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Which IT Certifications for Specific IT Jobs?
outlander78 asks: "There have been several questions posted recently (Landing a job, College or Career? to list a few) discussing education and job searching. I have just completed a BSc Computer Science, and have 2 years of co-op experience. This is apparently not enough, as I have yet to get a single interview, despite many carefully written letters and resume submissions to job postings. I read here that a degree with certifications was a good combination, so now I need to know - which certifications are best for job seekers? Whether I work as programmer, sys admin or something else isn't an issue, since I need any job at this point, and enjoy most computer-related jobs - please, suggest whatever certifications you are hiring for or were hired because of."
The supply of tech professionals for operations, non-development, is far outpaced by the demand. Right now it is simply a buyer's market. What does that mean for folks who hire:
1) We can demand experience. We don't have to take the time to train someone and get them up to speed.
2) We don't have to offer the salaries and benefits we did two years ago.
3) Certifications aren't as valuable as they once were. The last boom in certifications was the Cisco program and that has stagnated as the technology and programs have become entrenched. It's all cyclical with certification programs anyway. You have to be in at the beginning to reap the benefits.
The other fact you need to face is the best way to secure employment is not through classifieds and monster.com, but personal contact with people in the field. Join user groups, go to vendor tech demos and start meeting people.
Good luck.
get an interview but will not get you a job. The answer to your question is that you need certs for which you have experience and which you can back up with knowledge that goes above and beyond what is needed to get the cert. Also you need to know who is hiring in your area. For example to get my current job I had a lot of experience with firewalls in general and I know a firm in my area which has *very* good reasons to be paranoid where hiring a networking guy. I also have a bunch of networking experience. I found out through a friend that they use Checkpoint based firewalls. So I downloaded a Checkpoint demo got a book spent some time on it and got a CCSA. Combined with my background that set me apart from the crowd enough to get the job. :) Do your homework and try to do something you have a good background in and it should work. Also just a note a good recuriter is worth their weight in gold. Many will say I'm wrong and YMMV but recuriters have worked wonders for me.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
Your real problem is that the economy is in the tank, so you are competing with people with at least as much education and more experience. This happened to me back in '91 when I finished by B.S.
Keep at it, you'll find something eventually.
I'm getting very tired of certifications. I know too many "certified" people who have NO EXPERIENCE! They know all about how it's supposed to work, but can't fix it when it breaks. I'm tired of it! Get me somebody who has a true interest in computing, not just paper credentials and making money.
Ouch! The truth hurts!
Depending on where you live, nothing you do will make a bit of difference. No internship or certification can compete with someone with years of experience forced into an entry level job to pay the mortgage.
What can I say, recessions suck. The only thing worse is recessions that politicians are bending over backwards to deny exist. (E.g., our governor says that we're past the worst of it, the economy is picking up... and a few pages into the paper the person in charge of the unemployment compensation/job matching agency admits that they're still overwhelmed by the unprecedented demand from thousands of people new to the system.)
P.S., I started out in similar (but localized) conditions. A major employer announced massive layoffs, and suddenly I was competing against people with years of experience. I found a job at about 2/3 of what I was discussing weeks earlier, and the entire organization was pathological. But it was a job and where they saw me putting in lots of unpaid overtime, I saw squeezing a year of experience into 6 months. Just keep repeating "this too shall pass."
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
To the extent that certifications act as a marker for a person's curosity, desire to learn, and humbleness in the face of the unknown, I will take them into account. However, I would rather have an English Lit major with zero technical background who can solve an unfamiliar problem from scratch than a 3 month/employer guy with a bag full of paper certifications.
To the extent that I consider certifications at all, I will look in order at Cisco certs (past the CNA), Novell CNE or Master CNE, Pine Mountain Group network analyst certs, a broad background in Unix, and of course any professional engineer certs.
But for what kind of job, you ask? Remember, I don't match up specific certs to my current position needs. I have never seen a person with a deep knowledge of Netware have any problem picking up what he needs to know about NT, but I have certainly seen the person with 38 Microsoft certs be unable to figure out how to configure a 2-router Cisco network.
My 0.02.
sPh
I'd recommend at the least a BS in CS, oh, and wear a clean shirt, minimal face piercings, tasteful haircut, use of mouthwash and leaving your ego at the door for any interviews. It is a buyers market and that means you've got to be on your best behavior, since you can bet others will go so far as to wear a tie to get the job. 1999 was like last century, ok?
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Seriously -- A certificate only tells me what questions to start asking. It's sort of like that college question a few days ago: I don't want people who know things; I want people who can think and learn things.
You might be better off spending some time studying on your own and doing a free project of some sort for a local charity or school. It's something you can put on your resume and build up a bit rather than just one line of questionable value... and good for the community as well.
Statistically, 10% of hirings are initiated with blind mailings. The rest all begin with networking. So when you are looking for a job, spend 10% of your time revising your resume and sending it to good targets, and spend the rest of the time following down leads in your personal network.
This is how I landed a job at a major Fortune 500 corporation. Basically, I had administered a high-latency gigabit-class network of Mac III's in school in the late 80's. This was top-of-the-line research stuff back then, though it sure looks antique today. Long story short, my vice admin's older brother married the daughter of a major figure in the Juarez prawn industry, and I got my foot in the door. Now I'm pulling 7 figures with a staff of 72, with nowhere to go but up. So all those guys you sorta got along with in school? Keep the numbers, man. Even when you land a job, you never know when you'll be looking again.
Good luck.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
Or did somebody change the date for the monthly /.?
'which cert' question on
Anonymous posts are filtered.
Is that the big bulletin board with the pictures of people and things from the CS department? ;-)
T
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
My boss recently hired someone here, and he was saying that while the candidates seemed eager, very few asked good questions or showed a lot of specific interest in this position. I think, like you, they wanted any job they could get. This attitude didn't really impress him.
The lesson, I think, is that you absolutely have to sound like you want this job, not any job. They're not going to hire you if they think you will immediately leave when you find something you like better, etc.
I'm not saying you necessarily showed this attitude in the actual interviews, but it's something to watch.
The best certification is validation by your peers. Locally attend small conferences, users groups, etc... get to know people in the field in your area, make your skills and understanding known. You might find a job directly through contact like that. At the least, you might make freinds with people with respectable established careers that you can use as references for employers to call and hear the good word about you.
Don't forget the on-line equivalent of this too - participate in technical newsgroups and mailing lists, help out with opensource projects, etc...
11*43+456^2
To tell you the truth, you need to go out and market yourself. Listen to what I did. I worked for a company that Cisco Systems outsourced to making 10 bucks an hour. The waiting list was about 1 yr to get on a tech team. All I did was route calls for so-called IT professionals.
Most of the calls I took the pros on the other end were less knowledgable than me on many subjects. I was so sick of doing it that I started sending out resumes to those companies. NO LUCK. They didn't care if I knew more or had more certs. They didn't even want to see me.
I went out and started up a small business in my neighborhood about a year ago, just fixing computers and doing home networking. That got my foot in the door. I went on the street hawking my wares to small offices, law offices, insurance agents, real estate offices and so forth.
Word got around and I got a couple of support contracts with med-sized businesses doing sys admin on their boxes. Real simple stuff that anyone could do. It's called comparative advantage. Now I've got a couple of contracts, and I'm negotiating a contract with a local general contractor to pull cable for new construction at 2500 a house. I have a pager and a cell and I make my own hours.
By the way--I'm 25 with 2yrs of college education. Comp Sci is not my major, nor ever was. But this helps with school a lot, and I have a family to feed. The only certs I have are A+ and my CCNA. I don't plan on doing this beyond graduation, but it's always a handy thing to have on your resume.
One last warning and advice. Warning. Insure yourself for about 1,000,000 per claim: the more certs and education you have, the cheaper insurance is. I pay about 2000/yr on prof. liability. Advice, join a professional association. You can network a lot and land tons of gigs. It worked for me.
http://cincyboys.blogspot.com/ Everything Cincinnati. Including the word 'Finnih'
A BSc in Comp. Sci. and some co-op experience sounds more than enough to get your foot in the door (entry-level). Are you sure you are applying for the appropriate job? Perhaps you'll need to start lower than you want due to the sluggish economy? Since you are willing to work at any job, I would make sure that you aren't overlooking some of the lower end work (for the time being anyway) -- sys admin hopefully requires more experience than you have :) Likewise, look for "junior" positions as well. Look at non-tech companies that have tech needs (banks and insurance and investment companies for example).
:) of demonstrating over time that they are keeping pace with current technologies.
I don't think certificates early in one's career are that beneficial since it starts looking like you are just too obviously trying to make up for lack of real-world experience by overloading your resume with these certificates. Certificates, in my opinion, are good ways for senior practicioners (i.e. those over 25
Also, some people may use certificates to help with transitioning from a different career into tech (since going back to school is not an option).
My opinion: don't worry about the certificate issue and start doing a broader search for entry level tech positions.
** Also, it is hard for anyone to know WHY you didn't get an interview if we don't know exactly what your resume and cover letter contain and for what position you applied. You may just have a goofy sounding cover letter or weak resume.
Worse comes to worse, you can always do tech sales (I guarantee you can get a job there) -- man that phone boy!!!
To quote a CNN article:
"the most talented student will always have options."
Right now, the market is tight for programmers. This is no longer the field that anyone can get a degree in and automatically make 60K+ out of school. So, if you just got the degree because it was the hot thing to do, then your screwed.
If you really have a passion for computers though, then you will find that the market is still there. You just need to seperate yourself from everyone else. Forget certifications, that shows little self-direction, instead why don't you spend that effort developing a piece of open source software.
Write a piece of useful software that showcases your skills. Given the ability most folks have right out of college, this will definitely show that your worth hiring.
Or, if you can, take some time to really strengthen your skills. Companies are always hiring *good* programmers, regardless of the economy. Taking 6 months to study all the industry bibles (the GoF book, the Myers books, etc.) and learn the stuff that is actually useful in the real world. Do this instead of putzing around for 6 months looking at getting certs or drinking every night and you'll land a good job.
int func(int a);
func((b += 3, b));
As much as it sucks, certs aren't the answer. Speaking with a hea dhunter recently he did say companies care much more about certs now than they did a year ago - but that is because they can. There is a fairly large, experienced pool of talent out there.
Getting certs, however, is a very expensive proposition for osmeone currently unemployed. A typical test can now cost aroun $500, so accumulating a list of certs is not really an option.
Deciding WHAT you want to do is the first step. You might consider doing anything if the opportunity comes along, but in terms of getting certs you need ot focus more (unless you have more moneyt than you know what to do with, in which case why do you need a job so bad?). This means, yes, making a decision about your future. Youare free ot change it down the line, but you do have to choose - sysadmin/netadmin, development, dba, etc
After you figure what you want get experience doing it. The portfolio is becoming a tool of the unemployed developer. Showing first rate code that you have written, along with unit tests, use cases/user stories, UML diagrams etc make syou look better. Really, if you have littl eprofessional experience it is the best thing you can do to look good for a "walk in" interview.
Choose the direction you would like to steer and start a project, or get in on a starting project. Don't dive into an established open-source project. They might appreciate the help, but your goal here is to have somethign to show that YOU can claim 100% credit for. Comntributing bug fixes to gcc won't do that for you, though it might feel good.
The seoncd thing is become involved in the local development community. You might laugh, but this is possible. Hit Yahoo Group and search for any group in your area related for what you are doing. Make an emeail account that can accumulate spam, and sign up. Talk to people. Networking (people, not CCNA) is still the best way to find a job, period.
Only then, consider getting a cert or two. The ones I have seen being respected are the Sun Java developer certs (okay, JCP is sorta laughable, but the larger ones get nods), Cisco certs are respected, and Oracle certs are respected. Certs are no substitute for experience, unfortunately. Human resources may not realize this, but the hiring manager will.
FInally, find someone who IS a professional developer, who has undergone many code reviews, who knows how the system works in a decent shop and ask if they will review your code and designs. Buy them beer, coffee, crack, whatever it takes. When it comes down to the decision - your skill will determine your success. THis includes skill in talking the talk - and the only way to do that correctly is to really learn it. Most good developers are willing to help new people, it is flattering. There are various systems to try to make this easier via the net. In my experience these are not nearly as good as meeting someone via the aforementioned networking and offering to buy them a beer in exchange for picking their brain. While buying em a beer, slip in that you would really like if they could do somehting like a formal code review of your stuff - afterall, it is the only way to really improve.
Finally, read lots of code. Figure out how it works. Look at systems and make sur eyou understand em. A *great*, though boring as hell, way to do this is to write API docs for good projects. Do not contribute directly to them yet - your time is better spent building things you can claim redit for. Let's say you are into Java development, run by the Apache project and submit improved API docs. No one likes writing em, but to do it well you NEED to understand what the code does.
That, and know that you have my sympathies. The hiring market sucks right now.
-Frums
The CCIE seems to be the one of the few certifications that, on it's own, will land you a job. Most certifications make you look a little better, but don't really mean jack against real world experience. The value of the cert is proportional to demand for the skills and the availability of those skills in the job market. For example, MCSE is in demand, but there are so many of them that it's not as valuable. CCIE's are in demand, but because it's hard to get the cert and expensive, it means the supply is still relatively low (at least last time I checked).
What I might suggest to you is simply get a list of a bunch of certifications and do searches on the various job sites to see how many hits you get, etc. That should give you a rough approximation of where the demand is. Also, maybe find a good technical recruiter and see what they recommend as the hot demand right now.
One bit of advice for you though is that I would put some careful thought into which direction you choose, be it programmer, admin, etc. A few years down the line you can change jobs, but if you do so you'll be very little better off than you are now due to the lack of relevant work experience in the new area. Tech jobs seem to seek people with very specific skill sets, and care less about general experience.
A friend of mine got into sysadmining but would much prefer being a developer now. Of course now if he was to try to go back and be a developer he'd have to take a substantial cut in pay. So if you might change your mind later, just be aware of this little trap and plan for it (save up some money, maybe do some side work in some open source projects, etc, just to keep your skills honed).
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Unfortunately, there are usually 2 orthogonal stages to being hired. First, your resume has to get past HR (Human Resources). They typically know nothing about the job beyond the half-page writeup.
:) that you can actually talk to someone about what is really involved, and sell yourself.
:)
So if it says "wants 5 yr experience with C", well, if you don't have '5 years experience with C' listed on your resume, you won't get forwarded on. Even if your name is Richie and you list '10 yrs C++' becuas you wanted to focus on recent accomplishments.
It's only after getting past HR (and perhaps a PHB
Certs are only useful for the HR stage, but that's a killer cutoff. I've recommended folks for jobs I wrote the spec for, only to have HR bump them because they were missing a buzzword.
Good luck! List everything, be concise
A.
I expect a lot of people will weigh in on certifications, and the arguments for and against are pretty widely known. Here is what I understand:
1)the vendor certifications (Microsoft, Oracle, etc) have some marketability, but the courses and related material are overpriced. So are the predictions of median incomes that certified people enjoy.
2)it is impossible for certifications to measure the ability to program, to think creatively or to solve problems. However, they do measure in a rough way one's familiarity with an application/OS's mechanisms to accomplish tasks.
3)Aside from Microsoft, Oracle and Cisco, employers have usually never heard of
the certification you have.
4) Employers are impressed about certifications when it is hard to measure competence. It is a third-party objective criteria. What impresses them is that you took the initiative, that you had to study for some test. That's different from just sitting at a seminar and passively absorbing information.
5). Despite what people say, "paper certifications" and "paper mills" are not worthless. The problem with IT institutes is that no training program can cover the variety of problems and administrative functions that one encounters on the job. On the other hand, they do a good job of exposing you to some of the basic tasks.
6)The problem with "paper certifications" (especially vendor-sponsored ones) is that to pass them you need to learn skills specific to the application or OS. That puts the onus of chasing after skills (and paying for them) entirely on the job seeker. And surely by the time you pass one certification, you'll hear about another one that is the next best thing. You need to ask yourself, "why I am spending time immersing myself in vendor-specific information when I should be learning more general things: protocols, network architecture and programming theory and algorithms.
7)Certifications do matter in my own field: technical writing and training. They indicate some familiarity with a particular domain of learning.
8)If you seek a certification, seek it only because you find the subject in and of itself to be interesting. I sought the LPI 1 certification because I needed to know these concepts anyway and the certification provided a structure and path for learning the material. Right now, I am pursuing another certification, the Master CIW Administrator
certification. I'm not sure employers will even know what this certification is, but I know that the subjects on the certifications: network security, ip6 and unix/windows interoperability are things I would be learning anyway.
9)If you do seek certification, don't spend more than $100 on study material. There are hundreds of sites and forums that provide good study guides and practice tests for free. You'll also enjoy sharing in the learning and studying experience. My favorite is Exam Notes
Robert Nagle, Idiotprogrammer, Houston
SAGE, the Systems Administrators Guild has a junior-to-mid-level professional certification for systems administrators now, called cSAGE.
Unlike vendor/product certifications, this cert is designed to assess your ability to perform in an IT role -- namely, systems administrator -- rather than your ability to memorize features and functions of a particular product. It tests troubleshooting skill, background knowledge of process and procedure, and general junior-to-mid-level sysadmin proficiency, both in general and specific to Unix (they're working on a Windows module and several other, higher-level "merit badge" modules).
.@.
(emphasis added by me)
(and so on)
Perhaps while you're at college, you might consider taking some non-Engineering courses. Learn to spell, use proper grammar. Become a well-rounded individual. Learn to communicate concepts and ideas effectively. From all indications, while you may be one of those "people that do know computers for real," you're not a very appealing employment candidate due to your poor communication skills. Then again, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "know computers for real," since if you're not getting good grades in your CS classes, how much can you really know about CS? (Computer Science != just computers. there's a metric pantload of theory and algorithms to learn. It doesn't matter if you're the fastest linux installer in the West, if you don't learn that theory you'll never be able to call yourself a Computer Scientist, regardless of what your degree eventually says.)
College is about more than just hunkering down and focusing strictly on your one chosen subject. Sure, there's a time and place for that, but as long as you're going to be there for 4+ years (milk another year or two out of the parents while the economy's in the pooper), you may as well take some time and attend some interesting classes that will grow your knowledge in other directions than just computers computers computers.
If you KNOW your stuff, you can write your ticket.
But asking "what certs will help?" Shows one thing - you don't.
That is harsh. I know. I from the other end of 20+ years of experience, with no degree, no certs AND DO NOT WANT THEM.
All certs prove is that you can read a manual and type answers. You too could be MENSA, same entrance exam, and same benfits (none).
The only proof is showing your skills, that means taking over the interview controling thier attention, showing you have some thing to provide.
But the orginal writer said that he got a CS degree and can not code, then what good is it? Why not have history degree instead? Gives you the same advange, in the tech world.
Remember, tech breaks down to operators and designers.
If you can not code, design a database (500+ tables) or build a network (1000+ seats in multiple locations) then you are an operator.
There is a lot of operators out there. That is what is a buyers market.
Contrast that to when I entered college (1997-98ish) and you can see we've slipped quite a bit -- companies were *soo* desperate for CS people that they would *pay your last year of college*. A buddy of mine graduated in 1997 as a CS/EE dbl and got picked up for 80k/yr by Sun to start. Now a *great* job is 45/yr.
The good news is it will pick up soon enuf.
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
One of my interview questions is "What is your greatest technical achievement?" If your answer to that question has anything to do with certifications, I will throw you out into the street.
I don't recall ever being critically intersted in an applicant's certifications, and when I am, I can consult their resume. I want to know if you can do the job.
the SAGE junior-to-mid-level systems administrator cert, cSAGE.
.@.
Slightly different field, same concept.
;-)
I have worked for the same Defense Contractor in the DC area since 1994. Graduated then with a BS Finance and some low level military experience (well, I did work in a Major Subordinate Command as a Captain for a while as a Reservist).
Anyway, this part will be easier now than it was in 1994:
1. Get classifieds from newspapers (or search web classified of newspapers) in the regions that you think there may be work or where you want to move to. I graduated from utk.edu and there was not much in town, so I got the sunday Washington Post every tues or so and copied the fax and e-mail addresses for every defense related job I could find, then sent resume and cover letter to each. Not many back then, but at least this breaks you away from the monster.com masses today too.
2. Always tell them you will be in the area for a couple of days the following week, i.e., if you send to Chicago today say you will be there Tues - Thurs next week. This gets you past many of the "out of town apps" that get trashed, also, since you are responding to the newspaper ad it gives the illusion that you actually give a crap about that city
3. When you start getting responses, plan your travel to do several interviews at once. If you get one interview in Chicago this week, but 2 in NYC next week and another in Chicago the week after, try to get one of the Chicago ones moved.
May not help, but I hope it does. Sofar what I have seen on this article is "I don't have a cert and you don't either" or "I have a cert and so do you". Seems you have a good enough education, just need to use a different guerilla method to get some interviews.
BTW, you ARE AVAILABLE IMMEDIATELY and leave every possible way to contact you that you know of (your phone, parents, cell, fax (I know but they are still in use), e-mail, snail mail, EVERYTHING!
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
With that out of the way, what about non-profits? Most of these need general computer assistance, but don't really know what to ask for. Someone with basic tech knowledge could make a real difference.
In fact, if you like open source software, you could help the revolution along:
- Get a general tech job at a non-profit, hopefully one working with disadvantaged people with low educational skills
- Help convert old computers to Linux systems so that they can still be used to some capacity.
- Start modifying interfaces for the needs of co-workers and the people they help. Make a real-world usability lab that works!
- Become famous as the guy who put Linux on the desktop ("He made it so that even high-school dropouts could use it!")
- Spend the rest of your life sipping champagne and eating caviar with Linus.
Now, isn't that more exciting than working with Cisco routers all day, Mr. CCIE?Now is absolutely not a good time for a recent grad to be looking for a job. This is especially true since every company that normally hires new-grads has likely already filled their positions. It is the end of May, after all.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
There are some things that you can do to help get a CS job -- you're on the right track, more/less with the idea of getting some more education. I don't think that the actual certification is worth much more than a statement of "I have some initiative," though. I certainly don't pay much attention to it when I interview candidates.
As previously pointed out, it's a buyers market, and so those companies that do have jobs are going to have their choice of people. Frankly, the fact that you don't have a job now is a strike against getting one soon -- there's a hidden bias that says "Well, nobody's wanted him yet. Should I take a chance?"
Things to do? Find a small handful of companies who have hired your friends, and who are either hiring now, or will be soon. Learn as much as you possibly can about the company and their products. That way, when you do get an interview, you'll be able to talk intelligently -- that, by itself, can wow them.
Don't stay unemployed -- find something else to do related to your field. Write open-source software to create a name for yourself (and learn something in the process); go back to grad school and wait the job market out; Travel -- at least when they ask 'why is he still unemployed,' the answer can be 'he was backpacking across Europe', and not 'he was being turned down by 30 other companies.'
Speaking as someone who has been involved in hiring in the IT area, please have someone check your resume! The quality of resumes I've reviewed, even from the ostensibly english speaking, has been dreadful. I'm not just referring to por speling and; gramatical misteaks, but logical construction and effective use of the language are sorely lacking.
If you don't have any friends involved in the hiring process who can take a look at your resume and cover letter, at least have some of your more verbally able classmates go over them. Your college's career center may also be of help.
Yours truly,
Jeffrey Boulier
If you have a BS in comp sci you should be able to understand the basics of engineering (you did take science classes right and didn't just take humanities?). You may have to take some undergrad classes but if you get your ms in engineering in some form you have more flexibility with your job choices.
get a ms in ME or civil or EE or chemE. there are always jobs in those areas besides IT.
when the job market is low, you aren't missing much, might as well get a masters which is more valuable in the long term than some certificaton since your masters NEVER EXPIRES, heck its something you put after your name!
Bring back the old version of slashdot.