Slashdot Mirror
Michael Smith Leaves Core
Donald Burr of Borg writes "Following in the footsteps of Jordan Hubbard,
Michael Smith leaves the FreeBSD core team. Reasons cited are similar to those that jkh gave, including displeasure at the bureacracy and politicking, and FreeBSD not being "fun" anymore."
There, now that that's out of the way, people can make real comments now! Put all related trolls under here for convenient filtering.
I like that 3-line "article" Slashdot uses as an "article." Sigh.
To the Slashdot "BSD is dying" crowd - big deal. Death is part of the
cycle; take a look at your soft, pallid bodies and consider that right
this very moment, parts of you are dying. See? It's not so bad.
The ultimate anti-troll.
What the fuck !. I'm not on slashdot very often
but fuck ! You are so troll. Are you sick of the "BSD is dying". I am !. Your _*REALLY_ feed the stupid troll. Is it the slashdot goal ?. Is the slashdot slogan "We feed the troll since 1997 !".
I don't know what is more startling: that a core BSD member thinks "BSD is dying" trolls are worth addressing or that he seems to be saying that they're right.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet again, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.
You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood
. FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of longtime FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only underscore the point more clearly.
Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.
Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.
All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.
Fact: *BSD is dying
While I happen to use OpenBSD, I don't think this spells the end of FreeBSD, any more than any of the changes that come to the Tech sector spell the end of a company. What happened to the IBM PC after Estridge was killed in a plane crash? IBM went on. Maybe they didn't _own_ the market in a few years, but hey, they are still around. What about all the top guys leaving Microsoft? Paul Allen, etc. yet they still rake in the bucks.
With the way opensource, and *BSD is spread out, the exodus of a few "core" members is not tragic. Maybe a wakeup call to get a little smoother on the politics, but that is life.
Move along folks, there is nothing of interest here, OH WAIT! Is that the *BSD is Dying troll over there? Nah, just some bozo...
When I stood for election to the FreeBSD core team nearly two years
ago, many of you will recall that it was after a long series of
debates during which I maintained that too much organisation, too many
rules and too much formality would be a bad thing for the project.
Today, as I read the latest discussions on the future of the FreeBSD
project, I see the same problem; a few new faces and many of the old
going over the same tired arguments and suggesting variations on the
same worthless schemes. Frankly I'm sick of it.
FreeBSD used to be fun. It used to be about doing things the right
way. It used to be something that you could sink your teeth into when
the mundane chores of programming for a living got you down. It was
something cool and exciting; a way to spend your spare time on an
endeavour you loved that was at the same time wholesome and
worthwhile.
It's not anymore. It's about bylaws and committees and reports and
milestones, telling others what to do and doing what you're told.
It's about who can rant the longest or shout the loudest or mislead
the most people into a bloc in order to legitimise doing what they
think is best. Individuals notwithstanding, the project as a whole
has lost track of where it's going, and has instead become obsessed
with process and mechanics.
So I'm leaving core. I don't want to feel like I should be "doing
something" about a project that has lost interest in having something
done for it. I don't have the energy to fight what has clearly become
a losing battle; I have a life to live and a job to keep, and I won't
achieve any of the goals I personally consider worthwhile if I remain
obligated to care for the project.
Discussion
==========
I'm sure that I've offended some people already; I'm sure that by the
time I'm done here, I'll have offended more. If you feel a need to
play to the crowd in your replies rather than make a sincere effort to
address the problems I'm discussing here, please do us the courtesy
of playing your politics openly.
From a technical perspective, the project faces a set of challenges
that significantly outstrip our ability to deliver. Some of the
resources that we need to address these challenges are tied up in the
fruitless metadiscussions that have raged since we made the mistake
of electing officers. Others have left in disgust, or been driven
out by the culture of abuse and distraction that has grown up since
then. More may well remain available to recruitment, but while
the project is busy infighting our chances for successful outreach
are sorely diminished.
There's no simple solution to this. For the project to move forward,
one or the other of the warring philosophies must win out; either the
project returns to its laid-back roots and gets on with the work, or
it transforms into a super-organised engineering project and executes a
brilliant plan to deliver what, ultimately, we all know we want.
Whatever path is chosen, whatever balance is struck, the choosing and
the striking are the important parts. The current indecision and
endless conflict are incompatible with any sort of progress.
Trying to dissect the above is far beyond the scope of any parting
shot, no matter how distended. All I can really ask of you all is to
let go of the minutiae for a moment and take a look at the big
picture. What is the ultimate goal here? How can we get there with
as little overhead as possible? How would you like to be treated by
your fellow travellers?
Shouts
======
To the Slashdot "BSD is dying" crowd - big deal. Death is part of the
cycle; take a look at your soft, pallid bodies and consider that right
this very moment, parts of you are dying. See? It's not so bad.
To the bulk of the FreeBSD committerbase and the developer community
at large - keep your eyes on the real goals. It's when you get
distracted by the politickers that they sideline you. The tireless
work that you perform keeping the system clean and building is what
provides the platform for the obsessives and the prima donnas to have
their moments in the sun. In the end, we need you all; in order to
go forwards we must first avoid going backwards.
To the paranoid conspiracy theorists - yes, I work for Apple too. No, my
resignation wasn't on Steve's direct orders, or in any way related to work
I'm doing, may do, may not do, or indeed what was in the tea I had at
lunchtime today. It's about real problems that the project faces, real
problems that the project has brought upon itself. You can't escape them
by inventing excuses about outside influence, the problem stems from
within.
To the politically obsessed - give it a break, if you can. No, the
project isn't a lemonade stand anymore, but it's not a world-spanning
corporate juggernaut either and some of the more grandiose visions
going around are in need of a solid dose of reality. Keep it simple,
stupid.
To the grandstanders, the prima donnas, and anyone that thinks that
they can hold the project to ransom for their own agenda - give it a
break, if you can. When the current core were elected, we took a
conscious stand against vigorous sanctions, and some of you have
exploited that. A new core is going to have to decide whether to
repeat this mistake or get tough. I hope they learn from our errors.
Future
======
I started work on FreeBSD because it was fun. If I'm going to
continue, it has to be fun again. There are things I still feel
obligated to do, and with any luck I'll find the time to meet those
obligations.
However I don't feel an obligation to get involved in the political
mess the project is in right now. I tried, I burnt out. I don't feel
that my efforts were worthwhile. So I won't be standing for election,
I won't be shouting from the sidelines, and I probably won't vote in
the next round of ballots.
You could say I'm packing up my toys. I'm not going home just yet,
but I'm not going to play unless you can work out how to make the
project somewhere fun to be again.
= Mike
--
To announce that there must be no criticism of the president,
or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not
only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to
the American public. - Theodore Roosevelt
BSD will no longer sing mellow christian rock favorites?
I did not design this game/I did not name the stakes/I just happen to like apples/And I am not afraid of snakes-AniD
Back on topic, it is kind of sad that two respected people have left the FreeBSD core team, but things have to evolve and projects need to become somewhat dynamic rather than stay stagnant. Companies cannot survive with the same set of people on their board of directors forever either (though some wish that isn't the case).
As projects get more committers, programmers, and commenters, the harder it is to keep focused and be able to agree on the same thing. I think that Linux has shown some of the same symptoms (disagreements between how kernel patches should be handled, etc.).
Just some of my thoughts... that's all.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish....
Now seriously, thank you
The other
Is it perhaps time for younger people, like Joseph Mallet, to start having more influence within the FreeBSD project?
Seems odd that major players are dropping out of the FreeBSD core, but Net and Open are doing just fine.
Hope they finish SMPng before the project implodes - means I might finally buy a second proc for my OpenBSD machine when the code finds its way into that fork.
--saint
Hmm...nothing in the above responses rates more than a score of 2 on the moderated /. list. Maybe that's what Mike means - the quality isn't what it used to be. Dunno, I'm too busy trying to fix bugs in ports that used to work when Jordan ran things. Hmm...
Not to troll or anything, but it _is_ true.
FreeBSD might have been excellent in some areas like stability, but they completely ignored the concept of marketing.
For the last time, technical excellence (real or perceived) is not enough to succeed in any market even if you are literally giving the product away.
For example, IDE disk operations are quite slow in FreeBSD by default compared to Linux.
Most newbies won't spend the time fiddling with mount options or kernel ide flags or patching.
They just choose what's more practical by default (Linux).
While the BSD advocates live in their ivory towers the world is moving on.
This is something anyone who has been involved in
a big project knows and to be honest if Mike Smith
finds this a problem then he should either have
left long ago or gone and got a dose of reality
himself before he joined. You will never find a
group of homogenised drones who share the same
common view about everything even in places like
microsoft so in a freeware project such as BSD
you've got no chance of an easy life if people
disagree with something you may be doing.
People are people, you're always going to get
egotists , the ones who are always right, the ones
who like giving orders, the ones who refuse to
take responsibilty for their actions and so on.
All I can say is Welcome to The Real World Mr Smith.
We wish the entire FreeBSD team well and appreciate your efforts and commitment. I think the key issue IMHO may be to try and understand the challenges of the entire FreeBSD structure. i.e. are the issues technical or non-technical ? Specifically what are they and what can be done to help ? Sometimes it helps to redefine roles, revisit responsibilities, priorities and expectations.
I think it must be no easy task for core members to understand and resolve such issues. Maybe some kind of a neutral third party could look at the structure and provide positive input to help facilitate the smooth and focused operation of our entire FreeBSD team/effort ?
Or, maybe it is as simple as reiterating and refreshing the rule book (if one exists ?). This may ensure that everyone is on the same page with regards to roles, responsibilites, priorities and expectations. What do you folks think ?
Frankly I think this is self serving in the worst way.
If Smith were gracious, and having dealt with him I can assure you he is not, he would pass the torch with grace rather than a flick of his self important troll wrist.
ESR even had a suggestion about the duty of working on an Open Source project, when you are tired of it, of finding someone new or simply dropping it. But this "after me, the deluge" tripe is thoroughly in his character.
YHBT YHL FOAD
Does this mean FBSD-5.0 is going to be delayed yet again?
Remember that 5.0 was delayed by a year last year so that 5.0 would be more polished -- maybe it was delayed because the core team spends too much time bickering amongst each other?
I'm thisclose to making the switch from Linux to FBSD, but news like this makes me hesitant. After all, is this going to mean that the quality of the code or innovation in FBSD will decrease, now that some of the people who know FBSD best are dropping out?
That leaves the core's newer people to try and pick up where they left off. Can it be done? Only time will tell...
Seriously, all trolls aside - does FBSD have a future? Or is the fact that Linux and OSX take the *nix-world's limelight 99% of the time going to ensure that FBSD loses more and more users and developers?
Are there any *real* statistics that give an idea as to how many people currently use FBSD? The "BSD is dying" troll obviously uses "fuzzy math" to get his numbers and hasn't updated them in ages, and yet, they're really the only numbers that I've seen - and they're basically made-up...
I'd like to switch, but nobody - myself included - wants to use a "dying" OS...
Gnome, KDE, Samba, Wine, etc., all of these were started by the Linux community. They are at their heart Linux software. Hey, even FreeBSD had to switch their object file format because Linux did. BSD object files were dropped by the GCC project. Capping it all, Red Hat owns GCC now since buying out Cygnus.
The reality is that the BSD software landscape is best characterized as a barren wasteland. BSD software is mostly hand-me-downs from other projects, the crumbs off others' tables. Whatever FreeBSD 5.0 will become, it is now certain that it will fall far short of its goals. It is a disaster in progress.
Slashdot won't let me post a subject one-liner without a gratuitous body.
What are the future plans for FreeBSD?
Something must definately be wrong with this many people leaving the core team. It would be good if the remaining core team could give us a summary on where they think they are headed and then open it up to comments from the commiters and BSD users. Such a discussion may not be so useful on Slashdot , too many trolls, but perhaps a registered discussion board on FreeBSD.org would be a good way to get a bigger picture of where te core wants to take the project and where the rest of the community actually sees it going. Perhaps all the arguments that keep coming up in core discussion could be voted on in this discussion group.
This may not answer all the problems, but it would give the rest of the BSD users a better view of what is going on. It is clear that BSD is not dying, just changing. Ring out the old, ring in the new! The stable release cycle seems to be churning out more releases than ever. With the 4.6 release base already frozen and awaiting finalisation I look forward to the new release, but I look more forward to a bright future for FreeBSD.
Saying your OS is the best because more people use it is like saying MacDonalds make the best food
One more crippling bombshell ht the already beleaguered *BSD community when IDC confirmed that *BSD market share has dropped yet gain, now down to less than a fraction of 1 percent of all servers. Coming on the heels of a recent Netcraft survey which plainly states that *BSD has lost more market share, this news serves to reinforce what we've known all along. *BSD is collapsing in complete disarray, as fittingly exemplified by failing dead last in the recent Sys Admin comprehensive networking test.
You don't need to be a Kreskin to predict *BSD's future. The hand writing is on the wall: *BSD faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for *BSD because *BSD is dying. Things are looking very bad for *BSD. As many of us are already aware, *BSD continues to lose market share. Red ink flows like a river of blood.
FreeBSD is the most endangered of them all, having lost 93% of its core developers. The sudden and unpleasant departures of long time FreeBSD developers Jordan Hubbard and Mike Smith only serve to underscore the point more clearly. There can no longer be any doubt: FreeBSD is dying.
Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.
OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of NetBSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.
Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.
All major surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among OS dilettante dabblers. *BSD continues to decay. Nothing short of a miracle could save it at this point in time. For all practical purposes, *BSD is dead.
Fact: *BSD is dying
I think that this sort of talk is exactly the reason he left.
I don't mean this as a flame at you directly, but in this whole article theres lots of "they should do this", "appoint that", "change system".
Somehow I think its those discussions which detract most from real work.
Jason
Smith complains that whoever shouts the loudest wins. His parting shot has him "shouting" by quitting and airing his dirty laundry in public. In this effort he displays little class and I'd say the core team will be much better off without him. The strengths of FreeBSD are due mostly to the core team concept. There is no requirement for it to be fun. If you don't like doing it, then move on graciously.
Go burn a cross, Nazi. Why do you hate Jews so much??