advantages of these gravity wells is that you can forget about the lead underwear in the morning...
If I remember correctly, you need about a foot of lead between you and outer space to insulate yourself from the radiation... or a gravity well...
Of course, the efficiency of travel from one planet to another is... well... let's say that there is no really efficient way... only more or less efficient variants, in that I concur.
So, space stations are a good idea... and new insulation against radiation will be found... eventually... but until then, I'd be very happy if people started developing technologies for more efficient space travel... I'm still waiting for someone to actually get to the asteroid belt...efficient habitats, which are able to deal with micro-asteroids in an adequate manner (i.e. not: "Ok guys, get some insulation and glue and start searching") and a host of other things that, eventially, will lead to usable space stations...

One more comment... I do remember something about the effects of even a short space flight on the ability to procreate...
It's been at least 10 years since I heard that, so please correct me, but I think I remember that the damage is significant after only a few hours in space...
In that case, I'll stick to that gravity well for a while longer...

Re:Planetary Chauvinism

[Digitalia]

A gravity well alone doth not a shield make. For a planet to possess sufficient shielding against radiation, it must have an adequately strong magnetosphere. Mars and the Moon, though both gravity wells, do not have magnetospheres.

Re:Planetary Chauvinism

[JMemmert]

I stand corrected... I did assume Mars had a magnetosphere and didn't distinguish that in my reply.
Here's some information that I should have researched before.

Re:Planetary Chauvinism

[Saeger]

Yeah, shielding against radiation is a problem, but by the time these habitats are able to be built cheaply I suspect the technology will also be able to solve this problem in one of two ways (that are better than simple mass shielding):

1) Magnetic shielding

2) No shielding; any damage to plants, animals, and structure could be repaired by virtue of the fact that everything is infested with "smart nanobots" - basically a artificial immune system for everything (which is also necessary to counter the threat of "terrorist nanobots" since good will outnumber evil :-).

--

Re:Planetary Chauvinism

[Anonymous Coward]

Good people outnumbered evil people on 9/11.

Re:Planetary Chauvinism

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish people would stop refering to "9/11". It is frigging annoying. It barely rates when it come to terrorist attacks around the world. The UN defines a terrorism as surpise attack on a civilian population. That give the top two places for terrorism to USA, with it's dropping of two nuclear bombs, killing hundreds of thousands of people in a very short period, and decimating a very large amount of land. The WTC doesn't compare. It wasn't even a large increase to an average days national death toll. In nature there is no such thing as good or evil, just the consequences of actions.

Re:Planetary Chauvinism

[subtillus]

a third possibility is being researched as we speak.
Dinococcus radiodurans is a bacteria than can take a REALLY big pounding to the genome, we're talking IMPRESSIVE DNA repair mechanisms. After a bombardment sufficient to kill a human about a hundred (or thousand i forget the figs) times over, it's DNA is left in shambles, but quickly, it stitches the whole thing back into order, working order.
how does it do this?
does it do this because it came from space originally and this is just vestigial biochemical event?

why even bother going to Mars before we know these "simple" things about our own planet?

Not very talkative bunch

[linzeal]

Their official forum is pretty low key considering the supposed membership. I wonder why?

Whoa!

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine a Beowulf cluster of thetans!

LESU OTENARI

[Genghis Troll]

Naroye sutines ciebie si lame dam fus woluf enetoy malevet. Adase esihic ogagah kine serose radili kid emabino. Wedonef rie ihorisi otat uvope sidima siey mihef aten. Odar tenod nemoru sa nireyu sit lam. Cekielas sonag lece adi rise carera. Meko ahofa mutamog teyaka. Naze losec nese ru tifiret. Surelig fer ili aton etohewad orucere hitohur. Co se eto opileda rodiexel begete sore ru sacalo.

Pudi ca muhiti vusora ba ne tinu acunigec belo? Limege leserif lexa me ugiriga? Rilipa ilogi pol tesiha ge siti maso icimot sat pefe. Ecip tewo de ocati gotuho! Olonin mapayuc ukopu koco icafu wu. Se ucasirie riecayic lemuho oxowa tuhed, te rico tebute tisat etazeni ra! Uselem ra anoxirik noyoro micasi lehofo. Uqe to ketad caca sal liwame, ronice alitoc jehi ate tig isecumic farofen cid nigut, omarinaw hiloreb tates. Benugi canet xehanes. Li rilariec li ceyu paf rise nuso hien tanihie refimec. Bolelag rarotiev toluben. Do erer hobido. Lesosa die sel namuta era pu re, nat bi lafige osefinam icetenep. Ipidil cab lel mutodu diepeden geciri amesile map. Tit me niriec modur ren.

Sehit nu cisa nelad. La ra ralires hobena asosural tim oretozien na nimatid; balip porut alereha talas, robo legon losotoc cisey ahomano oriru, menedo soser korose, ta lete danuvay. De elanini toseco mecesi onieco. Senid lierer lagirar ibieta wasikur.

Cegesa mu ciet. Xites imono polirec, sas odalat iesir paca gotali rilason. Teroc ira potebes.

Gatas repo lut. Igeto fe dorobon hemuro: Lohevo bev parero nibexol citon! Ixetetel idafoni ha denur tu hisinur eta cieconin lagu padid! Cielacas fevas cuke! Atano we pe purele ga citaru pa iham! Afis epu nafaren. Egibevep atinen ekibene ekeg irebafet onener nirimes rogace lu te; mahetoc pilie hem oteneser nulet ma; tenet linona safuco ne; fodenig tar ekiefo enaf gicuke pus laca lagog! Nesag oreben doge ewuc fot seva tevim fi! Igo sevo lom nonot te ni ge rod, pa co viteni nirah asu. Letier nego po ato. Gera na sicofo le ceceya osefo para.

Esunu re iesebenif olo: Ne ata saga ohiriki elepog oley denohes edolu hip pece! Si so tala yep. Cu cesidic onep de yodelo asulelap? Niha okidode arohiga sabopar yipisa luhipi tiegini rem nirop. Yeveg ogiesel lut tesod mim! Lo ra ozel yetin ter ohosod osopu tedur uni. Reg pi no ribopey ti. Ca desoset ievolesa wepi dem rineci teget di. Sa eres yin run. Esep fo ugat elo hunifan felo kudaluc siet calie. Hecomic etir ra yelola eri ya ameca; hape iriwenes gehay ric xakelip usehozer do lolalal roreg? Potin neso ca etola rud saroxa ta cogeris! Hel kutu asove niviera niyetot torisa dose so sieli. Rideren re itucatet siepom hapar. Yopehe atep ejomir utelira rube alemi rete osatami ironetot. Mo guhanep diem irodiwec. Necere owuf vale ilab pa ine evenin. Tu yisu se.

Nosi sienitey lecid iege satemer enase ican lawiyit bof cew. Mi geserie tiwesun idigag elie tose vasa sure. Peferies anuriba idelo dusawa alin silop sat, sadan lot alunecud nib nom riv rodimen! Can alelep neme derinen mebus gilahuq, ere rahal setowe! Arela tim le tayaru rada duserud ni. Tuce sanor fele cirerep cabiena. Ayocie macelo yi banebur arekamu acen gayo! Va utu tidon. Bavo nu asexire banot aropowut leb, totoc necip salan sid tone letigul yot banasey ile nite. Lalogan poc madon etono amedemem peleb iniboc iliet: Mesacer fakic siedet uripo me epebil eped uraboyi. Reripen le ebedine teliehe han sela no ra taluc.

Iferecit romebe lara te togasac owayoler. Eme qaho etoguso! Nones cined reco tosa pey nunuci epareram. Uren ohegerar retese ferolel nadatop. Eledot teciem tonicon popo ieki coc la. Sonirud bi mi dodu apecieg des isi. Ceta sec licini roniral. Log omamezen ro mosasex: Gosilo litame tibiges. Lemuget pide ru gawabe elodaxa rat nomila voce lah. Anotaw payeb merome ole. Penibo nelo uvi one men fet, qahetie ni pebanoc dohe tidabom naleris rili. Dima emiewita atopoye serop bi sovi. Rasonib atepodos icamelo aloh miride yanebet dibuwu telomi cepasie elon. Alesonur lelihuh bim rerabin tobigas nonot yiciec tuwage telafed.

Saluseg huri ha nahedan ecetocien namil etatusu esufa? Iyen ra elacu: La gupa holeb: Elino pom ciy linur ro toti reb cisag ebalesag posusip? Edagi fotazic setoc togage esehabieb lugo ipoyupo lirare tegomel. Cesi elere nin tapared seb ipe cef tanay. Eharovuc iserieniw se etev robieha li dafilaf to tidiesog ver: Ma sisi kom sa ila etosigo pib ma lefera! Ha ta egiet tip pirehiy nurasal lade.

Deg idifih terim! Sal te ecenipe. Mera ocesec canevel henecie dora oradet ric. Ditoro tereba erade xosalem codeko hiberu. Toc arelun nanite eka: Aro nowe sisorit sisador yetab. Dote ile cacayi coven widege bomon ejoxini icifinir cas. Deror pi bula eres ameba ret lun de. Noxinot ese dem lel gucec; asa nigec mepir amimeti yegice tem nepase inoh mana lagini! Nuxovin ruro sof litor nedera mahore iyinijod xave erisot. Tumelus tit nefipie. Etas lopena siyefe tipug otedoc yunayi voralet itanase. Citielon tosivar teticem paro sulareh etusa con ye. Rofat otacew emehiemeh serar tuciru itu hupoha: Tapu hafise ta ehet alu rieniep rieda letiwe atiemahed. Su himotod ner iparerip cesegec okicet? Le pes lidam cebeyer fanecu emat ahenic lidiric tova eyecas. Emezac reti mieho riel citemel bo irereb yici emahas sonig.

Re:LESU OTENARI

[October_30th]

Please, Please, tell me why the AMD Roadmap is not updated. AMD is much better than Intel. While people keep thinking that Intel is the best and in the websites people do not care about what the say about AMD and Intel, Intel will continue its bad way and will be the first.

Here in your page, there is a good example of the power of Intel. You do not update anymore the AMD side and keep putting the news for Intel, you can not tell that there is no news to put about AMD.

Re:LESU OTENARI

[Commienst]

Is that just jiberish, or an obscure language I never heard of?

Re:LESU OTENARI

[Anonymous Coward]

Amoonte najis cobar gentu. Agantis se moxir forwar!

Woo hoo - more rocks from Mars!

[Anonymous Coward]

They can't even make a moon colony. What makes them think we can even reach mars without going insane (2 year trip people). And don't tell me about theoretical engines and freezing people for 2 years. We should go to the moon, learn to live there, then learn how to go to-and-from the moon and earth with relative ease before we even suggest the notion of going to mars.

Re:Woo hoo - more rocks from Mars!

[Anonymous Coward]

What makes them think we can even reach mars without going insane (2 year trip people)

Just send me. I haven't left my apartment in 4 years.

Re:Woo hoo - more rocks from Mars!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi RMS, how u doin' ?

Priorities...

[Anonymous Coward]

Although Mars exploration is hardly a high priority on any government's list at the moment,

People is dying of hunger all over the world, boys, I know most of you are from USA so perhaps you are not aware of that, but it's a sad truth. It would be a good thing that your society collectively realize it and do something about actual priorities. It would be a good thing even for all of you.

Re:Priorities...

[Anonymous Coward]

most people who starve are either non-christian or non-white in which case there is no reason for us to care, it is not my fault that they are dieing.

the root of the problem

[Anonymous Coward]

is that the 'governments' have proven to be irrepresentative of what people want, and even more irrepresentative of the talent, skill and drive available to make events such as this happen. I hope the Mars society gets more support, but until people quit latching on to the putrified soured tit of the government, nothing will ever happen... except more probes lost and out of contact.

It is a classic problem of supply meeting demand were it not for the interference of 'well meaning' fools trying to 'help protect us from ourselves'.

BTW, what besides the coolness factor are the reasons for wanting to go to mars? I bet most here do not know them, but perhaps the majority here will gleefully parrot some recorded sound bite reasons (that is what sheep do, they don't reason in order to come to a conclusion, but rather justify their decision afterwards with illogical, inconsistent, hand picked 'facts')

Re:the root of the problem

[cappadocius]

...what besides the coolness factor are the reasons for wanting to go to mars?

This is the same community of people who hack consoles to put linux on them and use legos as web servers. Do you really think any of us need a reason besides the coolness factor.

Mars Society = cult

[Anonymous Coward]

Read their founding declaration and statement of purpose.

"We must go for the youth"? Puh-leaze. If the wealth of neat-o keen scientific advancements here on boring ol' Earth isn't enough to inspire young Billy to become a scientist, what makes them think a journey to Mars will? Sending advanced robots to Mars that have the ability to observe and communicate data 63 million miles back to Earth isn't enough to get little Sally interested in science? Well, little Sally's probably a dumbass that wouldn't amount to anything no matter what you did, then. Go waitress, Sally. Billy can be the cook. Spend that $450 billion (or whatever outrageous amount it would take to do a roundtrip manned mission to Mars) on killing terrorists and reducing the $6T national debt.

green...

[Ruliz Galaxor]

I always knew those Utiahns are green! They're just hiding in a human skin! Hmmz, and I thought Roswell was the place to be.

Re:green...

[Anne Thwacks]

Roswell is what happens when men from Utah refuse to stop and ask the way!

Re:green...

[BWJones]

Green Jello is now the official state food, so perhaps that says something. Mormons have long prided themselves on being different, and I am sure that some of them would love to be considered Martians as it (honestly) might explain some of the theology, but most recently with the Olympics here is SLC, they have gone on a major PR campaign to try and illustrate that they are not at all different from the rest of us.

All that aside, I for one would like to think that if there were any true Martians, they would have a more sophisticated, intellectually inquisitive and less main-stream white bread culture than we currently have in Utah.

Utah != Prohibition

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay. I've BEEN to Utah. It's not THAT bad. I mean, I've been to parts of the south that still have liquor laws that are more backwards than those in Utah.

Here's an interesting fact: there were more places to buy a drink at Utah's Winter Olympics than at Nagano and Lillihammer COMBINED.

No reason to send men to Mars

[Anonymous Coward]

Get rid of the income tax so these loonies will stop constantly trying to waste my money. Or at least let us taxpayers choose where our tax money goes. If enough loonies check the "[ ] IDIOTICALLY PREMATURE USELESS MANNED MISSION TO MARS - $450,000,000,000" box, well, hey, it gets done. But if more people happened to check "[ ] KILL TERRORISTS" or "[ ] REDUCE $6,000,000,000,000 DEFICIT" boxes, well, I guess the loonies would just have to try harder to convince everyone.

The Human Problem

[Alien54]

The major problems space travel consist of two elements, the thechnology, and the people.

Spending six months to a year or more in isloation, especially in a very small room no bigger than, and maybe smaller that a college dorm room, with only the food and entertainment you brought with you, can be very stressful.

Heck, for the nearest current equivalent look at antarctica, where they get snowed in for the winter, and thay have much larger facilities. While now they have email, etc, they are still pretty isolated, and start to get a little wacky after just the few months of social isolation. The culture starts to evolve and drift based on the unique events on the base.

It is sort of like a bunch of geeks working at a big company. The geeks form their own culture, and are somwhat isolatedfrom the main body of people, even when bumbing into a ton of people in the hall way. Who are the aliens there? the geeks or the working stiffs?

heck, you even see this in religion, those isolated communities off in the desert, etc.

Re:The Human Problem

[Skyshadow]

Spending six months to a year or more in isloation, especially in a very small room no bigger than, and maybe smaller that a college dorm room, with only the food and entertainment you brought with you, can be very stressful.

While I'm sure that it *can* be stressful, it's not as if this level of exploration is without historical prescident. Throughout history, exploration ships have spent months at sea with small crews.

Early caravels had crews of 6-8 people. Columbus' flag ship had a crew of 20. These aren't exactly the hundreds of friends you seem to want to bring along with you.

Plus, our modern-day explorers would be incredibly plugged-in compared with sailors on those old wooden ships. Sure, the scientists in Antarctica had email, but what makes you think the crew of a Mars expedition wouldn't?

Re:The Human Problem

[Anonymous Coward]

>the working stiffs

You arrogant asshole! What makes you think these people are 'stiffs' just because they are not consumed by some stupid, quasi-autistic tech fixation?

I conclude these 'stiffs' include your boss and the CEO right?

Re:The Human Problem

[Alien54]

the working stiffs You arrogant asshole! What makes you think these people are 'stiffs' just because they are not consumed by some stupid, quasi-autistic tech fixation? I conclude these 'stiffs' include your boss and the CEO right?

Which is the attitude I was critcizing, the Us vs Them attitude between technology haves and have nots.

This is very easily seen in comedy pages about tech support horror stories, Like Computer Stupidities. This is evidence of what happens when geek culture separates from the culture of those around it.

Note: in the USA "Working Stiffs" is a generic slang for people who work for a living, vs those born to money, and is a common enough term, and is not usually confused with the dead, except for moments of humor or irony.

People who recognize the term realize it is a term of respect.

I think I got it figured out

[Profane Motherfucker]

They wish to use Utah, and it's population of LDS, to simulate what life would be like on a planet with a hostile lifeform. I don't know what's more hostile to civilised life than 3.2 beer. Conversely, they are going to use Canada to simulate a planet with a polite, and peaceful lifeform.

Re:I think I got it figured out

[Anonymous Coward]

This post contains no profanity. What gives?

Re:I think I got it figured out

[Profane Motherfucker]

I'm not sure. I kind of feel like shit. I've been living the past week on Papa Murphy's pizza and some chinese whiskey shit that I bought in Chinatown last week. I'm a mess. Heartburn, gas, painful defecation, etc. It takes a bit of energy to swear so much, and I just don't have it.

A thousand years from now...

[roman_mir]

Fry: Very impressive. Back in the 20th Century we had no idea there was a university on Mars.

Prof.: Well, in those days Mars was just a dreary, uninhabitable wasteland, much like Utah. But unlike Utah it was eventually made livable when the University was founded in 2636.

Leela: They planted traditional college foliage. Ivy ... trees ... hemp ... soon the whole planet was terra-formed!

Fry: Does that mean it's safe to breathe the air?

Prof.: Of course!

What About The Children?

[u-238]

U.S. Middle East envoy Anthony Zinni is to chair security talks today between Israeli and Palestinian officials, in an attempt to secure a cease-fire, against a backdrop of continued violence. Vice President Dick Cheney told CNN he has no immediate plans to return to the Middle East to meet with Yasser Arafat.

Biased science

[Anonymous Coward]

Society members hope that through their research in Wayne County and in the even more remote northern Canadian location, they can show world governments that a mission to Mars is viable.

Shouldn't the goal of this research be to determine if a mission to Mars is viable? The society has already decided that it is viable, and no doubt whatever research they do will be tainted and shaped by this assumption. The research that comes out of this experimentation will be no more accurate than Exxon's studies concerning the Valdez's environmental impact, or the IPCC's terribly flawed global warming studies.

Polygamy simulators

[nucal]

Maybe they wanted to simulate polygamy ... best way to establish a remote colony.

Meet the new boss...

[Anonymous Coward]

Pity this got modden down. It is one of the most cogent arguments I've read on the subject.

I expect you were just trolling, but seriously, RMS and the FSF *are* out to take away our livelyhoods in the name of some nebulous, socialist ideal.

MDRS Web

[jonwiley]

For more information about The Mars Society's Mars Desert Research Station, I suggest you have a look at the MDRS Website.

Fake Mars Landing?

[spoonist]

We're all well aware that NASA very secretly faked the moon landing. I, for one, am very pleased to see that they're being so open about where they're going to film the Mars landing.

Re:Fake Mars Landing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Moron, do us all a favor stick a loaded gun in your mouth and pull the trigger. Thank you.

AC

Re:Fake Mars Landing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Moron, do us all a favor stick a loaded gun in your mouth and pull the trigger. Thank you. AC

Hey Dumbass, ever heard of a joke?

Re:Fake Mars Landing?

[Anonymous Coward]

Genius, please prove to us that anyone actually landed on the moon. Thanks.

Re:Fake Mars Landing?

[Anonymous Coward]

You need to think about it a little bit more. The thin suits of aluminum, rubber and glass, the material used in their spacesuits, we are told protected the astronauts from the Van Allen radiation belts (which gave the Fantastic Four their superpowers, incidently) as well as the solar radiation on the moon and extreme heat (+250 degrees in the sunlight, -250 degrees in the shade) which for some strange reason didn't affect any of the film in their cameras. Remember that three weeks after Hiroshima, residual radiation was enough to ruin most photo negatives; the radiation in deep space and from the sun is much more intense.

On earth we go to the beach to tan ourselves and run the risk of developing cancer from solar radiation. The earth's atmosphere blocks most of this radiation - the moon has no atmosphere, so solar radiation there is deadly. This is simple textbook science here, nothing extraordinary.

None of the astronauts exhibited any symptoms of radiation exposure whatsoever, which is shocking to say the least. Note that the US invested little time or money in researching what the effects of deep space radiation would be on humans. Scientists had no idea what to expect - don't you think we should have at least sent a dog or a monkey out there first? Note that all US space missions, with the exception of the disputed moon landings, have been below the Van Allen radiation belts.

There are many reasons why the US would stage a hoax of this type. First, the Russians beat us into space, so we had to trump them in order to demonstrate the superiority of Western Capitalism.
America was engaged in a brutal and unjust war (started by another well documented hoax, the Gulf of Tonkin incident) and civil unrest was breaking out all over the nation along with the explosion of rebellious subcultures which exhibited disdain for the establishment. Their agitations would eventually play a strong role in bringing the Vietnam war to an end. A successful moon landing would serve to mobilize patriotic sentiment among the populace with the intentions of quieting some of the outrage over the war. Furthermore it would give a boost to the military, at a time when public sentiment was strongly against it. In essence, faking the moon landing may have been designed to bring the nation together during an acute political crisis which had sharply divided public opinion.

Neil Armstrong was only able to land the LEM once successfully in over 300 test flights, and yet landed on the moon without a hitch? Note that we didn't even bother to send any probes to the moonsbefore we suddenly are proposing to send men to the moon.

Re:Fake Mars Landing?

[matrix29]

as well as the solar radiation on the moon and extreme heat (+250 degrees in the sunlight, -250 degrees in the shade) which for some strange reason didn't affect any of the film in their cameras. Remember that three weeks after Hiroshima, residual radiation was enough to ruin most photo negatives; the radiation in deep space and from the sun is much more intense.

Uh, the cameras could have lead shielding and LEAD GLASS (lead glass [def] glass that contains lead oxide and that has a high refractive index and optical dispersion; used in the manufacture of optical glass, in high-quality crystal glassware, and for radiation shielding.) What do you think they used?

Hint: Google search [ lead glass x-ray ]
Hint: Google search [ lead shielding thickness ]

Not sure what to make of them

[Rogerborg]

I was watching a 2 hour Discovery special on the Mars Society Canadian habitat project last night, and I couldn't decide if these guys are visionaries or crackpots.

One some levels, the organisation was impressive, with tons of construction material being airdropped onto an island. The last drop shed it's 'chute and wrecked the construction crane and some other material. Brought up on a diet of space opera (and Junkyard Wars), I expected them to swing into action with a "can do!" plan. What actually happened was that the project manager and society head had a falling out over safety, the construction team walked off, a new architect had to be flown in, and a long debate over what to do next ensued. OK, they did get it all sorted eventually, but the attitude of some of the team really surprised me. After all, this was an "opportunity" rather than a problem (to use management parlance), but some of them seemed to think that it was better to play it safe, call the whole thing off, and try again the next year. Uh, guys, a manned Mars mission wouldn't have that luxury.

And then there were the mock EVA suits that they were using, that were - to be brutally frank - kiddie playtime stuff, being mostly trash can lids and plastic tubing. They were quite honest about this, saying that the idea was merely to try out a lot of activities in the suits to try and predict the problems we'll encounter on Mars. Problem was, they failed to apply lessons that we already know, and started with circa 1950's technology. The big problems were that the helmets fogged up (duh), that it's hard to get items out of your own pockets (so you need mirrors on your wrists, which they knew that NASA suits already have but didn't put on their own suits) and that it's hard to read dim LCD screens through a fogged up helmet.

I really do want to be enthusiastic about the Mars Society, but I can't help but feel that it's a big talking shop and mutual support society for very frustrated people who really wish that some serious money would get put into a Mars mission. It's hard to criticize them for doing something, but it's also hard to take Mars Society seriously when they seem to be more like a Disney Space Camp group having a fun vacation rather than doing bona fide boundary pushing experimentation.

Re:Not sure what to make of them

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a lots of show at the Mars Desert Research Station. But we also do hard work in different areas. Just take a look at our Marsballon mission which is scheduled for 2007:
http://www.marssociety.de/html/modules.php? op=modl oad&name=Downloads&file=index&req=getit&lid=13
(o ld but small)
http://www.marssociety.de/html/modules.php ?op=modl oad&name=Downloads&file=index&req=getit&lid=55(8MB report, pdf-file)

Re:Not sure what to make of them

[56ker]

But it gives us all something to laugh at while we wait for the real manned mission to Mars! As to the Mars Society I think they're more interested in publicity than actually doing proper experiments as to whether living on Mars would be feasible.

Re:Not sure what to make of them

[devonbowen]

I've had similar reservations. That's why my money goes to The Planetary Society (www.planetary.org). They attempt to push the envelope by building real spacecraft.

Devon

Re:Not sure what to make of them

[georgewilliamherbert]

I was watching a 2 hour Discovery special on the Mars Society Canadian habitat project last night, and I couldn't decide if these guys are visionaries or crackpots.

A little of both. I am both a MS member (not active in the current technical program, though) and an independent engineer and space mission designer, and your criticisms are fairly well aimed here.

One some levels, the organisation was impressive, with tons of construction material being airdropped onto an island. The last drop shed it's
'chute and wrecked the construction crane and some other material. Brought up on a diet of space opera (and Junkyard Wars), I expected them to
swing into action with a "can do!" plan. What actually happened was that the project manager and society head had a falling out over safety, the
construction team walked off, a new architect had to be flown in, and a long debate over what to do next ensued. OK, they did get it all sorted eventually, but the attitude of some of the team really surprised me. After all, this was an "opportunity" rather than a problem (to use management parlance), but some of them seemed to think that it was better to play it safe, call the whole thing off, and try again the next year. Uh, guys, a manned Mars mission wouldn't have that luxury.

Accurate assessment, but really just points out what the Mars Society is and isn't.

It's a volounteer organization, fundraising focus, and PR organization trying to do some real field and technical work (on a shoestring) to advance the cause of manned Mars missions. It's not a professional engineering or space mission operations team. The lack of experience shows a lot. The lack of trained personel shows a lot. The lack of ability to select workers for the absolute best in their field shows a lot... a lot of people forget how selective NASA has been able to be in the past. Volounteer organizations have to make do with whoever shows up.

The plus side... they can deploy a base on a remote island in the Canadian arctic and operate it for a summer for about what it takes to keep two of the fifty seats in Mission Control in Houston staffed 24x7 year round, or deploy one to Utah for about the same amount. Useful things to do.

And then there were the mock EVA suits that they were using, that were - to be brutally frank - kiddie playtime stuff, being mostly trash can lids
and plastic tubing. They were quite honest about this, saying that the idea was merely to try out a lot of activities in the suits to try and predict the problems we'll encounter on Mars. Problem was, they failed to apply lessons that we already know, and started with circa 1950's technology. The big problems were that the helmets fogged up (duh), that it's hard to get items out of your own pockets (so you need mirrors on your wrists, which they knew that NASA suits already have but didn't put on their own suits) and that it's hard to read dim LCD screens through a fogged up helmet.

Fair assessment of the first pass suits.

There have been some pretty lively flame wars
over the suits on Usenet and other discussion areas. You're not alone in pointing out the problems with the alpha version suits. The suits basically were mostly impaired by ongoing lack of time and budget to engineer them. They were a rush job done by three harried volounteers in Boulder with almost no budget.

That said, they did discover some useful things about mobility and operations with them. Some of those discoveries were rediscoveries of things that NASA learned already, but there wasn't time to avoid. Some of them were new. One thing NASA really didn't record well was the planning and support cycle for planetary EVA operations; one of the things the Mars Society *has* done well was to videotape and study all of that. Right now, there's only one group with any current, active experience planning and supporting planetary EVA operations, and it's not NASA. The operational lessons are being properly recorded by real psychologists and operations engineers and should be retained by the aerospace community this time around, we all hope.

It's important to note finally on this topic that
the suits are an alpha test version. The two stations are going to be operated on an ongoing basis, and it's intended that the fidelity of the simulation increase over time: better suits, better gear, more realistic remote support, etc. There are some lessons that these early suits won't learn, but there are many that they can. As long as we eventually get to all of them, it's a reasonable program.

I really do want to be enthusiastic about the Mars Society, but I can't help but feel that it's a big talking shop and mutual support society for very frustrated people who really wish that some serious money would get put into a Mars mission. It's hard to criticize them for doing something, but it's also hard to take Mars Society seriously when they seem to be more like a Disney Space Camp group having a fun vacation rather than doing bona fide boundary pushing experimentation.

If these were people hanging around on vacation, that might be a fair criticism. But it takes an enormous amount of volounteer labor to make these things happen: tens of thousands of volounteer hours a year have gone into the Arctic and now Desert stations, for several years now. People aren't goofing off or lying around being lazy, they're doing the real work that building these things and operating them takes.

There are lots of things wrong with the Mars Society at one level or another, but it's not a summer camp. This was demonstrated when the parachute failed to open at Devon Island (for which I am eternally embarrassed... I believe I was the first person to suggest to Bob that they use paradrops for the equipment, though I had nothing to do with the actual operation to do it or build the base). That was demonstrated a couple of days ago when two members survived a plane crash on their way to the Desert station... we nearly lost Devo's guitarist there, damnit.

Get better soon, Frank and Matt!

Re:Not sure what to make of them

[Anonymous Coward]

They do? Gee, I'm with a group that's building real spacecraft (well, surface-to-LEO access, anyway), and even though we've got flying hardware and a development plan, they don't want to talk to us. Frankly, TPS seems to spend its money even more like NASA than NASA - all talk, no action. Even the Mars Society, pitiful as it is, is actually doing something.

Comparison

[justharv]

Mars:
Has no strip clubs.
Has no alcohol.
Has no dirty mags.

Utah:
Has no strip clubs.
Has no alcohol.
Has no dirty mags.

Logical.

I wonder what Joseph would think!

[JimE Griff]

What does this say for the Mormons? And did anyone ever notice the striking similarity between the word Mormon and martian. Always did have my reservations about them.

Already Done

[jaavaaguru]

Hasn't this already been done?

Didn't they just pick some desert in the US for the manned missions to the moon too?

Re:Already Done

[Anonymous Coward]

no, not like this.

i get it now...

[bje2]

see...and all this time i thought they were saying Utah was 75% mormom...i guess they really meant 75% martian...

makes sense now...ever seen Shawn Bradley anyway...

We need to get the US space program back on track

[Mean_Nishka]

I got news for ya... The space race will begin in earnest again very soon. Once the Chinese start their manned missions the US better get its act together and get something established on the moon. China will be there in ten years if we don't. Mars will only be a hop skip and a jump beyond that.

Quite honestly, as great as the ISS is, I wish NASA put its money and research into some sort of moon base. Some congressmen had pushed for this as an alternative plan of action. We would have kept ourselves a few generations ahead of nations developing their own space program while at the same time advancing science.. Now we'll have to play catch-up once another communist power begins its reach for the stars.

OK, better get this out of the way _now_

[Y-Crate]

*insert obligitory cliche about Wayne County, Utah being devoid of intelligent life*

*return to your regularly scheduled thread*

*sigh*

I'm glad that's over with ;)

Re:OK, better get this out of the way _now_

[r00tdenied]

I believe the combined IQ of Wayne county residences is *15*

r00tdenied

i know about text config files

[Anonymous Coward]

and snarks

Re:wonder what Joseph would think--Kolob not Mars

[yintercept]

Mormons are actually from the planet Kolob...not Mars. But, having lived in Utah for 20 years, I have to admit that locating the space ship in Utah (especially rural Utah) will get the Mars Society accustomed to dealing with alien cultures.

Terraforming already underway

[wiresquire]

This Mars society has obviously never seen the Australian outback. Eg this site . Sorry for slashdotting.

Closest to martian reality

[Hugonz]

So, if we land a few miles off the intended landing site on Mars, are gonna land on a bunch of Mormons?

/*sorry, could't resist*/

Re:Closest to martian reality

[E-Rock-23]

That wouldn't be bad, really, seeing as how Mormons have a history of Poligamy (?Spelling?). I wouldn't mind landing a few miles off and ending up with three wives...

I gotta say sorry too. Being agnostic, religion leaves itself open to that sort of humor, IMHO. Mormons are cool with me, I know some, and they're all good ^-^

Re:Closest to martian reality

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I'm pretty much an atheist, but your comments have riled me somehwhat.

I know plenty of 'Mormons' and on the whole they are nice, decent people. Hell, you know, the sort of people you would *want* as neighbours and that would *help* you out if you had a problem.

Don't knock it pal. Just because you don't agree with a person's religion doesn't mean to say that that person can't be your friend.

Balloons

[ArchieBunker]

When Tom Hanks was doing his mini series about the moon landings he said they hooked the actors to helium balloons to make them weigh 1/6 of normal, hence moon gravity.

Mars, Mars, Always Mars...

[E-Rock-23]

For the 2378250542437th time: Why the heck do we give such a hoot about Mars? We need to start small, folks. Have we all forgotten that we have our own little "alien" rock to populate first? The Moon should be our current goal, screw Mars. If we get all excited and gung-ho about the Red Planet and forget about the Moon, we're doomed to the "biting off more than we can chew" philosophy.

Don't babies have to crawl before they can walk? Or walk before they can run? If we skip the moon, we're going to go from crawl straight to a dead sprint, resulting in us falling flat on our faces.

The Mars Society needs to change its name to the Lunar Society and change its focus from Red to Gray. That, and they need to get over the fact that the X-Files is coming to an end...

Re:Mars, Mars, Always Mars...

[r00tdenied]

I highly doubt we are overlooking the moon. Most mission plans for Mars involves the moon from one degree to another. One is establishing a permanent lunar colony on the surface all the way to sending fuel generators to the surfaces to use the moon as a 'gas station' of sorts.

I don't think we are running before we are crawling, we need to begin this sort of planning to prove what technologies are viable and which ones need to be further developed. I agree that there needs to be more of a focus on the moon, but abandoning the red planet is not an option. It has far more resources than the moon does and it has the ability to be teraformed so we could live on it with out specialized life support systems, biospheres,etc.

r00tdenied

Re:Mars, Mars, Always Mars...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey! Howsabout we try to preserve this truly fucking wonderful and amzing planet that we actually live on for Christ's sake?

Oh, I forgot, you want gas for $0.00001/galon.

Southern Utah

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yes, it looks like Mars out here, but I think these people forgot to account for the +30C temperature difference between Utah and the surface of Mars.

Re:We need to get the US space program back on tra

[E-Rock-23]

Amen. Gotta wonder if the Mars Society reads these threads on the Dot. They must not, because they'd find a whole mess of us "Moon First Folks" here.

The chain should go Earth, ISS, Moon, Mars. Since the ISS is operational, it should be used now as a jump-off point to the moon. We didn't have the ISS in '69 and we still made it OK, twice actually.

Here's an idea: let's petition the Mars Society to change its tune and get with the Lunar Plan...

There's a good reason why they chose Utah

[CanadaDave]

It's because of all the crazy Mormans in Utah. The Mormans are so strange, they closely resemble beings from another planet such as Mars. Or did the Mormans come from space in the first place? If the Mars astronauts can deal with the Mormans they encounter on their ground mission, then they can handle any being they may find in space.

Are Mormans allowed to use the Internet? If any Morman reads this, can you tell me why we haven't been getting the Church of Latter Day Saints TV commercicals in Canada anymore? What happened? I always loved those ads when I was young.

Re:There's a good reason why they chose Utah

[Anonymous Coward]

Are Mormans allowed to use the Internet?

Ummm. www.mormon.org and www.lds.org. Utah is perenially in the top five most wired states, and has scored #1 for number of PCs per capita for the last 2 or three years.

If any Morman reads this, can you tell me why we haven't been getting the Church of Latter Day Saints TV commercicals in Canada anymore? What happened? I always loved those ads when I was young.

Take it up with your local TV station. They run just about everywhere else. I have heard that some TV stations won't run them, I guess because the insiduous message of Mormonism might "get you"?

Re:There's a good reason why they chose Utah

[conan_albrecht]

It's always good to laugh at ourselves. :) But seriously, yes, I am a Mormon. Yes, I grew up in Utah. Yes, I even spent a good deal of my summers in Wayne County (great fishing!). We should have fun with the mars site as we go hunting rabbits in the area next time!!!

And yes, Mormons can definately use the Internet. I am a regular Slashdot reader, as well as a Linux user (100% Microsoft free) and Java programmer. I've programmed several open source applications over the years. I do stay away from the Pr0n sites, though.

Before the typical Slashdotters start flaming, please try to be somewhat respectful. :)

Re:There's a good reason why they chose Utah

[CanadaDave]

Sorry for posting the flamebait post about Mormons. I'm glad you have somewhat of a sense of humour by the sounds of it. I guess the average Morman does not fit the stereotypes. I know almost nothing about Mormans, so I should have kept my mouth shut. BTW, 100% Microsoft free, that's quite an accomplishment.

Re:There's a good reason why they chose Utah

[conan_albrecht]

I didn't regard your post as flamebait. The last part of my message was for the additional posts that may or may not have come (they didn't). You actually had some honest questions.

BTW -- I forgot to add on my other post that I don't know why the "Mormon" commercials stopped in your area. I actually had a tape at one time of all of the commercials from the 70's. There were some really great ones and lots of funny ones, all with messages about how we need to spend more time with our kids, more time with our spouses, etc.

One of the best ones was where they asked 3-5 years olds questions about God and Heaven. The kids had extremely funny answers.

Re:There's a good reason why they chose Utah

[Anonymous Coward]

That CRT you are staring at was invented by a Mormon born in Utah, Philo T. Farnsworth. (Also television)

Or, is the CRT and television more examples of technologies borrowed from alien civilizations?

Most of the stuff on TV seems to be from aliens.

Um, duh? The Moon?

[doubleyou]

I would've thought that the Moon would be more of "an effective simulant for the Red Planet" than Utah (or any other place on Earth) could ever be. But then again, what do I know. Let's just jump into the deep end and see what happens. If we fail, then so what if people won't fund us for another hundred years.

Hawaii Extinct Volcanos

[Tablizer]

When I visited Hawaii's "Big Island" and went to the top of the extinct volcano there to watch the "famous sinrise", I noticed that not too far from the viewing site were rocks and soil that looked just like the Viking II landing site. I tromped around for a few minutes pretending like I was walking on Mars (until my wife started shouting, "What the f*** are you doing there? Its just a bunch of rocks, you stupid nerd!")

As far as the weather, I agree with the other readers that polar regions on earth are probably a better training place. However, if you want the *visuals*, then Hawaii is the place. Plus, you can stop at Maui on the way home.

Also, the atmosphere was kind of thin up there, at least to an Earthling.

Well...

[E-Rock-23]

Yes, it has more resources and the ability to be terraformed. But terraforming takes a heck of a long time. Even though we can develop these nifty terraforming technologies to try and speed up the process, the course of nature must also be factored in.

How many millions of years did it take to get Earth to where it has been since life appeared? The first organisms couldn't come out of the water or they'd be fried by UV or other radiation. Once they could resist that, they came out. Then they started affecting the world beyond surface tension.

How long did it take for those first landlubbing lifeforms to affect their environment, creating gasses released into the atmosphere, developing ways of converting energy (photosynthesis, anyone?)? While we can do all that relatively quickly and without a terribly insane amount of thought, how long will it take to affect Mars on a global scale? And how long before that global change will support life as we know it?

Or who's to say life as we know it will be around by the time we hit Mars? There are just too many questions that need answers before we can take a stab at it.

With all the press Mars gets, the common man has seemed to forget about the moon and replaced it with images of Batman/Jim Morrison giving Mars the finger, or Lieutenant Dan standing in a nifty CG model of the Solar System. They're all Mars-Crazy. When is there ever talk of the moon unless it's an eclipse?

The common man doesn't read Slashdot, they go to the movies and watch Captain Dan the Newsman on CBS. That's where they get their info. The media shapes their outlook on our policy towards Space, and has since Armstrong and Aldrin landed. Back then, it was all Moon Fever. But now, we've got Mars Syndrome. Since the media never talks much about getting a jump-off point on the Moon, common folk aren't in Moon Mode. The ISS gets more press, but that's just the first leg of the trip...

Re:Well...

[Zoarre]

But terraforming takes a heck of a long time.

Unless the Mormons do it; after what they did for the Salt Lake Valley, there's no doubt that they could terraform a parking structure in a decade! Maybe with the right kind of religious persecution we could have another habitable planet in no time! :D

OT: Your Website

[Anonymous Coward]

Great, keep it up!

I loved the Limericks, especially the 'Ouagadougou' one.

Futurama already knew it...

[sekra]

Fry: Very impressive. Back in the 20th Century we had no idea there was a university on Mars.

Prof.: Well, in those days Mars was just a dreary, uninhabitable wasteland, much like Utah. But unlike Utah it was eventually made livable when the University was founded in 2636.

OT: Your Website

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Justin, liked your website.

The cats were cool. How come they haven't eaten that cute puppy yet?

Hey Hugonz - If your going to post your resume...

[Anonymous Coward]

... on a web site, at least ensure that you host it on a site that doesn't pop up a zillion fucking browser windows - it just pisses people off.

I know why they picked Utah

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, first of all Utah is full of Morons, oops I meant Mormons, well they are basically the same thing anyways.

So the logical conclusion is that these guys wanting to go to Mars are Morons, and since Mormons are Morons, this is the place to go.

Re:Utah == Mars as desert == Moon?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, aren't you the freak stalking our beloved Michael?

Thumbs replacing fingers???

[fmita]

Soon people really will be all thumbs.

Re:We need to get the US space program back on tra

[dgroskind]

The space race will begin in earnest again very soon. Once the Chinese start their manned missions....

The Cold War is over and there's no propaganda victory to be had by space travel. The U.S. should base its spending on basic research on something more substantial than international public relations.

The net effect of the U.S. being first to the Moon is that it is not getting criticized for abandoning its lunar landing program. Whoever goes to Mars first is going to wonder how they'll pay for the next trip and what they'll get out of it.

*PUDI* EXUTAR SE MARTUN (-1, Offtopic) ???

[Anonymous Coward]

Ceta ces avontu Mars qahetie uvi Utah mon fahtelo mendoc kubarakon. Slashdot cind wantoca isi USA nelo watir matoran.

Mars-like environment

[Anonymous Coward]

Great! Now we have the perfect backdrop to fake a Mars landing!

Re:Utah == Mars as desert == Moon?

[dsoltesz]

Better than that, some training/testing grounds have had craters blown into them to create a surface as nearly identical as possible to potential lunar landing sites:

The volcanic fields around Flagstaff have proven particularly useful in testing equipment and training astronauts. Cameras planned for use in the Surveyor project were tested on the Bonito Flow in Sunset Crater National Park because the lava flow appeared to be similar to flows on the lunar surface. A field of artificial impact craters were created in the Cinder Lakes volcanic field near Flagstaff to create a surface similar to the proposed first manned American landing site on the Moon.
-- Astronaut training in Cinder Lakes, Flagstaff

Testing sites have been chosen for climate, surface cover, surface type, etc., depending on exactly what they're testing or training for.

simulation...whens the real thing?

[sdgscott]

iv heard of this simulation. sounds like a cool xperience i sure hope we get 2 the real red planet soon though. but im still not sure a simulation can stand up to the real panet. i guess well never know untill we land on mars

Mars is easier to get to

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually due to the pressence of an atmosphere on Mars, it's easier to slow down and land on Mars than the Moon. It wouldn't take much more than the same rockets that launched Apollo to get men on Mars. Additionally, the Martian atmosphere means you don't have to take propellant for the return trip!

Re: Lame Comparison

[C0wb0yZer0]

As a resident of Salt Lake City (and non-LDS) you get used to the insipid jokes and stereotypical views from most out of state people. Yes there are no strip clubs, no alcohol, and no dirty mags anywhere to be found here. But did you also know that you need a temple recommend to enter past state lines, and an interview with the bishop to maintain residency? Har har har.

Reason why they chose Utah instead of Canada, eh

[C0wb0yZer0]

Being ridiculed by a guy named CanadaDave. For the Mormon Church I'm gonna have to say ouch.

test

[Anonymous Coward]

test

Wayne County got a sex change

[Lord_Of_The_Beer]

And is now Jane County. Although why anyone would want to live on him....er....her I mean is beyond me..... Whatever turns your crank I guess

Does this mean...?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Philadelphia Inquirer reports in this article that Mars Society crews have chosen Wayne County, Utah as an effective simulant for the Red Planet.

When can we start terraforming Utah?

Does anyone remember "Capricorn One"?

[HP LoveJet]

They can show world governments that a mission to Mars has already taken place.

Utah *is* the red planet.

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you been to Utah?

Have you lived in Utah?

I have. For many years.

Utah *is* the RED PLANET of WESTERN CIVLIZATION.

*I* live in Utah...

[Anonymous Coward]

*I* was born in Utah...

The stereotypes ARE true...and much, much worse!