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Setting up an Internet Cafe?
"What kind of set up did you start off with: 10 computers, 256kbit DSL, a dedicated T3 or something else? I am currently looking at 8 computers with some form of DSL (this should be the most cost effective solution). Cable might be available, but it depends on the location.
This internet cafe is primarily aimed at gamers, and I am interested to know how much success small internet cafes have had with bulk software purchases (say X = number of computers (8 to 10), X licenses for Half-Life and X licenses for Starcraft etc). I think I can get into contact with suppliers in Australia, but X licenses may still not be enough to be bulk. What suppliers (in the Australia/Pacific region) have other internet cafes delt with and bought software from? Please pass along any lessons learned if so.
What kind of times are the most popular? Being open all day costs a lot, so I was thinking of being open 5~6pm to about 11pm, seven days a week, and also having an 'all night special' on friday nights. What times do you run your internet cafe? What kind of special all night things do you have? For the readers out there, what times would be optimal for you and what kind of 'specials' would you want?
I am also interested how you deal with security. I have been thinking of basically hiring a bouncer to deal with gatecrashers and such (but this is rather expensive). Is security this much of a problem? I mean, how do you deal with a car of five drugged and drunken idiots intent on (as in smashing window/door down intent) getting some counterstrike goodness (or just seeing what happens when you stick someones head inside a broken monitor)? Do internet cafes attract this kind of person? I was talking to my parents, and they were saying that drunken people just drive around looking for a joint to gatecrash, and being open at 11pm just sounds like trouble to me. So does your internet cafe hire bouncers or some other form of security?
I had thought I would get people to 'register' first, and then book appointments beforehand - perhaps even some sort of video security system on the front door (or maybe even fingerprint ID/keycards). Has anyone tried anything like this and has it been successful? Can you recommend any such systems in existence? Any kind of 'register' before use system will always cause hassles for new users, and put off the casual gamer, which is also a problem...
The security situation also has a lot to do with location. I am currently looking at an area close to the local university, and also a location within the university. Getting a site within university would solve a lot of the security problems (university has its own security staff) so this would help, but I am not sure if there is a space currently for rent.
What kind of system should I run? Obviously
most games are only going to run on windows, (and wine is a bitch, and imagine the bitchiness multiplied out against X machines), but I don't want to buy windows licenses (and I also don't want to pirate software) so where can I pick up some second hand windows 98SE licenses for a small cost? Would it be legal, if I was to advertise I will pay $20 for your win98SE license? Or would I be better off buying X licenses for Micro$oft Super Advanced Multigaming iExecution eServer Special Edition?
Anyway, I am not sure I have even thought through all the issues yet, and I am sure there may be something I have forgotten something, but this is just an idea I had, and the figures work out pretty nicely on paper, for a student income ^_^.
If you have any suggestions, please write me! I will be very interested to hear what you think.
Samuel Williams
coolfr3ak@gmx.net
http://utopia5.mine.nu/"
Is there really a market for internet cafes anymore? They used to be popular when people could not or did not want to afford a decent internet connection at home. While internet cafes are a booming in china, they seem to be on the decline in countries with better infrastructure. Have you investigated if there really is demand for what you are going to do?
Don't Universities offer Internet access to their students anyway?
As far as Univerity-wide gaming bans are concerned, there's always a way around it...
"Why did they cancel my favorite Sci-Fi show? I downloaded ALL the episodes!"
You're worrying too much about software licensing costs. It is certainly a big sum which has to be paid in advance, but the running costs, especially for employees, are probably dwarfing the software costs pretty quickly. Do the math. Oh, and don't think too big when Slashdot is your primary source of information for these basic questions and you have no experience in this field.
By far the best internet cafe I've been to is one in Cambridge, UK, called CB1.
The reason it was great is that it was a viable business as a cafe, as a second-hand bookshop and as an internet access point, or ANY SINGLE ONE of those.
In fact, the computers almost seemed like an afterthought. The first day I went there, I was greeted by the proprietor behind the bar with a smile and friendly conversation, with no pressure to buy coffee, books or internet time. I stayed for hours, and came back the next day (and the day after, etc.)
I ended up spending most of my summer holiday hanging out there, getting to know the regulars, helping out with all the newbies, playing chess and reading the daily newspaper freely supplied.
A number of the regulars were reasonably big names in the Cambridge internet community, who just found this place to hang out at, where they could check their email occasionally, just in case.
We were all techie types, attracted initially by the internet connectivity (this was back in 1995!), but kept there by the friendly atmosphere. Think of it like 'Central Perk' on 'Friends'.
From what Dan (the proprietor) said, the business was profitable from day one.
In comparison, the worst types of internet cafe are the heavily chromed and exposed cable ducting places like Cyberia, which were sterile, unfriendly places.
I don't think you can make money from internet connectivity alone, but treat it as an added feature to an already viable friendly meeting place and cafe, and you're onto a winner.
From the way the submitter frames it, he sounds like he is pursuing this more as a community thing than as a profitable business. In that case, a lot of what he is saying seems reasonable.. "cost effective" dsl vs cable, licensing costs. It would be interesting to see a club (maybe a LUG or similar?) try to create a not-for-profit internet cafe, perhaps a monthly membership almost like a Geek Country Club or something ;)
Has anyone tried anything like that?
If you want to give people Internet access, then spring for either Xterms booting off a central server, or Windows CE terminals booting off of a Windows Terminal Server. Maybe provide both so that people can use the web browser they prefer.
Both of those scenarios allow you to easily set up security. (Dig all you want at WTS, but many web sites are "Internet Explorer" only, and using WTS terminals is the only way to prevent Joe Hacker from hacking the box.)
Find someone who's familiar with running something like a Starbucks or other coffee house, and get them to do the food side of the biz. Or pay them a consulting fee. People stay longer if there's food and caffeiene. Don't forget books and newspapers for the chronic reader types.
"since the screens don't look just like Windows"
http://www.qvwm.org/
However as he wants to do games too, only a handfull will run on linux. Sure, use linux as the backend ftp/router etc. But keep the front end windows.
However yes, an internet only terminal doesnt matter if its ie, mozilla or konqueror - as long as they are all set up correctly (flash etc) and there arent any sites that eont work, or need fiddling to work in linux.
Most consumer grade DSL and Cable Acceptable Use Policies prohibit re-selling of the service.
Something for you to think about before you start charging by the hour for bandwidth.
An established cafe (as in coffee) here, which happens to be across the street from a university, has just begun offering network access, yet they provide no computers.
The cafe got a DSL line and simply provides ethernet jacks to it's customers for very reasonable prices. The customers pay 4.00 USD to have all-day access and can pay 16.00 USD for all-week access. Students bring in their laptop computers, pay their fee, sit down and plug in.
The beautiful thing is that students can browse the web but can also play net games over the local ethernet and the cafe does not have to pay for expensive computers and the software licenses, only for the DSL line and the network switch and cable and jacks.
It seems to be working out very well. The cafe has noticed that the environment is now more studious with people sitting longer and drinking more coffee. If they spill coffee on the keyboard, at least it is their computer and not yours.
Ouch! The truth hurts!
No, it's not.
Asking for information on how to best complete a task is one thing - asking for answers for every significant question relating to setting up a business is quite another.
If he'd asked what sort of connection the hardcore gamers preferred (and why), or what services made people come back, or what games people liked, what drinks people bought, that sort of thing I wouldn't have a problem. But he's looking for all that and then some, plus pricing information on competitors' relationships with suppliers! Clearly, he hasn't thought through a lot of the basics or done the maths.
He's almost asking us to write his businessplan. Sorry, but that's not what Ask Slashdot is for.
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
Anyway, my suggestions in a much shorter version:
-- http://www.MarkWelch.com/ Pleasanton California
Hi,
:-)
I worked at in Internet cafe in 1994-5.
First off, if you are serious about the cafe bit, you've got a lot more work to do. You'll need a license to sell food and drink, you'll need hygeine certificates, someone to wash up, and a lot of money for the kitchen fittings, cappucino machine etc. etc.
So, think hard about if you want to offer 'real' food. You might find a refrigerated cabinet with cans of soft drinks and maybe sandwiches etc. is a whole lot easier.
Secondly, the computers. Different users have massively different needs. Take a look at easyeverything in the UK (http://www.easyeverything.com/). They have about 500 terminals in a single building, and they cater for people who want to use the Internet. No games, no paninni, no comfy chairs and sofas. They are open 24hrs. They are dirt cheap. (as in 1 UKPS / 2-3hrs at low demand times).
The cafe I worked in catered for the small time user - people who maybe needed their CV printed, or wanted to check flight prices, and didn't have a PC at home. Those people suck. They often need help to do stuff, they don't hang around long, and they aren't rich.
Game cafe's can work, but think about how much people are willing to pay. Is DSL common / cheap in your area? If so, many may be fine playing at home. Are there lots of kids in the area that maybe can't afford the latest games, but could afford to play a few hours at a time?
I never ran a game cafe (unless you count MUDs, and many of our best customers were kids playing MUDs). However I would guess:
1. Hardware turnover. Gamers tend to be brutal to keyboards, mice and joysticks, but they'll expect them to be in top condition. Likewise, they'll expect monitors in good condition. think about replacement costs.
2. Games eat bandwidth. 8 ppl playing half-life is a load more bandwidth than 8 ppl using hotmail.
3. The cafe I worked in stayed open till 11, and it wasn't a great part of town, either. We never had any trouble at all. Unless you are downtown in a bad area, and maybe placed very near a local kids hangout, you shouldn't have trouble.
4. Insurances costs were massive, and the insurers demanded very expensive locks / alarms to be fitted.
5. Dead time eats your profits very fast. You pay the same rent regardless of what your openning hours are.
6. Technology is the least of your worries, just keep it simple. I'd tell anyone who's thinking Linux and thin clients and anything sexy and clever to head over to the real world, then head over to easyeverything.com to see how to do it properly.
7. People will ask for printing/CD-Rom burning/Floppy access etc so decide in advance how/if you are going to offer it.
8. Don't invest anything in a small business like this that you can't afford to lose. 2/3 of small businesses fail within a year.
Mail me if you want more info.
-----
but that's not what Ask Slashdot is for.
IANAL, but I believe its for free legal advice!
I've set up and run a cybercafe in the past so I'll try to provide some feedback for you.
.7 since you also have to pay the owner 30% of your gross for running the store and such
.7 = $8266 Year
"Pure" cybercafe's do not make money on their computers. Primarily income is made on the food and drinks served at the cybercafe, with the computers are most breaking even...
Generally connection costs will eat any money that you bring in to run the computers.
Internet gaming computers can make money, but most games currently coming out have a prohibition against rental or use in a cybercafe setting. Furthermore, contacting companies to get a cybercafe license you find that there is no such license. Activision for one is a big one that does this... There is a prohibition against use in a cybercafe and contacting Activision itself you discover that Activision doesn't see a market there and has no provisions for licensing to a cybercafe... Activision is just an example, but most companies are like this.
So in general your only choice is trying to either a) operate beneath the gaming company's radar level. ie just giving the games out for use on systems. Or b) hiring a lawyer to help work around the legal issues.
Certain states in the US, treat computer software as a book. As long as you have the licenses you can have people playing the games on your systems. The state will not recognize the eula probition against rent, resale, or cybercafe's. A lawyer is needed to provide at least basic protection.
I recommend not trying to support yourself by operating beneath the radar, therefore if you want to run the cybercafe as a business venture, definately get a lawyer.
That's all I can say about legal issues.
Technical issues:
Internet connection... I feel that the internet connection is very important in a cybercafe... The ability to contact the net and play online games is important. However when you set up this type of connection understand that most firewalls that you place between your machines and the internet are going to block some access to systems... Getting IP addresses for each of your machines rather than using NAT will help this to some degree. When I first set up my cybercafe I went with a full T1 and a C block of ip addresses and did not place a firewall between the systems and the net.... When doing this though, you need to understand that your machines will be compromised/hacked and will require frequent reinstalls. Generally once or twice a week.... In order to do this I set up an inactive partition with a copy of the standard install made with norton ghost... In order to rebuild the system I made a disk that fdisked and set the partition active, installed the drive image and then fdisked the partition inactive... Took about 20 minutes, but was simple enough any of the staff could do it.
In order to keep track of your users time, you can try to do it by hand, which requires a lot of administrative overhead from your staff. Or you can go with an automated system. The one that I used at the type was Cybertime. www.cybertime.com may be the url haven't checked it in a while.... If I were doing it now, I would probably write a small website and stick it in a linux box to act as a router... When people go to log in, they have to go to the website and sign in... The linux box receives their request and rewrites the routing tables to allow access to the web. Basically only routing traffic to the box when someone is logged in...
Other technical considerations... You might want to try setting up some linux boxes, but if your doing games you basically will have to run windows.
Marketing Considerations:
I mentioned before "PURE" cybercafes do not make money the food and drinks are what make money... If you want you computers to make money you need to create a community to use the computer systems. Web browsers don't have much of a community, gamers do... As long as your computers are fairly decent, people will come in to play against and with one another and will draw in their friends..... Rather than try to launch your own cybercafe without a support group especially when you are just starting out, instead try to get your computers installed into a business that already has a fairly good customer base... My cybercafe was installed in a Warhammer gaming store, when people were not playing minitures or RPG games they would generally sit down and play on the computers for a while... I'd highly recommend installing the systems in some type of business where people come to socialize rather than trying to start your own place from scratch.
Games... Games are important.... Diablo, Starcraft and Counter-strike were the games that people came in to play the most.... Basically look for games where teamwork helps out and the games take some time to play. Running your own local servers is also a necessity, which also means that people from the net need to be able to reach those servers, see technical... Generally with 6 gaming systems I made weekly trips to the computer store and bought 2 copies of most multiplayer games... If during the first week the games did well, I would return and buy 4 more copies for the rest of the systems.
Featured games... Tuesday nights were generally slow, because of this, I made Tuesdays a free night where people could come in and just get on the systems for an hour free... If all computer were full, they either waited an hour for someone to get off or could pay, and bump one of the people playing for free.
Thursdays, while not extremely slow, I decided to make featured game night.... Where people could come in and play 1 specific game for free. If they wanted to play a different game, or wanted on a system, they could of course pay....
One other thing... Most people would not sit down to play on a computer unless someone else was already playing... Leaving 1 "free" machine all the time insures that someone will play most of the time... Which will encourage others to sit down and play. When all other computers are in use and a paying customer wants the free computer he gets it.
To paraphase: Try to establish your systems in a location that already has a community.
To increase your computer usage, try to get people involved with the games, by giving away some freebee time on specific slow nights and get your customers "hooked"... If you can get them involved you chances of becoming profitable are greatly increased.
Business Concerns:
First, if you take my marketing advice and install into a location that already is established, just offering computer use you won't have to worry about quite a few things, which will make your life easier.
First Salaries and employees... If you place yourself into an established business, it already has employees of it's own who can take money and add time to various user accounts... Basically these tasks are simple and thus minor training is necessary to get up and running... If a system has problems a reboot will generally fix the problem or at most sticking in the disk to recopy the image. For other problems, the employees can call you to come in an fix... and just stick a note on the computer that it is out of order until you can get in to fix it.
Doing this, you are going to probably have to pay the owner some type of income from the systems...
My advice is a 30/70 split... You will be shouldering all costs, such as new equipment, internet connection, new games etc. And a 30/70 split seems fair in my opinion.
Under this situation bill the owner either bi-weekly or monthly. Your user setup times should show how much time was paid for during the week.
Pricing...
First I recommend selling blocks of time in advance, don't try to get the customers to pay after they use their time and don't refund unused time...
For myself I used the following pricing scheme:
$5/hr
$20/5 hours
$20/ day pass... Basically play all day for $20 this differs from the $20/5hours in that the 5 hours are usable anytime... however the $20/day meant that customers had full access for 10 hours. most people generally paid $20 and played 3-6 hours before having to leave... It generally was not abused
$50/ Week pass Pretty good deal for those users that came in fairly regularly...
$150/Month pass
$600/Year Pass
When I originally started I charged $4/hour but had no internet connection... I was profitable after 3 months(ignoring startup costs) When I added internet I raise prices by $1 hour and it took 5 months building my customer base to the point where the internet connection was paying for itself...
Calculations for determining price of computers:
I based by price on the following calculations:
Computers should be replaced every 2 years: (Note system costs are far less now than they were a couple of years ago...)
S = System Costs $2500/ 2 = $1250/Year
The computers take up floorspace... I generally figured this as a 3'x4' aread 12 sq ft. Then determined how much the floorspace cost.
12 * $12/square foot per year = $144
Figure out how much each square foot needs to make per year. The business owner might have an actual number. I just multiplied by 5 to account for electricity, maintenance, etc.
$144 * 5 = $720/Year
Your costs, figure 2 Hours a week, service and 1 hour a week at computer store 3hours @ $30/hour * 52 weeks
3 * 30 * 52 = $4680/Year
Divide that by number of systems (5 pay + 1 free = 5)
$4680/5 = $936/year
Internet connection
$1200/mnt * 12 Months = 14400
Divided by systems
14400/5 = $2880/Year
Add up costs
$1250 System
$ 720 Floorspace
$ 936 Technical support
$2880 Internet connection
$5786/Year
Divide by your percentage
5786 /
So we have to make $8266 year just to pay for the machines
Number of estimated hours in use per week 30
number of weeks 52
30*52 = 1560 hours/year
Our price per hours ends up being
$5.29 / hour
I charged a little less since I was just guesstimating in the beginning, luckily I was close to actual costs...
In the end, I ended up closing the cafe because the owner stopped paying me. He had outside bills and was using my income in order to pay those bills...
At the end of 2 years the machines were bringing in around $800/month each which while making a profit, I was spending about $200/month in new games per each machine and thus was only making a small profit per month.
Hope that helps
/* TODO: Spawn child process, interest child in technology, have child write a new sig */
IMHO, Ask Slashdot is a forum to ask anything about the computer/geek world in general. This man isn't asking us to write his business plan, he already has a partial business plan (note that for just about every question he provides his current solution). Perhaps he wants some feedback to reassure himself that he's taking the correct steps. Maybe someone will suggest something he hasn't thought of. Either way, Ask Slashdot is exactly the forum for this question.
Let's say he DOES want us to create a business plan for him...what's wrong with that? Feel like it's giving away company secrets? Don't post. Feel like he should be doing the research himself? Don't post. Were I starting a business that revolved around computer people as the main clientele, Slashdot would be one of the first places I checked for resources, if for no other reason than because it has a large base of intelligent users.
My $.02, that's all...where would you suggest he go to find this information?
--trb
Considered getting 20-30 identical PC's, networking them together with a fat pipe out to the net, and letting people game to their hearts content for $X per hour. Then I got to thinking about security, and punks getting out of line when someone takes them to school in the latest FPS. I don't want to be a replacement parent to a bunch of kids, nor do I want to be a truant officer, wondering why my best customers aren't in school.
Then I considered the parents themselves....the people who would be there open to close, dumping their grocery and rent money on Evercrack instead of providing for their families (trust me, video game addiction, while isolated, is real!) I think that would cause me a lot of guilt....bartenders I have known have commented on this...taking money to feed an addiction when they know that other people NEED that money far more than the drinker...I digress....
While 95% of the business would probably fun and educational, the other 5% could be a serious downer to the whole thing. My $0.02 only...
Well, since Cliff is in charge of Ask.Slashdot.org, and he decided to post it, then clearly that is what it is for, or else he wouldn't have posted it.
(Attention moderators: this comment is offtopic and you won't hurt my feeling moderating it as such.)
Hilary Rosen's speech was about her love of money and her desire to roll around naked in a pile of money.
One of the points mention was opening only outside normal working hours in the evenings.
However, from experience (6 years working in a cybercafe) people visiting Cyber Cafes fit into neat groups:
* Students. - Email (LOTS of Hotmail) mostly in an afternoon after college before pubs.
* Job Seekers. - Email/JobSites. Again, daytime users mostly.
* Travelers. - People all over the world keeping in touch via Hotmail mostly. They don't know the area, so are more likely to act on impulse while doing other things (Like shopping) and seeing you open. (But will revisit once they know about you)
* Kids. - Chat and trying to look at p0rn. Weekends and holidays when their parents want them out the way for a while.
* Shifty Guys Looking for P0rn. - Im not joking!
* Old People Contacting Grandchildren. - Daytime users once more. And require help more then others. But, once they get into it, if you help them. They will come back alot.
Now, this was in a (Large) town, not a city. So the dynamic might change. In London, I found they all night Cyber Cafe VERY handy when discovering Id missed the last tube and wanted to get online anyway and it was busy (Tho it was only a pound for 11pm till 7am!)
I saw the light at the end of the tunnel... But it was just someone with a flashlight bringing more work.
Actually, OpenBSD 3.1 with KDE 3.0 is felt much ;)
easier to use than Windows by Windows users.
I have made this experience oftenly the last few
days, when I finished compiling (on a 3.1-current
system actually
StarCraft ought to run under Wine on OpenBSD, too,
and since it is a Win95/P-90/16MB game, it probably
will even run smoothly.
Sound isn't a problem either.
My Karma isn't excellent, damn it! (And
OK, so I have never even been to an internet cafe, but I think this idea might work.
Offer a back room for hire. This would be an isolated lan (optionally connected) with about 12-20 lan points dotted around the room and a matching number of desks and chairs.
You could hire it out for training courses, lan parties, or small user group meetings. If you had some spare machines, you could even run some basic courses yourself.
You could also use it to run $FRAGFEST tournaments for your regular gamers, offering free 'net time as prizes. (What rabid gamer wouldn't LOVE the chance to frag for bandwidth?)
During the off hours, leave it connected and let people bring in their laptops and do their research, correspondence or whatever.
Ahh - My eye!
The doctor said I'm not supposed to get Slashdot in it!
So if Cliff posted an Ask Slashdot topic on, say, what was declarable on a tax return, or how to solve a problem we'd been set in an assignment, you'd find that OK?
Ask Slashdot has always seemed to be about problems that afflict the Slashdot community as a whole and so where we may be able to offer advice. This often includes 'is something legal?' type questions.
But look, this guy wants a businessplan writing via Slashdot. He's not asking a single question (which Ask Slashdot seems to normally be), or posting reeally techy stuff.
Look, it's been said before, Cliff may not be the sharpest editor. He posts lots of daft questions and tends to post in fits and starts. He may well be doing this as a hobby, I honestly don't know - but the fact is, Slashdot is now a commercial site and could do with better quality contributions than this. It shouldn't have been published, bluntly, and we can't just say that Cliff's word is gospel.
Greg
(Inside a nuclear plant)
Aaaarrrggh! Run! The canary has mutated!
What kind of system should I run? Obviously most games are only going to run on windows, (and wine is a bitch, and imagine the bitchiness multiplied out against X machines), but I don't want to buy windows licenses.
Dear slashdot. I don't want to steal, but I may have to. Please help me justify my theft!
This person appears to have done absolutely no research, yet wants to set up a business. They say 50% of all businesses fail? Well, here's one for that half...
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Yet you completely overlook the computer/network security side of things. Why on earth would you need a bouncer in an Internet cafe? Wouldn't you rather concern yourself with more important shit, such as people using your computers to launch relatively anonymous attacks on other parts of the Internet? What about people installing software without your approval? How will you deal with users who know more about your computers and operating systems than you do? What if they successfully access the machine that has the business' financial information on it? (Since you're so naiive, I'm guessing you'd network that machine, too.) Would you firewall anything? Would you encrypt anything?
The more I read this Ask Slashdot, the sadder I become. I must go.
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
"Okay" implies a moral or taste judgement. You said "this is not what Ask Slashdot is for". Since Cliff makes up what AS *is*, what he posts defines what AS is. So, it may not be okay (YMMV), but it is what Ask Slashdot is for.
--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien