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Recycling The First World, in the Third
simoncito writes "Ever wondered where that old useless printer ended up? BBC has a photo report about chinese villagers building ramshackle systems out of used and discarded first world computer parts. The effects on their surroundings are drastic - I never knew hardware was so poisonous." Worth a look if you aren't desensitized to suffering.
Anyone know the proper way to dispose of a monitor?
I always thought old monitors were supposed to sit around in your attic. Same goes for old printers.
Got thirty seconds?
Google has a few suggestions regarding monitor disposal.
Question: What is the opposite of investigative reporting?
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
Two words ... Office Space.
(Score:-1, Wrong)
Let's make a deal. I will tell you how to safely dispose of monitors if you agree to check the site you run to see if a story has already been posted about this exact topic in the past 45 or so days.
Deal?
The proper way to dispose of a working monitor is to give it to someone who needs one. The proper way to dispose of a non-working or obsolete monitor or television is to take it to a computer recycling center, who can safely crush the CRT and dispose of the toxic plastic and electronics.
This really bothers me. All those computers tossed aside. Sick.
As for the sweatshops, don't blame the computers. Blame their government.
TodayTM BillyJoelTM GoogleTMd for StitchTMes due to WindowsTM while RollerbladeTMing with an AppleTM and a PopsicleTM
"Anyone know the proper way to dispose of a monitor."
Ya'll should do what we do in Kansas. Whenever a TV stops working, we place the new one on top of the old one.
If you have too many of them there telly visions, you can place them in your front yard. Move them around the yard enough, and you'll never have to mow it!
There's also an interesting article here which has been previously mentioned on Slashdot, that might be worth a read. Cheers.
For those who ask silly questions like, "Does anyone know how to dispose of a monitor?"
All you have to do is make a little effort. If you call your local trash people, they almost always have a way to handle waste computer stuff, waste oil, etc. Unless you live in a small town or something.
It wasn't environmentally sound in anyway, but the last monitor I "disposed of" was several years ago. I took it out into the desert and blew it to pieces with a shotgun and a pistol. I hope the environment forgives me.
Moon Macrosystems. Sun's biggest competitor.
This has been covered and photographed long ago... by many other news organizations... what's different now?
Is to give it to your family members along with a slow-end computer. This is especially the case for those family members that use their computers for simple things like checking email and stocks.
grep >= ! == $your
This is the very best way to dispose of an old computer.
Usually, you can take your monitor to an appropriate dealer or electronics shop, where trained & certified technicians can safely deactivate, disassemble & dispose of the monitor for you. This is what I'm looking for right now.
Now that i have a new LCD, I wonder if they're trash-safe - I haven't researched if there's any hazards concerning say, the liquid in the display, or any other chemicals.
i'm amazed that i survived - an airbag saved my life.
Don't you know, it is our (The USA's) fault. Everything bad that happens in the world is our fault and everthing good that happens happens because we failed to stop the good from happening.
For those with no sense of humor, this is a joke
So my question is, where do these piles of hardware come from? Specifically, I mean -- At what point in the chain do we hand everything off to a central supplier who sells it out of the country? Who are the companies? My local hazardous waste place is how far removed from 13-year-olds dipping circuit boards in tin and lead to "make them look new"?
NPR did a story a while back about infectious diseases being shipped worldwide at new speeds because of container ships full of old tires. (Mosquitoes bred in water collecting in the tires, and the container ship system meant transport speeds were far greater.) Made you really think -- our waste is a desirable commodity somewhere? Desirable enough that people will pay good rates to ship old tires to the third world? The unintended consequence of viral transmission was pretty nasty.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
How can you tell the difference between a "reputable" electronics recycler and someone whose contributing to the poisining of people who are all ready in a bad position?
I know I've gone through my share (or more than my share) of electronics in my day, and I'm afraid that a lot of it has just made it's way to the landfill. With computers becoming obsolete at the rate they do, how can I get rid of this stuff without wasting the reusable metals or poisoning complete strangers?
- sig? who is this sig of which you speak?
Rifle Range.
but somebody's got to do it. Beats working at McDonald's.
This must be just one of many such places around the world, anywhere where human life is cheap...
If it wasn't for the suffering of the people working on these old boxes, I would say it looked a lot like my basement as a teenager. But at least I had window fans to help move the air flow when I did any kind of work on the old boards.
Later when I worked for a computer repair place, we had a recycling service. I kinda wonder how many machines I chucked into the bin, ended up over there.
"To Do Is To Be" - Socrates, "To Be Is To Do" - Sartre, "Do Be Do Be Do" - Sinatra
But it is his (CmdrTaco's) job. He runs the blasted site and he posted the article. You know it appears that slashdot is not the slashdot that I remember.
What happened???
Slashdot has an amazing following. If an article were to run describing live babies being lowered into boiling oil for money, at least 30% of the talkbacks would be dimwitted rationalizations about how it's somehow ok because after all there's a market for it. The next 30% would be facetious comments serving the function of nervous, cathartic laughter. The remaining percentage is our faint hope for improvement.
Methinks this stems from the good old "the monitor is the computer misconception.
- Peter
Anyone know the proper way to dispose of a monitor?
Mail it to China.
--saint
is to first figure out what the correct response is, cost that response, and build it into the price of whatever product one might consider. then, the real price is evident. we are as a society a bit too removed from reality. reality costs! my property taxes are very high because i have chosen to live in a district where the schools are the absolute best. fortunately, the choice was available to me. it seems we have left too much to choice and those who can afford it. 2c.
Question: What is the opposite of investigative reporting?
Answer: Slashdot.
Moon Macrosystems. Sun's biggest competitor.
yes, sorry, should have mentioned the sarcasm...it actually pisses me off...people cant properly dispose of potentially dangerous objects...
So that's where my Amiga went.
I know how to do this, I have been doing this for so long, I can't believe you guys are still searching for the right way.
I have it.
I box it up and put it in my guest room closet. Problem solved.
room101 -- how much can you stand before they break you?
(they always break you eventually)
Electronic Industries Alliance.
Go ahead and flame me but isn't this about where most non-recyclable stuff is ending up? I mean come on, not everything is recycable when you bring it into a recycling center. Therefore, they handle it the American way: Not in my backyard.
It's toxic waste. If you ask to have it put into your backyard for a smaller price then those countries I'm sure they'll be glad to deposit it there. Seriously, that's what's going on.
It's NOT like they don't know what's going over there! They know it's crap that can't be recycled. And those countries are getting paid for it to be deposited. Totally legal.
So flame me but it's like nuclear waste. It exists and no one wants it. Can't recycle ALL of it either.
Here and here. I don't really expect CmdrTaco to remember every story that's ever gone up, but that took me about 10 seconds of searching in the Older Stuff section.
Are LCDs any easier to dispose cleanly? I am just curious because everything here is talking about CRTs.
qslack.com
Tech TV ran a great program on this some time ago.
Check it out here.
A co-worker of mine has a friend in China, and it is something that he really takes seriously. He actually wrote an article in our IT newsletter a few months ago, talking about the waste that we dump into Asia. All sorts of countries are doing this. Companies are paying to dump this junk off to the cheapest landfill. It is sick. It is something that we need to take seriously. Large ships take this stuff to Asia every day.
I also read that there are start-up companies that are trying to take this stuff and dismantle it properly. Recycling this stuff, and appropriately preventing serious toxic hazards.
The first way to start is simple... Don't throw this stuff into the trash. Landfills are becoming full of this stuff. Donate working computer stuff, or try to find a suitable recycling facility. It is important to realize that this can be done with all electronics.
ComputerRecycle.com.
Toner is pretty much just plastic. Just mashed up into a plastic dust.
I am also in favor of shipping all our garbage into space. I will rely on huge technology advancements in the future to help clean it all up.
Moon Macrosystems. Sun's biggest competitor.
Of course.
There are no Linux / BSD users running on Athlon XP 2600's, because those lean mean operating systems don't need that much power, right?
The upgrade race has nothing to do with the OS. It has to do with geeks having dick-waving contests.
I mean come on the country that gives about as many civil rights to its people as Bill Gates distributes Linux.
These people would have lived CRAP lives regardless of the horrible evil of computer waste products there. It must not be too severe or the Chinese government would be fast to stop it. We all know they could do so if they wanted to. However it provides these people with some form of income and keeps them out of the hair of the rest of the country.
I have traveled the world and the things being condemned here amount to nothing in comparison to what others suffer through elsewhere. Hell I would gie money to the Christian Childrens Fund before thinking twice about if my toner cartridge was going to be salvaged in China. And while on TONER and its evils...SWEET N LOW is a cancerous agent too...as is BBQ's food.
Razzious Domini
I could be a GREAT KARMA WHORE if I could just shed the few morals I have left.
They say toner ink is a possible carcinogen, article is simply FUD.
I noticed you don't have evidence to the contrary. Comparing toner ink to asbestos and drawing a conclusion on its toxicity is bad logic.
As with broken parts or just parts, do the following: launch them in a rocket and put it in space.
Here's why we don't launch our garbage into space:
"That will be $300,000 to throw away that computer sir. Would you like a receipt?"
--z
In Soviet Russia, the Beowulf cluster imagines you!
If there were a natural disaster in China or elsewhere would you simply say: "Oh well, they aren't 'mericans!"
Your view on human life really makes me ashamed of being a fellow countrymen of yours.
Plus you obviously don't realize the situation in China. I don't think you can just get up and leave China if you'd like. You don't wake up and say "I think I'm going to America to start a new life!"
But this issue has been brought up before on slashdot. "last time I looked China wasn't the 51st state" Then why should we have a right to dump our waste there. Not In My Back Yard! But to make it worse... when the kids play in the dump you think they deserve it.
Is it America's fault? I don't really know the _truth_, yet I don't see why I shouldn't care about my fellow man either way.
Get your Unix fortune now!
HP offers product end-of-life return programs for HP and other manufacturers' hardware in a number of geographic areas. The terms and availability of these programs vary by geography because of differences in regulatory requirements and local customer demand. Click here for info.
Thus I have taken the liberty of revising your list:
These workers are sorting plastic by heating it with a cigarette lighter and sniffing the fumes. They complained of headaches.
Okay, first of all, is the First World supposed to have a monopoly on common sense?
I agree, this is all tragic, but this is hardly the fault of the First World. We're not forcing China to take our old computer parts. They have a government that clearly doesn't care about the people. Unfortunately the only way this is ever going to change in China is for them to have a revolution.
It would be nice if we could do it for them, but the fact is, we can't. Sometimes people must be responsible for their own goverment. We can't realistically overthrow China without serious repercussions. If the people overthrow the government though, I don't think a whole lot of countries are going to be too upset about it.
So, yeah, I'm sorry this is happening, but eventually, it's going to be one thing too many and the people are going to revolt. There's not a whole lot anyone outside of China can do until then. They have to come to terms with the fact that their government doesn't protect them or even care about them.
At least we don't have to worry about poisioning /. Seeing as how this story is recycled!
--Should work--
This is going to sound really odd, but I sincerly feel bad some days for the fact that I tread so heavily on the earth (not weight morons, enviormentally).
I feel bad about the fact that I generate trash with everything I do. I want to go completely paperless, because I don't like the idea of killing the rainforest for paper. I know that some cutting in forests is actually good for the forest, but few loggers do that.
Even if I didn't use paper, I still get things in the mail, I have packaging, etc...
My computers, my music equipment, my house, my car (esp my car), generate waste.
Even the food I eat, I consider waste. I want to be a vegitarian some days, just because of enviormental impact of hog farms, overfishing, etc... I would like to be in touch with the earth more- kinda of like how you think of indians (opps, native americans), of being.
You may ask, well why don't you. It's because I can't. I am in college. I live in Boston (well in 6 days I do). I can't plant myself a garden. I can't rid myself of paper. I can't use solar/wind/geothermal power in my apartment. I know that there are little things that I can do, and I do those, but it feels small in comparison. Well, at least I won't have my car in Boston, so the T should save some energy somewhere. Does anyone else feel bad about their impact on the enviorment? I am not an activist, just a concerned person. Even if something actually doesn't 'impact' something drastically, I still feel bad for that disruption.
Tibbon
tibbon.com
I agree with you, but the point of his little blurb at the end of the articles--besides making him feel better about being so lazy--is to encourage discussion.
It's what all great TV anchors do. Now, if he only punctuated and paused his speech with completely predictable fake drama...
Yeah, somebody forgot a decimal there somewhere, or possibly put a "k" in front of that "g" mistakenly. But don't wait for a journalist to catch any math errors, they don't require numeric literacy for those liberal arts degrees those journalists get.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
Why else would Microsoft just send you a replacement mouse with no hassle, and without you sending them your "broken" one back? It's cheaper for them to take the hit with the mouse (or whatever) than for them to dispose of all the returned mice, since they are considered hazardous.
(everything in this post is from memory, which means it may not be 100% correct)
If it wasn't for the fact that this is pretty much the way the USA gets dealt with by the rest of the world. You're kidding but a ridiculously large number of people who would say the exact same thing mean it.
Appended to the end of comments you post. 120 chars.
Short version is that you pay IBM $30, and you can stuff a box (of a certain size) with as much hardware as will fit, and ship it back to IBM via UPS. IBM will then refurbish the stuff and donate it to charity, or will recycle it.
s er vice.shtml
http://www.ibm.com/ibm/environment/products/pcr
Anyone know the proper way to dispose of a monitor?
Now thats the dumbest thing I've heard in a while. How do you think those monitors got to china anyway? People improperly dumping them in the woods, and then the monitors get up and walk to china? C'mon!
These montors and other computer junk gets sent to china because its collected properly here in the US at our transfer stations and recycling facilities. This stuff is "recycled", just like scrap metals, plastics, and paper. "Recycling" means that its collected, and sold en mass to bigger companies willing to buy it. Then, those companies sell it to bigger companies, and so on. Apparently, the end of the chain is China, and I'm fine with that.
Its like we're shipping our computer crap over there and forcing it on them. Its bought by companies over there, and shipped. Those companies employ people to process the material. Its not my fault that they don't use respirators! For crying out loud... there's a reason why we're the #1 industrialized nation, and they're a "3rd world" nation, and its not because we've spend hundreds of years feeling guilty for other nations.
Skiers and Riders -- http://www.snowjournal.com
- Put monitor in trunk of car.
- Drive somewhere unobtrusive with your co-workers Samir Nayeenanajar and Michael Bolton.
- Crank up some gangsta-rap.
- Kick, stomp, and hit the monitor with a baseball bat.
- Repeat last step.
If that doesn't work, you could always set the building on fire.this was happening far before president bush...
Ah, yes, the high-tech China of the future. I also hear they test power cables by licking them to see if they feel a current and checking CD-ROM drives to see if they spin by placing them against their groins and seeing if they vibrate too much.
--Chag
For what it's worth, they at least included Europe in the blame game. This isn't pure America-bashing, this is liberal "I feel guilty that I have money and you don't" self-loathing. Hey, whatever works, but I sleep OK at night as it is.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
This is the first time I've ever heard anyone say that Asbestos is not cancer causing.
Is that true? Anyone?
For those that would die defending it, Freedom
has a sweet taste that the protected will never know.
Sure, saying "asbestos causes cancer" is FUD, if by FUD you mean "Fear," "Uncertainty," and "Doubt".
In this case, however, FUD does not mean "unverifiable myth."
If you're curious about the level of toxicity of asbestos, try going here.
The upshot of that site reads as follows:
Furthermore, many kinds of toner are listed as possible human carcinogens. One of the reasons for this may be that conclusive evidence has not yet been gathered (read: powerful lobby to defund government studies).
The first 5 pages of this Google search yields results you might find handy.
blog
what an ignorant selfish post. The fact that those poor kids are born in a country whose economy is subjugated to the rest of the world's should not justify the fact that they have to play in the midst of piles of toxic waste. Globalization doesn't justify this.
Saying "if you don't like it move" is showing how little you know about mobility in other parts of the world. You missed the whole point of the article. The comfortable life we lead here in the US is based and dependent on the fact that people earn $1.50 a day in toxic conditions to dismantle the computer we can buy at Costco for $500 and try to recycle some parts out of it once we've dumped it. Would you like to have been born there and not here? Why would those people have fewer rights in their life? Because of their "government"?? Gimme a break, read a book, open your eyes.
Sergio
Alang is a small stretch of beach along the coast of India where a surprising number of ships are eventually scrapped. Instead of a dry dock, the ships are rammed full speed into the oily beach, then are picked over by workers for scrap. There are 35,000 men ripping apart the things with hammers and sledges. The welders use oxygen and cooking propane, the most skilled of them getting the choice assignment of ventilating fuel tanks to get rid of the fumes (yes, the welders ventilate the explosive fumes). The place is a filthy mess of pollution and there's an estimated fatality a day. By all estimates, it's basically Hell on Earth.
I read about this in an article in the Atlantic Monthly (Aug 2000). The piece detailed the horrible conditions, the economic motivation (wrecking a ship filled with toxic waste is an expensive proposition here in the West), and the efforts of enviromental groups to put a stop to it. But the real eye opener was the reaction of the Indians.
Many were pissed that the industrialized world wanted to stop the wrecking and considered such efforts hypocritical. They are not stupid and they know the risks they're facing. They are more than willing to take those risks for steady, reliable income. Many of them point to the pollution and conditions in Dehli that are worse than at Alang. They laugh at what concerns Greenpeace in their tidy offices in London and Holland.
Do I think it's wrong to ship toxic waste to these countries instead of taking care of it at home? Yes. Should I condemn people who are not really that much different from Americans during the Depression from trying to get by? No. These things are never black and white.
[/rant]
PS: I have heard that some regulation has come to Alang and other wrecking operations of late, so my Atlantic Monthly article is likely out of date. Apologies in advance. Also, I found two stories online about the issue: in Wired and The Baltimore Sun. I have not read them all the way through, though, and highly recommend the dead tree version of the Monthly piece if you can find it.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
Most reputable computer companies provide recycling services for their and other manufacturers' equipment.
Try HP Product Recycling Services
In the US, it costs $13-34, including shipping. There are cheaper solutions, but you risk having your monitor end up in somebody's backyard in China. HP at least operates 2 recycling plants in Roseville, CA, and Nashville, TN.
One cathode ray tube contains 5-7 pounds of lead.
That kids not taking off the Dell label! He's putting it on! And doesn't that look like Austin...
Someone you trust is one of us.
I can't tell if you're trolling or not but since I've seen a couple of comments here that seem to agree with your position, I feel the need to reply.
As for the enviornmental concerns, last time I looked China wasn't the 51st state. If their government can't control it then it's their problem not ours.
You're a little heartless, aren't you? "Hey, if it's not my fault, I don't wanna hear about it." These people are suffering. Doesn't that mean anything to you? And as far as the thought that environmental concerns outside of the US isn't our concern, what do you say about the chemicals that are being released into the atmosphere when they burn all that stuff? Toxins don't respect international boundaries.
Amazing how America can be portrayed as the bad guy all around the world.
I didn't see anything in the article specifically pointing the blame finger at the US. But it's worth noting that we are making this problem worse with our throw-away society. I would wager that the average American buys a new computer every 3-4 years. And they don't just buy a new processor and more memory, they buy a whole new friggin' computer! New keyboard, new motherboard, new monitor, new printer, etc. even though their old one is still functioning. If more people would simply buy what they need instead of being lazy and buying the package deal they get from Dell or Gateway, there wouldn't be so much hazardous computer trash to get rid of. Hell, even if you don't want to deal with the hastle of installing your own components into your old motherboard, just tell Dell or Gateway that you don't want the monitor. If they say "No, you have to buy the monitor as well!" you say "No, I dont. I'm leaving." No one is forcing you to add to the waste problem of the world.
Face facts, if you're stupid enough to inhale fumes from PC parts you're burning you should be dead. Those who don't die make money.
Did you read the article? These people have the equivalent of a few years of schooling at most. How many American elementary school kids do you think realize how much toxic stuff is in computers? These people don't have the education or knowledge to realize what they're doing. And even if they did, these people are desperate for a job. I'm sure that you, sitting at your computer munching away at a jelly donut or gulping down a SuperSize McDonald's meal don't fully realize how desperate one can be when you have a choice between a job that gives you headaches or watching your family starve to death.
If you don't like where you live ... move. It's like Sam Kinnison used to say, "You live in a freaking desert. Move."
Again, these people don't have any money. It takes money to start a new life. And where the hell do you suggest they go? Oh, that's right: this isn't your problem. As for the Kinnison quote, keep in mind that he was a comedian. You're not supposed to live your life in accordance with his routine.
I suspect America is "portrayed as the bad guy all around the world" because of awful human beings such as yourself who openly laugh at the less fortunate.
GMD
watch this
"But this issue has been brought up before on slashdot. "last time I looked China wasn't the 51st state" Then why should we have a right to dump our waste there. Not In My Back Yard! But to make it worse... when the kids play in the dump you think they deserve it."
In a fair quote from George Carlin...
Fuck the children!
"then we dump them back on the third world when we want to get rid of our obsolete junk. "
No - we do not go over there and dump them on the streets. They send their money to us and ASK us for our discards in exchange, all in the pursuit of profit.
Anything you say will be held against you.
I have wondered for a long time why they dont use old computer monitors as TVs. Free (used) monitor, with the minimal cost of a NTSC to VGA converter, and you have a cheap hi resolution monitor...
The local facility that takes old batteries, used oil, etc. should also take old computers.
the second world ended with the fall of the USSR first world = Canada, US, Europe second world = iron curtain countries third world = developing countries
Just mashed up into a plastic dust.
Which is probably why it is considered carcinogenic. If you buy sand from a chemical company, it will be labelled as carcinogenic. (I thought that was hillarious the first time I saw it.) I think anything with a small enough particle size is considered cancer-causing until proven otherwise.
My dingo ate your honor student.
Isn't this the same topic that about a quarter of the "Ask Slashdot" threads are about? :-)
Interesting to see that lead is now a horribly toxic substance, at least to the BBC reporter. When I was a kid we played with mercury with few precautions, and all fishing line weights were lead.
The pictures are pure photojournalism hype at its worst. Yeah, let's put some kid in front of that pile of junk and have them make a face!
One from NPR on 'recycling' in China (from April): http://www.npr.org/programs/watc/features/2002/apr /computers/index.html
And a more recent report on recycling in the US:
http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2002/ jul/recycling/index.html
Who created those terms?? It sounds like we're dealing with planets, and even then 'the third world' (third rock) would refer to everyone! ...
I found the story informative the first time I read it on slashdot. Or was that the second time. Maybe there are more, but I think 2 examples is enough to illustrate my point. Would be nice to have a repeated news item mention previous ones in the editor's comments (nice of michael for doing it in the 1st link above).
/.-related angle. However, if /. covered it earlier, they should at least mention it.
Btw, I don't see a problem if the news item was covered by other organizations at an earlier time because there may be some new
This is not my sig.
OSDN
50 Nagog Park
Acton, MA 01720
perferably COD.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
maybe after generations of people pass they will evolve with the ability to withstand the carcinogens and poisons and also have cool cell phones grafted in there heads. :)
or maybe they will just get yelled at by the US more as we continue to contribute to the problem.
Ave Molech Setting
Where is this First World, anyway?
I always thought the First World referred to
Europe since the Renaissance, the New World referred
to the Americas, with the Third World being any
nonindustrialized ("developing") country.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
I think I saw a picture of this in National Geographic a few years back. The picture was of some ladies on an apparently scorching hot dockside somewhere in China. Ships would unload giant piles of computer boards and chips and it was their job to sort through this. Imagine piles of 80's-era boards nearly 15' high nearly melting in the tropical sun. When I saw this, I thought to myself that this had to be one of the world's worst jobs.
this is just another example of why communism is so bad. if the chinese people could elect their officials perhaps they would have open markets and a better school system. anyway, that's my 2 cents
Ok this isn't making me feel sorry. First off, these people are being made to suffer by a government that does not realize that the people far outweigh the amount of army there is...plus the army folks may end up joining the real folks when the call for revolution. On the other hand, this kind of reason is why I still have junk laying around the house for one, and for two why I never throw this stuff away until it's TOTALLY useless.
Gorkman
Naturally Slashdot has covered this topic before... according to this previous /. article China had banned the import of U.S. Electronic trash.
/. threads.
Also here is a previous article on recycling costs added onto PCs.
Nothing like spending the few extra minutes to search your own website for a topic. On the other hand, this is a more important, concrete, and immediate problem than hypothetical flame wars associated with the DMCA/RIAA/MPAA that are the meat of most
What is music when you despise all sound?
And that other picture of the kids sorting computer chips -- I know that as well. I used to kid with my dad that he was running a sweat shop with the hours I put in -- now I have proof dammit! ;-)
He did pay well, though. *cough*...Ugh...brb, need some asprin again.
Trolls lurk everywhere. Mod them down.
If you are in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, Resource Concepts will take your old PC equipment. They attempt to refurbish and sell items that still work, and they can safely recycle items that don't.
Asbestos causes cancer. It can take as little as 1 particle to manifest itself into cancer in 20 years. Once asbestos is atached to your lungs, it doesn't go away.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I want to go completely paperless, because I don't like the idea of killing the rainforest for paper.
God dammit!! Why do people keep saying this?!? Paper comes from trees specifically planted to produce paper! It doesn't come from the trees in the rainforests! The rainforests are being cut down because space is needed for agricultural development in 3rd world countries. Do you really think trees are falling in South America and then being shipped to the USA to make paper??
Your post (which someone modded as 'Insightful') seems to ask what you can do for the environment. Here's my suggestion: make sure you really understand the issues. Because when you start spouting things like "killing the rainforest for paper" you make ALL of us look like idiots. It's too easy for the pro-big-business, anti-environment forces to point to someone like you and paint all concerned people as morons who want to save the rainforests "because Sting said so".
GMD
watch this
It only takes a few seconds. Why making it harder wor CmdrTaco & Co.?
feel bad about humanity.
.. its not going to have much of an impact on the 'planet's' life span.
.
if we pollute the planet and use up its natural resources to the point where we can survive
the worse we (as humanity) can do is kill ourselves off
the planet will recover/repair itself after we are dead.
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
Okay, moving story. Poor third world people. Clearly evil Western powers at work.
But... can we trust the source. The quoted Basel Action Network says that a pile of 500 computers contains 717Kg of lead. That just doesn't sound plausible. Does every computer really have 3.15 pounds of lead in it? Where? Not in the case (all plastic and steel usually). Lead is used in PCB manufacturing, but has anyone heard of a 3lb. PCB?Lead is not a major component of ICs. Perhaps if it was an old portable computer is might have Lead-Acid batteries, but I very much doubt there's more than 3 pounds of the stuff in any portable.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I am sceptical of this figure. If their basic stats are wrong, how much can we trust the rest of the reporting? It seems emotive and biased. I'm sure there is a story here and a legitimate concern, but I'd like to see the real facts.
Sailing over the event horizon
Do you really think that that they are paying the Chinese to take "toxic waste" as well as paying to ship it to them? If that were the case, it would be far cheaper to ship the equipment halfway, as in , dump it in the middle of the Pacific.
Would you not think it more likely that the Chinese companies are paying for, not toxic waste but, used equipment. Which these companies then canibalize for parts, hoping to resell said parts for a profit? Their probably paying the shipping too.
Furthermore, the recycling companies that take this equipment in the US are doing basically the same thing with the equipment. But, in the US the government has laws restricting the methods that can be used. These environmental laws not only keep our environment relatively safe, they also raise the cost of the recycled parts considerably which makes it hard for the american recyclers to compete with the Chinese ones. Not to mention that the Chinese labor laws also give them a significant profit advantage over the US. This is a major reason why so few US companies do this recycling but, there are probably many in places such as China
From an environmental standpoint, the things shown in this article are atrocious. The same is true from a human rights standpoint. But, this is definitely not a situation forced upon them by the US. The only people that can really beleive that are the same people that feel that gun manufacturers are responsible for murders.
Why the morn you responed to disgusts meas well as you, I felt obligated to respond to one of your statements:
" Then why should we have a right to dump our waste there"
its not like we just go over and dump it. there is a financial transaction going on. China's government should take action to stop this. I think it would do the US a world of good if they didn't ship our trash elseware. except for the original poster, he we should send to china. perferable with no money and just the close on his back. Lets see how fast he puts up with headaches in order not to starve.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
5. Profit!
Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
I love it. You managed to make it into a Linux vs. MS thing. Post it AC and run. Good job.
Lot of neat stuff used to show up. Dirt cheap. Stepper motors - $.50. Optical encoders - $2. I got a unused W.Bergman 100:1 gear reducer for $1. It was about $200 about 20 years ago. Can't image what it would go for now.
But all the technology changed. It used to be all discrete componets you could reuse/recycle, vacuum tubes, transisters, etc... Now you can hardly reuse that stuff. It's all surface mount stuff.
Recycling raw materials is borderline economical even for the Chinese. Gold plating is only a few angstroms thick. Composite plastics can't be recycled that I know of.
Of course, since all the stuff is made there to begin with, perhaps the Chinese ought to think about manufacturing the stuff so it's easier and safer to recyle.
simply wallowing is not the answer.
;)
Fine, you feel bad. So what are you gonna do about it? Short term? Long term?
Short term- you could buy your food from local farmers markets and buy organic in supermarkets.
(remember: Organic means poop!)
Don't buy soaps and shampoos from companies that test on animals (you can get a list from peta.com- my wife does this and you can still buy producst from Target... just not all of 'em.)
Don't buy products from companies who "pollute" the environment.
For the mid term- the next car you buy should be a hybrid. Get in touch with people who have gone completely off the grid (hydro, wind, solar, etc.)
and see how they made the transition.
Marry someone who can sew and make your own clothes. (or do it yrself!)
Make a plan, and DO IT. Its gonna cost you more money, its gonna take up more time and effort to do what everyone else does; but no one said character building was easy.
If you can dream it, you can do it. If you whine about it, you'll get the smack-down you deserve.
If you do it and whine about it, then yr just like me!
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
Watch and learn: http://www.rextuff.com
http://www.slurrey.com
On the second page of the article it says: a pile of 500 computers contains 717kg of lead, 1.36kg of cadmium, 863 grams of chromium and 287 grams of mercury . So where is my PC hiding that almost 1.5kg (about 3 pounds) of lead??
And exactly what does this have to do with computer disposals?
Call your friendly neighborhood recycling place and ask. Ask what they do. Ask who they deliver to. Then ask them. And Ask and ask and ask.
If need be, try to visit the facilities. If you can't get a straight answer out of them they might be blowing you off cuz they don't care or they might be doing the wrong thing. Find out what your state, county, and city laws are regarding recycling. Follow up, make phone calls, and ask questions.
If you care, you make the extra effort. If you don't, you stick it in ebay.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
Seattle's county, King County, handles solid waste disposal, and launched a project two years ago that turned into a pretty serious change in how computers are disposed of at dumps. Yes, people can still try to slip in electronics, but you can no longer drop off monitors, and other CRTs will follow. The county works with local businesses, and has found safe and well-documented U.S. sources to send the products to.
For instance, monitors are disassembled, and the tubes sent to Pennsylvania, where the glass is smelted, and the lead separate for reuse. (The poster who mentioned that LCDs change this equation are right: no new smelters for recycling are being built because CRTs will no longer exist outside specialized uses, so existing smelters will handle the tens of millions of discards.)
Likewise, circuits and other components are sent to companies that often offer job retraining and are nonprofits to safely, under OSHA rules, extract useful materials. One outfit in the SF Bay Area can even get usable epoxy out of circuit boards which can be reused.
The real problem with computing as with white goods (appliances) and other products like cars is that the manufacturers are only required to use safe techniques in building them. Disposal is not part of the price tag. This is changing gradually in Europe, and it's clear to all concerned that if there were a federal mandate, we'd all see savings over the lifecycle of the product: we wouldn't have surprise billion-dollar cleanup funds, and would stop poisoning the rest of the world.
HP and other companies have taken some great steps with toner cartridges and some other limited products that they build in such a way that they can be easily disassembled and much of the parts reused or refashioned.
Freelance tech journalist for the Economist, MIT Technology Review, Macworld, and others
Wow, the responses are just heart wrenching. Even the AC ones. Grow some balls and post under your ID.
Anyway, everyone likes to point out that it was with a lack of compassion that I posted. I didn't. I have no compassion for governments who can't get their act together. Do you think you or I ship monitors to China? It's called a market and someone must be buying what someone else is selling.
As for the kids who only have a grade school education, maybe I am wrong about this, but most kids know that after a while if they do A and feel the effects in terms of B they can relate the two.
"Hmmm, I sniffed boards all day and now I am sick." X 30 days and you have a winner.
No one answered the simple question of what these people would do if they didn't have the scrap? Sure, they make a dollar a day or so, but that might be enough for them. China hasn't provided jobs, so what should they do?
Someone said, "If there were a natural disaster in China or elsewhere would you simply say: "Oh well, they aren't 'mericans!"
Well, yes. You are a twit. A natural disaster can't be helped. No one makes a decision to say, "Hey, tornado come here." That's why it's called natural.
For the person who said, "You're a little heartless, aren't you? "Hey, if it's not my fault, I don't wanna hear about it." These people are suffering. Doesn't that mean anything to you? And as far as the thought that environmental concerns outside of the US isn't our concern, what do you say about the chemicals that are being released into the atmosphere when they burn all that stuff? Toxins don't respect international boundaries."
Not heartless. Tired of people blaming us for someone else's problems. If their government wants this to happen it will. Don't tell me they can't stop it. They've been able to stop democracy and religion. They should be able to stop computer parts.
As for toxins knowing no bounds, I put myself in the "earth can recover from pretty much anything" group.
And against my better judegement, the AC wennie who said, "oil is a reserve that is running low, and somehow fucking americans think they're so special they can use all the oil they want. i don't even see america *trying* to find ways to cut down on its oil consumption"
Um, why should we? Oil is running low? Crap, better tell that to the countries who supply it. They will want to do something about it.
This has been your daily, I am so pissed I am going to respond message, signing off.
Ever wonder why you can't get passenger car retreads here in the States (commercial vehicle retreads ARE available, though)? Why such a practice was made illegal? You will hear stories about the retreads causing accidents, flying apart at speed, etc. While I am sure these stories are true, I sincerely doubt each and every tire did this (just as all Firestone tires didn't explode, either). If you look through older "tech" magazines (think old 1940-50-60's Pop Sci and Pop Mech magazines), you would find articles on properly choosing retreads, what to look for, and what to avoid. The business was a legitimate business, and while there were most certainly shady deals done, I am as equally certain that the majority of retreaders could do a good job, that would retread a tire to last a while longer.
I think, but have no proof, that the retread business was eating into tire manufacturer's business, and, well - you know the rest of the story - lobbiests, campaign contributions, etc (of course, there may be merit also in the idea of steel-belted radials being unable to retread because the new rubber couldn't bond properly to the old - but it makes you also wonder if these weren't invented to fight AGAINST retreads)...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Well, Taco should have phrased that:
Anyone know the proper way to dispose of a monitor, in my area?
That, sadly, is not an easy-to-answer question. It's real hit-and-miss as to if there is someplace nearby to dispose of stuff like CRTs.
--snip--
According to the Basel Action Network, a pile of 500 computers contains 717kg of lead, 1.36kg of cadmium, 863 grams of chromium and 287 grams of mercury - all poisonous metals.
--snip--
Something is up with these numbers. The last time I checked, my computer didn't have a 3 pound lead weight in it. What should these figures really be?
If the Chinese could safely and efficiently recover the components of computers, they could become world leaders for suppling lead, cadmium, chromium, and mercury. They're getting these computers for next to nothing, and it costs money to mine and purify metals. Granted these metals will have to be purified from chips, capacitors, etc..., but the process should be easier and less costly than purifying these same metals from the ground. With the right equipment and people, almost anything is possible.
The only problem with this is that human life and labor are very "cheap" in China. Knocking off a few thousand people won't bother the Chinese government unless other countries bitch and complain about human rights violations.
The only hope for change in this situation is for China to continue its "Westernization", which I recently saw on PBS television. I was really shocked to see so many Americans over there fluorishing in "Western" cities. The real surprize was you can do almost anything over there, except criticize the government. Beijing just wreaks of capitalism (Chinese communist governemt gets 50% of whatever you make).
Take the quiz
h /w orld/2002/disposable_planet/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_dept
If everyone lived like me we'd need 3.7 planets. I'm sure this is pretty alarmist but we're definately screwing up this planet. I mean it 50 degrees outside in the Bay Area during the middle of August, WTF?
Damn...that's messed up. My mom was born from that province... so sad to think that her home town is now the e-wasteland of china... so depressing.
i submitted this back in april ... stealing all my posts! :)
a pr /computers/index.html
http://www.npr.org/programs/watc/features/2002/
members are seeing something, your seeing an ad
If you think about it, it does SEEM this way - think about how many types of cancers there are where it is stated "If you have 'x' inflammatory disease, you are at greater risk of 'y' cancer".
Asbestos and inhaled particles from toner would cause irritation and inflammation of the lungs - so would dirty, polluted air. So would cigarette smoke. What about ovarian cancer? Inflammation caused by cysts on the ovaries is cited as one possible risk factor.
Of course, this doesn't explain all cancers - but maybe we don't know what is causing the inflammation? Also, we don't hear about those with sore backs (muscle or spinal inflammation) getting cancer in those areas - but maybe it has to be long term "minor" inflammation (ie, minor in that it is long-term and unnoticeable)?
Can anyone back me up, or am I hallucinating again...?
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
The problem here that I see is that human life is a precious thing. And when I apply my values and philosophies to other places, I am appalled that people in China are so poor that they have to subsist by stripping old, dangerous electronic equipment.
Unfortunately, there's a flip side of that which makes things even more tragic:
there's places in the world so desperately poor that stripping old, dangerous electronic equipment is actually a step up for them.
This is the heart of the problem, and why I can't condemn what happens in China (or the Indian ship-breakers). Our wealthy society discards these materials because they no longer have value to us. However, they have sufficient value as to advance the lives of some poor souls overseas, where their lives are so wretched as to make scrap-sifting a viable living.
Despite all the hazardous material that can lower life expectancy through exposure, a lot of these people are so poorly fed and cared for that it makes virtually no difference what sort of danger they face - they'll die young regardless. It's awful, but it's reality. And projecting our standards onto their lives won't help them, really - it'll just make us feel less guilty about the reality.
Western civilization went through a period like this - it was called the Industrial Revolution, and it lasted almost a century. Now it's happening elsewhere, and the people who are suffering now are doing so so that the generations that come after them may have a better chance of success. I'm not saying things are identical today, but the privileged life we Westerners live today (and especially we North Americans) was built on the backs of our ancestors who worked as essentially conscript labor and died young.
Think about it. I may be horrified by the life these people in China are living, but for many of them it's their only chance at a better life. That's not our fault. I'm not saying we should waste more to give them something to do. I'm just saying they are part of the system, and if for some reason we're all able to stop disposing of monitors someday they'll find another job that nobody else in the global economy wants to do. It may be a safer job. But then again, it may not.
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
A friend of mine spent months doing biological research in the Gobi desert in China. They visited small villages and towns in the middle of absolute nowhere; places where they had never even seen a caucasian; through big cities and small. He drove thousands of miles, through just about every type of terrain imaginable.
One of the things that struck him was the incredible amount of pollution taking place, and the complete lack of consciousness of the problem. Chemicals being dumped straight out of factories into rivers, etc. That sort of thing.
They spent some time in a windy little desert village where the dust swirled thickly. You couldn't see too far when the wind blew, and people sometimes wore those disposable white breathing masks when going out. It was a mining town, but when my friend finally realized just what they mined in that town, they got the hell out. It wasn't desert dust enveloping the town, but asbestos dust from the mine and surrounding landscape. The inhabitants either didn't know or didn't care about the implications of breathing high volumes of asbestos dust on a constant basis. Certainly the government didn't care. But so it goes for China, the most polluted country on the planet.
So when I hear that discarded stuff from the US makes its way to China to add to the pollution there, I'm not surprised at all. The utter lack of controls on pollution by the government does indeed take a toll on the population. This is just another of thousands of instances of large scale pollution taking place in China. While I do not condone US corporations paying the Chinese to take our poisonous junk, the blame lies largely on the government of China for allowing this to happen. They do it to their own people with their own spew, and it's sad that they're willing to add our spew to the mix. It's unfortunate that life is apparently so cheap in China. Until they take a more protective stance on their own people and environment, I'm afraid there will always be countries eager to send them their refuse.
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My favorite place for old junk - where else can you find old computers, industrial waste, and biowaste (I am NOT kidding on that last one) all in one stop?
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Move along.
sulli
RTFJ.
There's probably a huge market in recycled computer materials, especially with the enormous surplus of junk that exists today.
This could be a boon to the Chinese economy, if it's done properly. A company sets up a factory where workers are properly trained and equipped to safely take apart computer junk and separate the useful leftovers from the true crud. Whatever can be resold, is, whatever can't, is disposed of properly -- and with no intrinsic value remaining, people won't be encouraged to pick through the scraps and inhale fumes.
All you need are mob connections.
The terms 'first world', 'second world' and 'third world' came from Cold War times. The 'First World' defined all those countries that were capitalist, the 'Second World' all those that were communist, and the 'Third World' were countries that were neither, thanks to negligable markets etc.
So.. China is in the Second World, not the Third!
mogorific carpentry experiments
Amen.
People should think of this analogy: You're walking down the sidewalk, and you come to a fence with a big mean doberman behind it. You stick your fingers through the bars of the fence and he bites you.
Whose fault is it? Sure the doberman is bad and dangerous. But you could have avoided it. You're the one the stuck your fingers in there.
If you didn't know dobermans were dangerous, you do now. So if you do it again, you've really got no one to blame but yourself.
Sure the big bad first world is mean and dangerous just like the doberman. Sure maybe it should feel guilty for that. But if you keep buying it's toxic junk and making yourself sick with it, here's a solution: STOP DOING IT.
It's hard to feel sorry for people that keep making the same mistake over and over.
And don't give me anything about their hurting economy, being forced to work under such conditions, etc. etc. Last time I opened my history book, there were Chinese people before there were computers. Somehow they managed to get by without our toxic garbage. Clearly it's possible.
One of the many things I hate. thingsihate.org
We're Recycling.
sulli
RTFJ.
So you're saying that this is all a lie?
I don't know about you, but my servers run on the power of cotton candy and happy thoughts. -Anonymous Coward
Having recently been IN China, I'll play the learned-something-about-it card. The Chinese government is not dumb. Corrupt and authoritarian, probably. What they will do is set up their society (cause in the government has a lot of power to construct society to its liking) to capitalize on cheap labor like this and drive your precious employment offshore. And you ain't safe just by being a geek, either - the presence of people inhaling noxious fumes for $1.50 a day drives down the wages of those inhaling donuts in front of a computer. And when that's done, they'll set the terms of trade so that your razors cost $10.50. SO even if you're naive enough to persist in the it-ain't-my-fault tack, you might want to think about the consequences.
Allright, now to respond to your lamer responses in kind (to make sure I get modded down):
You're too tough to be moved, eh? Cause it's always someone else's fault, and they're always trying to stick the blame squarely on you pgrote. It's not enough for a guy just to want to eat Doritos and play XBox. I mean, what the hell do they want? And then they turn around and call good ol' pgrote cold hearted!
We got a word for you in American English:
Pissant.
One of the reasons I am so pro-Lycoris is that the distro takes that very stance. Why confuse the beginning Linux user with a myriad of apps, most of which are redundant, when you can provide the best email program, the best browser, the best Tetris clone game, etc. etc.? While I can question some of their choices, I can see where this approach is best for their target audience. And hey, the more expert users can ADD to the installed apps! What a concept!
Because it is a KDE-centric distro, Lycoris' ability to function on computers degrades with less powerful processors. The suggested minimum processor speed/type is a 300MHz Pentium II. I suspect that with a lot of the eyecandy turned off it should be fine on a 233MHz Pentium MMX or better.
This does nothing for older machines, though. What is needed is a lightweight graphical distro that can make low end Pentia and 486en useful. The recent issue of Linux Journal has an interesting article by Marcel Gagne suggesting the kind of apps that would work in such a lightweight distro.
I don't know the first thing about putting together a distribution, but I am looking to learn. I have been riding this particular hobbyhorse for years now but nobody's done anything about it. People are either compiling ultra-tight distros for bootdisks and whatnot or making monster distros for bleeding edge computers. No middle ground. It is this middle ground that can make the kind of machines hitting these landfills in China usable again.
There are kids in Pacoima and the South Bronx and the Southside of Chicago and Oaktown who could use these computers. The companies upgrading their boxen are throwing perfectly useful machines out or sending them to fly-by-night "Recyclers" who instead ship them to the 3rd world. When companies donate instead of recycling, MS gets on their case about licensing. The refurbishers get static from MS about licensing. The underpriveleged kids who need computers at home go without.
A good, lightweight Linux distro could change all this. It's time to create one.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
At what point in the chain do we hand everything off to a central supplier who sells it out of the country?
That's a good question. It seems unlikely that this old junk is being diverted from landfills. I'm fairly certain that the stuff I put in my trash can gets transferred straight to a landfill with no post-processing at all. In the US, labor is too expensive to even try to remove the recylables from the garbage, much less to try and separate out toxic waste to ship to third world countries.
Clearly, whomever is selling this junk to China is somehow getting volume shipments of old computer gear for dirt cheap prices. Or even getting paid to haul it off. I know that Boulder runs a 'hard to recycle' program where for a not-so-minimal fee you can drop off old computers to have them properly disposed of. I've dumped some broken stuff off there, and had that nagging feeling that maybe I was being a sucker and paying to have my stuff dumped in a landfill. How would I tell? Think for a while about how expensive it would be to recycle computer parts in the US. The EPA and OSHA requirements would be brutal. Does anybody know of a place that is actually, for a fact, recycling computer parts in the States? If not, where is the recycling happening?
Back to the vendors selling junk to China, where could you get large volumes of outdated computer equipment? You could buy it at surplus auctions and such. But you know the Chinese aren't paying much for the junk, and you have to get it over there. Trying to buy anything, even junk, at US prices and sell it at Chinese prices and make a profit would be next to impossible. You might be able to get some stuff for free, by offering to haul it away. But what if you could get people to pay you to haul it away. And then get the Chinese to pay you again to take it away from you. You could make out like a bandit! And let me tell you, post-Enron, it's not hard to imagine somebody crooked enough to pull this off. And the best part is, the more heart-breaking stories like this the appear in the media the more you can get people to pay to "properly dispose" of their computer gear. I think maybe I'll start sticking with the "put it in the attic" disposal method for now.
"For money, people have made a mess of this good farming village"
A starving village is a good village? Is it a rule in journalism that editors know nothing of economics?
Watching Cowboy Bebop in my jammies, eating a bowl of Shreddies.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The third world is called the third world for good reason. Their governments suck.
AFAIK, the term "Third World" comes from the US-USSR cold war with global influence being one of the main goals of both powers. There were the First and Second Worlds (the order depends on who was talking - each would say that they were First) with groups such as NATO, Warsaw Pact, etc. Members of each World would be fully backed by their corresponding super-power.
Then there were the outside nations that found it profitable to not be aligned either way, making them the Third World. India is an example often cited in high school classrooms.
Once the USSR fell apart there was no real comparison between the two "worlds", but the moniker was already entrenched and already associated with foriegn-aid dependent governments.
On another note, you say: Just look at the godawful mess in Africa. You'd think the continent where man grew from would be able to get it right after a few thousand years.
Last I heard, lots of civilizations used Ancient Egypt as the definition of successful (Egypt is in Africa) wrt monuments, knowledge centers, governmental organization, large populace, longevity, etc. (especially when compared to previous attempts). Basically, things had been working within your "few thousand years" timeframe. It's just lately that things are messed up, in general.
This is not my sig.
What should one do when a hard drive doesn't reliably hold data or stops spinning?
I always just chuck it in the trash, sometimes I take the time to beat it with a hammer just to see the insides and "quality control" the casing. I will say that Western Digital drives seem to hold up much more than any others I've smashed.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
Where? The United States of America? Have you ever heard of the INS and the Coast Guard? Part of their jobs - paid for by the American taxpayer - is precisely to keep poor foreigners out.
So I ask again, where?
Let's not forget the automobile situation in the third world. Cars there tend to burn much dirtier, and run on diesel or (!!) leaded gasoline. European manufacturers export cars to Africa if they fail emissions tests in the EU. This is not recycling, precisely, but a way of dumping old or faulty technology on countries at such a discount that they will still buy it.
Not to belittle the specter of human suffering, but where can I get my hands on some of this free hardware? I want to set up a Linux server for my home, but I haven't got the cash to go out and buy some cheap hardware.
I figure there are a lot of perfectly-working Pentium I (or II) class machines being "recycled" to these third world countries. Is there somewhere I can go and just nab one?
[PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
The problem with pollution is that it's costs are not internalized, that is, the polluter pushes the cost of the pollution onto other people involuntarily. Dumping electronics in China is not the same as the US polluting China if China 1) is not being forced to accept the garbage (ie it is voluntary) and 2) if China has correct information about the cost of accepting the garbage (health risks etc). From the BBC article it appears that the Chinese people did wilfully accept the garbage and the are aware of the dangers, yet they still opt to engage in the activity. That's their decision. If there are others around them (perhaps children) that are not voluntarily enganing in the activity and they are taking on some of the costs, then that is a sad situation, but not our fault.
If these people, regardless of their economic circumstance, choose to engage in this voluntary work then it still must be a worthwhile endeavor for them. People still mine ore, work on nuclear reactors, go skydiving, eat fast food, take their kids skiing, go rock climbing, etc. while knowing the risks. Who's to say they cannot engage in these behaviors?
These people do not have to accept the garbage. They are indicating that the benefits of doing such are greater than the costs. (If you try to make the argument that they are so poor that this is all they can do, try to figure out how the world economy survived the past 5000 years without cleaning electronics).
My trash goes in a landfill about 2 miles from where I live. Everything but tires go there. We internalize all the costs to our waste disposal.
Why do so many PCs need to be scrapped if not for the godawful software with the unquenchable lust for hardware. Why is the PC you bought 3.56 nanominutes ago too slow already? WTF is that about?
Last year I got rid of a 9 year old PC that was a workhorse but eventually ran out of upgrade capability even for my humble needs. Today I have 5 PC's in my house. The newest one is 4 years old the oldest is 8. And frankly if you can't get the job done on one of them then you are doing the wrong job. They are Caldera (or SuSE I keep going back and forth) and Win95OSR2. And that's it.
PCs get recycled because people get suckered into thinking that 1.6Ghz, a half Gig of RAM and 2 120GB drives and a 48X CDRW to replace that old crappy 32X is gonna make their lives perfect. And you know what? If you did everything the Gods-o-Redmond told you, you really would have to upgrade forever. I mean what's Office 2000 without more compute power than ran NORAD? Nothing, it's crap that's what.
So if you feel bad for the poor orphans chained to their soldering irons then think of Bill (I have more money than the entire fucking nation of Peru) Gates and the scourge that is his software.
The world doesn't have a population problem, it has a resource problem. Given unlimited resources you could really pack them onto the planet!
We don't have unlimited resources though so controlling the burn rate is important.
The thing is that you would have to knock off hundreds of millions of Chinese to make even a slight dent in the global resource consumption problem.
On the other hand, selectively culling a few million of the most wealthy Americans will realise HUGE progress towards getting resource utilization down to sustainable levels!
Just something to keep in mind when you are talking about trying to deal with over-population issues. . .
I'd just sit it on the curb and in the morning it would be gone. That's how I dispose of all of my obsolete hardware.
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball
Thank you for all your great responses. I do intend to change myself more soon. I am reusing things, I have been recycling for the past 10 years or so- which accounts for about 60% of my trash.
I currently live in the south, so unfortunately these people down here have no idea what public transportation is. Busses don't go anywhere, subways are a myth, and everyone owns 1-3 cars (hell I know someone who has 9 cars to themself at the moment). But thankfully the north will be a little better to me in that respect.
All of your coments have been very helpful, and I just wanted to say thanks to those who have been constructive.
In case anyone else didn't think of it, another thing that can make you feel better (or disgusted with people who go to parks and rivers), is to join a river clean-up activity, or adopt a highway program. It helps keep our tributaries and roadways cleaner. Thanks again, I think I will start acting, instead of just thinking.
Tibbon
tibbon.com
Here in Austin, we have the Goodwill Computer Works store. Not only is it a great place to get rid of your old stuff, but an awesome place to acquire some more! Do I really need a $25.00 486/25 laptop? No, but Linux will run great on that!
...of course, installation will take a lot of floppies...
Have you tried Biking in the city? I am thinking of getting one. Since I don't live there yet, I don't really know how one will fare with people and traffic, and how long I can use it in the year because of weather conditions.
Tibbon
tibbon.com
I'm pretty sure COSI takes donations for old computer stuff and lets kids take them apart so they can see how they work. If you don't know what COSI is its like that simpsons episode where they go to the Knowledgeum. If you don't know what simpsons is, what are you doing on slashdot?
Just for the record:
1) I don't use razors, so I don't care how much they cost.
2) I don't own an Xbox, but would like one.
3) Pissant is a perfect word for an obsolete government such as China's.
I guess I shouldn't set up a web server for a small web page on a computer with dual 600 watt power supplies to be green eh... j/k
Tibbon
tibbon.com
Preface to this - Cambridge has a lot of great veggie food places, as does Allston and Brighton and Watertown and Slummer^H^H^H^H^H^H^HSomerville - you won't want for meatless food around here.
However, while eating veggie food is quite healthy and good for you (provided you get enough protein through soy), it's not quite as good for the environment as you'd think.
The farther up the food chain you go, the more protein gets concentrated with a higher energy yield, thus requiring less intake per calorie.
However, yes, it is better for your body (not to avoid the protein, but to avoid the fat), and there are the economic and social issues, too. Just don't confuse the whole thing by saying vegetarianism is perfect for the environment.
-T
You do if you expect to handle a severe slashdotting!*
*Yes, I know handling a good slashdotting has nothing to do with power supplies. It has to do with how much video ram you have. And I've got lots.
I just pre-viewed this post and I think my brain is running off of potato power... screw work, It's GUINESS TIME!
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
In addition to taking donated equipment and recycling hazardous components like monitors and laptop batteries, they also provide free training, and a program to provide free PCs running Mandrake to people in the community.
Mike Graham
http://www.mikegraham.net
http//injoke.org -- Culling The Interesting
this kind of flaming liberal horseshit would be posted by Taco. Screw the Chinese.
Complex electronics (that are broken + unrepairable) are very difficult to recycle as there are many, many components. Simple things such as paper, aluminum, and plastics get recycled frequently because it is cheap to do, easy, and actually can make some money.
Computers, on the other hand, are mostly a burden and require a great deal of effort, much done by hand, in order to recycle effectively. It is rather disappointing that better programs are not being devised to deal with this problem as the amount of electronic waste in increasing rapidly. Small shops in a 3rd world country will not be able to handle such waste for too long before it simply becomes too much.
This sort of waste disposal for materials that are dogeared as unusable is very widespread and extends to many other areas than electronics...and will become a major issue in the near future as current methods of disposal are not goint to be effective forever.
[quote]WHY are there people trying to support themselves with a marginal existence in places where there are not enough resources to support them?[/quote] 'Cause they were born there.
deserve's got nothing to do with it...
Why is there mercury in computer parts? I thought this was strange? Can anyone explain why it is there, and why it is necessary to build computers with mercury?
-- -- Warning. Do not stare directly at the sun.
Maybe if people would stop takin' old monitors out to th' field and shootin' 'em full o' lead, things would be diff'rent
-- Never hit a man with glasses. Hit him with a baseball bat.
a friend of mine runs a business that collects old monitors and circuit boards and send them overseas, where they are dismantled/refurbished/whatever. I think they go to Asia or someplace like that.
It's a great deal, because he gets paid to get rid of them, and the foreigners get paid to dispose of them. Sort of like an international Goodwill. It's a nice feeling to know that you can help someone who wouldn't otherwise have a job, and it also helps keep the environment clean over here.
Thanks folks. I'll be in town all week.
Evil is the money of root.
Read this part of the article:
"recycling computers from the US and Europe."
That's right kids, the problem is caused by all of us.
Aren't there [safe?] computer disposal facilities here in the states that take scrap computer components in order to remove gold and silver from the circuit boards? It seems a more logical alternative than what is happening now.
This issue has come up on slashdot and other places. Here's an earlier article on the same topic in the Guardian The Silicon Valley Toxics coalition has extensive information about the problem. Some congresspeople are also attempting to deal with it. What it comes down to is that old computers are just like other environmental hazzards: the actual cost of goods we buy does not reflect their environmental impact. Gas is cheap these days so it's inexpesnive to drive around in gass guzzling SUVs. But the price of the gas does not reflect the environmental impact of the emissions. Here too, the price of a new computer does not reflect the cost of disposing of it in a safe way. Eventually this will change and there will be an extra $20 charge for computers and similar electronic items that will cover the cost to the government of disposing of the waste when it reaches end of life.
Mr. Heinlein, so glad to see you're alive and posting on Slashdot.
I was expecting you to have a Futurama joke for that last line, relating to the episode with the giant garbage ball..
Hehe "The internet? Back in my time, we just used it to download porn."
What time is it/will be over there? Check with my iPhone app!
If you are from europe and got still working equipment (monitors, computers above 386, printers, etc) or that need some small repair, please contact me. We use it for schools and villages in romania to promote computer literacy. Thank you !
root()uiorean.cluj.astral.ro
Although this is a serious problem, regular users in the US and Europe shouldn't feel responsible for this crisis. They have agents in the US and Europe who purchase this computer rubble to ship over there, it's not like we load it all onto a barge ourselves and dump it on their land. Granted, in the future, we probably will pay higher prices for proper disposal, the primary reason it has become such a humanitarian issue is because of the workshops who import and promote the business, not because of first-world negligence.
~Ben
I blame the robotics industry. Weren't they supposed to be making little metal men who would do all of the drudge labor that people shouldn't/couldn't do? It's the year 2002, and not only do I want my Flying Car, I want a robot out there cleaning up my messes, and turning them into more consumer goods for me. (Cheaper and better than any amount of manual labor from the 3rd world... I might add)
Not to get too uptight about it, but WTF is my robot servant? "I'm Waiting..."
I don't throw away computer parts, unless they are truley broken. I have a local "food chain" of computer equipment. Replaced parts from my computers are recycled into my lesser boxen until I hit the end of that line. Then they go to a good friend of mine who uses them to upgrade his equipment. He uses his old equipment to rebuild and upgrade other people's computers so they have something to do basic word processing on, or surf the Net.
There is a huge, but low-margin, market for older, functional computers.
I also reduce waste by only replacing what needs replacing. I've had the same keyboard for twelve years now (old IBM "iron surfboard") and I have no intention of replacing it. I've also broken my habbit of regular upgrades. Now I only upgrade when I have a demonstrated need. Hell, my LAN server is an old Pentium 233 and I'm not planning to replace it, ever.
Boobies never hurt anyone. - Sherry Glaser.
The other thing is that in "less-developed" societies, the only way to safeguard your old age (read - over 30) is to have lots of children to support you - with high infant mortality, early death, infectious disease rampant and no insurance/pension/whatever, it's the only way to plan ahead.
Does it work? No...
China has had a population problem for many, many years (i.e. before western society as we know it) -partly cultural, but mostly human nature. The first world would be just as bad if we weren't so rich - now we can afford insurance, social security, emergency healthcare (even in those countries so backward that they don't have a publicly-funded health service (although ours is falling apart - discussion for another time)) so we can get away with an average of 2.4 kids or whatever and just slowly increase our population. But the other thing is that we have so much land (again, because we're rich is the fundamentals of it - North America did not always belong to the rifle-wielding USA'ers (nee Britons when it was still a colonial empire)). Overall, we have lots of land, little need for it, and can pay poor overcrowded 9 year old sweatshop workers a pittance because our artificial economy has created capitalism - a system of relative wealth where they need to be poor so that we can be rich.
This idea was invented by Shampoo.
underneath the first photo recycling computers from the US and Europe ...
Time to get off your typical European High Horse...
What did the airbag do? I guess you were involved in a car accident?
What time is it/will be over there? Check with my iPhone app!
Try and give secondhand PCs to charity and they don't want them because they can't afford to pay the high price demanded for Windows and Office (even if they can find Win95/Office95, or whatever the machine is capable of running, in the shops). The Windows licence is normally "tied" to the hardware for an OEM machine,so this would be OK, but most corporations with a large turnover of PCs will be on a Select agreement with M$, so the software is rented.
The upshot is that the donor firm has to pay an extra $500 or whatever for licences to get the charity to take the old stuff away, or just heaves the whole lot into a skip. Accountants aren't usually swayed by nice warm feelings inside ;-)
One solution could be for M$ to offer registered charities free or very cheap licensing. A more elegant solution would be to give the charity a Linux distro (what the hell, push the boat out and spend $30 on a proper manual and CDs) and show them how to use it, or where else they can learn. So, what is the relative market share of Linux and OpenOffice among the voluntary sector? I suspect they're all Windows junkies like the rest of the world :-(
Who are we to look down on them?
Who are "them"? Chinese people or the people that makes money buying garbage (may be american companies).
How do you think the US became the economic hegemon it was in the 1940s?
As a result of World War II.
The problem is those ideals and standards are a product of our economic superiority.
Germany has very superior environmental standards.
Superior economic power doesn't imply better environmental standards.
No one told the US that it wasn't ok to commit our attrocities. Why are we any different?
United States generated big quantities of garbage.
But they never bought the garbage of other countries.
A exchange existed between garbage and progress.
That is not the case of China. They change garbage for money that they will spend in American products.
So that the process that gived America so much economic power repeats the conditions have to be the same ones.
It is not the case.
-= If you fight Dragons long enough, you will become a Dragon =-
Your post was interesting. Not insightful, but interesting. However, since I have chosen to opt-out of Slashdot's moderation round-robin I will instead post this reply (which, BTW, uses 100% recycled electrons, so you can feel good reading it).
Do you believe in the concept of the noble savage? For example, many Americans believe that the Native Americans ("indigenous peoples") were "in harmony with their environment" and that the (savage) white man destroyed that and forced them to live on reservations. Well, that's half-right... but do you know which half?
Also, note that the European mentality during the "age of exploration" was very similar, and many of the "primitive" tribes found by the Spanish/Dutch/English/French were seen as "noble savages."
Technologically advanced civilizations often look at "primitive" societies and believe that the primitive societies are "doing it right" because they can make a living without all the technology (and harsh chemicals, factories, etc). The mistake many people make is that they assume that if the "noble savages" had these options they would not use them, since they are (and want to be) "one with nature."
With reference to the Native Americans, many of their rituals and culture were designed to promote the "one with nature" idea. I would imagine this was more of a survival instinct in itself; they realized that if they raped the land they would eventually run out of land (and food).
If you ask an anthropologist you will discover that human beings have been raping the environment for as long as we have existed. Humans have never been "in harmony" with nature. Nomadic peoples would live in an area for a short while and dump their refuse in a certain location. Then, it would pile up, and they would move to another location -- this was easy because the number of people in a nomadic group was relatively small. Since the refuse was basically natural it would (after a year or more) be decomposed enough where the nomads would leave their trash heap at their current location and move back. Thus, many archeological digs will find multiple layers of refuse from nomadic peoples. Remember, though, that at the time, the refuse was 100% organic so it was "safe" to come back later because any "dangerous" materials would have decomposed.
Now, along comes agriculture and now some humans decide to stop their nomadic tendencies. Now the problem is you can't easily move when you generate waste. So you put the waste far away from your home and don't worry about it. As societies grew, the waste disposal became a serious problem, as it had to be dumped far away as to not affect the local population, but at the same time the population and city were expanding... and running into the waste disposal locations. At the same time, the waste being generated was becoming more and more toxic, as it was less and less organic matter.
You might be surprised to know that there is a speces of ants that also does something like this (I can't remember their name at the moment). The ants, which IIRC are in South America, can completely destroy the area where they live, and when they are done, they move on to another area. This is the true nature of plants and animals. The only thing to keep us (or the ants) in check is other predators. When those don't exist, there is nothing to stop us, as natural creatures, from destroying our environment and ourselves.
At least humans have the advantage of intelligence, so theoretically we could stop ourselves. But realize that most people aren't willing to go hungry and die just to save the environment -- a human life is incredibly short in the "big picture" of our environment. On those who have the luxury to worry about the environment will want to protect it... everyone else is just trying to make it until tomorrow.
Judging from the number of seperated retreads I see on the side of the road.
Yesterday's cars were unsafe by modern standards in many ways, I'd guess in a world of no seatbelts, no airbags, no ABS, etc., the crappy tires weren't your biggest worry.
--
Benjamin Coates
You have to admit that the BBC photographs speak a thousand words. BAN has color photos from China here.
________________
All my sig are fjdklafjkldafjkldafdaklf
Ship it to me! ... I will take ... anything related to electronics...
:-)
Methinks Pyrosz must have a mailing address in China.
Is this how they deliever dell's in China? Click here for image or here for the whole story. Compliments to Boston.com :)
NO! NO! Please don't mod me, I'm too young to die a troll. *click* Oh the pain, the pain...
You obviously have not been to the third world. When I was in Nepal I witnessed welding sweatshops where kids sit around welding items wearing fake raybans.
No one has the knowledge or the resources to do what you propose. Nor would any of the companies who are dumping this cruft over there give two shites about doing it properly. They just send a boat back full of the stuff we are not legally allowed to get rid of , with a small check attached to the helm. Some lucky Chinese residents get the stash, without 'consent' and then act like hunter/gatherers trying to peel materials out of the stuff where they can get the money for a can of coke by selling the copper or whatever.
I think your idea is good. Why don't you go over there and try and start somthing like that? I'm serious, you would do a world of good.
Last December, the elementary school that I was teaching at arrived at a huge dilemma as to what to do with their old computers and monitors. The machines were P100 but ran pretty well. We called around various charities, and they did not want the material. They said it was too old and useless (obviously they had no visions of linux servers dancing in their head). We called organizations that recycle old technology to poor countries, and they too scoffed at our goods. For months we called loads of organizations and nobody wanted the comps and monitors... so what did we do?? We threw them in the dumpster. We called the city, town, etc. and they had NO clue on how to dispose of this garbage. It was a damn shame...
100% Insightful
These people are suffering. Doesn't that mean anything to you?
Suffering according to your viewpoint. Whether people are suffering due to economic depressions, repressive leadership, poor living conditions, a bad hair day, or the fact that they work with carcinogens, is irrelvant.
If you look at all the world's problems as if everyone can have a nice cushy life you're either stupid or naive. Think about this: if every single person in the world suddenly got $10,000,000 cash (other than an immediate jump in inflation), the poverty line would likewise jump by an equivalent amount.
Suffering is not defined as being poor. Nor is it defined as having "poor living conditions" or a "crummy job" (by what standards?). May I remind you that the world is not a utopia? Are these people suffering? I might think so... but only because I imagine myself in that position, and compare that to my current position, and I would not want to be scavenging computer corpses for parts.
If you want to spend your hard earned money to help give these people a leg up on life, go right ahead. But what about all the other people who need a leg up too? Are you going to help them too? What exactly would your criteria be for people who "need our help?"
Are you afraid you'll end up "like them?" Do you think if you make your little payments that you'll be spared that "suffering?"
</flamebait>
There's nothing like not telling people that they're handling something that can kill them to kill them.
This crap belongs at the bottom of a disused mine.
Who the [expletive deleted] ships this [expletive deleted] out there? Might as well send them land mines. Then they can build dance floors out of 'em.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Remember, your answer must be in the form of an Ask Slashdot.
Face it. The people or corporations with power and money want to stay that way. Smile at the people and wave, tell them how much you care, and get some good photos showing how much you love children, love the people love America, love the world... *** MEMO *** *** C O N F I D E N T I A L *** 1. Ship returned recyclables to "recycling plant" in third world country. 2. Increase sale of cigarettes & ddt to third world countries. 3. Dump toxics in CompanyOwnedLand, USA, near unsuspecting town. Make sure it has lots of kids. 4. Payoff FDA and some other government agencies. 5. Treat senator to dinner. Surprise with really expensive gifts. 6. Oh yeah, make sure to overstate profits and understate expenses. 7. Misuse employee retirement funds. 8. Try not to get caught. *** DESTROY MEMO AFTER READING *** Folks, hate to break it to you, the same stuff is happening same as ever. The packaging is just prettier (?), less noticeable (?), whatever. Cry over the Chinas. Just realize we're all just a bunch of Chinas. We're poisoning them. We're poisoning ourselves. Do your best to make a difference but you'll never get everyone or every corporation or every government to sign up to make a difference at the same time. If you cut yourself repeatedly with a blade in one hand while trying to stop the bleeding with your other hand, eventually you bleed to death. What we need is nuclear annihilation. That ought to do the trick.
p.mon
let someone else do it!! i just get my father to bring it to his work where they deal with large amounts of computer waste (school board,) and they usually get rid of it for me, not sure how tho,,, Reece,
Think about it...these are OLD computers. I've got an IBM 386 that has a cast-iron case. I bet there's some lead in there, both on all the cards, the hard drive, the power supply, and so on. They are probably taking the total amount of lead per machine...not just in the case, or any one part.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Here at my place of business (which shall remain nameless) Old monitors tend to find there way to the roof, only to "accidently" fall over the edge. IMHO this is the only way to dispose of worthless monitors, and other office equipment for that matter including (but not limited to) fax machines, bowling balls, large light bulbs, watermelons, kegs, ... The sound of a monitor hitting pavement at a high rate of speed is a pleasure that is unsurpassed by few.
"Alcohol, cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems" -Homer Simpson
"The first way to start is simple... Don't throw this stuff into the trash."
Here's a suggestion: if China didn't want it, it'd stop doing it. They'll reap the problems of being loose with their environmental standards soon enough. Nothing you or I can say will do anything about it, they have to make their own mistakes. Once they do, they'll hopefully turn around and clean up their act.
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
Off the sixth story balcony?
The government in Canada tends to have a policy of upgrading its computers every 3 years. This "life cycle" finds computers that need repairs or are simply old, going to schools. Then what? I doubt the schools do anything but toss the computers to the dumpster. Some lucky machines may go home to students or teachers, and some unlucky ones may find their way into the ditches of China. Now, how are we going to live with that?
Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
Anyone know of a link to a place that would definitely handle the hazardous waste in a proper manner?
I know of a place. It's called "your local dump". You put your old parts in the car, you drive it over there, and they'll direct you to the hazardous waste pile (which is not as horrifying as it sounds, because most of it isn't hazardous until burned or placed in soil or drinking water). You can probably trust that it will not be going to China because the Chinese probably get their monitors in bulk from "hardware recycling companies", rather than by picking a monitor or two out of a bulk shipment of toxic materials including paint, motor oil, cleaning chemicals, old appliances, etc.
But then who will make the music you listen to, Err... the rest of Europe would... seeing as then the airways would be cleared of all that Back Street Boys, and Britney manufactured stuff you guys make by the bucketfull.
the shoes you wear? If you mean the Nike shoes... I don't wear them, but I'm sure the third world kid will still make them for 5 cents a day for me. Infact... I get the the price lowered as there is no middle man!
Who will rescue you from your world wars? Do you have any idea of the causes of the Second World War.... a major one was the decision of the USA not to involve itself in the League of Nations, which could have stopped Facism before it became strong.
Remember, arrogance is not a virtue!
P.S. Why does someone feel the need to go mad as soon as someone mentions Osama? You guys never had a problem with laughing at terrorism before 9/11 Just the other day I saw a Simpsons episode where people were celebrating Saint Patricks day and in it a British Restraunt is blown up. The action gets a chear from the crowd. This is obviously a weak joke based on the bombing of the UK by Northern Ireland terrorists, but noone objected to it in the USA, so why do you object now when someone has the same view about yourown terrorist problems.
As repulsive as they may be, sweatshop conditions are hardly worse than what things were like in America and Britain during the Industrial Revolution. Working in a factory, where there is at least _some_ form of corporate management and _some_ capacity to improve on its own conditions, is far better than the alternatives: earn money at makeshift factories (like the ones shown in this article), or earn a fraction of that money working on a farm.
Of course, as long as the Communists are in power in China, farming will remain unprofitable and the vast numbers of poor people will be forced to do things like this to scrape together a living.
The oldest ones (pre-P4) are urgently wanted in East Timor, where Indonesian Troops, Police, and their patsies TRASHED the East Timorese communities a few years back.
.............
There, it is quite a struggle to restore everything after Indonesia's Scorched-Earth Backhander to a people who just wanted to be free.
Regarding newer ones (P4s onwards) I'd suggest leaving them out at night in 'certain areas' that are over-flown by weird lights in the sky.
Its well known that there are little-blue-men from the stars who just rave over these, and go into raptures crying out: "Pentium! Pentium!", with goofy looks on their faces.
WHY?
I just can't say. Perhaps computers (even primitive ones built by primitive civilizations) are subject to prohibition, and there are Black-markets and Speakeasies devoted to computers smuggled in from off-planet?
.
(David Bowman, EVA near HUGE Monolithic Win-PC in orbit around Jupiter) "My God - its full of Malware!"
Its Daylight in the USA .... do YOU know where your dirty industries are?
Go on down to the Rio Grande some time and observe all the US owned really dirty industries located just over the border where Anti-Industrial Pollution Laws are really lax.
Of course, you'll just say "Its not my problem that the Mexicans are so slack"!
.
(David Bowman, EVA near HUGE Monolithic Win-PC in orbit around Jupiter) "My God - its full of Malware!"
Agreed.
...... the Tasmanian government is encouraging loggers to clear them out. .........
.........
...
In addition logging companies (with government approval) are harvesting the OLDEST and TALLEST trees in Tasmania. These are Australia's answer to America's Redwoods.
Instead of retaining these 'Giants' for Tourists, and future generations to enjoy
Meanwhile in Indonesia; rich bar_____s (above the law) are ripping hardwood out of Protected Rainforests, moving it into Malaya (where the law doesn't count because its not ripped illegally out of Malaysian forests) and loading it into ships bound for Europe and Australia where it with become luxury furniture.
And in Tibet; Chinese loggers are clearing the timber out (as they can do since they've got all the men with guns) and using it in China, or selling it on.
What's our planet's future? To become Dune?
.
(David Bowman, EVA near HUGE Monolithic Win-PC in orbit around Jupiter) "My God - its full of Malware!"
But then who will make the music you listen to, the shoes you wear? Who will rescue you from your world wars?
Like krazor84 said, we don't need none of your fucken Yankee shit, besides who is it who wants to start the next World War, guess who, he's sitting in your White House. What an irrational idiot. Sure, bomb Iraq, you have a full-scale war of the US vs. Islam. Not the West vs. Islam, no one in Europe feels like starting a war this time around, except maybe that Bush follower in England.
If you people weren't all so lazy and worthless, we wouldn't have all the money, nukes and good looking women.
And nukes are good how? As for women, Scandinavians are pretty hot, none of that American woman shit, just ask Lenny Kravitz.
Fuck you... whoever you are in whatever pathetic country you live in.
Hey, I feel the same way about you too, and the country you live in.
What time is it/will be over there? Check with my iPhone app!
My point was really just that we shouldn't have this "they deserve it" attitude against other humans, simply because they don't belong to the same fatherland.
Life is life. However I'm very schooled in history and the forces that drive the events in history. It's always been okay to kill the other guy but taboo to kill our own. We've used a number of tools to tell people it's okay, "terrorists", "pinko's", and all that jazz.
But I'm in the school of those who think this doesn't have to be the case. In order for us as a species to work together we need to shed those boundries, we need to care for all.
Still, I don't bother about worrying where the blame should go: doesn't matter.
Get your Unix fortune now!
The really funny thing is that I have .sig viewing disabled so I have no idea what these people have "expertise" in.
Discussing a joke always make it funnier.
This idea was invented by Shampoo.
I will have to say that I rather enjoyed your post. It was quite 'informative +1' if you want to think of it that way.
But seriously, you bring up some good points. Some of which are why I said, "how you think of indians (opps, native americans), of being. " Because it's kinda more of an idea that the truth, as you pointed out. Thanks again!
Tibbon
tibbon.com
Yes, of course two gods would be likely to solve the problem in the same way...
ME = 98 + New Splash Screen
What? Me? Worry?
Dang. Why'd I use ddt as an example?! Well.
THERE's something I didn't know--you're shocked, I know. Thanks for the 411. I read all your links.
Here's something I did know though:
It's a matter of the lesser of two devils*. Which devil kills fastest? Which is killing more people right now? Do the benefits "at acceptable levels" outweigh the malevolence?
More accurately stated: Do the financial gains of selling a lesser devil outweigh not selling?
Oh yeah. Let's sell it!
It's like cholorine. It's like MFP (maximum flouride protection). And home cleaning products. Ok, I guess I shouldn't drink the pool water. And well, you're right, I shouldn't use a whole tube of paste every time I brush. But damn I make a fine home cleaning products cocktail.
Don't gorge on too many bananas all in one sitting, you glutton. They'll kill you. 'In some studies using labratory animals, eating too many bananas has been known to cause cancer.' Oh, and watch out for hyper-emo-activists. They'll kill you too.
BOTTOM LINE: Within the lesser-devil cure lies the harm of a new ailment. It's time we make a better banana.
Then again, modern medical science can't even give me a cure for a virus. And I still have to pay the doc at the end of the visit. You think chemo would work?
Here was one of my favorite lines [interject: "It's not a movie, buddy.]:
"Population control advocates blamed DDT for increasing third world population. In the 1960s, World Health Organization authorities believed there was no alternative to the overpopulation problem but to assure than [sic] up to 40 percent of the children in poor nations would die of malaria. As an official of the Agency for International Development stated, "Rather dead than alive and riotously reproducing."
-- http://www.junkscience.com/ddtfaq.htm#ref2
Um... can I sign up? I'd sure like to riot right now...
And in the last link, did they have to knock U2's Bono?--I ask you THAT. Come on! Is no one sacred?
I appreciated The Washington Times honest reporting of Carson's book's "unintended consequences."
In the end, I'm buying what you're selling as stated in The Washington Times (3rd link): "Yet, if South Africa deserves prodigal status, so do the more than 400 prodigious scientific producers -- Nobel Prize winners, scientists and doctors -- who signed an open letter advocating DDT's use in malaria control. Part of the letter reads, 'At worst, there are small health risks, and very large benefits to DDT house spraying.' Used in such a manner, DDT constitutes an almost inconsequential threat to human health. And even the risk that it might be used improperly (and pose a potential hazard to some species) must be weighed against the terrible toll on humanity that malaria continues to take. The decision to abstain from using DDT for malaria control is a deadly one."
And now for the three biggest problems facing malaria nations: 1. Lack of responsible and stable government. 2. Money. 3. Education. 4. All their other big problems.
Still, the intent of my original message was to illustrate what still happens--the sale of harmful products to third world countries. Also standing, DDT like everyting else we cook-up has a dark side. Else you'd be drinking it with ice. [That's a hyperbole. It doesn't require comment.]
But don't hate Rachel Carson. As stated in her online biography at RachelCarson.org:
"Disturbed by the profligate use of synthetic chemical pesticides after World War II, Carson reluctantly changed her focus in order to warn the public about the long term effects of misusing pesticides. In Silent Spring (1962) she challenged the practices of agricultural scientists and the government, and called for a change in the way humankind viewed the natural world.
Carson was attacked by the chemical industry and some in government as an alarmist [BIG SURPRISE], but courageously spoke out to remind us that we are a vulnerable part of the natural world subject to the same damage as the rest of the ecosystem. Testifying before Congress in 1963, Carson called for new policies to protect human health and the environment.
Rachel Carson died in 1964 after a long battle against breast cancer. [You think maybe she ate too many bananas or had a thing for cleanser cocktails?]"
And now let's wrap it up.
Milton Bradley just put out a new game called FDA. Anyone want to play?
Natalie! Stop eating those DDT contaminated hot grits!
*The use of the word "devil" is used in a purely non-religious conotative sense.
Yes, I know I said 3 biggest problems and then put 4.
One last comment: Stop being anonymous and sign up or check out, you anonymous coward! [You know I'm joking, right? About the coward part anyway. After all you've no idea who I am.]
p.mon
I agree they have robots that asemble the stuff why not one's to disassemble it?With modren computer tech it sould be very possible to build a bot that can read IC numbers and remove the IC safely and cleanly and also recycle the lead in the solder to use in other products such as batteries or more solder BTW lead acid batteries are recycled at 95% of thew time now. Maybe something similair to the machine that recycles cars even. Also I to ask where is my flying car and my ticket to goto space and the space colonies? So far the 21st century has been a real big let down.