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MS Putting the Squeeze on Alternative Audio

Posted by timothy on from the presumption-gumption dept.

renard writes: "Some interesting developments during the last two days of the Microsoft antitrust trial, as reported by AP: MS Executive Linda Averett has admitted that Internet Explorer trumps user preferences for audio playback, and explains away a failure of IE6 searches to find RealAudio sites as a "mistake by the search team." My personal favorite: an MS-internal email exchange where one employee suggests that everyone "Remember the 'embrace and extend' campaigns we've used in the past," and an MS executive admonishes that "We need to keep all of this off the airwaves." See also related stories at Yahoo, CNN, and the NYT."

44 of 441 comments (clear)

  1. Just gets worse for MS by R2.0 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Judge Jackson may have been so personally pissed at MS he did something legally questionable, but now MS is showing their stripes to an "impartial" judge. I don't think Judge CKK is going to be the pushover they hoped.

    --
    "As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
    1. Re:Just gets worse for MS by dattaway · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No, MS will find some way to anger the judge and cause him to do something that will get the case dismissed. Its worked every time.

    2. Re:Just gets worse for MS by Eryq · · Score: 5, Funny

      MS line of reasoning:

      "The judge found us guilty... that *proves* they were biased against us!"

      --
      I'm a bloodsucking fiend! Look at my outfit!
    3. Re:Just gets worse for MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Im not so sure. I think CKK will unleash a nice, hefty blow towards microsoft. I think shes trying to avoid the impression of biasedness that Judge Jackson clearly showed, at all cost by giving Microsoft every opportunity to present themselves in the right light. This will even raise the impression that shes pro-Microsoft or doesnt really listen to the states.
      And forget how Gates acted. The mere fact that he didnt explode like everybody exptected doesnt turn him into a favour for MS. Basically what he said was : "It is bad for Microsoft if the settlement goes through.". Well, this is what this whole thing is about. You could go even further and translate what he said into :" Ok, even if we were a Monopoly, were such an important one and already got too far so that ripping us apart now would turn America and the world into the lower levels of hell." Miss CKK could still, and i believe she will, turn into Mr. Gates personal purgatory. Wait and see !

    4. Re:Just gets worse for MS by Chris+Johnson · · Score: 3, Interesting
      "Her".

      The judge is a woman- and she seems to be well aware of this strategy of theirs.

      I would be very surprised if she isn't sitting back, watching carefully, and getting mad at the States every time they stumble or screw up. If they make an error, she pounces on it and refuses to let them put any weight on the error.

      I think she sees quite plainly that Microsoft is an illegal monopolist running amok- and she's damned if she's going to screw up like Jackson did, by betraying any sort of bias that could be used to vacate her judgement. She's gonna put forth a very _controlled_ judgement that happens to make MS very, very unhappy.

  2. Ok, maybe I am naive.. by xtermz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...but does anybody else get the impression that this whole 'anti-trust' trial is just a big giant dog and pony show to keep everybody happy and make the government look like they arent all up on big biz's jock ?

    Sorry, but if I tried to pass off some of the crap that MS has in these trials, i'ld be in jail on contempt charges.

    Maybe i'm naive, but i think the gov doesnt really give a fxck about MS or their 'anti-competitive' practices, they just brought out the smoke and mirrors...

    --


    I lost my concept of community when my community lost all concept of me.
    1. Re:Ok, maybe I am naive.. by greenfly · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, the govt. used to care, and used to want to bring anti-trust charges against Microsoft, but then, Microsoft used to not donate money to any political party.

      It's interesting to see how both policies changed around the same time.

    2. Re:Ok, maybe I am naive.. by 4of12 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Your premise might have a great deal of substance.

      But remember that MS has not just been using its monopoly to tax a broad base of small individuals.

      It has been extending its means of taxation by leveraging its monopoly to trounce other large businesses.

      While those businesses have no where near the financial resources of Microsoft, they are businesses nonetheless(Netscape, Sun, Oracle, AOL/TW), and therefore entitled to at least some of the same bent political process favoring businesses.

      --
      "Provided by the management for your protection."
    3. Re:Ok, maybe I am naive.. by Fig,+formerly+A.C. · · Score: 3, Funny

      Hasn't Microsoft ALWAYS had a monopoly in the Windows computer market? :-)

      --
      Murphy was an optimist.
    4. Re:Ok, maybe I am naive.. by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The tone of the trial seemed to change around the time that we elected a Texas oilman as our president.

      -B

    5. Re:Ok, maybe I am naive.. by Zeinfeld · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Well, the govt. used to care, and used to want to bring anti-trust charges against Microsoft, but then, Microsoft used to not donate money to any political party.

      I don't work for Microsoft, but I had a member of Newt Gingrich's staff tell me that the 'problem with Microsoft is that they make all this money but they do not play a social role'.

      For anyone who knows beltway speak that is code for 'give campaign donnations' in the same way that supporting the 'right of southern states to cellebrate their heritage' is code for 'we are racists and would like to see the return of the KKK and segregation but we will settle for flying the stars and bars from the capitol' etc. etc.

      At the time Gates had recently donated the first $100 mil. to his foundation and announced his intention to donate substantially more so the 'social role' considered was not charitable in nature.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
    6. Re:Ok, maybe I am naive.. by JordoCrouse · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I know this is a troll, but I am in a arguing sort of mood.

      The States came after Microsoft because they had dollar signs in their eyes.
      Nothing more, nothing less. They just wanted a piece of the pie.

      What, so you think that the states will see any settlement money? Did you think that Bill G was going to show up with a huge novelty check with the memo "Sorry for fucking you over"??

      I don't know about the other states, but Utah joined as a result of the ongoing litigation with Caldera over DR-DOS. Many of the experts in the case are at the University Of Utah, and after reviewing the facts in the case, they all advised the then attorney general to join the case.

      If nothing else, it was an effort to punish Microsoft, and maybe drum up a little more support for the hometown heros Caldera and Novell.

      Not to mention, being ruled a monopoly is a surefire way to ensure every con artist and halfwit who can't make it in the market on their own will slither out of the woodwork and make bogus claims against you.

      Right - you know I really hate it when I have to go out and pick a telephone provider, or gas station, or what kind of car to drive. Wouldn't it just have been easier if we all drove Ford cars filled with Standard Oil gas while talking on our AT&T phones?

      Maybe because if we had let those monopolies stand, AT&T would be charging you $2.00 a minute instead of 15 cents, Ford cars would breaking down ever 10,000 miles forcing you to buy a new one, and gasoline would be at 10 bucks a gallon.

      Yeah, these anti-trust laws really suck.

      --
      Do you have Linux and a DotPal? Click here now!
    7. Re:Ok, maybe I am naive.. by curunir · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No...that's not what changed.

      There were two things that changed the government's position towards microsoft...the views of the content industry and the views of Computer makers (Dell, Gateway etc).

      The content industry realizes that it is unlikely that they'll be able to force hardware to include DRM (not that Fritzie will stop trying). However, they don't need that as long as MS controls 95% of the desktop OS market. If they can get DRM onto 95% of desktops, they'll be happy. If MS's monopoly position weakens, then consumers might start to look for an OS without a DRM solution.

      The PC makers used to want MS punished. They were sick of MS's overly-restrictive OEM license agreements. But then the bottom dropped out of the PC market. People didn't feel the need to upgrade their computers since they could run everything they needed to on their current setups. There was no killer app driving people to upgrade their computers. This is where XP's bloat starts to work in its favor. XP, to PC makers, is the killer app that will drive people to upgrade.

      So, when Intel, AMD, Dell, Gateway, Compaq, HP, the RIAA and MPAA call their favorite senators and tell them that they'd like Microsoft to get a slap on the wrist, the government complies.

      --
      "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos!"
  3. Not like Realplayer is saint-like by MikeOttawa · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This really isn't much worse than the hoops that RealPlayer makes you go through to remove it as your default media player. After about 4 "Are you really, really, really sure you want to Disalbe StartCenter" messages it lets you. Besides - they make you upgrade about once a month so that all your preferences get reset to RealPlayer again anyway... I don't know who would actually PAY for their crappy product.

    1. Re:Not like Realplayer is saint-like by reaper20 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yep, Realplayer is jumping on the "Please feel sorry for us, we're getting h0sed by MS too!" bandwagon.

      MS is probably at fault for some of this - but if Real would just realize that their software sucks, and that might be a big reason for people not using it in the first place.

      Open message to real: I'm a Linux fanatic. At work, when my Windows users ask "which do I choose at radiowhatever.com, real or ms?" I tell them to use the MS format.

      That's how much Real's software sucks. At least we have ogg.

    2. Re:Not like Realplayer is saint-like by Flower · · Score: 4, Interesting
      True. But there is a big difference between being nagged about "are you sure you don't want to use our product" and "I don't care if you want to use PlayerX you're going to be using our Player."

      In one instance, I can always find a different product that doesn't irritate me and at least tries to dwim. In the other, I'm not given any choice at all. Tack on the fact that choice is being eliminated by a convicted monopolist and actually it is much worse.

      --
      I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
    3. Re:Not like Realplayer is saint-like by nvrrobx · · Score: 3, Informative

      Also notice when you're installing RealPlayer and choosing your Spam Preferences, by default, all the checkboxes you see are unchecked. Scroll down to the bottom of that box, the rest are all checked.

  4. Sneaky by delta407 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    How can you "accidentally" not show Real Audio search results? Huh, whoops, guess all y'all have to use Windows Media Audio now...

    1. Re:Sneaky by miguelitof · · Score: 3

      How can you "accidentally" not show Real Audio search results?

      Well, a programmer accidentally writes a filter along the lines of:
      if strSrchResult == ["rm"|"ra"] then strSrchResult = null

      Then a programmer accidentally copies this filter into the source code.

      Then a programmer accidentally enables this part of the source code.

      Then a programmer accidentally compiles this (along with the rest of the program).

      It's all accidentally easy, dontcha know!

      --
      --- Biffster.org
      "Bite my shiny metal ass."
  5. Is this legal?? by dolphinuser · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "... She said the problem was fixed two weeks ago -- over a month after the states' top lawyer, Brendan Sullivan, showed the search problem during opening arguments as evidence of Microsoft's wrongdoing,

    So the "problem" was presented as evidence of wrong doing, so they went ahead and fixed it. Is this similar to tampering with evidence?

    John

    --
    The drops of water don't know themselves to be a river; and yet the river flows.
    1. Re:Is this legal?? by beleg777 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      More to the point, the problem was presented, and they seem to think that fixing it makes everything better.

      "You can't punish me for that, I stopped doing it when I got caught!" Bah.

      --

      Science may someday discover what faith has always known.
  6. Embrace and Extend? by Nept · · Score: 3, Funny

    Share and Enjoy!

    --
    "Teachers leave us kids alone ..." - Roger Waters, Pink Floyd
  7. As Nelson would Say....... by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 3, Funny

    HA HA.

    anyway.......

    my god, is it just me or do MS execs seem to just not get prosecuted for purgery?

    --



    I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
    1. Re:As Nelson would Say....... by calags · · Score: 3, Funny

      ...Purgery...??

      As far as I'm concerned MS execs can take as many laxatives as they want.

      --
      Never attribute to stupidity what can be construed as a monopoly preservation tactic.
    2. Re:As Nelson would Say....... by spectecjr · · Score: 3, Informative

      my god, is it just me or do MS execs seem to just not get prosecuted for purgery?

      If MS execs were to be prosecuted for perjury, then the Real execs would have to be as well.

      Remember; Real Networks are the people who stood up in court at the start of the trial and claimed (under oath) that Microsoft had crippled their RealPlayer G2 installer.

      The real story?

      RealPlayer G2's Installer was badly written, and contained bugs.

      Microsoft demonstrated where the bugs in the installer were, and hey presto - it worked fine. Any good installer engineer would have been able to fix that - I guess the Real Networks ones are too busy embedding spyware to get the basics right.

      So... when are the Real Networks guys going to be prosecuted for perjury?

      Simon

      --
      Coming soon - pyrogyra
  8. I can see how it could happen... by Eric+Damron · · Score: 5, Funny

    "It was clearly a mistake by the search team..."

    This is true. The code is very complex and mistakes can easily be made...

    if player != realplayer
    addList(player);

    It could happen...

    --
    The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
    1. Re:I can see how it could happen... by SeaCrazy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I know, my cat walked over the keyboard and typed in the EXACT same thing!

      It happens all the time.

      --
      .sig? Get your own damn .sig!
  9. Why this fixation on Modular Windows? by Confessed+Geek · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've been reading this for months... and you know it still seems like of all the things you could do to punish microsoft or increase competitiveness, this has to be one of the most trivial.

    Ignore the propriatary file formats, ignore the "microsoft tax" contracts, ignore the insane EULA's, Ignore the nasty anti-OpenSource traps in their code releases, (your prof in CSI 101 saw our code so your open source project 5 years later violates our IP...) Ignore all the other dirty tricks they are playing and make them take out the ability to download files, or listen to music out of the box??? what the HECK! The whole organization must be stifling giggles and telling the lawyers to fight it out just so the court doesn't realize how easy athey are getting off.

    1. Re:Why this fixation on Modular Windows? by hattig · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Sadly, I must agree completely with the parent poster.

      Real Remedies for the Real Problem

      1) Microsoft must license products on a RAND scheme (reasonable and non-discriminatory)
      2) Microsoft must release full API documentation detailing all APIs that non-OS tasks can call.
      3) Microsoft must release full file format documentation
      4) Microsoft must NOT release any source code. That won't solve a thing - it will in fact make Microsoft a larger monopoly in the future as people cannot code competing operating systems due to having seen that code!
      5) No internal cross-subsidy, similar in function to the limitations the British monopoly BT has

      There is more that I cannot recall right now. A possible split in the company: OS vs. Apps & Services to put their application teams on a more level footing and to expose the true cost of the "free" software they give away.

    2. Re:Why this fixation on Modular Windows? by blakestah · · Score: 5, Informative

      ...make them take out the ability to download files, or listen to music out of the box???

      No, that is not what the proposal is about. The proposal identifies 9 key areas - browser, email client, and media player are three of them. For each key area, the Microsoft user tool must be removable and replaceable by an OEM without penalty. So, essentially, the OEM buys the stripped Windows and some subset of the 9 components from Microsoft, and gets the other components from other vendors. The OEM is free to configure Windows however it sees fit with respect to the 9 key areas.

      Microsoft is NOT forced to ship an operating system that cannot download files. This responsibility has merely shifted to the OEM to configure these 9 tools.

      Also, all the Microsoft add-ons must be priced at a pro-rated value relative to the stripped down Windows. That means the OEMs pay for Windows, and pay separately for each add-on based on value added.

      With this proposal, and full disclosure of relevant APIs for each of the 9 key areas, competition for userspace tools would be restored to these key markets. Microsoft's leveraging power would be stripped, and its software could only compete on its own merits.

    3. Re:Why this fixation on Modular Windows? by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 3, Informative
      2) Microsoft must release full API documentation detailing all APIs that non-OS tasks can call.

      I wish. I seem to recall seeing a former MS employee saying though that often there is no documentation even inside the company. Thing is you see, because of the internal structure of the company product teams often don't document their work so as to ensure their project isn't killed or they aren't split up. By keeping the docs inside their heads, they help increase their job security.

      This leads to the "secret" APIs in Windows/Office/whatever that Microsofts enemies like to jump on - it's not really an evil conspiracy (though MS do enough evil stuff as it is), it's more an indictment of their internal corporate organisation skills.

  10. How can 'open' win against this? by km790816 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When Microsoft has billions going into research and a dominant desktop position, how can one expect an open AV standard to become prevelent, especailly when one considers the effort that goes into creating good codecs.

    Don't get me wrong. If I had to pick between Real, QT, and Windows Media, I'd take Windows Media. QT asks me every damn time I look at something if I want to buy it. Real runs hidden applications when Windows loads and only recently stopped its practice of asking me if I want to upgrade.

    Is the problem with universities? Are any researcher doing work on codecs that could end up in the open forum? Does Ogg Vorbis do everything that we need?

    --
    A speech...
    1. Re:How can 'open' win against this? by Nurf · · Score: 3, Informative

      Is the problem with universities? Are any researcher doing work on codecs that could end up in the open forum?

      I agree with you, and have decided to do something about it. OIC is a video codec I am writing. I hope it will be ready for prime time in a matter of months. No promises though. :-)

      Check my sig for a link if you are interested.

      --
      ---
  11. Slightly Misleading by datastew · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The quote in the story is a little misleading. Here is the full quote:

    Another Microsoft executive, Dave Foster, cut the discussion short: "No more replies," he wrote. "We need to keep all of this off the airwaves."

    The Microsoft executive is stating that the discussion of what they are doing and why needs to be kept off the email "airwaves." In my mind, this is actually more damning, because it intimates that he knows what they are doing could get them in trouble.

  12. Let's not forget ... by TheViffer · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Real Audio + Quicktime + Windows Media Player + Win amp all installed on the same machine is complete cluster f*** and a battle ground. I am sure there are a few more that I am forgetting, but this is a good start.

    If a computer had emotions and I installed all these applications at the same time, it would be begging me to format its hard drive to stop the suffering.

    --
    -- Knowing too much can get you killed, but knowing who knows too much can make you rich.
    1. Re:Let's not forget ... by ari{Dal} · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Amen to that.

      That's one 'feature' that i'd love to see beat into the ground. Just about every product that has competitors (as most do) include those stupid @*()#&@( popups to reassociate them with format x. If i wanted program y associated with format x, i woulda left it checked when i installed the bloody thing.

      At least most have the option to never show this again... realplayer is just a complete bitch for this, which is why i don't use it. ever. i'm also quickly getting fed up with quicktime's 'UPGRADE TO QUICKTIME PRO', adobe's "THERES MORE TO ACROBAT THAN JUST READER!", and winamp's "VERSION XXX IS NOW OUT! DOWNLOAD?".

      but what pisses me off the most is no matter how often you uncheck or say no to all these things, they somehow get mysteriously 'reset' every few weeks.

      And is it just me, or are those 'never show this message again' buttons getting fewer and fewer? nowadays they're buried somewhere in the nether regions of the user preferences section, with ever more obscure wording.

      --
      Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo - H. G. Wells
  13. Stop whining about MS.... by southpolesammy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...and go use something else. This is the kind of thing that drives me a bit insane, since this fuels the fire of people thinking that using Microsoft products is the only way of using a computer. "I can't use this because Microsoft won't let me....wahhhhh...." There are other products out there. Don't like Internet Explorer? Go use Opera. Don't like MS Office, go use OpenOffice. Don't like Windows? Go use Linux or Mac OSX, or FreeBSD, or etc...

    If enough people start using other products, perhaps Microsoft will take notice and start building things that people actually want. It's called market tendencies folks...not exactly rocket science.

    --
    Rule #1 -- Politics always trumps technology.
  14. lather...rinse.. repeat... by ari{Dal} · · Score: 4, Insightful

    *shock* *gasp* *amazement* MS used underhanded tactics that were exposed in the trial and/or corporate emails. I feel like we're caught in a timewarp.

    I wish once and for all that the general public and the US Court would realise that this is just another day at MS, and that we likely won't see the end of this type of MS BS til they actually implement either a breakup, or some other REAL sanctions.

    If they won't play nicely with the other children, take away their toys. That's what parents do with spoiled children (at least they did when i was growing up).

    --
    Moral indignation is jealousy with a halo - H. G. Wells
  15. RealOne Player is actually worse, IMO. by Jayde+Stargunner · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Really, the first time IE 6.0 pops up its media window, it gives you a "Do you want to use the Media Bar to play all audio files?" prompt. I chose "No", and IE never bothered me with file associations again.

    On the other hand, I installed RealOne a few weeks back and desipte unckeck a huge list of files it wanted to take over, I still grabbed quite a few. I attempted to reassociate them with Media Player and other programs, and guess what happened...

    Next time I opened RealOne player, it popped up some "File Associations Agent" which said: "Another program or programs have attempted to associate RealOne Player-assoicated files with themselves. RealOne Player has re-associated all files."

    WTF???

    Nowhere did I choose to have these files associated with RealOne Player, nor did I choose any "maintain file associations" button. Not to mention, you can't even get rid of the resident aspects of RealOne Player. Just about every time I boot my computer (which, admittedly, is very rarely) I get some "RealOne Player Critical Notification" box that pops up. As far as I can tell, the best you can do is make it only show up "A few times a month"--there is no "GO AWAY YOU FSCKING ANNOYING POP-UP WINDOW!!!" option that I could find.

    So, yeah. As evil as MS may possibly be, I don't feel bad for RealPlayer on this one. =P

    -Jayde

    --
    What's a sig?
  16. How to shut up QuickTime's upgrade reminders by cpeterso · · Score: 5, Informative

    QT asks me every damn time I look at something if I want to buy it.

    1. Set your system time many years ahead (like 2010)
    2. Run QuickTime
    3. When it asks you if you would like to upgrade, say no (of course!)
    4. QuickTime will then write some secret registry key to remember when it should next remind you to upgrade. Fortunately, your next reminder is now scheduled for the year 2010! ;-)
    5. Be sure to set your system time back!

    --
    cpeterso
    1. Re:How to shut up QuickTime's upgrade reminders by Wumpus · · Score: 3, Funny

      Hey, that circumvents a technological measure that controls access to copyrighted work!

  17. Further bad testimony from Microsoft by burgburgburg · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Attempted to submit earlier today:

    Microsofties testifying poorly for the company. Yesterday, Microsoft's Will Poole, vice president in charge of the company's Windows New Media Platform division, conceded that he couldn't think of anything Microsoft had done with its audio and video capabilities to address a trial court's April 2000 findings against the company.

    The states also brought out an email from a different Microsoft employee, Kurt Buecheler, who wrote that when Microsoft went to distribute market development money to computer manufacturers, "a key criteria will be shipping Windows Media Player."

    Today, when the states lawyer enquired as to why IE6 played music files with WMP technology even if the user had selected RealPlayer as their default, Microsoft executive Linda Averett said Microsoft could use RealNetworks software to play music in Internet Explorer, but chooses not to.

    "The reason it is not replaceable is that Microsoft does not allow it to be replaceable, correct?" Schmidtlein (dissenting states attorney) asked.

    "Correct, it is an integrated feature," Averett testified.

    She also testified about the complaint by RealNetworks that the XP search program couldn't find RealNetworks files. She claimed it was a mistake that had been fixed two weeks ago. This would make it a month after states' top lawyer, Brendan Sullivan, showed the search problem during opening arguments as evidence of Microsoft's wrongdoing.

    Yesterday's testimony: http://news.com.com/2100-1001-900213.html
    Today's testimony: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/technology/AP-Micr osoft-Antitrust.html

  18. Re:Put up or shut up. by Chris+Johnson · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Read this: Compulsory Windows

    If you cannot comprehend a world where something like Microsoft can hunt down and make use of ways to use some people's need or desire to run Windows, to strike bargains where EVERYONE is required to pay for and get Windows like it or not... even to the extent where, as in the Reg's report, Macintosh seats in the edu market are required to pay for Windows Upgrades they cannot even run, then how about you shut up?

    I mean, it's like you're talking about a free market or something.

    When a Microsoft can say, "Oh, you have to buy copies of our stuff for EVERYTHING, in fact every person who sets foot on campus, including dogs and pigeons" and get away with it because the 70%-90% of Windows seats MUST be served...

    When those seats MUST get current Windows OSes because Microsoft bundles stuff with the OS and makes it compulsory to make use of other aspects of the Windows environment, whether that be IMing or a new media codec or web pages in the wild that require the version of IE only bundled with the system...

    Then you don't have a free market anyway, so enough with your 'just choooooose something else'. It won't work. Without a free market choice is vanity. Trust me on this, I've exercised the vanity of choosing Macs for _years_ and look where MS is now! Like I hurt them. Sheesh.

  19. Re:"Open" Needs Standards by catfood · · Score: 3, Insightful
    [T]he public sees the absurd "emacs vs. vi" and "KDE vs. GNOME" arguments perpetuated because there is no accepted standards in desktop environments...

    What better, more standard, standard could there be? Both EMACS and vi read and write the universal linefeed-delimited plain ASCII format by default. That is a hell of a standard!

    (I don't know enough about Gnome to comment on KDE vs. Gnome.)

    You seem to be using the word "standard" in a Gatesian way, where a particular application is called "standard" if you can get everyone to use that application. When Open Source and Free Software people say "standard" we mean practically the opposite--that you can use any application you want because they all share the underlying APIs and file formats!

    Gatesian "standards," when properly implemented, mean no choice. OSS and FS "standards," when properly implemented, mean unlimited choice. Know the difference.