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Volvo's "Safety Car" Runs Windows 98
An anonymous submitter writes "MSNBC is carrying a report on Volvo's new "Safety Car." It sounds pretty cool, too, until you get to the part that mentions it runs Windows 98 as its operating system. Yikes! Be sure to reboot your car frequently to avoid crashes."
No references to "buggy drivers".
dys-
Just posting early to pre-empt the inevitable flood of said jokes...
Friends don't let friends use multiple inheritance.
Ingenious!If it doesn't go... you can't get hurt!
Gotta give some credit to those volvo engineers
So close and yet so far from the world's perfect ID number
Let's just hope it's cosmetic. "Windows 98" and "drive-by-wire" in the same sentence... now THAT'S scary.
Aw, fuck it. Let's go bowling. - The Big Lebowski
I'd bet money that the journalist flubbed this one, or its some elaborate trolling with MSNBC realizing that a 'safe' car running Win98 would get an instant Slashdotting.
BMWs iDrive System on the BMW745i is the real deal.
iDrive consists of a computer that controls 270 functions (including basic climate and stereo settings), a center-mounted LCD screen and a console-mounted rotary pushbutton knob that works as the system's "mouse." It's an amazingly powerful system that BMW sees taking over almost all vehicle functions.
More info here.
It has come to my attention that slashdot has posted a story with the keywords "windows 98", "volvo", and "safety".
Your "joke" was the first with a funny moderation on it that i saw. I would like to take the opportunity to address the rest of the slashbots and say "all the rest of the windows 98 BSOD jokes are going to suck".
They are not original, and they aren't funny anymore. You are flogging a dead horse. Slashbots are one trick ponies.
I'd like to see linux circa 1998 try and power a car.
Thank You
I can see it now:
"Take the number of vehicles in the field, (A), multiply it by the probable rate of failure, (B), then multiply the result by the average out-of-court settlement, (C). A times B times C equals x. If X is less than the cost of bringing in real programmers to fix our code, we don't release a service pack."
When you do it every 10 minutes.
Shall I keep going? :-)
Karma whorin' since 1999
Would this have even made it onto /. if the car didn't run Windows 98?? If you want to actually learn something then here is the official Volvo site for the car and here are a bunch of other references you can look at. None make mention of Windows 98.
Wouldn't be quite so funny if it was a kit car that comes in 5,000 pieces that runs linux, now would it? :P
Who says they'd need to tweak the OS? I would think they could run a standard kernel and do their own application on top of it without that application being public. Or am I missing something, like anything that runs ON linux must be open source too. I'm not sure, I haven't actually read the license stuff all the way through.
This is the article I saw earlier.
No matter how bad a crash you have in this car, all you have to do is press "RESET" and a couple of minutes later you're back on the road.
When you hop in, does the car say "Where do you want to go today?"
Oh great, you're saying MS now has patents on oxymorons. When will it end!
It is my understanding that they only have to release the source code if they're planning on distributing their work.
--
"Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos." - Homer Simpson [1F10]
A few years back, Linux Journal ran a story about a car, I believe in Italy, that was using Linux. I believe Linux did the steering as well.
"Would it kill you to put down the toilet seat?" -- Maya Angelou
Russian spacecraft run linux on easy bake ovens.
Ok, I made that up.
--
pants ahoy
Not to those inside it, but to those outside. The morons who buy Volvoes buy it for the "safety" that's a trade-mark of the car, so they drive like assholes, thinking that if they're in accidents, they'll be okay.
Perhaps if seats belts were outlawed (for the driver), you'd see people driving carefully, because in case of accident, they'd know they'd get turned into marmalade.
It would be much better suited to embedded development.
/real/ embedded OS.
OTOH, since it's a concept car and meant for the market, they may have just kludged something together with commodity PC parts for one or more of those 5 computers on that car, and it may have just been easier to have it running Win98, since it is only a concept car, so they don't need to worry as much about using a
I can see it now. "Officer, It's not my fault. Microsoft sold me an unsafe product. If it were safe, my car wouldn't have stalled in the middle of the inteterstate."
In all seriousness though, as the promotion of WIndows for Embedded Devices continues, these sorts of safety issues will need to be evaluated vary carefully. The software industry - the only industry in which selling defective products has almost no consequences - will have to take greater responsibility for bugs and instabilities in their products. As the stakes go up to the point where their products are directly responsible for human lives, a new approach to security and reliability will be needed. Among other things, Microsoft will need to alter it's position oposing full disclosure of security vulterabilities.
Cars running Windows are one thing but regardless of what steps are taken, it'll be many years before I'll be comfortable being attached to a heart bypass machine running MS Windows for Embedded Devices.
--CTH
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
No matter how badly you "crash" , you won't get physically hurt!
Seriously though, this article suggests a fair number of manufacturers including BMW use Microsoft based systems in their cars. It's Windows.CE.
What makes you think it would have been any less capable at it than Windows 98? Actually, I'm really surprised that they chose Win98. I would have expected a realtime-ready OS for a job like this. In fact, DOS would have probably been a better choice in this case than any of the Windows versions or normal Linux distributions.
GreyPoopon
--
Why is it I can write insightful comments but can't come up with a clever signature?
Unsurprisingly, Volvo is not using Windows 98 in their safety concept car. As Motor Trend reported in May, they're using Microsoft's embedded operating system, Windows CE. It's kind of old news that Microsoft has been leading an initiative on embedding CE into cars. Check out the information from MS at Microsoft Windows CE for Automotive.
You wouldnt have to release the tweaks as long as you didnt release the code as a product if I remember correctly. Just have the binaries run on the car and don't release them to the public. Right? I could be wrong.
Why would any software running on linux need to be open source? I'm assuming you're implying that the GPL might require all other applications put in the same computer must be GPL'ed too. That, of course, would mean running XFree86, Apache, OpenOffice, and Mozilla couldn't be run on Linux legally, since none of them are under the GPL.
really, I do.
I'd like to see linux circa 1998 try and power a car.
:)
Well in 1998 2.0 was the kernel of the day, and from memory 2.0 was faily stable. Also I seem to remember that some embeded stuff is based on this kernel, so this would make it quite capible for running a car.
I think this article is a little misleading. I don't think all the computer system in the car would be running windows 98, just what the user(driver?) can see. I think the real time stuff would be running a RTOS, like QNX.
Oh yeah OS'es don't power cars, petrol/desile/electrons do
Maybe the gimmicky interface parts run windows CE (this volvo car isnt all that new, i remember reading about it a long time ago), but either way the crucial components would never be left to something that centralized.
-
I drove the Volvo that the MIT Media Lab used to collect 'predictive' data for the lane-change detection etc. It was an interesting experience - driving in Boston wearing a small fiber optic video camera taped (!) to some cheap safety glasses, several video cameras pointing every which way, and sensors on the steering wheel, brake pedal, and gas pedal to collect the data.
:) Well worth all of the funny looks I got on I-95.
The theory was that they would use the data to predict when you were *about* to change lanes - and set off an alarm if there were a car in your way. I'd be interested to know if they actually succeeded in doing this.
This wasn't a fully automated process - there was a co-driver who you had to tell when you were going to change lanes, turn, etc., then he would punch the appropriate action into a laptop.
Then again, I got paid $20 for the hour or so it took, so I'm not complaining
A safe car runs Windows 98? Bwuhahahahaha. That's funny.
Expect this car to be listed as the one that crashes the most. Some bug in the software will probably tell the user to turn left on red.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
Isn't MS going to stop supporting Win98 soon? Does this mean I'll have to buy a whole new car, or can I upgrade to XP-Automobile? (Maybe XP-Freight, if I'm always carrying stuff in the trunk.)
> Your "joke" was the first with a funny moderation on it that i saw. I would like to take the opportunity to address the rest of the slashbots and say "all the rest of the windows 98 BSOD jokes are going to suck". ... I'd like to see linux circa 1998 try and power a car.
You probably wouldn't have too look too hard to find a Linux system that hasn't been down since 1998.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
No, I pointed out that you are either a victim, or, more likely, a perpetrator of FUD regarding the GPL and the Linux kernel.
The Linux kernel is GPL-ed, but it has an exception, which allows the creation, use and distribution of proprietary drivers. NVidia uses this to provide their closed-source Linux drivers. It is very likely that any changes automobile manufacturers need could be limitted to specific drivers for the kernel.
Can you hear me now?
Where Linux helps is in licensing, if a focus group (of potential buyers of that car) will accept a linux system (appearence and function) then the cost differential is it. $100, $50 or even $25 per CE license times a few million units (cars), suddenly a free OS may look a little better.
However, while the system is only going to be in high-end vehicles (where markup is high anyway) the cost difference isn't such an issue so the incentive to use a low-cost OS isn't as great. Once these system start to appear in lower-cost vehicles, more cost pressures appear.
Either way, it's hard to argue against a high-quality, free OS!
Computer Science is Applied Philosophy
It is very possible that this was an error or genernalization by the reporter. He says that the car has 5 computer systems and they run windows98.. it is very possible that these systems are not for the control of the car, but rather for end-user use in each of the 5 seats available.
It may also be possible that he meant to say that only one of them uses Windows98, etc.
Looking at other reviews, I couldn't find any information regarding their computer systems.
I work in a factory, I roll mats on a machine which uses a scanner connected on a computer which tells me on which route to place the mat. I've been there 2.5 months, for 8 hours a day, and never seen it crash.
> I'd like to see linux circa 1998 try and power a car.
It's 2002 and they've chosen win98 for their new model.
Linux's usability in 98 doesn't matter. It's more than capable of running a car today...
Common sense is not so common.
I realize that further discussion on this topic is useless because we already know that the version of windows embedded into these cars is CE, not 98. However, for all of you wondering what it takes to embed win98, here's someone who did it:
clicka
[o]_O
"It appears that your driving to work..."
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
Does anyone remember www.dashpc.com?
It is about embedding a linux-powered PC inside a car. The project is improving everyday - if you're interested, please take a good look. Very interesting stuffs.
General Motors doesn't have a "help line" for people who don't know how to drive, because people don't buy cars like they buy computers - - but imagine if they did... HELPLINE: "General Motors Helpline, how can I help you?" CUSTOMER: "I got in my car and closed the door, and nothing happened!" HELPLINE: "Did you put the key in the ignition slot and turn it?" CUSTOMER: "What's an ignition?" HELPLINE: "It's a starter motor that draws current from your battery and turns over the engine." CUSTOMER: "Ignition? Motor? Battery? Engine? How come I have to know all of these technical terms just to use my car?" HELPLINE: "General Motors Helpline, how can I help you?" CUSTOMER: "My car ran fine for a week, and now it won't go anywhere!" HELPLINE: "Is the gas tank empty?" CUSTOMER: "Huh? How do I know!?" HELPLINE: "There's a little gauge on the front panel, with a needle, and markings from 'E' to 'F.' Where is the needle pointing?" CUSTOMER: "It's pointing to 'E.' What does that mean?" HELPLINE: "It means that you have to visit a gasoline vendor, and purchase some more gasoline. You can install it yourself, or pay the vendor to install it for you." CUSTOMER: "What!? I paid $12,000.00 for this car! Now you tell me that I have to keep buying more components? I want a car that comes with everything built in!" HELPLINE: "General Motors Helpline, how can I help you?" CUSTOMER: "Your cars suck!" HELPLINE: "What's wrong?" CUSTOMER: "It crashed, that's what went wrong!" HELPLINE: "What were you doing?" CUSTOMER: "I wanted to run faster, so I pushed the accelerator pedal all the way to the floor. It worked for a while, and then it crashed -- and now it won't start!" HELPLINE: "It's your responsibility if you misuse the product. What do you expect us to do about it?" CUSTOMER: "I want you to send me one of the latest versions that doesn't crash anymore!" HELPLINE: "General Motors Helpline, how can I help you?" CUSTOMER: "Hi! I just bought my first car, and I chose your car because it has automatic transmission, cruise control, power steering, power brakes, and power door locks." HELPLINE: "Thanks for buying our car. How can I help you?" CUSTOMER: "How do I work it?" HELPLINE: "Do you know how to drive?" CUSTOMER: "Do I know how to what?" HELPLINE: "Do you know how to DRIVE?" CUSTOMER: "I'm not a technical person! I just want to go places in my car!"
My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
My brother in law worked on some of the components of this car. It doesn't "run" anything. Nor does it even use 98. It uses windows CE to run a few of the non critical subsystems of the car. It's actually a great concept. Everyone needs to chill on the "jump down whoever's throat is mentioned using any microsoft product" bandwagon. This site is actually starting to sound a lot like middle school. Boo to MSNBC for misreporting and setting off the microsoft alarms.
-- There's only one replacement for displacement.....
Ahem... MacOS X aka Darwin is basically a FreeBSD release reworked to run on Mach.
What makes you think it would have been any less capable at it than Windows 98?
:)
From the level of knowledge this guy displays, I'd guess he probably figures that since KDE didn't exist back then*, then Linux wasn't good for anything but running web servers at the time.
(Realistically, of course, Linux circa 1998 would be just fine, though it might not scale well if one kernel had to control more than 2 CPUs
*Yes, I know that it actually did.
I would like to challenge y'all step beyond the specific OS choice and consider the technological implications of this article. For example:
This points towards the impending implementation of ubiquitous computing that's been talked about for years. It seems that embedded computers have reached adequate power that we can start using similar platforms in them that we use in PC's/servers. That OQO can deliver a PC that fits in a pocket gives a picture of how the size a gadget you can put computers in. This will explode the availablity of programming knowhow available to producers of all manner of gadgets. Your PC program and interface development C / VB/ Java / KDE etc skills for PC's and servers may soon be directly applicable to VCR's, refridgerators, traffic lights, and is already applicable to some mobile phones. There are a number of avenues to explore in this direction which would be more interesting then squabling over the platform choice for this vehicle.
It might not happen in this decade- but you are starting to see the change in the face of the computer. Already, I know hospitals where the complex tasks of registering patients and services rendered are accomplished by staff walking around with card scanners and portable computers. The office worker is leaving the office. Think about your JOBS and possibilities. There is enormous potential for innovation in applications here and interfaces here.
Sigh, I guess we should get back to the BSOD / M$ squabble.
My motto: "A cat is no trade for integrity."
"I would like to take the opportunity to address the rest of the slashbots and say "all the rest of the windows 98 BSOD jokes are going to suck". "
It's cooler to hate MS than it is to know what you're talking about. If the article was about the car running Linux and somebody cracked a joke like "I guess that means they won't make one that has an automatic transmission", you'd get modded down as 'troll' or 'flamebait'. Never mind that Windows users who have dabbled in Linux would find that funny as hell.
I've been a user and promoter of Linux since late '94. Pushed it for the first time (quite successfully, BTW) at NASA Dryden in 95 for use in their mission control rooms.
.02--have a nice day/life :)
And I've been pushing Linux ever since--in 1998 I'm sure that I had several boxes with uptimes (I know--who cares) over 200 days.
While linux was harder to install back then (no fancy wizards or GUI installers) it was still a fully functional and full featured O/S.
just my
Interested in the Colorado Lottery or Powerball games?
check out http://colotto.com
Having worked in tech support, I always imagined that a call to a GM support line would run like this:
Helpline: "General Motors Helpline, how can I help you?"
Customer: "I have a 1998 Camaro, and when I'm doing 60mph on the Garden State Parkway, shifting into 4th gear with the air conditioning on, my radio station mysteriously switches from my favorite radio station to that crappy country station. Is there a way I can solve this problem?"
Okay, since nobody can come up with anything better than "heh heh, the car will blue screen. heh heh. Err I can't think of any other reasons I don't like Windows", I'll flip the topic around:
:P
What if the car ran Linux?
- The version with the automatic transmission would have 4 drive gears that all work differently, that way you can pick one from an individual that you like.
- Instead of intuitive buttons on the steering column to turn on windshield wipers and so on, you have a patch board complete with a very nice array of differing lengths of cable.
- The driver of the car has to understand how the internal combustion engine works before he can go anywhere in it.
- More than one steering wheel can be added to the car, afterall it is a multi-user OS.
- The gas door would be located underneath the car so that gas doesn't have to go as far to reach the tank. A bottleneck is removed that way.
- The key to get into the door can only fit one right side up, afterall it is case sensitive.
- The 'ding ding' noise when you start the car without the seatbelt fastened won't go off because the sound drivers don't work.
- The car wouldn't come with headlights because only newbs need to be able to see where they're going.
There, that's much better than "ha ha snort snort, that means they'll have to restart the car every ten minutes."
*Hopes the mods have a sense of humor today.*
This is the kind of things that would cause the other part of your split personality to develop SOAP-based protocols.
Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
I would like to offer to make this mod to anyone who can provide me (and the dashpc team) with this volvo. Our references can be found here and here.
PLEASE NOTE: This is a shameless plug.
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
Maybe you missed the fact that Volvo sold its light car division to Ford something like 4-5 years ago. I love my 740 wagon, and you could probably pursuade me to set foot in a C70 convertible, but I really worry about the safety of a Volvo made by Ford....
What is your Slash Rating?
I have to stick up for us Volvo drivers. I've seen worse driving by folks in Japanese sportscars and clunker American boats than I have Volvo drivers. The folks in the sportscars fall into two classes: those who try to use raw speed on the interstate, and those who bought a sporty looking car that they're afraid to use. The folks in the beaters all seem to be driving 10 under in the fast lane.
Most of the Volvos I've seen are driving smoothly in traffic. They're usually soccer moms in V, 7, and 9 series wagons and sedans.
Of course, I concede you could have been driving behind me....I can milk my 740 wagon for all it's worth. But that's not because I feel safe and secure in a Volvo so that I can run people over. That's because I'm an aggressive driver who happens to like Volvos.
Then again, some people don't appreciate fine cars...I like my Volvo because I can get a little performance out of it, it is rock solid, and if there happens to be a problem, I do have a nice safety net. If I was into more performance, I'd be eyeing a BMW.....
What is your Slash Rating?
The maintenance guy at my apartment shared me this story:
It seems his buddy and his buddy's girlfriend were driving down the road. The buddy was drinking and driving, but this being the south, that sort of thing is common. In his mirror he sees blue lights flashing, so he hands his bottle to his girlfriend and says "peel off the label." She says "you can't fool a cop by just peeling the label off!" He replies "just peel it off."
So he pulls over. As the cop walks up his girlfriend gives him the label. The cop leans in and sniffs in the car, then says "are you drinking?" Slapping the label on his shoulder, he says "No, I'm on the patch."
What is your Slash Rating?
I'm afraid that with the motorcycle crowd, which is an abnormally attentive bunch of drivers, what with their lives being on the live, SUV drivers rank as serious threat #2, with Volvo drivers ranking #2. Can't much argue with their experience.
(Of course, anyone with a cell phone is a greater threat than even the clueless SUV-driving soccer mom.)
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Of course it's safe if you have to stop and reboot every few seconds (five computers running Win98 - I guess you can have any color you want as long as it's BLUE). It's probably almost as safe as Jaguars, which never even start.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
...thought that perhaps the caravan which this entailed spoiled the look and handling of the vehicle.
Behold, a joke in none of the above categories... and here comes another one!
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
...is a whole new approach - a whole new, er, depth of meaning - to the phrase `embedded systems' ...and of course...
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
I recall reading or hearing that either the S60 or the S80 was the last true Volvo and that everything else has a lot of design input and direction from Ford. Perhaps that's where the decision to use Windows 98 came from. (``Hey it's four years old! All of the bugs must be worked out by now, eh?'') Heck I barely trust Win98 to run the system (for now, needed to get into network at work) that's sitting on my desk. I can't even imagine trusting it in a mobile application unless it was some silly trip computer.
We have a 240 wagon that's still going strong. We're close to rolling over the odometer for the second time and I expect we'll see the third before we finally replace it. I'm doubting that too many of the newer Volvos will last as long. Still see a lot of 240s on the road, though.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Where else would you put systems that needed frequent booting? `How often do you boot your systems?' `Oh, permanently.'
:-)
* Note to yanks: this is what the rest of the English-speaking world calls that bit under the lid on the back of a sedan where luggage goes (-: A `trunk' is the hose thingy dangling from the front of an elephant.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Yes it is, I've been sitting here laughing my ass off.
...
That said, I gotta go; I think it's my turn to hit the bong
Will they be bringing out an AI version with it's own set of driver disks? (-: Will it support plug and play within the vehicle? :-)
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
It's probably almost as safe as Jaguars, which never even start.
No... Jags are probably on parr with Volvos, even running Windows 98. (Volvo owns Ford, guess what webserver www.ford.com runs on... urk.)
Jags have Lucas Electrics. Unlike Ozzy, Joe Lucas is the original Prince of Darkness.
Q: Why is it the British like warm beer?
A: Because Lucas makes refrigerators!
Q: How many Lucas engineers does it take to change a light bulb?
A: None! They just redefine darkness as the prevailing standard!
No, that last joke started with Lucas, not Microsoft. :)
Honestly, I thought the stories of honking your horn and having the headlights go out were an urban myth and an exaggeration by those who don't know anything about automotive electrical systems. Then I rewired a 1950s MG for a friend. On the pre-work test drive, that happened to me.
How? I had the system all apart, and all I can guess is that the headlights and the horn relay shared a *slightly* corroded ground connection. I couldn't believe that would do it.
How about a car where the headlights draw 20 amps, the parking light circuit another 10 amps, the windshield wipers another 15 amps, and the generator only puts out 40 amps?
(Electrical Engineering Homework: if the battery is rated for 50Amp-hours, the ignition system stops working when the system voltage gets below 7 volts, and the vehicle speed is 35 MPH, how far can you get on a rainy night before the engine stops running and the battery is too dead to run the starter?)
Lucas Electric jokes here.
Urk.
Jaguar not starting? That's okay. The starter motor cranking overheats the wire's insulation. The wire's insulation catches fire and ignites the fuel spilled when the fuel pump's relay stuck on when the car was last run. Ka-boom.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
Fire-retardant children's footsie pajamas made of woven det-cord soaked in lighter fluid!
pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
About 7 or 8 years ago, driving along the westbound lane of Canning Highway here in sunny Perth, Western Australia, I chanced to look up as I paused at the lights in Melville outside the KFC. A block away down the road, a Volvo station wagon began reversing out onto the Highway. Slowly. As the light went green, it halted astride the dotted line which separates the two westbound lanes. When I say `astride', I mean the line bisected the car's diff. It sat there. And sat there. The reversing lights went off. It sat there some more. The brake lights went off. Slooooowly, slowly it began to roll down the Highway towards Bicton. It would have been doing about 20-30km/h (in a 60km/h speed zone) by the time the traffic caught up with it, still perfectly aligned over the dividing line. As it nochalantly sidled towards the 40km/h mark on the way around the corner, it weaved a little left, then drifted across to the right until it finally sat in the right-hand lane (keep left in Oz, unless overtaking) at about 50km/h on the way up the hill, and the other traffic could finally begin to set about overtaking. The driver was an old Asian bloke wearing a tweed hat.
Despite some of my very good Asian friends being excellent drivers, and an Asian friend of Dad's being a good driving instructor, Asian drivers (at least in Oz) are generally hopeless. I've seen one tourist* accidentally put his rent-a-car sideways twenty feet onto a dry dirt road at about 30km/h, and a FoaF who repairs brick walls for an insurance company claims that around 2/3 to 3/4 of the damage he repairs is done by drivers with Asian names. You might be pleased to know that they tend to prefer Mercedes to Volvos. It must also be said that many more BMW drivers than Volvo drivers seem to have forgotten what the little orange lights are for.
* Yes, tourists really do expect to see kangaroos hopping down the main street of Perth, so the Council's put in some nice bronze ones for them; and yes, they really do hop into taxis and ask to be taken to Sydney (roughly 3000km).
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
"Anything is better than IE, and you can quote me on that." -- Wil Wheaton.
No certified safety-critical version of any Microsoft operating system exists. The $40 Billion in Microsoft's bank account is not enough money to get the documentation, testing, and reviews done for Windows 98. The WinCE core, with no GUI or Apps, might be certifiable in our lifetimes, but they can expect to be required to change about half of the lines of code, goven that no safety or testability measures were considered in its original production.
A false sense of safety is counter to safety.
I wouldn't ride in this thing. I wouldn't even stand on the side of any road I knew it to be driving on.
--Blair
(* Volvos (Volvoes?) are the most dangerous cars on the road. Not to those inside it, but to those outside. The morons who buy Volvoes buy it for the "safety" that's a trade-mark of the car, so they drive like assholes, thinking that if they're in accidents, they'll be okay. *)
Unlike say SUV owners who drive like assholes because they feel like they are in a big war tank and enjoy threatening other cars using their size. However, the SUV's roll over, killing the driver and 5-lanes worth of other cars.
SUV's are full of Nepoleans.
Table-ized A.I.
"Clippy On Board"
"I break for solitare"
"Bob is my copilot"
"I don't break for Netscape"
(Fish sticker with four Windows color segments)
Table-ized A.I.
check out the ARGO project.
They had an autonomous car running linux in June 1998.
Ah, but Microsoft are working on the solution - the Trusted Car Platform Architecture. The TCPA will eliminate the use of 'unauthorized' parts in cars, thus easing maintenance, improving security, and ensuring business throughflow for the CAs (car authorities). Look: everyone knows that fitting cheap tires and filling up with unauthorized gazoline poses severe security risks. TCPA will eliminate all that! Windows Is Good For You!
My blog
Of all the MS operating systems, I'd prefer 98 over anything else MS puts on the market.
1. The code is the oldest, hence the most thoroughly checked / seen code on the market from MS. Undocumented bugs for 98 itself are likely few and far between by now. By choosing XP or 2k, you're asking, no, begging to run into a "damn, Nobody saw that coming" bug.
2. The biggest problem MS faces, security, is pretty much non existant for this implimentation. Who is going to hack a volvo? Not only from the sense of there being no means, motive, or opportunity, who the hell would want to 'hack' a volvo? how anti-l33t can you get?
3. Pre-existing support. Granted, a sizable portion of this car was done as a hack together job, there are more than a few components that are likely off the shelf product. Since the products re unusual or out of the way items, I doubt the companies providing them put much, if any, though into linux/bsd/mac support
4. It's a demo car. the idea is to show that the technology exists today. It's easier to make the comparison "it runs on the same operating system your home computer does" than it is to say "we wrote specialized drivers and compiled s specific kernal for a SuSE installation based around the 2.4 kernal. The first reponse makes joe carbuyer go "ooooh" the second makes him say "huh?"
I'm all for the bashing of microsoft at every given opportunity, but for once there's no point in reinventing the wheel when you can chisel down the octogon you've got lying around. Besides, a production run would DEFINATLY run an true embedded system.
There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
Oh come on, have you never heard of ME?
Microsoft - Where would you like to go today, Maybe Jail?
After all, it's a part of the OS and cannot be removed, right?
You are right: the fact that a car company would put something as unreliable and user-unfriendly as Windows 98 into a car isn't funny, it's sad.
Amiga: Cars that were years ahead of their time, and you don't see many on the road as the manufacturer has gone out of business and parts are hard to come by.
Apple OS X: Looks great, but You could only get accessories for it if they were made by Apple.
BSD: Their cars ran really well, but the only mechanic that knows how to work on them is 500 miles away.
IBM AS/400: Your couldn't buy a car but only lease one, it would come with your own mechanic, and would cost around a million per year.
IBM OS/2: You could buy one if you are lucky enough to find one, but It never went anywhere.
IRIX: Their cars would blow the doors off all the others, if you could ever find a gas station.
QNX: You couldn't buy a car, only find the demo car, and that just had a projection of scenery moving across the windshield.
RedHat Linux: You had a choice of sports car, station wagon, mini-van, or 18-wheel tractor trailer. You could design your own if you wish to, but most people gave up when it came to picking from the 2000 different accessories.
Sun Solaris: Their cars would have a least two engines, with up to 32 engines, and they would weigh 400 tons, but once they got moving, they were hard as hell to stop.
Last but not least: Microsoft: Just Where did You think You were going today?
I may be bad with names, but I'll never forget your IP address
They probably can run it as an application. On the other hand, if they need real realtime features, it's possible that they will need to run in kernel space, and that might be a problem with the GPL (although there does seem to exist binary drivers for linux, hmmm...)
Yep. A prototype. Everyone please read yatest5's comment again, take ten deep breaths, read the above comment *again* then read the article again.
It's a prototype.
And that's before you even start thinking about failure modes of the more recent 'intelligent' engine-management systems. There was a news report a couple of months ago in Switzerland - sorry, cannot find a URL for it now - of a number of incidents near Zurich where engines in several examples of a newly-introduced model had temporarily cut out for no apparent reason, fortunately without causing damage or injury despite being on busy motorways (and in one case in a tunnel). Suspicion was on interference with vehicle electronics, possibly related to radar emmissions from the nearby air traffic control.
<luddite>Makes me glad I'm still running an '88 VW with very little electronics. Perhaps I'll do best to replace it with a comparably simple second-hand car when the time comes to retire it.</luddite>
... since it seems the slashbots are out in force today.
First off, the car *is* a prototype. It's highly unlikely it will actually be sold to the public with Windows-based software. For one thing, Windows CE (not 98, RTFA) is nearing the end of its product lifespan, so it would be pointless basing it on something that's just about to be dropped. Furthermore, Windows isn't necessarily unstable - it is when you've got the four-year-old install of 98 that came when you bought your Packard-Bell, and run all those warezed programs on it, and Kazaa sticks Gator on, and Comet Cursor (and so on). When you run "known" software and drivers, it's actually fairly stable.
Secondly, it probably won't run Linux either. Nothing wrong with Linux, in fact I use it on all my machines at work and at home. I wouldn't use it in the car, for the simple reason that it's the wrong thing for the job. What they're most likely to use is a real-time OS like QNX, or more likely still, something custom written.
At the moment, nearly all computers used in cars run entirely custom-written software, on very specialised hardware. It's quite unusual to find any processor more powerful than, say, an 8MHz Z80, although certain combined EMS/ABS units that do traction control and handle automatic gearboxes use 68000's - still at 8MHz though. They don't need to be that fast. Not much happens in a car more often than once every few milliseconds. You also don't need to do *much* calculation, because most things (ignition timing, fuelling etc) are precalculated and worked out from maps stored in ROM. When you "chip" your car for more power, the fuel and timing maps are what gets changed.
One of the annoying kinks of the car is the "Please Wait For Your Car to Shut Down" display.
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
yeah, let's hope they tweaked that f1 video game code before they installed it in the car.
i doubt it. windows 98/ME is the most IHV-supported OS. It's easy to find '98 drivers for everything, but try finding 2k/XP drivers... especially for the kind of hardware these guys were using when they started the project a few years ago. (for example, the 2k drivers for my wireless card were released just before XP, they crashed all over the place (BSoD) and were generally useless, the XP drivers have only justbeen released, although they're much better, mostly because XP does all the UI and you don't have to use the crappy 3rd-party piece-of-shit).
Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est
That reminds me of an excellent point. If this car ran Windows 98, it would take 5 minutes to start, right? eww.
Synergy is your friend
...not to you at least, obviously.
Myself, I'll stop laughing when Microsoft stop making jokes. My favourite joke this year was the marketing hype around XP: Apparently it "makes your computer faster" when you "upgrade your hardware"! Wow! Gotta get me some of that.
Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more, Or close the wall up with our American dead!
I don't know, I always found 3.1 rather stable. Totally non-functional and utterly useless, but stable nonetheless.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
240 was the best series they ever built. I had a 91 240 sedan as a graduation gift...would still have it were it not for a bit of carelessness one Sunday morning that took me through a red light.
The parents still have a 760 wagon and a 240 sedan, and they recently bought another Volvo (don't know the model) for a younger brother. Good, solid, pre-Ford cars.
I did talk to one of the sales agents at Weaver Brothers Volvo in Raleigh who told me Ford was leaving Volvo autonomous when it came to design and that if anything Ford was using Volvo's designs. I'm not sure I'm convinced, but that's the word from the company.
What is your Slash Rating?
This primarily has to to do with poor vision on the car drivers part. With an HUD people could see the oncomming red dot and hear a chime rather than losing the one oncomming headlight in the heat distortion and running bikers down.
Divided,ramped highways are your friend.
Volvo's tend keep the hell away from bikes (are their drivers afraid?) but a SUV just tried to run me down two days ago.
Here are some typical conclusions from motorcycle studies.
I would never buy a car running Windows anything for any component. If a car manufacturer doesn't see fit to write there own damn toolkit, they don't understand mission critical code by induction and the like, they are lazy and risking my life, or they are buzzword fixated.
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
I'd argue that a lot of Slashdot readers hate, unreliable, insecure software. Hating a signifigant fraction of Microsoft's offerings is merely an effect of that.
Yeah, but as you and I both know, Americans still seem not to know what that little stick on the left side of the steering wheel is for.
I hate it when I signal and start to merge into a lane and some idiot decides to merge without signalling. I particularly hate it when they're going slower and they're in front, or they're going faster and they're behind.
Then again....I grew up driving in Alabama where someone once jested that the double yellow lines are 'racing stripes.'
What is your Slash Rating?
What do you think controls the servos that indirectly give you control of your brakes and steering in most modern cars? The handbrake is still a physical control in most models, I guess. I would still not feel comfotable driving a car where the only means of manuervering is a handbrake, though.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
In the twilight, unknown"
Then we'd really be up shit's creek. I can see it now: you're driving along on the freeway at 75 MPH and your dashboard suddenly says: "New updates are automatically being installed". Next thing you know the airbags all go off, the brakes stop working, the steering pulls hard to the right, and some voice begins saying: "Please move away from the car".
Cop: Sir, I've been following you for the last 3 miles and you stopped no less than 15 times and threw the car into reverse. I'm writing you a ticket.
Driver: But officer, the owner's manual recommends frequent backups.
JET Program: see Japan, meet intere
gives a whole new meaning to the phrase 'car crash,' doesn't it?
Twenty five miles per gallon is pretty decent. Not spectacular, nothing to write home about, but it's no gas guzzler. if you're going to make up numbers, at least make them support your claims
However, you're still prettly likely to survive the crash. You'll just crash more often.
Do not touch -Willie
... presumably it's running in "safe mode" ? (sorry, someone had to say it, or at least, repeat it ...).
I actually haven't heard of any car put into production that had servos operating the steering or brakes. AFAIK they all still have mechanical linkages from the steering wheel the the front wheels (albeit with hydraulic or electric power assist) and the brake pedal still directly operates the brake master cylinder (again with power assist provided by a vacuum or electric solenoid, and servo controlled hydraulics for ABS and traction/stability control). There are several cars out now that have a drive-by-wire throttle, and most automatic transmissions are electronicaly controlled, but virtually all cars on the road can still be brought to a safe stop in the event of a massive electronic failure.
"Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!"
I have a 91 240 sedan. Just passed emissions today - w00t!
Ugly fucking thing though.
(and, of course your Volvo sales guy is going to tell you that. Why else would you pay $50k for a car instead of going down to the Ford dealer and paying $30k for essentially the same thing?)
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I find a certain appeal to the old boxy Volvos. The new ones that look like a Volvo-Ford hybrid I don't care for (especially the ones that look like a cross between a wagon and a mini SUV).
RIP Volvo. You made good cars until the '90s, then sold out to Fix or repair daily.
What is your Slash Rating?
Well, I'd *really* swoon over a p1800. That's a sweet-lookin Volvo.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Both, with Microsoft involved, and probably with endangering national security as well.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Don't you speak semicolon?
IRL, I understand that one taxi has hopped into a bronze kangaroo (wet night, changing lanes in a hurry, overdid it) but I can't see any marks from it.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
* The existing control software.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Yes, you are right in parts, but in the event of the massive electronic failure you spoke of, you would still probably have a hard time controlling the vehicle. It will require a certain amount of muscles. Aunt betty might not have those. I have tried driving servo controlled cars with the servos off (legally) and I can tell you, it was no picnic.
--
"I'm surfin the dead zone
In the twilight, unknown"
It'll have a tough acceptance curve when it's discovered that you have to call M$ to get a new access code every fifth time you change drinks in your cupholder.