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Which IT Certifications for Specific IT Jobs?
outlander78 asks: "There have been several questions posted recently (Landing a job, College or Career? to list a few) discussing education and job searching. I have just completed a BSc Computer Science, and have 2 years of co-op experience. This is apparently not enough, as I have yet to get a single interview, despite many carefully written letters and resume submissions to job postings. I read here that a degree with certifications was a good combination, so now I need to know - which certifications are best for job seekers? Whether I work as programmer, sys admin or something else isn't an issue, since I need any job at this point, and enjoy most computer-related jobs - please, suggest whatever certifications you are hiring for or were hired because of."
The supply of tech professionals for operations, non-development, is far outpaced by the demand. Right now it is simply a buyer's market. What does that mean for folks who hire:
1) We can demand experience. We don't have to take the time to train someone and get them up to speed.
2) We don't have to offer the salaries and benefits we did two years ago.
3) Certifications aren't as valuable as they once were. The last boom in certifications was the Cisco program and that has stagnated as the technology and programs have become entrenched. It's all cyclical with certification programs anyway. You have to be in at the beginning to reap the benefits.
The other fact you need to face is the best way to secure employment is not through classifieds and monster.com, but personal contact with people in the field. Join user groups, go to vendor tech demos and start meeting people.
Good luck.
Heh, certs arnt the way to go, and unfortunatly the best recomendation i have for you is experiance. Ive been in the field for 8 years now doing this and that (Programming, Sys admin, Consulting, Helldesk, etc...) and have found that nothing beats time under your belt. I only have 2 of my 4 years finished for my BSCS, and i only have one cert (Stupid aironet wireless engineer before they were bought out by cisco) so certs and school arnt the only things that employers are looking for. Know your shit, and know it well and all will be good :)
I will bend your mind with my spoon
I don't think I've ever been asked for any certifications during interviews. I haven't seen many job postings in which certification was even mentioned, much less required. This was all sysadmin work.
Maybe you should just work on your resume a little more?
- A.P.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
get an interview but will not get you a job. The answer to your question is that you need certs for which you have experience and which you can back up with knowledge that goes above and beyond what is needed to get the cert. Also you need to know who is hiring in your area. For example to get my current job I had a lot of experience with firewalls in general and I know a firm in my area which has *very* good reasons to be paranoid where hiring a networking guy. I also have a bunch of networking experience. I found out through a friend that they use Checkpoint based firewalls. So I downloaded a Checkpoint demo got a book spent some time on it and got a CCSA. Combined with my background that set me apart from the crowd enough to get the job. :) Do your homework and try to do something you have a good background in and it should work. Also just a note a good recuriter is worth their weight in gold. Many will say I'm wrong and YMMV but recuriters have worked wonders for me.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
Your real problem is that the economy is in the tank, so you are competing with people with at least as much education and more experience. This happened to me back in '91 when I finished by B.S.
Keep at it, you'll find something eventually.
Most IT certifications are manufacturer specific, meaning if you work with Cisco gear you get the Cisco certs. Very few cover an idea or a broad technology. So, a Network Engineer would get the Cisco cert since they use the equipment.
The problem is that people run out and get these certs without ever using the software/equipment and expect to get hired using it. It doesn't work that way. You get experience some where and then get the cert to expand on it. Experience first, then certs. A Cisco cert without router time is worthless.
I'm getting very tired of certifications. I know too many "certified" people who have NO EXPERIENCE! They know all about how it's supposed to work, but can't fix it when it breaks. I'm tired of it! Get me somebody who has a true interest in computing, not just paper credentials and making money.
Ouch! The truth hurts!
The demand for certs in the industry just shows me how ignorant the industry is. You don't know how many job postings I see asking for certs that don't even exist, like the one I saw the other day wishing to hire a Cisco Certified Systems Engineer(I kid you not). I also can't stand seeing job offers that would rather have a college degree than any experience. We just hired an MIS graduate as a network tech that had to be shown the difference between a router and switch on his first day.
If you want to know what certs will really help you, get your CCNA, the new Cisco cert that covers voice over IP, some project planning cert, and maybe pursue your Six Sigma belts if you're in the high level industry.
Hope this helped.
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
i don't really have a comment about the certifications...cause i don't really have any myself...although any Java 2 certifications look pretty good (atleast in the line of software consulting that i do)...
in any case, the job market right now sucks, (especially for tech people), and has sucked since late 2001...when i was searching for a job my senior year of college (2001-02) i saw the end of the boom where computer science majors could write their own blank check right away out of school...actually, early in my senior year i signed on with an internet consulting company in nyc for $70K...nice...atleast i thought so...as 2002, came, the economy was even more in the down turn, and a lot of companies started revoking their offers to college graduates (including mine)...so, to make a long story short, i graduated without a job...i ended up having to take an internship with a smaller software consulting company for the summer...but they eventually hired me in Septmber, and i enjoy my job very much...
i guess my point is not to worry if you don't have a job right away...the job climate sucks right now...but computers and the internet aren't going anywhere (duh)...
in any case, it's better to not have a job and be able to look for work, then to sign on with a company and have them keep pushing back their start date...i have friends from school who graduated with me in june of 2001 and went to work with big consulting companies like Accenture...they just recently (Jan or Feb) started...true, Accenture did throw them a little bit of money before hand, but i had a good 6 or 7 months of work experience in before they even started...
"Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true." - Homer Simpson
Depending on where you live, nothing you do will make a bit of difference. No internship or certification can compete with someone with years of experience forced into an entry level job to pay the mortgage.
What can I say, recessions suck. The only thing worse is recessions that politicians are bending over backwards to deny exist. (E.g., our governor says that we're past the worst of it, the economy is picking up... and a few pages into the paper the person in charge of the unemployment compensation/job matching agency admits that they're still overwhelmed by the unprecedented demand from thousands of people new to the system.)
P.S., I started out in similar (but localized) conditions. A major employer announced massive layoffs, and suddenly I was competing against people with years of experience. I found a job at about 2/3 of what I was discussing weeks earlier, and the entire organization was pathological. But it was a job and where they saw me putting in lots of unpaid overtime, I saw squeezing a year of experience into 6 months. Just keep repeating "this too shall pass."
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
To the extent that certifications act as a marker for a person's curosity, desire to learn, and humbleness in the face of the unknown, I will take them into account. However, I would rather have an English Lit major with zero technical background who can solve an unfamiliar problem from scratch than a 3 month/employer guy with a bag full of paper certifications.
To the extent that I consider certifications at all, I will look in order at Cisco certs (past the CNA), Novell CNE or Master CNE, Pine Mountain Group network analyst certs, a broad background in Unix, and of course any professional engineer certs.
But for what kind of job, you ask? Remember, I don't match up specific certs to my current position needs. I have never seen a person with a deep knowledge of Netware have any problem picking up what he needs to know about NT, but I have certainly seen the person with 38 Microsoft certs be unable to figure out how to configure a 2-router Cisco network.
My 0.02.
sPh
...for you would be:
1) Look at your (2 yrs coop) experience and what products/technologies you learned and/or liked.
2) Find a certification exam or exam "track" based upon those products/techs and get started.
For me to become an design level enterprise infrastructure consultant and instructor for the MS platform, it was appropriate to get my MCSE and MCT certs. I also find that some people do not need formal class training; self study can suffice (books, etc).
this is a left handed sig
I guess I have been really lucky.
I landed a job before I finished Polytech, (when I was an Electronics Tech), I then managaed to get a low level Linux/NT admin role for a small company. Moving on from there has been the hard part. I have done Linux cert, and have started a BSc and found it really hard to get the position I am about to move into. This was gained by knowing people on the inside.
From personal experience Oracle is probably the best industry cert in terms of "employability". I can't say what the certification is like I have never done it.
On another note a friend was having a similar problem just recently. Finished degree, and couldn't get a job. He was on a benefit and the NZ Govt. paid for his J2EE cert that he did while on the benefit. Landed a job not long after.
If you want a job do the one with the most industry cred and later do the one you enjoy. Please the employer to get the foot in, then work towards doing what you enjoy.
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A fairly good overview/jump point for the major certifications is here and some info about how much they add to your paycheck is here...
Seriously -- A certificate only tells me what questions to start asking. It's sort of like that college question a few days ago: I don't want people who know things; I want people who can think and learn things.
You might be better off spending some time studying on your own and doing a free project of some sort for a local charity or school. It's something you can put on your resume and build up a bit rather than just one line of questionable value... and good for the community as well.
Statistically, 10% of hirings are initiated with blind mailings. The rest all begin with networking. So when you are looking for a job, spend 10% of your time revising your resume and sending it to good targets, and spend the rest of the time following down leads in your personal network.
This is how I landed a job at a major Fortune 500 corporation. Basically, I had administered a high-latency gigabit-class network of Mac III's in school in the late 80's. This was top-of-the-line research stuff back then, though it sure looks antique today. Long story short, my vice admin's older brother married the daughter of a major figure in the Juarez prawn industry, and I got my foot in the door. Now I'm pulling 7 figures with a staff of 72, with nowhere to go but up. So all those guys you sorta got along with in school? Keep the numbers, man. Even when you land a job, you never know when you'll be looking again.
Good luck.
Karma: Good (despite my invention of the Karma: sig)
Your problem can be summarized in three words:
The Economy Sucks.
More experienced, more certified, more desperate (i.e. supporting families) people are having a hard time finding IT jobs right now.
Another post suggests moving your location. Do some research and figure out where there's a relative lack of demand and target that area. Or live in your parents basement.
Or did somebody change the date for the monthly /.?
'which cert' question on
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Is that the big bulletin board with the pictures of people and things from the CS department? ;-)
T
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
Right now it doesn't seem to mean a lot to employers if you're certified or not. All they want is experience. I also just graduated with a BS in Comp Sci, have 5 years of internship experience with a real business, and I have yet to get even a single interview set up. My currently employer even has me on a temporary basis until they can decide to start hiring again for full-time positions.
Back to the topic, I don't think the certification is that important, or at least not as much as it was in years past. I remember there was a demand for it, mainly since the experienced workers were employed, and the ones seeking jobs were a bit too green. Now the experienced people are the ones in the job market, and the focus is on years of real work, not the number of certificates saying you think you know how things are supposed to work. And since there's no way to know when certification will be a hiring point again, there's no reason to spend time and money to get certified for technology that may be dead by that time.
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.
My boss recently hired someone here, and he was saying that while the candidates seemed eager, very few asked good questions or showed a lot of specific interest in this position. I think, like you, they wanted any job they could get. This attitude didn't really impress him.
The lesson, I think, is that you absolutely have to sound like you want this job, not any job. They're not going to hire you if they think you will immediately leave when you find something you like better, etc.
I'm not saying you necessarily showed this attitude in the actual interviews, but it's something to watch.
The best certification is validation by your peers. Locally attend small conferences, users groups, etc... get to know people in the field in your area, make your skills and understanding known. You might find a job directly through contact like that. At the least, you might make freinds with people with respectable established careers that you can use as references for employers to call and hear the good word about you.
Don't forget the on-line equivalent of this too - participate in technical newsgroups and mailing lists, help out with opensource projects, etc...
11*43+456^2
To tell you the truth, you need to go out and market yourself. Listen to what I did. I worked for a company that Cisco Systems outsourced to making 10 bucks an hour. The waiting list was about 1 yr to get on a tech team. All I did was route calls for so-called IT professionals.
Most of the calls I took the pros on the other end were less knowledgable than me on many subjects. I was so sick of doing it that I started sending out resumes to those companies. NO LUCK. They didn't care if I knew more or had more certs. They didn't even want to see me.
I went out and started up a small business in my neighborhood about a year ago, just fixing computers and doing home networking. That got my foot in the door. I went on the street hawking my wares to small offices, law offices, insurance agents, real estate offices and so forth.
Word got around and I got a couple of support contracts with med-sized businesses doing sys admin on their boxes. Real simple stuff that anyone could do. It's called comparative advantage. Now I've got a couple of contracts, and I'm negotiating a contract with a local general contractor to pull cable for new construction at 2500 a house. I have a pager and a cell and I make my own hours.
By the way--I'm 25 with 2yrs of college education. Comp Sci is not my major, nor ever was. But this helps with school a lot, and I have a family to feed. The only certs I have are A+ and my CCNA. I don't plan on doing this beyond graduation, but it's always a handy thing to have on your resume.
One last warning and advice. Warning. Insure yourself for about 1,000,000 per claim: the more certs and education you have, the cheaper insurance is. I pay about 2000/yr on prof. liability. Advice, join a professional association. You can network a lot and land tons of gigs. It worked for me.
http://cincyboys.blogspot.com/ Everything Cincinnati. Including the word 'Finnih'
A BSc in Comp. Sci. and some co-op experience sounds more than enough to get your foot in the door (entry-level). Are you sure you are applying for the appropriate job? Perhaps you'll need to start lower than you want due to the sluggish economy? Since you are willing to work at any job, I would make sure that you aren't overlooking some of the lower end work (for the time being anyway) -- sys admin hopefully requires more experience than you have :) Likewise, look for "junior" positions as well. Look at non-tech companies that have tech needs (banks and insurance and investment companies for example).
:) of demonstrating over time that they are keeping pace with current technologies.
I don't think certificates early in one's career are that beneficial since it starts looking like you are just too obviously trying to make up for lack of real-world experience by overloading your resume with these certificates. Certificates, in my opinion, are good ways for senior practicioners (i.e. those over 25
Also, some people may use certificates to help with transitioning from a different career into tech (since going back to school is not an option).
My opinion: don't worry about the certificate issue and start doing a broader search for entry level tech positions.
** Also, it is hard for anyone to know WHY you didn't get an interview if we don't know exactly what your resume and cover letter contain and for what position you applied. You may just have a goofy sounding cover letter or weak resume.
Worse comes to worse, you can always do tech sales (I guarantee you can get a job there) -- man that phone boy!!!
To quote a CNN article:
"the most talented student will always have options."
Right now, the market is tight for programmers. This is no longer the field that anyone can get a degree in and automatically make 60K+ out of school. So, if you just got the degree because it was the hot thing to do, then your screwed.
If you really have a passion for computers though, then you will find that the market is still there. You just need to seperate yourself from everyone else. Forget certifications, that shows little self-direction, instead why don't you spend that effort developing a piece of open source software.
Write a piece of useful software that showcases your skills. Given the ability most folks have right out of college, this will definitely show that your worth hiring.
Or, if you can, take some time to really strengthen your skills. Companies are always hiring *good* programmers, regardless of the economy. Taking 6 months to study all the industry bibles (the GoF book, the Myers books, etc.) and learn the stuff that is actually useful in the real world. Do this instead of putzing around for 6 months looking at getting certs or drinking every night and you'll land a good job.
int func(int a);
func((b += 3, b));
Granted, I didn't have BSc when I started out, but I spent a couple of years working low paying research assistant jobs before I made the jump to something I could really make a living at. Seriously, it took that long before it looked like I had enough experience to be attractive. Granted, I could've been more agressive in my job search, but, still it was always annoying to hear that my education was impressive, but I didn't have enough experience. I'll also note that I was looking for a scientific programming job back then and there was a PhD glut in the field which meant someone with a BS didn't stand a chance. Even so, once I got experience, especially in Internet stuff, the offers started coming in. Nothing gets an employers attention like real experience. Meanwhile, I've had mixed results with certs. I have a cert in SNMP and that's been a real boon, but my cert in Cabletron's Spectrum system has been a real waste. Glad I didn't pay for it. I think the difference is that one cert, the SNMP, says that I understand a field, while the other, Cabletron, says I know a specific system. The later is less valuable because you never know if employer has adopted that particular system. So, I'd say a good cert in something like Java, C++, SQL, or some other broad tech area would be good while windows XP cert might not be much help. But, anyway you slice it, this is tough time to be starting out in CS. I see lots of job opps for people with 5-10 years experience in "blah", but nothing entry level at all.
As much as it sucks, certs aren't the answer. Speaking with a hea dhunter recently he did say companies care much more about certs now than they did a year ago - but that is because they can. There is a fairly large, experienced pool of talent out there.
Getting certs, however, is a very expensive proposition for osmeone currently unemployed. A typical test can now cost aroun $500, so accumulating a list of certs is not really an option.
Deciding WHAT you want to do is the first step. You might consider doing anything if the opportunity comes along, but in terms of getting certs you need ot focus more (unless you have more moneyt than you know what to do with, in which case why do you need a job so bad?). This means, yes, making a decision about your future. Youare free ot change it down the line, but you do have to choose - sysadmin/netadmin, development, dba, etc
After you figure what you want get experience doing it. The portfolio is becoming a tool of the unemployed developer. Showing first rate code that you have written, along with unit tests, use cases/user stories, UML diagrams etc make syou look better. Really, if you have littl eprofessional experience it is the best thing you can do to look good for a "walk in" interview.
Choose the direction you would like to steer and start a project, or get in on a starting project. Don't dive into an established open-source project. They might appreciate the help, but your goal here is to have somethign to show that YOU can claim 100% credit for. Comntributing bug fixes to gcc won't do that for you, though it might feel good.
The seoncd thing is become involved in the local development community. You might laugh, but this is possible. Hit Yahoo Group and search for any group in your area related for what you are doing. Make an emeail account that can accumulate spam, and sign up. Talk to people. Networking (people, not CCNA) is still the best way to find a job, period.
Only then, consider getting a cert or two. The ones I have seen being respected are the Sun Java developer certs (okay, JCP is sorta laughable, but the larger ones get nods), Cisco certs are respected, and Oracle certs are respected. Certs are no substitute for experience, unfortunately. Human resources may not realize this, but the hiring manager will.
FInally, find someone who IS a professional developer, who has undergone many code reviews, who knows how the system works in a decent shop and ask if they will review your code and designs. Buy them beer, coffee, crack, whatever it takes. When it comes down to the decision - your skill will determine your success. THis includes skill in talking the talk - and the only way to do that correctly is to really learn it. Most good developers are willing to help new people, it is flattering. There are various systems to try to make this easier via the net. In my experience these are not nearly as good as meeting someone via the aforementioned networking and offering to buy them a beer in exchange for picking their brain. While buying em a beer, slip in that you would really like if they could do somehting like a formal code review of your stuff - afterall, it is the only way to really improve.
Finally, read lots of code. Figure out how it works. Look at systems and make sur eyou understand em. A *great*, though boring as hell, way to do this is to write API docs for good projects. Do not contribute directly to them yet - your time is better spent building things you can claim redit for. Let's say you are into Java development, run by the Apache project and submit improved API docs. No one likes writing em, but to do it well you NEED to understand what the code does.
That, and know that you have my sympathies. The hiring market sucks right now.
-Frums
The CCIE seems to be the one of the few certifications that, on it's own, will land you a job. Most certifications make you look a little better, but don't really mean jack against real world experience. The value of the cert is proportional to demand for the skills and the availability of those skills in the job market. For example, MCSE is in demand, but there are so many of them that it's not as valuable. CCIE's are in demand, but because it's hard to get the cert and expensive, it means the supply is still relatively low (at least last time I checked).
What I might suggest to you is simply get a list of a bunch of certifications and do searches on the various job sites to see how many hits you get, etc. That should give you a rough approximation of where the demand is. Also, maybe find a good technical recruiter and see what they recommend as the hot demand right now.
One bit of advice for you though is that I would put some careful thought into which direction you choose, be it programmer, admin, etc. A few years down the line you can change jobs, but if you do so you'll be very little better off than you are now due to the lack of relevant work experience in the new area. Tech jobs seem to seek people with very specific skill sets, and care less about general experience.
A friend of mine got into sysadmining but would much prefer being a developer now. Of course now if he was to try to go back and be a developer he'd have to take a substantial cut in pay. So if you might change your mind later, just be aware of this little trap and plan for it (save up some money, maybe do some side work in some open source projects, etc, just to keep your skills honed).
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Unfortunately, there are usually 2 orthogonal stages to being hired. First, your resume has to get past HR (Human Resources). They typically know nothing about the job beyond the half-page writeup.
:) that you can actually talk to someone about what is really involved, and sell yourself.
:)
So if it says "wants 5 yr experience with C", well, if you don't have '5 years experience with C' listed on your resume, you won't get forwarded on. Even if your name is Richie and you list '10 yrs C++' becuas you wanted to focus on recent accomplishments.
It's only after getting past HR (and perhaps a PHB
Certs are only useful for the HR stage, but that's a killer cutoff. I've recommended folks for jobs I wrote the spec for, only to have HR bump them because they were missing a buzzword.
Good luck! List everything, be concise
A.
I expect a lot of people will weigh in on certifications, and the arguments for and against are pretty widely known. Here is what I understand:
1)the vendor certifications (Microsoft, Oracle, etc) have some marketability, but the courses and related material are overpriced. So are the predictions of median incomes that certified people enjoy.
2)it is impossible for certifications to measure the ability to program, to think creatively or to solve problems. However, they do measure in a rough way one's familiarity with an application/OS's mechanisms to accomplish tasks.
3)Aside from Microsoft, Oracle and Cisco, employers have usually never heard of
the certification you have.
4) Employers are impressed about certifications when it is hard to measure competence. It is a third-party objective criteria. What impresses them is that you took the initiative, that you had to study for some test. That's different from just sitting at a seminar and passively absorbing information.
5). Despite what people say, "paper certifications" and "paper mills" are not worthless. The problem with IT institutes is that no training program can cover the variety of problems and administrative functions that one encounters on the job. On the other hand, they do a good job of exposing you to some of the basic tasks.
6)The problem with "paper certifications" (especially vendor-sponsored ones) is that to pass them you need to learn skills specific to the application or OS. That puts the onus of chasing after skills (and paying for them) entirely on the job seeker. And surely by the time you pass one certification, you'll hear about another one that is the next best thing. You need to ask yourself, "why I am spending time immersing myself in vendor-specific information when I should be learning more general things: protocols, network architecture and programming theory and algorithms.
7)Certifications do matter in my own field: technical writing and training. They indicate some familiarity with a particular domain of learning.
8)If you seek a certification, seek it only because you find the subject in and of itself to be interesting. I sought the LPI 1 certification because I needed to know these concepts anyway and the certification provided a structure and path for learning the material. Right now, I am pursuing another certification, the Master CIW Administrator
certification. I'm not sure employers will even know what this certification is, but I know that the subjects on the certifications: network security, ip6 and unix/windows interoperability are things I would be learning anyway.
9)If you do seek certification, don't spend more than $100 on study material. There are hundreds of sites and forums that provide good study guides and practice tests for free. You'll also enjoy sharing in the learning and studying experience. My favorite is Exam Notes
Robert Nagle, Idiotprogrammer, Houston
to the new economy.
better then certificates, make contacts. Network.
Go to the user groups in whateer field your interested. Find your local euntrepenuar club, meet people looking to hire someone for there start-up. if nothing else, it will get you experience.
The military is looking for people with IT knowledge. Get in as an officer, after 4 years, you'll be done. It's not really that hard of a career for people with technicall background, plus you might get liucky and get assigned to some Rll [probably make as much as you can in todays civilian market, withno experience.
It sounds to me as if you got into the technicall fiels 4-5 years ago because it was lucrative, but now that you got your degree, the market is crap, and you have no real interest in the technology.
I could be wrong.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Sad, isn't it, that so many managers only hire people they know, and still end up whining (even in this economy) that finding good people is hard to do. Maybe they should start looking for people on the basis of qualifications for a change.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
SAGE, the Systems Administrators Guild has a junior-to-mid-level professional certification for systems administrators now, called cSAGE.
Unlike vendor/product certifications, this cert is designed to assess your ability to perform in an IT role -- namely, systems administrator -- rather than your ability to memorize features and functions of a particular product. It tests troubleshooting skill, background knowledge of process and procedure, and general junior-to-mid-level sysadmin proficiency, both in general and specific to Unix (they're working on a Windows module and several other, higher-level "merit badge" modules).
.@.
(emphasis added by me)
(and so on)
Perhaps while you're at college, you might consider taking some non-Engineering courses. Learn to spell, use proper grammar. Become a well-rounded individual. Learn to communicate concepts and ideas effectively. From all indications, while you may be one of those "people that do know computers for real," you're not a very appealing employment candidate due to your poor communication skills. Then again, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "know computers for real," since if you're not getting good grades in your CS classes, how much can you really know about CS? (Computer Science != just computers. there's a metric pantload of theory and algorithms to learn. It doesn't matter if you're the fastest linux installer in the West, if you don't learn that theory you'll never be able to call yourself a Computer Scientist, regardless of what your degree eventually says.)
College is about more than just hunkering down and focusing strictly on your one chosen subject. Sure, there's a time and place for that, but as long as you're going to be there for 4+ years (milk another year or two out of the parents while the economy's in the pooper), you may as well take some time and attend some interesting classes that will grow your knowledge in other directions than just computers computers computers.
If you KNOW your stuff, you can write your ticket.
But asking "what certs will help?" Shows one thing - you don't.
That is harsh. I know. I from the other end of 20+ years of experience, with no degree, no certs AND DO NOT WANT THEM.
All certs prove is that you can read a manual and type answers. You too could be MENSA, same entrance exam, and same benfits (none).
The only proof is showing your skills, that means taking over the interview controling thier attention, showing you have some thing to provide.
But the orginal writer said that he got a CS degree and can not code, then what good is it? Why not have history degree instead? Gives you the same advange, in the tech world.
Remember, tech breaks down to operators and designers.
If you can not code, design a database (500+ tables) or build a network (1000+ seats in multiple locations) then you are an operator.
There is a lot of operators out there. That is what is a buyers market.
Give up on job postings. I have never gotten a job from a listing like that. Every IT job I've ever found is through networking.
Talk to the people you worked with during your co-op. Talk to other students. Talk to professionals at your local ACM/IEEE meetings. Everyone you know should know that you are looking. Put a sign on your car. Whatever it takes.
Now, I suppose it's entirely possible that I just suck and my resume is horrible and the only way I can ever hope to get a job is by knowing the right people. I don't think that's the case, though. Leverage the people you know! If you don't know people, meet them!
Al Qaeda has ninjas!
I saw a mention in one of the posts that most certs are vendor or hardware specific (Cisco, for example). With LPI [www.lpi.org], SAIR [linuxcertification.com], and CompTIA [www.comptia.com] all offering various certifications. Does this make the linux certs more valuable? Which is the "best" of the ones I've mentioned? (I know, I didn't mention RHCE). Did I miss any others that are valuable? Thanks.
In terms of certifications, it depends on who's doing the hiring. 'Techno-savvy' managers are likely to outright dismiss certifications and look at experience above all else (including education). Managers who are less technically inclined are the ones who are impressed by certifications and education.
And lastly for experience, in my father's example he was looking for around five years experience minimum... and out of the hundreds who applied, only 6 had that kind of experience... It's quite the buyer's market right now, and experience can go a -long- way.
There's no wrong way, to eat a Rhesus...
Contrast that to when I entered college (1997-98ish) and you can see we've slipped quite a bit -- companies were *soo* desperate for CS people that they would *pay your last year of college*. A buddy of mine graduated in 1997 as a CS/EE dbl and got picked up for 80k/yr by Sun to start. Now a *great* job is 45/yr.
The good news is it will pick up soon enuf.
Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley
Learn RPG and get rich. Seriously. There is a lot of demand for RPG programmers for sucke^Wcompanies that bought IBM all those years ago and can't get off it now.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
One of my interview questions is "What is your greatest technical achievement?" If your answer to that question has anything to do with certifications, I will throw you out into the street.
I don't recall ever being critically intersted in an applicant's certifications, and when I am, I can consult their resume. I want to know if you can do the job.
This may be too obvious to mention, but the process of studying for a certification is more important than attaining the end result. You should be reading these study books because the knowledge is useful and interesting. Take the quizzes, and don't be afraid to do research about why the answer you chose was incorrect. Perform the tasks yourself and research why your initial guesses about how to do things turned out to be incorrect. While you shouldn't ignore the braindumps of others, you should really be focusing on doing things yourself. You'd be amazed at the difference between how the book describes it and how it really is done.
Robert Nagle, Idiotprogrammer, Houston
I personally think certifications are excellent... for the certification companies. All those fees and exams and "ongoing requirements" (e.g. lifelong cashflow). As a useful measure of someone's ability, they rate about zero with me.
If you can't code, get a piece of paper that says you can.
For some reason, the only "certified" people I know are incompetent. I figured they needed a piece of paper to impress someone because they lack the skills necessary to beef up the resume.
Rather like the programmer we hired who suddenly blurted that he really wasn't "technical". Holy smokes!! What good is THAT!? We made him a Project Manager which is basically like playing catcher behind the plate at a Shitball game.
If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem
I am a rarer breed of technician than what most folks may typically encounter.
I have used and serviced Macintosh systems since 1987 (15 years). I have used and serviced PC/Intel-class hardware for a few years more (18 years). I am an Apple Service Technician, a certification valid only when you work with an Apple Authorized Service Provider (which I do).
I'm also an author of this book on beginning Macintosh programming in Mac OS 9 and X.. So, I can write and document matters, too.
More than a year ago, I was hired by a new IT company for Macintosh support, and received a very large pay increase commensurate with my experience. Recently, the client I provide services with had decided to move to a larger, more global IT solution. My company did a great job for them, but couldn't do the global bit. In the span of 3 months, a bunch of PC technicians, many with years of experience as well as some certs (of those, many had advanced certs) were recalled by my company from the client and sent elsewhere. Had they been employees of our client, they would've been fired.
I and a few others who had very special skills were kept to handle interests that the global IT solution couldn't handle.
This isn't the first time that my experience in many things Mac and PC has saved me from being ejected or moved around.
My point: Experience counts a great deal now. Certifications do help, but aren't essential (my Apple Service certification is really a glorified A+ for Mac OS systems). Diversity in your experience is what might make the difference between a job opportunity and a ding letter.
I sometimes fantasize how much money I could ask for if I added an MCP certification as well as the new certifications that Apple offers for their products as a counterpart to MS certifications. For me, diversity in my experience has proved to be a powerful way to move up in the world. Being able to document and teach hasn't hurt either.
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
Many people who have been maintaining PC's for 10+ years might find the A+ exams quite difficult! And a good portion might even fail. The A+ tests are a very good test and they require specific knowledge of PC hardware, networking, printers, and software. Unlike other certifications (Cisco, MS, etc), the A+ is not specific to a certain brand of hardware. Have you even taken the A+ test? If not then you shouldn't dismiss it as garbage.
Got friends?
I work in IT, with no certifications other than a BA in Comparative Religion. My computer skills are entirely self-taught, and I have been able to work in areas of increasing responsibility and complexity.
;) ).
Typically, I've switched jobs or applied for new ones based on who I know at the new job, or what I know about them. The biggest thing you can do for yourself is to identify _where_ you want to work -- and then do your research. Do you know anybody who works there -- or have friends of friends who work there -- who can tell you more about the place, including what positions are open, what skills they need? I identified an employer I wanted to work for based on their reputation in the community, and then started asking questions. When I discovered they needed people with PHP experience, I taught myself PHP and applied -- and got the job.
In another instance, with a freelance job, I knew somebody tangentially related to a department that needed some webwork done on contract -- and she put in a word for me. It was my communication skills, in the end, that got me the job.
While your resume may shine, and you've got it plastered all over town, people still like to go with known variables -- so you'll need to circulate, and get to know people (in case you don't already
Go to Toastmasters, and participate. Or find somebody who can coach you through some interviews -- chances are there's a job service in your area with whom you can sign up that could help you.
Don't expect to get a job on your skills and talent alone. A workplace isn't just a computer -- it's people, and they need to know that they can communicate with you, and vice versa, before they hire you. Programmers do not work in isolated environments anymore.
Slightly different field, same concept.
;-)
I have worked for the same Defense Contractor in the DC area since 1994. Graduated then with a BS Finance and some low level military experience (well, I did work in a Major Subordinate Command as a Captain for a while as a Reservist).
Anyway, this part will be easier now than it was in 1994:
1. Get classifieds from newspapers (or search web classified of newspapers) in the regions that you think there may be work or where you want to move to. I graduated from utk.edu and there was not much in town, so I got the sunday Washington Post every tues or so and copied the fax and e-mail addresses for every defense related job I could find, then sent resume and cover letter to each. Not many back then, but at least this breaks you away from the monster.com masses today too.
2. Always tell them you will be in the area for a couple of days the following week, i.e., if you send to Chicago today say you will be there Tues - Thurs next week. This gets you past many of the "out of town apps" that get trashed, also, since you are responding to the newspaper ad it gives the illusion that you actually give a crap about that city
3. When you start getting responses, plan your travel to do several interviews at once. If you get one interview in Chicago this week, but 2 in NYC next week and another in Chicago the week after, try to get one of the Chicago ones moved.
May not help, but I hope it does. Sofar what I have seen on this article is "I don't have a cert and you don't either" or "I have a cert and so do you". Seems you have a good enough education, just need to use a different guerilla method to get some interviews.
BTW, you ARE AVAILABLE IMMEDIATELY and leave every possible way to contact you that you know of (your phone, parents, cell, fax (I know but they are still in use), e-mail, snail mail, EVERYTHING!
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
As a programmer, I must say I dislike the entire "certification" philosophy. I do not think that being able to pass standardized multiple choice exams is a very meaningful measure of anyone's ability to perform analytical/problem solving tasks, especially programming. I've worked with various net admins with certs out the butt who simply could not analyze problems and solve them. I think real world experience is vastly more important.
When I was involved in the hiring process, I never ever cared about programmers' certifications (only a very low percentage of them even had certs). Instead, I looked at what they *did*. Also, I read the want ads quite a bit and I almost never see anyone asking for "certified" programmers.
So, if you want to write code, don't waste your time with programming certifications. They really don't help you, especially if your interviews are conducted by coders.
If you want to be in network administration, unfortunately it seems you need certs to get anywhere. Again, I disagree with the philosophy behind this, but that's the way it goes, I guess.
With that out of the way, what about non-profits? Most of these need general computer assistance, but don't really know what to ask for. Someone with basic tech knowledge could make a real difference.
In fact, if you like open source software, you could help the revolution along:
- Get a general tech job at a non-profit, hopefully one working with disadvantaged people with low educational skills
- Help convert old computers to Linux systems so that they can still be used to some capacity.
- Start modifying interfaces for the needs of co-workers and the people they help. Make a real-world usability lab that works!
- Become famous as the guy who put Linux on the desktop ("He made it so that even high-school dropouts could use it!")
- Spend the rest of your life sipping champagne and eating caviar with Linus.
Now, isn't that more exciting than working with Cisco routers all day, Mr. CCIE?This was linked off Red Hat's site sometime back in the RHCE hype. This data is pretty old; I haven't seen them post any updates.
I myself have an OCP; I would think Java would be more reasonable cert for a new grad.
http://www.crn.com/sections/special/ssurvey/ssurvI got an MS in Comp Sci and like you couldn't get a job for love nor money even though I too knew I could do what I was applying for (Java Development). I even had a well received and published MS thesis under my belt together with a contribution to an award winning project funded by the UK Post Office. How many interviews? Zip. Nada.
I though fsck it, go freelance. So I set myself up as a "company" and worked freelance doing Internet work for about 18 months and built myself up a large client portfolio. Eventually I though I'd take a crack at the job market again. With my freelance experience (which I'm told looks good because it proves you can do stuff ON YOUR OWN) I landed an interview within a week of trying and got the job.
Two years on I'm my job title is "senior systems engineer" and I travel all over the world working on various projects.
Never under estimate the power of being self-employed.
There is enough information in my previous post to warrant a plug here.
Basically, IBM DB2 certification is free, and Oracle tests and materials are available for half price if you are in an academic program.
Now is absolutely not a good time for a recent grad to be looking for a job. This is especially true since every company that normally hires new-grads has likely already filled their positions. It is the end of May, after all.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
There are some things that you can do to help get a CS job -- you're on the right track, more/less with the idea of getting some more education. I don't think that the actual certification is worth much more than a statement of "I have some initiative," though. I certainly don't pay much attention to it when I interview candidates.
As previously pointed out, it's a buyers market, and so those companies that do have jobs are going to have their choice of people. Frankly, the fact that you don't have a job now is a strike against getting one soon -- there's a hidden bias that says "Well, nobody's wanted him yet. Should I take a chance?"
Things to do? Find a small handful of companies who have hired your friends, and who are either hiring now, or will be soon. Learn as much as you possibly can about the company and their products. That way, when you do get an interview, you'll be able to talk intelligently -- that, by itself, can wow them.
Don't stay unemployed -- find something else to do related to your field. Write open-source software to create a name for yourself (and learn something in the process); go back to grad school and wait the job market out; Travel -- at least when they ask 'why is he still unemployed,' the answer can be 'he was backpacking across Europe', and not 'he was being turned down by 30 other companies.'
I was actually looking at the SAIR linux certification the other day. I can understand the rush to get certified by people who are just in it for the money, but for those are are interested in augmenting their knowledge because they WANT to be better at what they do, certification seems like a reasonable choice. I'm not so interested in what employers/clients are looking for, so much as I am in being effective at what I do. Why let the employer decide this for you?
Those of us who are certified in one or more technologies can argue with you there. But the point the poster is making is that it is very difficult to "show them what you know" if you can't even get a foot in the door to meet "them." A lot of companies screen applicants by keywords and your application/resume/inquiry won't even show up as a blip on their screens without certain keywords such as MCSE, CCNA, CNE, MCDBA, RHCE or some other certification being included as part of your name. It's the eternal chicken and egg dilemma we've all faced at one point or another in our careers.
I've seen on countless occassions, more so since the job market is tight, that when it came down to deciding who was to stay or who was to go, the final decision wasn't based on job term, certifications, or whether you were a good brown-noser, but was made based on the fact of who had a 4 yr college degree. Employers are finding out that 2 year tech doesn't mean shit. Sure, you may be able to program pretty well. But for most, that is all you can do. Verbal and Written communication is severely lacking from people who 'educate themselves and 2 year techs'. From a managment perspective a person with a 4 yr degree is well rounded and would be better at adapting to change. As harsh as it may seem, it happens all the time. Many good workers are let go because they don't have the paper to back them up.
And what if you are working for a company of 100 people? You need to design a network of 1000+ seats to be a "designer?" If I'm the only computer tech for a company of 25, am I a lowly "operator" even though there's no designer?
Sounds to me you're referring to consultants vs. implementors. The consultants say "you should build a faster car" and the implmementors do the REAL work of figuring out how.
-- Ken Kinder ken@_nospam_kenkinder.com http://kenkinder.com/
Or soon, the contract will be over.
You know, that thing where we're all exhorted to spend, spend, spend, keep the economy moving... but strangely enough, they keep laying people off, refusing to hire, etc etc etc.
Eventually, people are just going to get sick of spending just to give money to those Enron CEO types who'll just hoard it.
Woe betide the USA when consumers eventually give up trying to spend the economy back into employment.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
Ok, degrees are good. Certifications are good (except for MS certs, they are the equivalent of memorizing the state capitals). But spouting all kinds of letters at any HR or IT person is just that- spouting. If you have a Novell cert and have no Novell experience, guess what, no impact.
Base point- don't bother getting a cert in something you have no experience in or have no near-term expectation of getting experience in.
I once interviewed a guy who just got his MCSE and came to our job fair. When he didn't fit any of our offerings (IA, networking, RF), he said he would take a janitor's job if available!
Face it kiddies, the dot boom is gone, and you may just have to work a little bit to get a good job. By good job I mean something besides being a 8-5 drone.
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
Speaking as someone who has been involved in hiring in the IT area, please have someone check your resume! The quality of resumes I've reviewed, even from the ostensibly english speaking, has been dreadful. I'm not just referring to por speling and; gramatical misteaks, but logical construction and effective use of the language are sorely lacking.
If you don't have any friends involved in the hiring process who can take a look at your resume and cover letter, at least have some of your more verbally able classmates go over them. Your college's career center may also be of help.
Yours truly,
Jeffrey Boulier
I like managers who tell me what to do but I don't like managers who tell me how to do it.
Lets get one thing straight. They do help, and anyone that tells you they don't is either jealous or bent 3 ways to sunday because they know someone that has one that is a fool. Well guess that goes with anything. No one remembers the MCSE/CCA/CCNA/Inet+ guy that knew his shit. They only remember the one that asked them what a managed switch was. Here is the skinny. Certifications are good for 2 things. #1 they are resume fodder, period end of story. They don't show you "know your stuff" but they do show you took the time, the effort, and at least have the ability to absorb it. We hired a SysAdmin last month and I can tell you anyone without at least and MCSE did not even get a call. Why? Because we had people with 8+ years exp on NT, 4+ on unix, and large network with Certs across the board. So if you think they don't matter your clueless. They do matter in getting your foot in the door, believe it. I am talking at a shop with over 20 international locations, and 300 plus nt servers. There is no way we are going to even see someone if they did not take the time to pull a MCSE out of their hat. Second, if gives you a broad base to pull from in and experience world you know what you have touched, period. You don't know anything about anything you have not seen or worked on. Granted you might be able to do it, that is fine but how do I know that. The certs at least give you a baseline of knowledge as low as it may be and lets us know you put some time in and stuck with something.
For everyone that did not have an MSCE we just flung in the bit bucket, sorry but that is the ropes bud, and if it is easy to get... roll out and get one. So you can get it easy you say, well put some time in and do it. You don't want to because it is worth nothing? Fine we don't want you working here. Pretty simple. We don't hire people without them because to us it is like asking if you have a high school diploma. MCSE/CCNA is the bottom line that we look for, not the clincher.
My advice, get a helpdesk job. Prove your skills, hone them for 30k a year and put some exp under your belt and crank out the certs on the side before you get out of your study habbits. Before long you will see the light that you are searching for, but there is no easy road. Microsoft might not be the way, cisco might not be the way, but get out there and give it some time. People telling you a cert is not good most of the time don't have one. People that tell you a college degree is worthless most of the time don't have one. Trust me when I tell you that they are both important and are just part of what you need to land that job.
Experience, Degree, Certs, and for god sakes a nice suit are all things that will help. Network in your helpdesk job, you will see things drop in your lap when the time is right.
Good luck.
Neck_of_the_Woods
#/usr/local/surf/glassy/overhead
Someone has never played with SAP R/3, it would appear.
180some tables, and this one isn't all that big. About 4-8 of the tables have roughly 30 million records each. The majority of the others have several thousand records, few are truly small. I'm told, that this is far from being the largest SAP database out there, and I get the distinct impression that my coworker means something along the lines of "twice, even three times as big as ours".
Ah, the frustrations of being a lowly little helpdesk ijit. *frown*
Me, I would think I'd call those "database admins" and network architect, respectively.
find a small company that doesn't have an in-house IT guy/department. if you live close to a large city, manufacturing plants are about your best bet. now, this part is important: walk in and present them with your resume. don't just mail it. explain to them that you have the skills and that you want to apply them. offer to be their IT guy, whether it be full or part time. explain to them why an in-house IT guy is better to have than outsourcing it (better system design, more homogenous setup, not having to call outside for help, etc.). most plants will be open to this. offer to do it for a low salary (yeah, it's not what you think you're worth, but it's better than what you're making now). use that as your jumping off point when you move onto your next job.
i did that when i was 16, and it's what helped me get to my current job. trust me, if you can swallow your pride, it will work.
Any of those blonde girls could get a job in IT no problem, grades, certs, or degrees notwithstanding.
Of course, they could get jobs in any other field they wanted too.
Of course they could find a sugar daddy and not work at all.
I work with a database that has, as of now, 926 tables.
500 tables is NOT a lot for an enterprise database.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
"Guaranteed Contract"
Management wants to have all the choices. Sorry. Those choices shouldn't be free.
"If you want this hard-won knowledge applied to your product, this employee wants a two-year guaranteed contract. If your company fails to keep him/her employed during that time, you will still be obligated to pay their salary."
If they balk, then they probably planned on laying people off early. If they REALLY planned to fulfill even the most minimal obligation to an employee, they should sign without hesitation.
They'll balk. Therefore, it doesn't make any difference what certifications someone has.
If they don't balk, it should at least shut down most of the "I feel like it" layoffs.
It's times like these when "down, not across" seems like a good thing to know...
--
perl -e'$_=shift;die eval' '"$^X $0\047\$_=shift;die eval\047 \047$_\047"' at -e line 1.
Here's a thought -- communicate effectively and your manager(s) will not have any spelling/grammar errors to pick on. Instead, s/he will be forced to actually read the doc to be able to appear competent. As it is, you're giving them an easy excuse not to bother reading it.
You may assert that there's no difference between "there", "their", and "they're" ("thier" is not a word) when you can determine the meaning through context, and perhaps you're correct. However, ignoring the significance between such constructs (the afore-mentioned example, excessive apostraphication, misspellings, incoherent grammar, etc) reflects poorly on you, not on those criticizing your writing style rather than the content you've written. It's about being a professional, and correctly using the language in which you're communicating. I'm sure you've ran into plenty of syntax errors, if you program at all. Why should the compiler complain that you wrote "suhlect" rather than "select", when the meaning is obvious? Yes, people are more flexible than any currently-available compiler out there, but the same concept holds -- the point you're trying to make is more easily communicated when you use the proper syntax (ie, correct English).
Then again, if you still feel that you're too good to bother with proper English, go ahead. Just don't blame me when your managers, coworkers, and (god forbid you have any!) subordinates begin to think of you as a fool for your inability to communicate.
I disagree. He qualified his statement with:
...if you get to hundreds of tables, you need to look at what you're doing wrong.
;-)
-Bill
SlashSig Karma: Excellent (mostly affected by moderatio
I may be a buyers' market right now in North America or Europe, but in other places, the supply and demand is more balanced.
Take places like China or Singapore or Brazil, there are still great demand for skilled techies.
If you think your skill is not appreciated in the States, try China, Singapore or even South Africa.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
I graduated Jan 2002 with CS degree from a big university in Boston area, (let's not mention the name), and moved to San Jose area around Jan 2002 and haven't been able to find the lowest job in the IT food chain jobs. The recession sucks. Damn it.
I personally think Certs are for "many" people who want short cuts, and therefore are very much interested in having IT jobs with a lot of money but really doesn't have a clue about computing. Many of them just don't have any real interests in computer technologies but only in the dollar signs. I just got pissed off at these people and the H1B people because I worked so damn hard in college to learn as much as possible the in's and out's of computer technologies and can't even find a job. By the way, I had a summer internship with a big name company, a couple of IT jobs at my school, and took almost all of the graduate classes for graduate students while I was still an undergrad. I graduated with way above 3.0 GPA both on my major or accummulated. I do use a variety of OS systems, and write this while in my Linux box (I find it really funny that some CS students don't ever even bother to try Linux/Unix and they consider themselves CS people. They miss out.) . I am not like one of those monkey coders. I do know how to program and know my shit. I know more than the average CS graduated BA students at my school and other schools. Not only that, I've tried to acquire or at least become familiar with a variety of skills because I read the damn good book "The Pragmatic Programmer". I have true interests in computer technologies and have invested tons of money to buy so many O'Reiley books and other technical books beside my school textbooks. I have spent so many hours to set up/play with this and that.
Anyway, I haven't even bothered to look for jobs for the last month or so, it is just pointless. The hiring managers are blinded deaf illiterate suckers. The HR people are unbelievable dummies and have no idea of what the people they are hiring doing. I just don't understand why companies place hiring decisions on these HR people while they can't even tell the differences between C and C++. I agree with some of the comments in this thread of messages. I believe the companies are better off to hire people who are passionate about computer technologies because they will live and breathe with them. These people in the long run will make excellent contributions to the companies' growths, but make sure hire the ones who know their shits, and don't base on the Certs. With or without Certs, these passionate for computer technologies people will always come out on top on their respective computing fields.
Peace out to the unemployed recent CS graduate students. Sorry for ranting.
Last but not least, I virtually don't have any contacts or connections here, how do I even ever find a job in my field? I just don't want to go to work for no brainer jobs.
Comment: Perhaps one thing you overlooked is contacting all those companies you did coop with? At any rate, you seem to me like a technicaly-capable guy, but are obviously lacking human skills (no offense meant).
Anyhow, papers (CS degree or certification, they're the same, really) may or may not mean anything to an employer, depending on where you apply and who you talk to.
This being said, I will refute what other people in this thread have said about employers wanting to see that you can think for yourself. Know who you are talking to! If your upcoming boss is the kind of introverted geek who has even less faith in his technical skills than in his womanizing skills, anyone that seems to know anything that he doesn't know will be percieved as competition and immediately shelved! Insecure bosses hire dramaticaly lesser drones for fear of competition, it's a fact.
Software is not supposed to be about how to work around a useability issue. - Ken Barber
Slashdot should start a job forum. Then all of the employers can sift through "Experienced Sys Admin from Goatse.cx looking for new opportunity." submittals!
Seriously though, a slashdot job forum would be cool... I would be it's first customer. (seeker)
What I would give to put "Slashdot Karma: 50" on my resume!
The real problem is that jobs are unavailable. If a system goes down or something small needs to be coded up, instead of calling a graduate who'll have to work out how their system is constructed, they'd rather call a guy that's worked on their system before OR a guy that's worked on similar systems before (READ: experience). That way when the new recruit walks in the door he'll head straight for the right machine, issue a few commands and be done in 5 minutes.
A graduate on the other hand will see 15 Cisco 12016's, 20 Sun E15000 servers 8 feet tall, ten 5TB RAID systems and just simply gawk at it and be too afraid to do anything (although I'll admit it's worse to have someone who *thinks* he knows what he's doing). Haskell, C or Customers -> Products > Orders database design simply won't cut it in this environment, and employers know it.
If you're a good graduate (sounds like you are) they would have trained you up (it sounds like you can hit the ground running though), but in the current environment this simply ain't gonna happen (because there's no ground to run on).
To be honest, I felt the same way as you when I graduated, but a million lines of Visual C++ code is even now very daunting to me. As conselation, you'll know exactly how computers work when you graduate, and how routers and SDH/SONET/fibrechannel actually work on the inside, laughably inefficient RIP, better IGRP, EIGRP, BGP4, spanning tree, unfortunately this knowledge is targetted to telcos who are SCREWED. Take it from me, having all this knowledge trashed makes you feel like sh**t. From your knowledge it sounds like it'll take only 3 months to train you to advanced CCIE level, but I'm afraid nobody cares. C and Java will get you nowhere unless you lie on your CV (which all but the most naive person does). Form your own Limited Company (costs 200 quid) and say you're "The Head of Programming", sit on your ass for a couple of years and then say that you have 2 years of experience in whatever skills you want. By your tone it sounds like your IQ >> 120 so you can get away with this lie. Show your mate's address on your reference so they don't get suspicious when your reference address = your own home address. You can lie and say the company has 100 employees, half the commpanies fake their size on client visits anyway by renting extra office space for 1 day and getting schoolkids in to talk on dead phones, unfortunately I can't find the article again that says this. Sorry kiddo, your only other option is to do accountancy.
Score: -2, Matrix violation, this level of knowledge about *the true system* is not allowed. Agent Smith will see to your needs. Only the blue pill can save you now.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
If you have a BS in comp sci you should be able to understand the basics of engineering (you did take science classes right and didn't just take humanities?). You may have to take some undergrad classes but if you get your ms in engineering in some form you have more flexibility with your job choices.
get a ms in ME or civil or EE or chemE. there are always jobs in those areas besides IT.
when the job market is low, you aren't missing much, might as well get a masters which is more valuable in the long term than some certificaton since your masters NEVER EXPIRES, heck its something you put after your name!
Bring back the old version of slashdot.
Bouncings wrote:
First of all, no databases are 500+ tables. I'm serious. There aren't databases that big out there in real world applications.
I don't know about your real world, but in mine they aren't uncommon. I work in a mid-sized company (about 140 employees), and we have more than one database with almost that many tables. Representing a complex system can easily take 100-200 tables. Take three such systems that need to interact, and you have 500+ tables. Many companies achieve this (eg a merchant with accounting, inventory and CRM systems).
If you are getting pasta[sic] few dozen, you need to start using table domains
What do you mean "table domains"? SQL domains have to do with field types, not tables, and I don't see what they have to do with managing lots of tables.
and if you get to hundreds of tables, you need to look at what you're doing wrong.
No, you just have a reasonably complex system, i.e. you are in the real world.
And what if you are working for a company of 100 people? You need to design a network of 1000+ seats to be a "designer?"
The person you were responding to had an annoying, elitist tone. I certainly wouldn't say you need what he's talking about to be a "real" programmer/DBA/Designer/whatever. On the other hand, if I were comparing two DBA applicants, and one had managed a few MS Access files with 10-40 tables each, while another managed a 650 table Sybase database, I'd treat the Sybase DBA much more seriously.
If I'm the only computer tech for a company of 25, am I a lowly "operator" even though there's no designer?
You're a systems administrator, although on a small scale. I, for one, don't buy into jackb_guppy's oversimplification of the computer industry.
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Open mind, insert foot.
jackb_guppy writes:
If you KNOW your stuff, you can write your ticket.
Not from what I've seen. When it comes to getting a job, knowledge is much less important than experience. Experience is what gets you the interview, you can't even try to wow them with your knowledge until you are sitting in front of them.
But asking "what certs will help?" Shows one thing - you don't.
Certifications have clearly helped some people get jobs. I don't think they help as much now. The certification attempts to say "I know this", whether or not you have done it. Again, knowledge is less important than experience.
Most people making hiring decisions for technical staff aren't technical themselves. An intellegent manager with no technical knowledge or political agenda would probably take the following people, in order of preference:
1) The person who has done the job before, on an equal or larger scale, elsewhere (with references)
2) The person who has done the job before, on a smaller scale, elsewhere (with references)
3) The person with a certification saying they know how to do the job.
4) The person without a certification or relevant experience who can convince me that they know how to do the job.
5) The intelligent, self starter who I'm convinced can teach themselves the job as they go.
6) There is no 6, the risk involved in 5 is bad enough that most managers refuse to go there.
If #'s 1 and 2 are scarce, having a cert can bounce you from 5 or 6 up to 3, and get you a job. Whether or not this is actualy intellegent on the managers part is subject to debate, but remember the manager doesn't have technical knowledge, and therefore doesn't know which certs are meaningul and which aren't.
If there are many 1's and 2's, then a cert is meaningless. Right now, there seem to be many 1's and 2's for most computer jobs.
That is harsh. I know. I from the other end of 20+ years of experience, with no degree, no certs AND DO NOT WANT THEM.
Wise, with 20+ years of experience, certifications would just be badly flavored icing on your resume.
All certs prove is that you can read a manual and type answers. You too could be MENSA, same entrance exam, and same benfits (none).
The only proof is showing your skills, that means taking over the interview controling thier attention, showing you have some thing to provide.
There are jobs out there where you won't actually get to an interview without a certification or solid experience.
There are even some jobs out there where you need a certification for them to even look at your resume. I would say that those jobs just aren't worth it, there's no loss to missing out on such a position (unless the job is to teach certification courses).
But the orginal writer said that he got a CS degree and can not code, then what good is it? Why not have history degree instead? Gives you the same advange, in the tech world.
I'd have to agree with this one. A valid (i.e. College Board Certified) Bachelors in Computer Science teaches you how to code, but doesn't teach you how to administer a system. If the writer got through such a CS program without learning how to code, then all they have is an expensive piece of paper.
Remember, tech breaks down to operators and designers.
You oversimplify horribly. The computer industry breaks down into, at minimum:
* Software designers (programmers, analysts, etc.)
* Hardware designers (EE's, Computer Engineers, IC Designers)
* Systems/Network Administrators
* Tech Support
* Operations (Print room, backup systems, etc)
* Training
Even this oversimplifies, and leaves out significant job descriptions (Technical Writer, Web Designer)
If you can not code, design a database (500+ tables) or build a network (1000+ seats in multiple locations) then you are an operator.
Now you are just using labels to be elitist.
There is[sic] a lot of operators out there. That is what[sic] is a buyers market.
There are a lot of all levels of technical people out there. That is why it is a buyers market.
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Open mind, insert foot.
I would seriously consider the unlicensed "Quack" doctor with a 20 year practice, assuming he also comes with good references. There is a lot to be said for real world experience over someone who just got his MD last week by the skin of his teeth.
The biggest problems with the above hypothetical Quack are he couldn't write legal prescriptions; and if complications arose, he couldn't make use of a hospital's resources. All the limitations on such a person are external, because our legal system demands Doctors have that piece of paper. They say nothing about the person's competance.
"What do you call the medical student who graduates last in his class?"
"Doctor."
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Open mind, insert foot.
All in all there are a lot of good people out here on our asses, just the way it goes at the moment.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
Even in the United States there are so many highly skilled coders, etc. available that they're starting to write off people because they've been out of IT for 6 months. This is just another way to filter the CVs because they have so many, soon they'll also consider your astrological star signs and tarot cards but will still have 1,000 applicants per position. In a massive UK telecom company they've got 50 positions available and 17,000 applications. Not good.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
Two years away isn't too bad, you'll probably come out just as the US economy is on the edge of going up. Unfortunately big companies take about a year after that to raise their hiring freeze, so then you'll get something 6 months after that when the Oxbridge people have cleared. These statistics don't lie. If you want to know about the UK economy (objectively, not some Merrill Lynch analyst talking crap) then uhhhhh I dunno. Maybe that's why those city people can bullshit everyone.
BT is in deep trouble, hopefully within 1 year they'll be better. From their perspective this will be a good time to grab the best talent.I thought that I wanted to work in City, then when I had a second round in Lehman I saw the company behind the scenes. I saw the glamour of city life was all just a crock of shit. All that IT there does is bitch about Unix saying "When is Microsoft gonna make their OS scalable?" There was only *1* employee there doing R and D in reconfigurable GUIs (using XML from a server and translating it into parameters for a GridBagLayout in Java UI). They don't care about the technology, they just want point and click so that they can go snuff some coke or something. Now these people are probably out in the street, good, let's see how long they can live in their Porsche Carrera.
Don't undersell yourself, those companies worship us together with Altera and Xylinx, but the position of these companies is far from omnipotent right now. They'll see your CV and say, "Yes, we'll interview you just as a formality. Now the number of positions we have open is -200. Ummmmm, ahhhh I'm sorry I've got to sack some people and then I'll call you back after 2 years."
Good, but a high paid job would be *nice*.Same dropout rate as us. Sounds like you've been interested in this stuff since you were 8 years old. People like us are best at cutting it, although in the fourth year you will realise the futility of exams that only test complex knowledge like comparing quantitatively the scalability of RIP and EIGRP, both in bandwidth and router CPU usage terms with formulae.With one crucial difference - University exams are set by professors who know what they're doing (more or lessDifficult times aren't crap, if you study about the world economic system (take a macroeconomics and politics module, just for a laugh) you'll see that the entire Banks system of gearing ratios leads to booms and busts. What does suck is the catch-22 of normal jobs are unavailable, and if you take a lower job your career ends up on the wrong track for the rest of your life.
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?