Slashdot Mirror
More Ergonomic Keyboards
tve writes "Back when moderators were real moderators, karma whores were real karma whores and small, furry creatures living in the mould deep down in your keyboard were real small, furry creatures living in the mould deep down in your keyboard, Slashdot ran a story about ergonomic keyboards. Popular keyboards back then appeared to be the MS Natural keyboard, the famous prehistoric IBM keyboards and for the lucky few who had their company buy it for them, the Maltron keyboard. However, times have changed, keyboards have decayed and new purchases need to be made. So I submit to the Slashdot community: what is the current holy grail of ergonomic typing pleasure, where can I get it and is it affordable for a student on a budget?" Actually we've done a couple of stories on ergonomic keyboards, but since this is asked so frequently I suppose it won't hurt to do another.
Some Logitech keyboards looked okay, but all of them that I found were cordless, which is something I don't want. In the end I settled for some cheap $10 non-ergonomic replacement because nothing fit the bill.
I'm guessing that Microsoft's got some sort of patent on the contour-shape of the Natural keyboard because nobody else seems to have them. Even the Logitech cordless ones weren't quite as good.
Anyway, there's a few cents worth . . .
Al Qaeda has ninjas!
what about those virtual reality keyboards that are superimposed on whatever surface is infront of the computer? How much more ergo can you get? (just put a largish pool of water in front of your keyboard and splash down on the virtual keys... its digit aerobics!)
I might not be a robot, but at least I'm not a robot.
For some uknown reason, the powers that be at Microsoft changed the natural keyboard.
The function keys are 1/2 the size, and the arrows are a cross instead of an inverted T, and the HOME/END/DEL/PGUP/PGDN/INS keys are 2x3 instead of 3x2
Ugh
This probably isn't an ergonomic design....
F na me=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F010%5F002%5F0 00&product%5Fid=26%2D494
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5
Nonetheless it's pretty farkin' cool!!
Best keyboard in the WORLD is...
The Happy Hacking Keyboard!
Not exactly ergonomic in the usual sense of the word, though...
There's no one singular answer for this, you really need to try these things out for yourself until you find something that works. For me, the Kinesis-Ergo has been amazing. Not only can I type like a demon and avoid wrist pain, but the thumb-located Ctrl and Alt keys make (X)Emacs that much easier to work with, not to mention easier on my pinkies :-)
Chris
M-x auto-bs-mode
I have the Kinesis Classic ergo 'board (actually two, one for work and one for home), and it has made a huge difference for me. I can type without having to fear that my wrists are going to start burning.
That said, a keyboard is like a monitor; be sure to try one out in person before you drop $250 on one.
Peace,
(jfb)
To spur "enterprise Linux," Big Bang, the distributed two-phase commit.
Goldtouch has not only several versions of Ergonomic keyboards but also an Ergonomic Mouse and mouse pad.
Ever dream you could fly? Get up from the Flight Sim. I Fly
When I bought my first MSDOS PC (a GW2K 386-25) in December of 1990, I used the crappy $20 Chicony keyboard for about 10 minutes before I called NORTHGATE and ordered one of their $110.00 Northgate OmniKey 101 Keyboards WITH THE FUNCTION KEYS ON THE LEFT SIDE LIKE GOD INTENDED! (ERGONOMICS?!?! Ain't no 'membranes' here - them are MECHANICAL switches!).
It's still my main KB at home - Subspace Continuum wouldn't be the same without it! My only gripe is the placement of the '\' key NOT being above ENTER, but right side of R-SHIFT, and no "Flying Windows" keys. Oh well, CTRL+ESC still works.
Interestingly, it came with a groovy keycap puller tool and every year or two, I have to pull all the keycaps off and clean them in alcohol and chip the crust off the underpanel.
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie
My workstation is an Ultra 5, running Ximian Gnome 1.4 instead of CDE (But CDE is available). I'm beta testing Ximian Gnome for our Windows-Solaris hybrid office.
I can't stand the Sun Keyboard, and I much, much prefer the feel of the MS Natural keyboard (I like the tilted, split layout, the Ctrl key is in the right place).
There are some disadvantages to my setup:
- I still need the occasional key on the Sun keyboard, so I have the Sun Keyboard, a Sun mouse, a MS Natural Keyboard and MS Intellimouse all plugged into a "Sun Interface Converter"
- You can't cut-n-paste with the MS Mouse. The middle button doesn't work, and hitting the left & right buttons doesn't work. So, I am forced to use a sun mouse (Plugged into the Converter). The Sun mouse's ergonomic styling is annoyingly bad, and it's mouse movements are very non-smooth
- Many keys on the MS Natural Keyboard don't work.
- I can't figure out how to make the ALT key work as a META key in Emacs.
- The BACKSPACE key brings up the Emacs Help File
- I can't figure out how to make use of the dead Windows95 keys, or of the Home End Insert keys, or the F1-F12 function keys
- I have this fancy scroll wheel on my MS Mouse, but I can't figure out how to use it.
Where would a poor chap like me look for help? I've been looking around, and I see alot of similar questions about this posted to Usenet, but I see few answers.
I can't even figure out where I need to go to convert these keys. Sawfish has some configuration options, Gnome has some other configuration options, I'm sure sun has yet another set of configuration options -- but I can't find the configuration command worth a damn.
Where can I look for help? What can I do?
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
1. Nice key action. You get a good click. Of course this makes it a bit noisy.
2. The key layout is slightly better than a normal keyboard. The stagger of the keys is removed, so they all sit in lines along the movements of your joints. The first week was frustrating while I made typing errors. After that, I found that I typed a bit faster with a lot less finger movement. I don't have any trouble using other keyboards.
I paid about $80 for mine, which is pretty reasonable for an ergonomic keyboard. I consider it one of the best computer purchases I've ever made: I can type all day without ever having hand troubles. I've never had that experience with any other keyboard.
I'm not affiliated with DataDesk at all. I'm just a very happy customer!
I emphasize the word "real". Cheap, useless knockoffs are the curse of ergonomic products. Not that hard to make something that looks ergonomic. Raise your hand if you've ever tried to use one of those $50 "back chairs" that are guaranteed to destroy your leg muscles. These are imitations of some Swedish item that might actually be pretty good, but nobody sells.
Anyway, here's a plug: I'm profoundly satisfied with the Goldtouch keyboard. What caught my eye was its small footprint. (The theory is that this reduces mouse-related RSI.) To make this work, they put a lot of thought into rearranging the keys. I'm impressed with the result, even though it took me a while to get used to the layout. The design makes it much harder to hit the wrong cursor key, something I used to do a lot.
Other good features I won't go into. But not cheap: $160.
Use a Model M and type like you've got a pair and all of your carpal tunnel troubles will be over.
If it ain't a Model M, it's a piece of crap.
There's no such thing as the "Holy Grail of Ergonomic Keyboards". Reason: every hand is different, so you have to make sure you choose appropriately (size DOES matter). Just walk into a store that has keyboards on display (most stores should do this), go to the keyboard aisle, and start typing. Choose what feels best. Money != comfort. Brand name != comfort. Personally, I've got some cheap $30 or $40 something (Canadian) keyboard, and my wrists have never felt better.
I am using a generic ergo bump-off of the Microsoft Natural that I actually think is superior. All keys are full-size, unlike the ones M$ is sellin now, and I like that the 6 key is on the right-hand chunk of keys instead of on the left. The keys press nicely - not too stiff, not too firm, and a nice click to 'em.
I can't find a manufacturer's name on it and I forgot who made it, but the bottom says, "smart keyboard" and I got it at CompUSA for 30 bucks.
Got no idea on the other issues, but I'm pretty sure the Backspace issue is addressed in the Emacs FAQ.
I've got a Belkin ErgoBoard, which has worked very well for me. The hand positioning it encourages is much more comfortable for me than the MS Natural keyboards, and the keys have good feedback to them. Belkin lists it for about $40, I found mine for $25.
The one thing I don't like about it are the power and suspend buttons on the upper right. Disabled them by opening up the keyboard and sticking a piece of paper between the membranes.
--Mike--
I have been using MS natural keyboards for a long time now and had to keep cleaning mine and "babying" it because none of the keyboards out there were as good as the good old sturdy 3x2, nice wide arrows ones, but MS has finaly brought back some of that with the Natural keyboard Pro.
The feature button at the top are actualy pretty nice to have but I haven't found a way to get them to work properly on Linux yet.
Never the less those new ones bring back the nice arrow keys (if you are like me you don't really use those for games anyways).
For me it's back to MS natural keyboard pro and this time I bought a few just to make sure I get to keep something I am comfy with.
"there is a marmot in the bucket ? I'll go fix that." (don't ask)
I used to hate trackpoints (eraser heads), until I got an IBM ThinkPad, and actually gave it a chance. It's incredible what difference it makes when you don't have to take your hands off the keyboard to adjust the pointer!
It's gotten to the point that it feels noticeably uncomfortable for me to use my desktop pc, since I have to move my hand over to the dang mouse all the time! Thankfully, IBM has a really nice keyboard which not only has an integrated trackpoint, but has a reduced size, much like the Happy Hacking keyboard!
If only they weren't $150, I'd get one right away. Unfortunately, it's stuck on my wishlist for now.
Space Saver 2 Keyboard - Black
and there's a usb, too:
Trackpoint USB Space Saver Keyboard - Black(US English)
Money I owe, money-iy-ay
I realise my 17" monitor is kinda dinky by today's standards, but why do the keyboard makers' web sites use such small pictures of the keyboards? That old saying about a picture being worth a thousand words wasn't intended to suggest substituting one thousand words for a "big enough to get a decent look at it" picture.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
I have had mild carpal tunnel for a few years now. I discovered after much trial and error that which keyboard I used made much less difference than what mouse I used. Some of the "ergonomic" keyboards (particularly one of the MS ones) actually made the problem worse and put my hands in wierd and uncomfortable positions. So I use a generic, straight keyboard, but got particular about the mouse. Mice are very try-before-you-buy though, everyone finds something different comfortable. Since I have small hands the Logitech Wheel Mouse (IR) works perfect for me, but it's too small for some people.
What made the biggest difference for me, actually, was learning to mouse with my left hand (suggested by the ergo guy at my last job). That way the mouse is closer to center when you are seated at the keyboard, since it's right next to the keys rather than off past the numberpad. Thus, your arm isn't reaching out so far to mouse. Also, the stresses are better balanced between the left (mousing) and right (writing) hands.
Not exactly an answer to your question, just something to consider.
"This message is composed of 100% recycled electrons."
There is gobs of information on this page.
http://www.tifaq.com/keyboards.html
Personally I use a Twidder. I have used it for about a year now and still like it very much. There is a bit of learning curve and the mousing can be a little squirrly sometimes.
The typeing injury faq has gobs of information about keyboards. It can be found here
Personnally I use a Twiddler. Some folks don't care for them but I love mine. There is a bit of learning curve and the mouse buttons can be a bit squirlly. It has 16 keys, 4 modifyers, and a track point. You type by makeing cords. The track point moves the mouse and puts the 16 keys into mouse button mode(little squirlly).
They're cheap, too. Look around flea markets for old models. My first was $5 US, the other three $2.50 each. Or if you must have new ones, check Unicomp, and look at the Customizer.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
Remember the Northgate OmniKey 802? If so, you want to take a look at the Avant Stellar, from Creative Vision Technologies, which bought Northgate's plans when they went belly-up. No fancy ergo-shapes here, just six pounds of steel, an unbelievably solid feel, infinite reprogrammability, and function keys across the top and down the left side, as God intended them to be.
The best keyboard I have EVER used was on an IBM PS/2 Model P70. (That was a portable PS/2 with an orange-colored gas plasma display. The box had a 386 running at 20 MHz and weighed about 20 pounds!)
The keyboard had an extremely light feel to it, with tactile feedback; it took almost no effort to type and it NEVER, EVER missed a key I typed on it. I could absolutely fly on that keyboard and at the end of the day I had no fatigue at all!
I've been looking over the past several years for a keyboard like it and have had absolutely NO luck. If any /.'ers out there remember this wondeful keyboard, and can suggest a comparable one, I'd be forever grateful!
It is it is... I've been reading the FAQ, and the solution doesn't work for me. Think I need to find out what my PC Keyboard -> Sun Converter Box -> Xterm is actually sending to emacs ...
XEmacs works fine... my backspace error only happens with Emacs.
"Can of worms? The can is open... the worms are everywhere."
I know there is a utility that's standard on many linux/unix type distro's called I believe kbd or xkb that let's you select and or alter/edit the keymap of your keyboard so you can map a particular key to a different function. I remember reading some sort of howto on doing this so you can switch the functionality of the left ctrl and the caps lock key to further reduce pinky strain when typing emacs commands, make it like the sun keyboards.
I'm too lame for sigs
I use regular Keytronic keyboards at the office, and a logitech internet keyboard(like the feel, don't use thost stupid buttons)
When I use an ergo split keyboard, my wrists hurt in under 10 minutes. yet, i can go all day on a regular keyboard.
can't figure it out
http://www.datahand.com/flashsite/home.html
:-)
At $1300 I've never used one, but it sure looks pretty
The data hand is NOT one, correct? I don't know about the twiddler. Anyone have experience with them?
It is by coff... er, will, alone I set my mind in motion...
Has more ergo and other keyboards than I imagined existed. Can't vouch for them - I use a Model M (with the drain holes) and am a 2 fingered typist, so ergo keyboards just screw me up. I found the site searching for omnikey info - I had just found one - literally - and was doing research.
Good luck
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
The most bothersome thing to me about the MS Natural keyboards (besides their somewhat squshy feel) is that they put the 6 on the left, when it belongs on the right side of the top row. As a touch typist it was the primary reason I bought my own keyboard to bring into work, the cheapie US Logic that ChumpUSA resells as its own brand. $35 is a pretty good price, and I've got two that are now about 2 years old and they still have nice action. I just need to disable that damned mouse button in the middle of it. :-)
--- It is not the things we do which we regret the most, but the things which we don't do.
try going into vi and in insert mode hit ^V, then backspace. It should print the control code sent by backspace. Then you can remap this in emacs.
or better yet keep using vi.
Scuttlemonkey is a troll
I think I've headed off Carpal Tunnel Syndrome before it got serious by moving to this keyboard, so I'd definitely recommend it!
http://www.penagain.com/
DISCLAIMER: I am doing some work for this company. But I've played with the prototype, and I think it's very impressive.
has anyone tried one?
there's also some whack ass keyboards up in here
MoRe... LaTeR... -=PJK=-