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ReplayTV Switches To Subscription Model For New Unit
aclute writes "ReplayTV is going to move to a subscription-fee for it's new 4500 series in order to "meet the needs of national electronics retailers with lower overall costs and increased promotional opportunities" and "ensure the long-term success of our ReplayTV retail strategy". No talk yet of the cost or a lifetime/yearly option yet. Looks like TiVo might have had the right idea after all." I still want to get a 4500, but the vendor lockin with someone who's being sued by *everyone* does throw some cold water on desire for the machine.
Guess I'll be getting that Pong marathon off Kazaa...
(2,3-Benzopyrrole)
They had the correct model. Perhaps it wont be so bad-if they have a lifetime/yearly option.
Just a question. Maybe someone knows the answer. Why don't any of these Tivo-like devices just use the G-Guide listings, like new RCA TV's do? They come right over the cable--I think all PBS stations broadcast this information. There are a few ads, though.
Retailers expect a given profit margin as a percentage of the sales price. If lifetime service is bundled into the sales price, then you have to inflate the service price to cover the retailer's profit. By selling it direct to the consumer, you don't have to mark it up.
They didn't cut off my service when they replaced the 2020 with the 3030 and 3060. They didn't cut me off when they switched to the 4xxx series. I would be shocked if they decided to cut us off later, especially considering that the price of the units was essentially including a lifetime subscription fee.
It's all about profitability for SONICblue, and they're counting on long-term customers who feel better about spreading out the cost of the service versus paying up front for a lifetime subscription.
Assuming a lower cost barrier to entry and an ease of unsubscribing with no penalties, it benefits consumers to buy into this model. Consider a better, newer, faster, cheaper technology coming out in 1 year. If the consumer has paid less for the Replay 4500 + 1 year subscription than they would have invested with a lifetime-subscription Replay, they have more incentive to break away and invest in the new technology.
SONICblue's home is that they are the ones making that better-faster-cheaper technology and roping in existing subscribers to it. They may be too slow, however, as they'll also be concerned with sustaining their Replay business as well.
I predict a fleet-footed R&D-focused company will edge them out in 1-2 years on this subscription model.
This new pricing model does not apply to SONICblue's current ReplayTV 4000 or to prior offerings, which will continue to include a lifetime service subscription
Sounds to me like they plan to continue support for the 4000. End of Life does not mean that they will stop supporting it as if it never existed. It just means they will pull it from retail shelves to favor the 4500 and their new subscription policy.
There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
:wq
There is not as of yet. The rumors over on AVSForum are that the new model, previously believed to be the 5000 series, are aimed more towards the common consumer. The biggest manifestation of this is rumored to be the activation of the modem (ReplayTV 4000s have an RJ11 jack, but it's disabled) to eliminate the need for a home network. That the lifetime subscription is not built in to the price is also indicative of this.
Now, come on that can't be true. I mean, right here in my list of "People I'm Currently Suing" I don't even se... oh... wait, there they are. Ooops... guess you're right.
They've said nothing about the details of the pricing model. With any luck, they'll enable both modem and ethernet ports so you can get updates either way. With such a setup, they should charge a lower price for the ethernet-based updates, as they don't have to pay Earthlink (I think that's the ISP they contract with) for the dialups.
And everyone wants them to offer a lifetime subscription for those of us who hate monthly fees.
Computer based PVRs are looking better and better.
Try out ShowShifter.
-twb
They'll end up just like mobile phones, it seems:
" Free phone with every packet of cornflakes!* "
*Subscription required, minimum 1 year at £15 per month
but the vendor lockin with someone who's being sued by *everyone* does throw some cold water on desire for the machine.
The lawsuits indicate a long-standing philosophical difference between TiVo and ReplayTV. When both companies released their first products (within a month of each other, I believe), ReplayTV had a 30-second skip button for instantly jumping over commercials, and TiVo said they would not include such a feature to avoid annoying the networks.
Now ReplayTV 4000 units include more consumer-friendly features that are even more annoying to the networks. They include automatic commercial skipping (the same technology found in some VCRs for detecting commercials). And once you record something, you can send it to a friend's ReplayTV unit using the Internet.
If anything, the lawsuits are a reason to get a ReplayTV instead of a TiVo. You'll be supporting a company that is pushing the best technology they can; if it forces the networks to rethink their revenue model, that's a problem for the networks to deal with.
And even if for some reason the networks win their lawsuit, all it is likely to mean is that there will be a software update to disable whatever feature the court rules is illegal.
Because I'm damn sick and tired of clueless ReplayTV users trying to tell me their DVR is better than my TiVo because they think they aren't paying for subscriptions. (That's because they paid for it up-front in the cost of the unit, but now the point is moot.)
But the the lovley folks have mirrored it :)
I will never buy any product from SONICblue again, although I already have a 3060 (and am satisfied with it as a functional PVR).
A friend of mine had a 3060 (a 60 hour replaytv) that failed. He sent it in for repair (this was after SONICblue bought replaytv). When they returned a replacement he didn't immediately open the box -- he didn't need it for a few months. When the box was finally opened, there was a 2020 (a 20 hour version - of the previous generation) inside.
When he called their support to straighten it out, they accused him of trying to swindle them. Months later, the matter still isn't resolved.
As far as them changing their pricing model - I don't care. I don't care if they go down in flames. I don't care if one day my 3060 can't connect because they've gone bust. There are plenty of competing products of equal or better capability -- so who cares if a company with crappy service disappears.
Computer-based solutions will always be a niche market. People don't want to leave their computers on all the time. People don't want to connect their computers to their home theaters. Sure, most people here think it is cool, but we're not most people.
SONICblue To Implement Service-Based Pricing Model For New ReplayTV Products; New Model Uncouples Service Fees From Retail Pricing to Better Meet Retailers' Needs
April 25, 2002 08:03:00 AM ET
SANTA CLARA, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--April 25, 2002-- SONICblue(TM) Incorporated SBLU announced today that it will apply a service-based pricing model to new ReplayTV(R) products -- beginning with its forthcoming ReplayTV 4500 series, the next generation ReplayTV offering. Separating service subscription rates from the retail price of the ReplayTV unit, SONICblue's new pricing model will better meet the needs of national electronics retailers with lower overall costs and increased promotional opportunities.
"We intend to achieve 30% market share for digital video recorders this year based largely on our entry into mainstream retail channels," said Steve Shannon, vice president, ReplayTV product marketing, SONICblue. "The addition of new models and pricing are just a few of the changes we'll be making to ensure the long-term success of our ReplayTV retail strategy."
Further details of SONICblue's service-based pricing model will be made available when the new ReplayTV 4500 series is officially unveiled this summer.
This new pricing model does not apply to SONICblue's current ReplayTV 4000 or to prior offerings, which will continue to include a lifetime service subscription. The ReplayTV 4000 line will end of life with the launch of the new ReplayTV 4500 series.
About SONICblue Incorporated (www.SONICblue.com)
SONICblue is a leader in the converging Internet, digital media, entertainment and consumer electronics markets. Working with partners that include some of the biggest brands in consumer electronics, SONICblue creates and markets products that let consumers enjoy all the benefits of a digital home and connected lifestyle. SONICblue holds significant financial assets, global marketing capabilities and a focused technology portfolio that includes Rio(R) digital audio players; ReplayTV(R) personal television technology and software solutions; and Go-Video(R) integrated DVD+VCRs, Dual-Deck(TM) VCRs, and digital home theater systems.
Except for the historical information contained herein, the matters set forth in this press release, such as SONICblue's release of its ReplayTV 4500, implementation of the new pricing model, SONICblue's introduction of new ReplayTV models and pricing options, the ability to achieve lower overall costs and increased promotional opportunities, entry into mainstream retail channels, the intended 30% market share in the digital video recorder market, its success in better meeting the needs of the mainstream retail channel, are forward-looking statements within the meaning of the "safe harbor" provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These forward-looking statements are subject to risks and uncertainties that may cause actual results to differ materially, including, but not limited to the ability of the Company to enter into licensing agreements with manufacturers, the ability of the Company, its suppliers, retailers and distributors to meet scheduled release dates, the impact of competitive products and pricing and of alternative technological advances, the outcome of SONICblue's existing litigation concerning the ReplayTV products and other risks detailed from time to time in the SEC reports of SONICblue Incorporated, including its annual report on Form 10-K for the period ended December 31, 2001. These forward-looking statements speak only as of the date hereof. SONICblue disclaims any obligation to update these forward-looking statements.
Note to Editors: SONICblue and Dual-Deck are trademarks of SONICblue Incorporated. ReplayTV, Go-Video, and Rio are registered trademarks of SONICblue Incorporated. All other products and brand names as they appear in this release are trademarks or registered trademarks of their respective holders. All specifications may be changed without notice.
Contact Information:
SONICblue, Santa Clara
Tracy Perry, 408/588-8086 (Investor Relations)
tperry@SONICblue.com
or
The Bohle Company
Jason Wanacott, 310/785-0515 ext. 211 (Press)
jason@bohle.com
If they can cut the base price of the unit, subscriptions are good in my book.
Paying £200 for a lifetime's subscription may sound good, but it's limited to the unit, rather than the user. A lower starting cost/subscription based model strikes me as a better idea as you'll be able to upgrade to something better more often.
and this is a grand example of not wanting to buy anything that requires control by the mother-company. Why wont someone make a TiVo like device that doesnt call anything or anyone, let me program it like an advanced VCR (Record EVERY Friday night at 8:00pm from channel 5 with the ability to simply insert a pre-empt (This friday start at 9:30 instead of 8 because of another damned hockey game) and mark the "shows" you watched as killable but only when the space is needed.
But it wont be made/marketed... Because to make it very desirable it needs an ethernet port on it and to record as MPEG2 so I can copy one over to my laptop to watch on the train ride to toronto this weekend, or to burn onto a SVCD so I can Archive it.
The perfect device would require an IQ over 80 to operate it and that requirement will make it un-saleable in america.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Dont mean to be a troll but this scares me. If commercials are made useless by this technology how will the networks make money?
If anything, the lawsuits are a reason to get a ReplayTV instead of a TiVo. You'll be supporting a company that is pushing the best technology they can; if it forces the networks to rethink their revenue model, that's a problem for the networks to deal with.
Yeah well i would rather deal with the commercals then to have to deal with commercals built into the shows... Imagine a Farscape episode with a starship with a coke picture on it.
If the in show commercals dont show up then you will have the networks trying to do the same thing the cd companys are doing and try to make the tivo like devices completely useless with copy protection... I will take the technology with the commercials im not ready to deal with tech blocking/unblocking war to start with PVRs and Networks.
"All I can tell the "lesser of two evils" folks is that if they keep voting for evil, they'll keep getting evil."-Lp.org
As a consumer, I'm simply not interested in any device that can be 'sued' out of existence. My VCR is ten years old, and will continue to work until the day it croaks. Even if VCRs are declared illegal tomorrow, it will sit in my house and function as long as I want.
Personally, I would not buy a device (like the Replay) that becomes a paperweight if Replay ends up on the wrong end of a lawsuit.
And let me make something clear - I have no problem with them charging a monthly fee in exchange for service - it's then my choice to decide whether their service is worth the fee.
The concern is whether they'll be around to provide that service at all. By making the device worthless without the service, they have crippled the product.
The reason the device has to make a phone call is to get guide data, which makes the interface much easier to use.
Both Tivo and Replay allow you to "program like an advanced VCR" as you describe. As a Tivo user, I can tell you, that programming "like an
advanced VCR" is a pain-in-the-ass, and it's much easier to simply say "give me all the new episodes of 'The Osbournes'". The only reason for doing a time-based recording is when a particular show is on a heavy-repeat schedule and you only want certain showings (like "The Daily Show"). Otherwise, it's much easier to schedule recordings from the program guide. This means you still get your show even when the network moves it around.
Once these devices are hooked up to the Internet, they can get their guide data from there, and the phone call isn't needed.
Alternately, once the cable-companies start offering PVR capabilities in settop boxes (which they will), the guide data will be provided over the cable. Just as the satellite companies provide data over the satellite feed.
Sadly, once the cable companies start offering PVR, they will also eliminate consumer-friendly features like commercial skipping (or they'll embed the commercials in the interface itself!).
I'm turning off my +1 bonus since this is a bit of a rant. However, its a rant with some insider knowledge, so it may be worth reading. I used to work for a company that has been mentioned here on Slashdot twice. They make/made a multimedia convergence box that ran Linux and did DVD, MP3 ripping, MP3 jukebox, streaming audio and video, etc.
Our company effectively ran out of money last July/Aug./Sept. We still had partners with a major newspaper for $2M in advertising, and with a major audo components manufacturer (if you look at the box you would know whose products it looks like).
Anyway, we were looking for buyers, and SonicBlue made an offer. We accepted it, and the lawyers went into legal stuff. For months we all waited, until SonicBlue eventually pissed off our other partners so much that they walked from the deal. Needless to say, without the advertising money we were not as desirable and SonicBlue dumped us.
I guess my point is, SonicBlue is a bad company. They have a bunch of cash in the form of stock from the video card days, and they are spending it screwing up small companies (like us and the Rio Car).
I met Ken Potashner (sp?), CEO of SonicBlue. He was a whiny, slick marketer guy, may he roast in hell.
TiVo is a good company that customers can believe in. They make a good product (I have one), and they don't screw over their customers or business partners. I hope TiVo captures the whole market and SonicBlue goes bankrupt. Now that UltimateTV has been cancelled by Microsoft, it's a two horse race.
- Vincit qui patitur.
Just my humble oppinion, I just wish I could get a TiVo2 without loosing my subscription and go with broadband guide downloads- so I could cancel my land line.
It's a box with video in/out that sits between my cable/satellite box and my TV. It can record 20 or so hours of video.
It is available at a reaonsable cost (say $200) with no monthly fee. Since it does not download TV listings, there should not be a recurring or one-time "lifetime" fee.
When I want to record something I press a red button on my remote. It begins recording and prompts me for a unique name to identify the segment, or I can just accept the default. (A timestamp, perhaps).
It should always be running, so I can pause what I'm watching if needed.
Finally, there should be a 'program' button. The program button allow me to record a specific channel, for a specific duration, at a certain time.
There should be some rudimentary onscreen interface to navigate the things I've already recorded or delete them.
Additionally, the onscreen interface should let me choose what I want to record from (VHS, DVD, satellite, cable, video camera) based on the multiple video inputs on the back of the device.
It does not need to be intelligent, downloading listings and automatically recording shit on my behalf. Nor should it need to be hooked up to a phone line, since there is no reason the mfr. ever needs to hear from me again, since I OWN the box. I don't have a phone line anyway, I have cellular.
As far as I know, no one sells a box like this. I believe many people would buy it, though.
I don't know about Replay, but Tivo will still work if you're not subscribed to the service. At least according to their docs, it will. I haven't tried it, because I'd much rather use it with current program guide data.
I don't mind paying a subscription fee for the guide data. As someone who works making interactive program guides for "smart" cable settop boxes, I'm aware of how much effort goes into preparing said data. It's gotta be paid for somehow.
I've heard nothing but problems from Replay users. Yeah, it has some nice features that distinguish it from Tivo, but at least the Tivo works reliably!
Huh? My ReplayTV 3030 is very easy to use., and it's cheaper in the long run. I bought it for $500 two years ago. A comparable Tivo was $400 back then, so at $10/mo, that Tivo after 2 years was ~$600, while the Replay is still $400.
This Replay vs. Tivo arguement reminds me of the Mac vs. PC arguements on TCO. It's interesting that once again, people are going for the model that is cheaper up front and not the one that saves them money over time.
"The objective of securing the safety of Americans from crime and terror has been achieved." -- John Ashcroft
Now, if VA Linux/Software/Snackfoods didn't have its collective head up its ass, they'd be negotiating a deal to sell a Linux-based PVR software package to manufacturers in the Far East and Mexico.
I have two Replays (the black one, a generation older than the 4000.) Replays do let you do manual recordings, like an advanced VCR, so that you don't have to download the program guide from the Replay mothership. Unfortunately, you can't title the recording, so every recording shows up as "Manual Recording" in your programing guide. I think I record about 35 different shows on my 60 hour Replay box. It would definitely be a nightmare if they were all called "Manual Recording". Maybe they fixed this in the 4000, but I know for sure it does do manual recordings.
"Dont mean to be a troll but this scares me. If commercials are made useless by this technology how will the networks make money?"
Product placement. You already see it happening in movies and now prominently in Survivor.
Like a gas, advertisers expand to fill the medium.
I never did think the "lifetime subscription" model was viable, and the 4000 is so outrageously expensive that I never seriously considered upgrading to it. But I think they've already lost the mindset to Tivo: Tivo has almost become a generic term now, in common usage. And much as I hate the user interface on Tivo, I find that it leads me to using it much more as intended and in some ways a little more convenient (if only they'd get the performance up to something reasonable!). And Tivo has one thing that I've not seen on a Replay: an integrated satellite receiver so it stores the bits off the air and doesn't have to recompress. The quality thus achieved is far better than any current Replay model. So, I think Replay is history. I hope I'm wrong, because the competition they provide is invaluable.
So tell me... how exactly is paying the fee up front (for a cost that'll probably equal about 2 to 2.5 years worth of "subscription") a better idea? You do realize that exactly what you do when you buy a Replay machine, right?
If you throw down your extra $200-$250 as part of the cost of the machine and 6 months later they're sued out of business, then what? At least with a subscription you're NOT locked in.
-S
--- What parts of "shall make no law", "shall not be infringed", and "shall not be violated" don't you understand?
Interesting. I see the hiccups on TNT, but not on Fox; and the hiccups are associated with artifacts that are visible (but not too objectionable) on tape.
I did have to get a powered splitter to allow my 2020 to handle some channels. Conversations with the Replay tech support guys at the time convinced me that the RF design was a little weak.
Hacking my 2020 to add an 80GB disk gave it a much-increased lifetime, but I'm wondering whether it's time for an upgrade. There are features of Tivo I like, and features of the Replay 4000 series that I like; it'll be a difficult choice.
Allen
Actually, this has always been my view as a good way to do these subscription models. You give away the product for free as long as the customer signs up for a given period of time.
I had been looking at satellite radio (XM), but couldn't justify spending $300 or more on equipment, then having to spend $10/month to use it. Why couldn't they give you the equipment for free (or at a nice discount), as long as you signed up for 2 years, or something.
Same could go for TiVo. Give away the hardware free or at a low price, then rope the user into a contract. I think this is how DirecTV and the like do it. I always see ads for FREE DirecTV satellite with 2 year service (or something like that).
You should try checking eBay. People are always selling their older TiVos on there, usually with lifetime upgrades. In case you didn't know, the lifetime upgrades are tied to the unit, and not to the customer.
Well, I DID say it was a rant. I do have a problem with SB as a company, but I wouldn't call it a vendetta. I just won't support a company that I think is so careless with the lives of other people.
([Richard Bullwinkle]'s talking about hackers extracting the video from the Tivo)
If you follow the threads with Richard (a.k.a. Tivolutionary) on the AVS TiVo forum, you know that he is the TiVo hacker's biggest advocate in the company. The fact that they added TiVoNet (ethernet) support in the 3.0 software for hackers tells you how TiVo feels about hacking their boxes.
When I worked at the company I mentioned in my last post, we encountered this as well. We managed to get a license for the Microsoft WMA and WMV codec source, which we compiled and had running on Linux. Our contract with MS basically said we had to make every effort to prevent their codecs from getting out. That is the main reason our box was locked down so tight. If we had not gone to such lengths, we could have been liable if/when our box was hacked. If not for things like that, we could have had the box more open for hackers to play with.
The quote from Tivolutionary above is talking about the legal issues that got SB sued -- which TiVo does not want to have happen to them. Sending recorded shows over the internet may really be a copyright violation, and very possibly falls outside of fair use (IANAL). Even if it doesn't, it's not a clear line one way or the other, so TiVo is being careful. That is what I'd do if it were my company.
What it comes down to (at least for me) is this: Replay has better technology, and doesn't cowtow to "content providers" at the expense of their customers.
Well, I certainly would disagree about Reply/SB having better technology. I have used both boxes, and I like the TiVo better. Yes, Replay has two specific features (sharing and commercial skip), but if those features do prove to be illegal, you can hardly blame TiVo for not having them. TiVo has some unique features as well.
If you read the AVS forums, you will see that TiVo's customers understand TiVo's choices about these legal issues very clearly.
- Vincit qui patitur.
D-Tivo's have always gotten their guide data over the satellite feed.
And they get it continually, not just at the 2am-5am special thing. That special thing (which was added in 2.5) is a feed for software updates, Tivolution Magazine, showcases, etc.
To answer the original question, G-Guide does *not* contain anywhere nearly as much info as the Tivo downloads. You can see part of the info the Tivo gets on the Standalone by looking at a show description screen and pressing ENTER (with 2.5 or up). That's quite a chunk of data on a lot of shows.
In essence, all guide systems work based off the data from one of two providers: Tribune Media Services or TVGuide. Neither shows all the data they have on their websites. Tribune puts quite a lot of it on their website at www.zap2it.com. Some more of it (notably First Run Date) can be found thru Yahoo's online listings (which come from the TMS sources).
All that data is used by the unit for some function or another. Trying to use a different source is fine, but you will lose some functionality. Without First Run Date, for example, you lose the "first run only" recording feature.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Series 2 Tivo branded standalone boxes are exclusive to Best Buy and buying from Tivo directly, but other manufacturers are not. There will be other brand names (Philips, Sony, etc) coming out at some future point.
Oh, and Tivo does have a hidden skip 30 seconds feature. Hit Select Play Select Three Zero Select on the remote while watching any recording and voila, the Skip To End button is now a 30 second skip. Do it again to turn it back off.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.