Recycling The First World, in the Third

simoncito writes "Ever wondered where that old useless printer ended up? BBC has a photo report about chinese villagers building ramshackle systems out of used and discarded first world computer parts. The effects on their surroundings are drastic - I never knew hardware was so poisonous." Worth a look if you aren't desensitized to suffering. Anyone know the proper way to dispose of a monitor?

Comments

The proper way to dispose of a copier ...

[slagdogg]

Two words ... Office Space.

Proper way to dispose of a monitor

[Jeffrey Baker]

The proper way to dispose of a working monitor is to give it to someone who needs one. The proper way to dispose of a non-working or obsolete monitor or television is to take it to a computer recycling center, who can safely crush the CRT and dispose of the toxic plastic and electronics.

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor

[Jeffrey Baker]

That has nothing to do with the statement of the problem. The problem statement is "how to dispose of a monitor". This implies that the monitor exists, was manufactured in the past, and is currently owned by some entity. So you have to get rid of it somehow, you can't just wish it hadn't been built that way. And as I said, it is much better to have the parts concentrated at a toxic waste center than to chuck it in the trash. CRT monitors are full of lead and other toxic chemicals, and it is also very difficult and dangerous to crush them. The job is best left to a dedicated facility. A recycling center can also reuse the glass for metal smelting operations.

The problem of waste electronics is already being addressed. CRTs are already less favored than LCDs. LCDs generate less waste because they contain less material, and do not use a giant leaded glass tube. They do not have high-voltage, high-current power supplies, and thus need less fireproofing. Further an LCD can be expected to last practically forever if the backlight can be replaced. That of course reduces waste tremendously.

Finally, there are movements afoot to phase out lead, mercuryt, cadmium, chromium, and other dangerous chemicals from electronics products. Lead-free soldering processes are already available, but not widely deployed. The EU has proposed to phase out these dangerous chemicals in electronics by January 2008. Other nations have similar proposals. Google for WEEE to find the EU proposal.

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor

[R@Bastard]

I live in New York City. I had a monitor (non-working, beyond repair) to dispose of. I tried the following:

1. I called about 10 computer repair shops, asking them what to do, and if I could PAY them to dispose of it properly. No.

2. I called the City's garbage/recycling department to ask them what to do. They had no special information, and instructed me to put it out with the trash.

3. I called the local branch of the EPA, asking what to do, since I know that it contains toxic waste. They said that there were no special disposal method that I could do, but that it was technically illegal for me to throw it away. I asked her what I should do... she recommended that I just throw it away.

Yes, yes, I did do a Google search. This was 2 years ago, and there weren't any relevant results.

I hope this is better now.

It's a problem when someone like me, who spent about an hour trying to find the right thing to do, cannot find the right thing to do.

Monitor Disposal..

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Anyone know the proper way to dispose of a monitor."

Ya'll should do what we do in Kansas. Whenever a TV stops working, we place the new one on top of the old one.

If you have too many of them there telly visions, you can place them in your front yard. Move them around the yard enough, and you'll never have to mow it!

Re:Monitor Disposal..

[unicron]

Yeah, the thing to also remember is to put a blanket over the old TV. What's really nice is if the sound still works on the old TVs, so once you have like 2 or 3 TVs under the blanket, house guests will go "My god, that 13inch TV has better sound than my 52" HDTV!"

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor...

[Jucius Maximus]

"I always thought old monitors were supposed to sit around in your attic."

1. If you can't use the monitor, then first look into local schools. I know that in Ontario, Canada, you can get a tax credit for donating used computer equipment to schools. My high school (according to my brother who still goes there) has about 4 computer labs for ~P100-266 machines from this program which still word process and surf fairly nicely.

2. If the monitor is broken and the cost of repair is more than a comprable new monitor, then there will be specialised safe disposal facilities at must garbage dumps. Chances are you have to drive there and drop it off yourself, but it's worth it in preventing the Lead, Arsenic, etc from getting into the water.

3. When getting a new CRT montior, make sure it conforms to at least TCO99 (there is a sticker) because these have environmentally conscious amounts of harmful chemicals in them, but should still be disposed of safely in the end.

TechTV.

[13Echo]

Tech TV ran a great program on this some time ago.

Check it out here.

A co-worker of mine has a friend in China, and it is something that he really takes seriously. He actually wrote an article in our IT newsletter a few months ago, talking about the waste that we dump into Asia. All sorts of countries are doing this. Companies are paying to dump this junk off to the cheapest landfill. It is sick. It is something that we need to take seriously. Large ships take this stuff to Asia every day.

I also read that there are start-up companies that are trying to take this stuff and dismantle it properly. Recycling this stuff, and appropriately preventing serious toxic hazards.

The first way to start is simple... Don't throw this stuff into the trash. Landfills are becoming full of this stuff. Donate working computer stuff, or try to find a suitable recycling facility. It is important to realize that this can be done with all electronics.

ComputerRecycle.com.

Re:TechTV.

[TGK]

Ok, someone has to play the devil's advocate here so I guess I'll do it.

Who are we to look down on them? Ok, so China is building its economy by dismanteling computer parts in environmentaly hazerdous ways which are seriously messing with their children's health.

How do you think the US became the economic hegemon it was in the 1940s? It wasn't by recycling or giving a rats ass about child wellfare. It was by employing 8 year old imigrant children in factories for 12 hours a day, paying them slaves wages (or something close) and generaly making life hell for a bunch of people.

Of course now we've forgotton all that. Now we've gotten past our past and we want other States to industrialize and become economicly powerfull according to our ideals and environmental standards. The problem is those ideals and standards are a product of our economic superiority.

You can not expect States like China, India, Vietnam, most of South/Central America etc to pull themselves up by their bootstraps without resorting to the same general horrors that we did. I'm not saying its not possible, just that it's unrealistic.

Look at the photographs of the United States from the early 1900s and late 1800s. It wasn't a pretty place to live. We were a horrid nasty vile little cesspool and from that we have created a fairly impressive society.

So China is playing with fire. They will get burned, just like we did. They will kill their children, just like we did. And maybe someday they to can join the ranks of the post-industrial world. Until then we have to let them do what they can. No one told the US that it wasn't ok to commit our attrocities. Why are we any different?

Hello and we think CHINA cares?

[Razzious]

I mean come on the country that gives about as many civil rights to its people as Bill Gates distributes Linux.

These people would have lived CRAP lives regardless of the horrible evil of computer waste products there. It must not be too severe or the Chinese government would be fast to stop it. We all know they could do so if they wanted to. However it provides these people with some form of income and keeps them out of the hair of the rest of the country.

I have traveled the world and the things being condemned here amount to nothing in comparison to what others suffer through elsewhere. Hell I would gie money to the Christian Childrens Fund before thinking twice about if my toner cartridge was going to be salvaged in China. And while on TONER and its evils...SWEET N LOW is a cancerous agent too...as is BBQ's food.

Re:Taco, Google. Google, Taco.

[per unit analyzer]

I looked through some of the links that google returned and I was happy to find a few places that will "process" your monitor. However, what concerns me is that none of them outlined how they "process" your monitor. How can I be sure that "process" isn't a euphemism for "pack into a shipping container headed for China?" Anyone know of a link to a place that would definitely handle the hazardous waste in a proper manner? Or would you have to telephone/email some of these outfits and interrogate them to make sure?

--z

I feel bad some days.

[TibbonZero]

This is going to sound really odd, but I sincerly feel bad some days for the fact that I tread so heavily on the earth (not weight morons, enviormentally).

I feel bad about the fact that I generate trash with everything I do. I want to go completely paperless, because I don't like the idea of killing the rainforest for paper. I know that some cutting in forests is actually good for the forest, but few loggers do that.
Even if I didn't use paper, I still get things in the mail, I have packaging, etc...
My computers, my music equipment, my house, my car (esp my car), generate waste.
Even the food I eat, I consider waste. I want to be a vegitarian some days, just because of enviormental impact of hog farms, overfishing, etc... I would like to be in touch with the earth more- kinda of like how you think of indians (opps, native americans), of being.
You may ask, well why don't you. It's because I can't. I am in college. I live in Boston (well in 6 days I do). I can't plant myself a garden. I can't rid myself of paper. I can't use solar/wind/geothermal power in my apartment. I know that there are little things that I can do, and I do those, but it feels small in comparison. Well, at least I won't have my car in Boston, so the T should save some energy somewhere. Does anyone else feel bad about their impact on the enviorment? I am not an activist, just a concerned person. Even if something actually doesn't 'impact' something drastically, I still feel bad for that disruption.

Here's Info on IBM's Recycling Service

[Obsequious]

Short version is that you pay IBM $30, and you can stuff a box (of a certain size) with as much hardware as will fit, and ship it back to IBM via UPS. IBM will then refurbish the stuff and donate it to charity, or will recycle it.


http://www.ibm.com/ibm/environment/products/pcrs er vice.shtml

Don't be stupid

[cr@ckwhore]

Anyone know the proper way to dispose of a monitor?

Now thats the dumbest thing I've heard in a while. How do you think those monitors got to china anyway? People improperly dumping them in the woods, and then the monitors get up and walk to china? C'mon!

These montors and other computer junk gets sent to china because its collected properly here in the US at our transfer stations and recycling facilities. This stuff is "recycled", just like scrap metals, plastics, and paper. "Recycling" means that its collected, and sold en mass to bigger companies willing to buy it. Then, those companies sell it to bigger companies, and so on. Apparently, the end of the chain is China, and I'm fine with that.

Its like we're shipping our computer crap over there and forcing it on them. Its bought by companies over there, and shipped. Those companies employ people to process the material. Its not my fault that they don't use respirators! For crying out loud... there's a reason why we're the #1 industrialized nation, and they're a "3rd world" nation, and its not because we've spend hundreds of years feeling guilty for other nations.

Re:Don't be stupid

[renard]

For crying out loud... there's a reason why we're the #1 industrialized nation, and they're a "3rd world" nation, and its not because we've spend hundreds of years feeling guilty for other nations.

Hey, good point. While you're at it, why not gloat over the fact that your accident of birth in the United States (I'm guessing) instead of, say, Thailand means that you have the money and the power to purchase the virginity of a 13-year old in Bangkok?

Seriously though: think about it. Capital is no substitute for morality, and just because the "market will bear" your exploitation of other human beings doesn't mean you have the right.

-Renard

Re:Don't be stupid

[CommieLib]

Well, the reason why the U.S. is the #1 industrialized nation, and China is not, has little to do with the horrible working conditions described here. Perhaps I'm missing your sarcasm.

The problem here, as it always is, is poverty. The reason why people choose to work in horrible conditions is because they don't have a better alternative available, in their own estimation. Americans have a powerful tendency to project their own values and choices onto others without a realistic appraisal of the situation. For example, when we crack down on "third world" sweatshops (in itself a slightly racist term, IMHO), net effect is that all these children who were working in horrible conditions are fired. Of course we would prefer that the children be going to school, or just about anything more healthy for a child than working. But if nothing more attractive is available, these people migrate to a less desirable, and less visible means of supporting themselves.

In this country, we've decided that some things are not to be held open as options, no matter how horrible the alternative. I tend to say that what I see in this photo article should be stopped, but I do wonder if I'm not assuming options that would be available here are available there, when that's not necessarily true.

Re:Don't be stupid

[st0rmshad0w]

So you missed the news about the humongous cloud of pollution emminating from China that will eventually pass over the rest of the planet.

Nice.

Earth = Closed system.

More toxics in China (or wherever) means more toxics on Earth. You know, remember Earth? Its where you keep your stuff.

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor...

[Nogami_Saeko]

Argh, I have moderator points, but I must post ;P

We need a new generation of "tech-hicks" who can leave old computer junk on their lawns instead of broken-down old cars.

"That there is mah old Commodore 64! She don look like much, but she used to play a wikkid game o MULE"

(from the house) "Billy-Bob! Yer new 200gig-o-bite hard disk just come from Fedex!"

"DAMN WOMAN, go install mah raid server willya? Donna forget to stripe drives NTFS. None o that fat32!"

Cancer me this.

[MisterSquid]

Sure, saying "asbestos causes cancer" is FUD, if by FUD you mean "Fear," "Uncertainty," and "Doubt".

In this case, however, FUD does not mean "unverifiable myth."

If you're curious about the level of toxicity of asbestos, try going here.

The upshot of that site reads as follows:

Asbestos is well recognized as a carcinogen. It causes lung cancer, mesothelioma, and other cancers. The people at highest risk are those with very heavy exposure, usually over many years on the job. Smoking acts together with asbestos to greatly increase the risk of lung cancer. While asbestos use is much less common now than it was years ago, there is still a potential for exposure in older buildings and products.

Furthermore, many kinds of toner are listed as possible human carcinogens. One of the reasons for this may be that conclusive evidence has not yet been gathered (read: powerful lobby to defund government studies).

The first 5 pages of this Google search yields results you might find handy.

Ship Wrecking

[Embedded Geek]

[rant]

Alang is a small stretch of beach along the coast of India where a surprising number of ships are eventually scrapped. Instead of a dry dock, the ships are rammed full speed into the oily beach, then are picked over by workers for scrap. There are 35,000 men ripping apart the things with hammers and sledges. The welders use oxygen and cooking propane, the most skilled of them getting the choice assignment of ventilating fuel tanks to get rid of the fumes (yes, the welders ventilate the explosive fumes). The place is a filthy mess of pollution and there's an estimated fatality a day. By all estimates, it's basically Hell on Earth.

I read about this in an article in the Atlantic Monthly (Aug 2000). The piece detailed the horrible conditions, the economic motivation (wrecking a ship filled with toxic waste is an expensive proposition here in the West), and the efforts of enviromental groups to put a stop to it. But the real eye opener was the reaction of the Indians.

Many were pissed that the industrialized world wanted to stop the wrecking and considered such efforts hypocritical. They are not stupid and they know the risks they're facing. They are more than willing to take those risks for steady, reliable income. Many of them point to the pollution and conditions in Dehli that are worse than at Alang. They laugh at what concerns Greenpeace in their tidy offices in London and Holland.

Do I think it's wrong to ship toxic waste to these countries instead of taking care of it at home? Yes. Should I condemn people who are not really that much different from Americans during the Depression from trying to get by? No. These things are never black and white.

[/rant]

PS: I have heard that some regulation has come to Alang and other wrecking operations of late, so my Atlantic Monthly article is likely out of date. Apologies in advance. Also, I found two stories online about the issue: in Wired and The Baltimore Sun. I have not read them all the way through, though, and highly recommend the dead tree version of the Monthly piece if you can find it.

Give it back to the manufacturer

[jjtime4sko]

Most reputable computer companies provide recycling services for their and other manufacturers' equipment.

Try HP Product Recycling Services

In the US, it costs $13-34, including shipping. There are cheaper solutions, but you risk having your monitor end up in somebody's backyard in China. HP at least operates 2 recycling plants in Roseville, CA, and Nashville, TN.

Are you a troll?

[GuyMannDude]

I can't tell if you're trolling or not but since I've seen a couple of comments here that seem to agree with your position, I feel the need to reply.

As for the enviornmental concerns, last time I looked China wasn't the 51st state. If their government can't control it then it's their problem not ours.

You're a little heartless, aren't you? "Hey, if it's not my fault, I don't wanna hear about it." These people are suffering. Doesn't that mean anything to you? And as far as the thought that environmental concerns outside of the US isn't our concern, what do you say about the chemicals that are being released into the atmosphere when they burn all that stuff? Toxins don't respect international boundaries.

Amazing how America can be portrayed as the bad guy all around the world.

I didn't see anything in the article specifically pointing the blame finger at the US. But it's worth noting that we are making this problem worse with our throw-away society. I would wager that the average American buys a new computer every 3-4 years. And they don't just buy a new processor and more memory, they buy a whole new friggin' computer! New keyboard, new motherboard, new monitor, new printer, etc. even though their old one is still functioning. If more people would simply buy what they need instead of being lazy and buying the package deal they get from Dell or Gateway, there wouldn't be so much hazardous computer trash to get rid of. Hell, even if you don't want to deal with the hastle of installing your own components into your old motherboard, just tell Dell or Gateway that you don't want the monitor. If they say "No, you have to buy the monitor as well!" you say "No, I dont. I'm leaving." No one is forcing you to add to the waste problem of the world.

Face facts, if you're stupid enough to inhale fumes from PC parts you're burning you should be dead. Those who don't die make money.

Did you read the article? These people have the equivalent of a few years of schooling at most. How many American elementary school kids do you think realize how much toxic stuff is in computers? These people don't have the education or knowledge to realize what they're doing. And even if they did, these people are desperate for a job. I'm sure that you, sitting at your computer munching away at a jelly donut or gulping down a SuperSize McDonald's meal don't fully realize how desperate one can be when you have a choice between a job that gives you headaches or watching your family starve to death.

If you don't like where you live ... move. It's like Sam Kinnison used to say, "You live in a freaking desert. Move."

Again, these people don't have any money. It takes money to start a new life. And where the hell do you suggest they go? Oh, that's right: this isn't your problem. As for the Kinnison quote, keep in mind that he was a comedian. You're not supposed to live your life in accordance with his routine.

I suspect America is "portrayed as the bad guy all around the world" because of awful human beings such as yourself who openly laugh at the less fortunate.

GMD

Paper doesn't come from rainforests!!

[GuyMannDude]

I want to go completely paperless, because I don't like the idea of killing the rainforest for paper.

God dammit!! Why do people keep saying this?!? Paper comes from trees specifically planted to produce paper! It doesn't come from the trees in the rainforests! The rainforests are being cut down because space is needed for agricultural development in 3rd world countries. Do you really think trees are falling in South America and then being shipped to the USA to make paper??

Your post (which someone modded as 'Insightful') seems to ask what you can do for the environment. Here's my suggestion: make sure you really understand the issues. Because when you start spouting things like "killing the rainforest for paper" you make ALL of us look like idiots. It's too easy for the pro-big-business, anti-environment forces to point to someone like you and paint all concerned people as morons who want to save the rainforests "because Sting said so".

GMD

Then be pro-active.

[mekkab]

simply wallowing is not the answer.

Fine, you feel bad. So what are you gonna do about it? Short term? Long term?
Short term- you could buy your food from local farmers markets and buy organic in supermarkets.
(remember: Organic means poop!)

Don't buy soaps and shampoos from companies that test on animals (you can get a list from peta.com- my wife does this and you can still buy producst from Target... just not all of 'em.)

Don't buy products from companies who "pollute" the environment.

For the mid term- the next car you buy should be a hybrid. Get in touch with people who have gone completely off the grid (hydro, wind, solar, etc.)
and see how they made the transition.
Marry someone who can sew and make your own clothes. (or do it yrself!)

Make a plan, and DO IT. Its gonna cost you more money, its gonna take up more time and effort to do what everyone else does; but no one said character building was easy.

If you can dream it, you can do it. If you whine about it, you'll get the smack-down you deserve.
If you do it and whine about it, then yr just like me! ;)

Seattle's county ahead of the game on this

[eggboard]

Seattle's county, King County, handles solid waste disposal, and launched a project two years ago that turned into a pretty serious change in how computers are disposed of at dumps. Yes, people can still try to slip in electronics, but you can no longer drop off monitors, and other CRTs will follow. The county works with local businesses, and has found safe and well-documented U.S. sources to send the products to.

For instance, monitors are disassembled, and the tubes sent to Pennsylvania, where the glass is smelted, and the lead separate for reuse. (The poster who mentioned that LCDs change this equation are right: no new smelters for recycling are being built because CRTs will no longer exist outside specialized uses, so existing smelters will handle the tens of millions of discards.)

Likewise, circuits and other components are sent to companies that often offer job retraining and are nonprofits to safely, under OSHA rules, extract useful materials. One outfit in the SF Bay Area can even get usable epoxy out of circuit boards which can be reused.

The real problem with computing as with white goods (appliances) and other products like cars is that the manufacturers are only required to use safe techniques in building them. Disposal is not part of the price tag. This is changing gradually in Europe, and it's clear to all concerned that if there were a federal mandate, we'd all see savings over the lifecycle of the product: we wouldn't have surprise billion-dollar cleanup funds, and would stop poisoning the rest of the world.

HP and other companies have taken some great steps with toner cartridges and some other limited products that they build in such a way that they can be easily disassembled and much of the parts reused or refashioned.

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor...

[sean@thingsihate.org]

The problem with all that is that it takes effort. I'm sorry but for most people the money they save in a tax write off is not worth driving all around town looking for a school or dump that can safely take a monitor off your hands.

Good Will and other thrift stores won't take any more monitors. At least, the ones around here won't. They've already got too many.

It's kind of the same situation with recycling bottles and cans in California. I used to live in Oregon, where you can take your empty bottles and cans to any grocery store, any time day or night. Five cents for cans, ten cents for bottles.

Here in California, you have to take them to a designated recycling center, which is open about six hours a day on weekdays. And there's only one in the city I live in, all the way across town. And you can take a hundred cans back, and you won't get jack shit because the redemption value is so low in California. And they don't give you cash, either, they give you a certificate that you have to take to a nearby grocery store or something, stand in line there, and then they'll give you your 90 cents or whatever it is you've got.

I used to take my bottles and cans back out of a sense of duty. But I got sick of going down there on my lunch break (the only time I could go there when the recycling center is open) to find out that either

(A) The recycling center was closed for lunch, or closed on Tuesdays, or something like that.
or
(B) There was a long line of people returning bottles and cans, when it's my turn I get a certificate for 90 cents, which I then have to take to the grocery store next door and stand in line to claim.

I started throwing my bottles and cans away. I feel bad about it, but Jesus Christ it's like they went out of their way to make it invonvenient in this state. In some cities (San Francisco, Oakland, Berkeley, Sacramento) you can throw cans into the trash and rest assured that some homeless person will pick them out. But in the suburban white bread town I'm stuck in at the moment? No way. Those cans are going straight to the dump.

Same deal with monitors. They really ought to be recycled. So it'd be nice if it weren't such a pain in the ass to do so. I'd gladly support my tax dollars going toward recycling centers that took monitors and didn't completely suck. Or worked out a deal with grocery stores or someone else to handle it, like they do in Oregon.

You're absolutely right (but so is he)

[jht]

The problem here that I see is that human life is a precious thing. And when I apply my values and philosophies to other places, I am appalled that people in China are so poor that they have to subsist by stripping old, dangerous electronic equipment.

Unfortunately, there's a flip side of that which makes things even more tragic:

there's places in the world so desperately poor that stripping old, dangerous electronic equipment is actually a step up for them.

This is the heart of the problem, and why I can't condemn what happens in China (or the Indian ship-breakers). Our wealthy society discards these materials because they no longer have value to us. However, they have sufficient value as to advance the lives of some poor souls overseas, where their lives are so wretched as to make scrap-sifting a viable living.

Despite all the hazardous material that can lower life expectancy through exposure, a lot of these people are so poorly fed and cared for that it makes virtually no difference what sort of danger they face - they'll die young regardless. It's awful, but it's reality. And projecting our standards onto their lives won't help them, really - it'll just make us feel less guilty about the reality.

Western civilization went through a period like this - it was called the Industrial Revolution, and it lasted almost a century. Now it's happening elsewhere, and the people who are suffering now are doing so so that the generations that come after them may have a better chance of success. I'm not saying things are identical today, but the privileged life we Westerners live today (and especially we North Americans) was built on the backs of our ancestors who worked as essentially conscript labor and died young.

Think about it. I may be horrified by the life these people in China are living, but for many of them it's their only chance at a better life. That's not our fault. I'm not saying we should waste more to give them something to do. I'm just saying they are part of the system, and if for some reason we're all able to stop disposing of monitors someday they'll find another job that nobody else in the global economy wants to do. It may be a safer job. But then again, it may not.