Slashdot Mirror
One Year After September 11
One year ago today, at 9:12 eastern, we posted
World Trade Towers and Pentagon Attacked amidst the events of that day. Since Slashdot is really just a discussion site, I felt the most appropriate way to handle this anniversary is to simply do just that. I hadn't read those stories since the day it happened, and I really am at a loss for words. But I'm sure many of you won't be. And thanks to OSDN for turning banner ads off for the day.
As America Remembers 9/11/2001, we must remember that we live in a country based on freedom. Those freedoms are being threatened right now because of America's reaction to 9/11, and we have to be careful about that.
:-)
So please, as you mourn, see your friends and family, or watch TV all day (which I hope you don't do), try to remember what it is that we're fighting for in the first place, ok?
Without those freedoms in tact.. there's nothing left to fight for.
I love you guys, tho, and I'm glad it wasn't any of you who were lost a year ago
Feel free to mark your calendar for the other months besides September.
January 28, (1986) The Challenger Accident
February 13, (2001) San Salvador, El Salvador 6.1 Earthquake
March 24, (1989) Exxon Valdez
March 28, (1979) 3 Mile Island
April 18, (1906) The San Francisco Earthquake
April 19, (1995) The Oklahoma City Bombing
April 14, (1912) The Titanic
May 6th (1937) The Hindenburg Disaster
June 6th, (1944) D-Day
July 25, (1956) The Andrea Doria sinking.
August 6, (1945) Hiroshima Bombed
August 16 - 28 (1992) Hurricane Andrew
October 8, 9, and 10, (1871) The Great Chicago Fire
October 17, (1989) Loma Prieta earthquake
October 23-29, (1929) Stock Market Crash
November 17-18, (1978) Jonestown
November 22, (1963) Kennedy Assaination
December (1984) Union Carbide Bhopal Disaster
December 7, (1941) Pearl Harbour
December 21, (1988) Pan Am Flight 103 Lockerbie bombing
However I'm glad you raised the point about the freedoms that have been lost. The US has become a little more like the non-free countries it is fighting with the government exploiting the opportunity to help hide its own inadequacies.
It's the one-up-manship of the various channels that gets to me. I remember flicking to the BBC coverage just after the second plane hit and seeing the first of the 'backdrops' with the smoking towers and the 'Sept 11 2001: Attack on America' line and thinking "there we go - branding the story already - who will be first to use the towers as the number 11 I wonder??"
/. did a great job in just getting the news out there. None of the hype, the gloss, the panic to fly presenters to stand in front of the ruins. Just simple stories to keep everyone up to date.
I think it is the speedy turnaround of these 'visuals' that is disconcerting. I'd much rather just have the video feed, and a guy in a studio saying 'holey shit' than a million glossy flaping flags with the towers in the background.
It really did feel a little too much like a Chris Morris stunt, a live edition of Brasseye.
I think
Lets us also mourn the freedoms lost to the average law abiding citizen around the world.
For that matter, they didn't run commercials for two or three days after the attacks.
Best Slashdot Co
So, it's a year later and still we don't know where Osama bin Laden is, it seems we've forgotten about Afghanistan and now Bush is getting ready to pre-emptively attack Iraq. From what I've read about Saddam Hussein he doesn't just sit around in one place either, so what happens when they can't find him?
:) And remember, opinions are like arseholes - we all are one. Err, have one ;)
What is it with all these stories coming out now about how Iraq could have nuclear weapons in like 30-40 seconds? Seriously though, a few months ago they were saying "2-3 years", now it's down to "6 months" or less. Are they making excuses to attack Iraq? Can't it be argued that the US is also a country with weapons of mass destruction and a warmongering leader?
It is a shame that civilians died in the terrorist attacks, but what about the civilians the US has killed in Afghanistan, like that wedding - they excuse it by saying some collateral damage is to be expeced. Why do they say that the 'terrorist' attacks were "cowardly"? It'd take a fairly brave and strong willed person to willingly fly themselves into a building. If they were cowardly they'd just talk about how they were going to attack America but do nothing about it.
What is it with removing all images of the WTC from movies etc in the last year?! It happened, we all know it happened. Removing the WTC from media I would think is an insult to the victims, it's as if they're saying that the buildings never existed.
Enough typing for me, flame away
However, I do think it is worth as this point reflecting on the foreign policy of sucessive US governments, that is the governments that have helped create Saddam's milirary might, backed the Talibans rise to power, backed Israel and other Pro-American Arab reigems which suppress their own people and finally (especially for us Brits) helped fund the IRA - who have been systimatically blowing up and killing people in both the UK and Ireland for well over 20 years.
George Bush stated that last year was when the world rose up to fight against terrorism. In fact, the world has been rising up and fighting terrorism for over 20 years and had it not been for September 11th, the US would still have not been involved.
I'm not using these points as an excuse for what the Taliban did. Any group that carries out such a thing are despicable - but I believe that the US Goverment should stand back and reflect all the possible concequences of what their policy of meddling in (and funding of) hardline groups of individuals in other countries could bring about.
I observed a minutes silence today, both for the innocent victims of September 11th and for the innocent victims of the future who will suffer when the US seeks to take revenge.
Avantslash - View Slashdot cleanly on your mobile phone.
After the initial attack, I was quite afraid that the US would start carpet bombing everybody they didn't like. Their attack on Afganistan shows just how determined you guys are, to extract a measure of vengance, which honestly, I don't blame at all.
One year on, I'm a bit less afraid, but not by a lot. I fear the US will drag the world into a big fucking war in the middle east we'll live to regret. The alternative I suppose is to not attack, and probably let some of these countries that sponser terrorism develop big arse weapons, which we'll regret too.
I dunno - a tough call, but I can't believe going to war is the only answer. The trouble is I don't know what the right answer is.
Alas gallinaceas de urbe bovis volo
The whole point of the matter is that no one deserves death, even those who take up arms against you.
You may not want to mourn the deaths of those who make war, but you should mourn there decision to make war in the first place.
It is the idea that people deserve death for there actions, no matter what those actions are, that has gotten us into this whole mess.
Honor those who fell on 9/11/2001 by striving for peace and harmony. Don't wish death even on your enemies. Pity them for their mis-guided rage, but don't wish death on them.
Whether you are christian, muslim, jew or otherwise, the common thread is that man does not determine who lives and dies, god does. Think about that.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Edward (Ted) R. Hennessy Jr. 1966-2001
belmont high class of 1984
Harvard class of 88 (Cum Laude)
Kellog School of Business 93 (MBA)(Computer Science award)
Partner and Principal Consultant, Emergence Consulting, Lincoln Ma.
Ted was a member of the Hasty Pudding and co-wrote "Whiskey
Business", their show in 1989.
He was the musical coordinator for the "Special-K Review" at Kellog during his
time there.
Wife Melanie (My Sister)
Children Rachel, 6 and Matthew, almost 4
Parents Edward and Geraldine (Big Ted and Gerry) Hennessy (Belmont)
Sisters Sue and Kathy
Nephews and Nieces Sharon, 10, Megan (my Daughter), 10, Jimmy, 8, Timmy, 4 and
Patrick, 18 Mos.
Ted was smart, funny, honest, friendly, bald and allergic to cats.
Ted played Guitar (and bass and 12 string). he had a small home recording
studio in his office where he would compose and record original music.
At family get togethers, he would gather the kids and play "Wild Thing" while
the kids sang along.
His and My Sister's favorite movie to watch together was "The Princess Bride"
He was a Geek. Just last week he setup DSL and 802.11b networking in his house.
He travelled 3 days a week, and to compensate for being away so much he devoted
all of his remaining time to his family.
every friday was date night with my sister.
every saturday was spent with the kids at a museum, aquarium, zoo or nature
park.
My Sister always dreamed of marrying Prince Charming and being a stay-at-home
mommy.
until one year ago today, all her dreams had come true.
The difference between Theory and Practice is greater in Practice than in Theory.
Like our buddy George W. is really looking out for the civil liberties of Americans. About a year ago, I got laid off and remember watching the CNN coverage as the second plane hit the WTC. The first thought that popped into my head was not about the horror of the event or even those who dies but rather a disturbed feeling that this is the start of a long erosion of everyone's rights.
Today, we have secret courts used to judge people, the FBI/CIA is allowed to perform surveillance on anyone and everyone and the key to the equation...no one is liable or reporting to freedom's biggest driver - us. Before we start bashing a political party, just understand that the old and true parties need to take the blame for the lack of freedom today.
I feel the need to do my normal routine today. Yes, it's the day we observe 9-11, but it should also be the day that we start to get back to normal lives. We're well on our way...but the economy is still affected, and the world is still mourning.
I'm not watching TV because I don't feel the need to relive such events. I don't want to see those images again. I would rather see stories about the future. I would rather see a story about what's going to be built in its place. And I would like to see a story about what the businesses are doing, where they moved to, and how they're making out. But I can't expect that from the coverage. For the five minutes I watched...I saw images of the towers falling again, I saw a story of the sorrow a woman felt. I don't want to see that stuff...I've seen it, and while I can't forget it, I don't want to relive it.
I'm sure that many people agree.
Some of you may have noticed the satellite photos of the smoke and "other stuff" that streamed south from Ground Zero. I live in Brooklyn and was right under that cloud. There was a fine white-grey powder that fell for about 20 minutes. I'm a stay-at-home Dad. I How can I explain the feeling when my kids asked why it was snowing. They were upset that it wasn't real snow and I wouldn't let them outside to play as I swept up. I just told them that it was dirt that had blown down from Manhattan. My wife works a whole 3 blocks from Ground Zero but was home taking my school-age daughter to her first day a school. I'll go to my grave remembering the feeling that I was sweeping out a crematoria in front of my house.
>for the future iraq victims >for everyone that has ever died through the >hands of injustice, opression, agression and >that old capitalist tool: imperialism.
Darnit, why does everyone on Slashdot feel like they always have to pile on the political rhetoric thick and high no matter what the occasion. Can't we just take one day to drop the Right vs. Left crap and mourn for the dead?
I'm ashamed at this site sometimes, especially looking back at many of the high scoring posts from 9/11 that basically said we got what we deserved. Those women and men, mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers, just trying to mind their own business and go to work did not deserve to die a fiery death that day. Nor do they deserve to have their rememberance used as a launching point for cheap political attacks.
Brian EllenbergerAfter 9/11 last year I heard a lot of families all saying the same thing. They all wanted just one more day with their deceased family members so they can let them know how much they were loved. So, I came to a decision. I'm not going to be glued to the television to see any memorial services. In fact, I decided that today I will not turn on the television or radio at all. I will not be attending any local memorial services either. In what will become a family tradition, I am having my whole family over tonight, because I have the time now, the time that so many families would just love to have back. I am going to spend the day appreciating and thanking God for what I have, rather than lamenting over what "we" have lost. If you have kids, turn off the tv and spend some quality time with them (seeing planes flying into buildings isn't really helping them anyway).I think we all should take this day to get in touch with our loved ones and let them know how we feel right now, because, if nothing else, 9/11 taught us that we could lose everything we love in a single moment.
I'm sure lots of people will do different things today as a reaction to what happened, but this is just my opinion. I'm not saying it's for everybody.
but I've had a rush of emotions daily ever since September 11th of last year, the images of the planes crashing into the towers, the billowing smoke of the pentagon, and the crater left in Pennsylvania have had a very lasting impression on me.
One thing that I don't like which has come out of this is how President Bush is pushing his agenda on regime change in Iraq. He has not stepped forward with any kind of reassurance which will lead me to believe that a regime change should be possible. Is President Bush not worried about "blowback", which is what happened when we helped the mujahadeen in Afghanistan when they were fighting the Russian army. I can easily see some major "blowback" happening to the United States in the coming future if we are not careful and think ahead.
Never Forget.
Life
Don't forget this when you go out and cry, "My civil rights are diminished...."
Life means, we have a right to be secure. It's the job of our govt. to enforce this right.
Liberty is second to life but above all others. What kind of liberty does a dead-man enjoy?
Happiness is third. I can't be that happy if I have to worry about terrorism killing a loved one and I'm not free (liberated).
All the other Civil Rights pale in comparison Life, liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. They are merely derived from these three. They're hardly even honorable mentions compared to these three, but I'll mention some of them, (Privacy, Speech, Association, Expression, Religion).
That's what I'm thinking about and I'm also reflecting on this question.
What am I willing to die for?
Not much as I'm a coward (though not anonymous).
I think, however, I'm willing to die for my family. Hopefully, I'll never have the chance to prove this.
With that said, I'm in awe at our armed servicemen. I find in inconceivable that they are willing to die for me. They deserve my greatest respect.
I was at work, wondering when my boss would get to the punchline.. "A plane crashed into the WTC.." "And??"
All of this memorial stuff is getting very overdone though...
Where were you on Jan 26, 2001? Do you remember any news that happened that day at all?
On that date, an earthquake hit India, leaving 13,000 people dead.
thirteen thousand. More than four times the amount killed in the World Trade Center. Think about that for a minute. How much coverage of it did you see on CNN? Maybe a day?
We've been hearing about this same story (Even giving it a catchy title) for an entire year now. How about a sense of perspective, folks?
Whoever stated that signature sizes should be limited to one hundred and twenty characters can just go ahead and kiss my
Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.
--Gandalf
As a Turkish citizen, the country which runs the peace force at Afghanistan now and the only true muslim (as I am not) ally doesn't play games with USA, I have saw those in 1 year, I was called those:
a) Towelhead
b) Go back to your cave, what you do on our (site,chat etc)
c) Nuke the mideast
d) You stink
Also protecting my rights and trying to tell the truth, I got banned in favour of americans.
any many more. As I don't consider myself muslim, and tell about my habits like beer drinking, bars etc... I really started to wonder what a "real" muslim would feel.
Bin Laden's plot was exactly that. To make people discriminated, to start a civilization war...
He... Susceeded...
RIP to 3000 people who died in WTC. RIP to millions of them if this evil plan works good (!). Don't forget, the suckers who crashed planes into WTC&Pentagon were uneducated ones, they were brainwashed to ignore the most powerful insict even, life. Why act like them?
Here's a quote from the transcript of the Larry King show on CNN:
KING: Do you agree, though, with the all-day coverage? Every network seems to be doing...
CRONKITE: No, I think we're going to get very weary, as tragic as are the stories, as heartrending as are the stories, as tear- jerking as are the stories, I think we're going to get very tired of hearing them over and over again over a period of two or three days or more. I think it's going to be overdone.
I agree with Walter...
Dude, if you're sick of hearing it, turn off CNN.
And just because you were in one of the towers doesn't mean you're the only one who has any right to grief. A lot of folks didn't make it out of the towers--or the Pentagon, for that matter. A lot of families will never be able to "move on."
Reflect on the fact that you were lucky a year ago so that you could have your hissyfit today. Then STFU and let people grieve for the folks who weren't so lucky.
!#@%*)anks for hanging up the phone, dear.
Destroying the environment? Pshaw... How many two mile thick clouds of smog that occlude 10% of the sun's light hang over the US? Oh that's right, it's over southeast asia, not the US... /.
The US may of been guilty of environmental disasters in the past, but US industries are amongst the cleanest in the world. You can't even kill yourself in your garage w/ a car that meets CURRENT emission standards (not the insane ones that some people would like to impose)
And what EXACTLY is wrong w/ genetically modified food? In the case of Argentina, it was a patent issue (which is the subject of a whole other argument and a whole other rant) and not the fact that it was genetically modified food...
Oops, wait, I'm at work... shouldn't be ranting on
Maxim: People cannot follow directions.
Increases in truth directly with the length of time spent explaining them
It's not about death as revenge or justice as far as I'm concerned, it's about death because there's literaelly nothing else to do with these people. There's no way that human law can possibly carry out a "just" punishment against these people no matter what you do.
We're talking about people who think it's OK to kill thousands of civillians and actively seek to do so. This isn't just "misguided," it's just plain wrong, but these people have all but been programmed to think this way.
What would we do with them? Could we capture them and try to "de-program" them? Not very likely. When you're cheering the death of thousands of unwitting civillians, I'm tempted to say you're too far gone for rehabilitation.
And what if it were possible? Would you enjoy living another 50-60 years knowing you did so utterly reprehensible and wrong? Normal people in the US prison system have to go through counseling when they take part in an execution, and that's just one person. How much counseling would you have to go through for 2000+?
The only other "alternative" is to lock them up in a cell somewhere for the rest of their lives. And as far as I'm concerned, captial punishment is more humane than life in prison with no chance of parole. Nothing but you, the four walls around you, and your thoughts.
These people are too far gone to even try to set straight. We'd be doing everybody a favor (including them) by killing them.
That in over 50 years since Israel was founded, their enemies still don't recognize them enough to even put them on their maps.
That Palestinian children are so brainwashed into hating Israel, scores of them have strapped bombs on themselves in order to blow themselves up as well as many Israeli citizens as they can take out.
That Iraq is able to scoff at international law, kicking out the U.N inspectors and rebuilding their weapons of mass destruction while the rest of the world(except the U.S.) turns a blind eye.
The really sad thing is that when all is said and done, Palestine will end up with no more than they were already promised before the start of the infitada. The Taliban is gone, Al-Qaeda has been scattered to the wind, and Iraq will undoubtedly see a regime change. All that vehement hatred directed toward the U.S. and Israel, and what is it going to get them? Nothing, if not less than what they had before.
That is truly sad.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
The whole point of the matter is that no one deserves death, even those who take up arms against you.
.Someone that by choices TARGETS innocent civilians for mass murder *deserves* to die.
It is so sad that you think this is true.
There are VERY few people in this world that I wish death upon. They didn't accidentally have a stray bullet hit someone.
If you wanted to debate WHO the actual killers were, fine. Maybe the mastermind is the only person left who should go down, some might say that anyone who EVER heard even a whisper of a possibility of the plot and did not act is subject to death as well.
But to make a broad, generalizatation that NO ONE deserves death is just too much.
I WILL WISH DEATH UPON THEM. I do NOT pity them beyond the sad choice that have made, and their crass indifference to the impact their childish rage has brought.
---"What did I say that sounded like 'Tell me about your day?'"---
Alright, this might annoy some people, but I'll go for it because I'm frankly sick of all this.
I live in New York. Last week I got an email from an old acquaintence ("Old aquaintance" translates to "sends me chain letters and won't stop") asking everyone on the list to pray for the dead and those who have lost. She also suggested that everyone drive with their headlights on today (Twin beams of light! Get it?!?). I normally ignore her, but on this one I snapped. Like a good portion of people in New York (I assume), the attacks affected me for two weeks. It was horrible to see the city shut down for a week - it seemed impossible. But life went on. I didn't lose anyone. I didn't didn't lose my job.
But people refused to let go - the media and politicians, specifically, as well as Americans who now use this as a way of explaining who we are as a nation. It's not denial on my part or anything - the actual attacks haven't affected me in any way, emotional or otherwise, in a little under a year.
The things that have affected me are things like the US PATRIOT act, Bush's rampant power-grab. So I emailed my friend back and told her to give $50 to the ACLU or the EFF. You want to help, fine, but prayer does absolutely nothing, and driving with your lights on is stupid. It's...painless. You're not pinching your budget, you're not donating time. Do something substantial.
I think our attitude (ok, mine) is summed up perfectly as this: We don't ever want to forget, but we don't want to be constantly reminded either.
It's not online yet but there's a wonderful article voicing this opinion much better than I can in this month's Harper's. I suggest you pick up a copy.
Triv
I wrote a comment to this, but to save space on this server I will only post a link to it. I don't agree with the above poster. But I will let the details of this be presented by my diary entry. Comments welcome here or there.
I believe that your efforts to "save space" on this server are really just a ploy to profit from this tragedy by drumming up hits for your own site, so I choose not to follow your link. I might look tomorrow.
Mike van Lammeren
It will challenge your head, your brain, and your mind.
OK, so don't ever watch any specials about Hiroshima or the Bombing of Dresden either (which both had a LOT more casualties, almost all civilian). Oh, but these were Americans that were killed, so this is different...
Yes it is different, but not for the asinine racist or bigoted reasons you so disingenuously imply.
First, the insinuation that it is somehow common for Americans to value American lives over other lives is false and disingenuous. Media coverage does not equal people's attitudes. When I lived in Germany, the national news emphesized which Germans had been killed in such and such an event, just as American media emphesizes which Americans are killed in such and such an event. Ditto for the time I spent in Japan, in the UK, in Hong Kong, and in France. The Media always emphesizes the number of 'locals' killed in dramatic events, irrespective of whether those 'locals' are Americans, French, Germans, Chinese, or Japanese.
However, none of the Germans I knew were any less horrified at the loss of non-German lives than they were with the German lives lost (remember the Concord?). Ditto for the UK, France, etc., and ditto for the United States
Secondly, you are equating battles which took place against already belligerent enemies engaged in all out, no-holds barred world war, versus unprovoked attacks (by any reasonable definition, all "blame the victim" nonsense aside) during peacetime, such as Pearl Harbor and most especially the events of 9/11. This doesn't make the destruction of Heroshima, Nagasaki (forgot about them, didn't you?), and Dresden any less tragic or terrible, but it does mean they were fudamentally different in their nature and their context than the events of 9/11.
So, while the civilian deaths of Heroshima and Dresden were terrible, that was war, waged against countries which were engaged in active hostilities against us and who, by the way, started the fucking thing to begin with. The World Trade Center, in contrast, was not. Equating the two, and drawing asinine conclusions like "Americans are bigots who care only for themselves" is fallicious both logically and ethically, and frankly you should be ashamed.
The vast majority of us (aside from some fringe elements, of which every country has its fair share I might add) are horrified whenever we see death, be it American or otherwise. Why do you think we give so much of our money to try and alleviate famine, pestilence, and the ravages of wars we aren't even involved in in so many distant lands. Because, irrespective of our media or our government's behavior, we as a people do care about human life and are saddened by human suffering, irrespective of whether the people affected are American or not.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
What kind of teacher extorts lunch money from all the kids in the school yard, while exerting small amounts of physical or psychological pressure on all the kids in the school yard, only to beat the crap out of a kid if they dare to try to throw a punch (and god help them if it lands one). What kind of teacher pays out money to another kid in the school yard who grabbed the personal belongings of another kid, and that kid also uses that money (directly or indirectly) to buy brass knuckles so that it can beat on said kid whenever it tries to get up to fight.
What kind of teacher cuts off the ability of a kid to buy lunch to the point of sever mental weakness and then installs a mind control device that has the kid willingly giving up 40% of his property and income until the kid revolts against the device and gives the teacher a small flick. Then when another kid attacks the previously controlled kid because of his weakened state, what kind of teacher reacts to this situation by selling needed supplies and giving a credit card to the attacking kid while selling brass knuckles to the disoriented kid in an attempt to make the teacher like them.
Really, this is a terrible analogy, but still no teacher I know acts this way. It sounds more like organized crime to me.
-no broken link
Terrorism is any act designed to cause fear or terror in a given group of people. It doesn't even have to be a violent motion, the simple act of waving a grenade arround in a crowd is an act of terrorism.
The WTC attacks were acts of terrorism. And unlike a single plane crashing in tokyo (which one would assume is not being piloted by terrorists) the WTC attacks involved 4 planes intentionaly flown off course.
As for millitary vs terrorism, even if you buy your definitions, what about all the civilians on the planes themselves? Or the civilians in the streets below? Are those also legitamte military targets?
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
I understand your point. I, too, think sometimes memorials can be overdone. There's one thing to remember here. Even though you were one of the ones most directly affected, you are not alone. Everyone in the country was affected by the loss of innocence that results from being attacked for the first time on the soil of the contiguous states. Thousands of people lost family members. Millions (probably) lost friends and neighbors and co-workers. That kind of pain does not go away lightly.
There are always going to be jerks who try to profit off the emotions of others. Live with it. That doesn't mean that the memorials are worthless. It's a milestone for us to examine how the event changed us and decide if we like what we find.
Ben
* FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigation.
Seems like you don't understand the meaning of the words "Freedom of Association". You are still allowed to associate with whoever you want. There's nothing wrong with the government monitoring you while you're doing so - your freedom is not threatened.
Mmmm.. Donuts
In my opinion, this is a bit myopic and shouldn't be given such a high score.
We're talking about people who think it's OK to kill thousands of civilians and actively seek to do so. This isn't just "misguided," it's just plain wrong, but these people have all but been programmed to think this way.
I'm not trying to start something nasty here, but there have been over a thousand Civilian deaths in Afganistan so far, and some reports say up to three thousand.
You keep mentioning "these people" and how they all deserve death for "cheering" others death... Do you, in retrospect, also deserve death for cheering their death? One has to be very careful not to become just what they are fighting agasint.
Not to mention, if the US armies sweep across the globe, killing all leaders that bush sees as "evil", we're going to make a lot more people hate us.. childen whos parents have died in anti-terrorist operations, civilians that got in the way.. etc. Its a perfect way to ensure future terrorists. Personally I'd like to know real reasons on why the USA is so hated by so many people across the globe, and don't tell me its becasue "they hate our freedom", its a wonder every time i see GWB say that with a straight face.
I think this whole issue is a Lot more complex than having a simple "kill them all" solution. If we are supposed to be the most advanced and cultured society in the history of the earth, i'm sure we can do better than that.
I may be modded down for this by some who think a second opinion is a bad thing, but i can't help but post this here. This is what i feel and i beleive its valid.
Seems to be the point of the poster was that Japan had a long history of agressive & atrocious behavior which stopped soon after some very firm and significant pressure was applied in the form of several megatons of explosives.
It's a good point to note: tit for tat leads to ongoing conflict, while massive retaliation generally gets the message across more succinctly and saves lives in the long run.
Frightening, yes, but historically accurate.
September 11 (1973) US-backed coup overturns democratically elected government in Chile, leading to thousands of deaths, tortures and "disappearances"
My father was there. He was listening to the radio as democratically elected Aliende prepared to defend his country with his life. Even knowing that he had no chance, he armed himself and stood in front of the seat of the govenrment to fend off the coup with his own hands.
Would Bush have done the same? Would any recent U.S.president?
If some foreign force invaded DC, would any recent president -- knowing it would be certain death -- have the cojones to deffend his nation? Or would he run and hide?
My parents were both in Brazil durring the U.S.-backed military dictatorship there. My father got a first-hand look at just how involved the U.S. was in that affair.
My father and I now work to change U.S. policy so that maybe someday the rest of the world won't have a reason to hate us. Patriotism is loving your country enough to see its faults -- and try and fix them.
t'nera semordnilap
- "We" (the giant corporate military industrial complex of the "west",
including the world bank, IMF, WTO, etc.) systematically oppress,
murder and enslave entire countries full of innocent people.
- We install our own dictatorships in these countries (e.g. Indonesia,
Iraq, etc.) while parcelling up their resources among 1st-world
megacorporations, many of which have larger operating budgets than
entire countries.
- We force these countries to accept "free trade", meaning we make
them remove all import tarriffs, and then flood their economy with
cheap products and staple foods. Just like when a Wal-Mart moves in
next door, the local artisans/farmers cannot compete, and they and
their children must give up the farm and move into the city to work
for subsistence wages under inhumane conditions in factories for
Gap, Nike, etc.
- Anyone who tries to resist this is called a "communist" (or maybe
now they'll be called an "Al Qaeda sympathizer") and is subject to
imprisonment, torture, and murder. These are people who've somehow
gotten the crazy idea that a country's natural resources might
actually be used to benefit its *own* citizens. They don't realize
that their lot in life is to shut up and be cheap labor.
- We force these countries to take out massive loans to buy our
imported goods--loans they will never be able to repay.
- In addition to providing the capital for the loans, U.S. taxpayers
money goes into "aid packages" for these now destitute countries.
The aid packages are earmarked for buying food and goods from
western megacorporations. This is another way in which the system
works to channel our money to the corporations.
- If anyone gets out of line, we don't have a problem using weapons of
mass distruction against their citizens (a million people have died
radiation-related deaths in Iraq since 1991 because we rained
thousands of tons of depleted uranium bombs and shells over the
whole southern half of the country). After all, making us
taxpayers support a massive military system (of historically
unprecented size) is another major way in which the system feeds our
money to the industrial complex.
- On 9/11, some assholes out there (we don't have the monopoly on
evil) manage to succeed in attacking the monetary system that rules
the world. Over 3000 "collateral" casualties also result.
- The response? Use this as a great excuse to (a) remove some more
civil liberties from us (an educated, free-thinking populace is the
*real* enemy of tyranny), and also (b) channel more of our money
into our military machine.
- Anyone who tries to point out any of the above is basically called a
traitor. After all, "you're either with us or against us". As if
even trying to understand what's going on is treasonous!
If you are intrigued by any of this and want to investigate for
yourself (don't believe me--I'm just regurgitating this stuff), you
might like to look at John Pilger's new book "The New Rulers of the
World", or any of his earlier stuff. Also, the copious writings of
Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, and even Gore Vidal are great places to
start.
If you are unwilling to open your eyes, you'll probably just call me a
"communist" or an "Al Queda sympathizer" (I am neither). While it
shouldn't be necessary, I nevertheless feel compelled to stress that I
do not condone the 9/11 attacks, nor do I think the people killed on
that day "deserved to die", or that the terrorists were justified in
doing it. I also think that it was counterproductive to their cause,
as all violence is. I just wish people would be willing to see that
we ourselves have been, and are again contemplating, waging extended
campaigns of violence in the world that dwarf the events of 9/11. We
still have a chance to change our ways.
The reason Japan has not had any agression since WWII is not the pounding they got, it is because of the MARSHAL PLAN.
Some history. After WWI, Germany was pounded into submission, millions killed, all infrastructure destroyed. Internaltional punishment was delt to them. They were oppressed. Germany was reviled, Their people hated world wide. Extremely horrible economic and emotional conditions.
Question: Did that prevent them from starting another war?
Answer: NO!
After WWII, The Marshal plan was implemented in both Germany and Japan. This plan prevented either from building an Army. But it did help both rebuild their economies, their industries, their schools and hospitals. The US and allies spent millions of dollars rebuilding Germany and Japan into modern, capable and respected countries. No oppression. No punishment.
Since then, neither has had any aggression of the type in WWII.
So, by your logic, Germany should have been stopped after WWI. But they weren't, were they. The difference? Rebuild them, respect them. Don't give them an emotional reason to go to war.
Now a question for you. If someone were to beat the crap out of you, a school yard bully (assuming you weren't the school yard bully). Would you sit and cower and pray he goes away, or would you plot vengence? Do you believe other people think any differently that you do on subjects like that?
Learn some history. Learn some psychology. Become a better person.
Peace be with you.
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
A year ago I was on a boat in the Al Jafad dry dock in Dubai, United Arab Emirates. We'd just gone up to the bridge to use the cell phone (better reception up there). One of the guys, Walt, was talking to his wife when she said that a plane had hit the world trade center. She had no other information, we just assumed some Cessna pilot got lost or flew too close, and we were not too worried. A few minutes later we went downstairs to the mess for dinner and turned on the TV. That's when we saw the second plane hit, and we knew we were in deep shit.
Quite frankly I was very worried about our safety. We stayed on the boat for about two days. The US consulate was closed, so there was no where for us to go to if we got in trouble. We sat for hours in the mess watching CNN with the sound off. We later found out that the sound was off because the government of the UAE was censoring the broadcast. This was a new experience to me, but not to the guys on the boat. I was outraged, but they would say "Mr. Mike, they do this to protect us. Obviously the people are telling lies or speaking bad about Islam, otherwise they would be allowed to speak." And they were serious. Luckily CNN was running text along the bottom of the screen, so we were able to get a decent idea of what was going on.
We saw on CNN the joyous celebrations all over the world, so when we did finally leave the boat I made sure I had a flare gun (I stole one from the bridge) and a 6 inch chefs knife from the kitchen with me, in addition to my usual pocketknives (a Bob Lum Spyderco and a Leatherman Side Clip). I also made sure that the other guys were armed with knives as well (mostly 4 inch Opinels). Non-citizens are not allowed to own/possess guns, stun guns, or pepper spray in the UAE, so knives were all we could carry legally to protect ourselves should the need arise.
It felt odd when we'd go out. Even before the attacks we stood out as we were all taller than the vast majority of the population and we were obviously foreigners, both in dress and face. For two months after the attacks, up until the time we went into Afganistan, people would come up to me on the street and ask if I was an American. At first I did not know what to say, so that first day I said I was a Texan. Most people did not know what a Texan was, but assumed I was not American, so they would then go on about how terrible the attacks were and there was an urgency when they spoke when they'd tell me that Islam was not the cause, that the men who did this were madmen. One very nice older Arabic man had been to Texas, and when I told him I was Texan he hugged me and cried, it was very touching. He and most people I met were outraged at the attacks, furious that men did it in the name of Islam, and worried that the US would destroy the world in retribution. Everyone asked if I knew anyone lost in the attacks, and asked about my family.
Of course, many people I met, including all of the Arabs on the boat with us, were convinced that it was an Israeli attack. As one crewman put it, "It is against Islam to murder innocents, therefore no Muslim could do this. It must be the Jews." I was shocked at this attitude but did not know how to respond to it. Later on when it became more clear that it was indeed Bin Laden's group, the same guys said, "It is too difficult, what they did. Only a nation could do this, not one man or a few men. It must have been Mossad or China, no Arab could plan this." This was kinda funny, because all the Arabs on the boat were lazy fucks, and I certainly could not see any of them planing a good meal let alone a simultaneous hijacking. However, this was not proof, yet they accepted it as such. They firmly believed that if they could not do it, then no other Arab could. This was an attitude that I would find not only on the boat but all over, and is one that still perplexes me.
When US troops went into Afganistan, I became real worried. No longer did people smile and stop me on the street to express their condolences over the attacks. Instead I got angry glares and scowls. I went back to carrying the flare gun and chefs knife in my backpack we I went out. Several people spat at me. Luckily nothing happened, although I did have one Afghani challenge me to a duel. He had a sword, which he had drawn, but I had just purchased a very large Pakastani meat cleaver. It weighs about 10 pounds and is huge. (I figured it'd be good for dressing game) So I took the cleaver out of my pack and said, "Ok." His sword was a crappy one, like one of those you'd see in a sharper image catalog for $40, so I wasn't too worried. I figured I'd whack him upside the head with the flat of the blade and knock some sense into him. A large crowd had gathered, and luckily nothing happened. We agreed to be friends even though our countries might not be. I tried to explain, and I think I did get through to him, that the US was not pissed at Afghanis, that we were after Bin Laden and the Taliban was protecting him. If the Taliban gave him up we'd leave Afghanistan alone. He did not like the Taliban, that's why he was in Dubai and not Kabul, but he had family back home and was worried. The whole situation got better a few days later when it was announced that the US was dropping food and supplies all over Afghanistan, but still the scowls and frowns remained.
After visiting the middle east, I realize how much better off most Americans are than the rest of the world. Especially in the stuff we take for granted, like freedom of religion and of the press. I was not allowed to hear certain things nor was I allowed to say anything bad or even remotely construed as being negative about the government in the UAE. Not just, "don't say that," but the police would come and take me away. The secret police are everywhere and you never know who is listening. My entertainment was censored. Books, newspapers, magazines, CDs, video games, and movies are all censored before they are allowed to be released (for example the whole subplot about the arab arms dealer in the brad Pit movie Spy Game was removed). I was not allowed to practice my religion. I was forbidden to bring a bible in to the country, or to wear a cross around my neck, and there are only about 4 or 5 churches in the entire country (and just try finding a taxi that'll drive you to one of them). I was not allowed to eat what I wanted, nor drink what I wanted. Not that I'm a big drinker or a big pork eater, but after a few months I really wanted to sit down, watch an American Football game, drink a beer, and eat a plate of bacon.
Anyway, now here I am a year later, back in the states. Every flight I've taken since last September I've been searched by hand, my luggage has been searched by hand, and once in Amsterdam our flight was delayed while they pulled out my luggage and made me go through it while a bunch of nervous guys with MP5s and Glocks watched. I gotta tell you, though, that all that did not make me feel safer, in fact it made me feel less safe. I can't help but think that a semi-determined terrorist/hijacker could still very easily get a weapon on board, but I, and most of the other passengers, would be completely disarmed as we are law-abiding, and this would make it much more difficult to stop the hijacking. A sharpened piece of glass, plastic, or stone will not be detected by any metal detector, but it would be a very effective cutting instrument.
So what am I doing a year later? Not much. I watched some of the ceremony in New York and Washington. Here at the office I've been listening to NPR all day. I took off early for lunch and went to a memorial service at my church. I'm usually not big on songs, mainly as my voice just sucks, but today we sang one I don't remember ever singing before. #437 in the Methodist hymnal, "This is My Song." I thought the words were very nice, and appropriate, and well, here they are.
This is My Song
Lyrics: Lloyd Stone
Music: Jean Sibelius
This is my song, O God of all the nations,
a song of peace for lands afar and mine.
This is my home, the country where my heart is;
here are my hopes, my dreams my holy shrine;
but other hearts in other lands are beating
with hopes and dreams as true and high as mine.
My country's skies are bluer than the ocean,
and sunlight beams on cloverleaf and pine;
but other lands have sunlight too, and clover,
and skies are everywhere as blue as mine.
O hear my song, thou God of all the Nations,
a song of peace for their land and for mine.
After work I plan on stopping by the indoor gun range and putting a lot of holes into a bin laden target (http://www.reloadbench.com/photo/obl8x11.jpg). I went to an outdoor range this past Saturday but didn't get to spend much time shooting. Then I'll go home, hug my family, call the ones I can't hug, maybe go get a beer with some friends.
-Gandalf23