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Explaining Disappointing XScale Performance In Pocket PCs

JYD writes: "I found this new article on a Pocket PC web site where Microsoft talks about why XScale Pocket PCs aren't as fast as people thought they would be. Is it the OS? The CPU not supporting ARM4 properly? I wonder if the Linux port would run faster on 400 Mhz ... or did Intel screw up the CPU?"

133 comments

  1. i almost dont care... by packeteer · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    now that i can buy a pentium 4 laptop with a nice video card for a fairly reasonable price...

    --
    unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
    1. Re:i almost dont care... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      for a P4 1.7GHz with a 64MB GeForce4Go fully loaded youre looking at $7000 for a Dell Inspiron 8200.

    2. Re:i almost dont care... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's because you are a stinking smelly GNU hippy.

  2. You think thats slow by brejc8 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My group has been working on a syhthesizable secure G3 card CPU and it will probably be the slowest ARM ever made.

    The CPU will be fully delay insensitive and asynchronous to stop power and clock glitch attacks.

    We are currently looking at 4 Mhz on 0.18 process.

    1. Re:You think thats slow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, what lousy security. I can break that with a hammer.

    2. Re:You think thats slow by Groo+Wanderer · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Yeah, but if you run an MS OS on it, it will feel like 2MHz.

      -Charlie

      (sorry, I had to)

  3. Judging by modern Linux DEs.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They would run far slower. Yes, I know, you could fit a little text-only distro onto a floppy, but if you compare KDE or Gnome to Windows 98 or XP (had all 4 on the same box, in 3-4 installs of Linux, maybe more :( ) it's much, much, slower. I'm sure you could use some ancient window manager that's "fine for you" but speed is terrible on any modern Linux DE.

    Now, you can either A) mod me down because I'm dissing Linux, even though I'm a user, or B) maybe work on that. I know there are lots of contributors here, and I'm not a coder.

    1. Re:Judging by modern Linux DEs.... by torndorff · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, you're right. Sorta.

      If you take Linux (source based, optimized for cpu) and a modern window manager like enlightenment (if you think its not modern, prove it in a reply) with a preemptive kernel and put it on a Celeron ~500mhz with 128mb of PC100 SDRAM it WILL BEAT the Windows 98 in speed, although it is different.

      I just don't see how people assume KDE and Gnome are "modern" because they resemble Windows. Is that the trend?

    2. Re:Judging by modern Linux DEs.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I can fully attest to that. I happen to have a 128 MB Celeron 500Mhz box sitting right next to me (no lie). I had Windows 98SE on it for a few days, and It was dog slow, unusably so. I put Mandrake on there (with KDE 2.something) and it flew. I was very surprised how fast it was. It's even faster now that I moved to WindowMaker.

    3. Re:Judging by modern Linux DEs.... by RevAaron · · Score: 1

      You've not noticed that yet? GNOME and KDE are not supposed to be "modern," they're supposed to be like Windows, so people used to Windows can switch. They're being largely designed and coded by ex-Windows users. And that's fine, if you like the Windows works, but want a free version of it, more power to you.

      It's hard to build a modern computing environment on top of a non-modern operating system (Unix, Linux). Again, GNU/Linux *not* being modern isn't a dis, it's just the way things are. It works. I use it on my machine, largely as a host for a more modern OS (but far more spartan at this point). And no, I'm not talking about Mac OS X being some epitome of "modern," it's based on all the same things. Unix is so.... 50s in it's ideology.

      And before a bunch of escaped slashtards flame me, i repeat, THIS IS NOT A BAD THING. If you like Linux, GNOME or KDE, use it. Some of us, however, are not satisfied with the limits they impose on the way we work and are trying to forge something new.

      Enlightenment isn't any more modern than GNOME or KDE. But it may be a little more fun. :)

      --

      Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
    4. Re:Judging by modern Linux DEs.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Enlightenment kiks butt. im building dr0.17 as we speak. its way cooler that KDE but I do like gnome/gtk apps, ther eused to be a whole lot of gtk apps but they seem to mostly have been absorbed into Gnome. Gue its time to start writeing XUL interface for all those awesome comand line programs we love. Rock on. Yeah the non coders way to code platform independant.

    5. Re:Judging by modern Linux DEs.... by IamTheRealMike · · Score: 3, Informative
      Hmm, well .....

      Linux with KDE is slower than Windows 98 basically for two reasons. The first is that Linux does more stuff. For instance, it runs various daemons in the background to allow for remote access, it journals filesystem logs, it implements proper crash protection, it has a usable command line with virtual terminals etc. Windows 98 doesn't have these things, so it can be faster.

      The second reason is that KDE is written largely in C++, and the Linux C++ linker is inefficient (it is much faster at C). The programs run fine, but they take longer to start up, which is what makes it "feel" slow. Gnome should in theory be faster, but they kill any speed increase they'd otherwise get by having a slower (well, in v1.4) graphics library and by using incredibly heavy things such as CORBA for ipc, and a daemon for configuration etc.

      The reason other window managers (not just ancient ones, others such as WindowMaker or E) are faster is because a) they are simpler and b) tend to be written in C

      The speed of GTK is improving, though CORBA/ORBit will always be slow on the gnome side imho. The Linux Linker issues with C++ are known about and are being resolved, which will lead to much better performance.

      Another problem is that some modern distros are quite bloated. My SuSE 7.3 box loads all sorts of stuff at startup that I don't actually need, but I never got around to switching it off. Combined with the slow start of KDE and the fact it loads after login (which windows does before login), and it begins to feel slow.

      Performance is improving, however it's still largely in the hands of the GNU folks and the distro companies.

      thanks -mike

    6. Re:Judging by modern Linux DEs.... by glitchvern · · Score: 1
      Unix is so.... 50s in it's ideology.

      Uhm, it was first invented in 69 and improved to what we would recognize as Unix in the early 70's.
    7. Re:Judging by modern Linux DEs.... by RevAaron · · Score: 2

      *sigh*

      But most of the core ideas were developed in the 50s. Just because Win98 came out in 1998 (or was it 99?) it doesn't mean that it's technology is of the 90s. That's pretty much from the 50s too.

      I should've known that comment would confuse many.

      --

      Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
    8. Re:Judging by modern Linux DEs.... by himi · · Score: 3, Informative

      Most of the core ideas in Unix were developed in the 60's, actually.

      Computing in the 50's was a very different thing, so limited that the idea of wasting cycles on things like memory management or protected memory would have been considered insane. It wasn't until hardware developed to the point where there were cycles and memory to spare that anything like Unix (or MULTICS, which is where most of Unix's ideas were developed) became possible.

      himi

      --

      My very own DeCSS mirror.
    9. Re:Judging by modern Linux DEs.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lots of core computer science concepts were
      conceived in the 30s and 40s
      (Alan Turing and von Neumann) are they dated?
      Is a turing machine passe' are you not
      operating a machine conceived by von neuman?
      My personal opinion is that windows and fat
      clients are an aberration, most of the truly
      function computing is performed on unix environments that originated in yes the 70s.

      However, I think the question at hand was
      what linux configuration would show the
      better performance comparison on a handheld.
      I would suggest windowmaker or blackbox over
      enlightenment or gnome or kde. I mean have
      you run any of these on the same hardware?
      Enlightenment really impressed my in 1998
      it really showed some amazing things that
      would be accomplished with a windowmanager
      on X, but it really chews through the
      resources.

    10. Re:Judging by modern Linux DEs.... by steveha · · Score: 2

      Gnome should in theory be faster, but they kill any speed increase they'd otherwise get by having a slower (well, in v1.4) graphics library and by using incredibly heavy things such as CORBA for ipc, and a daemon for configuration etc.

      I don't know about the graphics library thing, but the GNOME ORB is somewhat stripped down to make it faster. Unless you actually serve objects remotely over the net, the GNOME CORBA ORB basically just adds a little bit of function call overhead. I'm willing to accept that tiny bit of overhead for a tested, industrial-strength object model like CORBA. KDE, as I understand it, is inventing their own somewhat lightweight object model, and I'm worried they will later find some situation where they wish they had left in a feature they stripped out to make it lightweight.

      As for Win98, don't forget that it is a candy coating around Win95, and Win95 was aggressively optimized for size and speed. The target machine for Win95 was a 486 with 4MB of RAM. There is a bunch of assembly language in there, in critical places; and some of it is even 16-bit code. (16-bit code is much harder to write, since you have to cram things into smaller spaces and you have to explicitly handle near/far pointers, but it's tiny! Even with the thunking overhead, it won't slow you down too much if you just use it rarely.) Also don't forget that the MS C compiler actually does produce very good code, better than GCC is able to now. (Although I hear good things about the latest version of GCC, I don't think they have caught up with MS C yet.)

      The tiny size of the Win95 core means that it caches well, too, and a high cache hit rate makes for speedy performance.

      I'd be interested to see benchmarks of Win98 vs. a really stripped-down Linux system (no daemons running, etc.) that was compiled with aggressive optimizations and is running a really lightweight window manager (IceWM or ROX or something). And defintely no Nautilus; try your system with ROX Filer instead. I saw a huge speed jump when I did that. (Debian makes it so easy to try such experiments!)

      There is still room left in Linux-based systems for size and speed improvements. Every time GCC gets better, every part of the system gets a little better. And I don't believe that much work has been done on either GNOME or KDE to make it stripped-down lean-and-mean... the first law is "make it work before you make it faster", and folks are still busy making it work right. (But Nautilus has had a lot of speed work done on it lately, and I've heard it is much improved compared to its 1.0 release.)

      steveha

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
  4. Maybe a bench with SavaJe or Linux could ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..answer !

    But unfortunatly SavaJe XE seem to be only there for redular ARM

    Anyway it is still a cool OS : Check it out !

  5. Cant find the link but by MrBandersnatch · · Score: 3, Interesting

    a review I read showed a 400Mhz XScale performing at 50%-75% the speed of a 206MHz Strongarm chip. I would be really interested in some none OS specific tests that showed whether or not the XScale offers any performance benifit whatsoever - I know that it is supposed to scale to 1Ghz and has better battery life than the 206Mhz Arms but if it NEEDS to run at 800MHz just to perform at the same level as its older sibling then it is a waste of space.

    1. Re:Cant find the link but by MrBandersnatch · · Score: 1

      Typical. found it

      I was off in my above assessment BTW. Snippit from the French :-

      A small video test under Pocket TV as a proof: Ipaq @ 206: 23 Fps Xscale @ 400: 19 Fps! Xscale @ 200: 14 Fps!!

    2. Re:Cant find the link but by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well I found it and the performance is NOT 50-75 percent slower then an iPaq. From the numbers on pocketnow.com, the Toshiba e740 is actually ahead in most categories with exception of graphics. There's the real kicker. I don't think it's the Xscale so much as it's the ATI imageon graphics chip in it. This is also a new chip, and as the benchmarks prove, it's driver has a problem or so it would seem. I actually heard that it's kind of operating in a emulation mode of sorts (kind of like standard SVGA on a desktop). ATI should provide driver code to Toshiba and it can then be fixed in a flash. I have a e740 and love it so much. The Xscale is a nice chip and will indeed improve in peformance as it's flashed up, but in my book, the other features are worth more. The wireless works well, the dual slots are a godsend (WE DON'T NEED NO STEEEKIN SLED! ;) ) and the price is GREAT for what you get. All in all, I would buy another one or an updated one (like the Toshiba e550 coming out soon!). One thing I am looking for is the availability of the 3000 mah high cap battery. The standard is fine for day to day use, but when you use the wireless alot you hear a giant sukcing sound coming from the battery. The other accesory I would look for is the 99 buck adapter that goes on the bottom. You add that and you can attach a USB keyboard and also drive a SVGA monitor or a Projector with it and have your handheld run your Power Point stuff on the road.

      --

      Gorkman

    3. Re:Cant find the link but by MrBandersnatch · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the link - youre 100% correct. I'm MUCH better informed now :) I really hope Tosh improve the graphics performance - its such a nice machine that apart.

    4. Re:Cant find the link but by ceallaigh · · Score: 1

      I have also seen poor performance by XScale compared to: 1- StrongARM 2- ARM920T ( Samsung ) 3- ARM7TDMI ( Samsung, ATMEL, etc ) It would appear that in implementing the XScale design they have broken rules with standard ARM design and made their product perform very poorly with software written for other ARM processors. Sounds like Itanium running Win32 code.

    5. Re:Cant find the link but by cbcbcb · · Score: 2, Informative
      The Xscale has a 10 stage pipeline, compared to the 3 stage pipeline in an ARM7TDMI, and 5 stage pipelines in the StrongARM and ARM920T The main problem is the much greater load result delay on the Xscale pipeline (3 cycles(?), compared to 1 cycle on the ARM920) which means that the instruction ordering needs to be significantly different to generate optimal Xscale code. A short code segment should clarify this:
      # cycles ARM7TDMI ARM920T Xscale(guess)
      LDR r0, label1 3 1 1
      LDR r1, label2 3 1 1
      ... interlocks 0 1 3
      ADD r2,r0,r1 1 1 1
      total 7 4 6
      On this trivial piece of code the Xscale is 50% slower at the same clock cycle than the ARM920T. However, this effect would not make a 400MHz Xscale slower than a 206MHz StrongARM by itself.
  6. That's not talk, that's regurgitation by marxmarv · · Score: 2
    The tool from MS has marketspeak in place of information except for "We decided to support V4, we didn't bother to retarget our compilers to V5 for our traitorous former buddies at Intel, and if XScale's V4 compat is weak, that's their problem." It is, in fact, but that doesn't make MSFT's laziness any less lame.

    On the other hand, Intel often gives little thought to enhancing performance of old code on new processors. If memory serves me right, Intel's Pentium Pro ran 16-bit code embarrassingly slowly.

    -jhp

    --
    /. -- the Free Republic of technology.
    1. Re:That's not talk, that's regurgitation by imroy · · Score: 1
      On the other hand, Intel often gives little thought to enhancing performance of old code on new processors. If memory serves me right, Intel's Pentium Pro ran 16-bit code embarrassingly slowly.

      No, Intel gave a lot of thought to that. It takes several years to develop a complex CPU like the pentium family. They just thought that Micro$oft would have a 32-bit operating system out by the time the PPro was released. Oops! Windows 95 wasn't completely 32-bit despite all the "32-bit" marketing and hype. And it was so new that everyone was still running a lot of 16-bit windows 3.x software. Of course, performance was much better if you were running a Real Operating System ;)

    2. Re:That's not talk, that's regurgitation by marxmarv · · Score: 2
      No, Intel gave a lot of thought to that. It takes several years to develop a complex CPU like the pentium family.
      It only takes a year or two to develop a relatively simple CPU like ARM or MIPS. RISC designs tend to be far more straightforward and simple. Many computer engineering students implement the MIPS architecture as an exercise. See the Hennessey book (Computer Architecture: A Quantitative Approach, 2nd ed.) to get an idea of just how simple a processor like ARM should be.

      Besides, the much-vaunted new feature of the PPro was the CISC->RISC translator, and it shouldn't take much to rejig that to handle 16-bit mode more effectively if the market (asses that they are) demands it.

      -jhp

      --
      /. -- the Free Republic of technology.
    3. Re:That's not talk, that's regurgitation by imroy · · Score: 1
      RISC designs tend to be far more straightforward and simple. Many computer engineering students implement the MIPS architecture as an exercise.

      yep. Been there, done that. Well, almost. Computer Architecture was probably my favourite class in Uni. We didn't implement it ourselves, but that was about 90% of the class lecture and notes. Starting with simple logic gates, we went through how to build registers, latches, ALU's, register files, all the way to pipelining. Fascinating stuff if you can stick through it all and have a great lecturer! It really gives you an appreciation of how the stuff works.

      Besides, the much-vaunted new feature of the PPro was the CISC->RISC translator, and it shouldn't take much to rejig that to handle 16-bit mode more effectively if the market (asses that they are) demands it.

      I didn't know that. All I knew was that Intel was betting on M$ migrating everyone over to 32-bit software by the time it was released to market. Considering their close deals in the past, I'm sure this was based on information that M$ had given them.

      To end this post on a non-anti-MS note, the CISC-RISC converter is software upgradeable. Recent Linux kernels provide a /dev/microcode device so that you can feed it a file (presumably) supplied by Intel. See http://www.urbanmyth.org/microcode/ for more information.

  7. Amulet cores by brejc8 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The Amulet group has been working for year to make a low power yet high speed asynchronous ARM processors.
    The Amulet 3 runs at 120 MHz and consumes very little power. Most of all its asynchronous so when you dont have mych processing to do it just sits there consuming "no" power.

    They take a hell of a beating and still run. I connected one to a hamster wheel and you can see it here running despite the power fluctuating madly.

    The only reason it only goes at 120MHz is because the memory isnt fast enough.

    Its a little strange that only three ARM production lisences were given out. One to intel one to motorola and one to Amulet group.

    1. Re:Amulet cores by dpp · · Score: 1
      The Amulet 3 runs at 120 MHz and consumes very little power. Most of all its asynchronous so when you dont have mych processing to do it just sits there consuming "no" power.

      When you say 120 MHz do you mean that it has the equivalent performance of a 120 MHz ARM? I'd thought that an asynchronous chip didn't have a clock speed as such.

      --
      This post is strictly my own opinion and not necessarily that of my employer.
    2. Re:Amulet cores by brejc8 · · Score: 2

      Yeah you're correct. I meant to say MIPS.
      Which is more than a non superscalar part at 120MHz could do.

    3. Re:Amulet cores by UranusReallyHertz · · Score: 1

      Um, I thought the whole point of asynch chips was to eliminate the need for a power hungry clock. If this chip is truly asynch, how can you say it runs at 120MHz?

      --
      Smoking is an expensive, slow, and unreliable method of suicide.
    4. Re:Amulet cores by dpp · · Score: 2

      Aha... thanks :-)

      --
      This post is strictly my own opinion and not necessarily that of my employer.
  8. Before prime-time by l33t-gu3lph1t3 · · Score: 1

    Intel's Xscale architecture -should- have impressive performance. However, it seems that circumstances have conspired to keep it from showing its potential. In order to retain binary backwards compatibility, Microsoft has kept their software compiler rather basic, ensuring that it will work for multiple architectures. This lack of optimization also means that any architectural improvements Xscale has over Arm V4 or whatever it's called will not mean anything. Hopefully the history of Xscale will work like netburst architecture's history, where about 1 year after inception, software that makes use of its architecture efficiently (like SSE2 with the P4) will start to appear.

    --
    ------- "From bored to fanboy in 3.8 asian girls" ----------
    1. Re:Before prime-time by cruelworld · · Score: 1

      I wonder if this is microsofts punishment of intel in response to intel promoting linux.

    2. Re:Before prime-time by l33t-gu3lph1t3 · · Score: 1

      what punishment? Microsoft can _not_ "punish" Intel. Who else can they use, that has the fabrification capacity even close to Intel's? No one.

      --
      ------- "From bored to fanboy in 3.8 asian girls" ----------
  9. Stranding Users... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting
    From the article: "We're not prepared to strand an installed base of over 2 million iPAQ users."

    Umm... right, that's why my PocketPC 2000 Cassiopiea E115 is now as useful as a doorstop as it has a MIPS chip in it.

    When I got my PocketPC, MS touted that 'software matters' - even in their publicity. Suddenly, they ditch all the SH3 and MIPS users and just support ARM in PocketPC 2002. Not only that, but applications like Terminal Services and Messenger they won't release for the older machines. I see a lot of people saying that this is becasue PocketPC 2002 is based on CE.NET - that's not correct. PocketPC 2002 is just another revamp of PocketPC 2000, which are both based on CE 3.0. So when it all boils down, it's just Microsoft playing marketing tricks. Net result of their decision - my £450 PDA became obsolete in 18 months.

    I now own a Palm.

    1. Re:Stranding Users... by Cardbox · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And that's why, as a software developer, I daren't target PocketPC. When I ported my application from PalmOS 3 to PalmOS 5 (the ARM one), I had to change ONE LINE of code (and the program remained backwards-compatible).

      If you ask the users, the current installed base of PocketPC systems is as follows:
      PocketPC 2002 - 1%
      PocketPC 2000 - 0.5%
      PocketPC "I don't know what version" - 98.5%

      We can target either of the first two quite easily, but the last operating system in the list has no programs that are compatible with it.

    2. Re:Stranding Users... by Xtifr · · Score: 3, Funny

      From the article: "We're not prepared to strand an installed base of over 2 million iPAQ users."

      Umm... right, that's why my PocketPC 2000 Cassiopiea E115 is now as useful as a doorstop as it has a MIPS chip in it.

      Sorry, there were only 1,999,999 users of that specific system, so it was below our threshold. :)

    3. Re:Stranding Users... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bugger! I should've bought 2...

  10. Pocket PC hw spec lockdown by Qrlx · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Pocket PCs aren't as fast as people thought they would be. Is it the OS?

    It could be the OS, which is the obvious answer since it's a Microsoft OS, and this is Slashdot. But I don't know. I've never tried running anything other than PocketPC OS on the iPaq, and probably never will. (It's a work thing.)

    How did Microsoft become so popular? It was DOS, wasn't it? The program that ran on any x86 computer. Well, Microsoft should take a page from their previous success and allow a little more flexibility in PocketPC design. The main gripe that I and everyone else has about these gizmos is that they're locked into a 240 by 320 by 16-bit color display. That's lame, especially if one of the highlights of PocketPC is how easy it is to port your Win32 app. If you have to redesign all the screens to fit in a tiny-ass space, it's easy on the coders but hell on the systems analysts.

    It looks to me like Palm have a much more open approach, they are using the same tactic that established Microsoft's dominance with DOS back in the 80s. You can get that new Sony Clie' with TWICE the screen real estate (as in pixels) of ANY PocketPC available. Kind of a no-brainer if you ask me.

    Off to the solstice parade!

    1. Re:Pocket PC hw spec lockdown by RevAaron · · Score: 1, Troll

      I believe the spec for PocketPC calls for a 320x240 screen. However, you can get WinCE machines that run at any resolution, far beyond any silly PalmOS device.

      Sure, you can get a Sony Clie with a 480x320 screen. But why would you want to, you'd have to put up with that sad excuse of an OS. Makes a pretty kickass (and damned expensive) oraganizer, I'm sure. What good is a 480x320 screen if it's about the same size (in cm by cm) as the other options *and* there's no real handwriting recognition?

      Personally, I still carry around a 5 year old Newton 2100u most of the time. I have an iPAQ as well, for development mostly. It has a 480x320 (lower DPI than the Clie, which means more space to write!) screen and a 162 MHz StrongARM. And a real OS, with the facilities to develop first-class apps while never touching a desktop. Seems like a no-brainer to me too. But we're on Slashdot, and it doesn't run Linux, so I'll just kick back and wait for the on-slaught of "h3y j00 st00p1d mac lover fsck u && UR pee-pee-pda!!!1"

      Have fun at your parade! :)

      --

      Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
    2. Re:Pocket PC hw spec lockdown by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 2

      Screw you man! I don't want them any bigger. Sure a nice big screen would be nice, but in something that's supposed to fit in your pocket, then the current specs work. The only way I would want a bigger screen would be if it was virtual (project on your wall, eye, whatever....). Now I WOULD like a 15 inch wireless web pad for at home. But I guess that'll wait for the mira. Also, that clie with twice the real estate is a heck of a lot bigger too. I like the 240x320, although I would not mind more pixels per inch. That would make things much sharper and clearer.

      --

      Gorkman

    3. Re:Pocket PC hw spec lockdown by aussersterne · · Score: 5, Interesting

      No onslaught here.

      The Newton 2100 kicks ass. I used Palm and Windows CE before finally trying out a Newton 2x00 series. The Newton made me swoon.

      It's the best damn computing device out there, PC, PDA, or otherwise. I used to do my e-mail, my diary-keeping, my word processing, etc. on my PC in Linux, but now I even write my books and do 90% of my e-mailing on my Newton 2100 directly over ethernet. I read news on it, make travel plans on it, I have my household inventory on it (in Notion)... and I read BBC World News and Slashdot on it in Newt's Cape.

      The PC only gets touched every few days. The Palm and CE devices are long gone. I only regret that Apple killed the Newton, so there won't be a color version. :(

      --
      STOP . AMERICA . NOW
    4. Re:Pocket PC hw spec lockdown by highvista63 · · Score: 1

      > Sure, you can get a Sony Clie with a 480x320 screen. But why would you want to, you'd have to put up with that sad excuse of an OS. Makes a pretty kickass (and damned expensive) oraganizer, I'm sure. What good is a 480x320 screen if it's about the same size (in cm by cm) as the other options *and* there's no real handwriting recognition?

      Um, maybe for viewing extremely clear and vibrant JPG's, watching widescreen movies, reading eBooks that don't strain the eyes, etc, etc. The Clie NR70 is just lovely, IMHO.

    5. Re:Pocket PC hw spec lockdown by RevAaron · · Score: 2

      Again, that's what you use may use a PDA for. I don't really need a PDA for looking at clear and vibrant JPGs. Porn in the toilet is of the utmost quality, I'm sure. But it's not my bag. Never have eye strain with the Newton or my iPAQ, the black on green is of high enough contrast for me. I'm sure the screen is nice, but it doesn't provide anything for me that isn't good enough elsewhere.

      They keyboard is sure badass, though. A remarkable piece of industrial design.

      --

      Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
  11. Synopsis of "interview' by brooks_talley · · Score: 5, Funny

    Q: What could possibly have gone wrong?

    A: While we acknowledge that some peoples' perception is of something having gone wrong, we believe that any wrongness is unavoidable.

    Q: Well, some analysts say it's intel's fault

    A: We have implemented what we could implement, and don't believe there is any implementable implementation that would implement significant gains.

    Q: Analysts also say it will be 2004 before the issue is fixed

    A: It is too early to talk about 2004. That said, we are committed to delivering a good product.

    Q: This is really bad news for the Pocket PC platform

    A: Yes, it is. However, fortunately the issue is so small that this really isn't bad news for the Pocket PC platform.

    Cheers
    -b

    1. Re:Synopsis of "interview' by Moosifer · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm the VP of Marketing for a large Internet company whose name I cannot disclose in a public forum. I'd like to offer you a director's position in our marketing department. Name your price. Can you start on Monday?

  12. Seems obvious, bus speed & not enough cache. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well I have n't looked deeply into the Intel Xscale but from the article it says that although the clock rate has gone up from 206MHz to 400MHz the bus speed has gone down from 103MHz to 100MHz now unless they've significantly beefed up the amount of cache this is going to hurt you alot.

    Additionally I seem to remember the XScale was targetted at telecoms equipment more then PDA's can anyone comment on how these new ARMv5 instructions affect peformance?

  13. Strange by Cheesy+Fool · · Score: 0

    Running kde3 on a AMD K6-2 266MHz with 96MB EDO Ram and OpenBSD it actually runs quite well.

    --

    Hail to the king, baby!
    1. Re:Strange by Verizon+Guy · · Score: 1

      That may be true, but I'm just telling it like it is. KDE on BSD and Linux was sooo much slower than either Windows 98 or 2000. Trying to run Konqeror was like pulling teeth. I actually got better performance running XDM and a virtual console through Exceed than if I sat there at the actual X console and tried to startup KDE

      --

      Aw, fuck it. Let's go bowling. - The Big Lebowski

    2. Re:Strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you compile from source using -march and -O3 compile flags, a recent binutils ld with combreloc, and the objprelink hack?
      Or did you install binaries?

    3. Re:Strange by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      haha good one, or is that really a procedure people use?

  14. Windows CE, ugh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    PocketPC is the new name for Windows CE. MS tricked me into buying these beta devices twice. Hopefully not again.

    One of the responders hit it dead on. What is being sold are basically beta devices. My workpad z50 and sharp mobilion are both pieces of junk that get no use.

    1. Re:Windows CE, ugh. by nesthigh · · Score: 1
      I don't know about the mobilon, but you can install NetBSD on the workpad z50.

      next

    2. Re:Windows CE, ugh. by JebusIsLord · · Score: 2, Informative

      *sigh* No, pocketpc 2002 is NOT the new name for WinCE, pocketpc 2002 and 2000 are an implementation of windowsCE 3.0. Windows CE is an embedded realtime OS that can be used for all sorts of things, PDAs being one of them. Think of pocketpc 2002 as a "distro" of CE3.0 with a special pocketpc gui installed.

      --
      Jeremy
    3. Re:Windows CE, ugh. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, put linux on it, which is in perpetual beta stage.

  15. Bet they're focussing on battery life by NigelJohnstone · · Score: 1

    They've probably used aggressive power saving on the chip to save every electron but at the expense of performance.

    Thats not such a bad thing, most of these things run address books and sync to email. The battery is the real problem with them, not the fact it can't encode video streams!

    Sure they'll get a few complaints, but nothing like the slating they've been getting for the battery life problem.

  16. Re:Seems obvious, bus speed & not enough cache by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    bus speed has gone down from 103MHz to 100MHz now unless they've significantly beefed up the amount of cache this is going to hurt you alot

    A 3% decrease in bus speed is not going to "hurt you alot", especially not when the CPU clock's almost doubling.

  17. Re:WORD! by Verizon+Guy · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Is "(Score:-1, Flamebait)" just another way of saying "OMG, he's right, but we don't want stuff like that getting out!"

    --

    Aw, fuck it. Let's go bowling. - The Big Lebowski

  18. that deserves a... by g4dget · · Score: 2
    SUWANJINDAR (of Microsoft): "Our software remains the same. This is the same Pocket PC 2002 software that performs fabulously across other ARM processors (StrongARM 1110, OMAP710, etc).

    Well, that statement clearly deserves a +5 Funny.

  19. Markedroid Gobbledygook by timeOday · · Score: 1
    THOUGHTS: Early reports based on those who own the Toshiba e740 Pocket PC 2002 device are telling us that XScale at 400 MHz performs slower than a StrongARM at 206 MHz on some tasks. This came as a surprise to many people.
    SUWANJINDAR: "We are aware that PXA250 (XScale)-based devices are not demonstrating the huge performance gains that were anticipated. That said, Pocket PCs continue to offer the best performance and the richest functionality vs. other handhelds on the market today."
    THOUGHTS: Some of those same analysts have said it will be 2004 until there's an OS that can use the XScale CPU properly. Is that an accurate estimate?
    SUWANJINDAR: "It's too early to talk about the next version of our software. That said, we're committed to delivering best-in-class functionality and performance while providing a foundation that enables our developer community to continue to innovate and build successful businesses on our platform.
    I find this sort of talk simply insulting. Couldn't he even find some irrelevant facts to spin in support of his cause? How stupid do they think we are?
    1. Re:Markedroid Gobbledygook by morgajel · · Score: 2

      that' depends on who you mean by "How stupid do they think we are?"

      Are you talking about your average consumer, or are you talking about the average slashdot reader?

      (Afer allhow many slashdotters would buy this product anyways?)

      --
      Looking for Book Reviews? Check out Literary Escapism.
  20. It's the OS by waytoomuchcoffee · · Score: 2

    MS admits in the linked article that the OS is not "optimized". It fails to use the new ARM instruction set, and worse, does not seem to use the power-management capabilities of the XScale. Supposedly the Xscale uses half the power of the StrongARM, but battery tests on the new PPCs do not show this savings. This fix will be a while coming, as the next version of the OS does not appear to be optimized either.

    Interestingly, Asus in their upcoming Xscale PPC is coming up with workarounds, such as on the fly automatic clock and voltage throttling. So while the Xscale supports capabilites that MS is not using, the vendors are not waiting for next year for MS to get their act together.

    Hopefully the vendors will also figure out a way to speed up the terrible benchmarks of the Xscale PPCs.

    1. Re:It's the OS by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 2

      Terrible? It beats the iPaq in every area except for memory moves, and graphics. Memory moves are not that much slower either. Are we quibbling about mere microseconds?? I believe the problem could be the OS but may be more likely to be with the ATI chip. Rumor has it the driver has not truely been released yet.

      --

      Gorkman

    2. Re:It's the OS by waytoomuchcoffee · · Score: 1

      Considering that its running at 400MHz compared to the 206 of the Ipaq, then yes, those benchmarks are terrible.

      Bonus *off* for replies.

    3. Re:It's the OS by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 1

      For a category that has NEW silicon running it! Driver problems can create lots of issues. The imageon 100 graphics processor they are using in the Toshiba is brand new. My point is are we expecting too much out of a device that oculd have been rushed? I mean how fast do you need your contact list to come up?? As long as it plays MP3's fine, it works good for me. Also, this is nothing like a x86 chip. I t has all kinds of optimizations for power concerns and is also a RISC processor I believe. It's too soon to create any verdict on the Xscale. There's only ONE model out now (in the US....Japan has the really cool new Genio model that won't be here for a while). Also, HP iPaqs are due out soon as well. Palm is also going to Xscale too. The Xscale is a god processor, it's just too soon to issue sucks/doesn't suck verdict on it right now. Personaly, I like my e740 very much and owuld NEVER step DOWN to an iPaq. Besides I hate them sleds anyway (why can't they include a CF sled instead of the usless basic sled).

      --

      Gorkman

    4. Re:It's the OS by waytoomuchcoffee · · Score: 2

      *** For a category that has NEW silicon running it!***

      Um, yes, it is new silicon. That doesn't make the benchmarks any better. It's new silicon with terrible benchmarks. What is your point? Saying it will get better later doesn't make it good now.

      And while you only care about MPEGs, some people care about performance and battery life. Some people run apps that use a bit more processing power than "contact lists", even if you don't.

      Bonus *off* for replys.

    5. Re:It's the OS by xswl0931 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I believe the point is that the benchmarks were not *terrible*. Terrible implies that the new processor is = the old 206 Mhz one, which certainly isn't the case. The problem is that people expect a 400Mhz processor to give about a 2x performance increase over the old 206Mhz one, but for a bunch of geeks, it's amazing how easily you people forget that 1Mhz != 1Mhz when you're comparing different processors (even if they both use the same instruction set), such as AMD vs. Intel. Speaking of Intel, remember that Intel realized that common folk are easily sold on a high Mhz number rather than instructions processed per clock cycle, so Intel obviously designed their processors (Pentium family and StrongArm family) to scale up to high Mhz.

    6. Re:It's the OS by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 2

      THANK YOU! Exactly my point. I do believe it SHOULD be better, but there are SO many new things in the Toshiba e740 that it just was not possible to get everything right software wise. The Xscale, the imageon, the integrated wireless all make for one really really small and very complex device. The firmware is BOUND to have problems. This much should be a given. All things said, I have yet to see the people's problems with things like wireless (been pretty flwaless here), and video. There are annoying things like the buttons taking a vacation after using the wireless sometimes, a weird block in the messenger program command bar, weirdness with the notes app when storing notes on the SD card instead of memory, the ANNOYING "feature" of enabling the radio when doing a soft reset (I WANT TO LEAVE IT OFF IF IT WAS OFF DAMMIT!) and others. I have only had it for a week so it's hard to say if that's all the bugs, but those are the ones I notice. Personally, for a desktop, I would rather have a 450 MHz SPARC or RS/6000 instead of what I have. At least both Sun and IBM run more QA stuff then the PC manufacturers do! That 450 Mhz risc machine would run rings around any PC I could get (with exception of a Itanium, properly configured...). RISC machines are proof that doubling MHz will not necessarily double performance.

      --

      Gorkman

    7. Re:It's the OS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That 450 Mhz risc machine would run rings around any PC I could get (with exception of a Itanium, properly configured...). RISC machines are proof that doubling MHz will not necessarily double performance.

      You dont visit SPEC much, I take it.

  21. Good Application for PR Rating by timeOday · · Score: 2, Funny
    Itroducing the Toshiba e740 Pocket PC 2002, now with a Genuine Intel XScale PR 166+* processor!

    *Actual clock speed 400 mhz

  22. Re:Seems obvious, bus speed & not enough cache by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    I did n't mean the 3MHz drop hurts you alot, I meant that if you compare the clock to bus speed ratio you're looking at a 50% reduction in bus speed compared to cpu clock rate.

    If there is not enough cache memory increasing processor clock speed will not have a positive affect on performance because the real effective clock rate will be bound by how fast the processor can fetch data from main memory.

  23. Another case of inflated MHz not paying off? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Well, OK, the inflated MHz of the Pentium 4 does
    actually pay off, I mean, the IPC (Instructions
    per cycle) went downhill with the P4, so it
    doesn't perform as well as you might expect from
    a chip with that many MHz, but Intel managed to
    get so many MHz out of the P4 that, in the end,
    it is still much faster than a P3. Still, I
    could imagine that in the case of XScale, the
    IPC became so horrible that even having twice as
    many MHz (as the StrongArm) doesn't save the
    chip.

    Mind you, that is just a wild, uninformed guess.

    1. Re:Another case of inflated MHz not paying off? by _Marvin_ · · Score: 2, Interesting

      OK, so I whould have read the story before posting...
      It's simply Intel moving to a new instruction set (ARM V5) and building a (slow) emulation of the old one (ARM V4), and Microsoft says it would be horribly difficult to support two different instruction sets, so the choice was to either live with the new CPU performing slower than the old one or cut off support for the old hardware.

      Hmmmmm, yet another thing (like the OS modularity) that MS seems to be unable to do, while my Gentoo Linux is doing it by default. The sourcecode to their products has to be a complete and utter mess if they can't even get it to take advantage of new instruction sets without dropping compatibility.

      --
      "We won't use guns, we won't use bombs, we'll use the one thing we've got more of and that's our minds" - Pulp
  24. Backward compatibility == poor excuse by starling · · Score: 1

    MS : "Moving to ARM V5 would break upgrade compatibility."

    Translation : "We can't or won't write portable code."

    There's absolutely no technical reason they can't take advantage of the V5 enhancements while still retaining support for ARM V4 and a common code base. This must have been a business decision, but I can't fathom the thought processes which led to it.

    1. Re:Backward compatibility == poor excuse by starling · · Score: 1

      Did you ever consider MS's other responses at face value, ie, they did not recompile for V5 because it would render incompatible all their partners and clients applications

      Yes I did, and they don't hold any water. I suggest you read your response above and consider why it doesn't make any sense (hint - the OS is not an application). Like I said, this has to have been a business decision.

      Having said that, your point about MS not liking multiplatform support is spot on. MS has some very competent programmers - that's not at issue. The problem is at the corporate decision making level.

      As to solving all their problems with a tarted up p-code system, well, if that's going to work at any sort of acceptable speed then they'll *really* need to optimise for the processor.

  25. in anticipation of a slashdotting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here's the text:

    Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 1:31 pm Post subject: XScale and the Pocket PC - what's going on?

    With all the anticipation over the Intel XScale processor running at 400 MHz, expectations were high that any Pocket PC would double in speed. You double the MHz from 206 to 400 and the Pocket PC should get twice as fast, right? Not exactly. There are many issues that relate to overall device speed, not the least of which is software. Ed Suwanjindar from the Microsoft Mobile Devices group responded to my questions via email on this issue. I'll post my own thoughts on this issue under a separate entry. On to the Q&A!

    THOUGHTS: Early reports based on those who own the Toshiba e740 Pocket PC 2002 device are telling us that XScale at 400 MHz performs slower than a StrongARM at 206 MHz on some tasks. This came as a surprise to many people.

    SUWANJINDAR: "We are aware that PXA250 (XScale)-based devices are not demonstrating the huge performance gains that were anticipated. That said, Pocket PCs continue to offer the best performance and the richest functionality vs. other handhelds on the market today."

    THOUGHTS: I've seen a few articles on line saying it's Microsoft's fault for not having an optimized OS in place for the XScale launch. What is Microsoft's response to this?

    SUWANJINDAR: "Our software remains the same. This is the same Pocket PC 2002 software that performs fabulously across other ARM processors (StrongARM 1110, OMAP710, etc). We made a hard decision several years ago to move away from supporting several processor architectures and target a single core. This was a difficult decision that we think ultimately benefited our OEMs, developers and customers by unifying our platform around single processor architecture -- ARM V4. The PXA250 utilizes the ARM V5 instruction set with backwards compatibility for ARM V4. When we completed the Pocket PC 2002 software in June 2002, we optimized for the most broadly compatible processor core available at the time (ARM V4), which it still remains today. Choosing to support one processor core ensures we don't fragment our platform for developers and cause extra work for our ISVs to optimize their applications each time a new processor technology is released.

    By staying with ARM V4 architecture we assure longer life spans for our customers existing hardware - for instance if we were to move to an ARM V5 architecture we would have to obsolete the all SA1110 iPAQ devices. Protecting the investments of our developers and customers is very important to us. To that end we've worked to make our devices upgradeable. Moving to ARM V5 would break upgrade compatibility. We're not prepared to strand an installed base of over 2 million iPAQ users."

    THOUGHTS: Some industry analysts have said that Microsoft doesn't have any fix in place because Intel couldn't get the chips out in time.

    SUWANJINDAR: "We have implemented and released specific software changes that our hardware partners are implementing without breaking compatibility for our OEMs and users. While we believe there may be incremental gains that could be had via small optimizations we are not convinced there are across the board improvements that would amount to any kind of dramatic system wide speed up. We have to develop software based on the processor architecture that offers the broadest compatibility for developers and when we shipped Pocket PC 2002 as it still is today, that was ARM V4."

    THOUGHTS: Some of those same analysts have said it will be 2004 until there's an OS that can use the XScale CPU properly. Is that an accurate estimate?

    SUWANJINDAR: "It's too early to talk about the next version of our software. That said, we're committed to delivering best-in-class functionality and performance while providing a foundation that enables our developer community to continue to innovate and build successful businesses on our platform.

    Microsoft considers mobile devices a strategic business. We are committed to working closely with Intel and other silicon vendors on delivering future versions of our Pocket PC and Smartphone devices. We have released specific software modifications to our OEMs that in total are all of the optimizations we believe are possible to maximize PXA250 performance (without causing incompatibilities for our OEMs and developers)."

    THOUGHTS: This isn't a good story for the Pocket PC and as more XScale devices hit the market, the issue will get more obvious and ultimately become more serious.

    SUWANJINDAR: "Agreed, this isn't a good story. Very simply, we think this is one of those times when the technical reality didn't measure up to market expectations. That said for people who use these products, this isn't a big deal. I've used both of the new XScale products that are out there (new Toshiba and iPAQ). They offer the same type of performance that I've come to expect on a Pocket PC. I think the market expectation of what performance on a 400 MHz processor vs. 206 MHz processor has been unreasonable. In the mobile device space, we don't think that MHz is what ultimately matters to customers. What matters the most in this market is whether customers can do what they want to do with devices quickly and easily. With the richest set of software applications built into any PDA on the market, and the strong momentum that Pocket PC has with developers writing for our platform, we think that customers will be able to do the things they want to do with the performance they expect on devices using PXA250 processors."

    1. Re:in anticipation of a slashdotting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've seen this site get Slashdotted before and the server didn't buckle. What makes it cool for you to steal this content and completely re-publish it here? Shit, give the site it's moment of glory, would ya?

  26. I might add..... by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This complaint was also based on the FIRST Xscale pda to EVER be released. Sure there's GOING to be problems. The iPaq started off with similar issues, but you don't hear anyone talking about it now do ya? There's alot of reasons that add up to create the total performance picture. Maybe Toshiba used cheaper internal ram? Maybe they need more memory for video (I think it has like 256 K maybe?? I don't know but I know it has dedicated video ram). The point is the performance on ONE Xscale based PocketPC does not make a prediction on how the others will perform. Also as these are flashable, we can expect even the Toshiba to get better performance as flash updates are made available.

    --

    Gorkman

    1. Re:I might add..... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Man, I wish I weren't under an NDA. I have a lot that I could contribute to this discussion. All I can say is:

      * It isn't *all* Microsoft's fault.

      * Things might get somewhat better as Intel figures out how to optimize code for XScale without screwing up the present chips.

      * The overall XScale performance has been a little bit disappointing even when using code optimized for it. However, the disappointing performance might improve as you said with improved underlying architecture as the technology improves.

      This seems to just be a replay of Intel's Pentium Pro game. Or a replay of the P3 -> P4 transition. Intel releases new chip, then shifts blame to software company for not taking full advantage of the chip. Software manufacturer doesn't want to splinter market or degrade performance of existing code on existing hardware, so they tell Intel to suck it up.

  27. I'm not suprised by af_robot · · Score: 1

    This fits perfectly in Intel's "Megahertz sells" paradigm.
    Just push clockspeed up at any cost - who cares about performance? It's already running windows - so what can you expect?!

    1. Re:I'm not suprised by cheezedawg · · Score: 1

      Just push clockspeed up at any cost - who cares about performance?

      What? It's true that clock speed alone isn't a valid measure, but it is certainly a very important part of the equation. Intel's "Megahertz sells" paradigm is turning out to be a pretty effective strategy. They have been able to jack up their clock speeds almost at will (2.533 GHz on the P4 now with a clear path to 3.3 GHz by the end of the year). On the other hand, AMD has been struggling all year to speed up their processors. The result is that Intel is leaving AMD in the dust. As toms hardware puts it, "the Athlon design is already a bit outdated and is now reaching its limits."

      The consensus is that performance problems with the new XScale platform are because of poor software - not because of flaws in the hardware.

      --
      "The defense of freedom requires the advance of freedom" - George W Bush
  28. Both the ARM and the MS ARM compilers are affected by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In Intel's implementation of the
    XScale architecture they have made
    a great deal of changes. I suppose
    it's Intel's way of forcing you to
    go their way rather than with other
    vendors, because to support the XScale
    and get decent performance you need:

    1) Rewrite your assembly code to handle
    problems with their memory controller.

    Code written for ARM920 cores perform
    better than XScale using existing code.

    This sucks for embedded software developers
    because they have to branch their code
    base to support the 'XScale', because
    Intel has to be different.

    2) Find a new compiler that will actually
    optimize for the XScale. Pocket PC
    development uses Microsoft's ARM compiler.
    Palm OS development for OS 5.0 requires
    ARM Ltd's ADS 1.X tool chain, which likewise
    is not optimized for XScale.

    So as a developer you are hit with two major
    failings: (1) Branching code just to optimize
    for XScale and (2) Lack of compilers to support
    XScale.

    Is it any wonder, embedded design houses are
    switching to ARM9 cores by other companies?

    Me.

  29. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  30. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 3, Informative

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  31. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 2

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  32. To hell with Pocket PCs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This runs Quake2. Really. http://www.oqo.com/

  33. Re:It's the OS and the Compiler by ceallaigh · · Score: 2, Informative

    Without a compiler that has optimizations for the XScale, you will still get poor performance. So all the tweaks in the world to your existing code base will be for nought without a corresponding change in the compiler which is targeted for ARM7/9 cores and has only basic support for XScale.

  34. Is this a PDA? by Felinoid · · Score: 1

    When shopping for a PDA I don't remember speed meaning anything but "cost to much"

    People buy PDAs for cheap lap tops or simple organisers. Nither needs speed.

    Pocket PCs can get faster and faster while Palm Os PDAs outsell them.

    The Palm Os devices are cheaper and use less power.
    This is becouse they are slower.

    It's not speed... it's memory....
    Handspring Visors have memory cartrages and the Palm m500 use media cards so while Power PC devices play with added speed and don't get it Palm os devices get added memory.

    Thies things are just portable databanks they aren't for processing information just storing it.

    Want to play MP3s? Slap on an MP3 player... a sound chip that has an mp3 incoder built in and some added ram.

    Want to do presentations? Slap on a presentaion device.

    Go on the Internet? Snap on a wireless... (Unless it's built in)

    Play Quake? compile data?

    Hotsync with desktop...

    I'm looking for a keyboard and a wireless for my Visor (the i705 can't handle telnet) so I can use a shell account from my PDA...
    I'm not going to have any real computting power on a PDA. Thats not what a PDA is for.

    --
    I don't actually exist.
    1. Re:Is this a PDA? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People buy PDAs for cheap lap tops or simple organisers. Nither needs speed.

      Wrong.

      >i>It's not speed... it's memory....

      Wrong; it's both.

      Handspring Visors have memory cartrages and the Palm m500 use media cards so while Power PC devices play with added speed and don't get it Palm os devices get added memory

      Sigh. Dumbass; nearly all Pocket PC's have compact-flash support for 128/256/512/1024 meg "memory cartrages", as you say.

      Thies things are just portable databanks they aren't for processing information just storing it.

      Wrong. There are a huge number of applications (medical, etc) where processing on the handheld is vital. There are entire fields of science and engineering that are going to be revolutionized once handhelds get out of the stone age. Such processing power is DESPERATELY needed, yet dumbass luddites like yourself continue to convince other morons in the marketplace that there is no demand for such devices.

      Do you fully understand how EVIL you are? People are DYING in hospitals due to medical errors and timing issues that could be essentially eliminated by a sufficiently advanced portable computing system. You are actively preventing those technologies from being developed as fast as they otherwise would be.

      Why do you lack the braincells to comprehend that other people have a NEED for such devices? Have you ever considered that just because you and your tiny little brain can't grasp the myriad, obvious practical applications for such a device, that doesn't mean that the need for those applications don't exist?

      Post your paypal account and maybe somebody will send you a quarter so you can buy a clue.

    2. Re:Is this a PDA? by steveha · · Score: 2
      People buy PDAs for cheap lap tops or simple organisers. Nither needs speed.

      Wrong.

      More right than wrong. I know that the PocketPC cannot currently do anything I need that a Palm PDA cannot do.

      Once PDAs are available with much much faster processors and tons of RAM, people will find new uses for them. But as things are today, given a choice between the battery life of a Palm or the power of a PocketPC, most people choose the Palm.

      Do you fully understand how EVIL you are? People are DYING in hospitals due to medical errors and timing issues that could be essentially eliminated by a sufficiently advanced portable computing system.

      Oh, rubbish, and shame on you. I don't believe for a second that PocketPCs (or any other single gadget) can magically solve the problems of hospitals. And I'm dubious about PocketPCs at all in hospitals; they do crash.

      You are actively preventing those technologies from being developed as fast as they otherwise would be.

      Wow, he sure has a lot of power to affect technological development in the world. That or else you are being insanely over-the-top.

      steveha
      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
    3. Re:Is this a PDA? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I know that the PocketPC cannot currently do anything I need that a Palm PDA cannot do

      Once again, the words of an idiot. Has it ever occurred to your tiny brain that other people might want to do things you haven't even considered?

      Oh, rubbish, and shame on you. I don't believe for a second that PocketPCs (or any other single gadget) can magically solve the problems of hospitals

      Then you know nothing of the domain. I'm personally aware of six different companies that are waiting for sufficient processing power to be available to solve specific emergency medical software issues (tracking, meds, imaging, etc.) The statistics on error-related deaths (many which could be almost COMPLETELY eliminated by technological solutions) are also well-known within the industry (about 5 times as many people die from malpractice than die from handguns in the US, and the numbers are even higher in other nations). His (and your) guilt is not hyperbole; ideas have consequences, and his (and your) ideas are killing thousands of people every year.

      Wow, he sure has a lot of power to affect technological development in the world

      Idiots generally do. It isn't necessarily the single idiot standing alone; but the other idiots that flock to his siren call. Every time there's some hand-held PC article on Slashdot, the same luddites repeat their mantra of "I don't need that power; therefore nobody needs that power". The problem is that other idiots (for example, the management and marketing of the large corporations responsible for further development) see these nonsense posts here and elsewhere and start advocating that view when the time for R&D budget reallocations come around. Trivial platform advances are ignored.

    4. Re:Is this a PDA? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then they should consider using a Linux PDA like the Sharp Zaurus - th PocketPC OS is shit,
      the PalmOS is shit. EPOC32 and Linux are not.

      I've developed for all four, and it breaks down:

      Pocket PC: bloated, buggy (both platform and development enviornment), proprietary, full of "features" that only make sense if you're only using other MS proprietary systems. Inexplicably badly designed UI (still!), with tabs that don't look like tabs, "X" buttons that don't close windows, and lots of other wierdness.

      PalmOS : slim, relatively devoid of "modern" OS features like multitasking and memory protection. Even so, main problem lack of CPU speed in PalmOS devices, not OS itself.

      Linux: bloated (but less bloated then Pocket PC). "Immature" so lacks a fair few applications (changing fast). In other respects, pretty damn cool. Near-ideal for custom in-house applications.

      EPOC32: (Symbian): non-bloated, easy to develop for, polished UI More mature than linux.

    5. Re:Is this a PDA? by steveha · · Score: 2

      Once again, the words of an idiot.

      If you are trolling, then grow up and go do something else.

      If you are not trolling, I suggest you take a course in how to effectively communicate your ideas without being a jerk.

      I figure you have to be a troll; is anyone this abrasive and annoying without working at it?

      Have a nice day.

      steveha

      --
      lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
  35. It's All a Question of Cache by emulac · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Intel PXA250 has only 32K/32K of cache, which means that any real application will experience an extremely high cache miss rate. The memory bus is 16 or 32 bits, and has a maximum clock rate of 100 MHz. So, if you're running the maximum width bus at its maximum speed, you're likely to see an instruction dispatch rate of about 50~100 million ops/second. That's slow, and there's really nothing to be done short of adding much more cache.

  36. Re:It's the OS and the Compiler by quarter · · Score: 1

    If you are doing anything that requires performance, you shouldn't rely on the compiler. Intel has their "Integrated Performance Primitives" which give you a nice abstraction layer so you can wring the most power out of each processor without having to hand code asm for each one.

  37. And the Linux answer to Dotnet is...? by alext · · Score: 2

    the next version of Pocket PC - that will surely have a .NET runtime in it. That will make all the problems go away, won't it? Just compile the apps to IL, target, and distribute.

    Let's hope your skepticism is justified. Because if it isn't, Linux as a platform will be in very serious trouble.

    Linux has no answer to cross-platform code, the one exception being Gnome with Mono. If that remains the only effort, and continues to attract hype and developer support, one day soon we'll wake up and find that the single viable open source platform to write to is under the technical direction of Microsoft.

    However did this happen?

    1. Re:And the Linux answer to Dotnet is...? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Did you forget about C and Java? C is source code compatible across CPU's, and Java is byte code compatible across CPU's (and operating systems...). It's not clear what Mono adds to the mix.

  38. Re:Seems obvious, bus speed & not enough cache by KlausB · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There are no new ARMv5 instructions that affect performance in any noticable way for general purpose computing (i.e using an optimized C-Compiler with your old code).

    The main new instructions are:

    - a "find first one bit in word" instruction, which helps software division and huffman encoding

    - some DSP-instructions like 16x16 bit multiplication/40Bit add for filters (audio-encoding, etc)

    Both these enhancencents more or less require assembly coding

    The other major architectural enhancements are branch-prediction (offset by higher penalties on branch misses) and larger caches (32K dcache versus 8K and 32K icache vs 16K, if i remember correctly)

    However, the cache latency has increased from 1 to 3 cycles.

    It means that when you load a value from memory and hit the cache, the compiler needs to find 3 unrelated instructions you can execute before you can use the result in the fourth instruction after the load.

    This is a severe blow if your compiler does not figure it in, and even if it tries, or if you use assembly, you often cannot find three such instructions (table walks, or under register pressure)

    In the worst case (table-walk, LUT's), this effectively halves your processor speed.

    As far as i know, the bus interface has not improved from the SA1110, and this was not too efficient to start with (does not exploit accessing preloaded bank, cache-line has to be .clompletely filled before execution, etc)

    Apart from that, there are some issues in the PXA silicon, which I think force some timeconsuming workarounds (extra cache flushes, Writeback-cache does not work, slow bus cycles). I would guess that these affect performance even more than the 100MHz SDRAM clock - after all that's about what you find in your 1GHz+ P-III-design.

    However, this is only what i gathered from the datasheets, I have not yet used a PXA system as it does not yet seem to be an improvement over the SA1110 that justifies a new design.

  39. Before blaming Intel... by zealot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Before blaming Intel for going with an Arm 5 core with "slow" (slow being relative, as the benchmarks vary) Arm 4 emulation, remember that all they did was produce a CPU for the embedded market that can run on batteries. The MS Pocket PC market is just one market for these processors. They want them used in cell phones and powering all kinds of devices, just like the StrongArm did.

    Obviously, they felt that the majority of their customers would want an Arm5 based device. Wait a few months, and you might see some pretty impressive cell phones or linux based devices that use Arm5.

    The complaint against Intel is only legitimate if their Arm5 scores are terrible. Otherwise it is the fault of the device maker for using a chip that doesn't perform well for the task at hand, or MS for not optimising.

    --
    He said, "You'll be able to tell your grandchildren that you helped assemble the first NT supercomputer," and I cringed.
    1. Re:Before blaming Intel... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Intel did no such thing.

      They acquired an absolutely brilliant design from Digital, sat on it for years and failed to make improvements.

  40. This is not correct by KlausB · · Score: 1

    Marvin wrote:
    > It's simply Intel moving to a new instruction set (ARM V5)
    > and building a (slow) emulation of the old one (ARM V4),
    > and Microsoft says it would be horribly difficult to
    > support two different instruction sets, so the choice was to either
    > live with the new CPU performing slower than the old one or
    > cut off support for the old hardware.

    This is not correct.

    All ARMV4 instructions are implemented natively in the XSCALE core.

    The XSCALE core, just as the SA1110, executes almost all ARMV4 instructions in one clock, and, as far as I remember, uses more clocks only for very few instructions:

    - shift register by register (2 instead of 1)
    - mul / mul-acc (extra latency cycle in some cases)
    - branch miss in the added BPU
    - maybe some coprocessor accesses

    Except for an assembly rewrite of some inner loops in the kernel, there is not much MS can do about the Memory interface that hasn't scaled with the CPU clock.

    I do not think that compiler tweaking will gain much more than 10% in performance.

  41. I would MOD this up... by benjamindees · · Score: 1

    but I haven't any points. I'll just throw out the Compaq Aero series as another MIPS arch that was very quickly made useless. Not to say it was ever very useful. We bought five but the sync process was so shitty that we never used them.

    --
    "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
  42. Re:Seems obvious, bus speed & not enough cache by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Perhaps the wince programmers should stop programming it like it were a pentium...

  43. ARMv5 versus ARMv4 and why Intel sucks by jeffmock · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's important to differentiate between architecture optimizations
    and CPU specific optimizations. The ARMv5 instruction set is a
    relatively minor architectural tweak to the ARMv4 instruction set.
    The names give you the impression that it's some grand change between
    v4 and v5, if a technical guy did the naming it would be ARMv4 and
    ARMv4.01. ARM is playing some games with architecture naming
    to protect their business position with patents in a silly way.

    ARMv5 adds a couple of new instructions over v4, an instruction to count
    leading zeros in a register (which a compiler would likely never
    use), and a better method of switching between the ARM instruction
    set and the 16-bit Thumb instruction set. The later isn't
    relevant for PocketPC since Thumb mode isn't supported. I think
    v5 might having a new debugging hook as well.

    The new XScale parts are ARMv5te, the T is for the 16-bit Thumb
    instruction set, which no one seems to care about. The "E" adds
    some DSP oriented instructions that are pretty interesting for
    media codecs and such. They are the MMX equivalent for the ARM
    world. They likely won't improve performance of the general
    purpose aspects of the platform.

    I think it's a red herring to chase Microsoft for not optimizing for
    the ARMv5, the changes are really small and I don't see any
    performance impact, certainly not if you have to maintain another
    version for all of the strongARM based products.

    Now, as far as CPU specific optimizations for the PXA250 (XScale)
    implementation of the ARM architecture. IMHO Intel chased
    MHz and left behind a lot of good sense about system performance.
    The high order bit is bus performance as others have already
    pointed out.

    In addition to the bus performance, Intel made many tradeoffs
    to optimize for clock speed: The 7-stage pipe has a 4-clock penalty
    for a mis-predicted branch. This is compared to the circuit
    design heroics in the strongARM that implements "all branches
    are 2-cycles". The Xscale approach is much more complicated, it
    probably doesn't perform any better, but you get a high clock speed.

    Intel adds clock cycles to all load/store-multiple instructions
    in Xscale. This is a pretty big deal in ARM since they are
    used in the entry and exit of most C functions, in memcpy(),
    and any time you are moving chunks bigger than a register.

    The load-use penalty is bigger in Xscale. This is a pretty big
    deal in ARM. The ARM instruction set is pretty compact. It is a
    RISC processor, but the combination of shifting operations
    combined with ALU operations makes it possible for a good compiler
    to generate reasonably compact code. As a result, it's harder
    for a compiler to put instructions between a load and instructions
    that use the destination of the load. This is another trade-off
    in Xscale that allows a higher clock speed but hurts performance
    otherwise.

    I go on too long, but the DEC designed strongARM used in the SA1100
    is a tour-de-force of clean implementation and balanced system
    performance. It's amazing that core was designed in 1993 (I think,
    someone please correct me) and is still the leader for handheld
    apps. The Intel guys went after clock speed at the expense of
    everything else in Xscale and it will probably never optimize well
    for a platform like PocketPC.

    jeff

    1. Re:ARMv5 versus ARMv4 and why Intel sucks by FrankDrebin · · Score: 2, Informative

      Somebody, please mod this up because jeff is right damn it!!!

      I've worked with both the SA-11x0 (StrongARM) and the PXA250 "Cotulla" (Xscale) CPUs and everything jeff says is pretty much on the money (except the CLZ instruction is far from useless, it's *awesome* for fixed-point logarithms, dude).

      Also, the DSP coprocessor in the X-scale is about as useful as tits on a bull for codecs with 16-bit data streams. You spend so many clocks marshalling data around to get it in and out of the thing that it's *much* more efficient to use the MAC instructions native to ARM v4 on normal registers! Even the Intel engineers who put together their IPP's have avoided the DSP coprocessor since it provides no real advantage.

      It's pretty clear to me the v4/v5 thing is a red herring. Let's face it DEC was much better at putting out a general purspose ARM-based CPU than Intel.

      --
      Anybody want a peanut?
    2. Re:ARMv5 versus ARMv4 and why Intel sucks by Grishnakh · · Score: 2

      Well, comparing the Alpha (designed in the 80's) to the Itanium, it seems DEC was much better at designing all kinds of CPUs than Intel.

    3. Re:ARMv5 versus ARMv4 and why Intel sucks by ceallaigh · · Score: 1

      I likewise have worked with both the StrongARM and the Cotulla and Sabinal flavors of the XScale. The performance problems are real and in fact it was very difficult to get Intel to own up to it. Only after we had clear data showing what was going on that they came forward and revealed to us that there was a problem. I really fealt that Intel was not being very open about these issues. There is nothing particularly innovative with the V5 architecture and Intel will try to hype it for as much as it's worth but as the previous poster noted, it's more a variant of V4 with deeper pipeline and the extended DSP functions. Overall, the ld/str multiple performance is pathetic without changes to your standard C library routines.

    4. Re:ARMv5 versus ARMv4 and why Intel sucks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's sooo funny, after 5 years the Newton ghost is STILL haunting the PDA market!!! Eternal shame on you, Steve Jobs!!! ;)))

      Cheers
      Ervino

  44. Maths by leonbrooks · · Score: 2

    Simple arithmetic: if it was CPU-bound, halving the clockspeed should roughly halve the FPS. Suspect the graphics chip. BTW, having it beaten by an iPaq in a graphics benchmark sucks rocks. A friend of mine got a 50-fold speed improvement in iPaq graphics by rewriting the GDI driver. Either the gfx driver is broken or there's something badly wrong with the gfx hardware.

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  45. Well, mail it to me by leonbrooks · · Score: 2

    We can use MIPS portables here.

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  46. i cant believe this post will be modded down.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Imagine a beowulf cluster of these!

  47. European office suite to the rescue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    My workpad z50 and sharp mobilion are both pieces of junk that get no use.

    If you want to get real work done on either of these, you should look here . Too bad MS doesn't ship this software with their wince systems.

    The word processor is awesome, and the spreadsheet and database can't be far behind. Woohoo! I dusted off my old Jornada820 for that. First productive of my Jornada after, what, three years...

    1. Re:European office suite to the rescue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Aaargh. My bad. Should have previewed the link.

      It's word processor for HPC

  48. (snickers) I AM NOT A TROLL by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    ...my diary-keeping...

    Only little girls and girly-men keep diaries. I laugh at you. I unclog my nose in front of you. I fart in your general direction.

  49. Battery life by Mr_Silver · · Score: 2
    I love this comment:

    We are aware that PXA250 (XScale)-based devices are not demonstrating the huge performance gains that were anticipated. That said, Pocket PCs continue to offer the best performance and the richest functionality vs. other handhelds on the market today.

    Translation: We know your new car only goes 40mph instead of the 65mph you old car did, but it beats a bicycle, doesn't it? (credits to Jim S for that one).

    Even better:

    I think the market expectation of what performance on a 400 MHz processor vs. 206 MHz processor has been unreasonable.

    Not at all. The process is almost twice as fast, I don't think it is utterly unreasonable to expect the product to be at least one and a half times faster.

    But my question is, how is the battery life on one of these things? If it really is the 12-16 hours instead of the 8 currently then the XScale is still a worthwhile bet.

    --
    Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
  50. I really doubt that by pslam · · Score: 1
    I haven't worked on X-Scale cpus, but I've certainly worked a ton on StrongARMs. A StrongARM SA-1100 has 16KB code and 8KB data cache. It's half-line 'dirty flag' write-back, 32 bytes per line, 32-way associative, and round robin evicted. The cache is very rarely the bottleneck - low MHz is more often the problem.

    It's usually pretty hard to thrash a code cache to the point of it being the bottleneck. You pretty much have to deliberately write code to do that. For reference, an Athlon has a 64KB code cache, and that's running at a far higher speed than both of these ARM processors. Your figure of 50-100 million ops/second assumes an unreasonable 100% instruction cache miss rate. You'd have to have a program totally devoid of loops to achieve that. At a still unreasonable hit rate of 95% you'd still get 96% ((95*400+5*100)/40000) of full performance.

    My guess why the real world performance is so bad is probably Microsoft's lack of optimization specific to the processor. There's a few trade-offs Intel have made to get the clock higher, including:

    • The latency of the barrel shifter is now 1 clock, instead of free. The compiler will no doubt assume the latter, as will tons of hand coded assembler.
    • The multiplier has higher latency (I think), but you can pipeline it along side loads, stores and arithmetic (nice). It won't have been compiled for this.
    • Loads/stores have higher latency, but you can pipeline them along side other stuff. The load/store multiple instruction has been "obsoleted" such that it's slower than separate instructions. That's pretty major for a compiler to ignore.

    I certainly wouldn't expect to be able to take code targetted for StrongARM and see all of the performance increase that 200->400 would indicate. I can imagine hand coding assembler to work around the latencies and getting near to 100% performance. It's not that hard for a modern compiler to work this out either - a current day x86 is far more difficult to target than an X-Scale.

  51. if you guys could try to get some... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If someone has the source code for PPC2k2 they could try some modifications if they knew what was necessary. I'm not programer but i think it would be sweet if you guys beat microsoft at their own game other companies might try etc.