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California + Oracle = $95 Million Fiasco
bahtama writes: "The Sacramento Bee is reporting that California apparently signed an agreement to purchase 95 million dollars worth of Oracle software that they really didn't need and that will not save them as much money as promised. They apparently purchased 270,000 licenses, which is more than all the state workers, including prison guards and others who would never need it." How do you think Oracle would treat the whole country?
California did sign the agreement. Oracle expects them to abide by the contract. California should have thought a bit more before signing, perhaps, but there is no wrongdoing here. If they signed a contract to purchase 270,000 useless copies of Red Hat, no one would be complaining.
Firebird is open source (read: free). It's based on the the well-known InterBase. It probably even outperforms Oracle, while simultaneously being a lot less complicated and buggy. California taxpayers may now commence screaming.
Steve Magruder, Metro Foodist
Are you saying we should just be complacent about it? Yeah, it happens all the time, but that doesn't mean we should get used to it.
slashdot!=valid HTML
The irony of it all: a story lambasting Oracle for its unethical business practices and at the top of the page is an ad for Oracle 9i....
...we are from the government - we are here to help...
We're in a recession and companies are STILL laying people off, yet California has the gall to blow $95M on too many licenses and software they don't need?
Sadly, fiscal responsibility in the government still seems to be generations away. If I still lived in Cali I'd try and get a proposition on the ballot that new expenditures over $(n)M have to be approved by the voter. Ditto for raises for elected officials, we should be able to fire these idiots as easily as we elect them.
Hammer of Truth
It was Logicon the brokered the deal and overstated how much it cost California each year. Sounds like they were actually the bad guys and Oracle is just a nice target.
So the state of California is stupid. They screwed up, cope. Its certainly not Oracle's responsability to make sure they make smart purchases. This kind of thing happens all the time at car dealerships, its just a bigger scale.
And of the $28 million that Logicon scammed, how much of that went to a kickback for the people who signed the contract?
No, there is no difference.
Oracle and California signed a contract, California was really REALLY stupid. I seriously doubt that Larry Ellison made California "an offer they couldn't refuse". Oracle is sure as hell not going to refuse the deal. They are a for profit company that sells software...
It is not the companies responsibility to police its customers. If someone comes to my company and offers us 3x what we normally charge for our services we will happily take the extra cash, so will every other company on the planet.
Caveat emptor...
dewke
Oderint dum metuant
And it will keep happening as long as you give them your money. The only way to stop it is to severely curtail the amount of money that your government has to work with.
I think it's funny the mindset the gov't has gotten us into. If we get a refund, we think we're getting money from the gov't. If we have to pay, we think it's so unfair we're having to pay the gov't.
;-)
Fact of the matter is, you pay both ways. Just in the former case you overpaid (free loan to the gov't), and in the latter case you didn't pay enough (not a free loan though, you may get penalized).
Automatic payroll deduction is one of the nastiest tricks the over-sized government has pulled on us! If we actually had to write out checks each year for the full amount we're *actually* paying, the government realizes there would be a tax revolt that very year. But take out a little each check, and no problem.
What's that example with the frog?
--- witty signature
Does anyone know how much Gov. Davis got in campaign contributions from Larry Ellison and/or Oracle employees?
Then again, given Gov. Davis's views on whose money it is, the $95M in wasted funds doesn't surprise me even if Oracle isn't a big campaign donor.
I realize that you were joking, but what is sad is that most businessmen actually do put a high value on such unethical behaviour.
I'm libertarian because I have no confidence in politicians, and this is a great example of why. Logicron screwed California. Why? As the saying goes, "A fool and his money are easily parted." Unless the fool is a government entity, because they can always raise taxes.
When a company makes a stupid purchase, the company suffers and may go under. Oh, well. A smarter company takes their place.
When a government makes the stupid purchase, taxpayers suffer and the politicians get a couple years to spin their way out of it before facing the next re-election. By then, voters are likely to have forgotten or given up.
The government is run by politicians and politicians are, well, political. Political does not imply any sort of managerial or financial sense.
First off, slow down, people. Read the article properly first. Now let's work out whose fault it was...
:)
:)
Oracle didn't do much wrong. Granted, they have high prices per seat, compared to MySQL, for example, but hey
And yes, they did push the contract through faster than they should. At the same time, the contract was being checked for legal accuracy, not for the pitfall of the incorrect seat numbers, etc. Oracle are also giving a massively reduced seat cost from their norm, which is hardly indicative of bad faith on their part. Remember that they weren't selling directly to the state. None of their sales people were actually approaching the state, rather, the contract, sizes, prices, etc. were being developed between the state and Logicon. Very much like buying a piece of software in a shop. Yes, you might get a reduced price, and that might be due to the manufacturer selling at a special discount to that shop, but if the shop shafts you, it isn't the manufacturer's fault.
Now, in the other hand, the broker, Logicon, was the culprit of the contract terms, and they are taking a huge profit from it. They brokered the specific terms and apparently in quite an agressive manner. Is any large company going to deal with them again? I don't think so...
Finally, the state. Now, maybe it is just me, but in my opinion, the state is reasonably responsible for its own side of the deal. If they order a set number of seats, then if that number is far too high, that is not the problem of the manufacturer, who are merely supplying the requisite licences. If I go out and buy eight copies of Dreamweaver for my only five machines and then complain that the retailer hs sold me three too many copies, despite my asking for that specific number, then where is the blame? Am I not an idiot for doing so?
At the end of the day, okay, Oracle charge high prices, and sometimes they claim more than they can deliver. However, on the issue of this contract, we have an over-zealous broker and an over-stupid group of civil servants.
And yes, the taxpayer would still be much better off if they got MySQL or PostGres and used the money they saved to employ a load of people to maintain it, rather than relying on external tech support lines and things. It would also return the money to the local economy directly and reduce local IT unemployment. Ah well... If management were only intelligent...
I'd be pretty pisssed off if I lived in the state...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
And then don't complain when your civil services go to hell (police response, road conditions, school quality)
Don't get me wrong, these aren't perfect now, but all reducing the money does is choke off the wrong parts of government.
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
>
> Bill Gates (love him or hate him) really hit the nail on the head in his book Business @ The Speed of Thought. It really outlines how technology can be used to increase the flow of information, while at the same time reducing the cost associated with acting on that information.
>
>Maybe someone in the California government will take charge and turn this bad situation into a golden opportunity!
Why would they do that?
If a private sector employer did all its work on paper, having to hire thousands of unskilled workers and pay them benefits, it would have to raise prices (making competing products cheaper, driving its own customers away), or go bankrupt due to the higher expenses.
The government can't go bankrupt -- nor can its customers purchase their services from a competing government. It's a monpoly - not in the Gatesian sense, but in the guys-with-guns sense. You can always dump Windows for Linux, but try explaining that "Joe's Auto Licensing Inc" does a better job than your state DMV the next time you get pulled over and asked to show your driver's license!
The more folks a department in .gov hires, the more important the people who run that department become. The department's inefficient, slow, and costs too much to run? No problem! That just means we need more money! Who cares about the costs, we can always raise taxes, the taxpayer's good for the money.
And besides, what are the taxpayers gonna do, buy their schools, roads, and police and fire departments from someone else? That's illegal! (Whew, good thing we make the laws that control that part, or we'd be fucked! OK, you can buy your schools from someone else if you really wanna, but you still gotta pay for ours :-)
And the other stuff .govs do? Taxpayers buying their diversity training programs and social security and sensitivity classes and unemployment insurance and welfare from someone else? Hey, most people wouldn't buy those things at all. (Gee, also a good thing we can pass laws to make buying those things from us mandatory! :-)
Governments will modernize and eliminate waste when they have an incentive to eliminate that waste. The only incentive that's been shown to motivate such cost reductions is the profit incentive. (Kinda a tautology, no? Only people who care about making money care about not spending it.) The government - by defintion - has no profit incentive. The private sector - again by definition - is all about profit incentive.
So no, nobody in any government will "see this as a golden opportunity", because it's not an opportunity, because doing business at the speed of anything faster than a sloth on valium isn't what governments are about.
And then don't complain when your civil services go to hell (police response, road conditions, school quality)
Are you saying the only way to have enough adequate funding for police is to have so much spare cash that Davis will mispend it on Oracle licenses?
I say tax the people only enough to support the essential services, and force Davis to pay for his own team of lawyers.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
So maryland shoud waste money like california? What's the problem with hiring a good IS Team of 6 people (1 mgr 5 techs) for less than $800K a year and WRITE the app using Open and proven SQL databases? (PosgreSQL can do anything Oracle can) that way they aren't tied by the balls to a vendor, forced to take whatever solution the vendor just threw together and can modify it AT ANY TIME FOR NO ADDITIONAL COST.
it won't happen because #1 government is stupid and hires stupid people.. (we elect stupid people, why should it change inside?)
The first Federal/State/Local laws that should be passed is that a Open/in-house solution must be researched first and left on the table along side all the other bidders.. and THEN it has to be voted on. (Let's see make this salesperson rich, or give 7 people good paying jobs and have complete control of the project... let's make dave here rich....)
it wont happen.. Just like how many corperations wont use open/free solutions (but the Techs do anyways... to hell with the CTO he dont know crap) until they see that they have been all along because of their employees did it silently.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
If we actually had to write out checks each year for the full amount we're *actually* paying, the government realizes there would be a tax revolt that very year. But take out a little each check, and no problem.
When you fill out your 1040, it's BLATANTLY OBVIOUS how much you've paid.
For example, an MD friend of mine paid over 100,000 US Dollars in federal income taxes this year. Plus about $30,000 in property taxes, state and local income taxes.
I don't know much about his spending habits, but let's say he put $20,000 in the bank, and spent his remaining $150,000 on taxable goods and services. That means he also paid $10,500 in sales tax in his county. (In this case, he has no car or mortgage payments.)
So at the end of the year, he's paid almost a full half of his income to "the government." That is not American, my friends, that sounds like something the damn socialist frenchies and poppycockers overseas would do. (I love you guys, but your taxes suck even worse than ours. But not much.)
So when my wife's co-workers quit their jobs to raise babies (five of them in the past 18 months) and get public assistance in medical benefits, food, income, subsidized housing, etc... they tell us "The Government is taking care of me! It is great!" (My sister has also done this, twice.)
Bullshit. My father and I are paying for you to sit on your ass and watch Oprah and smoke Menthol Lights next to your newborn. And to get medical care. And to buy orange juice with food stamps so you can save your baby shower money for important stuff... like another carton of Menthols. These idiots think the government just "makes" the money... the clue train never bothers making a stop between their ears.
Sorry to be such a 20-something curmudgeon. Obviously not all people on public assistance are like this; just most of them. Get knocked up by your cousin's boyfriend and skate it out from there. No marriage, no commitment, no work, no worries. And they are OK with it, because the government is taking care of them. And you and I are paying for it. Yes we need social services, but we have bred an entire generation or subculture of people who can now live by the hard work of others who make btter decisions and handle the consequences to their actions without whining.
If you're in the US, and haven't had the pleasure of dealing with people like this yet, take a couple trips to WalMart at 2:00pm and see if you can apply this tale to the runny-nosed crotch-fruit being dragged around by some "poor, bedraggled" mommy. She has a vacant look on her face, you know why? She doesn't have to care anymore. About anything.
Except how to afford that next box of Menthols.
SlashSigTheorem: Humorous, Political, Critical, Constructive- If you have a
You know, perhaps it's a good thing that we have a government that provides services and doesn't have to levy troops to put down a freaking tax revolt every April. Go ahead and complain about how high taxes are, but do you think you'd be reading /. right now if ARPA had never existed? The government does use our money in worthwile ways that would never occur to us individually.
This sig is not the Zahir. Lucky for you.
"Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
"Hey! If you don't like it; go to Russia!"
The sad thing is, Russia's becoming more and more like what the US is becoming less and less of...
Actually, I agree with you that my post up there probably wasn't worthy of a 4. A 3, tops. I don't generally follow campaign finance - which is why I asked if there was a connection between any Ellison-funded PACs and the Davis campaign. I figured someone would point me in the right direction - thanks for finding the info. As you point out, Oracle/Ellison doesn't show up in the top 25.)
As for bias, sure, I'm biased. I believe that Davis views his time as Governor of California as nothing more than a fundraising venue for an upcoming Presidential bid. I believe that's wrong from the point of view of providing sound management to Californians.
I further believe that when a politician starts to blather about how "the rich" aren't paying "their fair share", that they're looking to jack up taxes on the middle class to spend on their own pet projects.
In 1999 we reached at the point, federally, where the bottom 50% of the income curve pays 4% of the taxes, yet can outvote the top 50% of the income curve footing the other 96% of the bill. I believe that to be a recipe for long-term disaster for prudent fiscal policy - regardless of the party in power.
Finally, I believe that Davis' track record of mismanagement (MTBE will save the environment, bring it in! No, MTBE is bad, take it out! Each time, gouging oil companies for campaign funds with threatened legislation. Big power companies are gouging you! Let's sign long-term contracts that'll bankrupt us! No, that'll bankrupt them! No, let's bail 'em out!) speaks for itself.
I admire and respect Davis' skills as a master fundraiser and shrewd politician. His attacks on Riordan in the Republican primaries have given him a much easier opponent, as he can characterize Simon as "a millionaire", which rings very strongly as "an evil person" with his voting base. I don't for an instant think Simon has a hope in hell of unseating him.
(Of course, I don't think Riordan would have won either. At least the Davis/Simon matchup will be fun to watch this fall. A Davis/Riordan battle would have put me to sleep. So I'm actually looking forward to the this fall, as the campaign promises to be a great old-fashioned slugfest of ideas. I'm stocking up on popcorn and potato chips as I speak :-)
It's time for some Q&A.Let's start with familiar /. lore.
Q. Who invented the Internet?
A. The US federal gummint (DARPA)
Q. On whose dime?
A. The US taxpayers'
Q. What industry occupies the largest portion of the US federal government's trillions of dollars in expenditures?
A. Defense. 35% in 2001. Welfare and other means-tested entitlments were 6%.
Q. What has the US Dept. of Defense been focusing on since the end of the Cold War? A. Technology - computerized planes, satellites, drones, tanks, etc. Read any Afghanistan story in the Washington Post or New York Times, or any other major newspaper, and you will hear nothing but raves about our high-tech military.
Q. And who does that money employ?
A. Engineers, technologists, programmers.
Q. What do they make on average?
A. A starting salary of $60K, if not more
Q. Wow, Eric, sounds like the geeks get the most welfare of all! Why do you think they complain so much?
A. (stumped)
And don't even dare to complain how hard it is to figure out what the government spends - it took me 6 seconds to find the US budget. Whew!
Krazy Larry? Why, he wants to make the U.S. his bitch! Not that I'm any fan of Billy and his gang of thieves but I'd be much more worried about ol' Krazy Larry and what he's up to. His push for a national ID system is just plain scary.
I think this depends on what you're looking at. Sure, when typing up a simple memo, this can take a lot more work, depending on what the person producing it wants or needs. However, take a look at the other side. Simple, or even very complex, documents can be created with relative ease thanks to modern tools. I'm not just talking about Word, but TeX, PowerPoint, Arcview, Excel, and the whole host of other programs. The types of documents made by these programs are generally more complex, and time is saved overall in making them. If it takes the same amount of time to create the thing, then often more work is put in to the content itself or the appearance. Granted, they are often overkill for something simple, but the options are there to manage complexity.
It is, by the way, complexity that the parent post is talking about. Being able to increase the flow of information by putting information in a figure as well as text, or automatically generating a reference in LyX, or adding an easy scatter plot for your data with Excel. You simply can't do these things with a typewriter. Modern technology allows us to stream more information at people than ever before, and while this does have its obvious and many downsides, I don't think that the fact can be ignored.
And while you're right about the increased work hours, I don't feel that you can blame technology for it. After all, if we really wanted to work less, we would. But we don't, and we can't. The overall psyche of the nation is tooled in such a way that we have to work 60, 70, and 80 hour workweeks on average, no matter the consequences. This isn't because of technology, it's the modern mindset that is the cause of this, which runs far deeper.
"I may not have morals, but I have standards."
Read it again. It's "software maintenance", not systems maintenance or IT support. I suspect that what they're talking about is the cost for paid upgrades and vendor support contracts on the software, not staffing costs. Salaries likely come out of a completely different pile of money.
A. The geeks actually do work for a living. And a technological military saves lives. So, aside from your massive number crunching mistakes, such as not counting various other types of money sucking social programs, and your total ignorance that private companies and universities have been paying for, and innovating the internet for 30 years, you're still a clueless wonder.
Oh yeah. And I've realized why you don't like to flame. You're terrible!
Um, Bullshit on you. Look at gross proceeds:
4Q01: 2.357 BILLION
3Q01: 2.242 BILLION
2Q01: 3.263 BILLION
1Q01: 2.674 BILLION
That's an average tax rate of 12.9% on gross income.
When's the last time anyone who isn't on WIC paid only 12.9% federal tax on their gross income after deductions?
Putting the sig back into +1, Insightful since 1995!