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Used Books: An Actual Internet Success Story
theodp writes: "An Actual Internet Success Story explains how, in just a few years, the Internet has transformed the world into a huge marketplace for used books, utterly transforming a business that had gone pretty much unobserved for centuries. The Net has changed how we buy and think about books - someone in Illinois can easily buy a cheap used hardback over the Net from a New York dealer, read it and then resell it to someone in California, having spent, in effect, only a few dollars. According to the story, the increase in the number of used books sold is staggering, maybe 100 times what it was in 1995, and now accounts for more than 15 percent of Amazon's sales. Tales are told of used book dealers lining up nine hours before a library sale to get 'free money,' cutting deals with thrift-store managers and library-sale organizers to avoid 'feeding frenzy' fights, volunteering at the Salvation Army to get first dibs on donations, and offering review copies for half price on the Net weeks before a book is even published."
Ahh yes, but then the book companies can complain about the used book market stealing money from their pockets. I wonder when the selling of used books will become illegal.
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# Modus Ponens
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Three or four comic book stores in the Orlando area went out of business quickly about 2 years ago. While scrounging for stuff, I got to speak with the owners and they ALL had the same story.
They made more money in one month selling their inventory on Ebay than they did in a year selling inthe "real" world. They pointed out all the really good stuff was gone, and I wasn't going to find what I was looking for.
All were quite happy with the situation and planned to continue selling at online auctions.
A side note is that in the last week I've sold 5 books on Amazon that I no longer wanted. I got decent money, too, not like the $1 or so at a garage sale. I *HATE* throwing books out -- they need to go to a good home.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
I think that this is partially off. For the most part, it is correct that many people are able to buy/sell/trade in the "global marketplace" whereas they could not before. However, used bookstores have been around for a long long time, and they always seem to have a good selection, even in small towns. I can only see the "specialty" market actually being helped by this. Its only the lazy people who order groceries from the web and don't want to go down to the local used book store to look around.
A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin
One thing I absolutely love on the net is the chance to go someplace like Amazon, E-bay, or www.thewantad.com and find something oscure that I am looking for.
.com everything might have overloaded people with the notion that get online and you will find piles of useless companies that don't belong there, but it never really hit the sites like e-bay hard.
I have always been someone that likes to buy good stuff, but it's not always economically feasible. Of course, buying a great couch online from Oregon isn't the best idea when you live in New England, but these types of sites are there if you want to do it.
The strength of this scenario is that it is exactly the type of marketplace the net is suited for.
I guess I am saying I am a big fan of this, whether it be books or anything else. It's a great form of recycling when one man's junk becomes another's treasure.
This is because the book publishers have embraced the internet and allowed the new technology and their industry to naturally merge together into something beneficial for everybody.
On the other hand the music and movie industries seem to be doing the exact opposite. Example - Stephen King's + Scott Adams E-Books. Publishers embrace the technology and don't try to make money with lawyers. I doubt the RIAA will learn a lesson however.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
I really hate getting a used book that someone has taken a highlighter to. The light yellow/green/pink really distracts my eye when trying to concentrate. Even worse when the previous owner has a really bad highlighting technique. Far less annoying are the standard food stains/coffee cup marks, even when half the book in stained.
Anyone know of any online bookstores that at least check a few pages of used books for highlighter marks and the like, and mention if they found any in the book description?
:^)
Ryan Fenton
if it wasn't for Ebay and Bibliofind (now part of Amazon) I never would have been able to find copies of my father's book and my grandmother's book.
CDE open sourced! https://sourceforge.net/projects/cdesktopenv/
I would love to buy things in online auctions - except that invariably, some obsessive-compulsive type halfway across the continent is willing to bid half their net worth for whatever it is I'm looking for. My upper bidding limit (and I don't think I'm being cheap) is often a fraction of what the latest top bid is...
The good thing of course, is that this benefits sellers, and thus encourages a thriving auction market. If I can't afford to bid on an item that I can't get locally anyway, I guess nobody's hurt by that. The downside, as you say is that the often financially risky proposition of running a "brick-and-mortar" physical storefront somewhere is not as compelling for would-be retailers. So collectible items like comic books etc. may become completely unavailable, except online and in very large cities. One of the two local gaming/comic shops in my city just closed down to become a strictly online business (putting at least one fangirl out of work in the process...)
Freedom: "I won't!"
I disagree. In fact, I happen to like the musty smell of older books. I prefer to shop at this little hell hole in Bowling Green, OH called "Pauper's Books". The place is an absolute disaster. There are books stacked (or piled I guess would be the best description) all over the place, the shelves are filled w/random books that students have sold to them over the years and that they have collected.
I found 25 books for less than $7 and they were in good enough condition to read them.
There is no disrespect to the author's time/effort when you are buying a book that is old and tattered. In fact, I believe if the author cared that much about the condition of the book itself and not the contents of that book then he was writing for the COMPLETE wrong reason.
My favorite part of "Pauper's" is the fact that they have a Commodore64 (brown, non-C) in a box in the middle of the store stacked on top of a bunch of other shit.
Ahhh, musty smells, Commodores, and Piers Anthony, takes me back, way back.
It's not about the physical mainfestation of the book, it's about the words and thoughts and ideas the author is communicating. I'd be willing to bet most authors would rather have people share their books and re-read them and really love them than pamper them and be afraid to read it one more time for fear of hurting it.
When I read a book, I'm brutal to it, that's just my way. I fold pages and highlight things that really move me, and I really don't think the authors would think that I'm being disrespectful.
Like I said, I wouldn't ever be critical of some one like you taking great care of the book, but you really have no right to be critical of the way others treat their books.
Vote Quimby.
Because if you mail only published materials (books, magazines, etc.) than you pay a much reduced price.
Do other nations do this?
How long before the USPS, in an effort to gain more revinue, rids itself of the discount to mailing books?
On a side note, I get free Amazon gift certificates because of the credit card I use. I can't apply it toward used anything, but I rack up enough points to get new stuff as fast as I can read it. (I don't think this offer exists for new customers anymore... but it couldn't hurt to try/ask)
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Bookfinder used to be the king of used book searches. It would search all the other sides like Albris, Half, ABE, Amazon, B&N, Powells and others. But now it's a sad shadow of it's former self. Somehow it's data is now long outdated, like it's only updated once a month or worse.
So now you need to search all those sites manually to be sure to find a particular book.
I start with Amazon to find the book and get the ISBN, and make note of Amazon's used price.
Then I look at Half (because it's so damn easy! and I trust the eBay ratings system). Usually the best place for recent books.
Then the dreaded ABEbooks where it's a zillion little dealers, each with their own shipping rates, and method of payment. ABE is what used book buying via email and BBS used to be like (except now we have PayPal).
I was amazed to find the best price via Bibliofind even though it's a branch of Amazon. Seems Bibliofind searches ZSHOPS, while the normal page in Amazon didn't list the ZSHOP copy. The best price I found anywhere else was over $40 (for a less than 10 year old Del Rey paperback!). The ZSHOP price? $2.50! Yes! The joy of buying used.
Of course the shipping kind of kills those wonderful deals. Nothing could beat walking out of a used bookstore with huge stack of paperbacks for $20 ($1 to $2 a book). Thats how you really discover authors (and accumulate shelf after shelf of stuff you will never get around to reading).
I wouldn't be celebrating. Capitalism may be working, but book fans are getting ripped off.
This is my experience: I have been adding to my Robert Anton Wilson collection lately. In case you aren't familiar with him, he has written a large number of important and controversial books [fiction,non-fiction,fantasy]. He was also the senior editor at Playboy during the late 70's. Most of his books have been through multiple printings by various publishers. Two or three years ago I could have purchased any of his books in paperback for under $10. Now price-gouging season has begun. Some of my recent quotes: $25, $60, etc... These are prices for used paperbacks less than twenty years old. I lent and lost a copy of The Earth Will Shake a few years ago, but now I can buy a used copy for $65--I spent $10 for a new copy about five years ago.
I lamented this just the other day while in the local bookstore. Then the owner gave me some inside information: the book seller has been hoarding Robert Anton Wilson books with the help of the web. He has nearly monopolized this particular market; now he sells a small number each week for his cash flow.
That's my beef with capitalism. The "market" (really: anticipation of future sales) has caused a product to become scarce. Hence the outrageous prices. In the meantime it is impossible--without enough disposable income--to find most books written by this contemporary author. I don't doubt that the internet has opened up a lot of readers to a lot of authors, but the speculators are creating a scenario not unlike the end result of censorship.
So yes, it does piss off the book publishers. It also pisses off people who would like to buy books for a fair price to read them [newsflash: original purpose of books is for reading!].
"What is the sound of one belly slapping?"
That we've reached the situation where there is a sufficient concentration of idiocy, arrogance and financial interest to push for the removal or truncation of first sale rights on items that contain content, including books?
I know it sounds insane, but bear with me. I'm thinking about the Elcomsoft judge, and his assertion that because you can transcribe an eBook by hand, that satisfies the right to copy it in part for fair use rights of quotation, and in whole for eventually putting it into the public domain. So a court has said that it's both possible and practical to copy an eBook, and so by a close extrapolation, that applies (even more so because of OCR) to a text book.
So... (thinks an unscrupulous IP lawyer concerned that kiddies are actually sharing copies of Harry Potter and the Amazonian Gift Certificate or another lucrative movie tie in) if it's even easier to copy a paper book than a highly protected eBook, then why shouldn't some of those juicy DMCA criminal penalties apply to paper books?
Bear in mind that some eBooks are already tied to individual devices (my colleage has just bought a new PDA, but simply can't transfer his Microsoft licensed eBooks from his old one to the new one). They are treated as information licensed to you; you have no rights of first sale. Now, transferral of an eBook is copying of information, not a physical transfer, but look also at how hard it is to sell software on eBay. Publisher can and do have you shut down in an instant, even if you explicitely state that you are selling a boxed non-OEM copy that you have removed from your hardware. The very idea that you can own an object that contains copyrighted content is being challenged by habit and usage, and that's often a precursor to a change in the law.
I'm not saying that this will happen this year or the next. I'm thinking five or ten years, but I'm thinking that it can and will happen, after all digital content is locked down tight with mandatory DRM. I'm not proposing that it's Constitutional, or even that it's in any way workable, but that's not necessarily a bar to having a law passed that will take years of fighting up to the Supremes to have struck or modified.
I'm also thinking that it might be the issue that finally wakes up Joe Consumer regarding fair use and the balance of power in copyright, but that by then it might be too late to recover any of the rights that we've already lost to the publishers and distributors.
What do you think? Am I delusional, or am I just following the money?
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
I really enjoy buying on the internet. Regarding used (and sometimes new) books, here is what I discovered:
- I get a lot out of the reviews posted by other buyers. But this requires to be vigilant about the posts (the wolfram book is one example where people posted negative reviews one day after the publication, even if the book is 1000 pages.)
- Some people will just lie about the quality of the books they sell just to make more profit. Shop to places with good credibility and don't be surprised to pay a little bit more to get a nicer copy.
- Some sellers are charging up to the nose for books that are out of print. Use google extensively to find your copy for cheaper (half is not always the best place, amazon zshop is also very good.)
- Shipping cost is not negligible. Even using media mail, it will be higher than to pay for sales tax. And media mail is slow and doesn't let you insure your packages.
- Shipping delays are sometimes what makes me go to Borders or BN (the latter which I try to avoid) and get my copy there. Then I order online for cheaper, then I have one month to return my copy to the bricks+cement merchant. You've got to do what you have to do. Not my fault if the "real" stores don't compete aggressively with online prices.
- I still like to go to some dusty used bookstores and browse thru the huge selection, because I support moms&pops businesses and it's really enjoyable to find that rare copy of something I would never have thought buying online (e.g. D&D first ed. monster manual that I bought last weekend.)
PPA, the girl next door.
-- I feel better now. Thanks for asking.
Anyway, that is pretty much the equivalent of giving your .mp3s away for free over the net from your ripped CDs, is it not? The problem isn't necessarily the copying, I suspect, but rather the distribution.
I imagine that it is pretty much OK to transcribe a book to your computer to transfer to your PDA, but you are not allowed to post that copyrighted work to your web page and give it away. On the same note I imagine (even though the RIAA is trying to take even this away) that it is pretty much OK to rip your CD for use in your portable .mp3 player, but you are not allowed to post those songs to your web page and give them away.
Please correct me if I am wrong, but that is pretty much how it works, right?
"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
Record companies would love to stop used CD sales.
I wouldn't worry about restrictions on the sales of used books until long after CD resale becomes illegal.
There is one fly in the ointment- I have seen stories regarding restrictions on the resale of books that include CD-ROMs, related to the licensing of the software on the included CD.
I do not deploy Linux. Ever.
This is something I noticed long before eBay... Once upon a time I would attend (real world) auctions and I noticed that quite often people would get so caught up in the frenzy of bidding that they would bid well beyond what something was worth. A few auctions were so bad that the bulk of the people in the room would be laughing (loudly!) at the 2-3 idoits in the room who just couldn't let something go... I think this is the prime motivation for folks to hold an auction instead of just placing it up for sale some other way. Furthermore, opening up the bidding audience to a nationwide set of bidders only increases the chances that there will be an obsessive-compulsive type bidding against you... Even better for the seller!
With that in mind, I think the Internet has affected "real world" sales in two distinct ways... eBay has made it incredibly easy for folks to auction something. Before you had to have a decent amount of stuff and hire an auctioneer, now all you need is a digital camera and a credit card. In cases where a seller has not gone the eBay route, the mere fact something can be sold to a wider audience will raise the value of that item. If I sell a relatively obscure book in a real world shop, chances are pretty low that someone will come in and buy it. But if I can open my audience up to a larger group of folks looking for that book, the value rises. (Higher demand, fixed supply -> price goes up.)
-z
In Soviet Russia, the Beowulf cluster imagines you!
The notion of the old-fashioned massive book sale is not dead yet, either.
There's a book sale that Case Western Reserve U. has every few years. It goes on for four days, and the last day is "box day" - meaning that you fill any size box with books, and pay only $5. People drive from Alabama for this sale, it's something of a legend.
This year, I got the complete set of Asimov's Foundation series (in hardcover), 4 of Buckminster Fuller's greatest books, 4 hardcover William Gibsons (of these, the best find was The Difference Engine), 4 lonely planet travel guides, Carl Sagan's Cosmos and Dragons of Eden and about 35 kilos more of miscellaneous biographies, textbooks, philosophy anthologies, Time-Life coffee-table books, the complete corpus of James Michener - all for five bucks!
Meanwhile, my compulsive roommate bought two complete encyclopedias, one from 1905 and one from 1860. I asked him why, he says, "they were old."
Right. Now I have to build new shelves.
They also have some rarities. From the website:
Among the finds on this year's silent auction table will be a first-edition copy of E. B. White's Charlotte's Web, with illustrations by Garth Williams; a copy of Paul Cheswick's Robin Hood, illustrated by N.C. Wyeth; a rare James Joyce Pomes Penyeach, printed privately in Cleveland in 1931 and from a limited series of 100 copies; and a leather-bound copy of Charles Dickens' Master Humphrey's Clock and The Old Curiosity Shop (printed in London by Chapman and Hall).
If you're anywhere in the East, I encourage you to come next year. All the proceeds go to the Association for Continuing Education.
'Be always mindful, even when ditch-digging.' --D. T. Suzuki
The search for a series of seven OOP paperbacks made me a used bookstore lover. Every vacation involved mining the used bookstores in the area. The thrill of the hunt.
Now I can find most of what I want online, but at significantly higher prices.
Used books, like many items on eBay, are a seller's market. (Like the used but still available DVDs that are bid up until they're over list price.) Good for the dealers, their target customers aren't limited to the locals. Bad for the buyer who used to take the trouble to hunt.
In used bookstores, the buyers and the sellers loved books. Now there are people who are just trying to score an easy profit. Consider the people working just-in-time inventory scams: Advertise a book on half.com or amazon.com for an inflated price. (A lot of people don't look past those two.) After on order comes in, buy it online somewhere else to ship to them! Actually this isn't really a scam. If someone agrees to pay an inflated price, that's their problem. But it shows that you really need to know what things are worth.
I'll continue to use both online and B&M sources, at least as long as there continue to be B&M sources.
If Chaos Theory has taught us anything, it's that we must kill all the butterflies.
You are talking about the Thor Power Tools case, which made books in a warehouse subject to inventory taxes.
I've been told that publishers found easy workarounds for this, though. It only applies to completed products, not incomplete assemblies. So one thing they did was store covers and pages separately, and do the final binding only as demand requires.
Actually I'm almost completely the opposite: for fictional works, I prefer used books. The age and handling adds a character that new books just don't have. I've purchased books over 100 years old (got lucky at library sales) for less than $1.00 each just because I enjoyed having something that old on my bookshelf. I still haven't read _The Two Towers_ and _Return of the King_ simply because I prefer to own used copies. Getting impatient, though
I did find a used copy of _At the Mountains of Madness_ this weekend. It made my day to go into a used bookstore and actually find the book I was looking for!
Nonfiction I generally buy new.
Those folks who have pointed out selling used books would be impossible to stop because of long-standing inertia are quite correct. The same is true with public libraries (indeed, ANY libraries) because they are very much entrenched. Indeed, there is along-standing friction between libraries and publishers over this very issue. In some countries there is a so-called "public lending right" which results in the goverment paying fees to publishers based on library corculation. Authors, in truth the most low-paid cog in the publishing machine, are all for this because that means more royalties (they think), so it's been made into a class issue as well.
Today is not the problem; tomorrow is. Today e-books and e-distribution, and e-paper, and all that is not much of an issue. After some initial excitement the concept is in the trough of disillusionment at the moment once publishers figured out people didn't want to lug around a Rocketbook.
In about then yeras or so we are likely to see the first signs of a peak in the "book" industry and the first statistically significant moves to digital in the industry. As that happens you will be buying a license to read the material. Time and technology will gradually decide this issue as more and more material is produced in the new formats.
It does not bode well for libraries or the used book trade. I am a librarian of 30 years in charge of our IT department. There is a sentiment in our profession that we may not be around as an institution very much longer.
How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
Heidi, FactorFantasy.com