Slashdot Mirror
A Web Browser in Your BIOS?
Anonymous Coward points to this article on xbitlabs.com, which begins "At the recently held Computex show in Taipei Phoenix Technology Company introduced its new FirstBIOS based on Linux. Among the major advantages of this product, they mentioned such things as PC wake from different standby modes and integrated means of rapid PC recovery in case of failure." That's not all, though -- the article goes on to say that "the most remarkable thing is that you will be able to get access to Internet directly from this interface either via the traditional modem or local network. In this case the data will be stored in NTFS, FAT32 and ext2 file systems.
According to Phoenix, all these features fit into 16Mbit Flash memory."
Is it just me, or are BIOS images getting more and more bloated?
I use a Macintosh. While earlier Macs had all sorts of nonsense in ROM (car crash noises, colour photographs, and god knows what else besides) recent machines have almost nothing.
Technologies change - indeed the web is moving at a fair rate too. Imagine if this web browser in the BIOS only supported HTML 1.0.
http://www.themeparks.ie
Can anybody tell me what the point of this would be? Accessing the Internet from your BIOS sounds cool, but I really can't see the point of doing so.. Isn't this why we have OS'?
--
\ Christian A Strømmen
scope creep? wtf does my BIOS need a friggin web browser? sheesh!
four-oh-four
We are complaining about computers being bundled with MS Windows. If this turns into a standard bios, because of it's cool features etc., I wonder how Microsoft feels not being able to get rid of Linux without destroying the BIOS.
Furthermore, if the BIOS has web browsing capabilities, and maybe even e-mailing capabilities, it may be the perfect [BI]OS for some people. There may not be a need for yet another OS to run on top of it.
But yea, a bit bloated for being "just" a BIOS, isn't it? As long as it's rock solid it shouldn't matter though.
The article is pretty basic, it doesn't say web browser, it just says internet access.
I think it is probaly a bit of bloat, but it would be nice to flash your bios, or maybe download drivers without using the OS at all.
Start the computer into BIOS mode, it dials in, grabs the new image or whatever you need, and can install it. Could also be nice to get recovery tools for your broken OS install.
I kind of like this idea.
If a useful browser/email client were included
in flash, the computer would be instantly useful without installation of any O/S. Maybe this is what some people need- just pick up a cheap PC to use as a browser, no need for a HD, etc.
This could also be useful for initial net-based O/S installation or download. Having basic tools
available in ROM could ease a lot of tasks- include a browser, an FTP client, a telnet client, and disk partitioning/formatting software, for example.
In a way, this brings back ideas from old personal computers. Old machines often had BASIC in ROM- you could use the machine with no storage and no preload of software.
A mini-OS on a chip, where have I seen that before? (Amiga Kickstart?)
While the modularity and flexibility of certain OSes make for lovely exhibits of creativity, this makes me wonder.
The article mentioned Java and Flash abilities, also. Can you imagine a remote root exploit in your Internet-connected BIOS?
How about a nice Flash/Java app that embeds SMTP commands to turn your BIOS into a high-speed spam machine?
My crystal ball shows an ever-brightening future for Internet security consultants.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
While the whole idea sounds interesting, I have security concerns. Remember the ping of death, and other exploits like that? Image the "fun" script kiddies could have once an exploit is found. I hope this device includes support for scheduled automated bios upgrades to patch any bugs that are found.
People seem to be saying "this isn't a web browser, it is internet access." Well, add some RAM, mount a NFS partition off some server somewhere, and up can pop Mozilla, Nutscrape, Opera, etc. This is the core making of a set top box, or true network appliance. Don't just think web browser. Think small efficient MP3 player, email client. I am sure you smart Slashdotters can think of many more possibilities. Slap on a chip that doesn't need a fan, and a small fanless ac/dc converter, and you have a zero-moving part, zero-noise system.
This could change the way we think about network appliances, and Network Computers.
-Pete
Soccer Goal Plans
This reminds me of the phoenix.net crap that came on EPoX and other motherboards about two years ago that force-installed some "helpful" utilities that an objective eye would consider spyware upon detecting a Windows installation. Thankfully, at least EPoX removed it, but this looks like an attempt to reincarnate the idea. I wouldn't trust them.
Call (206) 338-5780 COLLECT for information about a genuine BA, BS, MA, MS, MBA, or Ph.D.
Although this might technically be called a BIOS, it certainly doesn't sound like something intended for a traditional PC. Looks more like Phoenix is after the embedded devices market...
;-)
Phoenix FirstView Connect software delivers an easy-to-implement, low cost/high value architecture that supports Internet TV, interactive screen phones, game consoles, customizable set-top devices, handheld appliances, and more.
This has really useful applications for small, specialized devices...it could turn just about anything into a Web-capable appliance. It would be kind of pointless on a full-fledged PC, however.
If it was implemented on a PC, it would probably end up a very annoying big brother of PhoenixNet. *shudder* Just imagine having to sit through ten minutes of downloading and playing Flash-based advertisements every time you booted your new DellPaq...
DennyK
It does seem more like a gimic than anything that would be useful in day to day operation. I can see one use though. More than once I've be installing an OS (Microsoft - what do you want to reinstall today) and suddenly found that I needed information on a hard drive, or an updated driver, or some other information that I wanted to get from the web. In my case I fire up the old P166 and reslove things with it, but the ability to get to the web while resolving problems could be handy for many.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Putting Lynx, in the bios would be nice, it could manage all the features in the BIOS, and support FTP and HTTP installs over the net.
The ability of the BSD's to be installed via a pair of floppies, and a net connect is a very handy feature.
Why, within year we might be able to boot from a network server! Or copy software from a network server! They could call it "TFTP"!
There are plenty of advantages and drawbacks to something like this.
I like the quick power on and no need for long bootup wait and the potential for diskless operation. Ideal for consumer electronic applications like PVRs.
As others have mentioned, the complexity of the BIOS now means it's harder to secure against network exploits. How about reducing the network functionality down to a minimum? BUt, at the same time, it would be nice to have standard network functionality to replace all these different internal communication busses.
Imagine if the HD were communicating via IP to other internal components. It would be interesting if my PC were nothing but a mini LAn of components that could be just more networked devices. And if I could make a NAS down the hall look really local and not through SMB or NFS.
The networking built into the X windowing system would be small potatotes compared to having everything be a networked device: video card, mouse, keyboard, harddisk, CD, etc. This new BIOS seems like an important step if something like that is ever to happen.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Check out their QNX-Nuetrino Demo Floppy it has a POSIX complient realtime OS, with their Photon GUI (elegant in the extreme compared to X), a full file system, Networking, their Voyager web Browser, & dial up networking (with wider CHAP/PAP logon script support than BeOS &) or Network card/cable modem support, all on a bootable floppy drive. This OS system on a floppy also by default dynamically supports at least Intel, SIS, ALI & VIA chipsets & S3, Intel, 3df/x, ATI, Nvidia, SIS 'n Trident graphics out of the box too.
This doesn't sound all that different from what OpenFirmware (used by Suns and Macs) has done for years.
Nice to see Intel boxes finally catching up with the 1990s.
"It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
So I took the definition from everything2
"An acronym for 'Basic Input/Output System.' In standard Intel personal computers, a ROM program
responsible for controlling low-level access to system devices. In most modern operating systems,
the BIOS is used mostly to perform the POST and then boot the operating system."
And this doesn't seem to meet the definition of BASIC. I'd like to nominate XIOS, for eXtreme (or maybe eXtended) Input/Output System, because we don't have nearly enough acronyms that start with X.
I really hate Dan Patrick.
Isn't this inherently insecure?
Now 31337 h4ck3rZ can own your bios too.
Internet access from the bios would cover 95% of my computer use (at home anyway). I wouldnt need to load an OS!
no sig.
Is it just me or is this just really pointless? I don't see any real reason why a BIOS would do any good with this feature. There are some neat BIOS utilities like MSI's LiveBIOS and FuzzyLogic that maintains and upgrades the BIOS over the net from the OS- though it sounds like a useful tool, I wouldn't touch with a 150 mile pole just yet and I still prefer the old fashioned boot from floppy and flash the bios image off the HDD. I think the LinuxBIOS is a cool project, hopefully it can become of some use, I have a busted Slot1 mobo with a bad BIOS that needs an EEPROM burn, I'd like to see if I can get LinuxBIOS on it one day.
I would be happier about this idea if we could have a physical motherboard switch (brought out to the panel) that had to be held on manually to enable flashing the BIOS. The ability to change the BIOS by programming is a security vulnerability that can only get bigger as BIOS functionality increases. Yet it could be prevented by a simple single pole momentary switch.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
It's not pointless at all. THe ability to turn on a machine, blind, and have it quit functional (debug memory, rudamentary programming, scannign for new devices, etc) is highly useful.
Look at Sun.. they've been doing it, well, forever.
The BIOS stuff we have now is basically useless.
That's what computers used to do. How do you think your Commodore 64 or your Apple 2 booted? You got it.. straight out of ROM.
And they didn't have a BIOS.
BIOS is like a simple API.. a standard set of interrupts & calls that somewhat abstract the hardware beneath. It's pretty trivial. It's also not required if the OS can support the hardware directly.
Haven't any of you seen the QNX demo floppy: Kernel, GUI, Graphical Webbrowser, Java VM, and Network or Modem drivers all on a floppy. QNX can also run on BIOSless machines I'm pretty sure, and can easily run from flash memory. So, what's the big deal with someone putting this stuff into a web-appliance machine when it's already been done?
I believe they were referring to the NETWORK storage and were most likely using SAMBA in the BIOS.
I had to read it twice myself.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
> Ya, otherwise known as a PDA.
;)
>
Or better known as an IOpener Net Appliance
You should have seen my 2 friends faces when I showed them my $99 IOpener (running JAILBAIT Linux). They had spent $1500 each for PC's running Windows to get email and to surf the web. Even at $400, a Net Appliance is all most families need.
OK, throw one fullblown PC in there as a file server and now Jr and Jr-ette get cheap appliances instead of massively expensive and support intensive Windows based PC's. They could pay for it with lemonaide stand money for cry'n out loud.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
The stone and chisel worked great and was simple. Should we still be using it? Remember this is not Windows and the Linux kernel can be trimmed down pretty small. This is just a small step up for the BIOS but a large step in functionality. It's also a large step up for OEM's.
This reminds me of the often heard phrase in TV cop shows: "Step away for the windows!"
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Doesn't BIOS stand for Basic Input Output System? A network (corporate intranet, Internet, etc) today is arguably a Basic means of I/O. I assume it will be even moreso in the future.
I can invision buying a pc at Wal*Mart with no OS installed, getting home, plugging in, turning it on... it connects to a website where I'm asked what OS I want to install. Or better yet, what OS I want to run remotely *for this session*. All or most of my data is stored in a high security SAN somewhere and by its nature, is editable equally by any competitors application. I can choose to save things locally if I want. It would be my choice.
Maybe we just need to expand our definition and understand that we don't need to limit Basic I/O to local peripherals any more.
Can we fully utilize (or visualize) it's potential now? Maybe not, but this one of many baby steps to the standard PC in the future. I don't think they really expect you to do your daily browsing with this thing. It's the bigger picture.
load "linux",8,1
They seem to be going along fine and that's probably where this 'firstbios' originated.
Check them out, they can boot your machine so fast your HD's don't have time to spin up.
Liberty.
While this Linux in the BIOS thing is good for embedded systems, I still think there should be Open Firmware in an Intel PC. Think of it, the ability to load ELF files directly from the firmware...
God save our Queen, and Heaven bless The Maple Leaf Forever!
It seems to be alot like Linux In A Box, http://www.liab.dk . Except LIAB is actually a small computer, not just the bios.
:-)
I guess you could use them for really small firewalls
We actually use a liab box to monitor the status of our washing machines (a small laundry shared by 450 apartments), so all the teneants can see whether the machines are available.
Nifty stuff.
This is such classic Slashdot... the O.P. sees the Phoenix name, assumes BIOS, and posts a story to that effect. Lots of comments are based on the same idea, though nobody bothers to click through to the original link.
FirstView Connect 2.0 is not a PC BIOS. It's listed as being for "information appliances" and other semi-computers, like set top boxes. For them, where a hard disk is unusual, a powerful ROM is a good developers' tool. Many developers like the Linux environment, so it's attractive to them. Some of these are a lot like miniature PCs; for instance, the PC/104 form factor is a hand-sized stackable card with an ISA bus, often used for compact embedded systems (it usually costs more than a full-sized motherboard). But FirstView is not aimed at generic PC motherboards.
How 'bout we make it bloody obvious that it's going on and only when the owner of the machine wants it done?
There's entirely too much about the site describing this product that reminds me of a lot of what I read about the internet circa '94 to '96: It's all about how it's going to provide you with all these convenient new ways to spend money.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
So if I tell my operating system to copy a CD to my hard drive your stuff will block that command?
Did you include the 2001 sound bite "I'm sorry Dave. I can't let you do that."?
If I use a SCSI drive can I get around it?
Will it erase stuff from my harddrive to which it thinks I don't have a right?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
But what if someday this feature was included in mass-market PCs? Do you really think that the people who would go down the street to buy a computer from Walmart are really going to know anything about a jumper? They aren't going to want to have to break open their case.
Lack of eloquence does not denote lack of intelligence, though they often coincide.