Recycling The First World, in the Third

simoncito writes "Ever wondered where that old useless printer ended up? BBC has a photo report about chinese villagers building ramshackle systems out of used and discarded first world computer parts. The effects on their surroundings are drastic - I never knew hardware was so poisonous." Worth a look if you aren't desensitized to suffering. Anyone know the proper way to dispose of a monitor?

Comments

Proper way to dispose of a monitor...

[KirkH]

I always thought old monitors were supposed to sit around in your attic. Same goes for old printers.

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor...

[Jucius Maximus]

"I always thought old monitors were supposed to sit around in your attic."

1. If you can't use the monitor, then first look into local schools. I know that in Ontario, Canada, you can get a tax credit for donating used computer equipment to schools. My high school (according to my brother who still goes there) has about 4 computer labs for ~P100-266 machines from this program which still word process and surf fairly nicely.

2. If the monitor is broken and the cost of repair is more than a comprable new monitor, then there will be specialised safe disposal facilities at must garbage dumps. Chances are you have to drive there and drop it off yourself, but it's worth it in preventing the Lead, Arsenic, etc from getting into the water.

3. When getting a new CRT montior, make sure it conforms to at least TCO99 (there is a sticker) because these have environmentally conscious amounts of harmful chemicals in them, but should still be disposed of safely in the end.

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor...

[Deagol]

If I remember... once a year the EE department at Purdue would toss CRTs from the top of a parking garage. Made for interesting pictures. Don't know if the tradition is still around, but it was kinda amusing.

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor...

[coryboehne]

You know, that really makes me wonder what kind of toxins I'm storing, I mean I really do probably have nearly two tons of old hardware (no I'm not kidding, and it's mostly significant peices, trs-80's, wangs, ps2 (personal system2 not play station 2), apple IIe, etc.) I like to collect this old junk because I can then go plug one in fire it up and transport myself back to the "good ol days" when a mouse ran on the floor, and a computer system weighed in at about 200+lbs with a printer. So I wonder what kind of toxins they hold? Surely nothing to worry about if I'm not trying to extract the precious metals from them right?

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor...

[Nogami_Saeko]

Argh, I have moderator points, but I must post ;P

We need a new generation of "tech-hicks" who can leave old computer junk on their lawns instead of broken-down old cars.

"That there is mah old Commodore 64! She don look like much, but she used to play a wikkid game o MULE"

(from the house) "Billy-Bob! Yer new 200gig-o-bite hard disk just come from Fedex!"

"DAMN WOMAN, go install mah raid server willya? Donna forget to stripe drives NTFS. None o that fat32!"

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor...

[sean@thingsihate.org]

The problem with all that is that it takes effort. I'm sorry but for most people the money they save in a tax write off is not worth driving all around town looking for a school or dump that can safely take a monitor off your hands.

Good Will and other thrift stores won't take any more monitors. At least, the ones around here won't. They've already got too many.

It's kind of the same situation with recycling bottles and cans in California. I used to live in Oregon, where you can take your empty bottles and cans to any grocery store, any time day or night. Five cents for cans, ten cents for bottles.

Here in California, you have to take them to a designated recycling center, which is open about six hours a day on weekdays. And there's only one in the city I live in, all the way across town. And you can take a hundred cans back, and you won't get jack shit because the redemption value is so low in California. And they don't give you cash, either, they give you a certificate that you have to take to a nearby grocery store or something, stand in line there, and then they'll give you your 90 cents or whatever it is you've got.

I used to take my bottles and cans back out of a sense of duty. But I got sick of going down there on my lunch break (the only time I could go there when the recycling center is open) to find out that either

(A) The recycling center was closed for lunch, or closed on Tuesdays, or something like that.
or
(B) There was a long line of people returning bottles and cans, when it's my turn I get a certificate for 90 cents, which I then have to take to the grocery store next door and stand in line to claim.

I started throwing my bottles and cans away. I feel bad about it, but Jesus Christ it's like they went out of their way to make it invonvenient in this state. In some cities (San Francisco, Oakland, Berkeley, Sacramento) you can throw cans into the trash and rest assured that some homeless person will pick them out. But in the suburban white bread town I'm stuck in at the moment? No way. Those cans are going straight to the dump.

Same deal with monitors. They really ought to be recycled. So it'd be nice if it weren't such a pain in the ass to do so. I'd gladly support my tax dollars going toward recycling centers that took monitors and didn't completely suck. Or worked out a deal with grocery stores or someone else to handle it, like they do in Oregon.

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor...

[Jucius Maximus]

"(B) There was a long line of people returning bottles and cans, when it's my turn I get a certificate for 90 cents, which I then have to take to the grocery store next door and stand in line to claim."

I hear you ... you'd probably nullify that 90 cents in the gas useage and damage to the environment from the pollution from your car's internal combustion engine.

"Same deal with monitors. They really ought to be recycled. So it'd be nice if it weren't such a pain in the ass to do so."

This is actually done competently by the high school I went to ... they do plenty of advertising. Basically you have to fill out a single 1-page form that can be downloaded from the web, give the school a call and they send a specially designated crew of students to come with a truck and pick the units up and get the form from you. 'Easy - The way it should be.' Btw, that paperwork form is used for the tax rebate. (Did I just come up with AOL or apple's new slogan?)

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor...

[Barbarian]

There's a local computer shop in my city (Sector Computers, Calgary) that specializes in monitors, and they'll usually take your monitor for parts if it's not worth repairing. I bet most cities have some place like this.

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor...

[eufaula]

yeah, this usually works

http://destroypc.com/pchunt/page13.html

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor...

[markh1967]

1. If you can't use the monitor, then first look into local schools. I know that in Ontario, Canada, you can get a tax credit for donating used computer equipment to schools. My high school (according to my brother who still goes there) has about 4 computer labs for ~P100-266 machines from this program which still word process and surf fairly nicely.

I work for local government IT support and I'd like to add that, while schools will welcome decent old kit, please don't use them as a dumping ground for old junk.

I constantly have to remind schools that old, barely working, equipment will often cost more to repair than it would to replace. I've lost count of the number of times I've been asked whether a donated computer can be made to run their CDs only to find that it's a 486 or worse. As for the number of flickering, faint 14" monitors that are stacked in classroom cupboards the less said the better.

The bottom line is that, while schools can use old equipment, they really need stuff that can at least run their software. What they don't need is the cost of disposing of other people's junk garnered because they don't want to say 'no' to someone who means well.

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor...

[freeweed]

That's mah dad's shootin' monitor!

Oddly enough, I've actually done this with an old monitor an a .22 :)

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor...

[Decimal Dave]

There is a person in our town who actually is a sort of tech-hick. He claims to be a computer recycling service and gets paid to take old computers from schools and businesses. The hardware is then stuffed into his garage or tossed on to piles in his yard. My guess is that the city isn't aware of how toxic some of that stuff is, otherwise they would have sent in the hazardous material cleanup crew by now.

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor...

[antirename]

The proper way to dispose of a dead monitor is to put it out of it's misery with high velocity bullets, which allows you to get entertainment value even after it goes black and still. I have done this. The results weren't what expected; monitor implosions just aren't as dramatic as you're led to believe by the safety warnings. They also do a pretty good job of stopping bullets, which was also not expected. Although, if you live in the US and your monitor accidentally stops a bullet you will probably have a hard time finding a "green" way to dispose of it. Better to practice muzzle control :)

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor...

[antirename]

The real problem is that with the difference in labor and other costs between the US and China, any recycler is going to ship the dead monitors to China. Which would perpetuate the current problem the Chinese have with heavy metals and whatnot. It's still getting dumped, but not in your backyard. The Chinese government knows the deal, I'm sure. They were willing to put the trash in THEIR backyard, and western businesses dumped it there. This stuff comes in by the container full; it isn't being smuggled across the Chinese border on the backs of donkeys.

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor...

[Jucius Maximus]

WOW! In my area, all the schools are burgeoning at the seams, and have been for as long as I can remember. Lots of companies are moving their operations from Toronto and Mississauga to where the cost of living (and therefore the cost of salaries) is lower. Thousands and thousands of new homes have gone up in the last 2 years.

I have switched schools twice because of it. Half of my sister's friends are now going to a new school that is unrelated to my school-hopping.

I find the concept of an under-filled school to be amazing!

I've never had to put a deposit on a textbook and we were always allowed to take them home and there were always enough except for those english reading books. With the new curriculum, though, the teachers know they're not gonna get new books anytime soon so you get a heavy fine for damaging one. My friend's sister put a piece of paper on the book and wrote on the piece of paper. There was a $5 fine for that because of the imprint from the pen on the book.

Wow man, I did not know how precarious the situation was at underpopulated schools!

Taco, Google. Google, Taco.

[American AC in Paris]

Anyone know the proper way to dispose of a monitor?

Got thirty seconds?

Google has a few suggestions regarding monitor disposal.

Question: What is the opposite of investigative reporting?

The proper way to dispose of a copier ...

[slagdogg]

Two words ... Office Space.

Re:The proper way to dispose of a copier ...

[Jucius Maximus]

""Two words ... Office Space."

I actually did this once.

One time I was working as a co-op student technician at a university and there were a whole pile of really old non-working monitors and other boxen. I was given the task one day of disposing all of these in the dumpster, so I took them down on a cart and had a fun time dropkicking and lobbing them without fear of damanging something important. I actually grabbed one of the boxes out and tossed it in again just for fun.

This was a fun change from imaging hard drives, building machines, software development, etc.

Re:The proper way to dispose of a copier ...

[MsGeek]

Actually it's an HP laser fax. And yeah, when a HP Laserwriter runs out of paper, you get the now infamous "PC Load Letter" message. "Office Space" is a classic, man. One of the few DVDs I own.

Proper way to dispose of a monitor

[Jeffrey Baker]

The proper way to dispose of a working monitor is to give it to someone who needs one. The proper way to dispose of a non-working or obsolete monitor or television is to take it to a computer recycling center, who can safely crush the CRT and dispose of the toxic plastic and electronics.

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor

[Codifex Maximus]

Referbishing is also an option. Replace the damaged part and sell it again at a discount compared to new monitors.

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor

[Jeffrey Baker]

That has nothing to do with the statement of the problem. The problem statement is "how to dispose of a monitor". This implies that the monitor exists, was manufactured in the past, and is currently owned by some entity. So you have to get rid of it somehow, you can't just wish it hadn't been built that way. And as I said, it is much better to have the parts concentrated at a toxic waste center than to chuck it in the trash. CRT monitors are full of lead and other toxic chemicals, and it is also very difficult and dangerous to crush them. The job is best left to a dedicated facility. A recycling center can also reuse the glass for metal smelting operations.

The problem of waste electronics is already being addressed. CRTs are already less favored than LCDs. LCDs generate less waste because they contain less material, and do not use a giant leaded glass tube. They do not have high-voltage, high-current power supplies, and thus need less fireproofing. Further an LCD can be expected to last practically forever if the backlight can be replaced. That of course reduces waste tremendously.

Finally, there are movements afoot to phase out lead, mercuryt, cadmium, chromium, and other dangerous chemicals from electronics products. Lead-free soldering processes are already available, but not widely deployed. The EU has proposed to phase out these dangerous chemicals in electronics by January 2008. Other nations have similar proposals. Google for WEEE to find the EU proposal.

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor

[cr@ckwhore]

The proper way to dispose of a non-working or obsolete monitor or television is to take it to a computer recycling center, who can safely crush the CRT and dispose of the toxic plastic and electronics.

Ummm yeah, and how do you think this crap gets to china anyway? Thats right... our recycling centers sell the material to companies that "process" the material, and sell it to other companies in China.

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor

[sphealey]

The proper way to dispose of a non-working or obsolete monitor or television is to take it to a computer recycling center, who can safely crush the CRT and dispose of the toxic plastic and electronics.

Where does one find such recycling centers, pray tell? I assume we are discussing ones which are audited to certify that they actually recycle the stuff, not just hide it for a while and then send it to a landfill in Mexico.

The reason I ask is that the US Navy has a regulation that their ships must be scrapped following strict environmental standards. They do about 10 a year at a cost 20 times higher than the standard fee for ship disposal. Everyone else sends their ships to India where they are scrapped using methods that are tremendously damaging to the environment ("PCB contaminated oil? Burn it off").

sPh

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor

[R@Bastard]

I live in New York City. I had a monitor (non-working, beyond repair) to dispose of. I tried the following:

1. I called about 10 computer repair shops, asking them what to do, and if I could PAY them to dispose of it properly. No.

2. I called the City's garbage/recycling department to ask them what to do. They had no special information, and instructed me to put it out with the trash.

3. I called the local branch of the EPA, asking what to do, since I know that it contains toxic waste. They said that there were no special disposal method that I could do, but that it was technically illegal for me to throw it away. I asked her what I should do... she recommended that I just throw it away.

Yes, yes, I did do a Google search. This was 2 years ago, and there weren't any relevant results.

I hope this is better now.

It's a problem when someone like me, who spent about an hour trying to find the right thing to do, cannot find the right thing to do.

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor

[_ph1ux_]

whomever mod'd this as a troll should be shot in the head!

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor

[Tiroth]

Do you have any notion of how /expensive/ lead-free solders are?

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor

[Jeffrey Baker]

Yeah it's $20/lb retail. I use it for everything. Melts at 217C. I highly recommend it, if you build or repair electronics.

Re:Proper way to dispose of a monitor

[yakfacts]

LCDs produce a lot of waste during manufacturing. While I have no numbers to back me up, I would suspect an LCD to consume as many or more resources to produce than a CRT of the same size. There is a high defect rate on the screens, and LCD screens are manufactured in a manner similar to semiconductors which is a very nasty process. Yes, the lead is a problem in the CRT. But the LCD backlight does use a high-voltage power supply and I have yet to see one that can be replaced for less than the cost of a new monitor.

Also, most people replace CRTs that still work fine, but are just too old, too low-resolution, or "are not cool looking".

I take the other path; I buy a very nice CRT and keep it as long as I can; my main CRT is going on six years old now. Perhaps one day LCD screens will be just as good and I can use them. But AFAIK they are not any more "environmentally friendly".

Monitor Disposal..

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Anyone know the proper way to dispose of a monitor."

Ya'll should do what we do in Kansas. Whenever a TV stops working, we place the new one on top of the old one.

If you have too many of them there telly visions, you can place them in your front yard. Move them around the yard enough, and you'll never have to mow it!

Re:Monitor Disposal..

[unicron]

Yeah, the thing to also remember is to put a blanket over the old TV. What's really nice is if the sound still works on the old TVs, so once you have like 2 or 3 TVs under the blanket, house guests will go "My god, that 13inch TV has better sound than my 52" HDTV!"

Re:Monitor Disposal..

[Anonvmous Coward]

Wow.. I never thought about putting a blanket over the one that doesn't work. Weeeeeell doggie, that's a good idea! Now I can stop reaching for the wrong TV. Heck, now I can make a fancy coffee table for ma. I'd make it into an ironin board, but I'd need one more TV so she'd have a place for her spitcup.

Re:Monitor Disposal..

[n-baxley]

Still in Kansas myself, and happy to report a high, relatively, concentration of geeks here.

Re:Monitor Disposal..

[NanoGator]

"I'd make it into an ironin board, but I'd need one more TV so she'd have a place for her spitcup."

Well, I just discovered my monitor doesn't make a very good spitcup. At least I get a pretty rainbow.

Re:Monitor Disposal..

[donglekey]

I'll chime in with a bit of relevance. Being formerly from Topeka, Kansas (and an old school lightwave animator to boot) I would say that people's perception of Kansas is way off most of the time. I know alot of geeks, especially because of KU, Newtek trails, and KC. Also, there is nothing to do in Kansas, but so much to do with the internet and computers so I think it makes alot of sense. I just moved from Kansas and now am in Vancouver (VFS baby) and people's idea of Kansas is all about hicks and farmers and accents and tornados. Its kind of shame, but oh well.

The shipbreakers

[sirdude]

There's also an interesting article here which has been previously mentioned on Slashdot, that might be worth a read. Cheers.

Re:The shipbreakers

[Embedded Geek]

sirDude: D'ho!! You beat my long winded post. Good catch.

Dispose of it.

[laserjet]

For those who ask silly questions like, "Does anyone know how to dispose of a monitor?"

All you have to do is make a little effort. If you call your local trash people, they almost always have a way to handle waste computer stuff, waste oil, etc. Unless you live in a small town or something.

It wasn't environmentally sound in anyway, but the last monitor I "disposed of" was several years ago. I took it out into the desert and blew it to pieces with a shotgun and a pistol. I hope the environment forgives me.

Re:Dispose of it.

[laserjet]

It is just annoying when people ask questions like that. Because WE as slashdot readers can not tell a specific person how to dispose of their junk. It is all local. I can only tell someone how to get rid of their junk in my area.

There is a lot of lead in monitors, kids, so don't eat them.

Monitor disposal...

[siphoncolder]

I've been looking at that problem for a few months now. I have an old monitor, but I know damn well that you can't just kick it to the curb - the trashmen won't take it since there's the possibility of explosion/implosion, which is quite a safety concern. (After all, CRT's are just a big vaccuum - breaking that seal recklessly (i.e. piercing it) can cause some damage. Not to mention the possibility for electrocution via the capacitors or even a fire.)

Usually, you can take your monitor to an appropriate dealer or electronics shop, where trained & certified technicians can safely deactivate, disassemble & dispose of the monitor for you. This is what I'm looking for right now.

Now that i have a new LCD, I wonder if they're trash-safe - I haven't researched if there's any hazards concerning say, the liquid in the display, or any other chemicals.

Re:Monitor disposal...

[Jucius Maximus]

"Usually, you can take your monitor to an appropriate dealer or electronics shop, where trained & certified technicians can safely deactivate, disassemble & dispose of the monitor for you. This is what I'm looking for right now."

I'm sure there are public schools in your area that would be ABSOLUTELY THRILLED to take it off your hands, and possibly issue a tax credit in the process.

No

[DAldredge]

Don't you know, it is our (The USA's) fault. Everything bad that happens in the world is our fault and everthing good that happens happens because we failed to stop the good from happening.

For those with no sense of humor, this is a joke

Where's the supply coming from?

[ianscot]

So my question is, where do these piles of hardware come from? Specifically, I mean -- At what point in the chain do we hand everything off to a central supplier who sells it out of the country? Who are the companies? My local hazardous waste place is how far removed from 13-year-olds dipping circuit boards in tin and lead to "make them look new"?

NPR did a story a while back about infectious diseases being shipped worldwide at new speeds because of container ships full of old tires. (Mosquitoes bred in water collecting in the tires, and the container ship system meant transport speeds were far greater.) Made you really think -- our waste is a desirable commodity somewhere? Desirable enough that people will pay good rates to ship old tires to the third world? The unintended consequence of viral transmission was pretty nasty.

Re:Where's the supply coming from?

[pgrote]

The third world is called the third world for good reason. Their governments suck. Sucks to be their citizens, but that's the way it is.

Just look at the godawful mess in Africa. You'd think the continent where man grew from would be able to get it right after a few thousand years.

Re:Where's the supply coming from?

[ianscot]

Fine, but I'm not asking whether the government of China is willing to employ slave labor -- yes, they are -- or to pollute at levels we haven't been able to imagine for at least forty glorious, enlightened years. (Oh, how grand we are, we who live forty years in the future.)

I'm asking: what companies in the first world are making the handoff? Where's the point in our system where we say, "We've got this big hazardous waste problem here, but hey, we'll turn it into a little profit -- it's China's problem now."

I ask this because I'm curious what those companies do -- how they do it, what their other economic interests are -- not because I'm trying to be ideological about it.

Shipped there?

[TonyZahn]

I know there's supposed to be places in the US to deposit your used electronics for recycling (I know this has been mentioned here before...), are these places just shipping their stuff off to China?

How can you tell the difference between a "reputable" electronics recycler and someone whose contributing to the poisining of people who are all ready in a bad position?

I know I've gone through my share (or more than my share) of electronics in my day, and I'm afraid that a lot of it has just made it's way to the landfill. With computers becoming obsolete at the rate they do, how can I get rid of this stuff without wasting the reusable metals or poisoning complete strangers?

Re:old news

[Anonvmous Coward]

"This has been covered and photographed long ago... by many other news organizations... what's different now?"

The problem isn't the difference, it's the lack of difference. The problem's still around.

Expected response

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot has an amazing following. If an article were to run describing live babies being lowered into boiling oil for money, at least 30% of the talkbacks would be dimwitted rationalizations about how it's somehow ok because after all there's a market for it. The next 30% would be facetious comments serving the function of nervous, cathartic laughter. The remaining percentage is our faint hope for improvement.

Re:boosheet.

[dokutake]

Methinks this stems from the good old "the monitor is the computer misconception.

Re:Taco, Google. Google, Taco.

[laserjet]

Question: What is the opposite of investigative reporting?

Answer: Slashdot.

best way to get rid of computer equip

[room101]

I know how to do this, I have been doing this for so long, I can't believe you guys are still searching for the right way.

I have it.

I box it up and put it in my guest room closet. Problem solved.

We've already seen this story. Twice!

[Dixie_Flatline]

Here and here. I don't really expect CmdrTaco to remember every story that's ever gone up, but that took me about 10 seconds of searching in the Older Stuff section.

LCDs any better?

[qslack]

Are LCDs any easier to dispose cleanly? I am just curious because everything here is talking about CRTs.

TechTV.

[13Echo]

Tech TV ran a great program on this some time ago.

Check it out here.

A co-worker of mine has a friend in China, and it is something that he really takes seriously. He actually wrote an article in our IT newsletter a few months ago, talking about the waste that we dump into Asia. All sorts of countries are doing this. Companies are paying to dump this junk off to the cheapest landfill. It is sick. It is something that we need to take seriously. Large ships take this stuff to Asia every day.

I also read that there are start-up companies that are trying to take this stuff and dismantle it properly. Recycling this stuff, and appropriately preventing serious toxic hazards.

The first way to start is simple... Don't throw this stuff into the trash. Landfills are becoming full of this stuff. Donate working computer stuff, or try to find a suitable recycling facility. It is important to realize that this can be done with all electronics.

ComputerRecycle.com.

Re:TechTV.

[Nogami_Saeko]

I suppose this stuff sorta comes round-trip then huh? I mean, most of the electronics in my house are MADE in Asia as well...

IMHO, given the documentaries I've seen about the production and labor practises used in high-tech, textile, and plain-old consumer products manufacturing in Asia (specifically China), recycling old computers is the least of their concerns.

The reason countries like China can build consumer products so cheaply is the lack (or non-existance) of environmental protection and labor standards.

Sure, I think recycling is good whenever possible, and I recycle in my house. But to say that China's problem is caused by first-world consumers - I have a problem with that.

I don't have much sympathy for people and governments that do it to themselves in the name of profits...

Re:TechTV.

[elmegil]

Do you really think the people of China have any say in this? This is a case of some people in China saying "yah, it's ok if you screw those people over there in China and pay me for the priveledge."

Re:TechTV.

[13Echo]

I didn't say that this was caused by first world consumers (as the title of the article might suggest). My suggestions were mostly about eliminating the toxic waste from your own landfills, regardless of where you live.

This waste that is getting dumped into China is normally done by independent companies. I don't really think that it is my fault, your fault, or the next person's fault. But we *all* need to do something about this. We all contribute to the trash. It doesn't help that some nasty companies are making it worse, by turning villages into cesspools. These are villages where the people have absolutely no say in the matter. Someone is getting paid to dump it there... Normally, it is being done illegally.

Re:TechTV.

[TGK]

Ok, someone has to play the devil's advocate here so I guess I'll do it.

Who are we to look down on them? Ok, so China is building its economy by dismanteling computer parts in environmentaly hazerdous ways which are seriously messing with their children's health.

How do you think the US became the economic hegemon it was in the 1940s? It wasn't by recycling or giving a rats ass about child wellfare. It was by employing 8 year old imigrant children in factories for 12 hours a day, paying them slaves wages (or something close) and generaly making life hell for a bunch of people.

Of course now we've forgotton all that. Now we've gotten past our past and we want other States to industrialize and become economicly powerfull according to our ideals and environmental standards. The problem is those ideals and standards are a product of our economic superiority.

You can not expect States like China, India, Vietnam, most of South/Central America etc to pull themselves up by their bootstraps without resorting to the same general horrors that we did. I'm not saying its not possible, just that it's unrealistic.

Look at the photographs of the United States from the early 1900s and late 1800s. It wasn't a pretty place to live. We were a horrid nasty vile little cesspool and from that we have created a fairly impressive society.

So China is playing with fire. They will get burned, just like we did. They will kill their children, just like we did. And maybe someday they to can join the ranks of the post-industrial world. Until then we have to let them do what they can. No one told the US that it wasn't ok to commit our attrocities. Why are we any different?

Re:TechTV.

[sean@thingsihate.org]

For the love of God.

You said it yourself. "Companies are paying to dump junk..."

That's right. They're paying. Which means someone in China is accepting money to allow it. It's not as though IBM flies around with a cargo jet full of garbage and pulls the lever to dump it all out when they get to China.

"Large ships take this stuff to Asia every day."

Well maybe when they get to Asia, Asia should say "Go home" as opposed to "Give us the money."

Did it ever cross your friend's mind that maybe the Chinese, who are allowing this, are the ones he should be talking to first?

Re:TechTV.

[alexjohns]

You got a '+5 Insightful' - bravo. I do think you have a good point, but... (you knew there was going to be a but, right?)

In 1900, there was no one around to tell us not to exploit children. We (the US) did it. Britain did it. The rest of Europe did it. (That is, as far as I know. I don't know the exact history of every country over there, but I believe I'm correct enough.)

Here we are, 100 years later and we've grown up. Our mores are changing every day. As a society, we are 'evolving'. It used to be that we thought nothing of driving whole species extinct. Nowadays, that thought is abhorrent to most of us. Vegetarianism. Recycling. Etc.

So, why can't we help other countries skip the step of exploiting children? Lots of people excoriate the US for interfering in other countries' internal matters. Still, if we've learned better, can't we help out?

My 4-year old gets mad at me when I make him go to bed. That doesn't mean I'm not right to make him do that. If this dumping of old computers is bad (and I think we can all agree it's bad), then why not get a whole bunch of people up in arms about it and ban the exporting of dangerous chemicals to countries that don't handle it properly? Yes, we already have 7000 other things that we need to get up in arms about. Well, shit. That's what comes with being a parent. It's a horribly difficult and thankless job but apparently we're the only ones willing to do it.

There's all kinds of things we have to teach other countries: Judicial systems, building codes, nutrition, medicine. The list goes on and on. Even though most of what we export is pop music, movies, and MS Windows, that doesn't mean we can't try to put some good stuff in there, too.

The next time your dad introduces you to the bigshot CEO of some computer exporting or shipping firm, show him those pictures and then ask your dad why he's friends with someone who helps cause stuff like that. The next time your local politico is glad-handing his way around the Moose Lodge, try to get a plug in for not throwing our waste in our neighbors' yards.

You never know. It might work.

Re:TechTV.

[BluedemonX]

RE: There's all kinds of things we have to teach other countries: Judicial systems,

Got that right. In this country, murderers and rapists get off scot free on technicalities or enjoy better health care and conditions in jail than a lot of people have outside it.

In China, they just execute the bastards.

Re:Possible Human Carcenogen

[laserjet]

Toner is pretty much just plastic. Just mashed up into a plastic dust.

I am also in favor of shipping all our garbage into space. I will rely on huge technology advancements in the future to help clean it all up.

Hello and we think CHINA cares?

[Razzious]

I mean come on the country that gives about as many civil rights to its people as Bill Gates distributes Linux.

These people would have lived CRAP lives regardless of the horrible evil of computer waste products there. It must not be too severe or the Chinese government would be fast to stop it. We all know they could do so if they wanted to. However it provides these people with some form of income and keeps them out of the hair of the rest of the country.

I have traveled the world and the things being condemned here amount to nothing in comparison to what others suffer through elsewhere. Hell I would gie money to the Christian Childrens Fund before thinking twice about if my toner cartridge was going to be salvaged in China. And while on TONER and its evils...SWEET N LOW is a cancerous agent too...as is BBQ's food.

Re:Hello and we think CHINA cares?

[unicron]

I completely agree. As Americans, our perspectives are so screwed up when it comes to poverty and homelessness, especially with how it relates to charity. It disgust me how their are people in this country that watch those "Please help save a child in Bongo-Bongo" or wherever commercials and feel sad and donate 20 bucks to little Fellipe's shoe fund. These are the same people that actually see a homeless kid the next day and think "little fucker better not touch my Benz, I just had that shit detailed".

Re:Taco, Google. Google, Taco.

[per unit analyzer]

I looked through some of the links that google returned and I was happy to find a few places that will "process" your monitor. However, what concerns me is that none of them outlined how they "process" your monitor. How can I be sure that "process" isn't a euphemism for "pack into a shipping container headed for China?" Anyone know of a link to a place that would definitely handle the hazardous waste in a proper manner? Or would you have to telephone/email some of these outfits and interrogate them to make sure?

--z

Re:I am so glad ...

[ImaLamer]

If there were a natural disaster in China or elsewhere would you simply say: "Oh well, they aren't 'mericans!"

Your view on human life really makes me ashamed of being a fellow countrymen of yours.

Plus you obviously don't realize the situation in China. I don't think you can just get up and leave China if you'd like. You don't wake up and say "I think I'm going to America to start a new life!"

But this issue has been brought up before on slashdot. "last time I looked China wasn't the 51st state" Then why should we have a right to dump our waste there. Not In My Back Yard! But to make it worse... when the kids play in the dump you think they deserve it.

Is it America's fault? I don't really know the _truth_, yet I don't see why I shouldn't care about my fellow man either way.

recycling options

[phatphat]

HP offers product end-of-life return programs for HP and other manufacturers' hardware in a number of geographic areas. The terms and availability of these programs vary by geography because of differences in regulatory requirements and local customer demand. Click here for info.

And???

[Pedrito]

These workers are sorting plastic by heating it with a cigarette lighter and sniffing the fumes. They complained of headaches.

Okay, first of all, is the First World supposed to have a monopoly on common sense?

I agree, this is all tragic, but this is hardly the fault of the First World. We're not forcing China to take our old computer parts. They have a government that clearly doesn't care about the people. Unfortunately the only way this is ever going to change in China is for them to have a revolution.

It would be nice if we could do it for them, but the fact is, we can't. Sometimes people must be responsible for their own goverment. We can't realistically overthrow China without serious repercussions. If the people overthrow the government though, I don't think a whole lot of countries are going to be too upset about it.

So, yeah, I'm sorry this is happening, but eventually, it's going to be one thing too many and the people are going to revolt. There's not a whole lot anyone outside of China can do until then. They have to come to terms with the fact that their government doesn't protect them or even care about them.

Re:And???

[Pedrito]

Okay, first of all, the Chinese are BUYING this stuff. We're not shoving it down their throats. Clearly, THEY WANT IT! We don't. Is it our fault they're screwing up their country by taking it? Do we hold some sort of moral high ground that we ought to tell them they can't buy stuff from us, even if we don't want it?

I mean, sure, we won't sell them stuff that will endanger us. Nuclear arms, etc. But shit, if they want to buy our garbage, more power to them. We sure don't want it. When it gets to the point that nobody else wants it, and we're stuck with disposing of it, we'll probably do it in a safer manner (though not necessarily).

You act like the First World countries are so concerned about the environment. Go rent Erin Brockovich sometime and get an idea of how careful we are with our own groundwater.

Re:And???

[Pedrito]

If anything, China's corrupt government means that it is even more so _our_ responsibility to keep the world clean and stop people from harming themselves.

Since when is it "our" responsibility to keep the Earth clean. I missed that memo. Granted, I think we ought to keep our share of it clean, I like to keep my neighborhood clean. Does that mean I have the responsibility or even the right to come clean up yours?

I have an idea, why don't we, as the United States, simply take over the world and impose our our rules as we see fit on all the people of the world? I mean, it's "our" responsibility to make sure they don't screw up anything. Might as well live up to "our" responsibility.

I feel bad some days.

[TibbonZero]

This is going to sound really odd, but I sincerly feel bad some days for the fact that I tread so heavily on the earth (not weight morons, enviormentally).

I feel bad about the fact that I generate trash with everything I do. I want to go completely paperless, because I don't like the idea of killing the rainforest for paper. I know that some cutting in forests is actually good for the forest, but few loggers do that.
Even if I didn't use paper, I still get things in the mail, I have packaging, etc...
My computers, my music equipment, my house, my car (esp my car), generate waste.
Even the food I eat, I consider waste. I want to be a vegitarian some days, just because of enviormental impact of hog farms, overfishing, etc... I would like to be in touch with the earth more- kinda of like how you think of indians (opps, native americans), of being.
You may ask, well why don't you. It's because I can't. I am in college. I live in Boston (well in 6 days I do). I can't plant myself a garden. I can't rid myself of paper. I can't use solar/wind/geothermal power in my apartment. I know that there are little things that I can do, and I do those, but it feels small in comparison. Well, at least I won't have my car in Boston, so the T should save some energy somewhere. Does anyone else feel bad about their impact on the enviorment? I am not an activist, just a concerned person. Even if something actually doesn't 'impact' something drastically, I still feel bad for that disruption.

Re:I feel bad some days.

[Razzious]

Dude,

Get yourself pulled up by your boot straps. HUMANITY and all we are ARE JUST AS MUCH A PART OF NATURE as that tree!

WAKE UP!!! This world is about ALL OF IT not some damn tree or piece of paper etc. Use the earth responsibly and die someday to refertilize it!

Re:I feel bad some days.

[Nogami_Saeko]

I find it rather funny when people say that "humans are destroying the world".

Nothing we could possibly do would destroy the world... It could kill us, and all life on the planet off, but nature would eventually recover and move on.

Are we so important that the universe couldn't get along without us? I rather doubt it.

Re:I feel bad some days.

[sheriff_p]

Books containing every- day ways to save the planet might of use to you...

Re:I feel bad some days.

[Razzious]

Normally I do not feed trolls, HOWEVER!!! You will be the exception!

Being of an OPEN MIND, I decided to go take your little quiz. I have to sit here and LAUGH at you! NOT ONLY is your current of 33 ACRES HIGHER than the national average (showing you are an absolute KILLER of our precious environment). The 14 you will go to is MORE than my current 12!!!

So rather than be an asshole and tell me what I know and do not know. Get off your holier than thou horse!

Re:I feel bad some days.

[TibbonZero]

Go to an actual "hog farm" and assess the environmental impact.

Actually in North Carolina, the Hog Farms do end up producing a large problem when any flooding occurs. Check out an article on Salon here about it. .
Asides from that, I think you are right to a large degree. And it's kinda what I am concerned with. The thing is that no matter what we do, the way we live dictates that we spend vast amounts of energy and pollute a ton.
Ok, I realized that the trees aren't cut from the rain forest for paper (but they are cut I guess for farming?), so that's not a direct impact there. However, the paper mills put off some awful pollution. Now they are getting getting better, but still, everything we do, even recycling, oddly enough is harmful to the enviorment.
Well I guess the worst thing that could happen is that we destroy ourselves, and the planet rebuilds (which it would, and in some sick way, that's kinda comforting).
Thanks for the advice though, it's good! :)

Re:I feel bad some days.

[swillden]

Clearly from your posts, Mr. Razzbuten, you either are unaware of the global effect or think it your god given right to use and pollute natural resources at a rate above and beyond what the earth itself can sustain.

Be precise, please. It's not a question of what the earth can sustain, because the earth can deal with anything short of a planet-busting asteroid, it's a question of whether or not the earth can continue to support us in the style we're accustomed to. We could make such a horrid mess of the environment that it killed us all, but nature would recover in a blink of a geological eye.

Besides, appeals to "save the earth" simply don't mean anything to large numbers of people. Instead, try pointing out that we need to make sure we don't create a hellhole that future humans won't want to live in.

Why do you think MS just sends you another mouse?

[piku]

Why else would Microsoft just send you a replacement mouse with no hassle, and without you sending them your "broken" one back? It's cheaper for them to take the hit with the mouse (or whatever) than for them to dispose of all the returned mice, since they are considered hazardous.

(everything in this post is from memory, which means it may not be 100% correct)

Re:But is is his Job.

[Pii]

We old timers have much to complain about...

The best topic in weeks had to be the Haiku thread.

Re:But is is his Job.

[Anonvmous Coward]

"But it is his (CmdrTaco's) job. He runs the blasted site and he posted the article. "

Where can I read CmdrTaco's Job Description? Why's it such a big friggin deal? "Oh no! A story was posted twice within the last 90 days! We mighta missed a story about how somebody is using Linux!"

Here's Info on IBM's Recycling Service

[Obsequious]

Short version is that you pay IBM $30, and you can stuff a box (of a certain size) with as much hardware as will fit, and ship it back to IBM via UPS. IBM will then refurbish the stuff and donate it to charity, or will recycle it.


http://www.ibm.com/ibm/environment/products/pcrs er vice.shtml

Re:Here's Info on IBM's Recycling Service

[fishbowl]

"...or will recycle it."

Right... They ship it to a recycling center who
ships it guess where?

Re:Here's Info on IBM's Recycling Service

[hondo77]

IBM says that the PCs are sent to Envirocycle, which claims on its home page that it "provides a complete closed loop recycling."

Re:Here's Info on IBM's Recycling Service

[Pyrosz]

Or, Ship it to me! I only charge $20 and although I prefer working parts I will take just about anything related to electronics of some sort.

Don't be stupid

[cr@ckwhore]

Anyone know the proper way to dispose of a monitor?

Now thats the dumbest thing I've heard in a while. How do you think those monitors got to china anyway? People improperly dumping them in the woods, and then the monitors get up and walk to china? C'mon!

These montors and other computer junk gets sent to china because its collected properly here in the US at our transfer stations and recycling facilities. This stuff is "recycled", just like scrap metals, plastics, and paper. "Recycling" means that its collected, and sold en mass to bigger companies willing to buy it. Then, those companies sell it to bigger companies, and so on. Apparently, the end of the chain is China, and I'm fine with that.

Its like we're shipping our computer crap over there and forcing it on them. Its bought by companies over there, and shipped. Those companies employ people to process the material. Its not my fault that they don't use respirators! For crying out loud... there's a reason why we're the #1 industrialized nation, and they're a "3rd world" nation, and its not because we've spend hundreds of years feeling guilty for other nations.

Re:Don't be stupid

[cr@ckwhore]

correction... 3rd paragraph... "Its NOT like we're shipping ..."

Re:Don't be stupid

[renard]

For crying out loud... there's a reason why we're the #1 industrialized nation, and they're a "3rd world" nation, and its not because we've spend hundreds of years feeling guilty for other nations.

Hey, good point. While you're at it, why not gloat over the fact that your accident of birth in the United States (I'm guessing) instead of, say, Thailand means that you have the money and the power to purchase the virginity of a 13-year old in Bangkok?

Seriously though: think about it. Capital is no substitute for morality, and just because the "market will bear" your exploitation of other human beings doesn't mean you have the right.

-Renard

Re:Don't be stupid

[Giant Killer]

I give you two days hacking out a living in this village before you recant that amazingly ignorant statement.

These people have the choice to either destroy their village and make a little money short term and destroy the land long term, or live in squalor, starving, for the short term.

You are right. These people do have a choice. Just like the 12 year old prostitutes in Thailand have a choice.

Open your eyes, get outside your own little world for just a little while. See things from another point of view.

Better yet, go to China. There are problems like this all over the place.

I don't know who modded your comment up. Slashdot needs a "-1: Ignorant"

Re:Don't be stupid

[cr@ckwhore]

You don't make sense. I've traveled, and what is happening in China is not my fault. Any society of people have the choice to do things as they wish. If China wanted, they could make money and NOT destroy their own environment. They are the powers over their own destiny.

Can you stay on subject? What do 12 year old prostitues in Thailand have to do with anything? Again, is it my fault that there are adolescent prostitutes in Thailand?

Re:Don't be stupid

[CommieLib]

Well, the reason why the U.S. is the #1 industrialized nation, and China is not, has little to do with the horrible working conditions described here. Perhaps I'm missing your sarcasm.

The problem here, as it always is, is poverty. The reason why people choose to work in horrible conditions is because they don't have a better alternative available, in their own estimation. Americans have a powerful tendency to project their own values and choices onto others without a realistic appraisal of the situation. For example, when we crack down on "third world" sweatshops (in itself a slightly racist term, IMHO), net effect is that all these children who were working in horrible conditions are fired. Of course we would prefer that the children be going to school, or just about anything more healthy for a child than working. But if nothing more attractive is available, these people migrate to a less desirable, and less visible means of supporting themselves.

In this country, we've decided that some things are not to be held open as options, no matter how horrible the alternative. I tend to say that what I see in this photo article should be stopped, but I do wonder if I'm not assuming options that would be available here are available there, when that's not necessarily true.

Re:Don't be stupid

[st0rmshad0w]

So you missed the news about the humongous cloud of pollution emminating from China that will eventually pass over the rest of the planet.

Nice.

Earth = Closed system.

More toxics in China (or wherever) means more toxics on Earth. You know, remember Earth? Its where you keep your stuff.

Re:Don't be stupid

[Kintanon]

What I am saying is that people have problems that are inadvertantly created by our society, of which you and I are both a part. If either of us owns computer hardware of any kind, then we are partly to blame for these conditions.

Ummm, no. The US has very very little influence on how China develops. We aren't hindering their development and we aren't helping it. They have a HUGE country filled with natural resources. They have a corrupt government and a bunch of people. None of those have been caused by the US, in fact, China has been that way since before the US existed. We aren't creating problems for China, they have their own problems that have nothing to do with us.

Kintanon

Re:Don't be stupid

[Buck2]

Hey, good point. While you're at it, why not gloat over the fact that your accident of birth in the United States (I'm guessing) instead of, say, Thailand means that you have the money and the power to purchase the virginity of a 13-year old in Bangkok?

Sweet, huh?

Re:Don't be stupid

[namespan]

You don't have a direct line of responsibility for what's happening in China, that's true. There's a need to dispose of old electronics. Some entities have decided they'll meet that need at a price. Others have decided they'll do it for cheaper (or pay) and try to make a profit on the materials.

The problem is: some of these disposing entities will do so as responsibly as possible. Some of these entities won't... they'll cut costs by using poorly informed labor and letting them come in contact with hazards, and also by letting hazardous materials go into the environment.

It's tempting for first world organization to patronize the later irresponsible disposal entities because they're cheaper -- because they externalize costs onto a commons. But by patronizing them, the continuing poisoning of individuals and environment is essentially encouraged, because that's their business model.

It's true that Chinese society could end the issue right now by making the decision on their own. But first world organizations can also stop it by choosing to deal only with responsible recyclers -- ones who don't push costs onto the commons which could eventually come back to bite us anyway. Moral issues aside.

Whether or not YOU personally can do anything has more to do with your ability to influence disposal habits and choose responsible disposal alternatives in as informed and wise manner as possible.

Re:Don't be stupid

[Artifex]

Of course we would prefer that the children be going to school, or just about anything more healthy for a child than working. But if nothing more attractive is available, these people migrate to a less desirable, and less visible means of supporting themselves.

This is an excellent point, and one that needs to be repeated until people finally get it.

Yes, it's horrible that these children get exploited, and work til their fingers bleed in maquiladoras for 15 cents a day (or whatever), etc. But it's their economic circumstances that's forcing them to work, not some factory owners. They're working because it's necessary for their families to get by. You cut them off without an alternative source of income, and it's not like the family can get welfare, or WIC, or any other benefits we assume poor people get because they exist in the U.S. They end up more desperate than before, and will likely starve if they don't become criminals or prostitutes, etc.

We should certainly feel bad about those places existing, but unless we're also ready to help the children ourselves, with adequate training and job opportunities for their parents so they can improve their economic situation, we're doing them more harm than good.

P.S. If you want to read a great book on the history of children and work in the U.S., look for Pricing the Priceless Child : The Changing Social Value of Children in your local public library or bookstore. It's useful when thinking about how China might resolve this issue to look at our own history.

Re:USA's fault

[Radical_Dreamer]

this was happening far before president bush...

This is wrong...

[Chagatai]

"The workers are sorting plastic by heating it with a cigarette lighter and sniffing the fumes..."

Ah, yes, the high-tech China of the future. I also hear they test power cables by licking them to see if they feel a current and checking CD-ROM drives to see if they spin by placing them against their groins and seeing if they vibrate too much.

Huh? Asbestos is not a carcinogentic material?

[Pii]

Wait a minute...

This is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that Asbestos is not cancer causing.

Is that true? Anyone?

Cancer me this.

[MisterSquid]

Sure, saying "asbestos causes cancer" is FUD, if by FUD you mean "Fear," "Uncertainty," and "Doubt".

In this case, however, FUD does not mean "unverifiable myth."

If you're curious about the level of toxicity of asbestos, try going here.

The upshot of that site reads as follows:

Asbestos is well recognized as a carcinogen. It causes lung cancer, mesothelioma, and other cancers. The people at highest risk are those with very heavy exposure, usually over many years on the job. Smoking acts together with asbestos to greatly increase the risk of lung cancer. While asbestos use is much less common now than it was years ago, there is still a potential for exposure in older buildings and products.

Furthermore, many kinds of toner are listed as possible human carcinogens. One of the reasons for this may be that conclusive evidence has not yet been gathered (read: powerful lobby to defund government studies).

The first 5 pages of this Google search yields results you might find handy.

Ship Wrecking

[Embedded Geek]

[rant]

Alang is a small stretch of beach along the coast of India where a surprising number of ships are eventually scrapped. Instead of a dry dock, the ships are rammed full speed into the oily beach, then are picked over by workers for scrap. There are 35,000 men ripping apart the things with hammers and sledges. The welders use oxygen and cooking propane, the most skilled of them getting the choice assignment of ventilating fuel tanks to get rid of the fumes (yes, the welders ventilate the explosive fumes). The place is a filthy mess of pollution and there's an estimated fatality a day. By all estimates, it's basically Hell on Earth.

I read about this in an article in the Atlantic Monthly (Aug 2000). The piece detailed the horrible conditions, the economic motivation (wrecking a ship filled with toxic waste is an expensive proposition here in the West), and the efforts of enviromental groups to put a stop to it. But the real eye opener was the reaction of the Indians.

Many were pissed that the industrialized world wanted to stop the wrecking and considered such efforts hypocritical. They are not stupid and they know the risks they're facing. They are more than willing to take those risks for steady, reliable income. Many of them point to the pollution and conditions in Dehli that are worse than at Alang. They laugh at what concerns Greenpeace in their tidy offices in London and Holland.

Do I think it's wrong to ship toxic waste to these countries instead of taking care of it at home? Yes. Should I condemn people who are not really that much different from Americans during the Depression from trying to get by? No. These things are never black and white.

[/rant]

PS: I have heard that some regulation has come to Alang and other wrecking operations of late, so my Atlantic Monthly article is likely out of date. Apologies in advance. Also, I found two stories online about the issue: in Wired and The Baltimore Sun. I have not read them all the way through, though, and highly recommend the dead tree version of the Monthly piece if you can find it.

Re:Ship Wrecking

[Embedded Geek]

D'ho! Kudos to SirDude for catching this first. Also for finding the online version of the Atlantic piece.

Re:Ship Wrecking

[tweek]

Thank you for pointing this out.

In the minds of the U.S and rest of the world, having children make those shoes you wear is a horrible thing.

No look at things from the perspective of those children. They have an income to help thier families. They actually have gainful (abeit shitty in my eyes) employement.

Sure they don't make as much as they would here but then again the scale of the conomy is different there.

Would you rather have a country of people who are 85% unemployeed or a country of people ,who while doing shit work as it were, ARE employeed and contributing to the local economy.

Or are you just pissed that the thuggish unions can't get a foot in the door and make money off it themselves?

Would you rather pay 4 times the price for that CPU you just bought because it couldn't be manufactured overseas?

The only thing that REALLY concerns me about this article is the fact that it's fucking up the environment the way it is. Then again farmers have been washing cow shit from barns into pupblic streams for years and they can't seem to understand why it's such a big deal.

Re:Ship Wrecking

[Embedded Geek]

If you're in the mood to get really depressed (and aren't we all :), dig up a copy of Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath. I never read it in school and grabbed a copy the other day at a used bookstore. I'm only halfway through it, but it makes you realize just what the Depression was like and how America would've been considered "third world" by today's standards. A very heavy read, but a great book. Depressing as Hell, though.

PS - It also has a lot to say about unions. I agree some of them have gone of the deep end, but on the whole the unions have done a great service. At the very least, they saved us from a second civil war during the Depression - union reforms got people just wages without turning them into a full fledged rebellion, "just" a range war.

Give it back to the manufacturer

[jjtime4sko]

Most reputable computer companies provide recycling services for their and other manufacturers' equipment.

Try HP Product Recycling Services

In the US, it costs $13-34, including shipping. There are cheaper solutions, but you risk having your monitor end up in somebody's backyard in China. HP at least operates 2 recycling plants in Roseville, CA, and Nashville, TN.

Oh my lord look!

[selectspec]

That kids not taking off the Dell label! He's putting it on! And doesn't that look like Austin...

Re:How to dispose of a monitor???

[Anonvmous Coward]

How would somebody who never caught that story get inspired to put 'monitor disposal' in the search form?

Geez, you guys act like you might have missed a story about how somebody installed Linux on a doorknob.

Are you a troll?

[GuyMannDude]

I can't tell if you're trolling or not but since I've seen a couple of comments here that seem to agree with your position, I feel the need to reply.

As for the enviornmental concerns, last time I looked China wasn't the 51st state. If their government can't control it then it's their problem not ours.

You're a little heartless, aren't you? "Hey, if it's not my fault, I don't wanna hear about it." These people are suffering. Doesn't that mean anything to you? And as far as the thought that environmental concerns outside of the US isn't our concern, what do you say about the chemicals that are being released into the atmosphere when they burn all that stuff? Toxins don't respect international boundaries.

Amazing how America can be portrayed as the bad guy all around the world.

I didn't see anything in the article specifically pointing the blame finger at the US. But it's worth noting that we are making this problem worse with our throw-away society. I would wager that the average American buys a new computer every 3-4 years. And they don't just buy a new processor and more memory, they buy a whole new friggin' computer! New keyboard, new motherboard, new monitor, new printer, etc. even though their old one is still functioning. If more people would simply buy what they need instead of being lazy and buying the package deal they get from Dell or Gateway, there wouldn't be so much hazardous computer trash to get rid of. Hell, even if you don't want to deal with the hastle of installing your own components into your old motherboard, just tell Dell or Gateway that you don't want the monitor. If they say "No, you have to buy the monitor as well!" you say "No, I dont. I'm leaving." No one is forcing you to add to the waste problem of the world.

Face facts, if you're stupid enough to inhale fumes from PC parts you're burning you should be dead. Those who don't die make money.

Did you read the article? These people have the equivalent of a few years of schooling at most. How many American elementary school kids do you think realize how much toxic stuff is in computers? These people don't have the education or knowledge to realize what they're doing. And even if they did, these people are desperate for a job. I'm sure that you, sitting at your computer munching away at a jelly donut or gulping down a SuperSize McDonald's meal don't fully realize how desperate one can be when you have a choice between a job that gives you headaches or watching your family starve to death.

If you don't like where you live ... move. It's like Sam Kinnison used to say, "You live in a freaking desert. Move."

Again, these people don't have any money. It takes money to start a new life. And where the hell do you suggest they go? Oh, that's right: this isn't your problem. As for the Kinnison quote, keep in mind that he was a comedian. You're not supposed to live your life in accordance with his routine.

I suspect America is "portrayed as the bad guy all around the world" because of awful human beings such as yourself who openly laugh at the less fortunate.

GMD

Re:Are you a troll?

[Pii]

Hey, China is accepting money that allows the dumping of all that crap. Do you think that after some evil capitalist recycling company collects all this stuff, puts it into containers, and loads it on a ship, they cast off from the pier and follow whatever course the wind blows?

What sucks is that the Chinese people have to put up with the bullshit governmnet that they've got. (And actually, with a billion odd citizens, you'd think they'd find the means of toppling it, but they haven't so far.)

Nobody is saying that it isn't sad, or tragic, to see anyone living in those kind of conditions.

All I'm saying is that the fact that all that waste has ended up in several impoverished villages in China is no accident. Sure, we produce a lot of waste, and much of it is comprised of substances that pose health risks, but China's government is actively collecting money to accept this waste material.

If blaming someone makes you feel better, how about starting there.

(This post is not a direct response to you, GMD... It's more of a "something needs to be said," and I was as far down the page as your post kind of thing.)

Re:Are you a troll?

[GuyMannDude]

You make some good points, Pii, which I probably should have stuck in my original post. I was too busy taking the original poster to task.

I am no fan of the Chinese government. I realize they are evil and corrupt. And I'm sure they bear a large part of the blame. But the original poster had a "not my fault" tone to it, and I wanted to make it clear that the First World is partially to blame for this mess.

This post is not a direct response to you, GMD

Thanks for the clarification. Peace. :)

GMD

Re:Are you a troll?

[Pii]

Of course the company doing the shipping is making a profit. Should they haul this stuff overseas at a loss? Tough to stay in business if you stay in the red.

At any rate, this reply is really about your parting comment:

It isn't the kids fault if he's sewing up sneakers either.

Presumably, you're taking some kind of pot shot at Nike, or some other company that has set up it's manufacturing facilites in the far east (Malaysia comes to mind).

Of course it's the kid's fault he's sewing up sneakers, and you know what? He's damn lucky.

What kind of work do you think he'd have been doing had Nike (or other nameless third world exploiters) not set up the factory? Ever been to southeast Asia?

I have, and I can tell you what he'd have been doing. He'd have been stuck out in a swampy field, trying to coax a yak to pull a plow through a rice paddie. Or he'd have been in what passes for a city, selling drugs, or himself to tourists with a penchant for young hairless boys. That "sweatshop" looks like a crappy job to you and I, but to him, it represents a measure of workplace safety not seen in that part of the world, and a much better wage that most of his alternatives.

The point is that you cannot compare human existance between first world and third world nations.

Manufacturing is the bootstrap by which a third world nation advances. Work conditions, better wages, additional benefits... These things come later. When you consider that for almost all of human history, existance is a brutish, violent, and impoverished state, maybe you can try to wrap your head around the idea that this represents tremendous progress.

Re:Are you a troll?

[elflord]

It's not like someone rented a ship, filled it up and went to the coast of china. Once there they didn't just throw the crap out there.

Sure they did. If they dispose of hazardous waste knowing that it will end up in someones back yard, they're to blame. Hiring polluters to do your dirty work does not make you any better than the polluter. It's sort of like buying stolen goods-- no respectable business person would do such a thing, and the law takes a very dim view on those who do.

Re:Are you a troll?

[Pii]

Well that's a lovely emotional reaction, filled with zeal and enthusiasm. Whatever happens, don't let facts stand in the way of your opinions.

For starters, what you see as exploitation, people in the 3rd world see as progress. When you have literally nothing, and you are presented the opportunity to earn $2.00 a day, you would see it the same way. That crappy factory job is better than every other prospect that faces those people.

Secondly, do you want to be the one that tells them that they can no longer sift through waste materials to earn a living because it's not "ecologically friendly?" Right now, they have a means of taking care of themselves. It's not something that you or I would do, but it's all they've got. You'd like they to stop because it's bad for the environment (an environmnet that, to this point, hasn't done much to take care of them). You tell them. Tell them they can't feed their families because it's too risky.

Third, if you think that it was simply the fact that they hadn't been told that it wasn't ok to suicide bomb the world trade center, then you're retarded. There are fundamental differences in the outlooks of the people that inhabit the middle east. Take for example the conflict between the Syrians and the Israelis. During their last conflict, when towns had been bombed out, the Syrians left the destroyed remains of their villages to serve as a reminder. Do you know what the Israelis did? They rebuilt. That is as telling an example as I can provide.

The middle east is a very interesting part of the world, because it demonstrates what happens when you turn a third world nation into a first world nation in terms of immediate regional economic prosperity. The Arab states (Saudi Arabia, as an example) have plenty of money, thanks to the oil that sits beneath them, but they skipped over the traditional path of economic development. They never had a manufacturing base. They lack an organic technological capability. In short, they lack maturity as an economic power. (I'm not speaking in generalities... I've spent a year of my life in SA. I've seen it first hand.)

The sudden prosperity of the region has been a boon to them, but it has left them vulnerable to the inevitable. What happens to them when the oil runs out? They have nothing else going for them. They will simply fade back to their previous irrelevance.

The economic progress in Asia is completely different. Take a look at Japan. 60 years ago, they were a feudal society. Where are they today? An economic world leader, and they got that way the same way that the United States did. They became a manufacturing giant. It helped to elevate them to where they are today.

Look at Hong Kong. Look at Taiwan. They are poised to do the same thing. China will be in the same boat once they put the last nail in the coffin of communism.

That leads into your comment about immigration. Once opportunity seeds itself in a region, people no longer need to get away in order to prosper. Immigration , legal or illegal, doesn't concern me. I am concerned about the root cause. It is the lack of economic opportunity that forces people to abandon the nations of their birth. Circumstance can change in a single generation.

I know that as a European, you are overly sensative to matters of living conditions, and the environment. I also know that you may have difficulty seeing things as being dynamic, or prgressive, because you live in a country where things are as they have been for many generations.

You can afford to stay "no more progress" because things for you are pretty good. You cannot tell people in the 3rd world that they can make "no more progress," because things for them are simply awful.

In time, as more factories open, and the workforce begins to have choices about where to go to work, working conditions will improve. Right now, they have a labor rich environment. This "exploitation" can only last until the labor supply becomes tighter, and it will happen. Once it does, the employers will have to compete for that labor pool, and they will do so by offerring better wages, and safer working environments. It is the natural progression, and there's simply no effective way to take a shortcut.

Use old Monitors as TVs?

[commonchaos]

I have wondered for a long time why they dont use old computer monitors as TVs. Free (used) monitor, with the minimal cost of a NTSC to VGA converter, and you have a cheap hi resolution monitor...

Pure unadulterated junk photojournalism hype

[tshoppa]

building ramshackle systems out of used and discarded first world computer parts.

Isn't this the same topic that about a quarter of the "Ask Slashdot" threads are about? :-)

Interesting to see that lead is now a horribly toxic substance, at least to the BBC reporter. When I was a kid we played with mercury with few precautions, and all fishing line weights were lead.

The pictures are pure photojournalism hype at its worst. Yeah, let's put some kid in front of that pile of junk and have them make a face!

Re:But is is his Job.

[DAldredge]

from the about link on /. " In the beginning there was no Slashdot. Bored and confused geeks would scribble "First Post" in the sand. Grits were strictly for consumption and there wasn't a place to get nerd oriented news. Then in September of 97 Rob "CmdrTaco" Malda changed all that. With the help of Jeff "Hemos" Bates and others, Slashdot has stumbled forward with the simple mission to provide 'News for Nerds. Stuff that Matters'.

Today Slashdot is owned by OSDN, but it is still run by many of the same people as it was 'Back in the Day'. Today we serve millions of pages to hundreds of thousands of readers. But the goal is still the same."

from cmdrtaco.net "Slashdot I guess I should just fess up and take the blame- I created Slashdot a long time ago, and now it seems to have grown into something pretty amazing. Come on down and check it out for news about Linux, Open Source Software, Legos, Games, Star Wars, Science, Technology and pretty much anything else that falls into the "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters" umbrella. "

from the /. FAQ "Slashdot is run primarily by me and by Jeff "Hemos" Bates, who posts stories, sells advertising, and handles the book reviews"

If you have anymore questions please let me know

send you old monitor to

[geekoid]

OSDN
50 Nagog Park
Acton, MA 01720

perferably COD.

First World?

[fishbowl]

Where is this First World, anyway?

I always thought the First World referred to
Europe since the Renaissance, the New World referred
to the Americas, with the Third World being any
nonindustrialized ("developing") country.

Saw this in Nat'l Geographic

[cjsnell]

I think I saw a picture of this in National Geographic a few years back. The picture was of some ladies on an apparently scorching hot dockside somewhere in China. Ships would unload giant piles of computer boards and chips and it was their job to sort through this. Imagine piles of 80's-era boards nearly 15' high nearly melting in the tropical sun. When I saw this, I thought to myself that this had to be one of the world's worst jobs.

Stuff

[Chanc_Gorkon]

Ok this isn't making me feel sorry. First off, these people are being made to suffer by a government that does not realize that the people far outweigh the amount of army there is...plus the army folks may end up joining the real folks when the call for revolution. On the other hand, this kind of reason is why I still have junk laying around the house for one, and for two why I never throw this stuff away until it's TOTALLY useless.

Previous /. Stories

[sielwolf]

Naturally Slashdot has covered this topic before... according to this previous /. article China had banned the import of U.S. Electronic trash.

Also here is a previous article on recycling costs added onto PCs.

Nothing like spending the few extra minutes to search your own website for a topic. On the other hand, this is a more important, concrete, and immediate problem than hypothetical flame wars associated with the DMCA/RIAA/MPAA that are the meat of most /. threads.

Re:Huh? Asbestos is not a carcinogentic material?

[geekoid]

Asbestos causes cancer. It can take as little as 1 particle to manifest itself into cancer in 20 years. Once asbestos is atached to your lungs, it doesn't go away.

Paper doesn't come from rainforests!!

[GuyMannDude]

I want to go completely paperless, because I don't like the idea of killing the rainforest for paper.

God dammit!! Why do people keep saying this?!? Paper comes from trees specifically planted to produce paper! It doesn't come from the trees in the rainforests! The rainforests are being cut down because space is needed for agricultural development in 3rd world countries. Do you really think trees are falling in South America and then being shipped to the USA to make paper??

Your post (which someone modded as 'Insightful') seems to ask what you can do for the environment. Here's my suggestion: make sure you really understand the issues. Because when you start spouting things like "killing the rainforest for paper" you make ALL of us look like idiots. It's too easy for the pro-big-business, anti-environment forces to point to someone like you and paint all concerned people as morons who want to save the rainforests "because Sting said so".

GMD

Re:Paper doesn't come from rainforests!!

[7-Vodka]

Okay, I'm from Brazil so I will comment. In the rainforests in Brazil loggers DO cut down trees and sell them for every purpose. Yes even to make paper in the developed world. Not only that but over 90% of all the trees cut down go to the developed world. Where do you think all the good wood like mahogony (ie. everything except pine, oak and cherry) comes from? A rainforest that's where. These trees take hundreds of years to grow, they can't be cultivated like pine.

You do have a point that a significant portion of the damage to the forests is done in order to get new agricultural land, but it's not cut down it's usually burned down illegaly by rogue farmers.
Don't go getting smug though, because 90% of that agricultural product (usually beef) then gets sold in the developed world as well. Not only that, but because most of the cleared land was burned down to graze cattle, the soil becomes unusable within a few years and they do it again.

Regardless of how the damage is done, the vast majority of it is financed for by money from the developed world.Yes, what you do here does mean you're responsible for acres of rainforests being depleted. Quit denying it and do something about it.

Re:Paper doesn't come from rainforests!!

[k98sven]

Here's what the situation is like in the scandinavian countries, which are the primary producers of European paper.

Trees are usually logged for the lumber.
What doesn't become lumber (tree-tops, branches, etc.) is used for paper.

Paper is usually made from coniferous trees, not broadleaf, they have too short fibers.

Now I don't know much about rainforests being used for paper, but I kind of doubt it because:
a) rainforest timber is worth much more as lumber.
b) rainforest timber isn't all that suitable for making paper.

From what I've heard, the big problem facing the rainforests is not logging either; it's poor farmers turning rainforest into farmland.

The idiots who submit stories could do it too...

[jonr]

It only takes a few seconds. Why making it harder wor CmdrTaco & Co.?

dont feel bad about the planet

[RembrandtX]

feel bad about humanity.

if we pollute the planet and use up its natural resources to the point where we can survive .. its not going to have much of an impact on the 'planet's' life span.

the worse we (as humanity) can do is kill ourselves off .

the planet will recover/repair itself after we are dead.

Odd statistic

[gwernol]

Okay, moving story. Poor third world people. Clearly evil Western powers at work.

But... can we trust the source. The quoted Basel Action Network says that a pile of 500 computers contains 717Kg of lead. That just doesn't sound plausible. Does every computer really have 3.15 pounds of lead in it? Where? Not in the case (all plastic and steel usually). Lead is used in PCB manufacturing, but has anyone heard of a 3lb. PCB?Lead is not a major component of ICs. Perhaps if it was an old portable computer is might have Lead-Acid batteries, but I very much doubt there's more than 3 pounds of the stuff in any portable.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I am sceptical of this figure. If their basic stats are wrong, how much can we trust the rest of the reporting? It seems emotive and biased. I'm sure there is a story here and a legitimate concern, but I'd like to see the real facts.

Re:Odd statistic

[leshert]

It's in the monitor glass. Leaded glass reduces emissions.

Re:Odd statistic

[tibbetts]

The quoted Basel Action Network says that a pile of 500 computers contains 717Kg of lead. That just doesn't sound plausible. Does every computer really have 3.15 pounds of lead in it?

This is literally not true, but it's close. CRTs do contain lead to block the low-level radiation that they produce. See the Electronic Industries Alliance's information page on lead use in CRTs, along with a handy PDF. Examples range from 1.7 lbs in a 14" CRT to 2.3 in a 21" one. Add that to whatever amounts may be present in other system peripherals, and 3 lbs probably isn't too far a stretch. Remember, most people in this world consider a "computer" to be not only that box with the retractable coffee-cup holder, but the entire system (including monitor, keyboard, mouse, etc.).

I don't think so.

[FreeLinux]

Do you really think that that they are paying the Chinese to take "toxic waste" as well as paying to ship it to them? If that were the case, it would be far cheaper to ship the equipment halfway, as in , dump it in the middle of the Pacific.

Would you not think it more likely that the Chinese companies are paying for, not toxic waste but, used equipment. Which these companies then canibalize for parts, hoping to resell said parts for a profit? Their probably paying the shipping too.

Furthermore, the recycling companies that take this equipment in the US are doing basically the same thing with the equipment. But, in the US the government has laws restricting the methods that can be used. These environmental laws not only keep our environment relatively safe, they also raise the cost of the recycled parts considerably which makes it hard for the american recyclers to compete with the Chinese ones. Not to mention that the Chinese labor laws also give them a significant profit advantage over the US. This is a major reason why so few US companies do this recycling but, there are probably many in places such as China

From an environmental standpoint, the things shown in this article are atrocious. The same is true from a human rights standpoint. But, this is definitely not a situation forced upon them by the US. The only people that can really beleive that are the same people that feel that gun manufacturers are responsible for murders.

Re:I am so glad ...

[geekoid]

Why the morn you responed to disgusts meas well as you, I felt obligated to respond to one of your statements:

" Then why should we have a right to dump our waste there"

its not like we just go over and dump it. there is a financial transaction going on. China's government should take action to stop this. I think it would do the US a world of good if they didn't ship our trash elseware. except for the original poster, he we should send to china. perferable with no money and just the close on his back. Lets see how fast he puts up with headaches in order not to starve.

Re:How to dispose of a monitor

[MarkGriz]

5. Profit!

Whoa! This looks familiar.

[xyote]

I used to spend all my Saturdays in those kind of surroundings. It was one of those industrial surplus places. The back lot on this place looked literally like those photos. I used to kid about it being the next Superfund site.

Lot of neat stuff used to show up. Dirt cheap. Stepper motors - $.50. Optical encoders - $2. I got a unused W.Bergman 100:1 gear reducer for $1. It was about $200 about 20 years ago. Can't image what it would go for now.

But all the technology changed. It used to be all discrete componets you could reuse/recycle, vacuum tubes, transisters, etc... Now you can hardly reuse that stuff. It's all surface mount stuff.

Recycling raw materials is borderline economical even for the Chinese. Gold plating is only a few angstroms thick. Composite plastics can't be recycled that I know of.

Of course, since all the stuff is made there to begin with, perhaps the Chinese ought to think about manufacturing the stuff so it's easier and safer to recyle.

Then be pro-active.

[mekkab]

simply wallowing is not the answer.

Fine, you feel bad. So what are you gonna do about it? Short term? Long term?
Short term- you could buy your food from local farmers markets and buy organic in supermarkets.
(remember: Organic means poop!)

Don't buy soaps and shampoos from companies that test on animals (you can get a list from peta.com- my wife does this and you can still buy producst from Target... just not all of 'em.)

Don't buy products from companies who "pollute" the environment.

For the mid term- the next car you buy should be a hybrid. Get in touch with people who have gone completely off the grid (hydro, wind, solar, etc.)
and see how they made the transition.
Marry someone who can sew and make your own clothes. (or do it yrself!)

Make a plan, and DO IT. Its gonna cost you more money, its gonna take up more time and effort to do what everyone else does; but no one said character building was easy.

If you can dream it, you can do it. If you whine about it, you'll get the smack-down you deserve.
If you do it and whine about it, then yr just like me! ;)

Re:Then be pro-active.

[TibbonZero]

Thank you, I would like to do something about it, and I am working on changing myself currently for the better in these respects.
I like all your ideas, and I will look more into them. For a vehicle, I am looking into a scooter actually. It's a little better suited for the city enviorment, and gets great as milage, better than most hybrids. I am toying around with ideas to make one into being powered by an alternate fuel source (hydrogen, natual gas, etc...)

Re:Then be pro-active.

[mekkab]

actually, due to the reduced weight (comparing a scooter to a typical car) your power needs are a lot smaller so it should be more effective.

AND, if you can retro-fit a schnazzy Vespa then you can be more enviro-friendly and stylish at the same time!

One thing I forgot in my parent post-
while making a difference in your life step by step, you can also teach the knowledge you get from your experiences to others. Maybe a webpage on turning green... By providing a resource that makes it easier for others you help propagate even more change.

Re:Then be pro-active.

[Jester99]

The only part of your post I take issues with is the "don't buy products tested on animals."

Take a good look at the ingredients in shampoo these days. They're just about ALL the same. The "New" shampoos are the same as the ones from the 1950s, like Johnson's Baby Shampoo. All those chemicals were at some point, tested on animals. Not one of those companies has any more "environmental conscience", they just want to market themselves that way.

Furthermore: did you ever wonder what would happen if that stuff reacted poorly with your skin? Or your eyes? Or you accidentally swallowed some because you sneezed when lathering up? I'm happy that my hair products were tested on animals -- that way, I'm assured that it's not going to blind me or kill me if I fuck up by accident! Do you have small children? They get shampoo in their eyes a lot. Do you want to risk your child's eyesight, squirting chemicals of unknown toxicity into his or her young eyes? Thanks to animal testing, you know that some shampoos are perfectly harmless.

Re:Then be pro-active.

[jefflinwood]

Make sure you get a 4-stroke engine in your scooter. Just the 2-stroke engines in lawnmowers cause more pollution than any engine in a passenger car today. One of the simplest and cheapest things you can do today to improve the environment locally is to get rid of your gas mower, and replace it with a corded or cordless electric mower. Or use an old reel mower if you want :)

Re:Then be pro-active.

[mekkab]

True, at ONE point, the chemicals were tested on animals. So why re-test?! The idea is that I'm not supporting companies that continue to test on animals. It's just a personal thing.

Actually, My wife reads the Paula Begoun series of books ,so I know how its gonna react to my skin. Plus, I cut through the advertising bullshit.

But like I said, YES, I want safe products, but I won't buy them from companies that continue to test. I'm not implying that you are an animal becuase you use White Rain on your hair! Screw the environment, I do it for me. ;)

Re:It's a dirty job...

[ianscot]

Beats working at McDonald's.

For $1.50 a day? That's the going rate in China for these workers, according to the article.

1.5 Kg lead per computer??

[RallyNick]

On the second page of the article it says: a pile of 500 computers contains 717kg of lead, 1.36kg of cadmium, 863 grams of chromium and 287 grams of mercury . So where is my PC hiding that almost 1.5kg (about 3 pounds) of lead??

Re:1.5 Kg lead per computer??

[Zen Mastuh]

That statistic got me too. I run my boxes (not boxen!) w/o covers, so I just took a moment to go hunting for the lead in mine. No metallic material in any of my boxes seems as soft or as dense as lead. I'm wondering if they are counting monitors, since monitors use lead to protect the user from exposure. Lead is very dense, so it doesn't take "much" to come up with 1.4 kg. Judging from the weight of my monitor, I could grant a few of those pounds to lead.

Of course the statistic could merely be a typo. While we're speculating, it could also be possible that the statistic is an outright lie, part of a liberalistical conspiracy designed to steer the public down the false road of environmentalism as our great nation succumbs to the one-world UN government. /me loosens tin foil hat...

Whether that statistic is accurate or not, I am grateful for the photo essay. We live in a complex world, and the consequences of most of our actions are conveniently hidden from our view--especially at our request. The "not-in-my-backyard" mantra repeated for decades in the U.S. has created this reality in which we have no idea how much garbage we produce; how much air, water, and soil we foul; how many people we sicken.

More clearly than a butterly flapping its wings in Isole Canaria can cause the flattening of South Florida, a Typical American watching a commercial for a new CPU family can cause the poisoning of an entire Chinese village.

Re:1.5 Kg lead per computer??

[leshert]

Continue reading the article. It's in the CRT screen--leaded glass, you know, to reduce emissions.

Due Diligence

[mekkab]

Call your friendly neighborhood recycling place and ask. Ask what they do. Ask who they deliver to. Then ask them. And Ask and ask and ask.

If need be, try to visit the facilities. If you can't get a straight answer out of them they might be blowing you off cuz they don't care or they might be doing the wrong thing. Find out what your state, county, and city laws are regarding recycling. Follow up, make phone calls, and ask questions.

If you care, you make the extra effort. If you don't, you stick it in ebay.

Seattle's county ahead of the game on this

[eggboard]

Seattle's county, King County, handles solid waste disposal, and launched a project two years ago that turned into a pretty serious change in how computers are disposed of at dumps. Yes, people can still try to slip in electronics, but you can no longer drop off monitors, and other CRTs will follow. The county works with local businesses, and has found safe and well-documented U.S. sources to send the products to.

For instance, monitors are disassembled, and the tubes sent to Pennsylvania, where the glass is smelted, and the lead separate for reuse. (The poster who mentioned that LCDs change this equation are right: no new smelters for recycling are being built because CRTs will no longer exist outside specialized uses, so existing smelters will handle the tens of millions of discards.)

Likewise, circuits and other components are sent to companies that often offer job retraining and are nonprofits to safely, under OSHA rules, extract useful materials. One outfit in the SF Bay Area can even get usable epoxy out of circuit boards which can be reused.

The real problem with computing as with white goods (appliances) and other products like cars is that the manufacturers are only required to use safe techniques in building them. Disposal is not part of the price tag. This is changing gradually in Europe, and it's clear to all concerned that if there were a federal mandate, we'd all see savings over the lifecycle of the product: we wouldn't have surprise billion-dollar cleanup funds, and would stop poisoning the rest of the world.

HP and other companies have taken some great steps with toner cartridges and some other limited products that they build in such a way that they can be easily disassembled and much of the parts reused or refashioned.

About "used" tires...

[cr0sh]

From what I understand, tires that we consider "bald" (by our safety standards and whatnot) are considered nearly new in most 2nd and 3rd world countries. Also, most of those countries have no issues with the retreading of passenger car tires (and I am sure that a lot of retreading equipment that existed here in America before such things were banned on passenger cars here got shipped over there as well) - a good retread (hell, even a bad one) - and the tire will be great for a few years.

Ever wonder why you can't get passenger car retreads here in the States (commercial vehicle retreads ARE available, though)? Why such a practice was made illegal? You will hear stories about the retreads causing accidents, flying apart at speed, etc. While I am sure these stories are true, I sincerely doubt each and every tire did this (just as all Firestone tires didn't explode, either). If you look through older "tech" magazines (think old 1940-50-60's Pop Sci and Pop Mech magazines), you would find articles on properly choosing retreads, what to look for, and what to avoid. The business was a legitimate business, and while there were most certainly shady deals done, I am as equally certain that the majority of retreaders could do a good job, that would retread a tire to last a while longer.

I think, but have no proof, that the retread business was eating into tire manufacturer's business, and, well - you know the rest of the story - lobbiests, campaign contributions, etc (of course, there may be merit also in the idea of steel-belted radials being unable to retread because the new rubber couldn't bond properly to the old - but it makes you also wonder if these weren't invented to fight AGAINST retreads)...

Re:About "used" tires...

[buckeyeguy]

Commercial vehicle retreads are available because on a truck with 6, 10, up to 18 wheels on it, all that is needed is 'dumb rubber', a tire that is roughly the same dimension as the other tires on the vehicle. Contrast that with the 4-wheeled passenger car, which is moving ever faster and growing ever heavier. Would you really want retreads on that Lincoln Navigator that you're trailing down the highway at 75 MPH?

And aside from 'disposable society' comparisons, I'm not sure why this one's here. Slashdot readers re-use stuff on a regular basis, but there's little chance of a 0% waste product cycle for computer hardware.

Re:About "used" tires...

[cr0sh]

Commercial vehicle retreads are available because on a truck with 6, 10, up to 18 wheels on it, all that is needed is 'dumb rubber', a tire that is roughly the same dimension as the other tires on the vehicle.

I understand this - my brother-in-law is a dump-truck driver (10 wheeler), and has used retreads, used tires, as well as new tires all the time. I can see the logic of why they allow it on commercial vehicles vs. passenger cars.

Contrast that with the 4-wheeled passenger car, which is moving ever faster and growing ever heavier. Would you really want retreads on that Lincoln Navigator that you're trailing down the highway at 75 MPH?

Considering that even new tires (like I mentioned the Firstone tires - other companies have had similar tire problems) aren't that safe, could a retread, when properly done using today's technology (I am sure retreads done today could be done so they were much safer and better bonded), be any worse? We really won't ever know. Maybe today's cars would be too dangerous with retreads - but it makes you wonder why yesterday's cars were considered OK, considering they weighed as much if not more than today's behemoths, and could go just as fast.

Re:Taco, Google. Google, Taco.

[ansible]

Well, Taco should have phrased that:

Anyone know the proper way to dispose of a monitor, in my area?

That, sadly, is not an easy-to-answer question. It's real hit-and-miss as to if there is someplace nearby to dispose of stuff like CRTs.

See how wasteful you are

[Anonymous Coward]

Take the quiz

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth /w orld/2002/disposable_planet/

If everyone lived like me we'd need 3.7 planets. I'm sure this is pretty alarmist but we're definately screwing up this planet. I mean it 50 degrees outside in the Bay Area during the middle of August, WTF?

Re:Possible Human Carcenogen

[cr0sh]

Not sure if I could agree with you or not - somewhere I heard that there was some kind of link between cancer and inflammation - basically, something like cancer is known to cause inflammation - but that "they" (doctors? scientists?) were finding where it seemed like if there was inflammation, the risk of cancer went up.

If you think about it, it does SEEM this way - think about how many types of cancers there are where it is stated "If you have 'x' inflammatory disease, you are at greater risk of 'y' cancer".

Asbestos and inhaled particles from toner would cause irritation and inflammation of the lungs - so would dirty, polluted air. So would cigarette smoke. What about ovarian cancer? Inflammation caused by cysts on the ovaries is cited as one possible risk factor.

Of course, this doesn't explain all cancers - but maybe we don't know what is causing the inflammation? Also, we don't hear about those with sore backs (muscle or spinal inflammation) getting cancer in those areas - but maybe it has to be long term "minor" inflammation (ie, minor in that it is long-term and unnoticeable)?

Can anyone back me up, or am I hallucinating again...?

You're absolutely right (but so is he)

[jht]

The problem here that I see is that human life is a precious thing. And when I apply my values and philosophies to other places, I am appalled that people in China are so poor that they have to subsist by stripping old, dangerous electronic equipment.

Unfortunately, there's a flip side of that which makes things even more tragic:

there's places in the world so desperately poor that stripping old, dangerous electronic equipment is actually a step up for them.

This is the heart of the problem, and why I can't condemn what happens in China (or the Indian ship-breakers). Our wealthy society discards these materials because they no longer have value to us. However, they have sufficient value as to advance the lives of some poor souls overseas, where their lives are so wretched as to make scrap-sifting a viable living.

Despite all the hazardous material that can lower life expectancy through exposure, a lot of these people are so poorly fed and cared for that it makes virtually no difference what sort of danger they face - they'll die young regardless. It's awful, but it's reality. And projecting our standards onto their lives won't help them, really - it'll just make us feel less guilty about the reality.

Western civilization went through a period like this - it was called the Industrial Revolution, and it lasted almost a century. Now it's happening elsewhere, and the people who are suffering now are doing so so that the generations that come after them may have a better chance of success. I'm not saying things are identical today, but the privileged life we Westerners live today (and especially we North Americans) was built on the backs of our ancestors who worked as essentially conscript labor and died young.

Think about it. I may be horrified by the life these people in China are living, but for many of them it's their only chance at a better life. That's not our fault. I'm not saying we should waste more to give them something to do. I'm just saying they are part of the system, and if for some reason we're all able to stop disposing of monitors someday they'll find another job that nobody else in the global economy wants to do. It may be a safer job. But then again, it may not.

Not condoning this, but...

[tuxlove]

A friend of mine spent months doing biological research in the Gobi desert in China. They visited small villages and towns in the middle of absolute nowhere; places where they had never even seen a caucasian; through big cities and small. He drove thousands of miles, through just about every type of terrain imaginable.

One of the things that struck him was the incredible amount of pollution taking place, and the complete lack of consciousness of the problem. Chemicals being dumped straight out of factories into rivers, etc. That sort of thing.

They spent some time in a windy little desert village where the dust swirled thickly. You couldn't see too far when the wind blew, and people sometimes wore those disposable white breathing masks when going out. It was a mining town, but when my friend finally realized just what they mined in that town, they got the hell out. It wasn't desert dust enveloping the town, but asbestos dust from the mine and surrounding landscape. The inhabitants either didn't know or didn't care about the implications of breathing high volumes of asbestos dust on a constant basis. Certainly the government didn't care. But so it goes for China, the most polluted country on the planet.

So when I hear that discarded stuff from the US makes its way to China to add to the pollution there, I'm not surprised at all. The utter lack of controls on pollution by the government does indeed take a toll on the population. This is just another of thousands of instances of large scale pollution taking place in China. While I do not condone US corporations paying the Chinese to take our poisonous junk, the blame lies largely on the government of China for allowing this to happen. They do it to their own people with their own spew, and it's sad that they're willing to add our spew to the mix. It's unfortunate that life is apparently so cheap in China. Until they take a more protective stance on their own people and environment, I'm afraid there will always be countries eager to send them their refuse.

Re:Not condoning this, but...

[ainsoph]

.....and it takes education, resources, and not having Transnationals who go over there because there are not the same Environmental regs are there are in the West.

The Western ideal is the carrot on the stick for these places. In some cases they are forced into using these pollutants (Monsanto), in other cases they are destroying themselves and their environment for *US*, so we can shop at Bed, Bath, Beyond and buy some stinkin Knick Knacks.

While I appreciate your argument, you have to look at who is behind the exploitation. The govs are in the pockets of the transnationals. If they tried to enact laws to prevent our business interests there, they would be labels "Terrorists" and governments would topple, new leaders would be installed who would be more pliant to our aims.

We repeat this cycle until the standard of living reaches a point where the bottom line is no longer looking good, so we drop it like a hot potato, and find a new country were people will sit around in toxic waste for peanuts.

(Witness Thailand and the Asia miracle of the 90's, now toast, but all our chips where made there in the 90's, they prospered, now they are screwed)

There has to be a way to make this process better.

[mesozoic]

There's probably a huge market in recycled computer materials, especially with the enormous surplus of junk that exists today.

This could be a boon to the Chinese economy, if it's done properly. A company sets up a factory where workers are properly trained and equipped to safely take apart computer junk and separate the useful leftovers from the true crud. Whatever can be resold, is, whatever can't, is disposed of properly -- and with no intrinsic value remaining, people won't be encouraged to pick through the scraps and inhale fumes.

Re:Possible Human Carcenogen

[Pig Hogger]

I am also in favor of shipping all our garbage into space. I will rely on huge technology advancements in the future to help clean it all up.

Naaah, you don't need any technological advancement to do so.

All you need are mob connections.

The second world, not the third.

[wackybrit]

The terms 'first world', 'second world' and 'third world' came from Cold War times. The 'First World' defined all those countries that were capitalist, the 'Second World' all those that were communist, and the 'Third World' were countries that were neither, thanks to negligable markets etc.

So.. China is in the Second World, not the Third!

Re:I am so glad ...

[electroniceric]

Having recently been IN China, I'll play the learned-something-about-it card. The Chinese government is not dumb. Corrupt and authoritarian, probably. What they will do is set up their society (cause in the government has a lot of power to construct society to its liking) to capitalize on cheap labor like this and drive your precious employment offshore. And you ain't safe just by being a geek, either - the presence of people inhaling noxious fumes for $1.50 a day drives down the wages of those inhaling donuts in front of a computer. And when that's done, they'll set the terms of trade so that your razors cost $10.50. SO even if you're naive enough to persist in the it-ain't-my-fault tack, you might want to think about the consequences.

Allright, now to respond to your lamer responses in kind (to make sure I get modded down):

You're too tough to be moved, eh? Cause it's always someone else's fault, and they're always trying to stick the blame squarely on you pgrote. It's not enough for a guy just to want to eat Doritos and play XBox. I mean, what the hell do they want? And then they turn around and call good ol' pgrote cold hearted!

We got a word for you in American English:
Pissant.

Linux is not blameless...

[MsGeek]

Actually Linux has a problem that the BSDs don't. Most of the major Linux distros have gotten almost as bloated as MS, and the bloat is compounded by the fact that these same major Linux distros give you a handful of apps to do the same thing where one "best of breed" app could have been chosen.

One of the reasons I am so pro-Lycoris is that the distro takes that very stance. Why confuse the beginning Linux user with a myriad of apps, most of which are redundant, when you can provide the best email program, the best browser, the best Tetris clone game, etc. etc.? While I can question some of their choices, I can see where this approach is best for their target audience. And hey, the more expert users can ADD to the installed apps! What a concept!

Because it is a KDE-centric distro, Lycoris' ability to function on computers degrades with less powerful processors. The suggested minimum processor speed/type is a 300MHz Pentium II. I suspect that with a lot of the eyecandy turned off it should be fine on a 233MHz Pentium MMX or better.

This does nothing for older machines, though. What is needed is a lightweight graphical distro that can make low end Pentia and 486en useful. The recent issue of Linux Journal has an interesting article by Marcel Gagne suggesting the kind of apps that would work in such a lightweight distro.

I don't know the first thing about putting together a distribution, but I am looking to learn. I have been riding this particular hobbyhorse for years now but nobody's done anything about it. People are either compiling ultra-tight distros for bootdisks and whatnot or making monster distros for bleeding edge computers. No middle ground. It is this middle ground that can make the kind of machines hitting these landfills in China usable again.

There are kids in Pacoima and the South Bronx and the Southside of Chicago and Oaktown who could use these computers. The companies upgrading their boxen are throwing perfectly useful machines out or sending them to fly-by-night "Recyclers" who instead ship them to the 3rd world. When companies donate instead of recycling, MS gets on their case about licensing. The refurbishers get static from MS about licensing. The underpriveleged kids who need computers at home go without.

A good, lightweight Linux distro could change all this. It's time to create one.

That's a good question

[BeBoxer]

At what point in the chain do we hand everything off to a central supplier who sells it out of the country?

That's a good question. It seems unlikely that this old junk is being diverted from landfills. I'm fairly certain that the stuff I put in my trash can gets transferred straight to a landfill with no post-processing at all. In the US, labor is too expensive to even try to remove the recylables from the garbage, much less to try and separate out toxic waste to ship to third world countries.

Clearly, whomever is selling this junk to China is somehow getting volume shipments of old computer gear for dirt cheap prices. Or even getting paid to haul it off. I know that Boulder runs a 'hard to recycle' program where for a not-so-minimal fee you can drop off old computers to have them properly disposed of. I've dumped some broken stuff off there, and had that nagging feeling that maybe I was being a sucker and paying to have my stuff dumped in a landfill. How would I tell? Think for a while about how expensive it would be to recycle computer parts in the US. The EPA and OSHA requirements would be brutal. Does anybody know of a place that is actually, for a fact, recycling computer parts in the States? If not, where is the recycling happening?

Back to the vendors selling junk to China, where could you get large volumes of outdated computer equipment? You could buy it at surplus auctions and such. But you know the Chinese aren't paying much for the junk, and you have to get it over there. Trying to buy anything, even junk, at US prices and sell it at Chinese prices and make a profit would be next to impossible. You might be able to get some stuff for free, by offering to haul it away. But what if you could get people to pay you to haul it away. And then get the Chinese to pay you again to take it away from you. You could make out like a bandit! And let me tell you, post-Enron, it's not hard to imagine somebody crooked enough to pull this off. And the best part is, the more heart-breaking stories like this the appear in the media the more you can get people to pay to "properly dispose" of their computer gear. I think maybe I'll start sticking with the "put it in the attic" disposal method for now.

Real world situation... Bad hard drives?

[Mustang Matt]

What should one do when a hard drive doesn't reliably hold data or stops spinning?

I always just chuck it in the trash, sometimes I take the time to beat it with a hammer just to see the insides and "quality control" the casing. I will say that Western Digital drives seem to hold up much more than any others I've smashed.

Cars

[LatJoor]

Let's not forget the automobile situation in the third world. Cars there tend to burn much dirtier, and run on diesel or (!!) leaded gasoline. European manufacturers export cars to Africa if they fail emissions tests in the EU. This is not recycling, precisely, but a way of dumping old or faulty technology on countries at such a discount that they will still buy it.

Where can I get some?

[Rayonic]

Not to belittle the specter of human suffering, but where can I get my hands on some of this free hardware? I want to set up a Linux server for my home, but I haven't got the cash to go out and buy some cheap hardware.

I figure there are a lot of perfectly-working Pentium I (or II) class machines being "recycled" to these third world countries. Is there somewhere I can go and just nab one?

Re:In this case, it's appropriate.

[Dixie_Flatline]

Hah! Someone mod that up. :)

Why are they obsolete to begin with?

[gelfling]

Why do so many PCs need to be scrapped if not for the godawful software with the unquenchable lust for hardware. Why is the PC you bought 3.56 nanominutes ago too slow already? WTF is that about?

Last year I got rid of a 9 year old PC that was a workhorse but eventually ran out of upgrade capability even for my humble needs. Today I have 5 PC's in my house. The newest one is 4 years old the oldest is 8. And frankly if you can't get the job done on one of them then you are doing the wrong job. They are Caldera (or SuSE I keep going back and forth) and Win95OSR2. And that's it.

PCs get recycled because people get suckered into thinking that 1.6Ghz, a half Gig of RAM and 2 120GB drives and a 48X CDRW to replace that old crappy 32X is gonna make their lives perfect. And you know what? If you did everything the Gods-o-Redmond told you, you really would have to upgrade forever. I mean what's Office 2000 without more compute power than ran NORAD? Nothing, it's crap that's what.

So if you feel bad for the poor orphans chained to their soldering irons then think of Bill (I have more money than the entire fucking nation of Peru) Gates and the scourge that is his software.

Thanks!

[TibbonZero]

Thank you for all your great responses. I do intend to change myself more soon. I am reusing things, I have been recycling for the past 10 years or so- which accounts for about 60% of my trash.
I currently live in the south, so unfortunately these people down here have no idea what public transportation is. Busses don't go anywhere, subways are a myth, and everyone owns 1-3 cars (hell I know someone who has 9 cars to themself at the moment). But thankfully the north will be a little better to me in that respect.
All of your coments have been very helpful, and I just wanted to say thanks to those who have been constructive.
In case anyone else didn't think of it, another thing that can make you feel better (or disgusted with people who go to parks and rivers), is to join a river clean-up activity, or adopt a highway program. It helps keep our tributaries and roadways cleaner. Thanks again, I think I will start acting, instead of just thinking.

Bike?

[TibbonZero]

Have you tried Biking in the city? I am thinking of getting one. Since I don't live there yet, I don't really know how one will fare with people and traffic, and how long I can use it in the year because of weather conditions.

Run it off of potatoes!

[mekkab]

You do if you expect to handle a severe slashdotting!*

*Yes, I know handling a good slashdotting has nothing to do with power supplies. It has to do with how much video ram you have. And I've got lots.

I just pre-viewed this post and I think my brain is running off of potato power... screw work, It's GUINESS TIME!

I didn't read the article, but...

[Scratch-O-Matic]

a friend of mine runs a business that collects old monitors and circuit boards and send them overseas, where they are dismantled/refurbished/whatever. I think they go to Asia or someplace like that.

It's a great deal, because he gets paid to get rid of them, and the foreigners get paid to dispose of them. Sort of like an international Goodwill. It's a nice feeling to know that you can help someone who wouldn't otherwise have a job, and it also helps keep the environment clean over here.

Thanks folks. I'll be in town all week.

Re:A500

[ScottBob]

Hey, I still got mine. And 2 C-64s. And my VIC-20. And the burned out power supplies for the above. Come to think of it, every computer I've ever had I still got, including the peripherals, along with other people's huddled masses of wretched refuse. Occasionally, I go out and salvage a part or 2 to get another computer working, or donate parts to my workplace (the cheap bastards are still using 10 year old 386 computers until they break down, then try to repair them.)

Can't read, can you?

[SpiceWare]

underneath the first photo recycling computers from the US and Europe ...

Time to get off your typical European High Horse...

Ah, the noble savage...

[doorbot.com]

Your post was interesting. Not insightful, but interesting. However, since I have chosen to opt-out of Slashdot's moderation round-robin I will instead post this reply (which, BTW, uses 100% recycled electrons, so you can feel good reading it).

Do you believe in the concept of the noble savage? For example, many Americans believe that the Native Americans ("indigenous peoples") were "in harmony with their environment" and that the (savage) white man destroyed that and forced them to live on reservations. Well, that's half-right... but do you know which half?

Also, note that the European mentality during the "age of exploration" was very similar, and many of the "primitive" tribes found by the Spanish/Dutch/English/French were seen as "noble savages."

Technologically advanced civilizations often look at "primitive" societies and believe that the primitive societies are "doing it right" because they can make a living without all the technology (and harsh chemicals, factories, etc). The mistake many people make is that they assume that if the "noble savages" had these options they would not use them, since they are (and want to be) "one with nature."

With reference to the Native Americans, many of their rituals and culture were designed to promote the "one with nature" idea. I would imagine this was more of a survival instinct in itself; they realized that if they raped the land they would eventually run out of land (and food).

If you ask an anthropologist you will discover that human beings have been raping the environment for as long as we have existed. Humans have never been "in harmony" with nature. Nomadic peoples would live in an area for a short while and dump their refuse in a certain location. Then, it would pile up, and they would move to another location -- this was easy because the number of people in a nomadic group was relatively small. Since the refuse was basically natural it would (after a year or more) be decomposed enough where the nomads would leave their trash heap at their current location and move back. Thus, many archeological digs will find multiple layers of refuse from nomadic peoples. Remember, though, that at the time, the refuse was 100% organic so it was "safe" to come back later because any "dangerous" materials would have decomposed.

Now, along comes agriculture and now some humans decide to stop their nomadic tendencies. Now the problem is you can't easily move when you generate waste. So you put the waste far away from your home and don't worry about it. As societies grew, the waste disposal became a serious problem, as it had to be dumped far away as to not affect the local population, but at the same time the population and city were expanding... and running into the waste disposal locations. At the same time, the waste being generated was becoming more and more toxic, as it was less and less organic matter.

You might be surprised to know that there is a speces of ants that also does something like this (I can't remember their name at the moment). The ants, which IIRC are in South America, can completely destroy the area where they live, and when they are done, they move on to another area. This is the true nature of plants and animals. The only thing to keep us (or the ants) in check is other predators. When those don't exist, there is nothing to stop us, as natural creatures, from destroying our environment and ourselves.

At least humans have the advantage of intelligence, so theoretically we could stop ourselves. But realize that most people aren't willing to go hungry and die just to save the environment -- a human life is incredibly short in the "big picture" of our environment. On those who have the luxury to worry about the environment will want to protect it... everyone else is just trying to make it until tomorrow.

Modern retreading isn't that great

[BCoates]

Judging from the number of seperated retreads I see on the side of the road.

Yesterday's cars were unsafe by modern standards in many ways, I'd guess in a world of no seatbelts, no airbags, no ABS, etc., the crappy tires weren't your biggest worry.

--
Benjamin Coates

Where?

[SeanAhern]

Ship it to me! ... I will take ... anything related to electronics...

Methinks Pyrosz must have a mailing address in China. :-)

Re:1.4 kg of lead per computer??????

[TheAwfulTruth]

Cuz if it wasn't we'd all be blind and sterile right now.

Re:There has to be a way to make this process bett

[ainsoph]

You obviously have not been to the third world. When I was in Nepal I witnessed welding sweatshops where kids sit around welding items wearing fake raybans.

No one has the knowledge or the resources to do what you propose. Nor would any of the companies who are dumping this cruft over there give two shites about doing it properly. They just send a boat back full of the stuff we are not legally allowed to get rid of , with a small check attached to the helm. Some lucky Chinese residents get the stash, without 'consent' and then act like hunter/gatherers trying to peel materials out of the stuff where they can get the money for a can of coke by selling the copper or whatever.

I think your idea is good. Why don't you go over there and try and start somthing like that? I'm serious, you would do a world of good.

Are you?

[doorbot.com]

These people are suffering. Doesn't that mean anything to you?

Suffering according to your viewpoint. Whether people are suffering due to economic depressions, repressive leadership, poor living conditions, a bad hair day, or the fact that they work with carcinogens, is irrelvant.

If you look at all the world's problems as if everyone can have a nice cushy life you're either stupid or naive. Think about this: if every single person in the world suddenly got $10,000,000 cash (other than an immediate jump in inflation), the poverty line would likewise jump by an equivalent amount.

Suffering is not defined as being poor. Nor is it defined as having "poor living conditions" or a "crummy job" (by what standards?). May I remind you that the world is not a utopia? Are these people suffering? I might think so... but only because I imagine myself in that position, and compare that to my current position, and I would not want to be scavenging computer corpses for parts.

If you want to spend your hard earned money to help give these people a leg up on life, go right ahead. But what about all the other people who need a leg up too? Are you going to help them too? What exactly would your criteria be for people who "need our help?"

Are you afraid you'll end up "like them?" Do you think if you make your little payments that you'll be spared that "suffering?"

</flamebait>

Re:Change garbage for progress.

[swillden]

Germany has very superior environmental standards.

And Germany is an economic powerhouse. Your example supports his point.

Poverty & ignorance together again...

[crovira]

There's nothing like not telling people that they're handling something that can kill them to kill them.

This crap belongs at the bottom of a disused mine.

Who the [expletive deleted] ships this [expletive deleted] out there? Might as well send them land mines. Then they can build dance floors out of 'em.

It's not like we're doing it by force...

[Inoshiro]

"The first way to start is simple... Don't throw this stuff into the trash."

Here's a suggestion: if China didn't want it, it'd stop doing it. They'll reap the problems of being loose with their environmental standards soon enough. Nothing you or I can say will do anything about it, they have to make their own mistakes. Once they do, they'll hopefully turn around and clean up their act.

Re:Taco, Google. Google, Taco.

[DarkZero]

Anyone know of a link to a place that would definitely handle the hazardous waste in a proper manner?

I know of a place. It's called "your local dump". You put your old parts in the car, you drive it over there, and they'll direct you to the hazardous waste pile (which is not as horrifying as it sounds, because most of it isn't hazardous until burned or placed in soil or drinking water). You can probably trust that it will not be going to China because the Chinese probably get their monitors in bulk from "hardware recycling companies", rather than by picking a monitor or two out of a bulk shipment of toxic materials including paint, motor oil, cleaning chemicals, old appliances, etc.

Re:There has to be a way to make this process bett

[mesozoic]

As repulsive as they may be, sweatshop conditions are hardly worse than what things were like in America and Britain during the Industrial Revolution. Working in a factory, where there is at least _some_ form of corporate management and _some_ capacity to improve on its own conditions, is far better than the alternatives: earn money at makeshift factories (like the ones shown in this article), or earn a fraction of that money working on a farm.

Of course, as long as the Communists are in power in China, farming will remain unprofitable and the vast numbers of poor people will be forced to do things like this to scrape together a living.

For clarity:

[ImaLamer]

My point was really just that we shouldn't have this "they deserve it" attitude against other humans, simply because they don't belong to the same fatherland.

Life is life. However I'm very schooled in history and the forces that drive the events in history. It's always been okay to kill the other guy but taboo to kill our own. We've used a number of tools to tell people it's okay, "terrorists", "pinko's", and all that jazz.

But I'm in the school of those who think this doesn't have to be the case. In order for us as a species to work together we need to shed those boundries, we need to care for all.

Still, I don't bother about worrying where the blame should go: doesn't matter.