Kernel Summit Wrapup

Jonathan Corbet at LWN has posted a terrific summary of the first Day of the Ottawa Kernel Summit, and you should expect the second day soon. In it he relates the greatest hits of the first day's talks, including the AMD Hammer Port, Block I/O, Modules, and more. For mp3s or oggs of this event, check out the Kernel Summit MP3 Repository on SourceForge. The big news is the desire to feature freeze 2.5 within 4 or 5 months. Halloween. I've posted a very small gallery of the group pictures from the summit on my site.

Comments

Ottawa Linux Summit

[ChanxOT5]

Not Kernel Summit.

It's insane people actually get paid to run this site.

Re:Ottawa Linux Summit

[ChanxOT5]

Wow.
My bad.

If you get a kneejerk reaction, you just know your foot will endup somewhere painful.

Re:Ottawa Linux Summit

[chrisd]

Uh, lets see, it is in Ottawa, and it is the Kernel Summit. Ottawa linux symposium starts tomorrow, fyi...

chrisd

Re:Ottawa Linux Summit

[Real World Stuff]

Chris, why did ESR leave the VA board? You of all people will answer this question. You still have your compass pointed true. I think this ontopic since he was not in atttendance at the summit. Hell, he has laid very low. What happened?

Re:Ottawa Linux Summit

[Verizon Guy]

He's been out huntin' possum with Ted Nugent.

Re:Ottawa Linux Summit

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe ESR was dumped because VA finally figured out that he can't actually do anything? Better late than never, I guess. And after the CML2 debacle his credibility in the linux world is 0, so even if VA wer still a linux company, havin g him onboard would probably be a negative thing PR-wise.

wow

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, when you look at that picture you can sorta see how alan cox could look like a normal maybe even stylish guy if he chopped off the beard and got a haircut. Sorry fella, bald dudes with long hair look very baaad. Get a john corzine hairdo, for a bald guy he had some good haircuts. And he had a beard. Ya you should get a john corzine make over. The AA meeting janitor look is kinda erm passe'. heh.

I hope they incorporate my patch

[Anonymous Coward]

that makes Linux think it's a Yak.

All kidding aside, Linux kernel hackers should wash more.

Re:I hope they incorporate my patch

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, they should wash the kernel more... but it's so delicate. You don't want it to fade or shrink. Maybe they should have it dry cleaned instead?

Re:I hope they incorporate my patch

[Verizon Guy]

How true. You may brush it off is a stereotype, but as this closeup pic of Alan Cox reveals, it's clear this guy hasn't washed in weeks. I've seen homeless guys that eat out of trashcans that are cleaner than this guy. RedHat should be embarrassed to employ such a filthy pig. He so does not fit the character of "British gentleman"... more like "British homeless guy."

Re:I hope they incorporate my patch

[Anonymous Coward]

He may be filthy, but he's a great coder.
More prolific than 100 normal programmers.

Re:I hope they incorporate my patch

[Carlos Laviola]

I think they hired him to be the excellent coder he is, not to serve tables on a miniskirt. They don't give a shit if he doesn't bathe himself, all they care about is if he's happy enough to keep coding away all day.

Re:I hope they incorporate my patch

[Anonymous Coward]

I think they hired him to be the excellent coder he is, not to serve tables in a miniskirt

First GCC 2.96, now this? Won't RedHat ever stop making these dumb decisions?

/proc

[the_real_tigga]

Just because it was one of the first things on the article, might I mention that (having looked at other UN*Xes, where merele PIDs are stord there) I just *love* the linux /proc directory.

Is there a cooler way to tune your system than "echo 1 > /proc/sys/kernel/lowlatency" or whatever?

Re:/proc

[the_real_tigga]

Some people might think that if you shan't dive into proc if you are not up to what you find there, others think otherwise.

Sorry for taking the bait,

the tigga, smoking cocks since 1976.

Re:/proc

[the_real_tigga]

ok. sorry for replying. please don't kill me.

that said, I would like to karmawhore nonetheless, by enumerating several useful links:

better swearing: c/o MisterBlister
read this first
and should you want to know how sexy swearing can sound for /. trolls like you, this one, too.

to understand the /proc directory

• General Info
• The Linux Kernel API
• /proc in general
• just for network tuning

PS: Oh, yea, and please spare most of my family too, MisterKlistier!

Re:/proc

[Anonymous Coward]

Is there a cooler way to tune your system than "echo 1 > /proc/sys/kernel/lowlatency" or whatever?

Yes, by using proper configuration tools. echo is not a configuration tool, damnit! You don't telnet to a website with cat on a socket, do you? Then why are kernel structures exported via. the filesystem, for Gods sake?

Oh, but it's cool, so its O.K to mix your interfaces into one big ball of goo. I see.

Re:/proc

[Anonymous Coward]

You sir, do not understand Unix. Stay away from it.

Re:/proc

[Anonymous Coward]

No, I do understand Unix, which is why I am questioning the use of the friggin filesystem (For that is what /proc is, a file system) as a kernel interface. This is not the Unix way (Remember; lots of little tools that do their job and do it well?). A kernel interface is a kernel interface. A configuration file is a configuration file. A file system is a file system.

There is nothing wrong with a well defined interface into the kernel for doing these things; you do not need to convolute another system to do it. /proc is an abomination, and certainly not standard Unix.

Re:/proc

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, what is /dev, if not a filesystem interface for the kernel devices?

Re:/proc

[Anonymous Coward]

Originally, the UNIX way was to have ONE namespace; the filesystem. Why do you think /dev exists?

Of course, the drunk and drugged grad students at Berkeley fucked that up royally when they somehow scored the contract to put TCP/IP into an OS.

BSD Sockets are too ingrained to fix now, but at least Linux can fix other things.

Seriously, who want's to mmap kernel address space just to get a list of processes?

How many SGID kmem binaries do you have on that BSD box?

The sooner the free BSDs switch to a proc-like system the better. Most of them support the filesystem, its just the userspace that needs to be brought up into the last decade.

modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[rodgerd]

Rusty started with the claim that the only purpose for modules was adding hardware that you didn't have when you booted your kernel.

Sorry, but this shows a paucity of imagination ("Rusty's smoking crack again"). Modules are useful because I don't have to rebuild the kernel constantly. I love not needing to care if I have to swap ethernet cards - tune /etc/modules.conf, reboot. Not "reconfigure and recompile kernel, fiddle with lilo, reboot".

I also love the fact that distros no longer resemble the bad old days where there where a billion different boot images for installation, depending on which combination of hardware I happen to have. Anyone want to guess the QA costs to RedHat if modules went away?

Rusty's wrong, wrong, wrong.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[bewmIES]

Um, exactly... hardware you didn't have when you booted your kernel.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[Electrum]

If you swap ethernet cards, then it will exist when you boot the kernel, and you can configure it to be loaded with the kernel, at boot time. Being a module doesn't mean it has to be loadable at run time.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[Verizon Guy]

I personally like the Windows 2000 way of:

1) Insert ethernet card into PCI Slot.

2) Flip power switch to "On."

That's it --- it does the rest. If you're on DHCP you're set... just double click on your browser of choice and you're up!

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[Dalcius]

I'd sacrifice ease of MS driver handling for modules for the following reason:

"Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the changes to take effect. Reboot now? [OK]"

I change my system settings more than I change my hardware.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[jmauro]

You've never had a pcmcia or usb ethernet card have you?

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[ipfwadm]

"Your mouse has moved. Windows must be restarted for the changes to take effect. Reboot now? [OK]"

Watching karma fall through the floor for supporting Microsoft...

I have Windows 2000 on one of my systems, and this rebooting-after-everything is not nearly as much of a problem as it once was. Yes, after installing critical updates, the system does need to be rebooted, and some software still requests reboots on installation (which I typically ignore). But gone are the days where changing an IP address or other network settings would require a reboot. That's one of the big things Microsoft tried to do w/ W2K, cut down the number of trivial things that required reboots.

(Disclaimer: the system I'm typing this on is a Linux box that hasn't been rebooted in almost six months)

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[Galvatron]

Funny, same thing happens with me running Red Hat.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[rodgerd]

It works that way in DeadRat (kudzu). But that's a function of the userland, not the kernel.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[rodgerd]

Unless you have hot-swap PCI, hot-swap SCSI, USB, Firewire, PCMCIA/Cardbus devices, CF, or any of the other devices that don't require reboots to change.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[infiniti99]

Depending on the distribution (like, say, Redhat), that may be all you need to do in Linux also. However, I think the underlying system could be a lot better.

I have a mental list of about 5 things Linux needs to be really damn good. Better module support is one of them. Granted, I'm not a driver author, and I really haven't done much with compiling drivers since 2.2, so anyone please correct me if some of this stuff is already in place.

All drivers should be available as an add-on module. The idea here is to be able to load any driver when you need it, and to never have to recompile your kernel.

Binary compatibility between kernel versions. I mean, really, does it change _that_ much? I should be able to load a 2.4.0 driver on a 2.4.1 system. Why should VMWare need to have a bazillion drivers for various kernel versions? Maybe this is too late for older kernels, but how about considering backwards compatibility from this point on? Is it too much to ask that Linux 2.6 drivers should work in 2.8?

A very good interface for which modules can be interacted with (outside of the kernel). Currently there is insmod, which is able to specify additional parameters to a module via command line arguments. But what about errors? Are those returned as an insmod exit code or a standard text format? What about interacting with a module after it is already loaded? Is there a standard for probing whether or not hardware exists, other than simply seeing if the driver fails to load?
The end result is that I should be able to get a diskette from a hardware vendor that contains a nice driver.o file that I can load. If it comes with a driver.c file, then that's great, but I want a .o that I can just use right away.

Having a standard for probing and manipulating drivers is badly needed, so that someone can come along and make a decent Linux driver GUI. Yes, I know about Kudzu and Yast2, but something tells me they are doing a LOT of workarounds and/or "evil hacks" behind the scenes.

Solve this and we are well on our way to making Linux the best it can be. I really hope it is being addressed in 2.5

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[rodgerd]

Broken binary compatability is considered by Linus to be a feature, not a bug. Essentially the kernel developers are unwilling to be constrained in their maniuplation of kernel internals by people who don't want to provide source.

The arguments around this have been hashed out time and time again on the l-k mailing list.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[Dalcius]

Cheers on the 6 months! =)

I *was* being a bit general there, but that's how it is for me. Although I've worked on 2000 and XP, I haven't installed either on my home system -- I stopped at 98 and use it for games alone.

I'm building Gentoo as we speak. =D

MS certainly has it's advantages. But look how far Linux has come in the last 2-3 years. It'll have no problem catching up in the next few, what with the growing popularity (and thus programmer base, hopefully).

I'd venture to say that for normal use, a RH 7.x desktop with Ximian Gnome is easier to use than windows. But that's my opinion, and I'm not Joe Public.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[Anonymous Coward]

The end result is that I should be able to get a diskette from a hardware vendor that contains a nice driver.o file that I can load. If it comes with a driver.c file, then that's great, but I want a .o that I can just use right away.

Well, y'see, there's this OS called Windows, made by this guy Gates... it might suit you better.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[Verizon Guy]

I think they are shooting themselves in the foot by doing that. People should be happy that some companies are providing Linux drivers, let alone having to play by "their" rules. Take for example, the wireless ethernet adapter I have on my WinXP box (it's a Netgear, FYI). The XP Driver blows. Even though it "shipped" with the adapter, it's immature crap -- probably at pre-alpha stage. Drops connections like crazy, etc. So what did I do? Installed the Windows 2000 driver. Just a little tweak (disabling the Zero-config for 802.11 adapters service, to be exact) and it's up and running without a hitch.

If it wasn't for binary driver compatibility with earlier 'kernel versions' (in this case, XP with 2000), I'd be SOL. If you happen to be constrained using a certain hardware component with a binary-only driver, you're stuck at a certain kernel version and can't do a damn thing about it. It's the end-user who's affected ultimately. And that, well plain sucks. Like I said, demanding source just may be crossing the line. Sure, you may not like it, but hey, this is a free country, people can license software under whatever license they want. To live your life with such a constrained philosophy like "I refuse to use non-free-as-in-foo software" is just retarded. I see Linux having the potential of losing people cause of this.

Now the only way this could be advantageous is that that driver/module actually has to be compiled against that certain kernel, proving that it works, at least in theory. But it can prove to be a bitch in a bind. I think this is similar to Microsoft's driver certification, they're just taking a totally different approach to a common problem.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[infiniti99]

Well, y'see, there's this OS called Windows, made by this guy Gates... it might suit you better.

Somehow I knew I'd get a comment like that. I can't tell if you are a Windows user singing its praises, or some die-hard Linux user that wouldn't ever touch modprobe your life depended on it. Either way, your comment completely misses the point.

I find Linux to be a better OS in general, but it is not without flaws. What is the harm in fixing these flaws? I didn't say everyone needs to use a point-n-drool driver GUI. What I want is a better driver layer, so that stuff like that can exist if necessary. In the instance that you're a "die-hard Linux user", then continue to recompile your kernel or uncomment a modprobe line in your Slackware config whenever you want to install hardware. I just see a lot more potential with Linux driver configuration than that.

We ooh and ahh about "apt-get mozilla" or "emerge mozilla". Single commands that do all the hard work for you. Wouldn't it be great to have programs that could do the same kind of things for drivers also? The best part about Linux is that it is so flexible. You are not confined to a GUI or anything. A powerful underlying driver layer means more sane configuration, more powerful driver scripts, and the possibility of making easy-to-use configuration tools. And best of all, you can continue recompiling your kernel just as you may have always done. Yay! Everyone is happy.

My suggestion was to make Linux better, not to make it Windows. I hope you can see the difference.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[bzzzt]

Take for example, the wireless ethernet adapter I have on my WinXP box (it's a Netgear, FYI). The XP Driver blows. Even though it "shipped" with the adapter, it's immature crap -- probably at pre-alpha stage. Drops connections like crazy, etc. So what did I do? Installed the Windows 2000 driver.

So did it ever occur to you that an open source driver doesn't have to "blow", but can be fixed?

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you have hot-swap PCI, hot-swap SCSI, USB, Firewire, PCMCIA/Cardbus devices, CF, or any of the other devices that don't require reboots to change.

Which part of "Um, exactly... hardware you didn't have when you booted your kernel" did you not understand?

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[Verizon Guy]

Neither does a binary one. Point is that whether something is open source or not, there should be a solution.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[Ami Ganguli]

The reality right now is that the vast majority of drivers do provide source, so everything works pretty well. Requiring backwards binary compatibility for the modules interface would hurt everybody (because it creates cruft and a maintenance headache) and benefit only a few short-sighted companies

Remember that the general attitude towards binary-only modules is "we'll tolerate it, but if it breaks you keep both pieces". Nobody is demanding source, they just want to minimize the damage of closed-source code in the kernel. There's no reason everybody should suffer because of a few companies.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't tell if you are a Windows user singing its praises, or some die-hard Linux user that wouldn't ever touch modprobe your life depended on it.

Yeah, I figured you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[Anonymous Coward]

I also love the fact that distros no longer resemble the bad old days where there where a billion different boot images for installation, depending on which combination of hardware I happen to have.

I guess you haven't tried to install Debian Woody on any legacy free systems lately...

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[packeteer]

your assuming a lot with that process... unfortunatly all is not well and peachy in MS drivers land... your process will quickly fail if:

1) your NIC is not supported by MS (happens more than i like)
2) you have all your ASPI, PnP, DMA, I/O, and IRQ setting correct... most defaults work ok but if you have to manually configure anything on your system than you can't count on windows working right all the time...
3) if your NOT on DHCP as you said OR if you want to do anything more than simple web browsing... remember that win2k is officially a step up from NT and is designed for workstation/server markets... these are the type of environments where custom setting are needed...
4) and btw you forgot step 0... first turn the power switch off ;)... sorry to nitpick but its crucial... oh wait... what if you have hot swap PCI and you want to not reboot and potentially cause mission critial data loss... well then maybe 2k wont work for you...

in my opinion win2k works most of the time but is not the best... neither is linux... the closest thing i have found to perfect would be mandrake linux because of the easy 'drake tools suite for auto configuring your system...

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[zenyu]

I have Windows 2000 on one of my systems, and this rebooting-after-everything is not nearly as much of a problem as it once was.

While changing configuration options rarely requires a reboot in 2000, I do find it much easier to install Windows things in WINE than Windows proper. I installed .NET on a work PC and I swear it took more than a dozen reboots and a few hours of rebooting. Later that day I installed all the plugins for crossover and it took less than 20 minutes because the "reboots" were all instantanious.

Not that it would ever happen, but it would be a lifesaver if Microsoft just cleaned up the WINE code and switched to the Linux kernel for Windows YP. Though maybe that Lindows dispute went deeper than we thought. ;)

PS I used try to ignore the reboot prompt whenever I could, but it's resulted in a few burns. I hate reinstalling Windows so I follow it more religiously now.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[vrt3]

But gone are the days where changing an IP address or other network settings would require a reboot.

I agree Windows 2000 is a lot better in this regard compared to Windows NT or Windows 98, but you still have to reboot when you change the computer name!
I have no idea why, because if you use DHCP to retrieve the computer name you don't have to reboot when the DHCP-server changes the name.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[labradore]

Linux is not windows.

Linux is not windows.

Got it? When you use kernel 2.4.x instead of 2.2.x, most of the drivers for the hardware you use are available. If you have hardware that worked in 2.2 that does not work in 2.4 due to a driver that was not updated (incredibly rare) then you can get the source and update it yourself. There is a reason for this. The reason is that you are getting the system for FREE and the source for FREE. If you are using Red Hat or SuSE or Mandrake or Debian and your device is not supported in the new release then complain to them. Don't complain to the kernel people. Their mission is to make a good kernel, not to make it easy for you.

By the way, have you noticed that Windows 98 drivers don't work in W2K or XP? Have you noticed that many W2K CDRW drivers do not work in XP? Even Microsoft understands the virtue of changing binary compatibility.

It turns out that binary compatability is a really bad thing in the case of Linux. Here are some things that have come up at the kernel summit that would make guaranteed binary compatability prohibitively onerous: Async IO, loadable security modules and the coming SCSI changes. Got an old scsi card? Maybe you are running 2.2 or 2.4 right now and will switch to 2.6 when it's released. Async IO looks like it is going to become the normal way for Linux to handle IO. Your 2.2 or 2.4 scsi driver doesn't know about that. LSM also needs hooks in every part of the kernel to work efficiently, your 2.2 scsi dirver doesn't know about that (although it probably doesn't need to), the scsi stuff that is being pushed into the block layer code is probably going to make a pretty big difference for how your scsi driver interfaces with the mid and high level kernel scsi stuff. Binary compatablity for this sort of thing would be a waste of time for the kernel deveopers. The source and the interface specs are out there. It is faster, and more efficient all around to just fix older drivers than to make the clueless end user's life a tiny bit easier.

The right way to make life easier is the current way most modular drivers are able to be built now days. You can have a directory seperate from the kernel source tree that will contain your module criver code and you can tell it to build against your current configuration of the kernel in the source tree directory. This way you don't have to rebuild the whole kernel. You can either download the newest module source, or hack it up yourself and then build or rebuild it as many times as you need to if your module isn't supported in the official stock kernel sources. Binary only modules are just dumb and the vendor will have to be the one to make those modules compatible.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[Jeppe Salvesen]

Dude. If I had to compile in support for all possible hardware devices, my kernel would make xp look light.

Kernel modules are very cost-efficient things when you run a company. Rather than recompiling (or using a bloat-kernel), you can mostly run the same kernel on multiple computers from different vendors.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[eggz128]

By the way, have you noticed that Windows 98 drivers don't work in W2K or XP? Have you noticed that many W2K CDRW drivers do not work in XP? Even Microsoft understands the virtue of changing binary compatibility.

Nit-pick. WDM drivers targetted at Win98 should work with 2k and XP.

'Course, thats should, but I've got at least one device (a digital camera) that worked like this.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[afidel]

Because if you are part of a domain then changing your name results in you reathenticating to the domain, which changes your security identifiers. It is also possible that you are not rejoining the same domain but also changing the domain to which your computer belongs at the same time (pretty common here, computer gets retasked so it is renamed and joins a new resource domain.)

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[Electrum]

Dude. If I had to compile in support for all possible hardware devices, my kernel would make xp look light.

You're missing the point entirely, as did the original poster. The modules don't have to be part of the kernel. You can have modules that only get to be loaded at boot time. This solves the problem of having to being to be loaded and unloaded at run time, and all the various problems that go along with it.

I don't think anyone wants to get rid of modules entirely and put everything into the kernel. They want to eliminate run time loadable and unloadable modules.

Hot swappable hardware is different, as it's designed to be hot swappable. The individual devices can be hot swapped, but the base hardware cannot. You would need to load the module for a USB controller at boot time. The USB devices that use it would be controlled through this driver, and wouldn't need to be part of the kernel.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[Verizon Guy]

By the way, have you noticed that Windows 98 drivers don't work in W2K or XP? Have you noticed that many W2K CDRW drivers do not work in XP? Even Microsoft understands the virtue of changing binary compatibility.

That's cause the driver model was completely distinct, all the way back to the days of Win95 and WinNT 3.51. Win9x used the VXD virtual device driver format, whereas NT *.* used a .sys file format to talk to the HAL. The driver models were entirely different, so I don't think anyone ever expected them to work. It's like taking a binary driver from FreeBSD and expecting it to work on Linux. It just ain't gonna happen.

Re:modules, and why Rusty is wrong:

[darkonc]

It's also for software you didn't have when you booted the kernel (i.e. testing). If you had to reboot your system everytime you made a slight change to your module, it would increase the development time. I also don't think that there's that much difference between a boot-time loaded module system and a run-time loaded module (some, but not that much).

I think the better question is: what is the problem that rusty sees with run-time loadable kernel modules? I'm betting that they save most driver developers more than they cost.

So much for "later in 2.5"

[iabervon]

Considering the number of things that are supposed to go in, including things that aren't really even started (beyond looking a bit at the issues) and things that are likely to be disruptive that haven't started to be merged, Halloween seems rather unrealistic. Of course, pushing off things that haven't been acceptably merged by then until 2.7 would probably make for the reduced-feature 2.6 that nobody wanted to commit to explicitly.

Personally, I like the idea of a 2.6 as soon as the big things which are partially merged are finished, with everything else put off until 2.7 and everyone who got their stuff into 2.6 responsible for making sure it's stable under wide testing. There are a number of big improvements already in 2.5, and cutting over to a stable release with those features would be nice. And maybe Marcello could be swindled into maintaining it because it's not _that_ different from 2.4...

Good thing this isn't debian...

[Penguinoflight]

Or we'd have to wait 3 days :-)

I dont dislike debian btw.

will firewire ever work?

[Anonymous Coward]

Will firewire ever work? This is getting embarrassing.

Re:will firewire ever work?

[Penguinoflight]

It works now stupid. Maybe you shouldn't embarrass yourself, and actually try it before you say it doesn't work. Dont ask me how to compile your kernel.

Re:will firewire ever work?

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? if i plug in a firewire hard drive, i can mount it?

It doesn't seem to work. Neither does my camera. Or my CDRW.

I guess i'm too stupid for this linux stuff. Back to my mac.. i'm not nearly 1337 enough for this crowd.

Re:will firewire ever work?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. You're not. Try again later.

Re:will firewire ever work?

[jijoel]

The real question, I think, is how to get firewire under Linux out of the EXPERIMENTAL/UNSTABLE category. I know that I, for one, have to re-boot my machine immediately after using my firewire camera. If I don't, the machine will crash immediately when I try to burn the results to my USB CD-burner.

Both of these devices work beautifully, on their own; together, they remind me of my Windows days...

Re:will firewire ever work?

[Anonymous Coward]

it actually works on windows *suprise*

DUH

[HowlinMad]

you should expect the second day soon

Like maybe in 24 hours or so.....

Re:SAUSAGE FEST ALERT

[sinserve]

Gayass Anal Cox, why is wearing the corporate hat again?

Also who is the guy with the long hair (front row, all the way in the right)
I think he is yummy.

Someone who knows better than I might wanna tell us the names of these guys.

Day Two Summary is available

[boa13]

I just saw the link on... Slashdot. Gee, these little side boxes are helpful sometimes. ;)

Re:ya know

[Verizon Guy]

Linus is sooo out of place in those pics. Everyone but him looks stoned or looking to get stoned; meanwhile he seems to be the type that'd be looking for a Starbucks.

What's new in 2.5?

[RelliK]

What I especially want to see:

* ACLs!
* All journalling file systems merged (XFS, JFS, ext3, ReiserFS)
* No more VM stability issues

Anyone know if we can expect that?

On a side note, what are the four FSs above best suited for? I know ReiserFS is really good at working with lots of small files and XFS is excellent at data streaming. Anyone care to add more details?

Re:What's new in 2.5?

[Corby911]

Well, I know ext3 is great for ease of upgrade and backward compatibility with ext2. You can convert the root filesystem to ext3 without remounting read-only. Also, any ext3 filesystem can be mounted as ext2.

IIRC, it's also more "middle of the road" that reiserfs. What I mean by this is that (performance-wise), it supposedly eliminates the extreme cases. So, you get sligly worse handling of many small files, but eliminate some of the possible ultra-slow cases when dealing with large files.

Re:What's new in 2.5?

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.kernelnewbies.org/status/latest.html

Re:What's new in 2.5?

[groomed]

My experiences with XFS have been good. I've seen XFS shut down filesystems upon encountering I/O errors, so at least it tries not to be blithely destroy your data. There is a sense of maturity and the bag of userland tools adds to this.

XFS is quick when working with large files. I do a lot of audio work and the difference with ext2 is very noticeable. Since I haven't used ReiserFS I cannot make a comparison between XFS and it, but XFS is a big improvement over ext2, especially on large drives.

Other XFS features (although I can't say how well they work since I haven't tested them) include ACLs and the possibility to reserve a partition for "realtime" use, i.e. to provide a guaranteed minimum data rate.

The biggest XFS drawback as far as I can see is that it is not a standard part of the kernel. Whenever a new kernel appears you need to wait for a patch against that kernel version and apply it. This can lead to conflicts if you track multiple patches.

For most uses I imagine any of the 4 mentioned filesystems would suffice. Having tried only XFS, I can say that it is a definite improvement over ext2 though.

Re:What's new in 2.5?

[MrResistor]

Mmmmmm..... ACLs......

There is a patch (or group of them) that give Linux ACL support. I don't remember the name of it, something like grsecurity. It was mentioned in the WOLKs interview a few stories before this one.

Re:What's new in 2.5?

[Anonymous Coward]

Various ACL patches have been floating around since the 2.0 era, if not earlier. The question is when is the feature going to be integrated.

Re:What's new in 2.5?

[Anonymous Coward]

> * All journalling file systems merged (XFS, JFS, ext3, ReiserFS)

I'd have to say, "never".

Each of these was designed to solve a different subset of the journalling issues, and ReiserFS is aiming for a superset as well.

Why do away with three good ones just to have a single choice? Is reading up on the four of 'em and selecting the one best suited to your system's needs (..while leaving other users the ability to do the same...) such a HUGE chore?

Re:What's new in 2.5?

[Anonymous Coward]

Run FreeBSD then.

Re:What's new in 2.5?

[BJH]

I think "All journalling file systems merged" was intended to mean "All four file systems integrated into the kernel", not "all four fiel systems merged into one".

Re:What's new in 2.5?

[iabervon]

There's a lot of places where the four of them do the same thing in different ways. One of the ideas was to have the common journalling code be shared between the different filesystems, and to have the various changes that need to be made to the general filesystem and disk code to support the operations needed for journalling be done in one way, rather than with different modifications for the different filesystems.

Obviously, they're not all going to be exactly the same: they have different on-disk formats and different consistency constraints. But there's a lot of stuff which should work with any journalling filesystem with the same code that ought to be straightened out between the different filesystems.

Real Freeze Date...

[Anonymous Coward]

is going to be Dec. 31 2002, Linus is just giving himself a two month cushion to stop all that developer momentum. ;)

Holy Mary Mother of God

[soulsteal]

http://images.dibona.com/pictures/showpic/index.sh tml?Kernel02/convs/6x4_dscn4027.jpg

You see that whole back row? The uber-dorks have matured!

Re:Holy Mary Mother of God

[soupforare]

Sweet! Is that woman ove....

Oh never mind, he just has long hair.
That's alright, I've got my bitch
(HEY JOHN! Frontpage left about a page and a half of space at the bottom of your site! You've sold your Testarossa, get Dreamweaver, man)

resignation

[Anonymous Coward]

as of those group pictures, I officially resign from the technology sector as a whole

Re:what a waste of human effort

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you really rather have them come over and mess up BSD? It's like when you're a kid, and you build a kick ass sandcastle. You don't want younger kids to come over and mess it up, do you?

I say let them build their own sand castle, and knock it down and rebuild it as often as they like.

haha... where are the chix???!!!

[1000101]

Nice group photo! Those guys couldn't even get laid by their own right hand.

pics

[asv108]

Can anyone pick out the virgin in this crowd.

Re:pics

[Anonymous Coward]

trick question - they all are

Re:pics

[ultrabot]

Can anyone pick out the virgin in this crowd [dibona.com].

Why?

Ok, but...

[SHEENmaster]

When will the ability to run a .class file from a command line be part of the kernel? That is what I care about.

Re:Ok, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

> When will the ability to run a .class file from a command line be part of the kernel? That is what I care about.

With any good sense, never.

Userspace is userspace, and shouldn't intrude into the kernel. Why should Java get any special kernel support over any other language? Which JVM would you choose to build into the kernel? How would you tell the system to use a different JVM?

Ugh.

Re:Ok, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

a) most support for execution of arbitrary objects is handled by the shell. a *lot* of things execute "/bin/sh *command*", which forks, calls the shell, then exec's the command based on what the shell determins should happen. this provided support for #!/path/to/interpreter style applications
b) that's already supported. all you need to know is the "magic number" that every .class file will have to make it identifyable, and you can use it.

go read the kernel config, under "General setup->Kernel support for misc binaries"
there's already docco on how to use javarse with that.

ashridah

Re:Ok, but...

[dvdeug]

When will the ability to run a .class file from a command line be part of the kernel?

Since at least version 2.2. See BINFMT_JAVA (obsolete) and BINFMT_MISC when compiling your kernel.

Re:Ok, but...

[spitzak]

Of course the kernel should not do that, but it would help a LOT if there was a standard program (probably called "start" or "open") that did the same thing that double-clicking an icon did. Obviously not kernel stuff, but right now all these solutions are tied to GUI and should not be there as well.

Exactly *how* start works can be left up to different implementations but what is needed is the ability to be able to assumme the program is there and can be called and will do reasonably well so programmers are not tempted to write their own implementations.

Old shells would require the user to type "start " but I would expect newer shells to just take " " directly.

I think this is a vital addition to Linux and should be done.

PC110

[BJH]

For those of you who might be wondering, the small PC that Alan Cox is shown as using in the photo is an IBM PC110.
It's a full x86 PC, not a PocketPC or PDA - and what's really amazing is it was put on the market in 1995.
I own three of the things... in 2000, the last stocks were sold for ridiculously low prices (compared to the price when it was originally sold, anyway), and I happened to have some cash in my pocket. At least they're small enough to not annoy my wife ;)
Anybody wanting to buy one should be able to find one on ebay fairly cheaply.

Re:PC110

[great throwdini]

Anybody wanting to buy [an IBM PC110] should be able to find one on ebay fairly cheaply.

That is, until you took pains to draw attention to the device on /.

Re:PC110

[BJH]

Like I said, I've already got three ;)
It's not like the PC110 is a big secret, anyway - most people these days wouldn't want a PC with a maimum of 20MB RAM and a 33MHz 486SX for a CPU.

Re:PC110

[Anonymous Coward]

Indeed. going with something like the ibm z50 is probably preferable... and can be pretty cheap on ebay.

NetBSD/hpcmips runs well on it and has a page of other hpcmips machines to look into.

Re:PC110

[great throwdini]

Indeed. [G]oing with something like the ibm z50 is probably preferable... and can be pretty cheap on ebay.

Relatively cheap. I picked one up on eBay (complete) for ~$150, including shipping. I meant to run NetBSD on the beast (as you suggest) but I've been too lazy to bother with it (given that booting into NetBSD on the machine means clearing out WinCE apps installed, requiring restoration from backup of those apps later, and I actually get some use out of the WinCE apps at present). The z50 is nice, but the screen doesn't compare well to other similar devices, such as the Aero 8000, and the MIPS processor is a tad underpowered, even for WinCE 2.11 - maybe I'll dump the z50 and commit to my Aero?

who's who?

[amit_kr]

so then, someone care to annotate this image with the names?

http://images.dibona.com/pictures/showpic/index. sh tml?Kernel02/convs/12x10_dscn4027.jpg

Re:what a waste of human effort

[Anonymous Coward]

Why exactly isn't that post "-1, Troll"?

debian violating social contract

[matusa]

I quote the second day of the summary (which is now also up:

In the last part of the talk, Bdale whipped out his Debian T-shirt and raised the question: does Debian violate its Social Contract by shipping the Linux kernel? The issue, of course, is the inclusion of proprietary firmware in a number of device drivers. Kernel developers, as a whole, seem unconcerned about proprietary firmware...

Ok, I'm a debian user/admin, I user it on all my machines, but this is just plain retarted. The kernel of your O.S. distribution violates your policies? Change your policies then.. or take the rod out of your ass.

it's funny how whenever you start to vehemently say 'for the people,' under weird beauracracy it can easily turn into 'we know what the people need better then they do' *sigh*

Re:debian violating social contract

[Anonymous Coward]

Any decade now they'll get the Hurd kernel done, and then Debian can return to a Higher Plane Of Existence. Meanwhile, time to let the grubby kernel do its grubby work of allowing EVERYTHING else to function.

Re:what a waste of human effort

[Anonymous Coward]

Please, please, just stop. BSD is not worth investing any more time in. It's just an OS for assholes who like to talk down to other people. We should be investing time improving Linux, not BSD. BSD has been a colossal waste of effort and lacks the huge momentum and non-asshole communities that Linux has.

Re: menuconfig

[fferreres]

I'd have a better alternative. Why not make the vendor configure the drivers for your hardware and have the kernel people extend the menuconfig so that you can load a "drivers config set" without altering all other options that you chose?

Then, they hardware vendor could provide an util to autodetec what kernel version you are using and tada. You could even make a "Wizard" (hehe) that you mama could use.

That should take care. Of course, the unsolvable problem is not this one, but the cases where some companies don't want to provide the sources. It's not Linux fault.

I hope so...

[bugg]

Halloween. I've posted a very small gallery of the group pictures from the summit on my site.

For a second there, I was scared when I saw those pictures. Then I realized they were Halloween costumes.

They are Halloween costumes, right?

kernel developers to Debian: put up or shut up

[fw3]

my own favorite quotes from the discussion: - audio (approximately)

(Linus speaking): moving this (binary drivers with which Stallman / deb take issue) into user space is a sign of mental disorder .... we are clear from a copyright standpoint ... linux has intentionally taken a non-rabid standpoint ... as I've shown with my use of bitkeeper I don't care about black and white people.

[issues about firmware && binary modules]

(Alan Cox?) The kernel developers do not have energy to sit down and determine a clear set of rules ... Debian has an endless supply of people who have nothing better to do than study legal issues....

[Linus points out that actual GPL violating files get addressed in ca 24 hr timeframe]

The conclusion was to send a message back to the Debian users to "put up or shut up"

I'm sure RMS will have a press release out later this week.

Re:kernel developers to Debian: put up or shut up

[KjetilK]

Well, freedom is still Linux number one selling point. Tru64 is better on number crunching and Solaris is still better for most server applications, and windoze is better on the desktop. If they don't realize this, I think they will become irrelevant.

Beautiful People! Beautiful People!

[puto]

WOW! As a long time computer nerd professiionally and personally I have realized one thing. AFTER LOOKING AT THOSE GUYS IN THE PICTURE I AM ONE OF THE BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE! And WTF? there is only girl there? Jeez... Even ROB married a cutie. Puto

ummm

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it just me or does Alan Cox look like he just got released from the county jail after doing 18 months for driving drunk on his harley.

ogg vs. mp3 file size

[ph1nn]

Whats the deal with the ogg file sizes being like 50%+ bigger than the mp3 sizes? I thought ogg was better compression? Even if its using better quality, seems like a waste... oh well, ill listen to the mp3s

Re:ogg vs. mp3 file size

[Anonymous Coward]

Ogg's encoder isn't tuned for low-bite rates yet. So, if you want to make a file for just spoken word, Ogg Vorbis won't do very well, yet.

does anyone else?

[Anonymous Coward]

does anyone else here look at pictures like the ones on dibona's site there and have the correct gut response of "what a bunch of LOSERS?"

the kernel developers can't even put together a normal outfit, let alone a serious threat to microsoft.

if you are so far divorced from the real world and actual users, how can you hope to produce something useful for them? hello! earth calling kernel weirdos!

holy bejesus. judging by their outward appearance, you'd think these guys still name their variables "foo" and "bar" and their structs "dentry" and "qstr". oh wait... they do. they probably think that the c preprocessor is a great thing. sure! lots of underscores too, I bet.

pee yew.

somebody please clarify!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought *BSD was dead?

Linux - lack of diversity?

[Anonymous Coward]

The group picture shows primarily whites with some Asians and Indians. Were there no people of African origin involved with this summit?

Re:Linux - lack of diversity?

[damas]

Usually Africans do not like being associated with such a sorry bunch of ugly people ;)

Re:Linux - lack of diversity?

[Nater]

See, the problem with making a statement like that is that now we all know that Race makes a big difference to you. Those of us who have actually reached a higher plane of existence and learned to ignore peoples' race wouldn't even notice that there were Asians and Indians, let alone that there weren't any Africans

Re:Linux - lack of diversity?

[Anonymous Coward]

Race does matter. The makeup of those at the summit does not reflect the wonderful variety of the diverse world in which it is used. Mr. Torvalds and others in a position of power need to pursue a strategy to become more inclusive, encouraging those of African ancestry (and Latinos) to become part of the core team of Linux developers. A program of active recruitment would be one way to achieve this goal.

Re:Linux - lack of diversity?

[Nater]

Hello. You seem to have missed the point. You're still looking at people's skin color and the shape of their face. Stop it, you're embarassing yourself.

If there are any people in this world who aren't contributing to Free software due to the dearth of developers of the same race contributing to Free software, then they are afflicted with the same problem as you, that is, the inability to ignore race.

There are two reasons why race is still an issue. 1) There are still some overt racists, and 2) there are people like you who are covertly racist. We're all just people, dude. Get the fuck over it.

bloated ogg encoding

[SaberTaylor]

% du -h KSMP3s/
147M KSMP3s
% du -h KSOggs/
274M KSOggs

Looks like a case of using "oggenc --bitrate n" instead of the better style "oggenc --quality n". I've found that quality 0 is fine for lectures and would probably save some filespace/bandwidth.

retraction ~ Re:bloated ogg encoding

[SaberTaylor]

jumped my guns. looking at my quality 0 oggs of voice, they average 64 Kbps. (The kernel summit mp3 files are 32 Kbps.)

Re:retraction ~ Re:bloated ogg encoding

[chrisd]

The oggs are on average twice as long as what I consider a similar quality of mp3. They also took me twice as long to encocde.

chrisd

Will we be forced to reboot?

[danlaba]

Rusty said about modules unitialization:

The third approach is simpler: simply deprecate module removal. It would remain as an optional feature (it is, after all, most useful for debugging kernel code), but, by default, module loading would be forever. In the end, says Rusty, kernel modules do not take that much space and memory is cheap; module removal may be an optimization that we no longer need. There are some residual issues, ... , but as a whole this option is easy and makes a lot of code go away. There seemed to be a lot of sympathy for this approach in the room."

Noooooo! Nooooooooo! Oh noooo!
This is why I have to reboot WinDOS, because they don't unitialize stuff, you have to reboot in order for new config to become active. They are not able to uninitialize actual config, initialize new config (remember, you had to reboot when you changed IP!!!)

It's easier, but.... whenever we update a kernel module we'll have to reboot.

Please don;t get rid of usefull code.

Thanks

Re:Will we be forced to reboot?

[Sircus]

Since as a general rule, you only get a new module when you get a new kernel (and you have to reboot anyway for a new kernel), this isn't that huge a problem.

Re:Will we be forced to reboot?

[tarsi210]

I, for one, am incredibly worried about this. I often switch ISA NICs on the fly, unplugging them while the machine is hot. Unloading modules is very handy. Or how about those devices I plug in for a bit and then unplug? I like to remove the modules to clean up memory after using them (Zip drives and the like). When my soundcard crashes I have to rmmod and modprobe it back in to clear it out.

Please don't take away my module unloading. Rusty, I don't give a fark how kernel 1337 joo are, to say "memory is cheap" and be a kernel hacker makes you sound like a complete, contradictory moron.

Re:Will we be forced to reboot?

[brunes69]

This is a total misnomer. What about 3rd party kernel modules? VMWare? NVIdia? And not only proprietary either.. what about updated bttv or lm sensors? etc etc. I know of at least 6 3rd party modules I have on my system.

Re:Will we be forced to reboot?

[Sircus]

What about them? For a start, NVidia's decision to release their drivers only as binary certainly shouldn't affect the design of the kernel. But to carry on, how often do you actually update lm_sensors? I run it too, but since it reports the values for all sensors installed on my system, I can't really imagine a reason why I'd want to upgrade it.

Yes there is...

[efagerho]

It's called sysctl.

What about bugs + features + seek and install

[oliverthered]

If the kernel had a good modukle system (which i believe 2.6 is going to have) then modules are also good for.

Installing an updated driver with less bugs, security holes.

Installing an updated driver with more features (e.g. they make NTFS WR+ not just R)

You can get binaries of modules(this is called a comprimise!)

And bet of all the if you plug in a USB device etc.. and you don't have a driver, a daemon could go an find it on the net and download/install it for you!

Nope

[damas]

Bsd code belongs to NOBODY (see Darwin). Linux code belongs to us. All hail the GPL :)

Hell, they do

[damas]

Sweetie, they do. Really. I'm coding windoze apps for my employer on Linux. Debian, to be precise. And listening to music. And the system is stable. Which is more than I can expect of Windows.

Re:what a waste of human effort

[Anonymous Coward]

It's just a redo of what's already in BSD, except done worse.

Yeah, like that SMP and NUMA stuff. Man, BSD is so much better than Linux there!

Where are the girls ?

[BESTouff]

I see only males on the group photos ... is the penguin machist or what ?

Kernel?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about next time you specify that it is the *linux* kernel, there is more than one kernel, you know.

Slashdot - now in widescreen!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

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-pwpbot

I would like to see bsd style networking

[Billly Gates]

If any of you tried ip-chains or played around with NAT both under Linux then you know what I am talking about. Routing sucks bigtime compared to other unixes. I would like to setup NAT for 2 way address translation and a more readable scripts like ipf under *bsd but linux doesn't support it. In Windows2k you only click "enable internet connection sharing". Anyway I am not a hacker so I am only requesting it and would be nice to have. Also the new feature being discussed for 2.5x that is having outdated modules remain loaded in memory is a bad idea. This would make rebooting necessary when the system is full of garbage like WindowsNT. I also hope they fix the VM. Even the newer one is exhibiting some problems from what I heard. Especially on non intel platforms like the alpha.

Re:I would like to see bsd style networking

[Zaffle]

if any of you tried ip-chains or played around with NAT both under Linux then you know what I am talking about. Routing sucks bigtime compared to other unixes. I would like to setup NAT for 2 way address translation and a more readable scripts like ipf under *bsd but linux doesn't support it.

Its called iptables. Its in 2.4. Its good, and its very much comparable to *BSD style routing. iptables seems to be a pretty good solution. (Hey, third time's a charm. ipfw, ipchains, iptables, yey!).

As for the readable scripts. I tend to setup a script which just runs iptables how I want it. I use comments to state what I'm doing. Its very readable, and maintainable. If I want to see why a certain packet isn't going through, I open the script and look at what the comments say.

Re: BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE? Stupid People!

[Anonymous Coward]

Whats wrong with you poeple you sound like those bullies in the school play-grownd "ahahaaa he got long hair he looks like a girl" (or something). So dumb and ignorant!

Here on slashdot most of the stories are about linux and technologies ect.. and your more interessted in poeple with long hair that what they do, since its for your (maybe no due to your attitude *cough*XP?**). Just seriously are you wanting to mesure your dick and put the results online too?

Just remmeber that your ignorant befor posting next time, maybe think once.

I think I, you, or both missed Rusty's point

[iamcadaver]

He is absolutely NOT calling for module genocide. He is stating that the way modules load, and especially UNLOAD, is wildy inconsitent.

He is asking for module loading to be a one-way proposition, insmod without rmmod. At least, and I'm sure Linus is thinking this too, until it bugs someone enough to implement one of the other two options Rusty gave.

tmtowtdi

[fw3]

The perl motto (there's more than one way to do it) applies to computing generally, and to the idea of what's the 'selling point'.

As it happens I have a couple of posts today about the what goes on in the OS market, so I'll just link Exchange on nt 3.1? & lessons for OSS and (long) Is Linux Dead. And yes, the market will hand irrelevancy to systems which don't adapt. If GPL does not adapt it will follow the same path, and by my read it has:

Beyond all that, free is not just GPL. FSF used to distribute X11 from the X-Consortium at ~$150 / tape Sometime later RMS decided the X11 license was 'bad'. Today, (perhaps with Debian/Hurd as his ace in the hole?) RMS is trying to push Linux to a strict (activist?) interpretation of GPL.

When I look a the history I think Stallman for all his principles exhibits pragmatism in his actions which is so often attributed to Linus. Linus made it clear long ago that he was not going to give FSF/Deb the blank cheque that many GPL developers do licensing under "gpl-current or whatever later version"

I daresay Linus drew a line in the sand saying "2.0 and no later version of GPL", and I bet if he hadn't we'd be looking at GPL-V3 today.

To be clear I'm not trying to knock either approach. I happen to have a bit more sympathy for Linus's views but that doesn't invalidate the strengths and accrued benefits of other approaches.