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Continuing an IT Career Without a Degree?
skaffen42 asks: "Recently there have been a lot of employment related "ask slashdot" posts. There have been questions about hot technologies, the international job market, certification, college and even landing a regular job! I find myself in a situation that have not been covered these posts. I dropped out of college after a year and went to work as a programmer. Now, ten years later, I am a senior systems engineer at a medium sized software company. I have challenging work, a decent salary and good prospects for advancement. But we all know that in this economy even a good job like this can disappear without warning. Unfortunately I don't have a degree. Which brings me to my question: a couple of years ago anybody could get a job if they could spell "C" and someone like me with nearly a decade of experience could usually pick and choose between job opportunities. Those days are (unfortunately) long gone. What I want to know is how much my lack of a degree will count against me in the present job market? And what can I do to make my lack of a degree less of a liability? What can I do so that I can also have these kind of problems?"
1) Get a degree (obvious). Night school or whatever.
2) Never leave your current job (also obvious, but not really under your control)
3) Network. A lot. Without a degree, in this job market, your only chances for landing another job are to a) already know the person, have an 'in', or b) impress the hell out of the interviewer. b) is possible in smaller companies, but if the interview's being conducted by HR, you can just forget it. So that leaves a); gets lots of people who know you, and are willing to hire you if you get canned.
If you're working with Microsoft Products, consider an MCSE. Horrible thought, I know, but these days business considers a practical 'real-world' certificate to be worth more than yet another cookie-cutter academic qualification. Especially considering the quality, or lack thereof, of programmers taking traditional academic routes.
I believe Red Hat offer a similar certification scheme for Linux as well. Choose what's best for you and ask your employer to help finance your studies.
"Why did they cancel my favorite Sci-Fi show? I downloaded ALL the episodes!"
I didn't even finish collage in the UK (one level before degree).
.contingancy.plan.
I've stated to get a degree in other areas (chemistry and mathematics) at night school,
[doing a degree after programming for such a long time seems so boring].
Here's my
1:/ Get to a decent position with very transferable skills, (I'm looking in the design consultancy area).
2:/ Get some level of 'fame' from an open-source project ( I'm currently writing an X-platform Access database driver for open office). This give's you a CV for life
3:/ Invest well while I can, pay off the mortgage quickly, get some savings, so that if the shit hits the fan you can absorbed the possible pay cut.
My main worry is that I can't even read my own handwriting!!!!.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
I feel that with THAT much experience under your belt already, you really should not be all that concerned. However, to prevent that resume from being immediately tossed aside, there are some things you should do. You mentioned you are senior system engineer (whatever that is). This leads me to believe to some extent that you are a project manager. Get a certification in project management. Similarly, get certs in whatever you do most. Yeah, theyre not worth much, but an employer is going to be really shady about considering you unless you have completed at least some sort of benchmark that says you can do something. They are also alot cheaper than a degree, and if you pursue them in your areas of expertise, they shouldnt be that hard either. If you have the time, dedication, and money, you really can not beat a real, actual degree. If that is not possible, you may wish to pursue an "advanced degree certificate" that many schools are now offering as night programs. they are generally about a year long, and are used by professionals who have a degree in one area, but are looking to get proficiency in another. The most common route is a techie getting a business certificate, but second to that from what I have seen, is Computer certificate. I dont know where you are located, but good examples can be found here at hofstra's site http://www.hofstra.edu/Admissions/adm_gradprograms .cfm
-kevin
was in a situation of hating his job, not having a degree, and having 7 or so years of professional experience. he was not the type of person to work somewhere for a few months and then jump ship; his 7 years was for 3 companies. he just got a new job, with nearly a 10% raise, and into a very interesting field for him.
to me, it was a matter of patience. it was a progression from worse to best, step by step. he was realistic, and understood the job market and used it to his advantage.
if you are good, and patient, things should work out great. if not, take a long hard look at staying where you are.
Get a degree.
And do me a favor. When the young'uns come up to you and ask your opinion on whether they need to get a degree, SAY YES.
and I'm doing a degree. I recently applied for a job and didn't even get called for an interview, solely because the ad stated "Degree" and my CV didn't.
I live in Ireland, so I am doing a Bachelor of Science in Information Texhnology by Distance Education through Oscail (it's Irish for Open). 8 saturdays per year per module for tutorials. Seems pretty good, the degree comes from Dublin City University. Work load is quite heavy at times, and the organisation sometimes sucks (missed my first tutorials cause they lost my application this year) but all in all worthwhile.
You say you have 10 years experience, which in this industry counts for a lot. However, if it comes down to someone with 5 years employment experience and a degree, vs. you with the 10 years, you might have competition.
The two most important things that college teaches is problem solving and that you'll be able to complete a project.
What I want to know is how much my lack of a degree will count against me in the present job market?
As somebody who has the same problem, my advice is to focus your job-search efforts on smaller companies. Big ones (hospitals, banks, etc) tend to have strict human resource policies that require all salaried staff to hold a college degree. Even when I looked briefly during the dot-com craze, I was offered a couple of part-time positions at big companies (was looking to augment my full-time job) - right up until they tried to run my paperwork through their HR department.
Small companies tend to focus more on what you've produced, and don't mind your lack of degree as much. They use it as a form of rationalization for why you should be paid less, but at least you still get a job.
Get active in your local users' groups, too. If your peers in the same programming field see you as a helpful authority, then they'll be more inclined to recommend you to their bosses.
What's your damage, Heather?
In the present market, and definitely in my region, your situation is a very dangerous one. Presently, the few companies that are hiring in the region are taking full advantage of the market downturn and its resulting glut of skilled professionals. These few and far between companies are demanding degrees, usually advanced degrees and offering pathetic salaries in return.
Here's one: Major insurance company seeks mid-level programmer. Requires Master's degree in Computer Science or related field and minimum 10 years experience developing in C/C++ and Java. $65,000US + Benefits.
MCSE's beware!!!!
My last job change, c 9 months ago, I got 3 job interviews by having 'Perl Hacker' as the job discription of the job I'd just left.
This was not made up, this was what that Co. called my job.
It was the word 'Hacker' that got my foot through the interviewers door.
Of cause I don't know how many interviews I lost.
PS I don't have a Degree either.
Wouldn't it be nice if schools got all the money they wanted and the army had to hold jumble sales for guns
I just got a job last monday after four long months of searching. Same situation as last time, my employer had me over a barrel, but he chose not to screw me. I actually got a decent salary, and the job was based on experience & certifications. What got me in the door? Sheer determination. 2 years of it. I interviewed with this company before, and kept my eye on it. I've wanted to work here for quite some time, and i plan to stay for a long time. But i do plan to have one thing before i leave:
At least an associates degree.
I have a long way to go. at least 3 years worth of work. The luck i encountered in getting this job was quite amazing. I could have been looking for ages more and never found a job. Sysadmins are a dime a dozen, and, unfortunately, there are a lot of talentless hacks out there taking the jobs from the more qualified and skilled, based only on the fact that they'll work for $15,000 less.
What hurt me the most in the job search is some of these talentless hacks (I knew some of them, so im not just making this up) had degrees.. but absolutely no skill. IMHO, you need all the qualifications to be [easily] successful in todays job market - Certifications, Formal Education, and Experience. Not to say you can't get far just by trying reaaaaly hard...
Keep in mind all you unemployed people.. once you find a job, its back to 12 hour days, weekend work, and after-hours studying!
(Whats up with that anyway? Why is it in the computer industry people expect the standard work day to be 10-12 hours?)
Step 1: Get Job!!
Step 2:.....
Step 3: Big Profits!!!
Seriously, I never understood why a degree mattered, except for the first job or two you have, as a stand in for experience.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
Our new CIO definitely has a bias towards degrees. He's a bit old school, admittedly, but he's likely typical of CIOs in modern, mid-size and large-size corporate America.
Specifically, we had quite a time with a new and highly-qualified candidate for an admin position. He does not have a degree, but did have the inside track of being picked by our Systems Manager (long-time relationship). He was hired, though our CIO made a point of saying "you know, without a degree, you really limit your horizons."
So, those of us considering moving up through the ranks are considering degrees (at least, those of us that don't have them). We do have a goodly number of people who do have degrees, so we're even more in the minority.
And, I can attest to having a really hard time landing a job during the last search. I do think a big part of it was my lack of a degree.
As always, your mileage may vary.
Amateurs discuss tactics. Professionals discuss logistics.
Development projects are moving out of the country more and more, to India, China, anywhere that salaries can be paid much lower than here. Programmers don't have to be geniuses, but companies like to see degrees. Overseas, not going to or dropping out of college is almost unheard of. There's a glut of programmers that have Bachelor's or Master's level degrees that are willing to work for 1/4 to 1/8 of what you are
I've been working full time since 1996, starting as a web programmer, all the way up to my current position as a distributed systems architect. Even still, I've never felt safe without my degree, so I've kept plodding on. I'll finish it this fall after 7.5 years, and it will be worth all the time and effort. Finally, I will have a good answer for that favorite interview question "so have you gotten your degree yet?" Put in the effort and finish the degree, whatever it takes. Thousands (or perhaps millions) of foreign programmers already have done so.
Unfortunatly in the software industry there are two definitions of Hacker.
1:/ The R+D definition as in kernel hacker
2:/ And the I'm not an enginer I'm a hacker definition.
Most companies I've been with take hacker to mean 2nd form, (R+D people usually fall into the 2nd definition too).
Frankly, your point doesn't seem very well thought out. Here's how I look at it: somebody with the determination to learn how the stuff works without sitting in class, i.e. doing it on their own, is showing a lot of motivation that many students can't muster without sitting in a class having a professor help them along. I'm not saying that those folks are lame, that is the way the vast majority of very smart computer geeks (and geeks of other varieties ;) get their education. But it does speak to someone's capacity for initiative and working independently.
Point two is this: I've worked with many people in the field who had degrees in CS who seemed to know as much as I did or less(!) about some things, just as a result of experience. The experience that I gained working in the job put me at essentially the same level as those folks when it came to real-world situations. They don't hand you a lot of ugly legacy code in school and expect you to sort through it, it seems. They don't ask you to figure out how to migrate a web site set up for Apache to Netscape Enterprise (don't ask). Granted, I've read a lot. But the books I read were for the most part books I saw on other people's desks being read too, whether they had a degree or not. Maybe the point is that they can't possibly teach you everything in school, so you aren't _necessarily_ going to have an immediate advantage over someone because of that degree.
Point three? Less debt. Yay. Right now I'm contemplating going back to school, but part of me is thinking "why bother, why get in debt like that?" I mean, maybe I will, because doing research level work in school to get a masters or greater I think is a different thing than undergrad CS. But I've had three different jobs in the three years I've been a computer geek and I've never had to explain that I don't have a CS degree.
Again, I want to stress the point that I don't think that _by_default_ you are going to be in the same boat as someone with a degree, but it's not such a bad thing not to have one and can work in your favor in some ways.
What I want to know is how much my lack of a degree will count against me in the present job market? And what can I do to make my lack of a degree less of a liability?
I suggest this will depend on the culture/people of the prospectve employer. As a CS Graduate who is involved with recruitment I usually expect an IT related degree for technical staff, particularly for more senior positions. In my experience graduates have more breadth, and on average better skills, however I've come across a few extremely talented indivuals without [CS|IT|IS] ]degrees that seriously impress.
If they hold degrees themselves or consider themselves Software Engineers it may well be a problem. If a strong hacker|hero culture exists, they can be exactly the opposite. A degree can be a liability, indeed in one Interview I had, an apparent none graduate said, and I paraphrase, 'a CS degree was useless, programming is not about thinging it's about doing' and managed to keep a strait face.
First off, if you can pull it off, get the degree. I haven't worked any job after school that did not list a Bachelor's degree in something as a minimum requirement. Also, a formal program will fill in a lot of the holes that a self-directed education can leave. I think that a degree program tends to complement experience well for a broad and versatile knowledge of the field.
But, it seems from the fact that you're even asking that getting the degree may not be an option. In this case, the strategies for staying competitive are mostly the same as the one that the degreed folk of the world use. You just start out with more to make up for.
Certifications are probably a good idea, although I find them distasteful. When screening resumes, an employer likes to see some quantifiable metrics of knowledge, in addition to experience and signs of good character.
It might be good for you to focus your qualifications on sectors of the field where degrees have been traditionally optional. Networking has always seemed this way to me. Cisco certification might be a very decent safety net. If you want real security in this market, I hear Oracle certification is sort of a magic bullet.
As for staying in software with no degree, I know of no fool proof strategies. Just stay current, be lucky, and nail every interrview you get.
Just remember that the key to a certification is to mindlessly parrot what the certifying body is saying on the test, NOT saying what you know is true.
Getting a certification in a field you know something about can be extra challenging, as there's no law saying the certifiers have to be particularly competent in the field they are 'certifying'; I'd be particularly nervous about a 'project management' certification, as experience could be really detrimental to getting certified...
This is not meant to be a flame, but when I see writing like this I immediately conclude that the author cannot be bothered to make even a basic attempt at getting things right. Your spelling, punctuation, and subject-object agreement are just atrocious. The inference that many people draw is that you would be equally careless with your other efforts, such as your job. If you came to me looking for work, I would Google for your name and email and possibly uncover your above post. After seeing it, I would not even consider having you on my team for the above reasons.
The people who we called were the ones with clear resumes that explained what they personally did. (Most of them explained in great detail what their projects were all about, which we didn't care about at all.)
So if your resume hilights your experience well and minimizes your lack of education, you might be okay, at least with companies that don't have strict degree requirements.
I suspect that recruitment adverts like the one mentioned are written by the HR department and/or the agency, with minimal involvement from the department where the employee would be working. This may be a clue that you should avoid applying for the position - unless of course you've found that you enjoy lying to clueless PHBs, and that you can earn more money that way than by writing code ;-)
Just another wannabe fantasy novelist...
Lots of skilled folks, w/o degrees have gone that route, and worked for those very same companies.
It has its own set of problems, but it works for some.
Experience, and self initiative is the answer, take the manuals home and read them, learn as much as you can along the way.
- Small companies usually have smaller teams. Larger companies usually have larger teams.
- In small teams, each team member has a broad role, but certain skills. There is a need for an exact match of personality and skills.
- In large teams, each team member has specific tasks. The team works collectively, and there's really nothing specific a company will really need.
So you see, in a large team, they're just looking for general ability. Someone with a degree will probably be reasonably intelligent, at and least know something. If you get a big enough pool of people, all of them filtered by degree, you will probably be able to finish most projects.In a small team, the company needs self-starters. The skills are special, and indeed a small team cannot afford to filter by something as generic as a degree: they're looking for specific skills.
Also, people in small teams work harder, but generally have more fullfilling tasks. Would you rather spend 10 hard-core hours writing a variety of tasks or spend 4 hours a day doing the same thing every day?
Whether you have a degree or not, I'd go for the small team. And a good team leader is not dumb enough to look at a degree. A department manager is too busy to care about specific skills. As a final note, in a small company, you'll have a good list of accomplishments to show another small team. A big company will respect that you worked for other big companies. Choose now, because it's hard to change cultures. I suggest you go for a small company. You have a better chance of landing a job, and the jobs are better.
-- Ken Kinder ken@_nospam_kenkinder.com http://kenkinder.com/
This cycle was turned on its head during the past 100 years. Through unions, blue collar wages have gone up, and through scholarships, more people enter the white collar job market. Now, during the past few decades, the Internet has allowed people to self-educate. People who are self-educated are generally more motivated, more confident, and less ignorant. Although this change is slow, and with the economic backlash, many companies have reverted to the old way, credentialism will slowly die. High school kids cannot read their own deplomas, community college students beat Harvard students on game shows.
You're just bitter because you're dupped into the old wrong ways of thinking. Well, what do you call a college drop out in ten years? Boss.
-- Ken Kinder ken@_nospam_kenkinder.com http://kenkinder.com/
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Thanks, HAND.
Er ... I think he meant "meaningless" in the same sense that, say, silicone breasts are meaningless (even though they may help you get a job in certain places).
Companies prefer degreed individuals for good reason. If you can make it through four years of college, it shows you have good work ethics.
Given that the original subject of this discussion had ~10 years work experience, and the second poster worked well enough to be promoted to "engineer", I don't think work ethics are in question here. Which just proves that the degree is pretty meaningless after all.
sic [My main worry is that I can't even read my own handwriting!!!!.]
I also 'think' backwards so to speak and write in a why fashion not a how or what.
This is also the main reason I'm good at what I do, systems, component design and integration. I'm crap at writing(I normally get someone else to put in all the bullshit).. and make sure that everyone knows.
It also provides a reasonable filter for employers, It they won't an MCP or perfect grammar, then just maybe I don't want to work for someone like that.
As someone just beginning in your path, I would say congratulations! Having 10 years of real experience will do a lot for your job prospects.
Medium sized companies are probably your best bet though. If they are too small, you need to have a great personality, because they are probably not knowledgable enough to appreciate the effect of your experience. On the other hand, if they are too large, they will be more interested in a degree than actually examining the depth and breadth of your knowledge.
But where you are, going back for a serious degree is something you should only do if you want to learn something, not just to prove yourself.
This is interesting as i'm in the same situation, I was a contractor and have just decided to close my company. I have no degree, in fact I have no job.
I last worked about 12 months ago, it's tough at the moment, there is work going, but you have to be flexible. I guess i'm not as I want to work in Europe and there's little going with lots of major competition.
A degree really depends upon what location or country your in. The USA is more anal over a degree, Asia is too.
What a degree does do, is make it easier when applying blind for a job to the clowns, sorry I mean Human Resources, they can use this as an indication of your technical skill.
Again this is crap as everyone knows that after a couple of years in the frantic workplace, you've more than got the equivalent.
There are also baselines of knowledge that a degree requires you to know, and if IT is your hobby as well as your career, then you'll probably be clued up on this.
Don't be fooled with all the talk about needing a degree. This may only set you back, and could confuse you mid way though your career. A company will (almost) always hire a person with 10 years of experience over a newbie grad. And with 10 years, a degree will be, most likely, looked over.
It sounds as though you feel your skills are above average and in a field which is transferable. So, with that assumed, you might be having some concerns about not being able to sale yourself in the current market. This is what, if anything, you should focus on. My suggestion is to network. Look for opportunities to practice communication, etc. Open as many doors as you can.
My 2 cents.
If you chart an employer's intelligence to their valuation of a degree, there's a definite bell curve. Average to moderately bright people value degrees the most (maybe because it was hard for them to get?). The not-so-smart tend to have a sour grapes attitude ("college isn't worth it, and I'm not just saying that because I couldn't get in / through it"). Very smart people are more than willing to hire non-degreed people. Their clubs are based on brains, not membership cards.
Best Windows Freeware
Why work for somebody else if you don't have to? If you have the skills, cut out the middleman. Maybe find some of your brightest friends/colleagues and pursue the entrepreneurial dream. Or maybe just look around at people's needs and start a small, friendly, ethical business to meet them. There's an old saying that goes something like "help people and the money will follow." And you'll never have to sit through another interview either. (-:
--
Q.) What do you call a college dropout in 5 years?
A.) Boss
I have to review tech resumes all the time. Automatic filters: years of experience and college degree. I will look at people w/out a degree but with exerpience, but there are some massive hurdles there:
1: The process of getting a 4-year degree gives an employer some level of comfort, since it is likely that the candidate had substantial writing, communication, and intellectual experience. I don't give a rip if the degree is in philosophy or physics (or even CS).
2: A candidate w/out a college degree might be OK, but might not. The experience quoted is viewed with biased eyes -- "what kind of work would a company give someone without a college degree?".
If I were you I would immediately start working on getting a bachelors degree - BA, BS, whatever, in _anything_. Experience is great, but unless your're some kind of celebrity (e.g.: well-known linux programmer), or have _great_ networking, you're just going to miss out on a _lot_ of potential interviews, not to mention jobs. Pay differential once you change jobs will be substantial as well.
"But actually trying to use m4 as a general-purpose langage would be deeply perverse" --ESR
A degree has more relevance than those certifications whose major purpose is to test how much marketing information you can learn. The MS certs teach very little in the way of theory and theory is what allows you to adapt to changing technology.