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OpenBSD Hackathon

A secretive reader contributes: "Once again, almost all of the OpenBSD developers got together for a full week of intensive coding. Pictures from the hackathon are available for people who want to see how the developers of this fine OS look like. Theo de Raadt announced on the mailing list: 'There is a reason why such a flurry of commits is happening. Once again, we are doing a hackathon; this time in Calgary, for a full week leading up to usenix. Thus far, 32 people have arrived, and are hacking away in a hotel conference room, working on various things, but more people are still flying in from around the world ...'"

81 comments

  1. ATTN: *BSD is Dying Zealots... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here's proof it aint! hahahahahahaha!!

  2. Yeah, sure by Otter · · Score: 2, Funny
    beck assembling the chair that kjell ordered directly to the hotel

    I dunno -- if it weren't for the parts wrapped in plastic I'd be sure it's actually "chair collapses under weight of OpenBSD hacker".

    Also, of interest "drahn" on a TiBook. Looks like Apple's really making some inroads in the Unix world. OpenBSD doesn't really run on that, does it?

    1. Re:Yeah, sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Bob Beck is cool, really.

      OpenBSD runs on all the latest G4s, iBooks and PowerBooks. If I remember correctly, only sound does not work on the latest ibooks. Support for the gigabit ethernet was just added at the hackathon (before they were supported only in 10 and 100 mode)

    2. Re:Yeah, sure by Tuzanor · · Score: 4, Interesting
      It runs on it very well, check out Brad's computer. He goes to our local BSD user's group and I saw him recompiling a kernel on it. He says there were initially a few hickups but now that more and more developers are getting tibooks its getting better every day. As more and more macs are bought by people, support is only going to get better. OpenBSD has had a PPC port for quite awhile now.

      Brad also said that its only a matter of time before PPC replaces sparc as the second best supported platform (after x86 of course) because so many more people have them.

    3. Re:Yeah, sure by Otter · · Score: 1

      Huh, so it does. Shame on me for not checking before posting, but I had thought that OpenBSD only supported x86 and Alpha. (Must have confused it with FreeBSD.)

    4. Re:Yeah, sure by Tuzanor · · Score: 3, Informative
      yup, its free that runs on only x86 and alpha, though they have ultrasparc and PPC ports in the works. Remember, Open came off NetBSD's codebase, and when theo took it after he left, he took many of the more practical archs.

      When theo was with NetBSD he was the maintainer of the sparc port! There is talk of Open abandoning some of the older archs, though. Such as the older 68K's, the older HP archs, and such. They take up space on the CDs, plus SSH doesn't work very fast on them, either ;-)

    5. Re:Yeah, sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yes, the bastard tried to steal my chair,
      but we like him anyway. ;)

      -kj

    6. Re:Yeah, sure by CowboyNea1 · · Score: 0

      For some reason I thought that the internal modem on my iBook (500 Mhz white iBook) wasn't supported for OpenBSD. Does anyone have any knowledge of this, or is there a fix for this yet? It's the only thing keeping me from running it this incredible OS.

    7. Re:Yeah, sure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's awfully mean. I hope that you appologize.

      George

  3. The amount of CVS commits is impressive... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've been watching the CVS commit logs since the beginning of this event - number of bugs getting fixed and new features being added is very impressive.

    I especially like that more and more daemons loose their setgid and setuid privileges - great step towards improving the security.

    1. Re:The amount of CVS commits is impressive... by mirabilos · · Score: 1

      You ought to check out the number of commits
      _before_ and _after_ the event, too.
      Sometimes it's only few, but it can be impressive,
      too.

      --
      My Karma isn't excellent, damn it! (And /. still does not get UTF-8 right in 2012. Wow.)
  4. Just give me SMP. by watchmaker1 · · Score: 2, Informative
    I had made a choice to leave linux for OpenBSD.

    It works VERY well. The cvs-update-and-compile method of system maintenance is astonishingly useful. I love everything about OpenBSD.... except one.

    There is no SMP support. There is a cvs branch for SMP development, but after a year the only thing it does is RECOGNIZE the second CPU. It doesnt actually do anything with it.

    So, I'm about to build a new server, SMP, and I have two choices. I can run OpenBSD on one CPU hoping for the day I can reboot and have the second fire up, or I can run Gentoo linux, which has all the cvs-and-compile chocolaty goodness of BSD, but will do SMP.

    FreeBSD has smp. I believe NetBSD has smp. Darwin has SMP. OpenBSD doesn't. With SMP hardware so cheap (At least on the i386 side) it's ludicrous that it's not in there.

    1. Re:Just give me SMP. by Tuzanor · · Score: 3, Informative
      NetBSD's SMP is not yet very mature. The reason for the slow SMP development is that none of the main developers are working on it. Theo said that his main priority right now is geting more crypto cards working. He has said that he would like to work more on SMP, but he isn't god and he just doesn't have time.

      All good things come to those who wait. When SMP does come to OpenBSD, it will be done right and we will get stable, secure code for it!

    2. Re:Just give me SMP. by watchmaker1 · · Score: 2
      I guess it's just a matter of priorities.

      I think of OpenBSD as a great secure place to run Apache and MySQL and postfix.

      Theo and the core think of it as a crypto swiss army knife. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

      SMP done wrong is worse than no SMP at all, I heartily agree. While I understand that it's important for some, having some freaky new crypto card implemented while I have a processor spinning idly doesnt fill me with glee.

      I'm not one of those guys who bitches about what OpenBSD hasn't done for me. It's an amazing piece of work and that it was created largely for free by a group of itinerant hackers is more astounding to me than you can imagine. I am not a kernel hacker, so I don't have the ability to do it myself. But the fact that it's so ubiquitous elsewhere makes me wish it were a higher priority.

    3. Re:Just give me SMP. by spunkykuma · · Score: 2, Interesting

      NetBSD does not have SMP, but only as a branch in the -current kernel tree just as you see in OpenBSD. Infact, OpenBSD spawned off of NetBSD years ago and both are MOSIX based. A couple of us has gotten SMP working at the kernel-level but at userspace-level it is still useless, I personally think SMP is overrated but is useful in heavy applications such as SQL.
      At the moment, FreeBSD does have SMP, but realistically I've found Linux's SMP best on an ix86, that's just my opinion (yeah flame me :) ).

    4. Re:Just give me SMP. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Other option:

      Code your own support.

    5. Re:Just give me SMP. by mirabilos · · Score: 2, Informative

      You can checkout a copy of the OpenBSD
      tree for SMP with
      # cvs co -PrSMP src/sys
      (with appropiate CVSROOT)

      I think it actually compiles and probably
      works on dual Pentium Pro systems, for
      example, but don't expect much stability.

      CPU isn't such a big issue anyways, the
      RAM size _and_ speed are much more inte-
      resting with regards to unix-like OS,
      interesting enough this is valid for
      NT 5 a.k.a. Win2k, in contrast to Win9x,
      too.

      The SMP support is not in the works because
      the developers are too busy doing other things
      (such as getting UBC to work...) - but if you
      have C skills and read the style(9) man page,
      your contributions will be welcome.

      --
      My Karma isn't excellent, damn it! (And /. still does not get UTF-8 right in 2012. Wow.)
    6. Re:Just give me SMP. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are wrong (as almost always, here and on misc@).

      1. SMP is not working. The fact that SMP branch compiles does not mean a thing - it was answered many, many times on the mailing lists. Search the archives. Second CPU is brought to life for a fraction of a second - it prints "Reporting for duty". That's the only thing it can do now.

      2. C skills and style(9) have absolutely NOTHING to do with ability to make SMP support a reality - you need to study theory for a few years first (such as math and SMP processing in general)

    7. Re:Just give me SMP. by mirabilos · · Score: 1

      [ Mail me so I at least know who you are.
      Fefe isn't, he doesn't read misc@ ;) ]

      That SMP is only in that baaad state was not
      posted on misc@ since/when I read it. I only
      knew that it was existing and how it is being
      updated. However, there _is_ SMP.

      And I know about the tries to load the crypto
      off to the second CPU, too.

      And I never said that knowing C and KNF is
      _enough_ to make SMP working, but I told
      that it is at least needed... you know?
      That's what, in German Math class, is called
      "hinreichend" (like enough, may be too many) and
      "notwendig" (translates to necessary, but may
      not even be one percent of what really is needed...)

      You understand what I mean? Else, please MAIL
      me and don't flame here.

      --
      My Karma isn't excellent, damn it! (And /. still does not get UTF-8 right in 2012. Wow.)
    8. Re:Just give me SMP. by watchmaker1 · · Score: 1
      Well, sort of. When I last checked the SMP tree on cvs, it would report both CPU's, but not actually dispatch any processes to the second one.

      And, yes, RAM and disk are bottlenecks, though with a gig of PC2700 DDR and Ultra320 drives, they arent much of a bottleneck.

      Each time someone mentions SMP and OpenBSD, someone invariably says "You don't need that." And for the majority, you'd be right. Most consumers and even mid level users don't need it.

      But there are those of us who could benefit. High volume net services such as big hit apache, large volume postfix, and the like will benefit from being spread across multiple CPU's in my experience. MySQL will take advantage of native threading if it's there and span processors, and gain some scalability.

      I'm currently doing alot of work with XML and generating web pages on the fly with XSP and taglibs and running them through real time XSLT translation. Under high volume, two processors are better than one.

    9. Re:Just give me SMP. by fdisk3hs · · Score: 2, Informative

      So use FreeBSD or NetBSD. NetBSD's kernel is very similar to OpenBSD (getting less so all the time), but it's still BSD. I'm using FreeBSD, I like the way the kernel runs (different feel from Linux, big jobs don't hog the whole system). If you like OpenBSD, then I would recommend the NetBSD, since OpenBSD is fruit from NetBSD's tree (thus the number of ports to other platforms compared to FreeBSD).

      Also, if you like having utter control over the system without weeding unwanted 'stuff', you can't beat a 'BSD.

    10. Re:Just give me SMP. by watchmaker1 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I'm with you.

      I have a dual machine at home (An old beat up dual Celeron 366 Abit BP6) running FreeBSD 4.4. I had problems with it. It seems every time I tried to cvs update my ports tree to get such things as sudo, it would blow up the tree so badly I'd have to remove it and cvs get it again. That happened three times.

      I never upgraded it to 4.5, as I worried it would blow the whole damn thing up and I'd lose my 30gig of mp3's. It runs decent with 4.4 as a samba server and running the streamer portion of my personal icecast server (piped through libmp3lame to downsize the mp3's to 96k/sec CBR).

      I had grown tired of Linux distributions. Redhat insists on installing all sorts of useless crap, I have never gotten debian to work right for me (I just want to compile my own perl without apt continually trying to install it's own, is that too much to ask?). I installed OpenBSD 3.0 on a spare box in December and never looked back.

      It works better than FreeBSD, for me, and is nicely tunable just the way I like it. I didn't need linux, this was the way to go.

      Now that I'm looking at a new server, possibly to get big hits, I want SMP. Gentoo linux is linux done the BSD way. ports, cvs updates, slim. I've now got the choice between Gentoo with SMP and OpenBSD without. Since it's going to be aimed at MySQL and will have pf or iptables rules limiting access to the net at large, I'm not incredibly concerned with the security as I would be if this was a shell box. I'll have the only login. I'm torn. I love OpenBSD, but I think my needs may be better met with Gentoo at this juncture.

    11. Re:Just give me SMP. by wilton · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I heard an interesting rumour about OpenBSD's planned SMP support.

      Apparently they were going to arrange it so that one CPU would be doing the normal OS stuff and the other CPU would just do crypto work.

      This sounds simple and effective. Whilst not true SMP, it would make the machine faster, and use both CPUs.

      --
      per mere, per terras
    12. Re:Just give me SMP. by someonehasmyname · · Score: 1

      have you made sure to specify "tag=." for each port category?? ie: "ports-all tag=." Otherwise, it will remove all the ports, and re-download all of them.

      --
      Common sense is not so common.
    13. Re:Just give me SMP. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Derived from what? MOSIX? Then it would be true that OpenBSD and NetBSD are derived from Linux.

    14. Re:Just give me SMP. by castlan · · Score: 1

      I agree with most of your sentiments. One disagreement I have concerns Debian, as it truly is it's own OS which just happens to use Linux, as opposed to being a standard "Linux distribution." If your little spat with Debian about who gets to play with Perl is the only thing you had against her, then perhaps you should give it another look. All you need to do is put Perl on "hold", and Debian will bite her lip and keep her hands to herself.

      A large part of Debian is the policies, which illustrate the commonly accepted "best practices" which would alleviate this problem you have with your system repeatedly "blowing up." If you like, you can still go about things your own way, but you need to inform the system so that it doesn't step on your toes.

      That means that you should compile your own Perl in /usr/local, so that the system will never touch it, and leave the system's /usr/perl alone, as it is a vital compenent of much of the Debian system's functionality. It wouldn't necessarily be a good idea to have the standard /usr/perl be a different version then it expects to find.

      If you insist on only having your version in the standard location, then tell the package manager not to meddle with Perl by placing the package on "Hold" and it won't ever try to upgrade it for you again. Use apt-set, or dselect ot aptitude if you would prefer a GUI.

      Even though you arent incredibly concerned with security, I would still advise against keeping a compiler on any public box. While 4.4BSDs and Gentoo simplify package compilation, only using precompiled packages can be more secure in a public box. The ideal solution from a security perspective might be to compile your version of Perl into a .dpkg on a different machine, and then install the onto your Internet MySQL box. This way APT knows what version of Perl it has, and can satisfy dependancies to and from Perl appropriately. It can still tell you when a newer (bug-fixed) version is available, and you can either tell it to "Hold" or to upgrade itself.

      Of course, Debian's policies and documentation still aren't as thorough as that of the 4.4BSD derivatives in most cases, so maybe that would be a better way to go. Debian does offer source through the APT system, and the BSDs offer precompiled packages in many cases. Gentoo's BSD make-like system would be great for a developer box that needed SMP, but I don't know that I'd trust it to the public, unless I could keep up-to-date (security wise) with every installed component.

      If I were you, I'd just use OpenBSD on the SMP system until it is clear that the CPU load really needs use of both CPU's. When that becomes clear, either OpenBSD will have more SMP functionality (not likely), you and Debian will get along (if you give it another shot) or you can just go with FreeBSD if all else fails.

      Either way, good luck, I hope this was helpful. And please invest in a backup system that won't "blow up".

      P.S.
      Personally, Between OpenBSD and Debian, the two best representatives on the two different view of "freedom", I really can't see the need for any other free Unix. Of course, choice is usually good.

    15. Re:Just give me SMP. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > "hinreichend" (like enough, may be too many)

      > "notwendig" (translates to necessary, but may
      not even be one percent of what really is needed...)

      Those are usually translated as "sufficient" and (as you noted) "necessary". (e.g., differentiability is sufficient but not necessary for continuity, and continuity is necessary but not sufficient for differentiability)

      (And yes, I know this is off topic)

    16. Re:Just give me SMP. by mirabilos · · Score: 1

      Thank you anyways. If he seems to know me by mail,
      I'd rather dispute with him (whoever it is) by mail
      instead of being accused of things on /. by ACs.

      And it's not _that_ off-topic, though...

      --
      My Karma isn't excellent, damn it! (And /. still does not get UTF-8 right in 2012. Wow.)
    17. Re:Just give me SMP. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah good spot for your post, one where no one will answer it... Why don't you go and ask Theo why there is no SMP support.

    18. Re:Just give me SMP. by thallgren · · Score: 1

      Strange problem you've got there. Are you sure you don't have some hardware problems? I have an ABit BP6 with 2 366MHz Celerons and it works just fine under FreeBSD 3.0-4.6

    19. Re:Just give me SMP. by friscolr · · Score: 3, Informative
      just read the mail list archives. there was talk about all this a few weeks ago.

      i think one of the threads about this started with http://www.monkey.org/openbsd/archive/misc/0205/ms g01351.html or http://www.monkey.org/openbsd/archive/misc/0205/th reads.html#01351 for the full thread of that one.

      SMP is really useful, but there are also a myriad applications where it's unnecessary.

    20. Re:Just give me SMP. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      too bad about all those kernel forks eh?
      seems like if everyone got together, the kernel would be a lot further along...

      can't complain about the networking though ;-)

  5. I'm taking bets... by Hee+Hee+Hee · · Score: 1

    I'm taking bets that the site showing "Pictures from the hackathon" won't get Slashdotted. Who's in?

    --
    - Bill
    1. Re:I'm taking bets... by mirabilos · · Score: 2

      hin and jsyn committed their pictures to the
      CVS rep and you can get it for free ;-)

      # cvs -qd anoncvs@<favourite mirrot> co -PA www

      --
      My Karma isn't excellent, damn it! (And /. still does not get UTF-8 right in 2012. Wow.)
    2. Re:I'm taking bets... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey, sounds good. You're right: Who'd wanna see pictures of a nerd herd like that?

      I'm in. Put me down for 25.

  6. Yeah... by arrow · · Score: 1

    ...If OpenBSD continues like this we will see new buzzwords emerge in the underground and ThinkGeek selling tshirts that say "Got Nobody?"

    --
    symetrix. We are building a religion, a limited edition.
  7. Line this baby up for primetime by linzeal · · Score: 1

    Put this on the frontpage, please. Thank you.

  8. *BSD BLING BLING by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It is officia l; Netcra ft confirm s: *BSD is d
    ying O ne more cripp ling bombshell h it the a
    lready beleag ue red *BSD c ommunity when ID C
    confir med t hat *BSD m arket share has
    droppe d y e t again , now down to le
    ss than a f racti on of 1 perce
    nt of all s erv ers. Coming
    on the he e l s of a recen
    t Netcraf t survey whic
    h plainly s tates that
    *BSD has l o s t m ore marke
    t share, t h is n ews serve
    s to rein fo rc e what we'v
    e known a l l a long. *BS
    D is coll a psing in com
    plete di sa rray, as fitt
    ingl y exe m plified by f a
    ilin g d ead last [samag
    .co m] in the recent S
    ys A dm in comprehensi v
    e n e tworking test.
    You don't need to be
    a K reskin [amdest.
    co m] to predict *BSD
    's & #9617; future. The hand wr
    iti ng is on the wall:
    *BSD f aces a bleak futu
    re. In f act there won't be
    a ny futur e at all for *BSD b
    eca use *B SD is dying. Thing
    s are l ook ing very bad for *
    BSD. As m an y of us are alread
    y aware, * BSD c ontinues t o los
    e market s har e. Red ink flows l
    ike a river o f blood. F reeBSD
    is the mos t e ndangered o f them
    all, havin g l & #9617; ost 93% of its co
    re develop ers. T he sudden and u
    npleasa nt depa rtures of long
    time F r eeBSD deve
    lop ers Jo rdan H
    ubb a rd and M ik
    e S m it h on ly
    se rve t o un der
    sc ore t he p
    oin t m ore c
    lea rly. Th & #9617; ere c an
    no l onger be a ny doubt: F reeB
    SD is dy ing. Let's keep to the f acts an
    d look at t he numbers. Open BSD leader Theo st


    1. Re:*BSD BLING BLING by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      was that '/usr/local/etc/rc.d/trollbackd start' or what?

  9. The remaining few by mirabilos · · Score: 2, Interesting

    For what it's worth, this was not much but a re-post
    of a mail from Theo de Raadt, the OpenBSD leader,
    to the "misc" mailing list.

    The remaining few hackers were either representing
    OpenBSD (and BSD in general) at the German LinuxTag
    in Karlsruhe (Wim Vandeputte, the "leader" for Europe,
    and (more unknown) Christian Weisgerber and me...

    And one was unable to get a passport from the
    French authorities - seems as they are jealous
    to the German bureaucracy ;-)

    --
    My Karma isn't excellent, damn it! (And /. still does not get UTF-8 right in 2012. Wow.)
    1. Re:The remaining few by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > more unknown Christian Weisgerber ???

      bah... He is one of two guys who make the ports tree usable...

    2. Re:The remaining few by mirabilos · · Score: 1

      Yup... *hides*
      but his name isn't read that often, my impression.

      However, on news:de.comp.os.unix.bsd he is _the_
      most helpful person wrt OpenBSD...

      --
      My Karma isn't excellent, damn it! (And /. still does not get UTF-8 right in 2012. Wow.)
    3. Re:The remaining few by dadragon · · Score: 1

      However, on news:de.comp.os.unix.bsd he is _the_ most helpful person wrt OpenBSD...

      That's only because I can't speak German :)

      --
      God save our Queen, and Heaven bless The Maple Leaf Forever!
  10. hrmm.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Where's all the chics?

    1. Re:hrmm.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You don't think they are staring that intently at code do you? The chics are on the screens of those luvly new laptops, as would be true for red-blooded geeks everywhere...

  11. CVS and commits by gruntvald · · Score: 1

    Theo's comment suggests that commits to the core CVS are being done during this event - that's an impressive application of technology, if so. I wonder how this is funded. Still, you have to admire the singlemindedness of the team.

    1. Re:CVS and commits by fdisk3hs · · Score: 1

      Huh? Volunteers, BYOG (gear). Have fun. That's how it's funded... I'm jealous of some of that gear... Makes me want to get a few laptops, a new DVD drive, etc...

    2. Re:CVS and commits by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Theo's comment suggests that commits to the
      > core CVS are being done during this event

      Yes, that is basically the purpose of gathering - to get a lot of work done in a short period of time. Last year they put PF into the source tree during their hackathon, this year they are fixing bugs and adding new features. It's much easier to communicate and exchange ideas while sitting next to each other instead of being on the opposite sides of the Earth.

      > - that's an impressive application of technology, if so. I wonder how this is funded.

      CD and T-shirt sales, monetary and hardware donations from companies and idividuals, great support from the University of Alberta (hosting main www and ftp site), US government grants, etc.

    3. Re:CVS and commits by glitchvern · · Score: 1
      US government grants

      I always thought it was funny that the work could not be done in the US for legal reasons, but that we fund it.
  12. Mountain Dew by dadragon · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'm noticing a lot of Mountain Dew in those pictures, so that inspired me to ask:

    Did somebody smuggle a shitload of the stuff from the states, or are hackers working while drinking a beverage with no caffiene or alcohol?

    For thoses that don't know, Canadian laws prohibit adding caffiene to any fruit flavoured drink (ergo MD here has no caffiene).

    --
    God save our Queen, and Heaven bless The Maple Leaf Forever!
    1. Re:Mountain Dew by brsett · · Score: 1

      For thoses that don't know, Canadian laws prohibit adding caffiene to any fruit flavoured drink (ergo MD here has no caffiene).

      Oh My God! I can't even think of a Canada crack I'm so in shock. Mt Dew is simply caffeine flavor, without caffeine,, MD would taste like water. Damn Canadians.

    2. Re:Mountain Dew by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't worry, they compensated by stuffing it with so much granulated sugar that you can actually hear it crunching between your teeth ;>

      Incidentally, Mountain Dew's number one ingredient, other than sugar of course, is water..which the U.S. will probably be using its world police to tear out of the hands of Canadian provinces any day now. Damn Amerikkkans.

    3. Re:Mountain Dew by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the company in question has been trying hard to get the law changed for years now. How are they suppose to get the kiddies to drink it if they can't use large doses of an additive substance?

      If they could get away with it they'd be spiking it with nicotine

    4. Re:Mountain Dew by Tuzanor · · Score: 2

      We make it up with our beer (which has more alcohol). So stop crying.

    5. Re:Mountain Dew by Strog · · Score: 1

      Seems like more Coke in the pictures than MD but plenty of each.

    6. Re:Mountain Dew by frantzen · · Score: 1

      yaya. i fucked up and bought two cases of dew and two cases of coke. then the canadians told me about the caffeine thingy.

      but there is a starbucks in the first floor of the hotel

    7. Re:Mountain Dew by dadragon · · Score: 1

      yaya. i fucked up and bought two cases of dew and two cases of coke. then the canadians told me about the caffeine thingy.

      Well, you won't waste any more money on that, now will you? You could, of course, go to a drug store and buy caffiene pills to dissolve in said Dew.

      but there is a starbucks in the first floor of the hotel

      Ick! Starbucks, I don't like starbucks, I lived in Calgary during school last year and didn't like it too much. I like having the small roasteries and coffee shops here (Saskatoon, 630KM NEE of Calgary) with wireless net access and wall outlets :)

      --
      God save our Queen, and Heaven bless The Maple Leaf Forever!
    8. Re:Mountain Dew by BrainInAJar · · Score: 1

      Canadian laws prohibit adding caffiene to any fruit flavoured drink

      Untrue. It USED to be illegal to add caffeine to things unless it was a natural part of the manufacturing process. They have since repealed that law. Now it's a PR thing. Canadian types have come to think of mountain dew as a caffeine free alternative drink (like sprite or 7-up)

  13. Well, look at Theo's desk :) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    1. Re:Well, look at Theo's desk :) by dadragon · · Score: 1

      Pil and Coke, even. But no MD. Pil is good, it's an aquired taste that you develop when you live west of Ontario :)

      Coke is a good source of caffiene. Pil is a good source of booze, but not as good as some Euro beer, or Crown. Crown is good when mixed with just about anything.

      --
      God save our Queen, and Heaven bless The Maple Leaf Forever!
    2. Re:Well, look at Theo's desk :) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, Theo's a big Pil drinker..

    3. Re:Well, look at Theo's desk :) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, Pil is a HORRIBLE source of booze
      But we bought it to go with the total white trash
      tarp setup we erected in Theo's backyard for the BBQ.

      -kj

  14. Re:Slashdotters, here's some advice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    couldn't have said it better myself

  15. Re:Mountain Dew and nicotine by castlan · · Score: 1

    If they could get away with it?

    I don't know about Canada, but the US FDA doesn't seem to have much of a problem with Nico Water being sold. It is touted as a supplement rather than a drug, which has anti-tobacco groups up in arms.

    That doesn't really make sense to me, because it truly is a healthier alternative to smoking, and virtually eliminates the possibility of second hand smoke. If you really wanna strech, perhaps a truckload of this stuff could dump into some groundwater, or you might accidentally spill a bottle on somebody leading to dermal absorption - but those idiots should give it a rest. It is even labeled against sale to minors.

    If they really need something to protest about, why aren't they protesting the fluoride water whive I've seen for sale. This shit is actually targeted at children, and it never got FDA approval either. Tabacco is carcinogenic because of the other hundred some toxins - while nicotine can be dangerous, it is far less toxic than the industrial waste known as fluoride. That fluoride products can be marketed to children is criminally irresponsible, especially in light of the "Camel Joe" fiasco.

  16. Damn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I look at the pics posted and I see myself in there. You know, slightly overweight, facial hair, balding a bit, staring at a damn console, and loving it. Geeks are sad, yet I am one.

  17. Re:More appropriate response.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Canada has a homeland security too?? or are you forgetting this is in Calgary?

  18. Re:More appropriate response.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not really...
    but we do have Privacy Commissioners that get press, and give government and corporations shit from time to time. Now if they only had teeth

  19. Re:Mountain Dew and nicotine by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dude Your teeth need fluoride and YES I now it is most tooth pastes but You don't ingest any of it. Vitam A can kill you if you take to much. ADA if you don't get enough fluoride your Teeth will decay. However I wonder If the HIGH amount of fluoride in most US teeth pastes is good for you.

  20. The value of Fluoride. by castlan · · Score: 1

    Thank you for the link. Although you probably won't see this response as an AC, I will respond because you bothered to use a link.

    As stated in the article, fluoride is naturally occuring. As a result of industrialization, there is now more fluoride in the environment (air, water and foods) then any recomended minimum set by the FDA. Note that the FDA has not done any studies on the effects of Fluoride since the WWII era, when nuclear weapons factories started producing the flouride byproduct.

    As stated in the first paragraph of the ADA article, Flouride only occurs in counpounds. Naturally occuring fluoride which is good for the teeth is better called "Calcium Fluoride". Why does the ADA recommend just "fluoride" even after admitting that there is no such molecule? So that they can get paid off by industries who can now easily dispose of their toxic wastes, specifically "Sodium Fluoride" and "Potassium Fluoride".

    Vitamin C is water soluble, so that excess ascorbic acid can fairly easily be expelled from the body as liquid waste, making it very difficult to take a harmful dose. Vitamin A is fat soluble, and like many dieters can attest, it is much more difficult to excrete excess fat. If too much Vitamin A builds up before the body can properly excrete it, that too can be harmful. Sodium Fluoride harms your organs at much lower dosages, and build up in your bones. Bone matter tends not to be excreted, so fluoridosis is a cumulative danger. The very bones and teeth that (Calcium) fluoride was supposed to protect instead become mottled and brittle. Hell, why do you think it is so important not to ingest toothpaste?

    Your body need to ingest nutrients systemically to utilize them beneficially. Topical toothpaste applications are minimally harmful if swallowing is minimized. Adulterating the water supply on the otherhand, is insidious exploitation of misinformation that directly harms public health.

  21. This truck is so coool by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  22. makes me wonder by 1lus10n · · Score: 0

    you know when i read things like this it kind of makes me wonder which really is better linux/*bsd i mean linux has the commercial side over BSD but when you strip it down which one really is better ? i mean i am a linux junkie, never used BSD but this makes me wanna go get openBSD 3.1 just for fun...... only thing is i cant find any ISO's too download

    --
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." --Albert Einstein