Buying Unix?

BarefootClown asks: "I'm currently the sysadmin for the University of Oklahoma Aviation Department. (I know the website looks horrible, it's being redesigned right now by somebody with talent.) Our systems here include two Intel-based servers, one running Windows 2000, one running Linux. The webserver is running on the Linux box. We need a new server, as the old one is about to die (I've lost two of the six hard drives, only one of the two processors is working, and it's just old--we got it second-hand). My boss has been very indulgent in letting me put Linux on a few boxes here, including the webserver, and a couple of web-only terminals (weather/flight planning stations), but he's expressed concern that, if I were to leave my job for some reason, having *nix machines would leave the department unsupported, and out of luck if problems were to occur. Our official departmental (one level up) support channel doesn't support Unix (he didn't support Windows 2000 until the end of last year...), though I might be able to talk to Campus support. This is all becoming a concern because I want to replace the dying box with a Sun NetraX1, which (obviously) doesn't even have the option of running Windows. Any suggestions on how I can convince my boss that it's worth doing? The price on that box is fabulous, at just a bit over a thousand (US) dollars out the door. The nearest PC/Linux box from Dell is about $1400. It seems to me that I know enough *nix people on campus who are looking for jobs that he wouldn't have trouble finding support if I were to leave. How do I convince him that Unix isn't that big of a risk?"

Comments

Groom a replacement before you leave

[nelsonal]

If you can convince him that you will have an equally capable replacement, I would guess that it would reduce his fears. Not knowing much about unix I would be concerned if I had to find a good unix admin myself.

Things I would stress.

[Neck_of_the_Woods]

Go ahead and give him the "Linux/Unix" why it is better speach. I am sure you will hear it at least once. Push all the FUD aside that you will get and you are left with just a couple real reasons.

#1. The fact that it is harder to understand is going to give you at least someone that is "interested" in unix and making it work right. Everyone thinks they are a microsoft admin, but when it breaks they turn into a user real quick.

#2. Academia is one of the best places to find an up and coming unix guy, and you don't have to pay them much.

#3. You don't get everything under the sun installed as default. It tends to be a more secure box out of the cardboard it was shiped in.

#4. I would say from my exp. that once it is up and running, locked down, and doing it's job there is much less "Could you come in a reboot this for me".

#5. You have something that is yours(ie the departments), the guy above you that did not want to support it will keep his hands out of it.

#6. It is a much better learning tool for the people using it. They get broad exposer to things "not microsoft".

#7. You learn fundamentals, not point and click.

#8. Open Source, no purchases. Every manager loves that one.

#9. I would go ahead and introduce him to other places that are using unix in your field. This loosens them up a bit.

#10. Find some things that will help him with problems he has now that are open source. Get them running on the linux boxes and give a little show. This is free on unix!

-- Don't be pushing, there are many things that windows does well. Period. Find the things that unix does well, and show them how you can make them happen for less.

It is about money, don't be fouled. That worry about support is also about money. Show him there are many people on campus that when you move on you personally will make sure that you fill your own shoes as you leave. Take the presure off him about finding a replacement. Hell make it part of your jobs description. Your not going to be there forever, so look at it this way. You can put that on your resume, for a short time you would have had to manage and train someone. That looks good to anyone.

Good luck.

Easy:

[Chasing Amy]

Since it will be a server, give your bosses printouts of all the gaping security vulnerabilities discovered in Windows/whatever webserver. Explain that the Sun box will likely be far less hackable, not to mention more stable, and come with Sun's excellent support and more timely patches than Microsoft could ever offer.

In other words, play the hacker card. Your boss doesn't want his servers hacked because they run Windows, if they would be safe(r) running Unix, does he? :-)

Re:Easy:

[Tom7]

Uh, Solaris needs just as careful an admin as a windows computer (especially right out of the box). Perhaps you missed the recent slew of rpc vulnerabilities?

It's probably true that a competent admin could lock down a Sun box better than a Windows one, but betting his reputation (job?) on it doesn't seem like a good wager...

Not a good idea.

[Chasing Amy]

> For less than half the cost of that Sun POS, you can build a box that will handle quite a load if you build it from generic parts.

Yes, and then he could get cursed out by his bosses if/when a part fails. Look, I build my own machines for my own personal uses, like most people here. But for a real corporate/institutional server, that isn't a safe, accepted option.

See, if the Sun box dies, Sun will fix/replace it within the contractual period, and Sun will be to blame for the malfunction. If however "IT Guy" builds the server and installs *nix himself, "IT Guy" gets all the blame when something hardware or software goes wrong.

So, Sun [or IBM/Dell/whatever] is safe, while DIY is dangerous, in a real-world server environment--if you're the guy responsible for it.

Re:Not a good idea.

[sigwinch]

If however "IT Guy" builds the server and installs *nix himself, "IT Guy" gets all the blame when something hardware or software goes wrong.

That's irrelevant*. What matters is labor cost and economies of scale. An IT guy costs $25-50 per hour. If he spends a day researching and ordering parts, assembling them, and testing the new machine, he has spent $200-400 of his employer's money. If one of the parts is incompatible or flaky, it can easily cost twice that. If you're just doing one machine, it can easily cost more than a turnkey machine.

(However it can be economical to build your own cluster. Research, procurement, and compatibility testing are amortized over the whole cluster. Assembly and functional testing costs per-machine, but is pretty cheap.)

* Unless the boss is an asshole. But if he is, everything will always be your fault anyway.

Re:Not a good idea.

[zangdesign]

Part failure? New computer parts rarely fail within the warranty period, in my experience. How much does the service contract from Sun add to the TCO of the machine? If it's even $500 a year, then that money could be better spent on a mirror drive and training.

Re:Not a good idea.

[Chasing Amy]

> New computer parts rarely fail within the warranty period, in my experience.

Erm, tell that to all those people who bought IBM's 75GXP (? IIRC) hard drives. I've also had two brand-new Linksys LNE100TX NICs die within 4 months of purchase, but fortunately that's a cheap part. Which isn't really the point, because many organizations prefer a "conservative" approach to systems acquisition. Like the old saying, "Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM."

Yes, the money *would* be better spent on backup equipment and training, sure. However, depending on what the organization has budgeted, a nice Sun system could have the advantage of CYA, which building a system by hand does not have. If something goes wrong on the Sun machine, it's Sun's fault. If the hardware dies, It's Sun's fault. If the server gets cracked, it's Sun's fault. (At least, these are better excuses).

Whereas, build it yourself and install *nix yourself, and it's your fault. If the hardware dies, it's your fault. If the server gets cracked, it's your fault. Your boss may very well say, "I told you we should have gone with a real vendor..."

DIY systems are best for organizations with very constrained IT budgets, or organizations run by geeks who know the advantages of DIY. An IT manager in a typical company doesn't necessarily know as much as the geeks working for him, and may blame them for choosing DIY instead of a "safe" vendor. Not to mention the regular suits outside the IT department, including bean-counters who may see a server outage on your DIY server, crunch the numbers, and yell at you for not choosing, again, a "safe" vendor for a little bit more money.

"Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" may not be strictly true, and it may be an outdated sentiment, but nonetheless it embodies a certain attitude on behalf of management at many corporations.

Re:Not a good idea.

[zangdesign]

I'd say a University academic department qualifies an organization with a severely constrained budget.

As an OU Student...

[jstarr]

First, I can personally attest that there is a subculture of Unix users at OU (University of Oklahoma) who use Unix extensively. Most people, at least engineers, eventually get acquainted with it. If student employment is a possibility, they can get someone to work on a Unix box. Second, Unix boxes seem to require less maintenance than a Window box; once you have the server up and running, you rarely have to mess with it except for web content changes. Remind him that Apache has greater market penetration that IIS and has a far better history, security-wise, than IIS. Lastly, 'atlas', which runs our mail and OU's web site, is a big Solaris box.

If the guy isn't watching pennies...

[satch89450]

Look here at an IBM server that runs Linux, is supported by IBM, and is a solution that is ready out of the box. Don't like 1U servers? There are other options. Then take a look at the Education page for information on how your institution can use its status to get what it needs.

Prices are higher, but you are buying the support your boss wants.

(I don't work for IBM in any way. One of my clients just moved to IBM solutions and I've been impressed with the service they received on it. Of course, the ISP is running Windows NT...)

You have bigger concerns...

[zulux]

The fact that you know what you're doing, and your boss won't listen or take your advice speaks volumes. You need to *tell* you boss that you know what the best solution is, and if he doesen't have a vaid reason for going with your decision - find gainfull employment elsewhere.

If you *really* know Unix, you can find work easily - in places wheere a $1500 server is cosidered worth it just for experimentation alone.

So unless there are mitigating circumstances - get out of there.

PS: Your *current* website works fine: it meets the goals that really matter: it lets you get information quickly and easily. It appears to be lynx comapatable - so blind people can use it, I imagine.

Re:You have bigger concerns...

[zulux]

Have you any idea how hard it is to find any sort of job in computing ...

Yep - It is quite difficult to find a *typical* job in the IT industry right now.
If you're haveing trouble playing this particular "game*, move on...

Consider starting your own shop...

Start by fixing peoples home computers - charge them $30 a hour and you'll have enough work to make ends meet. One of your customers will reccomend you to their small business - charge them $60 an hour. That small business will reccomend you to others - one of them will be a larger business - charge them $120 an hour. Start hiring empolyees.

That's what I did - my work load went from one old lady to all the work I can stand in 2.5 years. I travel and hike a *lot*,so if you're smart, you can accelrate this time table.

Be proud of your accedemic achievemnts, but get in there and hustle. Look to the immegrent population for insprition - most of them can't speak the native tounge, let alone "four Europoean languages." They hustle and scheme, and start their own businesses when no one else hires them.

You're smart - run with it.

Re:You have bigger concerns...

[z84976]

PS: Your *current* website works fine: it meets the goals that really matter: it lets you get information quickly and easily. It appears to be lynx comapatable - so blind people can use it, I imagine.

Lol, sorry and hope I don't offend anyone, but that PS amused me. How many blind people actually pursue careers as pilots? But I see your point, Lynx compatibility (along with all the rest) IS important. My amateurish gamer site even works fine in lynx!

Re:You have bigger concerns...

[zulux]

How many blind people actually pursue careers as pilots?

Few, but here at my local civil aifeild, there is a gentleman who is legally blind who does stunt flying with a partnern. The sense of freedom probably brings him joy.

I'm not a big fan of overbearing ADA rules - but making the web accesible to blind people is definatly worth the extra effort involved - even if few partake of it.

macintoshes

[trainedCodeMonkey]

Get A G4 with osX server. 1)It's unix, 2)it's user-friendly apple 3)you get support from apple

Re:Webserver

[zangdesign]

Correction: I wouldn't buy from Sun on principle, but that is another matter.

How in the hell is this flamebait? Is there anything that is patently untrue in my statements?

The lowest capacity Netra is $995 plux tax. For about $400, one can match the speed and the storage capacity using off-the-shelf equipment. The rackmount case will add to the cost, but not significantly.

Debian, Mandrake, and even RedHat are available as downloadable ISO's, with the only cost being that of the time spent and bandwidth. Alternately, if you want to dump a few bucks back into the community, the necessary package still only costs $80 max.

The firewall can be configured using any number of utilities available on Sourceforge or other places.

For that matter, you can download or purchase one of the firewall-equipped distro's and still come in under the cost of the Sun hardware alone.

You people are way too sensitive and over the strangest things.

I must question the Sun purchase

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought 4 of those Netra X1 boxes over a year ago for my own department, to host lab computations for a chemistry course. They are nice boxes, with good density (you can cram a lot of 1-U cases in a rack), low power consumption, the serial console management is great, and, of course, Solaris isn't a bad OS.

However, they are meant to be disposable boxes, targeting data centers where it's desireable to add new identical machine as demand increases. That is, you can't upgrade the CPU, the memory tops out at 2GB, max of 2 x 40GB IDE drives, and no external expansion (unless the built-in USB ports can host drives -- yuck). Specs are here if anyone's curious.

We chose the Netras because the chemistry software required Solaris (well, given the choices, we took the Solaris version). I personally would have perferred Linux servers, and since you have the choie, I recommend the same.

Others may say that the support built into machines by the "big players" (IBM, Sun, Compaq, etc.), plus the turn-key state of the machine out of the box, amounts to a non-trivial savings of your time (which equals your employer's money).

I beg to differ.

In addition to many Athlon-based Linux servers, I manage Solaris, AIX, and IRIX machines, each of which either have or have had vendor support. While it's nice to pick up the phone and have either a new part or a service engineer on-site within 4 hours, the bottom line is that these servers need to be back up ASAP. I have found the the comodity-based solution to be better in that respect.

You see, we use a tried-and-true local PC vendor, who builds to order. If a part goes bad, I can have a replacement in an hour or two, unless it is unusually exotic (rare). So commodity wins in hardware matters.

For software issues, I hit Google. I don't want to toot my own horn too much, but if I get stumped by a software issue, I have never had vendor support get me any further than telling me to apply the next service pack (which I end up doing anyway). Maybe I don't push the envelope, but this guy is replacing a web server -- how much will it push the envelope?

Having said all of that, don't compare apples and oranges. High-end servers have they're place. The IBM system I admin waits until I schedule a downtime, most hardware failures be damned. But the yearly maintenance fees alone could by a dozen of the boxes this guys wants to buy. But I think commodity has proven itself, and I'm planning on replacing our IBM NFS server with a Athlon/Linux solution.

Concerning the Windows 2000 competition... It probably would be eaiser to find a replacement admin who could maintain the status quo -- but that's it. Finding someone who really knows their stuff (in NT or UNIX) will take more time and money. But given a choice between an equal UNIX and NT admin, I'd prefer to have the UNIX guy, as I feel the skillset is more valuable -- but that, of course, is only my opinion. Plus, if the machine is properly documented, any competent admin can come in and take over. Technical merits of the OS aside (I prefer UNIX), I'd push Linux as there will never be a license fee and system requirements for Linux don't climb as quickly as NT as the OS progresses (for server boxes -- try running Win2k/IIS on anything less than a Pentium -- though modern Linux desktops suck up resources, too).

Plus if you buy Intel-based hardware and go Linux, you're employer can convert to whatever version of NT is in at the time (provided it doesn't obsolete the hardware -- snicker). You get no such option with Sun hardware (though you can go Linux or *BSD).

To put my long rant into perspective, I got my NT4 MCSE cert in 1997, while I was in charge of a 60-user windows network for 3 years. As stated in my post, I mostly admin UNIX boxes now. While I don't have a grudge against NT, I think the pros of UNIX and Linux outweigh those of NT, especially for server machines.

In a world of risk-averse bosses ...

[ninewands]

the default Unix solution is Solaris running on SPARC hardware. Once it is configured and put into production, it *normally* won't go down unless 1) there is a catestrophic hardware failure, or 2) the power goes out.

I think the Netra would be a pretty good choice for your application unless something (like a /. posting) caused a sudden spike in load, however, it's been my experience that a Sun-branded SPARC box will stagger rather than fall under a load spike.

If you manage to convince your boss to go the Sun route, however, I recommend that you increase your spending plans to allow for maxing out the RAM on the Netra. The UltraSPARC IIe is designed primarily for the imbedded systems market and is also used in the low-end SunBlade 100 workstation. It DEFINITELY benefits from having more RAM to play with, and in a production webserver, 2 GB of RAM is NOT too much.

Re:In a world of risk-averse bosses ...

[green pizza]

The X1 / V100 is a fine server for all but the most extreme loads. As someone that knows some server admins that have dealt with the /. effect, I can honestly tell you that bandwidth is a *MUCH* more limiting factor than CPU performance in a heavyily loaded server... unless your site is driven almost entirely from dynamic cgi (perl / php / etc) software. Even then, your software outta have a cache mechanism for handling tens of millions of requests for essentially the exact same thing.

My take on it...

[Polo]

I've used solaris pretty extensively to manage my own systems at home, and I've found it one of the most stable operating systems around. On sun hardware, it is usually flawless.

If you looked around, I think you could find some intel-based servers that would compare favorably with the sun system on price, especially if you don't need rackmount.

But a lot of problems have been solved with the sun hardware. The best part about the Netra X1 / V100 is that you can control the entire box through the serial port. You can power it up and down and boot it remotely. I've never seen a PC do this to my satisfaction. Other good points include dual ethernet interfaces and registered ecc dram (although it is standard pc memory). I wonder how easy it is to upgrade the disk storage.

However, out of the box, it's not really that secure. I would definitely add a firewall. I think the newer versions of solaris give you a limited firewall. Another option is to install ip_filter. I would then filter out everything but ssh and web services.

Another point I'd make is that since sun stopped supporting solaris x86, I've moved some of my home machines to linux and subscribed to the redhat network. Wow, a lot of things sure got a lot easier. Many services that you would have to install manually on a solaris machine were already there. It came with the latest versions of openssh, sendmail with procmail, apache with SSL, iptables, squid, samba and more. In very little time I had a secure system with everything working. Obscure packages could easily be found and installed, which isn't always the case with solaris. The redhat network ($60/yr) keeps you up to date with package updates and security patches, and there's a utility called 'up2date' that will install them all for you. Heck you can update your kernel remotely - it's much easier than windows.

Re:My take on it...

[friscolr]

you can control the entire box through the serial port. You can power it up and down and boot it remotely. I've never seen a PC do this to my satisfaction.

http://www.realweasel.com/ might be what you're looking for.

Also, Dell's hardware is pretty good. you can get remote management boards for them as well, which allow dialin and let you see bios info, but it's still not OpenBoot PROM. Even so, if i were the original poster i'd wanna get a Dell 1650, put OpenBSD on it and forget it. Sun hardware/software is great for big servers and/or the specialized application, but for small webserving i prefer x86 w/ *bsd or linux (depending on *exact* application).

Another point I'd make is that since sun stopped supporting solaris x86,

they're supposed to be releasing Solaris 9 for x86. there was a /. article about it not too long ago.

I've moved some of my home machines to linux and subscribed to the redhat network. Wow, a lot of things sure got a lot easier. Many services that you would have to install manually on a solaris machine were already there.

9 is also supposed to include openssh (finally!)

also, installing patches on Solaris isn't all that tough. the whole patchdiag process can be easily automated. up2date is *real* easy, but since i'm more used to OpenBSD patching, sometimes i think it's too easy ;-)

Obscure packages could easily be found and installed, which isn't always the case with solaris

that's true. lots of packages are available, though. ibiblio is helpful, as are other websites, for packages. by the way, anyone know where i can get a Falcon's Eye rpm for RH 7.X?

pretty close to the same thing

[green pizza]

The Netra X1 was the original $995 1U server. The Sun V100 is a tad deeper, has an internal CD-ROM drive, uses the same logic board, is also 1U and costs $995. The only other difference I'm aware of is the version of Solaris 8 that is shipped with the two machines -- X1 has stock Solaris 8, V100 also has a bunch of iPlanet ("SunONE") software included. If you opt for Solaris 9, you get everything anyway...regardless if you go X1 or V100. Educational price on the X1 and V100 is $795.

Netra X1 is no more

[dheltzel]

Sun replaced the Netra X1 with the Sunfire V100 (for the same price). It is a great value. I bought one of each for my company. Incidentally, you can add any IDE drive into the system easily and non-Sun RAM works fine. I bought the $995 web special (40 GB HD and 128 MB RAM) and added 2 - 512 MB RAM chips ($299 each) and a WD 120 GB HD ($239) to give me a 64 bit Solaris system with 1.1 GB RAM and 160 GB of disk space for well under $2000, including tax and shipping). It even comes with licenses for Netscape Web Server and other stuff. Mine's running a full install of Oracle RDBMS and 9iAS (both the Enterprise Edition). It's a great development system. It seems like a good choice for non-disk intensive production systems also (not for a production RDBMS, need fast SCSI disks for that).

X1 / V100 disk & cpu performance

[green pizza]

It's very easy to upgrade storage in the X1 / V100... uses basic ATA/66 (or is it ATA/100... don't recall) IDE drives. One major difference between the Sun and a cheap 1U PC is CPU performance... even a 1 GHz PIII is significantly faster than the 500 MHz UltraSPARC IIe. Will you notice the difference depends on your usage. Hell, most of the servers I work on are 75 MHz SuperSPARC and 167 MHz UltraSPARCs... network thruput will be your bottleneck by far... unless *everything* your server dishes up is cgi/perl/php based *and* you're a lousy admin.

As far as security, IMHO it's far better to learn the techniques than to just install something that's supposedly more secure by default. Check out http://fixsolaris.sunhelp.org and/or search Google for securing solaris 8.

The Unix Guide to Defenestration

[plsuh]

Definitely check this book out at its author's site. Plus the links to other articles that Murph has written for LinuxWorld on how to swap out costly and unproductive Windows setups for Unix-driven systems. I don't agree with him 100%, but he's got a lot of useful insights.

--Paul

Buy the Sun

[duffbeer703]

And buy a Gold support contract.

You will pay alot of money for excellent support. If the system breaks and you leave, the tech support people will walk whatever trained monkey replaces you through the problem.

Support IS importatnt

[Beltza]

In all the reactions I have read so far, I only see comments about how wonderful UNIX is and that this specific department should shift.
However, I think that the boss DOES have a big point. The fact that SUN has great service does not mean that this server and its applications are supported. And the fact that you might know somebody who might also be able to support the machines doesnt sound like a solid solution to me.
I would suggest focussing on the support side than on the hardware/OS side. I think your boss trusts your opinion enough to agree that SUN tecnically offers the best solution. What you need to do is to write a proposal about how you are going to find and involve the others, train them and form a support TEAM. Because only a team is able to ensure support. Of course, if you calculate the costs of all this, it might be more than the costs of a Windows box, but for this money youll have a hell of a box and subsequent servers will be a lot cheaper.

Tactics

[smoon]

You could be subversive about the whole thing, e.g.: Get the new site developed in PHP on Linux. Then it makes sense to run it in production on the same platform.

You could play the security card, but it is really a double-edged sword as both Linux and Solaris get a _lot_ of security advisories. The fact that *most* of the time these are fairly minor, or that a distribution with umpteen thousand 3rd party packages such as redhat is bound to have problems and that might be OK is difficult for many to understand. Quite frankly solaris out of the box takes a 'rape me, please' stance on security, although it can be locked down pretty well. Same goes for windows though.

If you're forced to run Windows, it's not the end of the world. You can still run Apache, and you can get the Cygwin distribution to give you all of your nifty *nix commands. Not nearly as clean, nice, etc. as a 'real' unix, but a lot better than vanilla windows.

You might also look at any of the multitude of web server appliances, that just happen to run Linux. E.G.: the cobalt RAQ (currently marketed by SUN). Typically they are managed through a browser, and if your boss isn't too happy about a command-line driven system, perhaps he would be happier with a purpose-made appliance.

Ultimately, *what* you end up running matters a lot less than execution. A well executed Windows system will beat the pants off of a poorly executed *nix system, and vice-versa. Especially vice-versa.

Re:Things I would stress. (one more)

[Neck_of_the_Woods]

Ahh yes very good point. You know that is so true that it has almost become a given. I don't even think about that much anymore. I swing from Solaris to Red Hat now between systems and the only thing that still trips me up now is the ps flags.

Re:Things I would stress. (one more)

[friscolr]

I swing from Solaris to Red Hat now between systems and the only thing that still trips me up now is the ps flags.

on Solaris, put /usr/ucb/ in your PATH before /bin and /usr/bin
but note that /bin/ps seems to run faster than /usr/ucb/ps.

Re:Webserver

[I_redwolf]

That's not the way to build/design or setup a server.. heh. In a real world situation you'd be fired if you pulled something like that.

The Netra X1 has a sparc processor and Sun is world reknowned for their support and quality equipment, except for the fact that the X1 is PCI it's probably a better machine in the long run. Also a firewall probably has nothing to do with this, that depends on network setup and the original poster didn't discuss that. Besides if you were gonna setup a firewall would you really let a utility do it for you?? It's not gonna be anywhere near precise for an enviroment like that. Not only that but setting up a machine properly takes alot of time, it's tedious and boring and thats the job of a system administrator; that and always having a backup plan. Your way, it's 3am in the morning and a HD fails, you have to wait 6 hours to replace it. The right way, it's 3am in the morning and a HD fails, you call Sun, they send someone right over to replace it ASAP around 9am you are already home sleeping.

Re:I did that.

[zulux]

I'm not sure how indicating my study achievements is either arrogant or "self-sure". I was summarising my background, not stating my opinion of myself.

IMO, In this industry, you will find people that will take a liteny of stellar acedemic achievemnts the wrong way. Personally, I've always been impressed more with technical resoursefullness and ability to learn:

example..

I've dropped, repaired and installed the transmission in my car.
I've emailed via satelite at 10,000 feet with my cobbeled together system.
I undertand the STL.
I've written games in 4K, in machine-language for my TRS-80.
I'm diplomatic and have frinds in all contenets save the sothern most.
PICs are fun.
All of my home computers are use IPv6.
I taught myself French. For fun.

etc..

Most people, like me, are interested in the cool things you can do. Of course, this could be my own skewed point of view, due to my complete lack of formal education, and my general disgust for people resting on their laurels.

OU... ick!

[thogard]

How about asking him how many alumni made a fortune in the Unix world vs Windows. I know a few Unix alums that are close to billionares and none of those windows guys that made it.

I wish I could remember the professors name but he taught the people who did BASIC for the 1st time-- I don't think he would have recomeneded windows. But that was long ago when OU tried to hire Donald Knuth but decided not to. It sucks when a state school gets so close to the likes of MIT and Stanford but then again maybe windows 2k is right for your department. Sometimes windows does fit in.

from the incredible-irony department

[BarefootClown]

Incidentally, a few hours after I submitted this story, my Windows server crashed. File system shit itself; box wouldn't boot to save its (or my) life. Tried the boot disk, etc, but I couldn't get it to let me fix the problem.

I love 'doze...