Slashdot Mirror


Hack Your Ignition (Before Someone Else Does)

guanxi writes: "IEEE Spectrum has an interesting article about hacking and specifically, the "hacker's nirvana on wheels", all the way from hot-rodding to reprogramming your digital ignition. Of course, I neither endorse nor recommend any of the procedures mentioned, any of which may be inherently dangerous to your life and your warranty. "

35 of 393 comments (clear)

  1. Digital Odometers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How about hacking digital odometers?
    I'd imaging it is just stored in memory somewhere. Set'er back to 0 and no one would be the wiser!

    1. Re:Digital Odometers by BeerSlurpy · · Score: 3, Informative

      There are devices for hacking odometers of various cars. The "all makes and models" variety routinely sell for 2500-3000 on ebay. I imagine there are quite a few cars out there with dialed back mileage.

      I personally think that digital odometers were a mistake, but I also think that once you get past the 150k mile mark, mileage is pretty irrelavant, since most of the car has been replaced with newer parts at that point. My old car was in better shape at 140k miles than at 118k. Ive gone through numerous body panels, a radiator, a cylinder head, a few sets of tires, shocks, brakes etc etc. I think I would rather have a rebuilt car with 200k on the clock than an original parts car with 115k.

  2. car mods by flynt · · Score: 5, Informative

    here is a sweet page about modding cars. It can turn you into a ricer real quick. Car mods are pretty popular these days in my town, from big fins to stickers, to large exhaust pipes, there's just no end to the mods.

  3. Re:Bicycle. by ktakki · · Score: 5, Funny
    Nothing to hack into.


    Nothing to hack? Hah!

    It starts with the baseball cards taped to the frame that make the BRRRRRRR sound in the spokes.

    Next thing you know you've got an oxy-acetalyne torch in your hand and you're welding a sissy bar to the frame and extending the front forks for that low-rent low-rider look.

    Ask the people at Fat City or Rivendell how they got started.

    k.

    --
    "In spite of everything, I still believe that people are really good at heart." - Anne Frank
  4. Tune with care by klui · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One of the problems with tuners is that they add more power without accounting for aging of components. This isn't usually a problem in racing since you're rebuilding your components after every or a number of races. But for "hackers," they often tune it and forget it--or tune it and increase the mods. Sometime down the road, they'll blow a piston or apex seal without warning. Not to mention several thousand dollars' down the drain.

    I personally prefer more conservative tuning, but then when some guy beats you during an ad-hoc "race," your first instinct is "gotta get mo' power."

  5. How do you... by IronTek · · Score: 3, Funny

    So how do you think you explain this to your car company if you screw it up?

    Honda: "what's the problem, sir"

    You: "well, I was wiring an internal network into my car and fused my hand to the cable and the glove box. Is this covered?"

  6. The Aritcle in a Nutshell... by cscx · · Score: 5, Funny

    Man invents automobile.

    Man builds automobile.

    Man adds digital data bus to automobile.

    Man discovers that you can snoop on automobile's digital data busses.

    Man succeeds.

    Man discovers no useful information from snooping automobile's digital data bus.

    Logical conclusion: Man has too much time on his hands.

  7. A question by sllort · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Reverse-engineering is fun. Reverse-engineering embedded systems is even more fun, because it's hard. Reverse-engineering safety-critical embedded systems is really challenging, and not for the stupid.

    Now, what the author is talking about is reverse-engineering the systems that control AntiLock braking, ignition, and transmission control, among other things. It's a really cheap way to improve performance on a car.

    Car companies (well, at least Ford) have a bad history when it comes to electronic civil liberties. At what point in reverse-engineering a throttle control system would you be "bypassing an access protection device"? Probably never. But consider that Adobe got someone jailed for breaking ROT13; Cuecat was XOR. If people start selling hot-rod software (and they are), how long will it be till auto manufacturers start answering Yes to the author's "is it encrypted" question. It might only be ROT13, but it would be enough to bust anyone who was selling firmware upgrades for a Mustang and put them out of business for good.

    Anyone remember the 60 minutes Audi 5000 scandal? Where the car's fuel injection system was said to, in rare cases, cause the car to accelerate out of control, causing injury or death? Let your subconcious do the dreaming about the accidents that could come from improperly debugged ABS code or throttle control. Now imagine that someone hacks their car's firmware, crashes in a fireball, and their family sues the automaker. The automaker can't prove that the car was modified... at all.

    My prediction: this stuff will scare automakers shitless, and they will fall all overthemselves to find a way to apply the DMCA to stopping the dissemination of reverse-engineering information.

    Of course, I could be wrong.

  8. Hacking the Odometer by atheos · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've got a nice hack for ya.
    New Ford F-150's, Expeditions, ect.
    Unplug the main harness going to the digital display, and locate a gray wire, with a black stripe. (your VSS wire) Place a small strip of tape over the metal pin, and
    VOLIA
    no mo miles

  9. That's been going on for a while by strlen · · Score: 3, Informative

    There's replacement EEPROMS for various cars with digital ignition (as opposed to a distributor) available on the market, some of them may even be installed by your dealership (depends on the dealership of course). They've also been on the market for quite a while and aren't a novelty. If I'm correct, on non-digital-ignition automobiles, you can use MSD's system to retard or advance your ignition timing. Also, this is not a very safe way to increase your engine's power, as advancing ignition, raises the cylinder pressure far more than any other modification, in propotion to the gain (usually no more than 15 hp).

  10. Wanna see a REALLY cool car? by Rampant+Atrocity · · Score: 4, Informative

    Here's a car that's been pre-hacked and souped up for ultimate geek driving: the MegaCar! I mean, just look at this picture. LCDs everywhere, 150k/sec mobile connectivity...The flash site is annoying, but damn, that car is sweet....

    1. Re:Wanna see a REALLY cool car? by xmalenko · · Score: 3, Informative

      And you'll probably be able to get it pretty cheap soon, too, since the owner has landed in prison. Here's more about it: http://www.kimble.org/message20020220.htm

      No pity for him here though. Goes along with what I think of people with toys like expensive pimped-out cars and gaudy flash sites. Give me my '87 Nissan and plain text web page any day!

      Back to adding neon lights into my computer...

  11. Keep the Warrenty by guamman · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In most cases, the manufacturer of most sports cars (corvette, etc.) has a liscensed third party like shelby for Ford. These suppliers and aftermarket manufacturers have certin chips that can be installed without ruining you entire warrenty. Sometimes, the warrenty is just modified to take out the changed part of the car.

  12. Formula 1 by BigBir3d · · Score: 3, Informative

    Not only have they thought of everything that he was talking about, but they actually are doing it. This season, today, right now! Everything is adjustable, although some of it is not legal ;-) The best part, it is all adjustable, on the fly, literally. That's right boys and girls, wireless! Ferrari and Williams BMW are at the forefront, of course. There has been much effort into making sure that each of the teams are not vulnerable to hacking or jamming by the other teams. (The budget for these top-flight teams is supposedly nearly $200,000,000US)

  13. OK - Free beer offer by bunyip · · Score: 5, Funny

    Yep, you got it. I'll buy a beer for the first true hack on a Segway.

    Suppose you had one, what would a cool hacker (such as you, dear reader) make it do?

    Oh, BTW, I guess I'd have to buy you a Ginger Beer.

    Alan.

    1. Re:OK - Free beer offer by boopus · · Score: 3, Funny

      Obviously you'd teach it to be "posessed" so that it would wander around the room and bump into things... Of course, it should map things out and only bump into them once. Reproducing old hacks with new hardware is a tradition.

  14. Very common already by milkmandan9 · · Score: 4, Informative

    This is really very common in the automotive tuning world already. Many companies have piggyback-style computers that intercept the signals entering and leaving the stock engine computer and modify them accordingly. Products like the A'PEXi S-AFC (among many many others) use relatively simple mathematical formulae (think...mx+b) or look-up tables to modify the signals that the engine computer sees from the sensors or the signals that the actuators see from the computer.

    For the more advanced racer, there are entire standalong engine management systems that entirely the engine computer itself (think Haltech E6k and others).

    The point here is that the signals used between sensors and microprocessors onboard a vehicle aren't difficult to decode. Most relate to measuring the resistance across a sensor or sending out a pulse to run a fuel injector at a given interval. Granted, the signals sent between the various computers are a bit more complex, but it's by no means impossible to decode. The only reason that 3rd-party aftermarket manufacturers are really the only people building these things is that there isn't a whole lot of return for the average home-mechanic. By the time Joe Six-Pack builds his engine management system, he's spent so much time that he could have enhanced the performance of his vehicle with all sorts of non-electronic devices that are cheaper and better understood in the automotive community.

    Are there very cool things that can be done by the individual with a personally-designed engine (and transmission, and A/C, etc) management system? Sure! Loads of cool stuff!

    Now how many people out there can spare the time, effort, and money to have a system that really only performs marginally better than anything that can be bought off the shelf? Not many people, that's for sure.

    But luckily, that's what universities are for...which explains why I'm still in school.

    1. Re:Very common already by bunyip · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Now how many people out there can spare the time, effort, and money to have a system that really only performs marginally better than anything that can be bought off the shelf? Not many people, that's for sure.

      Hmmm - what about overclockers? Submerge your MB in liquid nitrogen to gain a couple o' hundred MHz? I've seen some pretty cool hacks on /. over the last couple of years.

      How about spending nights and weekends hacking the Linux kernel to reduce interrupt latency? Would the "average" computer user care or notice?

      I would think that many people would do this. We nerds have a kindred spirit in hot-rodders. To them, a generic four-banger is the M$ of the automotive world.

      I would like to add that I'm both a computer hacker and car hacker (Subaru WRX). I also brew my own beer (beer hacker?).

    2. Re:Very common already by milkmandan9 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Hmmm - what about overclockers? Submerge your MB in liquid nitrogen to gain a couple o' hundred MHz? I've seen some pretty cool hacks on /. over the last couple of years.

      Very true. They're the same in spirit, and the only difference is in implementation.

      You usally (usually!) don't have to worry about getting stuck in the middle of nowhere if your overclocked MB bites the dust, and when it does, it doesn't always (always!) mean that it will make a $4000 engine turn itself into scrap.

      The skill sets are different, too. With overclocking, you need good computer skills and some common-sense mechanical and electrical skills. Beyond that, all you need is the cash to buy it all. When deciphering a modern engine management system you need a good background in CS, some workable knowledge of EE, and enough mechanical skills to get the damned thing running.

      Or, in the case of some (some!) of the vinyl-sticker-emblazoned, wake-the-neighborhood-up-at-3am types, all you need is a good instruction manual or a mechanic worth his price.

      But I definitely agree with you. The spirit is the same.

  15. LINK UPDATE REQUESTED: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    It is inappropriate to link to the Jargon File's main corpus....It is several megabytes, and costs the site maintainer mucho bandwidth so you can browse one entry.

    Use this: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/hack. html

  16. software mods aren't risk free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    My impression was that the article writer doesn't have much experience in the tuning market, or he'd have mentioned chipping turbocharged engines, and he'd also demonstrate a better understanding of what goes on. Most chips(even for normally aspirated engines) don't just alter timing; they alter the fuel ratio to be perfect for power, which is different from the ideal air/fuel ratio for emissions. Yes, ignition timing does affect power/emissions too, but it's silly to ignore the other half of the equation. Also, among the european/asian car makes, programmable systems are pretty rare; most simply buy a preprogrammed chip from a company that's done the testing/setup for you. Makes a lot of sense considering how expensive some of these engines can be. Even just altering fuel mixture can cause substantial damage; too rich(ie too much fuel) and you'll cause the catalytic converters to overheat and melt($$$$$$.) Too lean, and you can raise the exhaust gas temperature to the point that you actually destroy the exhaust valves and they start leaking.

    As for turbo chips...bear with me here. My car('91 Audi 200 quattro 20v turbo) makes 217hp stock. With new ROM chips for fuel/timing maps and a new pressure sensor supplied by an Audi tuner who has been in business since the early 80's...it makes almost 280, by allowing higher pressure from the turbo(aka "boost".) It yields sub 6 second 0-60 times for a full size luxury sedan(not to brag, but few cars, new or old, can beat me off the line, including any of Audi's current model lineup, unmodified.)

    This particular chip pretty much stresses the limit of the k26 turbo; as with any turbo, spin it too fast and it'll disintegrate. These things operate at -very- high speeds...50,000 rpms is not uncommon...very high temps(several hundred degrees or more)...and very close tolerances. If a piece flies off or something, it can cause an enormous amount of damage; little pieces of the turbo can end up getting inhaled by the engine. If you're lucky, it doesn't take the engine with it. If you're not so lucky, the metal shards scratch the cylinder walls, or the oil causes so much crap to build up inside the cylinder that the compression ratio skyrockets and the engine starts to "knock"(ie when the mixture ignites before it should.) When the piston's still going up and the mixture ignites, you can break things. FAST. Look on almost all engines these days and you'll see a small sensor bolted to the block...it's a microphone, basically, and it listens for knocking(the ECU knows when it fired a spark plug, so if it gets a noise when it hasn't...tada, knocking.)

    Particularly with a chip, there are a lot of things that can push the turbo over the edge...for example, a clogged air filter will make the turbo work harder to pressurize the same amount of air(ie, it'll need to spin faster.) While the engine control unit(ECU) takes into account high elevation via an external barometric sensor, it can't tell if your air filter is clogged! Another danger is that the intake air temperature can be too high; as you compress air, it heats up, and if it's too hot, the further compression in the cylinder will heat it beyond the flash point of the gas/air mixture, and you get knocking(see above.) You can also exceed the limits of the mechanical strength of the connecting rods(ie what connects the piston to the crankshaft, transferring the force of the explosion into mechanical rotation), the head bolts(what holds the "head" of the engine up against the block; it forms the top of the cylinder, and the more powerful the explosion in the cylinder, the more stress on the head bolts), the transmission, even the driveshafts sometimes

    Some early chip designs for A4/S4 models pushed the turbos just a tad too much(the vendor in question had a bad reputation in the first place) and turbos were getting overspun left+right(expensive, considering the S4 has -two- turbos.)

    Audi of America got wise to it, and unfortunately, is now -extremely- aggressive about going after owners who have installed aftermarket chips, despite the fact that they're quite safe now that more reputable tuners(who do better QA testing) have forced the crappy chips off the market.

    So, dealers started checking ECUs for signs of removal, modification, etc. Owners countered by buying spare ECUs and installing the unmodified ECUs back into the car before having it serviced.

    Amusingly, AoA caught on to this too...because their Client Relations staff were reading the webboards these guys belonged to. They were dumb enough to brag about it after "fooling the dealer".

    VW and Audi have already started introducing encryption+verification that keys the ECU to all sorts of other things in the car so that it can't be easily swapped. VW/Audi's "real" reason is that it is for antitheft reasons.

    It took all but a month or two for someone to figure out how to get around the keying. Same debate as publishing security exploits...except that cars generally don't get stolen unless they can be stolen in a few minutes, and keying the ECU doesn't prevent theft(it just makes the ECU useless in any other car until its been re-keyed.)

  17. People have been doing this for quite a while. by td · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The first time I heard of aftermarket ROMs (for the fuel injection computer) the car in question was the 1984 Pontiac Fiero, GM's short-lived (1984-1988, I think) mid-engined sports car.

    --
    -Tom Duff
  18. Actually, this car hacking stuff is old hat. by BeerSlurpy · · Score: 5, Informative

    Two points: ONE: most cars do NOT benefit from performance computers. TWO: most performance computers are added on to cars that are normally naturally aspirated and converted to turbo form. (a lot of cars that dont have turbos from the factory judge the amount of air with a vaccuum sensor instead of a mass air sensor) Often the relevant sensors dont even exist for the stock computer to talk to.

    To make an example, the average honda civic computer settings are pretty much already maxxed out in stock form. You add an intake and an exhaust and youre still in the range that the stock computer can adjust for. You can actually add about half an atmosphere of boost (from turbo or supercharger) and still not need a custom computer. This applies to a most other non-turbo cars as well. Factory turbo cars have even higher limits.

    Remember, modern cars have to be able to operate at 10,000 feet above and below sea level in a wide range of temperatures. Most cars have injectors that can take about 150% to 200% of stock duty before they begin to max out. Up to this point the car will still not even pollute!

    Basically the only 2 ways to outpace the stock computer is to

    1)bring in too little air at idle or have massively oversized injectors (the computer can't control the injectors to produce less than a certain minimum period of being open) which will cause "lopey idle" or stalling and rich emmissions.

    2)bring in so much air at high rpm that the stock injectors can't let in enough fuel. Basically you will start to run "lean" (not enough fuel) which will produce very high temperatures and detonation (and kill your engine).

    You basically only need a special computer if you are running massive cams (alternatively you could just raise the idle, which most people do) or if youre running such massive amounts of boost that the only solution is to run massive injectors (here again, you can actually just raise the idle). Now consider this: when youre making over double the stock hp, there is no way a factory computer is going to be able to cope anyway- I dont see the point of making them more hackable. On top of which, the only reason to use an expensive computer is to make the car more emissions friendly. And guess what mods are pretty much illegal under CARB rules? You guessed it! Programmable ECUs!!! The high-boost 323 and miata guys routinely run hacked ECUs with 12-15psi of boost, then turn down the boost and swap injectors for smog every two years. Its pretty sad that you have to break the law to pollute less.

  19. Re:Hmm.. by John_Booty · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The car manufacturers have another very good reason for keeping the electonics systems relatively simple- so they WORK BETTER. Each flaw costs them millions of dollars in recalls or warrantied repairs. The less extraneous shit they cram into the electronics, the less is likely to go wrong.

    Maybe commerical software engineers will realize this, some day? ;-)

    --

    OtakuBooty.com: Smart, funny, sexy nerds.
  20. Hmmm..... by The_dev0 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Now if I can just hack my car to start somewhere in the first 200 tries...

    --
    Never fight naked, unless you're in prison...
  21. The one truly open sourced car by bandix · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Why would you waste your time hacking a car that fights you every step of the way (physically, electronically, and financially)? I only own and drive open sourced cars. My daily driver is a 1974 Volkswagen Beetle. There is not a single part for this car I couldn't write a check to replace. I also haven't paid a mechanic since I bought it. There're no computer diagnositics I have to pay some guy with his name on his shirt to run for me. All I need is a good chest full of Craftsman metric tools and my ears. Your stock Beetle not fast enough for you? $2000 worth of NEW parts will build a complete engine to your specifications that will propel that 870kg car to speeds you'd never thought possible. Countless books have been written that detail every system in the Beetle inside and out. Why would you buy a car that tries to keep you out with complex computerized systems? Want to modify the ignition timing? All you need is a 10mm socket. Ferdinand Porsche designed my car. Who designed yours?

    --
    Brandon D. Valentine
  22. Re:AoA already does that by BeerSlurpy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    First, the original poster: The audi S4 only goes from 250 crank hp to about 310 crank hp with a computer. YOu can get up to about 350 or so with an intercooler and some other low cost tweaks.

    Anyway, second poster: cars today are engineered way way way beyond the use they will see in stock form. An audi s4 most likely will be reliable at 400 crank hp. They have sleeved cylinders and a strong bottom end (amongst other features). 500 would most likely be pushing it. And the S4 will run through tires at the same rate with 250 hp as it would with 600hp. Its all about the weight, not the power, unless you do lots and lots of huge smoky burnouts. The first poster's S4 will actually be no more expensive than stock in the long run, and it will not be any less reliable.

    Also, an S4 is not a light little car. It weighs about 3500 lbs, which in my book is a very heavy car. Thats only marginally lighter than a bmw 5 series.

    Ferraris are in the shop every 3000 miles for a number of reasons:
    Ferrari's reputation isnt based upon having reliable cars- that is Honda's little dance. If Ferrari starts making reliable sorta-fast cars, then they will be written off as having lost touch with their heritage (porsche cayenne anyone? blech)
    They arent engineered to be super reliable, they are engineered to be weekend toys for the rich. Ferrari makes a lot of concessions to performance and a lot of concessions to "tradition" since many people buy ferrari because they want to buy into ferraris old racing image. People want gated shifters, a loud whiny exhaust and they want it painted red.
    They have more complicated valve trains with a ton more moving parts. A ferrari v12 has about 60 valves and 4 camshafts, non of which are self adjusting (another concession). Sooo, once a year or so, you have to bring your ferrari in and have everything looked at. VERY expensive. About 3 times more labor involved than opening up a dohc 4 cylinder- this before you factor in the traditional ferrari price gouge.
    Ferraris have a special formula of oil you can only get at the dealer.
    Ferrari parts arent exactly mass produced. Its cheaper to do preventative maintenance than to drive it until it explodes and then replace the engine.

  23. Re:Bicycle. by dhogaza · · Score: 3, Funny

    My God ... Nike, Adidas and all the rest rely on the fact that your feet need high-tech aids if you're to simply walk from the fridge to the couch with a cold one.

    Do you really believe that your shoes don't record your beverage brand choice?

  24. Vehicle Speed Sensor and Speedometer Cables by BigBlockMopar · · Score: 3, Informative

    This meant no headlights, turn signals, radios, and no guages. Nothing. Which meant that the odometer didn't rack up miles. Perfect if you plan on selling the thing.

    Heheh...

    I imagine though that it would probably be just as easy to disconnect the cable in a normal odometer if you wanted to deceive. I'm not positive though.

    Older cars had a speedometer cable coming from the transmission tailshaft or transaxle to the gauge. The cable was merely a concentric cable in jacket, kinda like bicycle brake cable but meant to spin. For the most part, you could simply reach up behind the dashboard, feel around to the center of the back of the speedometer, and unclip the speedo cable from the gauge. A warning: this is a lot more difficult than it sounds, the contortions required to get your hand back there are nasty, there are probably live wires with some current (ie. headlight circuit, ammeter, etc) back there so make sure you take off any metallic jewelry, and stuff back there is fragile and expensive (big labor) to fix.

    Don't disconnect the speedo cable at the transmission. The cable is usually driven directly by a gear, and it's kept lubricated inside the transmission oil. When you take off the cable, if you don't plug the hole in the transmission well, dust will get in there and lunch your transmission (to say nothing of the big leak messing up your driveway).

    Because speedometer cables are expensive and heavy and the fuel injection system likes to know the car's speed so that it can better understand the engine load, most cars since about 1985 will have a Vehicle Speed Sensor. The VSS is attached to the side of the transmission exactly where the speedo cable would have come out. It uses optical sensors, hall effect sensors or magnetic pickup coils to create a pulsetrain relative to the speed of the car. The pulsetrain is then sent to the computer, the computer usually sends that on to the speedometer. Sometimes they're simply paralleled.

    You could disconnect the VSS just by unplugging the wire. Most cars won't even notice it until there's an engine load (vacuum is lowered, throttle position and engine speed aren't idle) which could only be explained by movement. At that point, your Check Engine light will light up, and it probably won't go away until you reconnect the sensor. Sometimes it won't go out until you visit the dealership. And, unless the EFI computer reads the data coming from the ABS computer as a backup to the VSS, it's very unlikely that it will generate a signal to drive the speedo or the tach - though, based on engine speed and knowing what gear you're in, the computer could calculate and drive the speedo/odo to display accurate speed and mileage.

    My best advice is, if you want to play with the EFI system (and VSS/Speedo/Odo as a consequence), find yourself an earlier (mid-80s) fuel-injected car on the way to the junkyard. Chevy Celebrity / Pontiac 6000 are common, cheap (about $200 if you find one with expired plates rusting in someone's laneway), durable and relatively easy to fix. The GM multiport and throttle body EFI systems are well documented all over the place because they're so popular, and variants were used across the entire product line in a given year.

    Buy the car, take it home, start it up, and start pulling sensors to see what they all do!

    --
    Fire and Meat. Yummy.
  25. Car Mods, Real Power versus Silly Stickers by BigBlockMopar · · Score: 4, Troll

    They just want to make their pansy little box or car look faster.

    Exactly. For clarity to those who don't know cars:

    There's nothing like having some loser describing to you how quickly he can make his 1.6L Honda Civic go.

    Imagine if you owned a Cray supercomputer and some child implied that his "tuned" 400MHz Celeron was in the same ballpark.

    As the saying goes, there's no replacement for displacement. An engine is an air pump, the more air you suck through it per revolution, the more fuel you can mix with the air to achieve complete combustion. The more combustion, the bigger the explosion pushing the piston down, and the more power you get from the engine.

    A 1.6L or whatever Honda is laughable in the face of a common Chevy 350 (5.7L) like you find in a Camaro or Caprice Classic, or in the face of a Ford 302 (5.0L) like in a Mustang, much less the Chrysler 440 (7.2L), Chevy 454 (7.4L) and King of Big-Blocks, the Chrysler 426 Hemi of the musclecar days.

    Street racing is acceleration from a stoplight. That's called drag racing. There's a reason why those long and skinny drag racing cars with the huge fat tires (the cars are called "rail cars", the class of racing is Top Fuel drag) are rear-wheel-drive with big V8s, not front-wheel-drive with whiny little 4-cylinder engines.

    Those racecars share more in common with my daily-driver 1976 Dodge pickup truck than does a typical ricer's car. My '76 Ram has a 400 (6.6L) V8 driving the rear wheels. With a curb weight of 4,000lb, it's about twice the weight of a Honda Civic. But 6.6L / 1.6L = 4.125 times more engine, and all other things being equal, 4.125 times the power. Into only twice the weight.

    Needless to say, when an Integra with a big stereo pulls up beside me, I enjoy stomping on the gas pedal and showing him my taillights.

    Modern EFI, overhead cams, combustion chamber design, etc., make incremental differences to improving the power, but a street car's engine is still built for gas mileage, durability and emissions, not for power, and the modern requirements for gas mileage and emissions choke the power potential of these modern improvements.

    Those of us with real machines are quite content with our beige cases (in my case, a older, but still fast as all hell compaq proliant 8000 which was picked up dirt cheap from a dot com gone bust) and sleeper cars (also in my case, an Alpina).

    Indeed! My truck is forest green with rust and primer spots. Someday, I'll get around to painting it so that it looks nice again, but there won't be silly aftermarket rims or little blue lights on the windshield washer jets or clear tailights and big aluminum spoilers.

    The car is either fast, or it isn't.

    My truck gets 7 miles per gallon on the highway. The HC emissions are ~2 PPM, which is better than lots of 1986 cars, let alone 1976 trucks. I'm burning all that fuel. Where do you think it all goes?

    Final thought. I tried Carroll Shelby's old trick. I taped a $20 bill to my dashboard, just in front of the passenger's seat. I had a disbeliever get in. I told him that, when the stoplight turned green, if he could grab that $20, it was his. He didn't get the $20.

    --
    Fire and Meat. Yummy.
    1. Re:Car Mods, Real Power versus Silly Stickers by zerocool^ · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Respectfully, I disagree.

      I believe many slashdot readers would be interested in your "rice burners". Racing a honda is an exercise in science over brute force, something slashdot readers can appreciate. To equate it, it would be the difference between getting just any old pentium 4 1.5 Ghz system, and getting an athalon 1.2 Ghz and tweaking it by using better hardware, a cleaner OS install, faster standards, and some code tweaking to get the performance level up above that of the P-4.

      In the same fashion, you could take your '71 Nova SS 350 and blow away a stock 1995 civic. But you could also take the civic, add Nitrous, replace the hood with a fiberglass one, change the gears on the transmission, get a forced air kit, some traction bars, and a new set of cams, and run 11's. You have to remember with that big steel car and the small block 350, you're pulling a lot of weight. You're getting much more horsepower per liter out of a honda.

      Just for kicks, check out http://www.nhrasportcompact.com/2002/drivers/S_Pap adakis.html - Stephan Papadakis - who broke just about every record for front wheel drive cars.

      And just for the record, I still cringe when I see a honda roll down the street with just the exhaust done, cause it sounds bad and looks retarted. My brother has a '71 Nova SS w/ 350, traction bars, lunati cams, poroso throttle or something, you name it, it's got it. It puts about 410 Hp on the ground and has an ET of 12.2. But it also gets about 5 miles to the gallon. I'd rather have the fast-if-you-want-it-fast honda, which also gets 37 miles to the gallon.

      ~z

      --
      sig?
    2. Re:Car Mods, Real Power versus Silly Stickers by BigBlockMopar · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't have the link, but I saw a video on Consumption Junction of a Viper getting owned by a shitty little Civic.

      It's unlikely, but not impossible.

      Acceleration is all about power to weight ratio, and then how well you get that power to the ground.

      First off, economics. I can go to a wrecking yard, spend $50 for a used Chevy 350 from a junked taxicab, spend $1000 having it machined and then another $2000 on assorted parts, assemble it myself, and get (conservatively) 400HP from it.

      To get anywhere near that kind of power from a smaller engine (1.6L = ~95 CID), the engine must be revved up all to hell, and the machining tolerances must therefore be extremely tight - spending lots of labor having pistons balanced to within 1/100th of a gram, versus 1/10th of a gram like you could do with the 350. Yes, the newer engine's head will flow better than a 350, yes, there's less reciprocating mass because it's just a sewing machine. But to get the volumetric efficiency and torque curves high enough to do that without grenading, you're adding a turbo, porting the heads, etc. Aftermarket parts are far more expensive for those motors, and the knowledge base of guys who've built up Civics for serious power is a lot less than the skill and number of guys who've built up 350s. Expect to spend $10-15k by the time all is said and done.

      Now, gearing. A Viper's first and second gear are agressive, but the car is designed for top-end speed, which is reflected in the design of the brakes and suspension. The Viper will be quick off the line (1st and 2nd) but the motor will have more room to wind in 3-6, to allow the RPMs to be reasonable at 100+MPH.

      If the Civic is anywhere near as quick as the Viper off the line, he's obviously not only built up the engine but also the drivetrain (which would break if too much power was applied to it). While building a tough engine, therefore, the guy in the Civic would have had to build a transmission to survive the forces the engine is passing through it. At the same time, he would have changed the gear ratios for acceleration.

      A big strong guy on a bicycle stuck in tenth gear won't out-accelerate a puny guy shifting his derailleur from 1 through 5.

      Having said that, even geared for speed rather than acceleration, a Viper still turns low 13s. That's about 13.2 seconds from stopped to the end of a quarter mile. It's quicker than most production cars, but certainly not fast when you're talking about building for performance. My (stock) 1976 Ram with the 400 (6.6L) engine does it in about 14.8.

      By comparison, I built a Chevette with a Buick 3.8L V6 under the hood. It turned 12.8 seconds on the 1/4 mile - slightly faster than a Viper. But, there's no way it could attain let alone maintain 150MPH the way a Viper could. Buy a Mustang 5.0, slap headers, cam, 4-bbl intake and carb at it, and you're faster off the line than a Viper.

      We still haven't even gotten into a question of driving skill. Lots of people who own Vipers know nothing about cars. They're dot-com CEOs and accountants who don't know anything about cars. Is he sidestepping the clutch to hold the engine at its peak torque curve? If he's not, he's not making full use of the power.

      A V12 getting owned by whatever is in those Rice Burners..

      I'm not sure if it's possible for an inanimate object to possess another inanimate object.

      Last Viper I drove had a V10, actually, rather similar to this one which you can order at the parts counter at any Chrylser dealership. And, while I imagine you understand the concept of cylinders, I will assume that you don't understand the concept of displacement. Here's the relationship in a nutshell: All other things being equal, a Ford 300 inline 6-cylinder would probably outperform a Ford 302 V8. Why? The 6-cylinder motor has two less pistons dragging up and down, two less pairs of valves, two less connecting rod bearings - but still pumps through almost (2 cubic inches difference) as much air as the V8.

      Cylinders are not everything. You don't get your power from having more cylinders, you get it from having more displacement. Cylinders merely divide the displacement into manageable chunks.

      By the way, you'll note that the Viper's motor is 488 cubic inches. About 8.0L.

      Even if the dude in the Viper could not drive worth a shit, as the car approached 100 I am sure the V12 would have quite a bit of influence... If you were correct, then the Viper would have won.

      Yup. Though it does take nearly a quarter of a mile for a Viper to get up to 100MPH from a stop. Most street races are significantly less than that.

      Even so, either the guy in the Honda spent more doing that than it would have cost him to buy a Viper, or the guy in the Viper was the typical Viper-driver.

      Ask yourself this. The Viper has a large displacement engine (488CID) and is rear-wheel-drive. The Honda has a small displacement engine (~95CID, too lazy to calculate it right now) and is front-wheel-drive.

      Virtually all performance cars have a large displacement and are rear-wheel-drive - From Aston-Martin to Vector to Viper, with Porsche, Ferrari, Llamborghini, 1960s-1970s American musclecars, NASCAR, NHRA, serious ralleye, etc. in there.

      Virtually all economy cars have a small displacement and are front-wheel-drive. The Honda is in the same high class as Tercels, Ford Escorts, Renault 5, VW Rabbit, Dodge Aries/Plymouth Reliant, Nissan Micra, etc.

      Ask yourself why.

      Now, go play with your automotive Celeron.

      --
      Fire and Meat. Yummy.
    3. Re:Car Mods, Real Power versus Silly Stickers by wowbagger · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I agree - I drive a Grand Marquis, with the performance pack, and I love the kids who think that "big boat car = slow". They forget that the police drive Crown Victoria's for a reason - a cop friend of mine had his Crown Vic over 130MPH in a pursuit. 4.6l with EFI can move.

      Now, when I have to replace my car, I'd love to get a Grand Marquis Marauder - going from normally aspirated to supercharged would be even better. The only problem is that the Marauder has crap I don't want - leather seats and a very distinctive trim package. I like q-ships - its great fun to surprise a kid with what's under the hood of a normal looking car. Besides, driving an "arrest me red" sportscar gets you far too much attention from the police - they really don't look twice at a sedate-looking sedan, especially one with a 2M antenna and 440MHz antenna on the trunk....

      (and a moment of silence for my previous car - a 1973 Mercury Monterey Custom with a 400 that was killed when the idiots at United Engine Specialists, West Kellog, Wichita, USA botched the engine rebuild and the poor thing oil starved, collapsed it's lifters, ate the #2 intake valve and finally siezed solid 700 miles from home. Needless to say, I don't recomend United Engine Specialist's work.)

    4. Re:Car Mods, Real Power versus Silly Stickers by jedrek · · Score: 3, Interesting

      a cop friend of mine had his Crown Vic over 130MPH in a pursuit. 4.6l with EFI can move.

      What? I don't want to be a troll here, but just last summer me and a friend were doing 150MPH in a basic, unmodified 2.5V6 '94 Opel Omega. That's a V6, 170bhp engine, nothing spectacualar (considering we spent some time the year before putting a BMW M3 E30 tunned to 320bhp through its paces.)

      I'm reading about all these American cars, with huge (5-7l) engines and I don't really see any startling numbers. I know that the M-Series cars from BMW are toned down to be street legal in the US, and it seems that none of the other manufacturers are doing anything special. What's the deal? Has America lost its prowess?

  26. Mod this parent up as funny! by Mustang+Matt · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "My Honda Integra Type R manages about three-four times the power of your big-iron block at the same rev range, not to mention around the same torque."

    ROFL! You do realize that HP is a function of torque at a particular RPM right? Ummm... Not too many 4 bangers have v8 torque at ANY rpm let alone the same rpm.

    --
    The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin