The Ultimate Phone/PDA?

P800guy writes "Psion Place has a review of the SonyEricsson P800 available in Q3, this looks to be the best PDA/phone combined in the world. Running Symbian OS v7.0, 208x320 color touchscreen, triple-band GSM compatible, Multimedia Messaging (MMS), Bluetooth, GPRS always-on internet connection, built-in digital camera, support for HTML, xHTML, Java, iMode, WAP, Word, Excel, PPT. Check out the pictures, open, closed. In the US it'll work on Voicestream, ATT Wireless, and Cingular just don't expect it to be offically supported from day 1 of release." Getting closer- now if it just had a few gigs of memory for MP3s ;)

Comments

I need a new PDA.

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

My Newton is showing its age...

Symbian OS

[AirLace]

I was on the beta testing team of the next-generation Nokia Communicator which also uses Symbian OS v7.0. It was pretty snappy and responsive and the hardware is sleek, but I was less than impressed by the 'office software' capabilities: In their attempt to support proprietary Microsoft formats they've neglected to offer export filters for open file formats. For example, the word processor can only export Microsoft .DOC, not .RTF or even .TXT. Similarly, the spreadsheet can only export .XLS and not CSV or tab-separated data. This is a step backwards, IMO, but sadly I doubt that few mainstream users will complain. It's just a bit ironic that even the office software counterparts in Microsoft Windows CE offer file filters for 'open standard' formats -- why can't Symbian?

Re:Symbian OS

[mattdm]

Supporting *plain text* isn't exactly rocket science.

Re:Symbian OS

[HeUnique]

As an owner of Nokia 9100i Communicator - I know you can get the SDK and develop your application as much as you like..

I hardly belive it isn't the case with the 92xx series - so you can get the SDK and write your own import/export filter..

Saw it in Action

[Teut]

On GDC (Game Developers Conference) I saw this thing demonstrated and had time to play with it.

Its small, smaller than the image suggests. Its fast, screen is awesome. The biggest worry "running time on one battery charge" couldn't be answered, the guys said the hardware wasn't final they had.
Also the flip cover with the keys simply presses the touchscreen below it. Advantage: saves hardware, disadvantage: flimsy plastic look on the back and the display has to be fully powered all the time.

They showed Lord of the Rings as MPG on it and demonstrated some PC-Phone connection stuff which looked pretty polished.

This is a phone for me, can't wait :)

Third Party Phones

[Alien54]

Of course, this still means you hav to by an ATT phone if you want to use a GSM compatible setup.

Many companies will not permit you to use a third party phone on their service.

Re:Third Party Phones

[bihoy]

Yeah, I was reading about this in the paper a few days ago. Implementation of both cell phone and phone number portability have be dragged out for years by mobile phone companies. Apparently the companies want to minimize churn by holding their customers hostage. They seem to have focused more on this technique as opposed to improving service.

Re:Third Party Phones

[dgp]

GSM is all about interoperability. Perhaps you are describing the fact that a cell phone company can 'lock' a phone to their service, so you cannot get a cheap phone on a service plan and then sell it to someone else on another network. Otherwise any GSM phone should work on any GSM network. Voicestream has long ignored the Ericsson t39 and t68 - yet when I bought a 'unlocked' t39 off of ebay, I inserted my SIM card from my old phone and the t39 worked immeadiately.

Ericsson + Windows

[tka]

What ever happened to the 'ericsson adding windows to their phones' project? I guess they realized that symbian is pretty good (altough nothing can beat linux...).

I think that many mobile phones can be thought as somekind of pre-PDA thing. You can check email with them, use calendar etc. Do we really need very colourfull screen on PDA's & mobile phones because it uses lot of battery? For some people it's a good thing but, I wouldn't actually really want it now.

Just waiting for a new release of nokia communicator.. (it'll rock)

Re:Ericsson + Windows

[Psiren]

altough nothing can beat linux...

Care to expand on that little nugget? I fail to see why Linux has any advantage over Symbian in this context. In fact, I fail to see how Linux even comes close.

Re:Ericsson + Windows

[joib]

You mean this one?

Re:Ericsson + Windows

[HeUnique]

I think he meant to compare a Linux embedded + GUI compared to the new Windows OS for the cellular phones (forgot it's name)..

As much as I know - you'll need to do MUCH more to tweak Linux kernel to work on a cell phone, add a new GUI (QTopia won't fit - too big, but thats just my guess), and I hardly see why people want to use Linux there - it's not like you're sticking a free copy of debian into it - you'll need lots of closed source apps & support for it (think browser, calendar, and don't forget - all the modem stuff and the hardware talking)...

In short - as it stands now - I didn't see any company sells a Linux solution for cell phone, and there's already some competition - Windows solution, Symbian Solution, GEOS solution (the one that comes with Communicator 9100), and others...

Another Review

[margaret]

The register has another review that's a little more in-depth...

Needs a better keyboard

[mgkimsal2]

The new zaurus keyboard on their latest is, imo, much more useful. I realize this is a 'phone' with PDA capabilities second, but it seems that these things are converging more quickly and if someone would keep all capabilities equal (PDA v phone v whatever else) the ultimate handheld device would be the outcome.

Re:Needs a better keyboard

[1010011010]

The Kyocera Smartphone is a pretty good phone/PDA combo. It's an 8MB Palm (v3.5.3) with a tri-mode phone. $99. I bought one last week and love it. I wish the internet service was always-on (rather than dialing up a PPP server), but that's not a biggie. I can use the thing as a wireless fax or modem out of my regular allotment of airtime.

Re:Needs a better keyboard

[mgkimsal2]

That's actually what I have, except I paid over $200 at the time I got it. I actually saw it for $108 at circuit city, with a $100 rebate (total = $8 !!!).

It's still intended as a phone with PDA stuff in it, and the zaurus is a PDA, with potentially a phone add-on (not sure, but I know it doesn't come with one).

Nokia 9210

[jsse]

If you want a phone with PDA function, Sony P800 is definitely your cup of tea. However, if you want a PDA with phone function, I think Nokia 9210i will suit you.

picture of camera

[kipsate]

A picture of the camera on the back.

Re:im confused

[Tha_Zanthrax]

it gets taken of entirely.

the keypad is just a piece of plastic in which the button are placed. when a button is pressed it just pushes the touchscreen.

http://www.sonyericsson.com/3Dphones/p800/p800.h tm l
to see a demo

oy

[Apreche]

I dont' understand the people who design this stuff. We have the technology, we just don't use it properly. I want a cell-phone sized device that is also a PDA, mp3 player, and digital camera. take a cell phone, replace the numbered buttons with a GameBoyAdvance style LCD screen. Use an IBM microdrive. Companies keep making all of these things seperately very well, but they can't seem to combine them correctly. I'm not going to buy one until they have what I want.

Re:oy

[FFFish]

Basically, a Psion NetBook, with voice call capabilities. Gahd, how I'd spooge over something like that.

Re:Symbian OS: glorious past, uncertain future

[Troed]

Note: I started as an Epoc programmer for Ericsson Mobile in -98, worked for Symbian for two years between -99 and -01, and I'm currently an Epoc (Symbian OS) Software development consultant for BlueLabs - my views are maybe a bit biased ;)

The advantage of Symbian OS over PalmOS is that it's a real OS ;) The advantage over PocketPC is that the programming model (Symbian uses their own version of C++ you could say) aids a lot in preventing memory leaks.

There's of course a lot more to say than this, but Symbian OS is a really good OS you definitely want instead of PocketPC or PalmOS :) Promise. It's a pain to program for - it takes a while to get into.

Why merge the two?

[ajiva]

Why are people so intent on merging PDA/Phones? They are not very size compatible. Like for example, I take my HandSpring Visor with me to school, but I just stuff it in my backpack and use it in class, but my phone I take *everywhere*. So I have to have a small phone (Nokia 8290). They serve two distinct purposes, and I refuse to merge them. I don't want a smaller PDA, its fine, and I don't want a larger phone, its fine.

Re:Why merge the two?

[pauljlucas]

Why are people so intent on merging PDA/Phones?

Because, IMHO, it's just plain dumb:

1. to have phone numbers duplicated and eventually get out of sync between those in a PDA and those in a phone;
2. to carry two things around rather than one.

They are not very size compatible.

If I'm going to carry a PDA around anyway, which is larger than most cell phones, adding cell-phone functionality to it doesn't make it any/much larger than the PDA.

I also don't understand my so many people want microscopic-sized phones. Sure, they're kind of cute; but the buttons and screens are so damned small. Also, one's home/land-line phone is "normal phone sized" so why insist on much smaller cell phones?

I take my HandSpring Visor with me to school, but I just stuff it in my backpack and use it in class, but my phone I take *everywhere*.

I take my Kyocera QCP-6035 with me everywhere and use it more as a PDA than a phone. I use it in the supermarket (HandyShopper), the gym (thinkDB2), and other places.

But those times when either I need to make a call or the select few people who have my cell number need to get a hold of me, it's great. In the Address Book app, I also keep store hours so I can know if they're open before I bother to call.

The phone even does a number look-up in the Address Book app for the caller's name when no caller-ID information is transmitted. Nice touch.

They serve two distinct purposes ...

Not when it comes to the Address Book app where there is lots of overlap. The Speed Dial app also links to the numbers in the Address Book. Again, nice touch.

... and I refuse to merge them.

Fine: that's your choice. Nobody is putting a gun to your head.

Re:Why merge the two?

[Locutus]

phone/PDA's are bigger than just the PDA.

All of your other reasons can be remedied by:

BLUETOOTH

( Now you know why Microsoft is attempting to kill Bluetooth.)

LoB

Re:Why merge the two?

[Locutus]

BTW Microsoft have put their full weight behind Bluetooth recently. They are trying to sell phones too, so there would be no reason to kill it off for strategy reasons.

Really. By saying they would have a Bluetooth kit for MS Windows XP by the end of the year? That is not full support. Mark my word, they'll have Win-Fi (Windows-only WiFi) out before they release the Bluetooth drivers. I'd even go on a limb and say that the Bluetooth support will be flaky too and the device manufacturers will be pointed to by Microsoft.

I agree there is a lot of potential here with Bluetooth to have two separate devices, but to be honest, next year's phones will be the power of laptops two years ago, so why not steal as much PDA functionality as possible and make it as usuable as possible in the normal phone form factor. Hey if you love to do spreadsheets but find the screen too small, get a PDA too.

Not everyone wants a PDA but most will want a phone. Pricing pressures will limit the sales numbers of the combo-phone/pda. IMO, it would be smarter if the phone manufacturers worked with the PDA vendor and made sure they worked together via Bluetooth than attempt to take the PDA market for their own. Again, not everyone wants a PDA.

LoB

Re:Why merge the two?

[Macka]

==[ Why are people so intent on merging PDA/Phones? ]==

Because it's a pain in the butt having to carry around 2 devices, especially when generally a PDA is much bigger. I recently brought a T68m, solely on the strength of its calendaring features. I keep its calendar and phone number list in sync with my PC organizer and consequently my Palm is now collecting dust. I doubt I'll ever use it again.

Having my diary entries for the next year and all my phone numbers to hand all the time, has turned out to be a god send. I doubt I'll ever use seperate devices again.

Re:Why merge the two?

[Locutus]

Then let them start by accepting SyncML and dial when they receive one with a tag or something like that. The software crowd will make it work with the PDA's. They should also have a SyncML dump and load feature.

That would be a good start. In a real competitive environment, those with the first or best products set the standard if open standards aren't used. In other words, the field is open and with the PalmOS at 70+% marketshare, that would be a good platform to support but it would depend on the bluetooth support the PDA has or will have.

LoB

Is this a phone I can program?

[bihoy]

I wonder what functions the API will provide access to? One of my peeves with 3G (or near 3G) devices is the inability to programatically control the telephony functions of the device. For example it would be very desirable to be able to filter incoming calls. Particularly all the phone spam that these devices are going to be magnets for. If this device would allow for this then that would be *very* cool. At any rate, I want one!

Re:Is this a phone I can program?

[Cato]

This comes down to the service creation APIs that live on servers in the 3G network - while 3G has a huge range of such APIs, and a lot of capabilities in this area, it's rather doubtful that these will be fully exposed to the customer. UMTS Release 5 (a later release of the main 3G standards) will be wholly based on SIP, but you'll still need to go through a SIP proxy).

However, at least with EPOC APIs for C++ and Java you'll be able to fully program whatever features are exposed from the network.

I would rather have a personal network

[cpuffer_hammer]

I would rather have a network (blue tooth) or something like that that could keep my personal devices (as will as information on my laptop and desktop) synced. I want the phone lists the same and be able to pull a number form an email on my pda and dial it on the phone. It would also be nice if they backed each other up. So if my cell-phone gets smashed I can buy a replacement and the data will fill in from my other devices. (like a RAD array).

is this so different?

take it to Europe and Asia?

[supernova87a]

Sorry for my complete unfamiliarity with overseas phone systems -- Is this a phone that you could take abroad and use then?

How does that work? I've heard that pretty much everyone else in the world uses GSM. Is that enough to use your phone on their networks? How do they bill you?

Thanks in advance for enlightening me!

Re:take it to Europe and Asia?

[Colm@TCD]

The GSM system allows you to take your phone to other networks according to agreements between the network operators; the precise details vary from operator to operator, but in general your "home" network forwards calls to the network to which you're roaming - the person who's calling you pays the normal charge and you pay the roaming charge to receive the call. When you make calls on a roaming network, you generally pay the same as that network's own home phones, plus some small percentage. I guess there's some sort of clearing system between the networks, because roaming charges usually show up on my bill from 1-3 months after the calls actually took place.

Re:take it to Europe and Asia?

[HeUnique]

Is there a way to "un-lock" those GSM phones? I have Communicator 9110i and 8210 - any chance for those phones to be un-locked? how?

Re:take it to Europe and Asia?

[jedrek]

In Europe there's quite a large cottage industry that deals in breaking phones. All the major players on in on it: warez groups, organized crime. You can actually get it removed in a couple dozen places here in Warsaw.

You can almost always unlock your phone in a couple minutes for about $10. There are sometimes problems with the newest phones, newest software. But, usually, it's not a problem.

Check out Google or ask electronics/telephone freaks in your local area. It will probably void your warranty though, so beware.

This reminds me... Poland's largest cellphone operator, Era, offered the Nokia 8210 for a symbolic 1zl ($0.25) to it's business customers who'd sign a 2 year contract. The phone was selling for 500-600zl with a 2 year contract so it was quite a deal. The phones didn't weren't simlocked, everyone I talked to assumed it was Era's way of showing appreciation to their business customers.

Later it turned out that phones were supposed to have been simlocked and somebody just screwed up. Six people - a chunk of a whole division at Era - lost their jobs.

Re:Real nice demonstration.

[zerOnIne]

i used IE too, so i suppose that means i have cosined ...

900lb gorrilla vs. Godzilla

[pubjames]

Fighting in the domestic entertainment appliance arena today are:

Microsoft:
XBox - success uncertain

Other attempts at (non-hardware) domestic entertainment products
MSN - dissapointing - not very profitable - failed to unseat AOL
Microsoft Bob - 'domestic OS' - laughable failure
Pocket PC operating system for phones and PDAs - moderate success, not a significant revenue generator yet
Various TV/cable ventures - moderate success or failure
Microsoft games - successful and profitable

Sony
TVs, music systems, VCRs, DVD players etc - very successful globally over many years
Sony Walkman, personal stereos, mini-disc players - very successful globablly over many years
PlayStation 1 and 2 - very successful worldwide
Mobile phones - increasingly successful collaboration with major service providers

Other domestic ventures (not hardware):
Sony entertainment products (movies, record lables), generally successful or very successful over many years.

Who would you bet on winning in the domestic appliance ring - the 900lb gorrilla or Godzilla?

Re:900lb gorrilla vs. Godzilla

[Cow4263]

*cough* betamax *cough*

Except for every Japanese-market phone

[huntdwumpus]

"...this looks to be the best PDA/phone combined in the world." This thing would get you laughed off the subway car in Tokyo (by high-school girls with more advanced tech).

I don't think I want Symbian.

[SamIIs]

I don't think I want my PDA to run Symbian. Am I wrong?

I've always found that the most useful part of my PDA was software support. With PalmOS, I get Vindigo, which is one of the most impressive parts of my Pilot. I get AvantGo for stationary web stuff (I guess that's void with net-access pda) and I get a few closed-source medical databases of meds and prescription data. (I'm a MD.) I think all 3 of these are closed to other operating systems.

It seems like I'll lose all this when I switch to a different OS? Am I wrong? Has anybody had a great experience with an OS besides Palm?

Sam

Re:I don't think I want Symbian.

[SamIIs]

Do you know about whether there's Vindigo? I LOVE Vindigo. It has all the movie times and resteraunt locations and maps and directions I could ever want in my city, and they have data packages for most big cities.

I'd be sad without it.

As comps and phones collide, who's # Pad wins?

[SamIIs]

Look at the number pad on your keyboard, and then look at the number pad on your phone. They're opposite. The keyboard starts at the bottom and works it's way up, while the phone starts at the top and works down.

Each are standard in their own field; You'll never find a keyboard with a phone-style pad and you'll never find a phone with a keyboard-style pad, but they're opposite from eachother. When I finally get a computer/phone combination, what kind of pad will it have? And who was the monkey that allowed these standards to differ so drastically?

Sam

Re:As comps and phones collide, who's # Pad wins?

[pauljlucas]

And who was the monkey that allowed these standards to differ so drastically?

AFAIK, the reason why numeric pads, taken from calculators, and, before them, adding machines, are the way they are is arbitrary.

The reason phone pads are the way they are was a conscious decision by Bell Labs when moving away from rotary-dial phones to Touch-Tone. If you recall a rotary dial, the lower digits were on the top of the dial. To make the transition to Touch-Tone, they put the lower digits on the top of the pad.

Before you criticize Bell Labs for not following the defacto standard, remember that if Apple and others didn't break with the 8.3 filename convention, we would have been stuck with that for many more years.

Re:As comps and phones collide, who's # Pad wins?

[PatSmarty]

Some keyboards allow to take out invidual keys and rearrange them. If you want some fun, rearrange your work buddy's num pad in phone-style order: He/She will have no idea what's going on since the key layout "looks right", trying to reinstal drivers etc... :-)

Re:As comps and phones collide, who's # Pad wins?

[bluGill]

According to Donald Norman's Design of Everyday Things (great book, you should read it!), when AT&T designed the first touch tone phone they looked at keyboards for comptuers, and asked WHY, and were horrified to discover that there was no reason. AT&T then spent a lot of money to figgure out the best arrangement for the number keys and put that on the phone.

Java

[barnaclebarnes]

Its got Java so yes you can program apps for this phone. The java will be the J2me edition.

/b

Im not ready yet

[cybercuzco]

Ill wait until it has tricorder-like capabilities. Sure its great to have a ppt presentation on your cell phone, but what if you need to scan for alien life forms, detect neutrino emissions, or tell if somone has a tribble lodged in their -*Radio Edit*-? Plus tricorders have more blinking lights on them, so you cant go wrong with that.

MP3 capability - letter from SONY-Ericsson

[jimbo]

Just bought one of these ingenious gadgets for my T39:
http://www.wanna-save.dk/specialtilbud/defau lt.asp ?VareID=355
Price: About $50.
I plan on buying a P800 ASAP (MP3 or not - it ROCKS) and sent SONY-Ericsson a letter asking about MP3 support, they answered:

Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for contacting Sony Ericsson,

With regard to your enquiry, the P800 does not have a built in MP3 player.

Details of compatibility with accessories are not currently available.

For further available information regarding this product you should log onto
our website www.sonyericsson.com

Should you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to
contact us.

Kind regards

Mike Rowlands
SonyEricsson Customer Support

Telephone: 08705 237 237
Fax: 0845 300 2439
Email: questions.gb@sonyericssonmobile.com

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 23 April 2002 18:49
To: questions.gb@support.sonyericsson.com
Subject: Contact form CWS

Product: MP3 Handsfree HPM-10

Opinion: Buying a HPM-10 I wonder: Will it work with the P800 or will the
P800 have a more practical builtin MP3 capabilities and a flashmemory
expansion slot of sorts? (yes, I can actually imagine listening to music
during a boring meeting).

Thanks
Best regards.

Re:Voicestream supports "alien" phones...

[Pahroza]

They've still got the same policy, which is one of the reasons I switched to them. From their customer help page:

Question
Can I activate VoiceStream service on a phone I bought from another carrier?

Answer
VoiceStream phones use a technology called GSM (For more information on GSM click here. GSM relies upon a smart card to function. If the phone you purchased from another carrier requires a smart card, you can activate it with VoiceStream. If your phone does not require a smart card, it will not be compatible with the VoiceStream system.

If you would like to activate your phone with VoiceStream, or are unsure if your phone uses a smart card, please visit any VoiceStream Sales Office for assistance or call Customer Care at 1-800-937-8997.

Note: You may be required to contact your previous carrier to unblock your phone for VoiceStream activation.

Looks like a mockup to me

[Locutus]

Look at the picture with the numpad showing. You can see the hinges and how there are slots in the base phone compartment for the hinges. Now look at the picture with the numpad opened up. There are no hinge slots at all in the phone. Where did the numpad go?

I also see the shadow of the pen looking like a artists mockup. Shouldn't there be some reflection?

If they can build this it looks good for those who insist on having a phone AND PDA in one device. I personally like the option of wireless connectivity between phone, pda, headset, etc. Keep the phones disposable and pack as much as possible into the PDA. IMHO.

LoB

Both?

[DABANSHEE]

I've seen computer keyboards that are designed for use in call centres where workers can dial out via the modem in the cvomputer & the computer's in effect also gets used as a phone.

When used with the dialer software the number pad changes to the phone layout, while otherwise it uses the standard PC keyboard layout.

To add to the confusion the keys have both numbers on it.

So for example the '7' key has a little grey '1' printed on it next to where the '7' is printed, & 'home' is printed underneath. While the '8' key has a little grey '2' printed next to where the '8' is printed, & also has the up arrow printed on it to. Etc, etc.

Re:Few gigs???

[HeUnique]

If I'm not mistaken - with GPRS you're "always on" - meaning you're connected always, and you pay by amount of data transmition. So if you're willing to play MP3's by data transmition - be my guest, just take a 2nd mortgage to pay the bills ;)

Smartphone P800/P802 Whitepaper (PDF)

[sclarke]

The white paper(PDF) on the on the SonyEricsson P800 has plenty of details. I'd recommend taking a look if your interested in this great new platform. I'd really like for Symbian gain popularity in the US.

Re:Ahh, the wonders of technology!

[Wesley Felter]

Actually, I don't think the keypad has any electrical connection to the phone at all; it just taps on the screen.

Wonder if mic and speaker is accessible by apps

[horza]

It would be interesting if you could install a Voice over IP app on there. One thing I can't find anywhere is the resolution of the cam. The Nokia one is 640x480.

Phillip.