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System Administrators - College or Career?
Chicks_Hate_Me asks: "I'm a Senior in High School right now and I'm graduating soon (hopefully!) and I was wondering what the hell I should do? My teachers are all telling me I should go to college, but they don't know much about computers so they automatically assume that I wan't to be a programmer or an engineer. I want to be neither, in fact, I want to become a System Administrator. Is college really the best option? Or should I concentrate on getting certification, experience, and taking a few junior college classes on the side? I've already gotten a few job consultancy offers in the area. What has the experience been for any of you out in the tech industry? For you that went to college, did it truly help? And for you that didn't go to college, has it been harder for you to find a job? Also, if you believe that I should go to college, what should I major in? But if you think I shouldn't, what certifications would hold valuable in the future, and what kind of job positions should I take now?" The never ending question. College is a valuable experience for most, but it's also expensive and time consuming. Might that time be better spent in the job market now rather than later (current conditions notwithstanding)?
College, and certs will get you in the door. So will a resume. Learn your skills. Since you are so young, you could probably undercut those who are more qualified. Know your stuff, and try for Junior-admin positions. Get a cert or two, so they will actually call you back, but concentrate on knowing your craft. If you are willing to move, do nation-wide searches for a job. Some areas have too many techs, but other areas are starving for them.
If you have the opportunity to go to college, take it. At this point in your life, you do not *really* know what you want to do. College will expose you to many possible careers. Not only that, but you might acquire additional skills that will provide you with a backup plan when you burn out on sysadmin'ing...
* Move to a cheap college state like Arizona (in-state is $1000/semester, you can qualify for in-state tuition after living there a year)
* Work and play for a year while you get instate.
* Enjoy college. Those are good years and you'll work the rest of your natural born life (save the low-probability cash-out option; see "unemployed", "options", "mortgage")
* College degrees are often important. Not always, and it doesn't always matter what they are. Sysadmining in college is a pretty good gig.
I suggest you start early by ripping the wings off flies while telling them, "sorry, new security policy"
--
Bwahahahaaaa
Martin, sys admin bastard
Theres no doubt that just having a four year degree on your resume increases your chances to get a good job. Experience will only get you so far in the job market. The Higher the salary range, the more and more they are going to expect a degree. Plus it Shows u have enuff dedication to get threw college to get one.
Most system administrators do not know enough to be truly useful. Not coincidentally, many have not had formal training in Computer "Science" or Engineering. Go to college. Learn about how things really work, not the regurgitated pablum that is spread by corporate sponsored certifications.
Since it looks like you aren't planning on going to a university this fall, it wouldn't hurt to get a certification or two in the upcoming year. But definitely go to university. To go immediately into the work world out of high school seems like a complete waste of youth to me. There are many more entertaining ways to waste those precious years between 18 and 24 than slaving long hours as a sysadmin.
A well-crafted lie appears unquestionable - Dama Mahaleo
College level CS degrees are not a good investment if you have aptitude.
I say take a more targeted approach for now and go to college when, and only when, you become bored, burnt out, disenchanted, frustrated and really sick and tired of all those god damned "college boys" who make more than you but REALLY just don't know DICK!
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
GeneralEmergency
Step 1. Travel. Go to europe (or the US, depending on where you're not). See what life in the rest of the world is like. You can actually travel for pretty cheap, and when I was last on the road ('95), it was pretty easy to work under the table in much of europe. It won't be the high-life, but it's worth getting out there.
Step 2. Go to college. College is about learning what you don't know you don't know. Not about learning what you know you don't know.
I recommend working after the first year or 2 in college - even if you[r parents] can afford not to.
Step 3. Get a job - a real job. Not the one you worked in college. Even if that was a real job. Get away and get more experience elsewhere.
The important thing is to see a lot of different stuff.
IMHO...
I'm in college now. You are confused a little as I was. In Computer Science (at most universities), you have what's called a 'Software track' or 'Systems track'. In the Software track, programming and software development is more emphasized. In the Systems track, system administration is more emphasized. You should definately go to college, becuase as a sysadmin you will have opportunities to advance. Without a college education, you won't have as good of a chance to advance. College will also develope you socially and in other subjects such as political science, etc. College in today's competitive society is a must, especially with foreign competition becoming more feirce.
... Without a degree. Lots of times on interviews, people ask "Do you have a degree?" To some people it matters, to others it doesn't. Generally schools like to see that you have a degree, for various reasons. Once I asked "If I did, would it even make a difference?" The person who was interviewing me said 'Probably not'.
... Sometimes i wonder if it would help, as right now I'm out of a job, and starting to get desperate .. ;). But I have one thing a person who spent 4 years in college won't have over me, and thats 5 years experience as a System Administrator. Who would you rather have in charge of your systems, someone who has been doing this for a while now, or someone who's only read about it?
....
...
My parents also always push to get a degree
Anyway, congrats on wanting to be an SA, its a good career choice I think, as you get exposed to a lot, and it can lead to other things, programming, DBA, network guy etc etc
Over all though, college looks like its a lot of fun, if a lot of work. If your parents will pay for it, I say go for it! Maybe you'll get to go to a few good parties
Choose no life. Choose System Administration.
I'd strongly suggest college, for two reasons.
Firstly, whether it's fair or not, a lot of places simply won't look at your resume for any technical position unless you have a post-secondary degree of some kind. If you have many years of experience (3 minimum), you may be able to get by on past work alone, but even then you'll be less favoured for raises and promotions because of the impression that you're less "skilled".
Secondly, going through the computer stream, the business stream, or both, in college, will give you extra perspective on where the demands of management and the coders are coming from, and how to balance their requests. You'll be able to do a better job (not all of the job is technical).
Thirdly, it gives you flexibility and mobility in your job. You're qualified for being more than just a sysadmin, so you can take other positions if there are no sysadmin jobs available or if your interests change over time. Choice is usually a good idea.
In summary, I think that college would be very valuable for you at your current career stage.
Try and see the big picture. How do you know you want to be a Systems Administrator? And will you want to be one in five years?
Go and get your computer science degree. Plus you will never forget those four or five years. You'll make new friends.
Finally, if you can prolong your arrival into the real world, by all means do it!
These days, I can pretty much guarantee you that a degree of any kind will get your resume looked at much faster than those without degrees listed.
In the whole dot-bomb craze, a lot of people dropped out of high school and college, and went to work for obscene amounts of money. Now, many companies have realized that it take more than a working knowledge of whatever field is popular - it doesn't matter if you're the world's greatest genius in a particular field if you can't do the *other* parts of the job, like interacting with customers, making clear notes about what you've done for the runbook, and generally communicating with your co-workers.
I got my degree on the ten-year plan. It's not in a computer-related field, but having it means that more doors are open to me.
Specialization is for insects. - R.A.H.
Even given the arguments against going to college, I would still go for the experience. I've seen countless folks who've not gone to college (that I now work with!) who are paid well, but do not possess the "got to get this working no matter what" attitude that one gets while attending a formal college. Those co-workers are the 9-5'ers who call it quits at 5pm no matter what. My other college-educated co-workers are:
- more intelligent
- more hard working
- climbing the career ladder much faster
Now's the opportunity - jump in and learn all you can while you still can.
Do it for da shorties
Decide early if you want a trade, or a career in the tech industry.
College will give you an opportunity to think, learn, and develop research skills. Certification won't teach you anything.
I don't want anyone working for me who just knows how to be a sys admin. I want thinkers, people who understand that systems exist to benefit the business. Just about anyone can learn what it takes to be a good admin; not everyone can learn to think.
Technology is not the end; certifications and trade school won't teach you that.
The job market right now is EXTREMELY thin, so you're probably going to be better off if you can really separate yourself from other candidates. At the very least, make sure you have SEVERAL certifications (an MCSE alone isn't gonna land you a job these days). Go for combinations of varying certs that compliment each other. For example, try pairing a CCNA (Cisco) with a CNA (Novell) or RHCE (Red Hat). That should get you off to a good start.
You might also want to look into a two-year technical degree to further compliment the certifications. It doesn't really mean much, but it does give you an advantage over the guys who don't have it. And besides that, it will allow you to "sit out" of the job market until it picks up again (analysts are guessing that the next two years should be pretty good for IT guys).
Good luck, in any event.
But there is much more to sysadmin than that. The best sysadmins need just as much technical background as "programmers" -- they need to understand their system end-to-end, and know how to tune it, change it, and deploy it.
I know many programmers look down on sysadmins. But IMHO administration can be just as much a technical track as programming, and can benefit from as much background as you can get.
In addition, when I'm hiring sysadmins, what separates "junior" from "senior" folks is their ability to program. It might be in perl instead of java/c++/whatever, but I want admins to be able to automate their day-to-day tasks so they don't have to do things by hand all the time.
I've found that the largest barrier to entering management is the lack of a degree. The chance that you will be the *insert 3 letter business acronym here; C*O etc.* of a successful company (a la Gates, Ellison) without a degree are very, very slim.
;)).
If you don't mind being a SA forever, don't worry about a degree. If you want to be a CTO, VP Technology, etc. (making the big bucks, *really* being able to make a difference, etc.) then you'll need a BS/BA in the least (MBA doesn't hurt
Thanks,
--
Matt
I dropped out after a year and started doing tech support at a local ISP making shit, had a friend that helped me get a foot in the door doing NOC work at MediaOne, did really good, they sent me to some solaris training, and I ended up getting a admin job at a little start up. So basically in the time that collage would have taken (4 years) I managed to be making 60k/year doing what I wanted.
Of course, I ended up getting laid off. So I guess the best advice would be if you stay with a nice big company (like a cable company). STAY! They had better benifits (might not seem like a big deal now, but they will), better 401k matching, WAY more stability, and they actually sent me to real training classes where I could get real certs. And don't listen to start ups, they say what they want to get you in the door, then they screw you out of what they said.. This hasn't just happened to me, I'm sure there is plenty of examples.
Free Mac Mini
Go to school as much as you can. You will have the rest of your life to work. Not necessarilly college (which I think you should attend), but any formalized learning past high school.
I strongly believe that continuing education provides you with a better framework to deal with real-world problems.
In general you may find it harder to find open positions, or advance your career. Sad state of the world is that people are judgemental, and college is becoming a standard.
College also affords you the chance to live on your own but still have a strong support network if you get into trouble socially or financially - a safe place to screw up.
Choose no life. Choose sysadminning. Choose no career. Choose no family. Choose a fucking big computer, choose hard disks the size of washing machines, old cars, CD ROM writers and electrical coffee makers. Choose no sleep, high caffeine and mental insurance. Choose fixed interest car loans. Choose a rented shoebox. Choose no friends. Choose black jeans and matching combat boots. Choose a swivel chair for your office in a range of fucking fabrics. Choose NNTP and wondering why the fuck you're logged on on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting in that chair looking at mind-numbing, spirit-crushing web sites, stuffing fucking junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pishing your last on some miserable newsgroup, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, fucked up lusers Gates spawned to replace the computer-literate.
Choose your future.
Choose sysadmining.
There are two ways (generally) that you can become a Sys Admin for a company. The first takes for granted that you're looking for a company that knows what a Sys Admin does and actually has a separate IT department. The second way involves a company that has only just incorporated IT into their day-to-day business and is looking for Someone To Help With Computers (aka a Sys Admin).
The first scenario largely involves bigger companies and would most likely require an extensive (and diploma'd) knowledge of IT administration. The second scenario involves (usually) smaller outfits that are simply looking for an Alpha Geek with good credentials and a letter of reference from somewhere, not necessarily a seasoned vet or a college-trained guru.
It really depends on what kind of environment you're looking to start in.
This wasn't just plain terrible, this was fancy terrible. This was terrible with raisins in it. - Dorothy Parker
I've been working for Raytheon for a bit over three years as a systems geek. They just hired a new systems geek to do the same thing I do in the same place on the same contract. They started him at $10k more because he has a degree, even though he has less experience.
Get your degree if you're going to enter the commercial sector in big business.
"Population 1,656"
Amazing how people don't learn from history, or in this case, now.
A few years ago, everyone was skipping college, picking up a "programming for dummies" book and making 50K a year riding scooters around the office.
Some of us went to college, worked hard, got degrees, and then went out and got the same jobs.
Then the economy went belly up and everyone without a degree is now trying to get the job they once had back. A lot of people with degrees are trying to get those jobs now too.
You might know your stuff, you might be super great, but most people will hire someone who cared enough about their career and what they do to go to college in the first place over those who did not.
There are a lot of people in these forums who would disagree I'm sure. But there is no denying that a college degree goes a long way in todays workplace. And since companies can't afford to make the same mistakes they made in the 90's, things will stay that way...
You think you want to be a sysadmin. That's because you're young and stupid. (Sorry, dude, but every high school senior is young and stupid.) You don't yet know how demoralizing it is to work as a sysadmin. The pay gets a lot less attractive as soon as you have a family. You get very little respect, very little appreciation, in order to do a good job as a sysadmin you have to give solemn orders to people above you in the org chart of your work place, which makes you a prime target at every round of layoffs. The hardware and software both such and drive you to exasperation.
The hours suck rocks through a garden hose. Trust me on this, there is nothing more demoralizing than rushing to work to fix an outage at 3 AM because your ISPs clients are getting mad at having to wait for their pron. The hours suck more when you're on call and you realize your wife is better looking and your kids far cuter than any of your cow orkers or clients, and that your wage rate cannot justify a single additional hour away from them.
So, forget about sysadminning, at least for now. Go to college. Shop around for areas of inquiry that might interest you, or might not interest you yet. Join the army. I'm not kidding. The army beats sysadminning hands down. Or try jobs that involve your hands or the open air. But for mercy's sake, don't sysadmin just yet.
- All good admins had good mentors. A good college or university is the place to find them.
- While at college, you can choose a less challenging curriculum and still do some admin work on the side.
- At the end of your college career, you'll already have 2 or 3 years of experience under your belt.
- Stick with Unix- don't waste time with NT or Win2K. Then windows admin market has two dubious issues: A. The market is saturated, making them a $28k/year commodity; and B. It's much harder to distinguish yourself in the industry in a saturated market.
- Beer, women, and community. Those reasons are enough to make me want to go back almost every day
:) .
I can seriously vouch for #'s 1, 2, and 5. By the time I left school, I had 2 years of sysadmin under my belt, and excellent skills because of a good mentor. I was even able to take my time and choose between a couple gigs > $70k.Good luck!
Don't sweat the petty things. But do pet the sweaty things.
Or you could spend it trying to live a beer commercial fantasy and wonder why you wasted 4 years and tens of thousands of dollars. Your choice.
If for only one reason - it opens doors.
Potential employers will give you more serious consideration if you have a degree. It doesn't really make a difference what you want to do, a degree in anything is better than no degree at all.
Also, keep in mind that you might go sour on being a Sys Admin and then all your certifications are worthless. A degree will not be.
If you want more reasons:
- your salary will be automagically higher with a degree.
- a good college will give you a well rounded background in the field you study. This will allow you to acquire new skills easily in that field. Most people fail to understand this point and don't understand why they are learning calculus or discrete math when all they want to do is program.
Go to college, study something that interests you and then go be a Sys Admin.
Almost as bad as not going to school is not working while you're going to school. Holding a job and getting a degree at the same time shows that you can manage your time and handle pressure.
* As is generally the case, my opinions do not reflect those of my employer.
At the time that I graduated from high school, I was planning on a career in medicine or medical research. It made perfect sense because I loved science in general and biology in particular, and I was pretty good at it. So, I spent the next several years getting an honours B.Sc. in molecular biology. In my third year, I started my own software company to help with school expenses. By the time I graduated, I'd decided that, fascinating as it was, biology just wasn't a career thing for me, and I've been in IT ever since.
From that story, you might conclude that the time and money I spent in school was a waste, but that's far from the truth. First, I picked up plenty of soft skills, like research and writing, that I use every day. Second, and more importantly, I discovered what I really wanted to do. And of course, the whole university experience is not something to miss.
So, my suggestion would be to go to school. Don't tie yourself to a career path at the age of 17 or 18. Get exposed to a few different things, have some fun, and give yourself some time to decide.
Please donate your spare CPU cycles to help fight cancer and other diseases
For starters, it's a ton of fun, period. If I could redo my tech career and have a Computer degree (I had a broadcasting degree instead) - I'd have loved it.
Second, a Degree stays, certs have to be renewed
Third, Many HR depts. still are hung up on the whole "4 year degree" thing - not all, and it's not as important as work experience, but I've missed a couple opportunities because of no 4 year degree in the tech field.
Fourth, Completing college shows employers that you have stick to it principles and can focus on long term goals. I know I've gotten some jobs as a college graduate even though I wasn't in the field.
Go - all joking about the ultimate party and co-ed showers aside, it'll be good for your career. You can always do certs in college too if you feel so inclined.
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ah honey, we're all resplendent - Bill Mallonee
I think you need to follow your heart. Do what you want to do. However, let me talk about my experience.
I decided to drop out of college after getting a decent job as a system support tech. It eventually lead to a good network administration job. However, I the down turn of the market resulted in me being out of a job. The problem I ran into was that although I had a great deal of experience there were people that had experience AND degrees that ultimately became more desirable because of the degree. Thus I never found a job. I am now a bartender.
I am not trying to say you should go to college, but even though most people will tell you that college takes a long time and what you learn can be self taught MUCH faster - realize that the paper you get from them carries a lot of weight.
Oh yea, as a small end to my story - I am now back in school and headed into my 3rd semester trying to make up for lost time.
RonB
(Age 28)
It is human nature to take shortcuts in thinking.
There are very few people who can become outstanding system administrators and keep that career path growing without a degree. And it's not based on ability, it's really based on luck, a combination of how the economy goes and the right company needing to hire someone when you're available.
Consider 5 years down the road. Which do you think has a better top-end salary and job opportunities? Engineers can continue to evolve and accept more and more responsibility via bigger budgets, better technology, and more training. SA's generally have a certain number of machines they can fit into their headspace, and then they've topped out.
Consider 10 years down the road. What will the operating systems look like? I don't know, but I can guess that they'll still need to handle things like device access, paging and memory allocation, and process scheduling. Once I figure those bits out, I know how the OS works to a large extent, and I can start making guesses about how many users it can support, how much load it can support, and how much it's going ot cost when it's fully implemented.
In short, do you want to spend your life being a technician or an engineer? If you want to be a technician, the best training is on the job training. If you want to be an engineer, to get anything out of the on the job training you need, you've got to have foundation that you'll pick up in a good computer science curriculum.
However, there are a couple of questions I'd reccommend asking yourself.
- Are you sure that you'll continue to be satisfied with Systems Administration? If you've been doing it for a short time, it's certainly possible that your interest in it stems from the novelty and discovery involved in mastering the subject. But once you've mastered it, is the lack of challenge going to sustain your interest/enjoyment? Most companies don't want a sysadmin who's going to experiment in wierd ways w/ their servers to pique their own interest. They just want uptime and some level of security.
- Are you considering that there are other reasons besides career preparation for going to college? I know that in our material culture the idea of "bettering oneself" has largely fallen by the wayside...
If you're really passionate about Systems Administration and aren't concerned about the magic fading, then by all means, go for it.However, if you're just thinking along the lines of "hey, there's money to be made here and I think I have the chops to cash in without spending any money/time" then I'd say:
- Doing what you love is more important than making money;
- computers aren't going away soon -- if you take the time to explore different things, "better yourself," and discover your true passion and it turns out it's still Systems Administration, we'll still need you!
My most concrete piece of advice is WRT college should you choose to go that route: pick a cheap one (that is, pick the cheapest one that's good enough to meet your needs).Reguardless of what field you get into having a college degree will ALWAYS help you later in life to make more money and have more doors open for you. Even if you get a degree in basket weaving it is still a degree. On top of the job related benefits college is just too damn fun to pass up, not to mention a great place to get laid (I am sure I will get flamed for the last statement, but I don't think it can truely be argued against).
Let me start by saying that I had an overwhelmingly positive college experience. I knew I was a computer geek before I went, and I figured I'd major in CS and become a programmer.
I went to a small liberal arts college with a great CS program. But also important was the fact that there was a student-run web group that had just gotten off the ground (this was 1996, mind you). It was a student club -- none of us were paid for the work that we did, but we maintained several Linux machines for students to serve web pages from (at this time, the college did not provide web space for students, and most students could not set up their own web servers.
I learned a heck of a lot from that club, both from trying things out on my own, but also from being around other people who knew more/different things than I did. I have since applied that knowledge in sysadmin and programming jobs.
All this would seem to indicate that you don't really need classes to get good at being a sysadmin. However, I found classes helpful (and relevant). You'll need to be a good programmer to be a good sysadmin (at least on Unix, anyway -- can't speak to Windows since I don't use it). More importantly, many employers want to see a college degree. It's not 1999 anymore, and you can't just wander into a startup and demand a job because you know a little bash scripting
College is practically a prerequisite for most high-paying jobs now, and even when the economy wasn't soft college was considered important by many employers (at least, all the ones I interviewed with).
So, my feeling is that college is both important to employers, and also a great opportunity to grow and learn from other people like yourself. Yes, it costs money (sometimes a lot of money), but the experience is well worth it. Plus, if you can find a more sysadmin-related group at your school (as I did), the experience can be much more valuable than any certification course you can take. Even if there's no ad-hoc group, you could always look for employment in the college itself (running a public lab, for instance), which both looks good on the resume and gives you valuable experience.
A college degree (no matter in what area) is almost a pre-requisite for the 'good' jobs. Think of it this way, if you are an Employer, and you are hiring for a Systems Admin Position, you have 2 candidates who you need to pick from with equal on the job experience, would you take someone with a college degree over someone without one? Don't get shut out of a possible job just because you don't have a degree.
College also has several other added benefits over typical 'job experience'. College not only teaches you job skills, it teaches you to be resourceful in finding answers you don't automatically know. Programming courses in college have proven invaluable to me as a system admin even though I don't do much programming. Understanding how programming languages work and the data structures involved are not a typical job requirement but end up helping you alot in the long run. One of the best classes I ever took was "Basic Compiler Design" which has absolutely no relevance to any job I ever held, however, it did teach me a commanding knowledge of C++ and advanced data structures. If anything, college teaches you how to research problems and solve them. The college I went to make a specific point in the compsci department of not teaching specific software packages/solutions. Their goal was to teach the student how to learn those specific skills on their own when needed. In hindsight I must say that at the time it made little sense, but now I realize it makes all the sense in the world as those skills come into play almost daily.
And unless you are already married or an introverted supernerd, why in hell would you pass up FOUR YEARS of endless dating/mating possibilities? GO TO COLLEGE JUST FOR THE GIRLS, YOU WILL NEVER HAVE A MORE VARIED POTENTIAL DATING POOL IN YOUR LIFE (unless yer Hugh Hefner).
I think we'd all enjoy a nice cold beverage. -David Letterman
Get your certifications now, and concentrate on getting a job in the field. You'll probably start off at the helpdesk (don't we all?), but if you're knowledgeable and dedicated, you'll be tapped for a promotion soon enough. I'd recommend knowing the Windows clients backwards and forwards, and knowing network basics as well. And don't be afraid to talk to the admins in your company either, they can ALWAYS use help. Just don't act like you're the all knowing God and they're just there because they have an MCSE (even if it's true)...that'll get you nowhere pretty fast.
If you're going to be OS-agnostic, I'd recommend starting with an A+ and Network+ cert (you should be able to get those in less than a month). That should get in the door with an entry level position.
After that, get an MCSA (Microsoft Certfied Systems Administrator) which will easily upgrade to an MCSE. The MCSA should take about 3-6 months to earn. Then, start looking at the RHCE (assuming you have previous Linux/UNIX admin skills, you may want to start with the RHCE...it'll open a LOT of doors, but it's a good bit harder to get than an MCSA/E) to add to your resume. I'd skip the Novell CNA/E (NetWare is dead, Novell just hasn't noticed yet) and save Cisco for later (they're a royal PITA).
At that point, you should have around 2 years experience in the field, and should be able to grab a junior admin position for a larger network, or a sysadmin gig in a smaller shop. Of course, it goees without saying that if you just study for the certs, without knowledge to back it up, you'll be quickly found out and treated accordingly-so make sure you know your stuff as well.
Oh, and while I'm at it, learn Perl and shell programming for Linux/UNIX administration, and WSH/VBScript (or JScript if you prefer) for Windows administration. It'll make life easier and prove a lot of people wrong when they say "you can't do xxxx on Windows/Linux".
If, OTOH, you THINK you want a sysadmin position, but can see yourself changing careers later in life (including IT management), then go to college. Get a degree in SOMETHING (Business Admin, CIS/DIS, Comp. Eng., etc. would all work wonders). That will give you the opportunity to change career tracks later in life. An MCSE/RHCE does not prepare you for a management position.
On the plus side,
work often pays for tuition
you have a lot of experience when the time comes to move into that "real" job.
might even find that real job while going to school (woot!)
Downside?
It will take an extra 2-3 years to get your degree
you may become cold and jaded as the real world exposes you to the way things work in business rather than class.
+++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
Well you have raised a couple of good points here. I will try to help you and address a few of them, but you may find the answers more confusing than helpful. :)
First, Ill start off and let you know what I did for reference, I'm sure it colors my opinions a bit. After graduating from high school I did go off to college. My major, computer science (I'm a "programmer"). I spent about a year and a half at college and finished a little over two years worth of credits. I didn't attend many of my classes and was generally bored. I was also holding down a steady and lucrative contract job in the area.
So, during winter break I decided to see if I could find a "real job". I posted my resume and had a tons of bites, went of a few interviews and had my choice of 5 different spots. I took one of them, and never looked back...
So... this is what I learned. Experience is very important, but so is a degree. They are both integral parts of your value as an employee. Granted, on the job experience is "worth" more, but for a lot of the old school hiring managers, the degree says volumes. Getting your degree is not really about "learning" a trade per say, it really says that you are able, and willing to complete a difficult and time consuming project. It says that you have the ability to stick to it, and the mental capacity the stress of life and work (college).
I am in my second job since "dropping out" (first was a .bomb, I left b4 the bomb part) and I am working my butt off to get my degree finished up using distance education. Has the lack of a degree hurt me, a little bit, but the experience that I have in the field has off set that.
To get to the point... If you can manage to do it, go to school, get a degree... Get a psychology degree or something, expand your horizons, but get your certs and your experience also. Try to hold down a contract gig during the summers, or nights. See about running the night shift for one of the local data centers... But get the degree. You will need it in the future. If you must go to work, then get your degree after hours or through distance education.
When its all said and done you have to do what works for you. If college is something that doesn't work for you, then go get a job, but get the degree. If you love college and its what you want to do, then great! But still try to get some experience and/or certs while your doing it.
Being a well-rounded person will serve you well in the future. Knowing about business and computers is very, very important. I had to learn that the hard way :)
Hope it helps :)
RyanI went for the 'straight-to-a-career' option. I took a job doing tech support for a large OEM, and hated. Fortunately I got promoted to a much better job within the company. I could have stayed there and done pretty well, but I noticed that despite all the extra money I had from working all my friends who went straight to University seemed to be having a much better time than I was. After a year of working, I started my University course.
Now after three years at University, I'm about to finish (here in the UK degree courses are only three years), and I'm finding that job-wise the degree isn't actually helping all that much. Most employers are far more interested in the work I did during summer breaks and part time than the degree course.
Basically, career wise going to University was probably of little benefit. But do I regret it? :)). The first year of University I partied as hard as I could, the second year I eased off on the partying a bit and did more University work, this year has been mainly Uni-work with relativly little partying.
No way, I'm really not looking forward to having to work for a living again instead of getting drunk and stoned most of the time (although I hear in America you have these strange laws where you can't purchase alcahol until the age of 21, but I can't believe that much attention gets paid to that crap..
Also, don't believe everyone who tells you the only way to learn is by doing. You learn a lot that way, but it's certainly not the only way to learn and it's not always the best way either. The extra time you have at Uni means that you can look into something in more depth, read up on the theory behind it, try stuff out etc etc - I found that at work it was mainly a case of getting something to the stage where it worked and then moving on to the next project. There was rarely any time to properly analyse things like you can when you're studying.
Essentially what I'm saying is that whatever you choose you can do well for yourself, but IMO choosing the college route will probably proove to be more fun :) Also, don't think that once you've chosen one path you have to stick with it - you can always decide to go and get a degree later, or drop out of college if you decide it's not for you after all.
Blaming GW Bush for the Iraq war is like blaming Ronald McDonald for the poor quality of food.
Good point--these are not mutually exclusive things. I worked my way through college doing part-time sysadmin work; when I got out, I not only had the degree but four years of real-world experience to put on my resume.
It's not always easy to find places where you can work at the flexible sort of hours required for pulling down a full course load, but it's worth looking for. Large companies with night shifts, small ones that are flexible... there are options. A big selling point I found for getting companies to allow me to work off-hours was "But it's better if I do this stuff when it won't disrupt the users, anyway."
No relation to Happy Monkey
Amen! I've changed my career goals 5 times or more since college--three of those changes while working in the technology area (programmer? manager? db admin?)--and expect to change them again before I retire. The important thing is to not close any doors at this stage and, since there will never be an easier time to go to college, skipping it now could close a door that is hard (although not impossible) to reopen. Also, if you skip college now, you may find in 10-15 years that employers will be saying, "Why hire/promote/retain someone who didn't even get a degree?"
"Love is a familiar; Love is a devil: there is no evil angel but Love." --William Shakespeare ('Love's Labors Lost')
This is long winded, but I went through what you are asking about and I fucked it all up. Pay attention.
A few years ago I dropped out of college after my second year and started working as a full-time sysadmin. During that time I have had multiple jobs, moving from working in the financial industry, to a dotcom (Which crashed and burned.) to government contracting. Each job change has resulted in a huge raise, and my salary (With no degrees or certifications.) has risen to over $65,000 USD with incredible benefits, not bad for a 23 year old college drop out with no degrees or certifications. I have my own car, my own apartment, little debt, and life is generally pretty good. But...
Not a day goes by that I don't regret not staying in school. Having a degree opens doors I never dreamed of, and people who do go through school come out knowing things that you will probably never learn on the job. Every time I turn around I think about all the useful skills I could have picked up by staying in school, especially when it comes to serious programming and computer internals. On top of that, there are always plenty of people who will not take me seriously until I get myself through night school an earn the degree.
I can understand why you might not want to go to college to be a sysadmin; most computer programs don't teach what it takes to do a sysadmin's job. But as a sysadmin who passed on college, you will find yourself trapped in far more limits than the limited choices you may have when it comes to learning to manage a network at school.
So stay in school. Just get yourself through a four-year computer science degree, and spend your time worrying about programming, network and computer internals, and other such stuff. Build good relationships with like minded folks at school and online, because helpful friends, especially on EFNet or mailing lists, will save your ass at work more than any vendor support or book. Plan ahead to find yourself good summer internships at tech related companies, even if you have to just volunteer. Try to get a government internship with a Top Secret clearance and you will be guaranteed a great job as soon as you get out of school.
When it comes to school, it sucks, but it will be worth it. Trust me.
Consider the following:
- You won't want to be a sysadmin forever, so go to college and explore the possibilities. Once you're in a career, it's really difficult to change tracks. You may find later on that you are bored with being a sysadmin, and you want to try out something else. But most jobs don't grant you the luxury of switching gears.
- Having a "theoretical" background from a college education is beneficial even for a sysadmin. It gives you a framework for acquiring knowledge and understanding. Just knowing how to run a Solaris box or make an ethernet cable isn't enough. You need the higher-level knowledge to put it all in perspective (to think outside the box, as another poster put it).
- Certifications are worthless in my book. They get dated rather quickly, so you have to keep getting re-certified every year, and it winds-up being a rat-race. Besides, it's been my experience that if a guy has a certification, it's no indication of what he really knows or what he can really do. It's only an indication of how well he can regurgitate something on a standardized test. Kind of like a handful of the guys I've interviewed recently.
- College is fun.
go to college. You're trying to convince people that you're so smart and so good you don't need the same degree that every other white-collar worker does and you can't spell? Come on.
-_Quinn
Reality Maintenance Group, Silver City Construction Co., Ltd.
Wow - you made me realize something I hadn't thought of - I am now 28 and find myself going BACK to school after 5 years in the job market. I dropped out of school to start working in IT and became a Network Admin. However the 5 years got me "fat" on the money and I really find myself having trouble going back to the "school lifestyle" It is a tough transition. I am making it work.
Another thing you hit is that interpersonal skills problem. My office mate had NO college and went into his IT job straight out of high school - he was/is one of the WORST people to deal with. I hated listening to his immature, whiney, ranting. I knew that most of it was due to the fact that he never learned how to deal with other people, which is something that you learn in college.*
RonB
* though I have to wonder about this. Now being in college there is a guy in my CS classes who goes by the nickname BINKY, which alone raises a HUGE white flag. But along with that, he just acts weird. He went shoeless for about 3 weeks as a "statement." And then near the end of this semester he took a hand puppet with him to class. What the...?!?!?!
It is human nature to take shortcuts in thinking.
You know, I had the same opinion when I was a high school senior. So I chose to go to college here in Silicon Valley instead of in my home state of Indiana.
I took a part-time sysadmin job when I was in college, and after a year or so, this blossomed into a full-time opportunity for web development. It was at this point that, after 1 1/2 years of college, I decided to drop out.
You may be asking, "Well, why should I bother with college in the first place?" I can tell you that college is right for most people. It helps those people decide what they really want to do. It gives you the flexibility to learn almost anything (for instance, I've decided that I would like to study more anthropology if I go back...) while still giving you the opportunity to study a field that you are interested in (especially a field that, like anthropology, may not have anything to do with the job you expect to receive.)
For the vast majority of 18-year-olds, especially if you have never lived away from home, college is a great experience. If you have never lived away from home, then there's no question that you will want to go to college for at least a year just to have a safe haven without living on the street as you struggle to find a job. For me, it turned out to be better to drop out, but I could never have made that decision without having that year and a half of college behind me.
Choose the college that you wish to go to wisely. I could have gone to any Indiana school, but I chose not to because of the lack of tech job opportunities. West Lafayette, IN (home of Purdue University) is absolutely saturated with talented technical college students without jobs, because West Lafayette has a dearth of tech companies. OTOH, I went to San Jose State, which doesn't have a great reputation, but is right in the middle of all the tech firms who were hiring when I was on the market while in college. Location is key if you want to get real job experience while in college.
By the way, you might want to consider a different nickname. "Chicks_Hate_Me" might have been cool in high school, but it will get you nowhere in the real world (speaking as a "Chick" myself...:)
Simpli - Your source for San Jose dedicated servers and colocation!
I spent 15 years as a system administrator in industry and academia, and now am a college CS prof, so I think I might have some insight here.
First, never say "I'm not going to college." The most to say is "I'm not going to college right now." That said, the danger is that the more involved you become in the world of work, the less likely you are to go back.
There are a couple of reasons for you to go to college right now. First off, any reasonable institution will give you opportunities to acquire more and better sysadmin skills while going to school. Some of the best folks in industry completed their training in college. Second, it's important to develop non-computing skills up front, such as the ability to write a scholarly paper, the ability to research an intellectual issue, the ability to give a scholarly presentation. Third, employers will have much more respect for someone with a college degree (regardless of subject): it shows that they can voluntarily put together four years of structured work.
For someone like you, I would recommend a hard science major of some kind rather than CS. (I got my undergraduate degree in Physics.) You'll get plenty of opportunities to do CS on the side. That said, you don't really have to commit to a major up front; go to school, and pick after a year or two. Figure out whether you're the kind of person who would be happiest in a small private school or a large state school, and choose accordingly.
If you decide not to attend college right now, make sure your employer understands up front that you are a short-timer who is going back to school soon. Taking community college classes on the side is an excellent way to reinforce this and build up some credit.
The bottom line is that you want to have credentials and options. Sysadmin certificates are not very impressive credentials, and leave you without career options. At this stage in your career, I wouldn't bother. The world values smart guys with general skills much more than guys with just sysadmin skills. Develop a repertoire of abilities while you have the luxury of youth.
I went to college in the mid '80s. Attended for a couple of years. Dropped out, and went to work in a computer store. Knocked around for a few years and tried to learn the trade at various jobs. Ultimately, in '92 I was working for a computer reseller when one of my clients (I was an Apple SE working on publishing) poached me away to become their sysadmin.
/. regular and a good friend of mine), and was able to get an opportunity to move into more of a management role with a larger company. That's where I'm at today.
Over the next six years, I learned a lot about administration, taught myself a lot, and ran a pretty good shop. We went from about 20 employees at the time to around 100 all together, and I had to scale up accordingly. Eventually, I burned out of that particular life (I'm still on excellent terms with them and my successor is also a
The reason I say "YMMV", is because I got a lot of lucky breaks in addition to working my tail off to get to a point where my lack of a degree isn't that important anymore. That said, I'd still like to get one someday, just for the sake of having done so. There are going to be points and moments in your career where that piece of paper will open doors that might otherwise stay shut. I've gotten to a pretty good place myself, but I might have been able to avoid some of the scrambling around otherwise. I'll never know for sure.
The type of degree isn't as important to a sysadmin, I think, so long as you take some classes in your field (or possibly a Comp Sci minor). In fact, I like liberal arts majors as useful to the sysadmin. You don't learn too much specific to your field, but that's what training and certs are for. What you do learn is how to study, how to think critically, and how to deal with other people. Though I didn't graduate, those are the things I remember most fondly about my college career. i definitely think it's worthwhile. As some of the other posters here have siad, you can always hold down a job while you work your way through school as well. And what you learn in college may even make you change your mind about your choice of careers. You won't know for sure unless you go, however.
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
Attend part time, get experience part time. Several friends have done this. It may take a bit longer but then you will have both a freshly minted degree and a few years real world experience. If your are totally gung ho do one full time and the other part time. If I were hiring and had a choice between three candidates, other things being equal, one with a degree, one with a few years experience and one with a degree AND a few years as sysop or asst. sysop, the advantage would lie with the last person.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
This sounds like college would be a great solution for GeneralEmergency here. He sounds like someone who didn't get a degree when he should have and is now bitter about it since those with degrees are now doing his old job?
Also, note the general lack of intelligent dialect. Swearing, distain, and most notabily, bad advice. These are attributes one is likely to shed in college as it becomes importiant to learn how to communicate with others.
Apologies to Scott Adams.
Let's see here, my real name is Dogbert K. Hosehead, Jr. and I have to hire somebody to be my [your favorite toy here] administrator.
I have a choice between Dilbette A. who has a degree and, Dilbert B. who has a high school education, plays a mean game of Quake and pretty much ran the schools network for 3 of his 4 high school years.
1) D.A. gets chosen because, although she has less hands on experience she DOES have lots of thought process training that will come in real handy when something wierd goes down and it's not covered in any of the tech guides.
2) D.A. gets chosen because it's well known that this person is going to be assigned to a bunch of special working groups and we know that college professors just love to make group assignments with this in mind. D.A. has experience either getting Butthead Bill to carry his weight or distributing Bill's responsibilities so the project still comes in on schedule.
3) Even if D.A.'s degree is not a complete match for the skills I require I know that the college experience has given her certain time management skills that D.B. probably doesn't have yet.
The short answer: If at all possible, go to college. Find relevant work on the side to help pay your way through school, co-op, or anything at all that will help to beef up your resume but, even a Music Education degree can get you hired as a systems operator ahead of lots of computer experience but no degree. (Actually been there and done that.)
My office has been taken over by iPod people.
1) You may think you want to be a sysadmin. You may be certain of it, even - NOW. Part of what college does is expose you to other things, other ideas, other people. You might be happier doing something else with your life. I don't just mean in your caree r or day job, I mean everything you do.
2) As it is now, it's a tight job market in the tech industry. I'd recommend going to college instead of trying to compete with people with more experience, many of whom have degrees. Several people I know have had such difficult times finding jobs that they've gone back to college to finish the degrees they might have started but never completed.
3) Especially when times are tight, companies will use a degree as a screening criterion to thin the pile of resumes they get for a job. Some positions, especially many in government or academia (surprise) require a degree. Part of HR's justification for this is that starting *and finishing* college shows a quality of responsibility that companies like: they don't like (in general, with anecdotal variations everywhere) people who jobhop as much as they like people who are willing to complete a project. I know for a fact that two positions I've had in the past were offered to me precisely because I had a degree (I know be cause in those two cases my hiring manager told me so, later, after I accepted the jobs. Might have mattered in other positions I've had, but those two were directly told to me by the person making the hiring decision).
4) If you care about money, the salary in almost every single field is significantly lower without a degree, at almost every level of experience, and really flattens out fast after a couple of years.
I'm not saying don't work part-time as a sysadmin, that's an excellent way to learn that area of knowledge. But go to college. Ât
I think your teachers might also want you to get an education.
If you can go to college, go to college. Get a job working at a lab or with the CSci department. Major in what you find interesting.
The sysadmin sitting a few chairs away from me has a B.S. in Applied Mathematics. I just tried to get more information out of him and he told me "none of your f***in business." Now that's job security!
My Karma was at 49, then they switched to words. All that work for nothing!
What to major in: whatever you want. Don't waste your time in an MIS department. Major in one of the liberal arts, since those are more likely to teach you how to think and how to write. (And for the record, mathematics and physics are both liberal arts, as are music, history, English, etc.)
Having a college degree is important enough that even Steven Spielburg has put in nights and weekends just to complete his degree this spring, 33 years after dropping out.
AnhZone
Patriotism is the conviction that your country is superior to all others because you were born there. (GBS)
... I got in and out of a 2 year SysAdmin program(AAS degree). WELL worth the time. I'm glad I went, and now I wish I would have done the full 4 years.
I found that sys admin is not as much about knowing computers, but about managment of computers, resources, etc. Things I never would've picked up outside of school, on-the-job-on-the-fly(like most of my technical knowlege) type learning. The college forced me into quite a few 'unrelated' classes but for dealing with the managment end of sysadmin, the experience is priceless.
Also, for me I wish i would've stayed for another 2 years to get a BS degree. Becuase now that I have a full time job, its almost IMPOSSIBLE to go back to school. Time is a finite resource. I had the time before, but with a full time job, heh, good luck. And I'm kinda outa luck in the advancment department, the fields I want to get into all REQUIRE a 4 year degree, so I'm SOL right now.
Go to school, get it over with. Do it while you have the time and the drive.
Reason numero uno to go to college. Sex. I had more sex in college than ever and I sometimes think about going back just for that. You'll meat shedloads of people and have a lot of fun, but for the money, the sex is the biggest reason to go.
Whoa whoa whoa...
There's WAAAAY more to life than just being a sysadmin-- the experiences you have in college-- stuff that has nothing to do with computers-- will likely give you more perspective on the world and make you a more savvy, broad-minded, aware, and generally knowlegable person.
In college, expect to be exposed to a variety of life perspectives-- scientists, poets, philosophers, athletes, artists, engineers, religious nuts, political types, the ultra-rich, the unbelievably poor, etc. from everywhere in the world. You will undoubtedly get involved in all kinds of extracurricular campus goings-on and discover whole new scenes that will put merely honing your sysadmin skills in context.
Be sure to take classes in areas that you don't really know anything about- I found this an excellent way to stretch your brain. It's worth it though.
College, IMO, is about broading your horizons, growing in different directions, exploring, having fun, fucking up, and learning about yourself.
And yeah, as a nice side bonus, higher ed will make you way more marketable in whatever you do. But to me anyway, that's not the point. I wouldn't have known that when I started, but that's what I found to be the case.
Plus they have hot coeds there.
W
-------------------
This is my SIG. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
I'm only a year older than "Chicks_Hate_Me", my problem was that I wasn't really ready for college, I was lucky enough to get a job at a really awesome company, getting a job first really helped me to decide what exact area in the computer field I want to persue. I really want to go to college now, because I have a reason. The other benifit is I'll have quite a bit saved up for when I start college.
Summary:
College for sure, but working first will help give you a reason for college and some money.
Everyone goes to College mainly because everyone else does. The problem now is that a college education is a bit like what a high-school diploma used to be: a ubiquitos minimum requirement for getting your first job.
That being said, many people will say that if you don't get a diploma, then you're missing this basic qualification and you will suffer. I tend to disagree, especially when it comes to IT operations work.
If you can get a job now, AND if the job you get will give you good experience, then you can skip college. The experience you gain will put you ahead of college graduates your age when they get out of school. On the other hand, if you get a job that provides minimal experience and stimulation, you might as well have been in College for those years getting a degree and having a good time.
Theres obviously the cost of College to factor in: don't think you won't feel better than your friends in a few years when they have big student loans to repay and you're sitting on a downpayment for your first house.
The problem with college is that everyone has it, so while you may stand out for not having it, you may also stand out because of what you did instead.
If you can get a good job that will give you loads of experience, go for it. Then do as many certifications on the side as you can. I think you'll find its more rewarding than getting a degree that you'd like to be proud of, but which won't open very many doors.
Which is exactly why I recomend that you go to College.
The first year or two is about teaching you communication and reasoning. That's what a Liberal Arts education is all about. You can't communicate effectively with someone else unless you understand their perspective, and College general ed is all about forcing you to understand many different ways of looking at the world through exposure to art, social sciences, history, etc. It may seem pointless at the time, but the added perspective of just being exposed to those things become invaluable in the real world.
Upper division courses are where those communication and reasoning skills are really applied to your chosen field. This is where you will learn the concepts behind the methods that you will actually use in the field. You don't need to know the concepts to use the methods, but it does give you an edge by making your knowledge more portable (understanding the concept of ACLs, for example, makes it much easier to understand and use the various implementations on different OSs).
Having a degree also makes your resume more visible. The main reason, in my experience, is that having one demonstrates a willingness to persevere, even through tasks that seem pointless. People with degrees tend to be less volitile, more able to see projects through to completion, and generally have a bigger "toolbox" from which to pull solutions to complex problems.
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
A College degree on the resume will increase your odds of having your resume looked at when applying at many major corps. But you will waste 4+ years that you could've spent in the practical world learning real skills. If you think you need help learning non-technical things (writing, history, psychology) to get by in life, then a bachelor's degree is for you. I ended up at a private high school that had pretty decent education, and between that and just reading on my own, I felt the social aspects of college were a pretty bad bargain for me.
On the technical side, if you can code in a few languages, and you understand hardware (not just plugging in a new IDE HDD, but hardware as in breaking out a soldering iron), you're already much further along that most CS grad students. If you can add to that a solid understanding of systems-related stuff (like storage management, high availability, clustering, etc...), you're golden on skills. Don't forget that a lot of that stuff, you can pretty much BS about it on the resume and learn-as-you-go if you're that kind of person, and still perform better than most candidates in the field.
Anyways, that pretty much sums up how I got by. My "peers" now have a BS in CS and 4 years or so on the job, they're doing junior admin work, and they rely on vendors to tell them how the technology works. They really aren't worth of the cubicle space they take up. I have a 9 year resume, the latter half of which involves doing myriad deep things on really impressive hardware and software environments. I make double what most of them make, and I usually get to pull off the alpha-geek thing of wearing jeans and t-shirts to my downtown office, coming in late, etc... with taking any hassle.
As a matter of fact, when I've had to interview new recruits to work under/with me in my jobs recently, I generally toss out recent CS degree holders in favor of the self-taught type. I've learned that cookie-cutter CS people generally don't get the big picture, and don't have the nitty-gritty technical skills to boot. All they have is a rough theoretical understanding of the middle-ground as it applies to outdated systems, languages, and technologies.
In place of looking for and asking about College on resumes, I look for things like:
(1) Do you use Linux or *BSD at home?
(2) How big is your collection of O'Reilly books? (I really ask this in interviews, and it's a great indicator for self-learners)
Anyways, enough rambling. If you're smart and you have a natural feel for these kinds of things, jump into the industry, don't waste your time. You'll have trouble landing some jobs, but those are generally at companies you would end up being unsatisified with anyways.
11*43+456^2
Face it, you are going to be working for the rest of your life. Why start sooner.
College is not a vocational school, although the US News rankings and guidance counselors would have you think otherwise. College is great for a number of reasons:
1. You can explore a wide variety of subjects or even a variety of topics within a disipline (like AI vs. Databases)
2. You have an opportunity to party and get laid all you want.
3. You get a chance to finish growing up without your parents in your face. Making 40 or 50k out of highschool is nice, but you won't be as free as you think. That lease you have to keep paying on plus groceries plus car payment is a real pain in the ass.
Plus, any intelligent being gets sick of being a Sysadmin after awhile. What seems really cool today may not be so cool when you do it for 40-50 hours a week, every week.
Go to college, take some classes and get a degree. If the degree is in computer science, great, if it is in Philosophy or Rennaisance Literature, that's cool too. Just broaden your horizons and enjoy yourself.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Were those years a waste? No. I learned a lot of valuable things. I took a lot of classes in undergraduate school on a variety of topics from socratic dialogue to Vietnam-era literature. It broadened my horizons and gave me the time to sort out what I really wanted to do. It also developed my thinking skills, which makes me more capable at turning my hand to a variety of things and better able to think my way around a problem.
So, I would say, unless funds are an issue (I went to college on scholarships and a little parent-ership and have no student loans to pay off - this is the best way: most of my friends are still paying off those loans), take the time to explore. Don't take all computer classes, take some botany, or acting, or geology, or even an introductory astronomy class (but be aware that math is involved). Take Shakespeare or art appreciation or greek literature. The ability to think is what college os for. I don't think anyone outside of medical or law school actually does what they go to college for. I know three people who hold psychology degrees: one's an accountant, one's a graphic designer and one is between careers (was in computers, is looking for something more intellectual, whatever that means). Also, remember that education is what you make of it. My state college was fine for what I wanted: a broad education in a variety of subjects. Most community colleges can fulfill this need. Don't spend more than you have (see above).
Real world experience is great. But 3 or 4 years of learning new ways to interpret that experience is invaluable.
Just remember Hans Gruber in Die Hard: "Benefits of a classical education."
Do not touch -Willie
While I do not necessarily recommend this for anyone else, this is what happened to me and what I know.
I started off going to college, but because my parents couldn't afford much of a school, I was stuck going to a small liberal arts school in southern NJ majoring in Computer Science. By the middle of the second semester, I was bored and decided to drop out.
About 1 year later (after I had time to rethink my life), I went and got the "hottest" certification at the time which was an MCSE. Although I already knew I was a UNIX guy and preferred to work on UNIX systems, the MCSE was a stepping stone to better things. And honestly, this path worked for me. A few months after finishing my final exam followed by some teaching in the same disciplines, I found a job working as a System Administrator. The salary was about $43,000/yr. For someone with no experience and no college degree, I thought this was a great start. Keep in mind, I was also offered a supervisor's job which I personally did not feel I was ready for. Also, of all the people who applied for the same job (there were 20+ positions available) and got it, my salary was the second highest while most of the other individuals did have previous experience and did have a college degree.
College degree didn't seem to be an issue.
After about a year I went on looking for other jobs. While I think about 2 of the 40 some opprotunities gave me a "ick" look when I said I didn't have a college degree, I still found the lack of college degree to be a moot point. It was how I sold myself. I received several offers from various companies, but I held out and found a job doing something I've always wanted to do which was internet security.
So, I find a job about 18 months after I started my first job doing Internet security work. My current salary is +50% of what I started at on my first job, and I've been here 1 year (so a total of about 30 months in the industry). While I know some may say I don't make all that much money, I'm pretty happy, and I could leave making +$20-25k (already been offered), but besides the point...
I think you need to consider several things.
1) Can you afford college? do your parents have the financial resources without putting a 3rd mortgage on the house to get you through 4 (maybe 5) years? If so, go to college.
2) How well can you sell yourself? Are you really as good as you think you are? Can you show what you know while standing in front of a whiteboard? If you're in doubt, go to college.
3) How far do you plan to go in life? Do you want to sysadmin all your life, or do you want to be a manager? Director? VP? If you do, I suggest college.
4) Do you work well with others? If not, the personal skills you develope in college could help.
Anyway, just a few things to think about. I don't think the answer is the same for everybody.
...because it'll be the best years of your life. College is for slacking off, getting drunk and scoring hot chicks, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Guys who work hard at college will make more than you, and guys who skip it might as well (without loans to pay off) but they cannot buy the memories you will have.
We have achieved a society that is rich enough to allow a fair proportion of our young people to slack off and enjoy college. That's a precious gift. Don't waste the opportunity, and don't ever let anyone tell you that you should work hard now and reap the rewards later, because you'll never be as well equipped, physically and emotionally, to live life to the utmost as you are right now.
So go out there and slack like you've never slacked before. Just remember to panic cram your way through the exams, but don't get all confused by thinking you're actually learning anything that you'll use in your working life. ;-)
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
Get the career while you're going to college. I was lucky and got some really good training in the military on Unix systems. Then while I was still in the military got a job at a NASA site as a Jr. Sysadmin. I took quite a few college classes while I was in the military but never came close to a degree. I mainly took technical classes, programming and networking mostly. I think that having a degree will help you get interviews, but as far as what you're learning in college, you're lucky if it really helps much toward practical SysAdmin skills. I haven't seen many Sysadmin classes that were worth a damn at college. They're really junior for the most part. Vendor training is closer to the mark, but always very specific to their product. Where else are you going to learn about volume management and setting up a backup server though?
One good avenue is to go to college and then get a paid internship at a company or your local NASA research center (if you have one) and learn the real skills at the internship while you're learning the theoretical stuff at college. Even if you don't get a degree, it's always helpful to take at least the minimum college computer classes: (Assuming Unix SysAdmin)
TCP/IP
Bourne Shell programming
Perl (lots of Perl if you can find it)
Basic Networking
Unix
Taking a few classes in a programming language would probably help, and make you more versatile to an employer. Mostly I just took programming classes for fun. Compiler and Internals classes probably won't be as useful as they seem on paper.
Certifications are great resume fodder, but that's about it. Get the CCNA, and a Solaris or Linux cert if you want to pad your resume. Also join USENIX/SAGE for resume buzzwords if nothing else.
In the end, the one thing that helped me most was working with a really good senior Sysadmin when I was a junior. He'd teach me anything I wanted to know and was really patient with me. I learned more in a month working with him than in any class I ever attended in college.
Best of luck breaking into the field.
Keine eier
My history:
BA Chemistry.
MS Chemistry.
Currently I am an IS Manager. Though college classes didn't directly teach me my trade, they did teach me much else (organization, project planning, etc.), and while there I worked part time as at the helpdesk. That experience was great.
Some people will say college is worthless, but it really depends on where you go. College is probably the best example of getting out what you put in.
Long term not having a degree can hurt your ability to advance in system administration, it will be harder to get into managerial positions.
That said, I have also made 2 job offers to people without degrees, one of whom I offered a salary high than mine, he was that good.
Hope this helps.
Ok, I give up, why you?
I say take a more targeted approach for now and go to college when, and only when, you become bored, burnt out, disenchanted, frustrated and really sick and tired of all those god damned "college boys" who make more than you but REALLY just don't know DICK!
I'm still not sure if this guy is being a troll, sarcastic, or serious. Either way, he makes a great point for getting your degree.
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
Go to college and get a student job with the campus computing services department. You'll probably start off as a lowly cable-pulling punk, but give it time and make sure they know what you want to get out of working for them. Eventually you will get the opportunity to do sysadmin work and there will be at least one or two guru-sysadmins from which you can learn a ton if you cultivate the relationship. It will also give you the freedom to explore that is rarely available at a "real" job where deadlines and such are much more restricting.
Also, it will help to mitigate costs.
While you are in college, make the most of it and take the broadest range of courses that you can. Many nerds go to college and ignore the humanities and even a lot of the scienes because they think "why will I ever need that?" Well, you never know what you are going to need and the more you know, the more able you will be in this life and the large the pool of potential employers will be too.
College is for learning three things - 1) Learning how to learn, 2) Learning vocational stuff, 3) Learning about the world in general. Make sure you participate in all three kinds of learning.
If you don't go to college, it is a lot easier to end up as a "one trick pony" and right now, people are averaging about 6 different careers (not just employers, actual different careers) in a lifetime and the rate of change is only accelerating. Without the exposure and cachet that a college degree brings you, it will be much harder (not impossible, just harder) to change yourself when the circumstances call for changing.
Meanwhile, don't believe those people who tell you college is expensive. Go to a public school in state, which should qualify you for much reduced tuition. If it is in your home town, just keep living with the parents while you do it. If it is out of town then as soon as you are able, move off-campus and get a roommate or three. If you haven't already, you should be applying for every kind of scholarship and student loan you can find, especially local, community based ones where the competition is often a lot less.
Oh, and finally - the best sysadmins are programmers. There are roughly three kinds of sysadmins - non-programmers who have to struggle to even write a script and even perl is mostly out of their reach - application programmers who have converted and are easily capable of whipping up a script or bit of C-code to fix some problem that would take the first category days or weeks to do - and last there are kernel programmers who have converted and not only can they write code, they also understand what is going on "underneath the hood" and thus are excellent at diagnosing OS problems and fixing things that might otherwise go unfixed and just suffered with in the hands of the first two classes of sysadmins, plus they have a better grip on "the way things ought to work" because they understand the mechanisms involved.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
"Get a couple of Cisco certifications, get a network certification of some sort, and get some experience at any pay. Two years before your friends are done school you'll be changing to your second IT job...."
;)
...and always be working for someone else. Not to mention two years later your college friends will end up being your boss.
You can get those certs while in school you know.
College gets you friends, contacts, laid, and is a blast. You learn things other than how to set up a routing table. I learned to speak German there. Do I need this - no - but I am glad I learned it!
So what if you are behind the curve for 2 or three years - after that you race far ahead!
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
I couldn't mod, so I thought I'd comment on this post, number by number
1) This is the single biggest problem both for people who want to and don't want to go to college... they think they know what they want to do with the rest of their lives. When I left high school, I was *sure* I was going to work in computers... after one semester, I changed from a CS major to an English major. And I ended up working with computers after all. I finish my degree in December, but it does nothing practical for my profession, unless I get into technical writing.
2) The other nice thing about college is that if you *do* have some experience, getting an on-campus tech job can be a breeze. That's how I got started.
3) One of the reasons I'm staying in school is that for most of the higher-level positions at the Uni, they want a degree... in anything. My advice has always been (at least for the tech field) that you should be *educated* in whatever field interests you, but be trained in the fields needed for the job market. This isn't nursing or architecture... you really can "learn as you go" with IT.
4) Indeed, working as a sysadmin (or low-level NOC employee) at your university is great, because they'll even pay for part of your education.
Really, you should never go to college with the explicit purpose of "this will help my future career"... you'll get bored with it fast. It happened to a lot of people I know, including myself. There's nothing that says you can't work and go to school at the same time... especially if you work at the University, where they're much more likely to be flexible with your schedule.
A final note. I'm a strong opponent of certifications mainly because they take all of the soul out of education. Education is not just about acquiring facts: it's about learning how to think, how to process ideas, and how to interact with other people. The ancient greeks believe that education was the greatest enrichment life could have, and I tend to agree with them. Always remember that any old idiot can get a certification, but it takes a degree of steadfastness and purpose to get a college degree, and employers know that.
Some advice from a person who has been programming professionally since high-school: Go to college. I can't tell you how important it is. If you are anything like me, you will want to wait as long as possible before you join the corporate world. If you thought high-school was bad... just wait for manditory relaxed fridays and company barbecues. On the other hand, college is great. It's nothing at all like high-school (unless you go to a crappy school like nyu...). The professors all have PhDs, you only have to go to a class if you want to, and when you do, the professors treat you with respect (compare all three to your high-school experience...). Looking back, I barely learned anything in all my years of public school compared to what I've learned in college. Plus, having computer skills can get you into some really cool research.
If I can chalk this down to one simple take-home message: Go to college. It is worth it for at least the experience, let alone the amount you will learn (if you apply yourself).
If you have a great skillset now and have connections, you can bypass college. Collegiate CS is not all it's cracked up to be -- I went to school for a different subject and am considered an equal with the BS students, at this office anyway. However, it is much easier to get a high base salary or pick up a job with another company if you have that degree, even an associates degree, behind you. It takes a lot of "equivalent experience" (say, five years or so) to equal that in the mind of HR folks.
If you ever intend to be an architect/manager/director/CIO, college will definitely be a boost and may be your only choice, unless you can get in good with a hot startup.
As for your career path...IT and programming are so vastly different in both mood and expectation that I wish they wouldn't get lumped together -- even though their daily tasks may be similar. Programmers answer to managers, but IT folks most often answer to everybody. Programmers are expected to do more problem solving, wheras IT folks are expected to do more solution implementation. And in my opinion, the path that's best for you depends on your outlook on life. Are you a patient optimist with a fervor for new technology? You should program. Are you a solution minded pessimist with a get-it-done attitude? You should be IT. Your outlook is the key to success in computing.
Hey freaks: now you're ju
1)you'll gain more practical skills then a cert. course
2)you'll learn better theoretical skills
3)job market sucks. that anybody with a heartbeat era of computers is over.
4)you'll have an opportunity to learn to be social on a adult level. this is incredible valuable for system admins, who will ocme in contact with pweople at every level of managment
5)you'll get the opportunity to be with people who have the same views as you.
6)you'll get the opportunity to be with people who have different views then you, and you'll have to learn to rationally counter a discussion, and learn how to take input and to form your own ideas.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
a billion other people have already posted so you probably wont read this but
.. i know i have, i'm looking at degrees in other things entirely non-tech related becuase they are more stable..
I was you 4 years ago
and I chose the non-college path
and let me tell you I wish I hadn't
long story and several certs later, I have MCSE/A+/Network+ and CompUSA won't even call me back for a shitty tech job fixing their piece of shit compaqs.. i'm going for a ccna shortly which might help, but in teh areas i've lived in (indy/cinci) the IT recession has hit hard.. i'm 22 and a 19 web dev friend of mine pulling $50k/yr w/o a degree (mcse/a+/net+) got fired several times becuase of budget cutting (and the fact he was the youngest)
i have been in and out of college several times and have a few hours, if i had the money i would go back immediately, a degree in *anything* is better than none at all
and you might want to reconsider IT as it continues to get worse ("outsourcing" all our jobs to "cut costs")
having a huge salary is great, but only if you're around long enough to collect it
- Cunnilingus Future success is often dependent on the success and happiness of one's personal life. If you can't do this right, don't expect a fulfilling personal life.
-
Chemistry Most people would call this "learning how to drink", but I think that's just a subset. Its important to learn what are the right combinations and quantities of booze and drugs to take, and more imporantly, how to function before, during, and after consumption. You won't accomplish much in life if you can't work with a hangover or don't know what or how much to take or not take to prevent one.
These are two of the biggest lessons I learned in college. I learned a bunch of other crap about politics, math, history and science, but its kind of hazy and not very applicable most of the time to my full-time job managing a computer network.I've been there, didn't quite know what I wanted to do except something with computers when I went into college. The school I attended has no courses geared towards systems administration, and left after completing all but 4 of the comp sci courses and *none* of my "Gen Ed" requirements, which I've always felt were a waste of my time... a computer isn't going to "feel" one way or another, why do I need psychology? I know, "more rounded person", yadda yadda yadda.
Anyway, while there I started working for the networking folks at the university, and after one semester of working there realized that this was what I wanted to do. I venture to say I learned more from the 4 semesters of work than the 6 semesters of classes, quite possibly because I retain things better if I'm actually interested in the content. Left there when I left school (funny thing, student workers have to be students to work there) and picked up a job in another university as their full-time sysadmin.
Do I recommend you skip school? Not really, because not everyone's like me, you might enjoy the classes and some of the BS they put you through for a BS, and you might even discover that you prefer being an ADA junkie than a cable jockey. But quickly find out about the IT department there, and how to get a job. Most places have a work-study program, take advantage of it. Even if you have to start at the helpdesk, it's a foot in the door, get to know the Gurus and see where you can help out. Don't be afraid that places are going to turn their nose up at you if you don't have a degree; some will, yes, but do you want to work for that kind of shortsighted company?
As a somewhat related note, if you love to learn about the sysadminning aspects, and want to get a job where you can be a BOFH as well as keep up with new technology and expanding demands, look for jobs at university IT departments (either campus-wide or departmental, like I am). They're usually the type that not only likes it when their computers work, but like to see their admins researching new ideas and playing with new technology which might benefit them at the same time. Quite a few admins I know that work in the private sector are almost shunned for wanting to learn something new that falls just outside their specified job description ("You work the mail servers, don't worry about SANs.")
YMMV. "But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. --Dennis Miller"
Three dits, four dits, two dits, dah!
Radio, radio, rah rah rah!
I disagree with all of these College loving guys. Straight out of high school in 1998 I started in the tech industry. Hell, I very nearly didn't finish high school because I was working online when I should have been at school.
Through 3.. yes 3 dot com failures I still have my job, the pay is good and I've not looked back and wished I had done something else with my time. Some day I may consider going to school if I have a complete career change in mind.
I know lots of people who are out on their duffs and have degrees. In today's world, it's all about who you know, not what you know. I'd say networking and making business contacts is as valuable or even more valuable than that degree.
"current conditions notwithstanding" my ass. Current conditions /always/ matter - and setting aside the whole paper vs. experience thing, right nwo the best thing to do is go to college.
It doesn't really matter what you take, just get some fancy papers. When there's a market upswing, *then* you can decide whether to stay in college or to start a career because you'll have that option then. Right now your options are college or a crappy start to a career with little job security.
I'm not saying that there aren't good jobs otu there (I have one myself), but with neither experience nor papers and facing the competition of all those hungry experienced and paper'd unemployed SysAdmins, you'll fare much better 9and eat more regularily) in college.
"The purpose of argument is to change the nature of truth." -- Bene Gesserit Precept
I'm going to talk about DB certifications, because that interests me the most.
Right now, basic IBM DB2 certification is free of charge. The program isn't very well-organized (compared to Oracle OCP), but you can't argue with the cost. It will also get you some basic SQL skills.
The free qualifier is only available in June, August, October, and November of this year. Information on it is available at http://certify.torolab.ibm.com.
Perhaps more important than this, however, is that both IBM and Oracle have programs for integrating their certs into college courses (Oracle exams are even half-price for students, IIR). The URLs for their academic sites are:
http://oai.oracle.com/
http:///www-3.ibm.com/software/data/highered/
Other good certification websites:
http://suned.sun.com
http://www.jcert.org
http://www.cisco.com
What I recommend to you is that you demand that your institution of higher learning participate in vendor partnership programs such as these. Such partnerships a)indicate that the institution is interested in imparting practical and industry-relevant experience to you, and b)ensure you of a higher starting salary than those unfortunate individuals attending more institutions with less focus on your needs (and more on the ease of their tenured professors).
I might especially recommend JCert. If your college teaches Java, they ought not to be afraid to have graduates from their programs independently certified. Any hesitation on this point belies a lack of faith in the quality of their own instruction.
This sort of thing is new ground for most schools, and I think if your school is willing to at least let you work these certs as independent study, then they should still be considered. However, I've seen a few cases now where administration stonewalls (University of Iowa), even though they are a member of the program. You might think about making your entire tech-elective track nothing but certs.
So go for the campus tour, nod and smile at their spiel, then negotiate hard and in writing that these certs will be accepted as tech electives.
And don't be afraid to remind them that the ROI for certs is far greater than for college tuition in the short and even medium term.
I have a BA in History(!) and my A+ and Server+, with my MCSA in the works, and plans for Network+, Linux+ and RHCE down the road. Any degree on your resume will usually give you a notch or you above candidates without, more reliably than a certification. A degree says that not only do you know your stuff, but you can focus on a project for an extended period and have a certain level of competency at basic work-type skills, i.e. the English language, something many people lack, or business, or critical thinking. Certifications give a picture of you as an IT professional, but a degree says something about your life skills and what type of an employee you can become.
You are not the customer.
If he actually thinks hes going to make a career thats going to last more than 10 years as a system admin, hes going to be wrong, VERY wrong.
Eventually servers will maintain themselves, lets not forget the system admin market is not in demand and hes not going to get paid a decent wage for much longer.
What he should do is go to college, get a Good 4 year degree, maybe work as a system admin via intership, Then when he graduates from college he can continue on as a Sys Admin.
He needs to get his degree so he can adapt to the times, when the time comes, Hes going to have to get a new job, wheres he going to go 11 years from now? or 20? Does he really want to go to college at age 30? By then he'll be far behind.
Look, you have to build your nest egg as soon as possible, that is
A. If you want to retire ever.
B. If you want to have kids.
C. If you want a house, car, or anything.
He needs a degree to have a stable career, he can get a job with just a diploma, they'll hire him as a sys admin, it will be his job, but when they dont need him anymore, hes gone, jobless.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Get the degree. You don't neccessarily have to have it but the HR people like it and it will keep people (like you parents) from bitching at you all the time. Believe me, I'm there right now. I'm a netadmin with certs but an incomplete degree. You also don't want to miss the college experience. It's worth it. I recommend getting an engineering degree. A EE can go anywhere and do almost any technical job. A CS changes from day to day. While your in college, you can probably get student sysadmin work with the college IT group. That's a nice stepping stone. Good luck.
If you can afford it, go. Get a degree in brewing beer, basket weaving, computer sciance, poetry! It does not matter that much. Of couse the ComSci comes in handy in your first few years out trying to land a job in the computer field.
The long and the short of it is, if you do not have a degree (in whatever) you will close off many many doors of opportunity!
~Sean
And here is what I did.
I joined the military for the smallest amount of time that I could (2 years 19 Weeks), although that may not be in your options. Because of that, (I did non-computer related things in the military) I gained people skills, leadership, and all of the other things the military teaches you. I also got a six pack stomach, and a nice chest, and ladies dig that. I work now as a sysadmin, and go to school part time. Make good money (35k), get paid even more to go to school through the GI Bill (around 3k per semester) And I am only 22!
If you live in Illinois, Florida, or Texas, I believe, You get to go to a public school free, but you still reap the GI Bill Benifits.
I did simple math before I joined. 2 years making dirt pay,but when you add in what you will recieve from schooling, it makes good sense
My easy Math
where I could find the time to hone my system skills on my own (I did combat related jobs in the Army) and I did some side consulting work while I was in. You can even take CLEP tests for Free as well as other major tests (retake the ACT, SAT, ASE)
Blah Blah Blah.
Go do your post-secondary education.
First reason: There will never be a better time for it, and going back to school usually only gets harder as you get older.
Second reason: Post-secondary education will also give you the theoretical grounding behind your chosen field(s) of endeavour, which you will find extremely useful once you get out into the Real World[TM] and start doing work. After all, if you know your stuff, picking up tool skills is trivial. Case in point: I am a technical writer. Since I started working, I've used all that abstract stuff I learned in university in practical ways, like through using software I learned on the job.
Third reason: When most employers (mine included) want a minimum of a 3 year degree for data entry jobs (that is to say, scutwork), suddenly that piece of paper can be your best friend.
Fourth reason: Universities and colleges provide excellent opportunities to not only socialize, but to network, pick people's brains, and get into mentoring relationships, co-op programmes, and other helpful Good Things[TM]. Post-secondary education provides a rare combination of opportunities to advance yourself that you just can't get in the workplace, but you have to be smart enough to know where to look and what to do when you find them.
Fifth reason: Work experience! I got a whole year's worth of work experience while doing my one year Master's degree, and my school has co-op programmes in practically everything. There are also a lot of student-oriented part-time jobs around, as well as work-study programmes and the like.
(Shameless plug: Incidentally, if you're concerned about finances, and who isn't, you may want to consider UWaterloo, if you don't mind moving away for awhile. Their CS programme is very good, the tuition is cheap -- especially if you're paying in US$ -- and they offer lots of co-op, bursaries, and other student financial support, as well as a great learning environment.)
Interrobang, BA, MA, future PhD
I'm not a geek, I'm just a clever script.
There are a million reasons you should go to college even if you think you shouldn't, but other posters have described most of them already. One I haven't seen so far is this: At your age, you're not going to get any respect in the workplace. I'm not saying you don't deserve it, it's just a fact of life. People don't take you seriously if you are (or seem to be) under 20-25 years old. Go to college, have some fun, and spare yourself four thankless years slaving away when you could have been learning and having a good time. As a bonus, at the end you'll have a degree that will increase your options if you ever decide to change careers.
You're way more likely to get laid in college too.
Is it a symptom of something that this story has more comments than the SW review? Or is it just that some people didn't have the chance to see it yet, and prefer not to read a review of it before?
Let's suppose you don't go to college, and you spend all your time getting certifications and real-world experience to be a System Administrator. Now suppose, a year into your first 'real' job, you realize that you hate it and want to do somthing else. Unless you want to mow lawns, tele-market, or flip burgers, you are SCREWED!
With a college degreee you have a MUCH better chance getting a job "outside" your field of specialty.
For Example: When I left High School, I thought I wanted to be a chemist, so I went to college and got a BS in Chemistry. I got a cool job as an inorganic chemist right out of college making so-so money. It turned out that STUDYING chemistry was a LOT more fun than doing it every day, so while I was working in the lab, I taught myself VB. I liked VB so much more than chemistry that I quit my job (5 years ago) , and now make 75K a year +benefits as a VB programmer. Had I not gone to college, no employer would have hired me as a programmer. If I had gone to a "vo-tek" school for chemistry, my only option would be to stick to chemistry, and I would be stuck doing a job that I hated.
I've had a number of different jobs in the tech arena now, from systems administration to Web development to writing and editing, as well as doing other things on a freelance basis, like consulting and even illustration. And no, I didn't go to school -- which isn't to say that anybody else shouldn't go.
Whether you go or not, though, my advice is to diversify your skillset as much as possible. And if you want to concentrate on some "top" skills that will get you farthest ahead, then forget about sysadmin and forget about programming. Bone up on your communication skills. Take English classes, take public speaking, take debate. Learn to communicate effectively. On top of that, read the newspaper, listen to NPR, and learn how the world works outside the server room. It'll all help keep you afloat a lot more than knowing Unix ever will, cuz 19-year old Unix gurus are a dime a dozen.
Breakfast served all day!
I, too, dropped out after two years of college to take a computer job. Luckily it wasn't for a dot-com, so I still have it.
After two years of college, I felt like I really hadn't gotten anything out of it. On top of that, I hated college. I can not express enough how unhappy I was there. From things like getting a C in programming class for poor attendance even though I aced every quiz and test, to the asinine rhetoric most college students are filled with, I hated it. Why spend an entire school term learning what you could learn in two weeks on your own with a book?
Example: In an introductory unix class, which, like other classes, I was not allowed to skip or challenge, the professor showed us X, using the fvwm window manager, which he said "Makes it look sort of like Windows."
One enterprising young student in the front row raised his hand, and said "I think you mean fvwm95, which tries to emulate the Windows95 appearance, whereas this is regular fvwm blah blah blah" SHUT THE FUCK UP, THE PROFESSOR KNOWS THE DIFFERENCE.
Engineering classes are full of horrible people like this. Eager to show off how much they know, possibly in the hopes that the professor will be impressed and say "Well, administering the HPUX systems is usually reserved for the grad students, but I think you're ready early..." and then he can brag to all his little pals at the next LUG meeting or something.
The downside is that once you get out into the real world and look for a job, most places are not going to take you that seriously if you don't have a degree. If you get an interview, and the interviewer happens to be a techie himself, and he can quiz you on your knowledge, then you're in luck. But in most cases, it's just some know-nothing with an MBA who has know way of verifying whether or not you actually know your stuff. All he has to go on is whether or not you have a degree.
For some reason, these people have not yet figured out that having a degree doesn't actually mean anything. I've met people with computer science degrees who don't know how to change the IP address on a windows system. I've met people who have four-year programming degrees who can't code with shit in Visual BASIC.
What it all comes down to is: If you know what you want to do and you can learn it on your own and you don't like being surrounded by your asinine peers, college is going to be a nightmare hell ride. But if you want to get a job, your chances are greatly increased by having a degree.
One of the many things I hate. thingsihate.org
Oh, right, I forgot to mention certifications in my initial post. I think of them like specific degrees from technical colleges and community colleges and trade schools: they're great to do exactly that stuff, but they're not a general degree. Certifications also go bad when software does, or faster. Try to find a valid new cert in Netware 3.x or even Windows NT now. I'd only go for a cert in his position now if a) I was skipping college or b) was working part time as a sysad and the employer offered to pay for it. a
A degree will show a potential employer that you're able to learn. Unless you want to be an admin when your 40 (and every other admin you work with is only 20) I suggest you go to college. I guarentee you will want to advance to upper management after a few years of working. Someone will a degree and less experience will probably beat you to it.
You cant "learn" a talent though.
Your talent may be your technical skills and not your people skills.
What you have to do, is focus just enough on the people skills to get hired and in the door, then use your technical skills to stay in once you get in.
Working as a team, thats something you can learn playing online RPGs and sports.
Charisma, Humor, and things like that, it cant be learned, either you are goodat it or you arent.
So the goal is to level it out, put on a good act, make yourself seem like you are good with people, wear a nice suit and tie to your interviews, be polite, and when you get the job, continue to be polite, dress nice, and respect everyone.
Do not argue with anyone whos been there longer than you (its a death wish) and just put in effort to get along with them all on a business level.
Its no diffrent than school, you cant avoid people, you can learn to tolerate them and deal with them in a professional manner so that people dont have a problem with you and use your superior techical skills to make them respect you and want to have you around.
Thats what I basically did, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt, depending on which corporation you work for, as some corporations almost demand you go to social events, others are very laid back and just want you to do your work and get along with everyone.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
This is advice from someone who didn't take it himself. I went to college, but didn't finish. It never stood in my way because I went into software development and I had already been doing it for years before I went into the workforce full-time.
That said, I think a college education can be invaluable, if you're into it. If you're not, don't go and waste your parents' or your own money. If you go to college, go because you want the education, and I'm not just talking about an education in computers. If that's all you really want, then just get your certifications and go into the workforce.
College isn't much of a preparation for a particular job, so much as a general education, which I think everyone needs. One of my favorite quotes from Mark Twain is, "Never let your schooling interefere with your education." My personal translation that I live by, is "Don't limit your education to your schooling." Education is a lifelong process that shouldn't end until you die.
I was always a horrible student in English, but I discovered in the "real" world, being literate, in speaking and in writing is very important. While it may be wrong, many people, myself included, judge a person's intelligence, to a large degree, by their literacy. If people write poorly, I tend to think less of their intelligence. Is that fair? Maybe not, but you'll find it's quite common.
Education in other subjects is just as important, for a variety of reasons, but in general, to be an interesting and interested member of the human race. There's a lot more to life than your job, and an education, formal or otherwise, adds a lot of dimensions to your life.
But that's just my degree-less opinion.
While in University, training to be a Computing Scientist, I took a job with my department as a junior sysadmin. That way, you get experience, you get an education, and you don't have to travel very far to get to work. The added benefit was that I always had a machine to do my work on, even when the labs in the building were full.
> I wan't to be a programmer
This sentence makes the decision for you, I'm afraid. Go to college. And pay more attention in high school English class while you're still there.
1.) What is the Opportunity Cost/Monitary Cost of a College Degree?
:)). so, naturally I felt like I could easly enter the job market. But something just erked me about not having some sort of higher education to give myself the chance for advancement in case I wanted to change fields later in life.
Maybe a couple of years of average wages - assuming you attend a 2 year tech school (few will pay the big bucks to a kid with a high school degree, regardless of knowledge or experience). Plus, the cost of school itself.
2.) Benefits of a degree
- You have something to put in the "Education" are of your resume other than a high school degree. It may sound trival & stupid...but it's true.
- The chance to work with top of the line technology (depending on the school) and to be around others who are equally interested in your field (this is where you learn the most)
- You increase your market value
I think the basic question that you have to ask yourself is: "Do I want to be an SA for the rest of my career?".
I was in the same boat coming out of high school (graduated in 1996). I had way more experence in the "computing area" than many adults I knew. In fact in 93-94, I was the only one in my high school with internet access (1200 baud
I'm graduating next week with a Masters Degree in e-Business, and I really feel that I made the right choice. Don't trap yourself into a career by passing up a college degree, even a 2 year school would be sufficient. It will only enhance your marketability when applying for jobs.
College may be mostly a waste of time, but many of the better companies will not take you seriously unless you have that little piece of parchment. If you *truly* know what you are doing, then college is mostly a waste of time, though you pick up a bit here and there. But most of the people I see coming out of high school who think they are high-caliber sysadmins are really not as great as they think, and companies know this. Before my degree I was capping out at 17.50 an hour, but the next week after the degree, the same company started giving 27.50 an hour. Even if you find an 'enlightened' company, you get stuck. If you feel the need to leave, you know your chances of another company being so enlightened are slim. One company tried to tempt me this way, tried to get me to quit and work at 60k a year, but I knew they would have me. Even if it was the perfect job, if it got cut back (like now) I would be screwed.
Even if it doesn't teach you much, a college degree shows something about your work ethic, among other intangibles. To you, skipping colleg may show that you are a no-nonsense, get into action kind of person, but managers many times view this as someone who is too impatient with structure and would likely overlook things such as proper procedure and documentation, which are vital to business on a comparable level to the work itself.
A hot-shot, overconfidant worker who couldn't care less about procedure and documentation is worse than a below-average person who follows procedures and details.
That all being said, it isn't difficult to have a job and school at the same time. Your freshman year you can probably do no better than a little school job, maybe a TA, but by the sophomore year you can land a decent professional grade job that may not pay great, but 14-18 dollars an hour should be possible. This has been my strategy and has allowed me to have enough money to be comfortable and come out with some mobility and security in this rather shaky market.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
There's 2 things school has going for it.
1) The paper means something. I was out of work for 8 months last year, half the interviews I went on were companies looking for paper. Looking back I am glad I didn't land those jobs but at the time it would have been nice. A single guy with little debt can be unemployed for 8 months, if I had a family....
2) Any degree will help you move up. You DO NOT want to be a sysadmin for the rest of your life. The hours suck, you are constantly fighting with some dumbass little thing, you have to bust your ass to keep your skills current. I know it looks like the bomb now but one day when you are 25 or so you'll be sitting at your desk sucking down some Subway and posting on Slashdot when you realize that Wednesday's work day just hit 30 consecutive hours. "Oh look", you'll say, "It's Thursday at lunchtime, I've been here for 30 hours! I want to go fucking home! Shove this pager up your ass boss man!"
I'm having a lovely couple of days btw.
I want out, I want to be a manager, maybe in marketing. I have no education, I'm gonna get it. My boss wants me to get it, he's helping. It's cool. I wish I had done it when I was 20 though.
Don't plan on being a sysadmin for the rest of your life. Most guys I know don't make it past 30 in this job, you get out or you burn out. It is fun while it lasts but it will cost you your health, your social life and your perspective.
Slashdot posts these stories about college/no college or the job situation in general(in which having a degree or not seems to be a big factor.)
All I can say is look at these responses. I can tell you they are exactly the same in each article like this. The ones that scream 'go to college' all say to do it because it makes you look more valuable. Or because in a 'tight job market' having a degree makes it easier to get a job.
Every single one of these posters seems to view themselves in terms of how valuable they are to employers. Its really a subservient attitude, and I wish colleges would teach people to be more self-reliant rather than trying to mold themselvees into what they think the market wants. Really your true value comes from within - what you know, who you know, how well you can sell yourself.
In the professional world, your attitude shouldn't be "find someone who gives me a decent job". It shouldn't be waiting to say "how high" when an employer says "jump". Rather, you should look at a job as "how can I create value for my employer and its customers". Do that and you'll never need to worry about money. Because if you can prove to people that you can make them money or save them money by hiring you, you'll never be without work.
Your value is determined by what you can produce, not by what someone is willing to pay you based on a resume. If you think going to college will enable you to produce more throughout your career, by all means, do it. Personally, I plan on finishing college, but I don't have a plan to work for some big corp. I believe I can make more money and have a better career starting my own business, and I want the degree mainly for the knowledge and for the challenge. If you do go to college, do it for you, not for what others think of you.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
Maybe I'm a little too late to jump in on this one, but from all the high ranked posts that just say "You don't know what you want, go to college!" I don't think they're all right. However, they do have a point. Chances are you really don't have a very good understanding of everything in the world, and a University is a good place to get a varied world view with multiple perspectives you hadn't thought of. However, the four-year-deal isn't for everyone.
Everyone always hypes the bachelors programs as the end all of college. Its not. In fact, jumping right in can be overwhelming, cause you to lose focus and swear 'Why the hell am I taking Composition? I want to work on computers!' Thus, I propose that you don't go to a 4 year University, but rather head to a Community College and start work on an AA. Why you might ask? Very simple. You start gaining the benefits of working on a degree, without committing yourself to 4 whole years. If after 2 years you're screaming 'I want to work on computers!' You can cut out with a 2 year AA. If you went straight for the BA, you don't have that option.
Also, the first two years at a University is spent primarily on general education (math, writing, speech, basic history, etc). At a four year University, they have to do so many of these courses that they tend to have massive class sizes. During my first two years at the University of Central Florida, it wasn't uncommon to be in a class of 200-300 people. In a Community College setting, you generally won't find a class above 50 people, allowing for much more personal interaction (and interest) from your instructor. This can be key to getting the best out of the education you're paying for, as I've found that if the professor knows you by name, you will gain between 2-5% on your final grade. This is, in part, because you've been paying attention to your professor, and in part, because the professor _knows_ that you have been paying attention.
Furthermore, you're really not selling yourself short by starting at a Community College. After you get your AA, if you wish to continue, you can go to a 4 year University after that (and only have to work for another 2 years) and get a Bachelors degree. Despite what everyone says, the University is not for everyone.
My credientials on the subject matter: I enrolled at the University of Central Florida's BA program directly in the Fall of 1999 as a Computer Science student. I decided I hated to think of computers as anything more than a tool to accomplish non-computer related tasks, and switched over to Political Theory (which I find far more fun). I graduated last month, and am going on to do PhD research in Political Theory starting next fall.
I also had the opportunity to work in an Internet Service Provider straight out of High School (with heavy implication that I would be offered a management position). They pay had the potential to be pretty good, however, I had no desire to live that life at that time.
Take these opinions however you wish, it is your life. Don't let what nameless people on Slashdot tell you dictate what you do.
Some say it "Opens Doors". Sure, it CAN open some doors, but it depends on what those doors are. Someone else WILL offer the same position, without the bull. If you're being disqualified becuase you don't have a college degree, then maybe those employers aren't looking at the job REQUIREMENTS. Not the list of letters a potential candidate needs, but what the candidate needs to know to get the job done.
I've already gotten a few job consultancy offers in the area. What has the experience been for any of you out in the tech industry? For you that went to college, did it truly help? And for you that didn't go to college, has it been harder for you to find a job? Also, if you believe that I should go to college, what should I major in? But if you think I shouldn't, what certifications would hold valuable in the future, and what kind of job positions should I take now?"
The only thing I miss about not going to college, is the party life. If you can go on someone elses tab, then go. Otherwise I would suggest taking a job at the consultancy, and getting as many certs as you can on your downtime. Then work towards your personal goals.
I personally like to do as many different things as possible, but I also like control. Luckily, I've found a job that provides me both (small company, I'm the only tech, so I'm IT Manager :). Is that what you're looking for? Then learn all you can, and make that your goal.
Your biggest hurdle is going to be at the interview. I'm a shy person, so I tend to babble. Get it under control. Research the company you want to work for BEFORE you even send out your resume. You'll want to adjust it, and your cover letter, to match your job skills with the job you want more accurately (get a hair cut, and buy some new clothes).
I only had a problem with no college degree at a bank. We're talking suits galore, and a political atmosphere I didn't really like anyways. But it was a great learning experience, because I couldn't buy a damn thing! :) (And now I consult for that former boss - where I couldn't move 'up' because I didn't have a degree, I've come back to make much more because of experience and respect.)
If you don't like politics, go small business.
At the end of the day, you're not going to be satisifed with your decision :)
Either you're going to wish you had gone to college, or think it was a waste of your time.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
My take on this (which hopefully has something insightful after 400 previous posts) is that a college education isn't required. YET. It was the same way for my father in electronics. He worked in an American Airlines repair facility. I think he initially started out on radars.
But after decades of the electronics field maturing, he found that he was just about the only person WITHOUT a college degree. And towards the end of his career, it impacted on his perceived ability to do his job and his chances for promotion.
While a computer degree may not be required NOW, you've got to think about 20 or 30 years down the road. You could very well end up screwed without one.
FWIW, some of my coworkers (sysadmins) don't have college degrees. They are a little uptight about it at times. And they know they are on a little shakier ground than their degreed counterparts.
Is a college education required to do the job? No. But it is the perceptions of people around you, now and in the future, that really count.
College gets you knowledge. But going pro gets you dough.
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
After spending far too much time at a really crappy university, where they had a nearly fraudulent (IMNSHO) attitude toward not scheduling classes necessary to complete a degree without spending more money by staying an extra year or two, I still -- surprisingly -- favor going to college rather than delving into a career. It's important to attend the best college you can find for your intended field, so shop around, and don't decide based on social issues, etc. Get value for your money. (I didn't and hate the university for it.)
I think the importance of college, assuming you get value for your money in classes for your major, is in the "mind-opening" classes that you'll end up taking, in and out of your major area. You may groan about having to take a geology class if you're a computer major, for example, but there is immense value in having a broader perspective than just the technical issues for what you hope will be your eventual career. If you only know those technical details, you bring less value to future employers who will need a well-rounded individual, not just a monkey who knows what buttons to push. (For this reason, I also favor at least a short term of military service, especially overseas. The personal growth makes you a more valuable contributor in a wider range of scenarios.)
Don't cut yourself short, either. Realize that your idea of a "great career" may change drastically in the next ten years. If you only learn what you need to perform a job, of what value are you to yourself if you decide to switch to an entirely different career?
If you can manage to work part-time (in your intended career area) while attending school, I would recommend that. But I do mean "manage" it, don't trash your grades because you enjoy work more. (Speaking from experience there!)
Attending a bad school is probably worse than attending no school, but I believe attending a valuable school is better than delving directly into the work force full-time.
No Laughing Allowed!
I'll start off by admitting that I am infact a college grad. However, I'm not working in my field, physics. I've been a professional programmer ever since I graduated. Here's the rub: I have zero formal education in the field. I built my skills up on the side during college and started getting progressively more responsible jobs afterwards. My physics education has been useful indirectly(analytical skills, math knowledge etc), but has only rarely been directly applied. Do I regret wasting four years on an education that hasn't helped me professionally? Heck no! I loved physics. I'm just not really good enough to make it as a scientist. I went for it and didn't make the cut. No regrets whatsoever for trying. Just a few for not making it.
So what does this mean for your plans? College is not a trade school, and frankly, thats what much of the computer field amounts to, a trade or vocation. I'd say you're better off getting some certs and some junior college creds if you want to be a sys admin. Meanwhile if you go to college, study something you love for its own sake. Looking at what college costs now as opposed to when I went, I'd really have to ask myself whether the skills I would acquire would be worth it. However, the cautionary note here is that a lot employers in the IT field want a bachelors. Some state "or equivalent experience", but most want that BA or BS.
This is what worked for me and I'm sure you'll hate the Idea but...
Join the Air Force.
Now don't flame just hear me out.
If you are getting out of high school and are a computer geek but without the wherewithal or grades to go to a good college then the military will basically be your savior.
Even if you only go the 4 year route like I did you will get from the military four years of tech experience, training in the computer field (networking, admin, programming, etc) that you CHOSE AT THE RECRUITERS (that's very important), the GI bill for college, and a killer resume.
All you really have to content with is 4 years of short haircuts, no drugs, and if you are gay no sex. Of course if you are a geek then 4 more years without sex wont be anything new to you anyway.
This is geared to a Programmer but just change program to Maintain or Operate and there you go.
Granted basic training is a drag but you get 3 college PE credits for it. Then it's on to Tech school where (if your are a programmer) you get another 19 credit hrs and training in various programming languages. Then it's off to your first assignment. Probably some shithole is Texas but you could end up somewhere very nice. PROGRAMMERS DON'T GO TO WAR so you get to stay home. Next you learn whatever it is that they are programming in at your new Base. Everyone says "ADA" but I only saw that at tech school. Everyone else uses what is appropriate to the job. Mostly C or Java for the UNIX side and some kind of Visual crap for MS.
Other than from 7:30 to 4:30 your time is your own with weekends off. There are tons of stuff to do on most Bases but the most important is FREE CLEP/DANTE tests from the Base education office. Take as many as you would like. If you don't pass one on your first try just check out the study material from the Base library and try again in a 6 months.
After the first year you will take your 5 level tests (just a bunch of questions about your career field, You have all the study material issued to you). After that you can start going to the real college off Base if you'd like. Many Bases allow 3 hrs of "Personal Growth Time" for you to take courses during work hours (if your job permits it) or you can go at night. You could also wait for the teachers to come to Base. Most Bases offer night classes as well.
Did I mention the GI Bill yet? Well it makes college WAY cheaper and some Commands will reimburse you for classes that pertain to your career field. Add to that when you do decide to leave the military the GI bill adds to any other benefit you may receive from your employer. Right now I make about 200 a month more just for going to college. Twice a week. At night.
Did I also mention the Community College of the Air Force (CCAF)? Damn near every course that the Air Force sends you to (and they will) are worth college credits. The CCAF is accredited and an associates degree is and an associates degree. It's even better when it's free.
So after four years of work you will have an associates degree (close to a bachelor's). 4 years experience, possibly a security clearance, medals if you do really well, the GI bill and the only 21 -22 year old that you know who can say "yes I was the lead programmer for 2 products" and "why yes I was in charge of the UNIX development lab". Add to all this the ability to bitch to people in bars about how "this damn military is going to crap, back in my day..."
So if your just out of high school and have nothing pending. Go into an Air Force recruiters' office and Say that I want to work on computers. Don't let then sign you up for Security Forces or some Guaranteed General slot that they have open. Just stick to your guns, take the tests they tell you to take and sign the form that says:
Reserved Position of
COMPUTER PROGRAMMER (or OPPERATOR or MAINTANENCE or COM or anything that is followed by 3C***)
Then welcome to crappy basic and to a rather beneficial 4 years. And who knows you might enjoy it.
..which just shows that the human brain is ill-adapted for thinking and was probably designed for cooling the blood-T P
NT was well before 92-94....What kind of hick district only has 3 schools??
I'm a sysadmin. I'm 30. I never went to college. It is the biggest regret of my life.
I've been lucky and managed to get into a high-paying niche area (SAP administration).
As you might have noticed, the market is tight right now. There are a *lot* of jobs that I could do, but I am not being looked at because I lack a college degree. Not having a degree doesn't change the amount of money that I make. Not having a degree does close doors, though.
Screw the work experience, you can get that later. A college degree is a lot harder to go back and make up. Especially if you start talking about being married and having kids. I make (when I'm working) at least 3X what my wife (the teacher) does. I can't just throw that away and go to school full-time.
Do it now while you have no serious obligations. Do it now while you have the time. Screw the debt. If it's not your college education, it will be a house. Or medical bills for your kids. Or something. Going into debt for your education is one of the few debts that's "good"...or at least not "bad". You don't have to go to MIT or Harvard either. Just get a degree in a semi-related field from a reputable, accredited university.
You can teach yourself, or work nights, or do something to get that experience. Don't pass up on the college, man. This is the *best* opportunity that you'll ever have to take four or five years off and get that piece of paper.
Sure, people kvetch about "the college grad who doesn't know shit". Some of it's true. Some of it's jealousy. But it's easy to make up the experience -- you get a job. It's a helluva lot harder to go back and make up the degree. If you spend some of your time learning *outside* of the classroom, you'll be set.
No computer lab worth its name would accede to such demands. In fact, such demands should convince them entirely that you're more interested in flashy-looking paperwork than actual learning, and hence are not a good candidate.
Accepting often-meaningless industry certs does not demonstrate that a department is interested in real-world skills, it demonstrates that the department is desperate for cash and trying to gain corporate sponsorship. Real skills taught by real colleges last far longer than any industry cert. Do you really think a month of studying Swing or MFC is worth as much as a month learning what data structures are all about?
That's why my degree will last for life, but the MCPs who took Visual C++ 6 several years ago are now "uncertified" again, in spite of the fact that the tool hasn't actually changed a bit since then and is still in mainstream use. The vast majority of industry certifications are money-spinning, code-monkey-developing cash cows, and nothing more. (Incidentally, having recently been in the job market myself, this seems to be how they are perceived by employers looking to fill good positions. Compare and contrast with proper degrees, please.)
And speaking of starting salaries, if you think some pro cert is going to get you a higher salary than a degree at the start of your career, you're gravely mistaken. Many places will file you in the circular cabinet without a second thought if you aren't degree-qualified, however many TLAs, ETLAs and so on you write on your resume. I don't think it's going to be hard to beat a starting salary of $5/hour at McD's.
For whom? Not any employers, programmers or sysadmins I know, at any level of experience, that's for sure.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
My personal inclination would be to take the job and supplement it with community-college courses, at least to start. Then, if you decide you really want an IT degree, go for it after you have some background under your belt.
There are going to be many things you learn about being a system administrator, by being a system administrator, that college will never be able to teach you.
Oh yeah . . . and of course, you have to read the definitive work on the subject.
Someone you trust is one of us.
College is not needed for most computer/IT/internet careers ... at least not to be able to do them. I've seen too many "idiots with degrees" to ever believe that college makes much of a difference. And this applies whether the career is programming or system administration or network administration.
What college will do for you is:
I may be hiring by the end of the year in a business I'm still trying to get launched. I can tell you this. I'd much rather hire someone coming out of the military than someone coming out of college. Good people can learn new technology. Bad people are stuck in what they managed to learn some of. Learning takes discipline, and you get far more of that in the military than in college. Not everyone coming out would be worth hiring, but even fewer coming out of college will be ... and fewer still coming out of high school. I'll be looking more for solidity in understanding basic logic and strategy, then in understanding any particular system. I'd rather hire a smart person with an MCSE (which is otherwise worthless) than a dumb person with an RHCE for doing Linux administration.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
1) College is the most fun four years of your life. Five if you stretch it. :) If you miss them you will regret it for the rest of your life. You won't have anywhere near the same experience if you go back when you're 30; you'll just be studying (which is what it sounds like you think all of college is. Wrong!)
2) Maybe 10% of what I learned in college related to my major (CS) (and unlike many people, I majored in what I eventually ended up working in.) Maybe 30% total was related to classes I took. That doesn't mean the other 70% wasn't useful to learn; in fact I think it was that other 70% that most made the time worthwhile. Some of it might relate to hobbies you take up and get a lot of fun from. Some of it will be interpersonal relationships (read that how you like. :) Sex, but more than that too. Friends who will last you your whole life. Teachers who will open your eyes to new things, academic and otherwise. More.) Some of it will just be fun and cool stuff you'll never forget.
3) Maybe 10% of what I knew about my major when I graduated, I learned in classes. The rest of the stuff I got because I had four years to essentially play with whatever interested me, with the college's blessing and equipment and assistance (except for the one time when I almost got expelled. :) )
But at the same time don't discount that classroom 10%. Many of the things I learned from classes were things I would not ever have learned on my own, for lack of time or interest or simply not having a reason to go there. Chip architecture and why some types of operations work better than others. Compiler design. Assembly language. Real fundamentals that make the bits and pieces you learn elsewhere fit into a cohesive framework and become workable knowledge. In addition to giving you a better understanding of things you know now, you'll have a more solid base for learning things in the future.
4) Maybe you will find that you like something even better than being a sysadmin. Don't scoff, it happens all the time. Acting. Teaching. Digging up fossils. Blowing up the chem lab. Whatever. Maybe even programming. :) You won't ever be exposed to most of these things if you go straight into the workforce.
5) If you really feel the need to work, you can work while you're in college. Best of all possible worlds. Not only are you getting the experience, you're having the fun, and if you run into a problem at work you have a ton of resources at hand you can use to learn about the problem and how it should be fixed. You can get a job with a company and make (a little) money or you can work at a job in the college and get broader experience. Or both, if you're a masochist.
6) Did I mention that college was fun?
People here who are saying "You don't need college; look at me, I didn't," don't know what they are missing. Sure they have a job. Whoopee. If a job is all you want out of life, fine. But IMNSHO college is an opportunity for a lot more than a better job.
Don't screw yourself. Go to college.
What is mainly wrong with CS in higher education is the lack of standards. It is hard to implement standards, and your typical academic attitude belies the laziness of the tenure system in general.
What magical quality is there with rhetoric 101 in a 300-seat lecture hall that will teach a person to think? How can you argue that such an experience is worthwhile?
The most valuable things I learned in my (comparatively challenging) academic career were discovered outside of the classroom. Then, it was the only game in town. Now, it is not.
College is no longer blindly accepted as a touchstone of personal scholarship. As an academic, prove your worth, or lose what little respect that you still have.
...JohnDenver gets it!
"A microprocessor... is a terrible thing to waste." --
GeneralEmergency
Sort of offtopic, but I've always been curious to know, how does one afford to take a year off and "just travel"? I hear it talked about all the time, especially in European countries, but I can't imagine, even at this stage in my life when I've been working for five years, how this can be affordable.
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do.
Answer:The Geeks from MIT with their degrees.
Why? Because these geeks will eventually have the experience, the degree, and the status.
IF you dont have a degree, Have fun competiting with the third world programmers and technicians in China, India, Pakistan, etc.
IF you didnt read the last slashdot article, Americans are being fired so these cheaper equally qualified workers from outside the country can take their job.
I recieved posts from people who said "Well to compete you have to provide better value"
The only way to provide better value is to have a better education. People in Pakistan may have more experience, more talent, and more skill but you still have to survive! You wont always be the smartest and best, you have to survive anyway, and when you compete with people who may be BETTER than you, you have to work HARDER than them to win, meaning getting your degree.
Lets see what slashdot thinks.
Quote from rmjiv rmjiv's profile
How about providing a better value? There will always be costs associated with manufacturing products at distance from use. This is as true of software as it is of cars. For cars, the extra costs is in the delivery. For software, it's in the communication of requirements (and the changing of requirements, etc.). If value = (quality / cost) then you don't necessarily need a lower cost to provide equal or greater value. I suggest reading Yourden's Rise and Resurrection of the American Programmer. It's an interesting read, and might even cheer you up.
BTW, if you can't provide a better value, why do you believe you deserve a job as a programmer?
She came sliding down the alleyway like butter dripping off of a hot biscuit."
Quote from Whitehawke WhiteHawke's Profile
Actually, I'm not worried about this for a lot of reasons:
1) As a skilled and reasonably experienced (7 years) developer, I'm better than most (though certainly not all) of the developers from the Third World.
2) I can actually interview on-site. Making a face-to-face impression is a HUGE advantage.
3) Companies don't even like to let people telecommute if they have a choice; they like to have people in-house, under their eye.
--Dave Storrs
These are some of the opinions of people at Slashdot, it seems they all see my point. Get a degree, or be replaced by Muhammed from Pakistan, or Wong Fei Lee from China.
You dont have a choice. Its survival of the most educated not the most talented.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Couple of issues with this post.
1) His last name is Spielberg. What was your grade in spelling?
2) The fact that he is trying to get his degree does not mean that he can't go on without it.
Bill Gates does not have a degree.. maybe if he goes back to school he can learn how to double his money eh?
I don't have a degree and I spell better than you..
---
((( In Stereo for the Hearing Impaired )))
You don't have to go to college to get a (decent) job. But that's not why to go. It's a great big world-wide club, and this is your chance to join. This decision, for or against, will follow you your whole life.
I'm 47 years old, with no college degree. I left a good university in my second year, for various personal reasons (but was still in good standing and had good grades). Since then I've done a lot of stuff -- developed operating systems, designed languages, wrote compilers, launched businesses, run my own company for over 20 years, yatta yatta yatta. Also done lots of non-tech stuff: raised orchids, worked as a musician, traveled, launched a restaurant. And I'm pretty widely read, etc. But at the end of the day, I regret having to take the path I took. For 10-15 years, I kept expecting to go back to school after I dealt with immediate priorities. But eventually, that chance dried up.
I've known quite a few old farts who went back to school in their forties; but they've all been pretty lame in my experience, and I don't really want to be one of them. And besides, I still have other stuff to do. I didn't miss out on the intellectual/educational side of life (I found that outside of college) but on the social/cultural/personal-network side.
College can be a grind and a waste; but if you use the time right, college can give you a breadth of vision and experience that you just won't get if you're knuckled down on the job for ten years. So please think about this carefully. You should be in no hurry to work as a sysadm -- those jobs will always be there.
-- We all have enough strength to endure the misfortunes of other people. La Rochefoucauld
There's lots of pressure to start your career, and stop being poor. Every year you put it off though, it becomes harder to return. Don't just look at college as a career move. It'll probably be the last time in your life that you're surrounded by young people of your age with the same concerns and goals. It's an opportunity to open your eyes and mind in ways you'll never find anywhere else, or at any age.
Look for a college as far from home as possible as you will benefit more. Don't worry about the expense - just made the last payment on my student loans, and I consider every penny well spent, although I wish I hadn't worried so much at the time as it really hasn't me since. If you feel really adventurous, look for a college with a foreign exchange programme - that's the easiest way to go and live overseas for a year. You might even be able to work when you're there and earn some extra beer and travel tokens. This is the best way for you to find personal challenges that will live with you for the rest of your life, no matter where your career goes. It'll help you develop a wider and more balanced view of the world.
If you choose to work now, be sure that you won't have regrets in 10 years - I know a lot of people who've had early mid-life crises by the time they hit 30 as suddenly realised they went from being a student to a worker and have lost out on life and some of their youth.
- attend your local Humungous State University in whatever major you like
- get a job as an assistant in one of the campus computer labs
- cultivate relationships with some of the faculty and staff
- jump from the lab assistant position to a sysadmin position based on recommendations from faculty or staff
- upon graduation either get hired directly by the department for which you were a student worker, or use your experience on you resume (or use your faculty contacts to find a job outside the universiy: many faculty have their own private sector contacts that they can tap for you, if you ask nicely).
You won't find that any of the available degree programs relate directly to system administraction, but the experience you can get at a good university, in terms of exposure to a wide range of computing platforms and familiarity with office politics, is invaluable.You will also find that, after a certain point, you can't learn any more about the craft from books: you need to have mentors. Working as an assistant sysadmin in a university is an ideal way to get exposure to large pool of experienced sysadmins, many of who are more than willing to share their experience.
(Of course, the moral of the story is: It's not what you know, but who you know, that counts)
While it's true that hands-on experience and proven skills still count for more than degrees and certifications in many circles, a college degree is almost a requirement for getting a job these days. In fact, I'll even go so far as to say that it doesn't matter much *what* your degree is in (provided you have said experience and skills). I know an IT manager whose degree is in pre-seminary work; however, on his resume, he just lists that he has a B.A. and leaves it at that. And doors still open for him.
It bears repeating, so I'll say it again: A college degree is virtually a requirement for landing a decent job these days.
Besides, you may find it an enriching experience that your previous schoolwork doesn't begin to compare to.
If membership in the Oracle Academic Initiative belies a desperate, cash strapped department, then will you please explain why every big-ten school is listed under the OAI directory?
This is all a question of independent review of academic standards. Java instruction from Stanford is not the same as Java instruction from MIT is not the same as Java instruction from UIUC et al. With the academic adoption of JCert, these programs would be the same. This is a valuable goal.
Currently, colleges and universities are free to adopt their own CS standards as long as they are not ridiculously lax. Enforced certifications in Java and SQL would tighten things up considerably, and they should be implemented today.
I started college with a dual-major in physics and German. After a year I changed from physics to math. Soon after I wanted to change from math to CS, but wanted to graduate within 4 years so I just got a CS minor (stuck with the German though, it was easy). I programmed for a year, quit because I really didn't like it. Now I'm doing helpdesk work, and hate it.
Only about half the people I work with have college degrees, and most of them (myself included) had no idea what they wanted to do while in college. It has taken a few years of "real world" experience to figure it out, and some serious thinking. After taking some classes at the community college and spending several months thinking about what I like, I am preparing to start law school this fall. I am happy with my decision. However, I would have chosen classes differently and focused on different areas if I had been planning for a career in law rather than in {german,math,physics,programming}.
Bottom line is, college is important, but know what you want to do first. Even if you think you know now, take a few years to work (you have job offers!) before you make a commitment in college. Figure out your own path, get certifications as needed, and go to college when you think it is time, not when people tell you to do it.
I was a sysadmin for 2 years. Now, there are two types of sysadmins.. Those who work at ISPs who get paid shit, work long hours, have absolutely no job security, are disposable and generally are self-taught (and not very well) and there are corporate sysadmins, who are paid very well, but they administer Novell, Tivoli, SAP, etc (in other words, not much UNIX involved.) To be a corporate sysadmin, you basically NEED a college degree; or at least an associates degree from some tech institute. You don't want to be the other type of sysadmin, you're basically about a notch above the janitor.
Fact is though, right now, the sysadmin market is VERY oversaturated. I know a guy who was a sysadmin over at Enron (we all know what happened there) who is now bagging groceries because NOBODY is hiring, and this guy has like 5 or 6 years experience on enterprise hardware (aka he's a guru.) Most of the ISPs have gone out of business or are laying people off. Regardless of what you know, you'll be very hard pressed to find a job, especially at 18 years old.
My suggestion is to go to college first. The job market sucks right now anyway, so now's a great time to go get some skills while losing the minimum potential earnings. If you want to do corporate stuff (where you make decent cash) go for a degree in MIS (Management Information Systems, usuallly in the Business school) or CS (Computer Science, usually Engineering.)
I was one of the first kind of sysadmins, I worked at an ISP and was very disposable. But that was okay, I was only 16 and the business climate was very different. Now I'm in college, and am doing some sysadmin stuff on the side for my school and am still getting paid shit, but again, it doesn't matter. The job is basically just for extra spending money. If I wanted more money I could go be a waiter (seriously, friend of mine who works at Chili's makes more per hour than I or my co-workers make.)
Anyway, my suggestion is: go to college. You're not going to find a job right now anyway, so you might as well go get a degree. And if you still want to be a sysadmin when you get out, you'll have that many more possibilities open to you. It's a no-lose situation.
Definitely go to college and get a bachelor's. The subject doesn't matter. The important thing is that you learn how to think critically, and that you learn how to learn. THAT is the true purpose of a college education.
Beyond that, find a senior-level admin who will mentor you (the SAGE organization has a mentoring program). Get a professional, not a vendor, certification (SAGE also offers a professional certification program).
.@.
Also, let's have some objective statistics on the subject:
http://www.crn.com/sections/special/ssurvey/ssur ve y01.asp?ArticleID=25726
I am completely anomalous. I started out your typical paid-for-crap ISP sysadmin, and worked my way up from there. I found zero use for certifications or the like. I attempted going to a small school near me, but I quickly realized it was a waste of my time and money. (When the professor said, "OSI? It means, uh, ISO backwards" I realized it was time to get out.)
College is good in a respect, I suppose, in that it encourages you to better yourself. I'm continually growing as a sysadmin, and I went from working a crap ISP job to working at places like Netscape and Wells Fargo, administering large Sun Enterprise systems. It came from always asking questions, always reading and researching, and always picking peoples' brains. If you have the drive, you'll succeed either in college or in the job market. The hard part is finding someone who'll take a chance on you. (I did find those people, at the right times, which is why I consider myself to be successful now.)
Technically, I'm not a systems administrator anymore. I did get burnt out on sysadmin work. ("Great. I've been a senior sysadmin at Netscape. Other than management, where else can I go now?") However, I never lost sight of the "forward momentum" needed in the IT world, and took a job that will make me a much better sysadmin, should I ever go back to it.
Point being - you'll learn in college, or you'll learn on the job. The two aren't that different, but how you handle it will be.
A good traveller has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving.
Financial aid helps you buy a house?
Loans for houses = more interest doesnt it? Hows he going to pay it back without a degree and good job?
Time? Not everyone wants to work until the day they die.
Personally, I want to work until I'm in my 40s
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
...you are going to take the experience seriously.
I think a lot of people have given good reasons to go to college, including opportunity to continue exploring options and gain "a piece of paper" that adds mobility. I agree with them.
That said however, don't go to college for the piece of paper and don't go at all if you are going to a school that doesn't challenge or interest you. Yes, the piece of paper will help, and college can be an incredible experience. Yet I think the value of the college experience can be drastically overrated as well. I think learning how to do something useful is the most important thing of all, and that requires a few years of study inside or outside of school. A nonsense college degree that was easy to get won't help you that much.
Also, taking a year or two off from school can be a fabulous experience. Many schools recommend it (Harvard for instance). You could work for a few years and see if the life suits you, and then decide to pursue a college degree.
A caveat: pursuing college studies more than a year or two late is certainly possible, but a very different experience. Also, if someone (such as your parents) are willing to pay for college now, they might not be willing to much later.
You mean like course number cs193J "Programming in Java" being taught this summer? (http://cs.stanford.edu/Courses/Schedules/2001-200 2.summer.html) Perhaps Stanford is no longer a "real university" - shall we observe a moment of silence to mourn its passing?
A master of evasion you are not.
Suicide's not worth it, dude.
Actually, Stanford does have a java class. CS193J. Being part of the 193 series, which exists to teach tools, it cannot count towards a degree in computer science. Also, the third quarter of programming (object-oriented and large software projects) is taught in java, and the optimizing compilers class was this year, too.
-Dan
That I have not yet read one single post about how much fun college is. You will finally meet people very much like yourself, you will go out to eat supper at 3am with friends for no reason. You'll live life in a dorm full of very interesting people, develop entirely new social skills and have a great time in the process.
Also, it'll be great for your career, etc, yadda yadda.
I may be responding a little slow on this topic, slashdot time, but as someone who left school and got a job as a sysadmin, I feel my point of view may be relevant.
A lot of people have talked about upstart kids who skip college and get jobs who don't work out because of bad attitudes. I've seen these types myself, who think they are smarter than everyone else (even if they are), and they truly are an annoying breed. However, the college degree (or rather lack thereof) is a symptom of that, not a cause. Kids who think they know everything don't want to go to school and have someone tell them they don't.
When I left college I ended up doing contracting/consulting and the entire time no one cared whether I had a degree. I started working in '97, so the market may have helped this. Now I work at a small private college. But if I had continued on my consultant track I could have continued to make lots of money in a fast pace career.
I've always wondered whether or not my lack of degree will rear it's ugly head and screw me up. However, since I'm not interested in going very far from my sysadmin roots, and would not want a purely management job, it _may_ never be a problem. But I'm also the type of person who has no problem giving up a little bit of money for a good job. If you want to be someone who makes the big bucks, corporate climb, you probably want a college degree with one of those fancy names on it.
So, what I'm saying is I left college and never looked back, and it hasn't caused me any problems yet. I don't feel as though it 'jump started' my career by starting earlier. That wasn't why I left either. As much as you may feel as though the world is rushing by while you are in college, it really isn't.
I advocate going to college. I remember very fondly my college years (well, 1.5), and most of my long term friends I made there. Living with a bunch of people your age day in and day out gives you social outlets you won't have when you are in the work place. College gives you more freedom than you ever had, and gives you more free time than you are likely to ever have again.
In college you will have 90% of all the philosophical discussions that you will have in your life time.
In college you will drink 50% of all the alcohol you will ever drink in your life time.
In college you will do 80% of all the drugs you will ever do in your life time.
In college you will do 70% of all the things you will in the future tell stories about.
In college you will do 60% of all the things you regret in your life time.
In college you will sleep with 70% of all the women and/or men you will in your lifetime.
In college you will do 80% of all the kinky sex acts you will in your lifetime.
So, job or no, go to college, at least for a little while.
Good writing is critical. Go to college, and not a technical two-year college, but a traditional four-year university program. Don't be afraid to go to a college that has a "common core" requirement, or something similar. Reading Plato and Weber will not help you be a better systems administrator, but writing about Plato and Weber and having access to a real professor who can actually give you helpful information about how to improve your writing is an invaluable experience.
When employers talk about "interpersonal skills" or a "people person," they mean exactly two things:
If you have a full command of the English language, PHBs eat that up. I've found that there are three things that management can't get enough of:
Point (3) is where the writing comes in. It is absolutely critical, and a simple spellcheck/grammar check/automated thesaurus will not improve your communication.
In addition to communication skills, you'll need the right attitude to be a successful sysadmin. Basically, the way to achieve this attitude is to remember that you're not the reason the company is there: your role is a facilitator. You don't drive the business - you ensure the business runs smoothly. If your boss asks you to do some routine technical support, don't respond that that sort of thing is "below" you. If the CEO's secretary doesn't understand some setting in her email program, explain it to her, briefly and sans holier-than-thou attitude.
However, if you have ideas on how to improve efficiency, share them immediately. In fact, I would recommend that you occasionally visit other parts of your company to see if they need any help. I've noted this strange phenomenon: some departments may not have a real technical person working for them. They'll have the general technical support staff which is limited to ensuring PCs run smoothly. This department will then continue receiving new tasks to do routinely, and, since they don't have a technical person with them, won't figure out that certain jobs can be automated. I'm talking about things like printing out reports from the unix server to type the data into excel; cutting and pasting data from excel into an editor to reformat it for some database app; scanning through hundreds of text documents by eye, in combination with word's search features because they don't know how to use grep from the command line. Every large company has lots of trivial things like this that can be automated, and you should search for them, because non-technical people won't realize these tasks can be automated.
For God's Sake Go To College!
Some of us are just graduating now! You're young ass better stay out of my job market! You'll hear from me if you take my job! It's mine mine mine!
So close and yet so far from the world's perfect ID number
Too bad the moderators were too obtuse to appreciate it.
"Communism is like having one [local] phone company " - Lenny Bruce
The only exception is if you already have a career mapped out for yourself as an engineer of some kind. That's a very demanding discipline, and it genuinely requires the full course of a college education to amass the basic skills you need just to begin work. But if you're going for jobs as a sysadmin -- which is technical, but not really in the same league as engineering -- you should make every effort to see yourself educated.
An education is primarily about YOU, and your growth and development. It's about broadening yourself, exposing yourself to thoughts and perspectives you've never encountered before. It's about deciding what's important in your life, about learning how to learn, about building character, about fulfilling your potential as a human being in the culture in which you live. Secondarily you might find out a few things that will be useful in your future employment. But you'll find opportunities with a college degree regardless of what you major in or what you learn. And who knows what effect all this will have on what you think you want to do with your life. Don't skip it!
If someone had told me this when I was your age, I'd be a lot happier today.
And the brethren went away edified.
I've dropped out of college to jump into the emerging PC networking industry in the mid/late 80's. I'm now in my mid-30's and without a degree or extensive experience managing people, I'm in a precarious position. I can't get into the management side of things without the degree, and tend to be undercut by young one's like yourself. Why pay me $60-80K when you'll work for $30-40K - and be more willing to work extensive overtime (without pay!) since you don't have a family yet.
Sure, you can take the short cut now, but significantly stunt your path - or invest the time and effort in a wider career potential now while you're better able to put in the time needed.
Some will say my advice is nonsense, that you can either work your way into management - or that management sucks and if you don't have interest in it then don't bother. I'd still say that you'd be limiting your options - whether you want to work your way up that far right now isn't important. When you get 15 years into your career and begin tiring of (1) the pager going off all hours of the day, (2) taking orders from ignorant managers that don't understand the tech as well as you, and/or (3) just want a change, that's when that decision matters.
Up until a few years ago, I was quite please and proud of my accomplishments career-wise. Now, I'm beginning to regret only having an AS and no long term management opportunities. I've reached a level where my salary requirements and age are significant factors alongside the experience on my resume. I can only assume this will continue as I head into my 40's. I'm now struggling with how to finish up that degree I abandoned so long ago.
Once more, sometimes shortcuts are only benificial for the short-term. It's the long-term planning that's most important - unless you like slaving away chained to a pager/laptop while your friends are dating, marrying, parenting, etc.
I AM, therefore I THINK!
But lack of a degree will most unfortunately remove you from consideration for many opportunities. Even being able to say, "I'm through with all this, I'm going off to teach computers to elementary schoolkids!"
You have several upmodded posts on this topic where you droll on about the beauty of mediocrity, the primacy of social climbing over getting work done, the subjugation of individual worth, and the value of college education as if you were some kind of born again commie.
Perhaps you work for some government contractor where mediocrity is mandatory, but in the real world talent is as talent does. I interview for coders at a surviving startup, and I certainly dont favor the degree-laden. In fact, based strictly upon personal experience, Ill hold it against you until you prove that college hasnt made you into an idiot. (generally its to late if youre a phd)
People who really like and want to code, from those i know, find the free-ride, insight bereft, 4 year beer-binging, elementary level "educations" coming out of for-profit ivy league degree mills to be repulsive. Those who wish to learn will do so, going to an institution of formal learning being as harmful as it is helpful.
An there is no coding nirvana where all programmers are interchangeable. And if you cannot understand someone's code, that doesnt automatically mean its incorrect. (it may mean you are an idiot, keep an open mind and youll be less of one)
The best code is created fastest when you give your programmers some leeway to craft their own vision, and provide them with analysis/critiques.
Your duff beer name invokes an image of homer at work pushing the button as your ideal programming workplace: one where the programmer is completely interchangeable if not irrelevant.
From a system administrator without a degree (me):
Reasons you should go to college:
1) Getting good at programming will make you a better administrator.
2) The job market isn't great now. You're better off spending your time expanding your skills.
3) Right now, your dream is to be a system administrator. Once you have been a system administrator for a few years, you may find that some other career area looks more interesting. If all you have is your experience, you're stuck. If you have a degree, you can switch around much more easily.
4) Even strictly within the administration field, lots of places require a BS degree just for system administration. Even if you have all the experience, wouldn't it suck to have your resume trashed by some ignorant HR flunky because your resume didn't match everything on their checklist?
5) In hard economic times, if you find yourself looking for a job, people with a degree will be chosen over people without a degree if both are experienced and otherwise qualified.
6) College is fun! Night school is fun, too but not nearly as much fun as it would be if I didn't have to hold down a full-time job at the same time. Whoops, we were talking about you. Oh well, take it from a guy who is five years down the "road less travelled". At this particular fork, you want to take the road more travelled.
include $sig;
1;
and also because sysadmin is a thankless job. Not to offend anyone, but people never know you exist. And the only time they find out you do exist is when something breaks. And the only reason they find that out is so that can blame you for it, regerdless whether it is your fault or not. And then they forget you exist again. and it goes in an infinite loop
g ineer); //or whatever else
quit_time = false;
sysadmin_tolerance_counter = 0;
while(!quit_time){
if (everything is OK) continue;
else{
find sysadmin
blame sysadmin
threaten to fire sysadmin
if(sysadmin_tolerance_counter++ > MAX_HUMAN_TOLERANCE){
quit_time = true;
}else{
sysadmin fixes the problem
forget about sysadmin
}
}
}
sysadmin.GoToCollege();
sysadmin.become(En
----
kinda crude, but the picture is right
Jobs? Which jobs?
But don't limit yourself to internship. Learn on your own (you can get a beater PC for $100 -- speed doesn't matter; buy three or four and network them (you only need one monitor); load them with Linux and OpenBSD and any other free OS you care to try, and learn them all. After a few weeks of playing (adding and deleting users, backing up directories, re-loading software, patching software, etc.) you will know enough to volunteer to run the network at the local YMCA/Red Cross/Library/whatever. Even if you don't get paid for it, you'll gain valuable experience with real-world problems (and volunteer work looks great on that resume!). Pretty soon (sophmore year or so) you'll be good enough to get paid for it -- run the network at some local law office, or a doc-in-the-box medical clinic, or your Uncle's insurance company, or whatever. Face it, you'll want if not need a job in collage, so you might as well get some useful work experience out of it.
Bottom line: DO BOTH. Get the degree and the work experience. The other comments about the social benefits of collage are spot on -- you won't regret it. Good luck, and have fun!
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
I've been trying to get my foot in the sysadmin door since 95. 20 years of computer maintenance experience in the Air Force didn't mean squat, my BS in MIS didn't mean jack, and my MCSE and A+ certs weren't worth anything to companies. Why did my employer hire me, someone with no unix experience,to administer their Unix servers? Because I had the degree and my record showed persistence. I think the biggest reason was I had a track record of getting results where my predecessor failed. Get that degree, get experience while going to school, and be sure to document your successes WITH statics in your resume. Don't overlook volunteering your time with network shops. Yes, work for no wage at all. Money isn't everything, but experience is when it comes to getting hired.
Dear Chicks Hate Me,
I teach a LAN Administration class at my high school (Bishop Union High, in Bishop, California), and every year I have the brightest, most motivated, and technically proficient kids in the school in my class.
The question often comes up about whether they should begin working and earning money right away, or whether to go off to college.
My advice? I see it this way. Kids have the entire rest of their lives to work. It would be foolish to jump into the work force without experiencing the joy of higher learning, if you have the opportunity. A college education is MORE than learning a trade. It is exposure to new ideas you may not have been exposed to otherwise. It is mingling with peers in a purely academic setting - an opportunity you will find quite rare as an adult in the workforce. Take the time to get the degree, and you'll find you not only have more foot-in-the-door clout, but you just may actually learn something OTHER than your passion (in this case, technology). Life is so much more than you can realize at 18.
So don't waste the opportunity for a few bucks now. You can *always* earn money - there is always a market for talented, enthusiastic people. It'll be there when you're done with college. Hell, it'll be there long after you're dead and gone.
Carpe diem.
Joe Griego
Dir., I.T.
BUHS
Don't Die Wondering
You're young. You're free. You're careless. WHY DONT YOU GO TO COLLEGE ?
:
... but then, you don't need the certs anymore to get hired !)
A few point for college
- Early 20s is the best time to go to school. When you are nearing 30, got debt to pay, kid to feed and a full time job you must keep, going back to school is a major undertaking requiring serious sacrifice. I am speaking from experience here. Why not play it safe and go to college when it is actually EASY to do it ?
- You will actually learn useful thing in school. Unfortunately it is hard to put that into perspective when you dont have much experience.
- It is a common misbelieve that sysadmin don't need programming skill (or anything else taught in CS). That is false. The best sysadmin are at least passable programmer, if only to write an odd script here and there. Also, a little C will go a long way toward understanding those cryptic error you get when you are compiling a new kernel. Plus getting the big picture is important if you want to be polyvalent.
- The chicks. The partys. The network of friend you are building in college.
- Certs are useless. Period. (Ok, maybe if they are backed by serious experience
There is a lot more to say, but these are the most important one to me. Personnally, I wish I had gone to college/university back a decade ago. My life would certainly not be the same (probably better).
:wq
10 -- It might be the last time you see Unix
9 -- If it's down to you and a college grad for a job the college grad will probably get the job
8 -- 20 something chicks
7 -- Lesbians, lesbians, lesbians
6 -- You need to be well rounded. Learn things that aren't computer related.
5 -- I hear Microsoft has invented this thing called Zero Administration... could be trouble!
4 -- Beer.
3 -- Did I mention the Lesbians?
2 -- Because you'll hate yourself if you don't
1 -- You might find out you _don't_ want to be a Sys Admin
This
My goal is to be a master of my craft. To be able to walk down the street and say that out of the 1 million people I will ever come across, I can do things that they cannot. Besides the huge boost to one's ego this brings (which is quite a problem if you don't control it), you just feel damn good knowing you can solve problems with technology.
I am not college educated. In fact, if it weren't for a technicality I'd have failed high school and dropped out. But the moral is that there are multiple paths from point A to point B, both have advantages and disadvantages. Do what you like. If you're not a structured education kind of person (and I guess I'm not), don't force yourself to sit through years of college being miserable.
Don't be afraid to take chances. Sticking to the same beaten path means you're likely to get the same mediocre rewards as everyone else. :)
Army's not the only force branch looking for recruits and officers. Of course, if you want to be an officer, you ought to get a college degree...
I dont know about the A.F. but in the Navy you can join 3x6. That's 3 years active duty, then 3 years reserve (at least 1 year of which must be active reserves). Most people who sign up for 4 years active duty must then be on inactive reserves for 2 years (4x6?).
Anyway it's enough time to get the traning. You also get certain benefits if you want go to college after you tour of duty. Plus you get a small income while in school for being active reserve.
I've actually found my way trough a lot of the ideas presented here. I went to a vocational technical H.S. (plumbing). Then I joined the Navy. Then I went to college. Then I worked for Bell Labs as Sys. Admin where I learned what I really needed to know to manage UNIX systems.
If you ask me college simply provides you with the credemtials you need to get your foot in the door. A former collegue of mine who had been in the Army never went to college. He managed to become a Sys Admin in the Army. When he got out he started doing entry level contract work. He worked his way up until he landed a direct position as director of IT at a large financial company.
There are many routes you can take. Most likely the one you end up on will not be the one you started upon. Just get yourself going down a path that has potential. Always be on the lookout for new opportunites.
I would recommend going to college and having fun if your parents are paying for it. You may never again have that much time to do what you want and you might need the time to learn who you are.
:).
.sig and they will actually mean something to someone because you will know what you are doing.
If you already know who you are and what you want to do, do it and decide later whether you also want a degree. You can always go to college later, maybe in the evening (although being a sysadmin might make it difficult to get evenings off - depends on how stable your systems are
Certifications come second to experience IMO. You need to understand how systems work before you are taught "the Microsoft way" in a classroom. Learn the command prompt on every platform you use - and use all of them that you can.
Then you can get those nice shiny credentials in your
This goes double for application developers. If you get a solid education first, you will have NO problem picking up any technology out there. I do interviews for my consulting firm, and guess what? The guys who stay current the most tend to be the ones who finished a higher education degree. We're not prejudiced against the ones who have experience only and no degree. But it just happens to be that the ones we most often hire are the ones who finished their degrees. If you finish the degree, you're typically made of sterner stuff than the guy who went for the $$$ right away. Most every employer I've dealt with sees it that way too.
Good luck...
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
Oh BTW by BS I mean bullsh**t, not Bachelors.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
Degree: N, Experience: X, SocialSecurity#: N - Janitor, cleaner
Degree: Y, Experience: Y, SocialSecurity#: N - H1B coder
Degree: N, Experience: N, SocialSecurity#: Y - Welfare
Degree: N, Experience: Y, SocialSecurity#: Y - good job with companies whose HR values experience (current market)
Degree: Y, Experience: N, SocialSecurity#: Y - welfare, even if you're a CMU/Berkeley/MIT grad
Degree: Y, Experience: Y, SocialSecurity#: Y - welfare (in the current market), unless you have heaps of experience and a 4-year degree in which case junior sysadmin. Programming, even junior programmer is closed in this market. Wait 5 years and try again. Think grads with experience can't be on welfare? In the current market, guess again. Sorry to bring you back to reality dude
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
I'm posting this in class at the best engineering school in Canada and I can tell you one of the best things about the program is the work experience. Through school I get to learn the stuff you won't get in the field like the queuing theory and probability behind networks and all that. Through work I get to drop the academics and get my hands on racks of switches, routers and servers. There are always lots of jobs for sysadmins (at least the 4+ years I've been here) and you get to learn a lot, move between companies and advance (quickly!) in position and pay.
Look to a co-op university, it's the best of both.
DataSquid.net, a little about me.
It wasn't until I got the job I've got now that I realized what sysadmins really do. Sysadmins don't just keep the servers stable and build new ones. They don't just change lost passwords and nuke the accounts of low-life spammers. I could have done all that when I didn't have any experience in sysadminning at all.
Sysadmins make work go away. We automate things. We make paperwork a thing of the past. We make it so that the damn secretary can change account passwords and nuke accounts. We make managing information a breeze, not a chore. We make billing and accounting the job of one person, not ten. We are modern day wizards who work magic for hire. The systems we use aren't the reason for our existance, they are the actuators of our magic.
And what happens when all the work gets automated away? We keep automating. Making it easier, faster, better. We make it more reliable, more secure, more redundant. If all a sysadmin does is wait for something to fail, then he's either not a sysadmin, or he's not doing his job. And then he wonders why managment scrutinizes his salary and lays him off at the first chance they get.
I highly recommend that anyone considering a career as a sysadmin, should at least once get a job where either there's never been a sysadmin (and thus they have huge mounds of paperwork somewhere that need to be done away with) or get a job on the ground floor where everything needs to be started from scratch. Maybe someday, when everything is perfect and runs itself, you can strike a deal with your boss where you can work on call with a retainer or something, (after all, even though you're doing nothing now, you're the only one that knows anything about how it all works) and move on to the next job - ensuring that you're getting paid more than your boss thinks you are. After a few years, you would probably be able to make a living off the part-time stuff.
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
You work at a surviving startup who is trying to save money by hiring people with a less credentials than many people in the market posess. If you continue to survive you will spend alot of money maintaining your codebase, if you have large programming projects.
This thread is long since dead, but i wanted to point out that that is incorrect: I dont attempt to hire lower-credential people. Its just that ive observed firsthand an inverse correlation between education and skill. Also, from what I can glean the pays are above average (competitive industry sector for employees).
Also, code is art. There is no one right way to do it, there are many disparate ways to solve a problem, and alot of it comes down to personal style. (alot of "engineering" is like this as well). Its art because it is design work, which requires creativity.
A couple hundred posts from other wise Slashdotters will tell you why to go to college to better your career. It will make you more attractive to employers, yada yada yada.
My advice - go to college. But for these reasons:
1. Beer parties
2. Doing stupid shit with people you barely know
3. Road trips
4. Sororities (no, not being in them)
5. Girls exploring their female assertiveness
6. An excuse for lousy clothes (I'm a student)
7. Student discounts for another 4+ years
8. Awesome buddies that will be different from those you made in high school
9. A happier mom